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kongnico
30-12-2009, 19:03
Hi guys and girls

Experienced warhammer 40k player here, asking for some good advice :) Since i'm almost done with my masters thesis and as such find me with a bit of extra time on my hands, I want to start up a fantasy army. This is mostly rooted in the fact that most of the guys around here plays fantasy, we're just a measly 4-5 40k players :) So without further ado, my question:

What army should I start? That's a big question I know, so I'll pose 3 relevant issues for you to focus on:

1) Models available for competitive armies: Are all the models in the range available as plastic?

2) Ease of play: are any of the armies considered "easy" to play (think standard ultramarines vs eldar in 40k)

3) Ease of painting: I know that there's probably fewer models to paint for Warriors but still? Anything I missed here?

also if anyone want to dump the cookiecutter list of either kind, feel free :)

With high hopes of a few good answers

Nicolai

GuyLeCheval
30-12-2009, 19:14
Hi guys and girls

Experienced warhammer 40k player here, asking for some good advice :) Since i'm almost done with my masters thesis and as such find me with a bit of extra time on my hands, I want to start up a fantasy army. This is mostly rooted in the fact that most of the guys around here plays fantasy, we're just a measly 4-5 40k players :) So without further ado, my question:

What army should I start? That's a big question I know, so I'll pose 3 relevant issues for you to focus on:

1) Models available for competitive armies: Are all the models in the range available as plastic?

2) Ease of play: are any of the armies considered "easy" to play (think standard ultramarines vs eldar in 40k)

3) Ease of painting: I know that there's probably fewer models to paint for Warriors but still? Anything I missed here?

also if anyone want to dump the cookiecutter list of either kind, feel free :)

With high hopes of a few good answers

Nicolai

Most of your comments point me towards ogres. Almost everything except characters is plastic, but you can convert them, although thos models are very nice.

Ogres is quite straightforward and easy to play, but they don't go the 'point and click' route.

Their models are one of the best of the armies and yet they aren't difficult to paint.

However, you should know two things:
- They suck now this edition and:
- They are getting a new edition next year if the rumours are right.

Choose for yourself...

The SkaerKrow
30-12-2009, 19:14
1) The Empire has more plastic kits than any other army in Warhammer Fantasy. It isn't an entirely plastic range, but it's darn close.

2) Warriors of Chaos are perhaps more straightforward, but the Empire has the advantage of being competent in every facet of the game. They have infantry, cavalry, magic, artillery, missile troops and monsters. Few armies can boast that sort of variety.

3) You can paint up a decent Nuln force of the Empire by starting with black, picking out a couple of details in gold, and adding highlights as desired. Warriors of Chaos can be done quickly, but the models are very detailed and usually benefit from more time spent per figure.

Jind_Singh
30-12-2009, 19:41
Hello there! Well done on making it through the masters thesis - that was a time in my life I'd be happy to forget! The horrors of writting so many pages on soil contamination in the Birmingham aquifer was enough to send me loopy!

Empire v's Chaos

1) Model range:
EMPIRE has ALL ITS core, special, and rare available as plastic kits - means easy to build, tons of easy conversions (soooo easy to kit bash heads from 1 kit to another), and for the most part really cheap to buy (Greatswords being exception but the battalion box takes care of that). Painting is a dream and a nightmare - you have SOOO many provinces to choose from but the quarted paint scheme isnt everyones cup of tea
CHAOS does have a good selection of core/specials as plastic but does not support all the choices in the book yet - as of today there are many unreleased models for Chaos. Being chaos though the conversion potential is endless as theres 4 Gods to dedicate too, as well as undivided.
However - take a close look at the models as they are love/hate. I for one like the marader horseman and guys on foot but many hate them! if you dont like them your screwed as they make up 1/2 the battalian box - so you wont be getting good minis for your money!
You also need to be fairly creative as many of the options dont exist!

2) Army Selection
EMPIRE: Want to field a fully mounted army? GO FOR IT! Empire Knights class as core choices, the fast cav are special, and steam tanks are rare. Like guns? Welcome to Fantasys biggest gunline army, crossbows, handgunners, archers, fast cav all come with guns, 4 artiallry peices to chose from, and steam tank! Like infantary? Well go nuts! You got stacks! Character selction is awesome, with 4 differnt types to chose from (wizard, priest, general, Grand Master of the Knights), so many, mnay themes to pick from.
There is the nasty double steam tank/war alter build which crushes, but theres many builds you can take which allow you to compete but not be a total douche bag!!!
CHAOS - Potentially many themes to chose from, all maraduer army, all chaos warriors, a beast heavy army with trolls, dragon ogres, etc, many lords of different Gods, you can lead the army with deamon princes, with a dragon. You can have a mounted army with marader horseman as core and knights as special.
BUT you'll find most builds end up being pure mounted - they are the most effective. Chaos warriors are awesome but with just a 4" move they take their time getting to war - and being so expensive in points means you dont get many on the battlefield - so it meeans your enemy has more time to soften you up before you get to combat. To get around this the more succesful builds tend to be fully mounted.

3) Magic
EMPIRE - so much variation - you have many colleges of magic to chose from, in a tournment you can switch between lores for each game so you can tailor the magic to compensate for your weakness v's a particular army. Facing a army with high armour saves? Take lore of metal. Lots of monstors, chariots, cavalry? Take lore of beasts. Want to rain destruction down? Bring lore of fire. Each lore is great, but understand this - the battle magic used by the Empire is solid but not game breaking! It supports the army, you'll never destroy nations with your casting potential. The nice thing is though your warrior priests also chant prayers which work like bound spells, so your army is the only one were you can have combat character selction to lead, AND STILL maintain a magic defence + offence.
CHAOS - Deadly magic, 3 lores to chose from, Tzeentch is mind breakingly destructive! Just ask people who have seen their death star unit destroyed by the 'Gateway' spell! But you;ll find that really only 2 of the 3 really do damage, slaanesh is weaker.

4) SCALEABILITY
EMPIRE - My mate owns over 10,000 pts of Empire and its basically 3 completly unique armies of about 3000pts each (mounted, infantary, gunline). The Empire scales up nice - theres a great variation of troop selection.
Chaos - 5000pts would be the upper limit before you repeat the choices over and over.

Both armies work fine, personally I bought the Warriors book as soon as it came out, feel in love with it, and then realized it wasnt the one for me - I like armies which can be played in a varity of ways, and I love collecting (just ask me about the 10,000pts of Deamons of Chaos under the bed!), so I had to go for Empire - did I regret it?
By Sigmar NO!!!

AND theres talks that the new edition of Warhammer comes out in the summer of 2010 and the Empire will be in the starter box - WITH NEW KNIGHTS!!! This means you'll be able to enjoy new models for an already great looking army, you'll be able to buy the new rule book WITH NEW MODELS, weras Chaos means you'll have to buy the big expensive rule book and not enjoy the models!

So I do have bias for the Empire, but I do also like the Warriors - the choice is yours!

Hope this helps

Jind_Singh
30-12-2009, 19:44
1) The Empire has more plastic kits than any other army in Warhammer Fantasy. It isn't an entirely plastic range, but it's darn close.

Disagree - ALL core, special, and rare choices are 100% plastic.
Empire wizards, lords and heros are also plastic (2 battle wizards in plastic box, and 1 mounted character/on foot as plastic.

Yes the special characters are metal, and so are some of the other characters like warrior priests on foot, but that is acceptable as there will never be a situation were all characters are plastic!

So as far as an army goes, it's 100% plastic!

PeG
30-12-2009, 19:58
WoC will probably be a smaller army meaning fewer models to buy, assemble and paint. They can be really easy to paint and have some very nice models. If you then want to go back and paint some more details that is also possible.

Having said that empire offers more variation in terms of game play since they can handle all phases of the game.

Although WoC can have some very different builds mounted, infantry, monsters etc the main goal of almost all of these units is to move forward and get into close combat as fast as possible. Again on the positive side I think they have some of the best looking models in the game.

kongnico
30-12-2009, 20:05
Wow, what an awesome amount of answers! :)

the plastic thing kind of does it for me I think... I hate hate hate not having the right models for the job (no eldar seer council on jetbikes kinda broke me), so what remains for me to find out, is what kind of empire army I will play. I guess going for a 1k army to start out with is decent?

Jind_Singh
30-12-2009, 20:39
yeay!!! Welcome to the ranks of Sigmar's chosen!

I'd say whats your budget? If you can afford it the Empire Brigrade has it all in a box - 2 units of 20 state troops (swordsman please), 20 missile troops (10 handgunners, 10 crossbows please), 8 Knights, 5 fast cav (outriders please!), 10 greatswords. - It's a rocking start to an army!
Later I'd buy a battalion box which gives 20 more state troops - I'd use these to boost the orignal units of 20 to 30. 10 more missle troops - 5 more crossbows and 5 handgunners, you got a 20 strong unit of greatswords, and another unit of wonderful knights!
At this point your pretty much done!
Add some characters here and there, some warmachines as time goes on - solid!

The brigade box is $230 and has about 900 points of troops.
The battalion box is $130 and has about 550pts.

Both work out to averaging $1 per 4 points.

The advantage of buying 2 battalion boxes outright for $260 v's just brigade on it's own is you have same number of infantary, but 2 units of knights v's 1, but no fast cav unit (which is $30ish).

The choice is yours!!!!

grumbaki
30-12-2009, 20:44
Well then, welcome to the Empire!

Just a piece of warning: The Empire can do everything, but they make you think. They are the imperial guard of warahmmer, and often they have to go head to head with space marines.

Example:

Empire swordsman:
M-4 WS-4 BS-3 S-3 T-3 W-1 I-3 A-1 Ld-7 AS-4+

Chaos warrior:
M-4 WS-5 BS-3 S-4 T-4 W-1 I-4 A-2 Ld-8 AS-2+

So you can see the difference. So how does the Empire win? Well, through combined arms. We can shoot you, magic you, charge you or mob you. I only mention this because you mentioned ease of play. The Empire can be an easy army to play, but a good Empire army is one where you think about how your troops work together. Personally, I am a decent Empire player, and I find them much harder to use than my dwarfs, but they are much more fun to use as well.

For starting off, I'd say go with one of GW's boxed armies. I'd advise the Empire Brigade ($190 on US website)

* 8 knights
* 5 pistoliers/outriders
* 40 state troops
* 20 missile troops
* 10 great swords
* 1 cannon/mortar

This pretty much gives you a 1000 points army that has most of what you will need. In fact, using some quick math, it makes a fairly solid 1k list and is a great starting point. You can get a feel for how all of the elements of the army works, and when you are ready speclialize it a bit more (probably with some more artillery and mages/warrior priests).

Seville
30-12-2009, 21:18
Personally, I think WoC and Empire are the two coolest, most fun armies in Warhammer. Play style, theme, aesthetic; all very, very cool.

I would agree that Empire is the more diverse of the two armies in that you can make more varied builds and you do participate in all phases of the game. On the other hand, however, I disagree with the common internet assertion that WoC are one-dimensional. They are not. There are a ton of interesting options in the army book, and I think that most people who think WoC are "boring" are lacking in imagination or are WAAC types. There are tons of fun and viable builds for WoC (although, yes, it is true that most of them include chaos knights)

Having said that, I don't know which army you would find most "fun". The sheer number of models it is necessary to build and paint to play Empire is frankly daunting to me. Although I have upwards of 160 models myself in my "horde" WoC build... so maybe both have equal horde potential.

If I had to do it over again, I might choose Empire. And I couldn't really tell you why. I love WoC to death, but, there is something about Empire that is very appealing. Maybe it is because they are the most "human", or, "realistic" of the Fantasy armies. I also think it's because from an aesthetic standpoint, it would be a lot of fun to do a "bright" army as opposed to the dark and brooding paint schemes I often go with.

But that's just me. If you like to beat people over the head, and hard, and you want to dominate one phase of the game (the close combat phase), go with WoC.

GenerationTerrorist
30-12-2009, 23:48
I echo what Seville has said about WoC being "boring" - I do not find them boring to play at all. With stuff like Giants and Hell Cannons and Warshrines, you can have a totally mad and random game.

Yes, the prime motive of a WoC army is to smash skulls at close quarters, but that is just Chaos!

Plus the fact you can do a 2K Chaos army for 150-ish....Easier on the bank balance, IMHO :-) *Cheepskate me!*

Stumpy
30-12-2009, 23:57
WoC are way better than empire in the close combat phase.
WoC have way better magic than the empire (especially for the points cost).
WoC and empire are about even as far as leadership goes (this is fantasy, we giggle at the tiny impact of leadership in 40k).
Given that both armies cavalry are better than their infantry (thus looking at cavalry), they're around about the same speed/manouverability. WoC favour if anything due to getting access to multiple M7/8 units in every section (core, special, rare).
WoC are a cheaper army to build, despite the whole plastics thing. Cool characters and whatnot can be converted from the cheap (and awesome) chaos knights box, core stuff is about the same as empire, and the metal stuff is either unnecessary or can be scavanged from other races (such as chariots, you can yoink ones from other races depending on theme).
Empire have the advantage of variety, shooting and the raw coolness of being the underdog. They're also slightly more difficult to play.
In the end, get what you like. The cost difference will be negligable, you can win with either, they're both cool, go with whichever.

Jind_Singh
31-12-2009, 04:07
nah - Empire!
Nuff said! :):D

Poseidal
31-12-2009, 10:19
I play both, and would recommend both. Both are good for capturing the imagination and have some nice looking kits.

The SkaerKrow
31-12-2009, 13:30
Yes the special characters are metal, and so are some of the other characters like warrior priests on foot, but that is acceptable as there will never be a situation were all characters are plastic!

So as far as an army goes, it's 100% plastic!Wait, what? You can't acknowledge that the army has options that are not in plastic, and then turn around immediately and indicate that it is, in fact, completely plastic. One hundred percent leaves no room for exceptions! :p

Razakel
31-12-2009, 14:26
Indeed SkaerKrow.

In answer to the OP's main points:

#1: I do not believe all the models in any range are available in plastic. However I THINK Empire as one of the most popular armies (they are the relate able humans after all) has a majority plastic army.

#2: Comparatively I'd say Chaos are easier to play (smaller army, more powerful units and less diverse army list in some ways). However, having played both briefly (friends armies) I'd say Empire are more "fun" to play. Theres nothing like setting up a perfect detachment counter-charge on your opponents flank.

To expand on this point I'd say: Pick the army you like the "feel" of more. Your enjoyment is more important than which army will simply perform better. I've known people who started complete cheeseball armies to win tournaments with, and end up hating the playstyle so much they simply abandoned it and started a new army.

#3: I personally find Skin on all models a nightmare to paint, but thats not a problem for most people (partly why I play Dwarves). I believe Empire will be more difficult to paint, because the numerical factor. It is more difficult to paint a greater amount of models, it will tire you more easily, and will probably cost you more money. Assuming finances is a restriction, of course.

---

Empire have a far more diverse army. Their Wizards can choose any of the 8 Lore's of Magic giving you a powerful Magical presence on the field if you want it. Chaos are restricted far more in that sense, but their Magic is certainly no less powerful.

Empire can have a gunline, Chaos can't. They have few (no?) shooting options available. Empire are currently the only army able to field a TANK, and one of two armies with a Cannon in their main list. You can bring a very strong mixture of guns and swords to the battle if you want.

Empire wins out on diversity, they are the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none-army. You can fit in a mixture of melee, cavalry, ranged and magic. With reasonable generals and Priest type characters.

Make no mistake though, a single unit of Chaos Warriors could massacre an entire Empire army if given the chance, their small numbers shouldn't fool you. Each warrior they have is worth 3 of most other races, in some cases 5 or 6.

Their Magic is extremely powerful and they have some of the best magic items in the game. Plus you always have the "inevitability factor". "Muhaha we may be defeated but we'll return in a few more years with even more warriors!"

Anyway whatever you choose, good luck with your new army, both are excellent choices.

Jind_Singh
31-12-2009, 16:38
Wait, what? You can't acknowledge that the army has options that are not in plastic, and then turn around immediately and indicate that it is, in fact, completely plastic. One hundred percent leaves no room for exceptions! :p

lol, i mean that there will never be a situation were special characters or indeed most characters will ever go plastic - its not econmically viable as they only sell 1 model per army, so they never make their money back on the casting of plastic moulding. Plus you cant make good looking plastic special charaters - they need to be metal.

However, its the only army with an entire core, special, rare plastic selection, and it has plastic characters for lord/hero choices - you can very feasibly make an entire plastic army - There are 31 total choices for the Empire - including 6 special characters.
Of the 31, 24 are available as plastic or easily kit-bashed into plastic (warrior priests). 7 are metal minis, the 6 special characters and engineers (which incidentially can also be plastic as many assemble a steam tank with its turret hatch closed and use the engineer on a base)

So as far as a GW range goes the Empire pretty much is 100% plastic as special characters will never be plastic - it can't get anymore plasticay than it is!

Infact its more plastified than the flagship space marines - and thats saying something!