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goroul
22-12-2009, 16:26
Hello all!

So my housemate is a good old die hard Eldar player and, not wanting to miss out on the opportunity to eat said Eldar with Genestealers in the confines of a dark n scary Space Hulk, I set out to draw some rules up for using them.

These arn't properly playtested yet, hopefully the New Year will see plenty of chances for that, so I would greatly appreciate any feedback and/or comments.

The list represents a Dire Avenger squad with an attatched Warlock, though the possibilities the other aspect warriors present may tempt me to do some more later. As a rough guess I'd say that 2 Avengers to one terminator is right with the Warlock/Exarch being straight Librarian/Sgt swaps, but let me know what you think!

Goroul

EDIT- Stiking Scorpion PDF in post #14
EDIT- Fire Dragon PDF in post #19

HaunterV
22-12-2009, 18:36
I can dig it.

grg3d
23-12-2009, 02:23
Nice however will they get heavy weapons?
Like a flamer, missle launcher, assult cannon (Eldar equlivent?)

goroul
23-12-2009, 16:34
I'm not sure about heavy weapons. To begin with having one or two differently armed special troopers is not a feature seen in the Aspect Warrior units.

Secondly the increased movement ability of the Eldar will (hopefully) alter the play style enough to make them less of a necessity as they are for Marine teams.

Finally I wanted the Exarch's role to be greater than the Sgt to make up for the lack of special weapons, hence the Shimershield and Bladestorm abilities.

That said other aspect warriors (such as Fire Dragons) present the opportunity to have whole Eldar teams armed with special weapons- but obviously the scenario would have to be tailored to suit.

It's certainly something interesting to look into, maybe I'll write up a mini campaign using the different Aspects when I get a proper chance to playtest these.

Goroul

Morty
09-02-2010, 08:47
Nice rules but i would drop the Exarch Down to 1d6+1 trather than 2d6 as his equipment MORE than makes up for his lack of combat dice (since stealers will only be rolling 2D6)

Morty
09-02-2010, 08:53
Also Concider giving them the option to Take a grav platform With a heavy weapon on it, ok it would be crewed by spuds but it would give them the 'firepower' to try blocking tatics. Also i think you should drop the Warlock to 1d6+1 Psyic weapon (as the libraian) and consider giving him a 'block' power rather than all atack powers or maby a pyikc flammer afect for the destuctor so he can help CC the stealers. Also I think gaining 'Parry' from his armour is a bit strange, but i can see where your coming from. I have used simler rules to this for eldar in Space hulk myself and i can say from exp that AP 5 is Extermly efective at basting a path and maby you should Reduce or even remove CP from the force as 2 powerful. posblly replacing it with the exarch and warlock generating a single CP each.
During playtesting i had a single squad munch it's way through the entire blip deck 3 times

wilsongrahams
09-02-2010, 15:49
Almost identical to what I have done for Dire Avengers and Warlocks except I hadn't done any Exarch wargear yet, and the warlock currently used same librarian powers until I got round to changing them.

I have also done Striking Scorpion and Fire Dragons, being the most useful and also being the only aspects I like the models to! (including the DA above).

Personally I'd just have the Shimmershield count as a Storm Shield and leave it at that - I'm all for simplicity see, for faster game play. Also I would allow a Warlock to give extra time on the player turn?

Concerning Morty's post, I too would just give say +1 CAB from the Armour rather than a parry and allow the parry for the witch blade as well as Psi points.

And 5 AP per model isn't too powerful when your Catapults aren't as good as Storm Bolters and you don't have heavy weapons to fall back on.

HaunterV
10-02-2010, 08:27
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239490

I know I've adopted them.

Wilson I want to see your Striking scorpion rules posted somewhere, I think I have some basics up but a collaboration makes it go faster

wilsongrahams
12-02-2010, 20:21
Sure, I'll add them to this post. I can't really show them as I have them cos they're in an Excel sheet and I can't create pdf's...

5AP's like all Eldar.
Striking Scorpion with Pistol and Chainsword - 2D6 in combat.
Striking Scorpion Exarch with Scorpion Claw, Pistol and Chainsword - 2D6+1 in combat.

Mandiblasters, Range 3, 1D6, 4+, Overwatch. Currently at 2AP to fire in own turn, or on overwatch within 3 sqaures instead of using the pistol.

Shuriken Pistol, Range 12, 1D6, 6+, Overwatch. 1 AP to fire and may be fired free with a move or turn.

I purposely have kept rules fairly simple, you may prefer to elaborate.

goroul
13-02-2010, 14:03
Thanks for all the feedback here guys.

I shall run through my thinking for the choices I've made and how I think they could be improved from your suggestions.

Grav Platform- Were'nt included because I wanted to try and change the play style of the Eldar to the marines and as Dire Avengers don't have access to them in 40K. That said I can see how, fluff wise, they might want one along. Perhaps they could be a scenario based upgrade?

Warlock Powers- I simply ran from the librarian powers and tried to fit / modify to suit the Eldar codex, Enhance being the obvious new one. I very much like the idea of have Destructor work as a flamer attack however, perhaps range 6, kills 3+ area affect, persistent?

Warlock Combat- I'm not sure why he is D6+2, D6+1 makes much more sense. I couldnt think of a good existing rule to represent his armour, parry seemed the best choice to reflect more the invulernable nature of rune armour defying the opponents attack than the Warlock actively parrying with his witchblade.

Shimmershield- With the Eldar lacking heavy weapons, and having the basic Dire Avengers being worse than your standard Terminator, the aim was to have the Exarch / Warlock become vital to the force, once lost the Avengers are in trouble. As such I wanted them to have skills / items that could buff the rest of the team. I understand that the shimmershield adds that extra complexity that I normally oppose, but I think it is necessary in this case. Admittedly it could use its own tokens to remind the player it is in affect.

Exarch Combat- The 2d6+1 ultimatley helps keep the Exarch alive long enough to keep the rest of his team alive, he only has 5 uses of the block abiltiy through his shimmershield, after that he has as much chance as the lighting claw terminator. The aim was to make it a risky move to let the Exarch fight too much as his death can cripple the team.

AP5- as wilsongrahams this is largelly to help the Eldar as they cant rely on their weaponry to the same extent Terminators can.

I like the Scorpion ideas, I dabled slightly a while ago, i'll see what I can pull up and edit around with your ideas and make another pdf we can all work from.

Would love to hear some more feedback

Goroul

Radium
13-02-2010, 14:37
Please correct the spelling for the Shimmershield to have a double 'm' :p.

I like the rules! I'll be trying them out some time.

goroul
13-02-2010, 17:49
Please correct the spelling for the Shimmershield to have a double 'm' :p

D'OH! Thanks for pointing that out ;)

Goroul

wilsongrahams
14-02-2010, 16:03
Can't wait for the pdf. Glad to help. Getting advice tends to help get a more balanced set and somehow just having someone else use the same sheets makes things feel more acceptable.

goroul
14-02-2010, 22:46
One rudimentry Striking Scorpion pdf. Essentially a combination of Wilsongrahams ideas posted above and a couple of other thoughts I'd had.

I was unsure if they should keep AP 5 or drop to 4, due to their heavier armour, but opted for AP5 and 2AP to move backwards.

Lets hear what you think!

Goroul

wilsongrahams
16-02-2010, 07:24
Very good. You have a talent for interesting special rules that aren't too complex that they take over the game.

Love the Hunting the Hunters idea. Very thematic if anything.

Just a note - The scorpions claw states it has a shuriken pistol as well as having it's own shooting profile. Which is intended to be used?

Also, for parry on the chainswords, I had omitted that personally, because that was the only bonus granted by a power sword in space hulk, and i had intended to add howling banshees later and didn't want to take anything away from them. For the same reason I allowed the heavy armour of a scorpion not to give them -1 CAB, as I wanted to leave this for lighter armoured aspects. Due to havign poor shooting compared to a termiantor I thought they could do without a penalty as even Bro Claudio with 2d6+1 tends to get through only a handful of combats.

As for Fire Dragons - all movement etc same as Scorpions.

Meltagun - 2AP to fire. 12 squares range. 1D6. 2+ to kill. Melta - 1AP to destroy an adjacent door (you can obviously shoot it as normal for 2AP and needing 2+). Can't move and fire in same actions, just like the heavy flamer etc.

I thought this would mean that on average a FD would be able to kill 2 stealers per turn, but with no ammo limit wasn't too powerful or too weak.

What do you think? Also, what are your thoughts on the above comments due to power swords etc? I didn't think chainswords should be equal as that's one thing I disliked about 1st ed space hulk add ons.

goroul
16-02-2010, 16:16
Thank you, I wanted to give the Scorpions some kind of rule that made them special, hunting the hunters seemed like a fun way to do it :)

In regards to the Exarch's equipment he has both a scorpion claw and a shuriken pistol so he may choose which one to fire or even fire with the claw and use the pistol for overwatch (as the claw cannot overwatch). I thought this would give him a little more felxibility and continue the theme of Eldar's Exarchs being the core of the team.

I really wasnt sure how to go with the regular scorpion's close assault abilities. On the one hand they cant be too good, on the other they really rely on combat to kill stealers.

I think that 2D6-1 parry provides a half decent middle ground, given that your average avenger / power armour marine will be d6-1 the 2d6-1 seemed right, the scorpions are more survivable / combat orientated yet still not a HUGE threat to the stealers. Whilst the parry ability simply keeps scorpion chainswords in line with other chainsword rules out there- see the power armoured marines / imperial guard sheets.

Still that said 2d6 could work, ultimately it needs playtesting.

I like your Fire Dragon ideas. I've attatched a basic mock up of some I did a while ago, again these arn't playtested at all, but I think somewhere between the two could work very well.

Goroul

EDIT- Fire Dragon pdf in post #19

wilsongrahams
17-02-2010, 18:32
Isn't the Scorpion Claw shooting attack just a shorter ranged version of a pistol though so not needed?

As for chainswords - I know most other sheets use the 1st ed version, I just disagree with it - they should not be better than a power sword, so I just allowed them to count as an extra weapon with no other special rules.

Respect to Scorpions, I understand that they rely more on close range, but that was where I thought their mandiblasters would come into play more - especially saving those command points to give a last blast when the stealers are closing on you - or even allow overwatch?

Your Fire Dragons sheet is spot on in my opinion - the Exarch Flamer and using meltabombs for doors is better than what I had come up with. I'd be tempted to cost them at 2ap to move backwards though due to the heavier armour and the fact that even a stealer pays double to go backwards.

HaunterV
17-02-2010, 18:48
I say swords give parry regardless. as for the mandiblasters i was thinking they give a temp advantage during the first round of combat as in when they 1st charge, after that they are useless. so when a SS charges he gets a +1 to all combat rolls for the 1st AP worth of combat. and only if he charges

goroul
17-02-2010, 23:18
Isn't the Scorpion Claw shooting attack just a shorter ranged version of a pistol though so not needed?

For some reason I thought it was a twin-linked pistol, but upon re-reading it is infact a shuriken catapult. Perhaps the Claw should be more like the Avengers weapon but without overwatch, so rng unlimited, 2d6, kill6+, jam


As for chainswords - I know most other sheets use the 1st ed version, I just disagree with it - they should not be better than a power sword, so I just allowed them to count as an extra weapon with no other special rules.

I can understand what you mean when you say they shouldnt be better than a powersword, that said I'd give just about all powersword users a further +1. So Banshees, for example, would be 2d6 parry rather than the 2d6-1 parryfor chainswords.


Respect to Scorpions, I understand that they rely more on close range, but that was where I thought their mandiblasters would come into play more - especially saving those command points to give a last blast when the stealers are closing on you - or even allow overwatch?

Sorry, not quite understanding. You think they should be more powerfull than the surrent, "rng 3, 1d6, kill 5+, overwatch, sustained fire"? I was thinking perhaps allowing them to fire for 1ap if the model moved forward in the same action, in affect, spending 2ap to fire the mandiblasters allows the scorpion to move forward one space for free in the same manner that spending 1AP to move forward allows the model to fire the pistol for free.

HaunterV also makes a good suggestion of changing them entirely to give a +1 in their first close assault action, but I think this would be underpowered as the scorpion would then only be 2d6 parry for one round of combat.

I agree 100% about making fire dragons 2ap to move backward and have attatched an ammended sheet.

Goroul

wilsongrahams
18-02-2010, 20:43
I'm going to wait until the weekend and try playtesting some various scorpion rules on my travel space hulk and will ghet back to you.

As for Banshees, my first thoughts are to have them move the same as Dire Avengers, have parry and +1, but have the mask give two benefits. The first is block - the psychic shock slowing your enemy, so they lose an attack, and the other was to allow them to use unused AP and CP like Psi points to modify their roll, meaning they can exert their will against the target through the mask. This also means that in their own turn when charging - when a mask is most useful - if they have AP left over after spending the AP to attack, then they may use them, kinda like a long paralysing scream before they actually do charge into the stealer. 2D6, parry, block and psi points would make the banshees a viable unit, because otherwise you are relying on a 6+ shooting, and whilst scorpions can be balanced with their mandiblasters a banshee needs to dominate in close combat. I won't be playtesting these rules this weekend as I will have enough to do already with 6 missions on each set of rules with the scorpions and fire dragons. I like to play through at least 6 times before agreeing it is right or at least possible to do the missions. This was how I did my power armoured marines anyway.

NightAngel
20-02-2010, 20:02
Great ideas. It would be interesting to see how warp spiders might work

goroul
21-02-2010, 13:49
Hmm Warp Sipders, I hadnt really given them any thought. I'm sure there is something really interesting that can be done with them, I'm just not sure how... lol

Will have a ponder, any existing ideas out there for them?

Goroul

wilsongrahams
21-02-2010, 14:23
I had a thought myself, more a 4+ area effect gun, and 3-5ap to teleport up to 12 squares? possibly 6? Hadn't set anything more in stone but I did think that the warp jump needed to be high ap cost otherwise they'd be too fast.

ps, still painting minis for my mini hulk so haven't played those games yet...

NightAngel
22-02-2010, 20:52
Area effect sounds good but I'd think they would kill on 3s and mabe teleport though walls not sure how it would work

wilsongrahams
23-02-2010, 16:13
For a weapon that has no ammo limit, I'd say a 4+ would work best, otherwise they become almost as powerful as the heavy flamer. Then again, they won't block the tiles for movement so 3+ may actually offset that difference. Plus of course, each warp spider is going to have to be the equivalent of several marines in my opinion. 4 points from the old Deathwing rules maybe?

Morty
28-03-2010, 10:02
Like you'r idea for the Fire dragons, thouf=ght the melta is discribed as a rapide firing weapon much like a normale gun (read some fluff books about guard hunting tiranids) so i peronaly would drop it to 1 ap to fire but increas it to 3+ to kill, TBH any beter than 3+ to kill is just to op in my opinion, i dont mind the flamer cuss at least that is a blocking attack.
As by the power sword in 1st ed it gave parry AND a +1 combat bonuse.
this may be worth revewing :)

Morty
28-03-2010, 10:08
As for banshie Mask's there used to be a rule in the Game that if certain models /equipment allowed models to auto win drawn combat or take a free 'shot' for whant of a beter discription eg greyknight's force halberd and halequins toxic fog spring to mind why not concider this for the banshe mask.....

Morty
28-03-2010, 10:12
As for warp spiders, i am sorry but there warp jump is very powerful i would concider making it 5ap (ie all his ap) but move with same facing anywhere within 12 squares counting through walls and blocked squares as the libraians smite power. or as 2 ap but moving to anywhere within 6 squares traced nomaly ignoring models. (the original Librain rules gave them a telaport power and it used the second set of rules. and i awaies found this power imba for skiping road blocaks of stealers)

wilsongrahams
29-03-2010, 00:33
The power sword's +1 bonus was replaced by giving that bonus to the sergeant regardless of weapon instead.

goroul
30-03-2010, 17:29
As for banshie Mask's there used to be a rule in the Game that if certain models /equipment allowed models to auto win drawn combat

Hmm, thats a thought I hadn't considered, be it the masks or something else it is a nice quick, simple rule. Now how to implement it... lol

Goroul

NightAngel
02-04-2010, 11:03
The victem could roll one less dice

Morty
09-04-2010, 19:54
Rep power swords Actualy the Power sword originaly gave anyone but a terminator a +2 bonuse AND a parry in CC, i't was droped for teminators cuss a +3 bonus (sarg+power Sword) cuss that was way 2 imba. also the sword can only hack/thrust in a terminators grip and they didnt whant any normal marine to get more than 2-7 in CC for game balance ishues, Speshalistes like the lightning claws and thunder hammer who sacraficed ranged attacks got 3-8 as there attack range with other affects as nesersery so they could be more efective while still making the game competative.
ALSO so non terminator/stealers could be more flexable it was originaly given that such models would roll D3 in CC and add weapon mods, given that most were armed with Basic weapon, Pistol and Knife that lead to a 3-5 combat range for 'basic' warrors and 4-6 for most non 'assault' speshalist's armed with pistol & power weapon with additional abilities for flavor and game affects (such as the power weapons parry) so dispite there low max they stood chance of combat results going there way but combat still being winable by stealers if 1 or more dice comes up a 6. for power fist and other resileant but not great the standard d6 roll was adopted for speed and simplisity.
Also the main rule is give a bonus/affect NEVER give a penalty parry is about as invasive as you wana get other wise EVERY time you invoke the rule you will be chalenged on the validety of it, which wastes turn time and might be fergoten by your aponent in the rush to get the turn done. Turst me this does happen. Every set of dice you have to re roll cuss 'you fergot that he has got shuch and shuch afecting you' is a wase of time.
THE dice must flow and each affect should be logical and SIMPLE.

Also dont forget grey knight who are the imba kngs of spacehulk sat out as follows
4 AP 1d6+2 CP per turn With redraw for Sargent
Terminator Armour
Storm bolter 2d6 neding 6 SF.
Halberd 1D6+1 (+2 Sargent), parry, Free Shot if draw 1d6 needing 4+
Psyker 20 forcepoints per marine. 40 for sargent.
powers Presience(1) Scan(1) Forcewall(2) Smite(3) telaport (2) (6 square range ignoring models, same facing after move)

if any non-charicter gets anyway as heavy hiting as this somthing has gone SERUSLY wrong with you race build.