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View Full Version : New Dex: Tyranid WARRIORS sound really cool!



sayles78
30-12-2009, 20:04
Well, plenty of negativity flying around about fexes (some of it from me too!), but some things ARE looking good in new dex - Warriors being the pick of the bunch for me.

We can now have these bad boys as troops. Defo a bonus for me - I'e always loved these guys. The models are cool and, for me, they define the word Tyranid.

Improved base stats (although the cost is around the same as 4ed beefed up ones) - but now have 3 wounds and, if early reports are correct, better weapon options. They no longer have EW as a trade-off for the 3 wounds and I prefer it this way. They are now more resilient to small arms fire, but less resillient to Str8 and above weapons - as they should be. A Krak missile on target WOULD blow a warrior to bits. I understand it will encourage opposing armies to bring more str8 weapons, but at least thats less hvy bolters and flamers ripping through my (overpriced :o) Gants.

Also liking the new Deathspitter and heavy weapons for these guys.

Anybody else thinking along similar lines?

naloth
30-12-2009, 20:08
Not really. In the troops stealers look better for hth and the termagaunt/tervigon combo have many of the same ranged weapon options with the same BS and more shots.

If I were to use them as against Marines in CC I would field them with wings and behind a unit of cheap gargoyles.

toddznidz
30-12-2009, 20:08
You are insane. Without ID immunity, you could put 100 wounds on Warriors and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. They are still just melta\ML\p-fist\p-claw\bright-lance\ etc. meat.

No "Wound Allocation" anymore either.

EVERYTHING in the new Dex is nerfed but Trygons and their varients.

Vepr
30-12-2009, 20:15
I am withholding judgement until I can play around with them a bit. They could be interesting podded in our deployed as flankers with the new Tyrant ability. They also might be a nice addition to a conga line of save with gants - warriors - tervigon.

Lord Damocles
30-12-2009, 20:23
EVERYTHING in the new Dex is nerfed but Trygons and their varients.
*Basks in the singular glory of 40K General*

Fay_Redd
30-12-2009, 20:25
Tyranid players got to symbiotic (tyranid pun of sorts) with EW. It didnt make any sense then and it dosnt now. As the OP said, a krak missile on target would tear a warrior to shreds from the blast. Just keep using your tyranids without EW and make them work, yeeesh. lazy beech towels.

Vepr
30-12-2009, 20:32
Fortunately or unfortunately depending on how you look at it the nids appear to be the codex where they said. "You know we probably should stop handing out EW and frag grenades to everything..."

Really the only nid I think that should have EW is the Tyrant.

I am a bit more surprised that they have seemed to strip frag from everything but the fex. For a cc oriented army that is rather fragile due to lack of armor and very few invul saves I would expect that they would be a bit more generous with frag grenades.

LonelyPath
30-12-2009, 20:37
I do wish the "woe the nids are nerfed" pessimism would die down a little, but I am also glad I'm not alone in being excited over the new codex :)

The pestilent 1
30-12-2009, 21:05
Don't worry lads, the IG Storm troopers will keep them in line.

RampagingRavener
30-12-2009, 21:34
Anybody else thinking along similar lines?

Originally I was very pessimistic about Tyranid Warriors, since they've lost their ID-immunity, but I'm starting to think they actually could be pretty good. For one main reason, and that is the Alpha Warrior. A Warrior brood led by an HQ Alpha Warrior increased their WS to 6 and BS to 4, which is a pretty sizeable buff right off the mark, and that's before you get onto the frankly ridiculous killing potential the Alpha has; for just over 100 points, you get a T5, 3 wound, 3+ save model that on the charge throws out 5 WS6, S6, I6 attacks that ignore armour saves; and it reduces enemy models that strike at it to I1. Oh, and re-rolls any 1's to hit in close combat.

It doesn't cost anything to replace a standard Warrior's Devourer with Rending Claws either. So it could well be feasible to take a decent-sized brood with an attached Alpha and insert them behind enemy lines with a Spore Pod. They're pretty damn resistant to small arms fire and, yes, while there is always the risk of losing them to a Battle Cannon hit, you've now got a really dangerous unit now free to roam around the enemy's rear lines.

I'm not quite sure how useful shooting Warriors will be though. The Deathspitter nerf hits them pretty hard.

EDIT: Oh, hey, I wrote something semi-positive for my 2000'th post.

Eldoriath
30-12-2009, 21:34
About almost all nids not having assault grenade equivalents:
Sure, they are CC-oriented, but what do all of them have that can be compared to throwing a bunch of frags at the enemy? The larger creatures, yes I can see them having some sort of that stuff, but not the smaller one (and I'm ucertain of putting warriors here, they are a bordercase).

I'm looking forward to seeing the new 'dex and how it all fans out. Some stuff look/sound over-powered, but I have great hope in Robin Cruddace's work, he did a nice job with the IG 'dex (except making vendettas insanely cheap and making valkyries almost as insanely cheap).

squeekenator
30-12-2009, 22:19
Warriors are good. Yes, they die in one hit from a meltagun. Boo hoo. A Plague Marine dies in a single hit from a meltagun too, but you don't see people avoiding them like the plague. A single Warrior is not a huge investment. You can afford to lose them. And not every model in your opponent's army is armed with a S8+ gun. Most of their firepower is going to be in the form of average S rapid fire weapons, which the new Warriors laugh off thanks to their 3 wounds and 4+ saves. Warriors are no longer Elites choices for a reason. They aren't a valuable commodity that has to be preserved. The basic 30pt Warrior is actually pretty effective, getting 1.5 S4 hits per turn at range and being pretty strong up close. They're the Tyranid equivalent of the Tactical Marine - they're all-rounders who can soak up a lot of anti-infantry fire and do well at ranged or melee combat. Any krak missiles aimed at them are krak missiles that would have done much more damage to your monstrous creatures, and battle cannons, apart from being far less common than some people would lead you to believe, aren't actually that effective. Yes, you can lose a whole brood if you stand out of cover and bunch up and your opponent rolls a hit and doesn't get any 1s to wound. You can also lose a whole Tactical Squad if that happens, but you don't hear Marine players bitching about it.

Then we have the various weapons the Warriors can take. Deathspitters are awesome. A single Deathspitter-armed Warrior has the same firepower as 3 Fire Warriors for 5pts more and is tougher than them, is fearless, makes nearby psykers useless and kicks ass in assault. Barbed stranglers are S4 pinning pie plates for the cost of a plasma gun. If you want to assault, you can freely replace those devourers with rending claws, and, being Troops, your Hive Tyrant can make them outflank. A brood of 5 rending claw Warriors gets 20 WS5 S4 rending attacks re-rolling any 1s to hit on the charge. For an extra 5pts per model those attacks can be S5 I5. Warriors may not be super-special-awesome Troops that can compete with Ork Boyz or Plague Marines, but they're a lot better than people are giving them credit for.


EVERYTHING in the new Dex is nerfed but Trygons and their varients.

And I suppose Genestealers are weaker now that they're 2pts cheaper and get infiltrate for free? And of course Gargoyles are terrible now that their cost has been halved. Oh, and the same goes for Hormagaunts - they may have gone from the price of a Fire Warrior to a Slugga Boy, gained super-fleet and been given re-rolls on 1s to hit, but the old version was soooooo much better because it could leap. And Zoanthropes, Raveners and Biovores are all so much weaker now that they're been made better. I've really lost all faith in GW.

Vepr
30-12-2009, 22:21
I'm not quite sure how useful shooting Warriors will be though. The Deathspitter nerf hits them pretty hard.

EDIT: Oh, hey, I wrote something semi-positive for my 2000'th post.

I thought the deathspitters basically got turned into short range 3 shot heavy bolters? Is that not the case?

RampagingRavener
30-12-2009, 22:26
I thought the deathspitters basically got turned into short range 3 shot heavy bolters? Is that not the case?

Currently, a Warrior with Toxin Sacs and a Deathspitter gets a single st6 ap5 small blast, at 24" range. A new Warrior with Deathspitter loses a point of strength and 6" of range, and replaces the blast with three regular shots.

At a straight BS3 that isn't particularly impressive. With an Alpha Warrior boosting them to BS4 it gets a bit better, mind you, but I still don't rate it as anywhere near as good as the barrage of st6 templates they could put out before.

Vepr
30-12-2009, 22:40
Currently, a Warrior with Toxin Sacs and a Deathspitter gets a single st6 ap5 small blast, at 24" range. A new Warrior with Deathspitter loses a point of strength and 6" of range, and replaces the blast with three regular shots.

At a straight BS3 that isn't particularly impressive. With an Alpha Warrior boosting them to BS4 it gets a bit better, mind you, but I still don't rate it as anywhere near as good as the barrage of st6 templates they could put out before.

What is the AP on them now? I must have gotten weapons mixed up when I looked over the leak because of the strange names they used from the German translation. If they cost extra to field it sounds like another case of "Hey these are popular and effective... nerf!!!" :shifty: :p

Shadowfax
30-12-2009, 22:49
The new and improved Warriors are definitely one aspect of the codex I'm looking forward to trying out. Some people might think they're not new and improved enough, but I think they'll be solid. Woe betide anyone who takes them against Imperial Guard, though.


Currently, a Warrior with Toxin Sacs and a Deathspitter gets a single st6 ap5 small blast, at 24" range. A new Warrior with Deathspitter loses a point of strength and 6" of range, and replaces the blast with three regular shots.

At a straight BS3 that isn't particularly impressive. With an Alpha Warrior boosting them to BS4 it gets a bit better, mind you, but I still don't rate it as anywhere near as good as the barrage of st6 templates they could put out before.
They were never intended to be that good, though; it was a consequence of the changes to template weapons in the 5th edition rules. The 4th edition Deathspitters, as they were originally intended to function, were a pretty poor choice.

RampagingRavener
30-12-2009, 22:52
They remain AP5, just like before. If you want shooting Warriors then it is well worth it to upgrade their Devourers, but all in all it just seems far better to kit them out for close combat. What really irritates me about Warriors, though, is other than giving one a Venom Cannon or Barbed Strangler, you can't mix and match bioweapons. A brood armed with Boneswords and Scything Talons is really damn powerful in combat, but more expensive than Terminators and actually, potentially overkill. I can easily see such a brood wiping out whatever they're facing then being shot to ribbons. If you could mix weapons, you could just have one with Boneswords in the same way Tactical Squads can have a single Power Fist, but ah well.

Vepr
30-12-2009, 22:54
They remain AP5, just like before. If you want shooting Warriors then it is well worth it to upgrade their Devourers, but all in all it just seems far better to kit them out for close combat. What really irritates me about Warriors, though, is other than giving one a Venom Cannon or Barbed Strangler, you can't mix and match bioweapons. A brood armed with Boneswords and Scything Talons is really damn powerful in combat, but more expensive than Terminators and actually, potentially overkill. I can easily see such a brood wiping out whatever they're facing then being shot to ribbons. If you could mix weapons, you could just have one with Boneswords in the same way Tactical Squads can have a single Power Fist, but ah well.

I suppose the Alpha could be used in this roll. The Alpha does not require the same weapons if I remember right so he could be the CC punch for a shooting unit as they advance.

sayles78
30-12-2009, 22:54
Tyranid players got to symbiotic (tyranid pun of sorts) with EW. It didnt make any sense then and it dosnt now. As the OP said, a krak missile on target would tear a warrior to shreds from the blast. Just keep using your tyranids without EW and make them work, yeeesh. lazy beech towels.

Exactly. I would prefer them to have EW from a rules/game perspective, but the fact is: a Krak missile would and should splat em. It FEELS better to me. And I'm sure we'll all figure a way how to work around it.


A brood armed with Boneswords and Scything Talons is really damn powerful in combat, but more expensive than Terminators and actually, potentially overkill. I can easily see such a brood wiping out whatever they're facing then being shot to ribbons. If you could mix weapons, you could just have one with Boneswords in the same way Tactical Squads can have a single Power Fist, but ah well.

That never occurred to me, but is a damn good point. I always just had a couple of rending claws thrown in for SM's, but again, will have to have a re-think...

Da Black Gobbo
30-12-2009, 22:58
You are insane. Without ID immunity, you could put 100 wounds on Warriors and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. They are still just melta\ML\p-fist\p-claw\bright-lance\ etc. meat.

No "Wound Allocation" anymore either.

EVERYTHING in the new Dex is nerfed but Trygons and their varients.

Hahaha, i'm sorry i had to say it, this really made me laugh out loud, really really loud!

Now on topic, the new 'nid warriors seem to me quite efficent and seems they have lot's of interesting builds, (9 warriors with increased T, poison, and furious charge with an Alpha Warrior with them riding a pod sounds like termmie nids for me)

Shadowfax
30-12-2009, 23:04
Hahaha, i'm sorry i had to say it, this really made me laugh out loud, really really loud!

Now on topic, the new 'nid warriors seem to me quite efficent and seems they have lot's of interesting builds, (9 warriors with increased T, poison, and furious charge with an Alpha Warrior with them riding a pod sounds like termmie nids for me)
You can't increase their toughness. Also, that unit is over 500 points. :eek:

Vepr
30-12-2009, 23:08
Can the Alpha warrior pod in with them?

Shadowfax
30-12-2009, 23:11
Can a Space Marine IC drop pod in with a unit? Yeah, iirc? If so, then so could the Alpha.

RampagingRavener
30-12-2009, 23:12
Can the Alpha warrior pod in with them?

It's a regular Independent Character and can join and leave units as he likes, so I don't see why not. You can attach Space Marine characters to units and have them ride in the same Drop Pod so I don't see why the same wouldn't work with the Alpha Warrior.

EDIT: While I'm here, am I the only one seriously thinking about not bothering with a Hive Tyrant? A Tyrant will generally cost over 200 points, a pair of Tyrant Guard another 120 on top of that. The Alpha Warrior is a pretty dangerous Character and will only set you back round about 100 points.

Vaktathi
30-12-2009, 23:16
You can't increase their toughness. Also, that unit is over 500 points. :eek:

It's also 31 wounds with 30 BS4 S4 shots and 41 WS6 attacks on a charge. That's a very killy and shooty unit. It'll ruin most units very quickly.

Vepr
30-12-2009, 23:17
I would assume so but we know how that goes with a new dex. It sounds the same as space marine deployment but I don't know that we can take it for granted until we see the dex.

As far as the Tyrant he is very expensive especially with some guards which he will need but I am going to take one due to the other things they offer like the psych abilities and allowing units to outflank that normally would not be able to. Really I will probably end up taking a Tyrant with at least one guard and an Alpha attached to my shooting warriors.

Shadowfax
30-12-2009, 23:17
It's definitely viable, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see Hive Tyrants fade out in favour of Tervigons and Alphas. But, personally, the Hive Tyrant is my favourite thing in 40K, so I'll still field 'em.

Though I think the days of one stompy Tyrant + one flappy Tyrant are gone.


It's also 31 wounds with 30 BS4 S4 shots and 41 WS6 attacks on a charge. That's a very killy and shooty unit. It'll ruin most units very quickly.
I wouldn't be able to get over the battlecannon paranoia. Too much risk for me.

If I could somehow port that unit over to my WFB army, though...

Badger[Fr]
30-12-2009, 23:28
The Alpha Warrior is a pretty dangerous Character and will only set you back round about 100 points.
The Alpha Warrior is indeed awesome, but standard Warriors are not.

Yes, they are killy. Though, they still have to reach close combat before killing anything, which is easier said than done, as any Space Marine player who ever ran TLC Assault Terminators can tell you.

naloth
30-12-2009, 23:36
EDIT: While I'm here, am I the only one seriously thinking about not bothering with a Hive Tyrant? A Tyrant will generally cost over 200 points, a pair of Tyrant Guard another 120 on top of that. The Alpha Warrior is a pretty dangerous Character and will only set you back round about 100 points.

It will probably depend on the PV of the army, but yes that's my feeling too. The Alpha is a better deal and can join units (instead of paying for expensive Tyrant Guard).

The Hive Tyrant does have a lot of interesting army buffs and psychic abilities. I'll playtest a bit to see if he's worth building an army around.

nothere
30-12-2009, 23:41
It's also 31 wounds with 30 BS4 S4 shots and 41 WS6 attacks on a charge. That's a very killy and shooty unit. It'll ruin most units very quickly.
Yes, because it's a great idea to invest so many points in a unit that is protected by nothing else than a 4+ save, suffers terrible losses against any hidden powerfists inside a cover and can only assault and shoot one target per turn. A genius idea, actually.

New nids took a step to being an elite army, with an average unit costing 200+ points. It's especially sad that the promises of cheaper gaunts proved untrue - they now cost as much as before, and lost some of their abilities (rerolls for shooting, fleet).

Noc Fanclub #1
30-12-2009, 23:49
The uber warrior squad sounds a lot like orc nob bikers, with just about every possible upgrade, at a massive cost. Except that the warriors get some kind of drop pod instead of bikes? And they're tyranid so they are awesome. Two squads deep striking in, one with gunnery and one with an alpha and lots of cc killity. And they are troops ffs!! Finally nids can properly hold objectives.

Some slighty off topic stuff.
Can some one please explain to me, as I do not play as nids anymore so I'm not getting the codex, what a tervigore is. It sounds really awesome, like an uber termigaunt?
And also, are broodlords finally part of a basic stealer squad? Like a sergeant for them?
Lastly, woot for trygon.

naloth
30-12-2009, 23:52
Some slighty off topic stuff.
Can some one please explain to me, as I do not play as nids anymore so I'm not getting the codex, what a tervigore is. It sounds really awesome, like an uber termigaunt?

It's a monstrous creature that can create termagaunts (w/o upgrades), buffs termagaunts within 6" (passes on certain advantages if it has them), is synapse, reportedly is T6 W6, and can buy psychic powers that offer pretty big army buffs (FnP or Fleet & Fire).



And also, are broodlords finally part of a basic stealer squad? Like a sergeant for them?

Yes, but he loses power weapons and gains 2 pretty nifty psychic abilities.

Shadowfax
30-12-2009, 23:58
The uber warrior squad sounds a lot like orc nob bikers, with just about every possible upgrade, at a massive cost. Except that the warriors get some kind of drop pod instead of bikes? And they're tyranid so they are awesome. Two squads deep striking in, one with gunnery and one with an alpha and lots of cc killity. And they are troops ffs!! Finally nids can properly hold objectives.

The Nob bikers have invulnerable saves, wound allocation, and probably FNP to save their butts. That gives them a lot more durability, which is what you want in a death star unit to ensure it can last longer than one engagement.

Badger[Fr]
30-12-2009, 23:58
The uber warrior squad sounds a lot like orc nob bikers, with just about every possible upgrade, at a massive cost.
You mean, the same Nob Bikers that move twice as fast as Warriors, get a 4+ (or even 3+ when turbo boosting) Cover save, a 5+ Invulnerable save, frag grenades, and twin-linked S5 Assault 3 guns, or can abuse the wound allocation system to its full extent?


Yes, because it's a great idea to invest so many points in a unit that is protected by nothing else than a 4+ save, suffers terrible losses against any hidden powerfists inside a cover and can only assault and shoot one target per turn. A genius idea, actually.
Indeed. This is the best Manticore target practice I could think of.



New nids took a step to being an elite army, with an average unit costing 200+ points. It's especially sad that the promises of cheaper gaunts proved untrue - they now cost as much as before, and lost some of their abilities (rerolls for shooting, fleet).
Gaunts still get tons of buffs through awesome synergies with other units such as Tervigons. Furious charging Gaunts with FNP are actually quite impressive, and swarm builds may still be viable.

Noc Fanclub #1
31-12-2009, 00:06
The Nob bikers have invulnerable saves, wound allocation, and probably FNP to save their butts. That gives them a lot more durability, which is what you want in a death star unit to ensure it can last longer than one engagement.

trade one for the other.

The nids sound a lot stronger in close combat, even if with far less guys left by the time theyr there. 2 guys and an alpha sound quite capable to rip up 10 man MEQs, though the ID proves problematic.

That tervigore sounds damn awesome. I might have to get some more nids just to use him :)
Wow gaunts with FnP. That'll be the day. WTF its true? damn. thats crazy awesome. I dont care what anyone thinks, thats the coolest thing ever, that tervigore. 6 Fkn wounds!

Da Black Gobbo
31-12-2009, 00:10
;4252723']
Indeed. This is the best Manticore target practice I could think of.


I dare your manticore to shoot when the warriors landed just about 4' from it. The Drop spore is ace for this unit, all your ordinance tricks will either, not work because you have a minimum range, or they will be trully risky due to the proximity of the target. Expensive unit? sure but they are must be really fun to play!

kaimarion
31-12-2009, 00:20
You can still mess about with wound allocation but for the love of god stay away from battlecannons.

The only rubbish thing about warriors in the new dex is that winged ones are only slightly more expensive but are in the FA slot which means they are competing for space with ravs and gargoyles both of which are good choices. I didn't expect winged warriors to be troops but I feel that the Flyrant for it's ridiculous points cost should have made gargoyes or at the very least a unit of them troops.

Vaktathi
31-12-2009, 00:26
I wouldn't be able to get over the battlecannon paranoia. Too much risk for me.

If I could somehow port that unit over to my WFB army, though...

It'd definitely be a win big/lose big unit, I wouldn't take it against IG, but against other nids, Orks, tau, most marine lists, eldar, WH, DH, daemons, etc it wouldn't be terrible. It'd actually be really painful for Daemons to have to deal with I think.


Yes, because it's a great idea to invest so many points in a unit that is protected by nothing else than a 4+ save, suffers terrible losses against any hidden powerfists inside a cover and can only assault and shoot one target per turn. A genius idea, actually. It's not a unit I'd play or that I came up with, I just pointed out that it's very shooty and killy. Against anything not capable of inflicting ID on them (and lets face it, a hidden powerfist might kill 1 on average, or you could just take it on the T5 Alpha) they'll eat it alive. 4+ save and 3 wounds each means against small arms and CC attacks they'll be more resistant to casualties point for point than Space Marines. ID will be their big weakness, no doubt about that, but other than that they'll be a pain for most enemies to have to tear through.

catbarf
31-12-2009, 01:03
Some slighty off topic stuff.
Can some one please explain to me, as I do not play as nids anymore so I'm not getting the codex, what a tervigore is. It sounds really awesome, like an uber termigaunt?
And also, are broodlords finally part of a basic stealer squad? Like a sergeant for them?
Lastly, woot for trygon.

The Tervigon is a new Monstrous Creature that can spit out 3d6 Termagants per turn for free, but if it ever rolls doubles (about 50/50 chance) is done for the game. The Broodlord is now a squad upgrade.

I realized while looking at the codex that depending on what order you buy your weapons in, a Scything Talons + Rending Claws warrior can have two different points costs. Basically, if you replace the devourer with the rending claws, it's free. But if you replace the scything talons with rending claws, it costs as much as one Termagant, and then you can change the devourer to a pair of scything talons for free- a net increase in cost.

:wtf:

Edit: Oh, and we need to start pressuring Maxmini or some other company to produce 'organic swords and whips' for our Warriors!

Shadowfax
31-12-2009, 01:31
It'd definitely be a win big/lose big unit, I wouldn't take it against IG, but against other nids, Orks, tau, most marine lists, eldar, WH, DH, daemons, etc it wouldn't be terrible. It'd actually be really painful for Daemons to have to deal with I think.

It's crazy to think about how sickeningly brutal nid versus nid games are going to be. Hormagaunts pulling down Trygons, Hive Tyrants instagibbing one another, Biovores sweeping away Gaunts by the handful, etc. Very fluffy.




Edit: Oh, and we need to start pressuring Maxmini or some other company to produce 'organic swords and whips' for our Warriors!
Yeah, I'm already wondering how to achieve these conversions.

I'm going to feel really bad pulling the arms off of my Warriors... they've already been through it twice, and I don't know how much more abuse they can take before they just crumble into dust.

catbarf
31-12-2009, 01:35
It's crazy to think about how sickeningly brutal nid versus nid games are going to be. Hormagaunts pulling down Trygons, Hive Tyrants instagibbing one another, Biovores sweeping away Gaunts by the handful, etc. Very fluffy.

I agree, very cool- especially since the glaring weaknesses of some of the units will be minor concerns (Instant Death and craptacular anti-vehicle, for example). I do think it's a dumb bit of fluff, though, considering the incredible amounts of energy that would be lost in infighting.

Shadowfax
31-12-2009, 01:44
The official stance on nid versus nid battles is that they do happen, when hivefleets who have been evolving away from one another meet and decide to combine, but need to "test" which mutations will make the cut in the upcoming amalgam of the two tendrils.

Personally, I love the idea. None of the biomass involved is lost, so I don't think it's ultimately that wasteful.

catbarf
31-12-2009, 02:10
The official stance on nid versus nid battles is that they do happen, when hivefleets who have been evolving away from one another meet and decide to combine, but need to "test" which mutations will make the cut in the upcoming amalgam of the two tendrils.

Personally, I love the idea. None of the biomass involved is lost, so I don't think it's ultimately that wasteful.

Oh, yes, I know the fluff, I just think it doesn't make sense. You might not lose any biomass, but they would lose a hell of a lot of energy through all that fighting.

It's like saying that Ork clans can fight incessantly and lose nothing, since they can always rebuild the bits of their equipment left over. It ignores that they still lose ammunition and fuel in the process.

Edit: Not to mention that harvesting all that biomass and converting it into a usable, generic 'biofuel' would require yet more energy. It's not really very efficient.

Shadowfax
31-12-2009, 02:20
I'm getting into territory that's a bit over my head, but on a scale that large is any energy even lost?

A nid on nid battle might represent a huge expenditure of their stored and processed forms of easy-to-use energy, but wouldn't it all be up for eventual recouping once the dust had settled? Nothing is lost for good, right? They are the master race of recycling after all.

Isn't the law of conservation of energy at play in this scenario?

Lord Cook
31-12-2009, 02:40
Warriors are good. Yes, they die in one hit from a meltagun. Boo hoo. A Plague Marine dies in a single hit from a meltagun too, but you don't see people avoiding them like the plague.

Pretty much this. Speaking as someone who plays with Guard incessently, people are overreacting over the loss of Eternal Warrior. If you're deploying your Warriors normally it's not hard to place them in such a way that your opponent will never hit more than about three with a large blast. Even if we assume they manage to hit (and Christ knows my shells miss often enough) there's a decent chance that one of those three will fail to wound. Then you've got a 4+ cover save from your Gaunt screen (and why would you not have a screen?). You're losing one Warrior, perhaps two. Indirect fire artillery will ignore your Gaunt screen, but only two artillery pieces are S8+. Of these, Basilisks are massively unpopular, and considered to be weak choices. Manticores will kill you. Simple as. But, we're talking about one unit in the entire game here. Only Guard can get them, and most Guard players won't have one.

Alternatively, there's the multiple S8+ normal weapons. Again, Guard is the going to be the worst culprit here, with 3x meltagun Veteran squads and Vendettas. But these units are both looking at about two hits. That's two kills on average, and this assumes you're not getting a cover save. This Tyranid book looks like it will rely on cooperative units more than ever before, so concentrate on getting those cover saves. Watch out for Long Fangs too. They like their missile launchers.

I'm not saying it will be looking good for you drawing up against Imperial Guard, as they certainly seem to be packing the best figurative bug-sprays right now, but it's not all doom and gloom.


I'm going to feel really bad pulling the arms off of my Warriors... they've already been through it twice, and I don't know how much more abuse they can take before they just crumble into dust.

I'm just hoping I can still use my Ravener conversions with scything talons and rending claws frankly. Although not having to rip up a dozen Warriors would be a blessing too.

Shadowfax
31-12-2009, 02:54
Never fear, Raveners can still legally sport 1 pair of scytals + 1 pair of rending claws.

catbarf
31-12-2009, 03:58
I'm getting into territory that's a bit over my head, but on a scale that large is any energy even lost?

A nid on nid battle might represent a huge expenditure of their stored and processed forms of easy-to-use energy, but wouldn't it all be up for eventual recouping once the dust had settled? Nothing is lost for good, right? They are the master race of recycling after all.

Isn't the law of conservation of energy at play in this scenario?

Remember, in thermodynamics, you can never break even. There's no 100% efficient process, and energy is always lost in any conversion of chemical energy into other forms and vice versa. Heat, light, and sound are examples of 'loss' energy. Given the numbers of organisms involved in such a battle, the energy loss would be tremendous- every step, every breath taken by even the smallest organism reflects the use of kinetic energy. Not only would energy be lost through the living, moving, and fighting of the organisms, but also through the living and moving of the reclamation organisms sent to clean up the corpses. And beyond that, energy would be lost in the processes required to convert the piles of chitin and flesh into usable biomass.

Think about it this way- of all the food you eat, only a minority of that material is used to repair your body and becomes part of you, and another minority is waste. Most of what you eat is used (converted to kinetic energy) to move and function, and is gone forever. Even if you got turned into Soylent Green, there would be no way to recover all the food you have eaten in your entire life. That energy is just gone, turned into heat and floating into the atmosphere.

On-topic: Lord Cook speaks the truth. Battle Cannons will become the nightmare of Tyranid Warriors, but they're by no means a useless unit.

Shadowfax
31-12-2009, 04:09
Remember, in thermodynamics, you can never break even. There's no 100% efficient process, and energy is always lost in any conversion of chemical energy into other forms and vice versa. Heat, light, and sound are examples of 'loss' energy. Given the numbers of organisms involved in such a battle, the energy loss would be tremendous- every step, every breath taken by even the smallest organism reflects the use of kinetic energy. Not only would energy be lost through the living, moving, and fighting of the organisms, but also through the living and moving of the reclamation organisms sent to clean up the corpses. And beyond that, energy would be lost in the processes required to convert the piles of chitin and flesh into usable biomass.

Think about it this way- of all the food you eat, only a minority of that material is used to repair your body and becomes part of you, and another minority is waste. Most of what you eat is used (converted to kinetic energy) to move and function, and is gone forever. Even if you got turned into Soylent Green, there would be no way to recover all the food you have eaten in your entire life. That energy is just gone, turned into heat and floating into the atmosphere.

But you touched on the key point right at the end there -- everything expended during the conflict is still contained within the atmosphere of the planet it occurred on, and will ultimately be reabsorbed by the spacefaring hivefleet.

catbarf
31-12-2009, 04:23
But you touched on the key point right at the end there -- everything expended during the conflict is still contained within the atmosphere of the planet it occurred on, and will ultimately be reabsorbed by the spacefaring hivefleet.

Only to a very, very limited degree. Heat and light are irrevocably lost very quickly out into space, sound (kinetic energy really) is more destructive than useful, and in any case the processes necessary to 'harvest' these waste products would in turn produce far more waste than they'd be worth.

cuda1179
31-12-2009, 04:51
Maybe it's not a matter of efficiency. So what if they loose tons of engergy? Maybe in the long run (as the Tyranids see it) getting all the best bits of genetic information from both sides absorbed into one fleet is more than worth it to create a stonger race. Heck, it may even save them energy in the long run, or even open up more doors for them.
Technically, jumping strait from the ground floor to the second floor in a building will use less energy than walking up the 12 or so stairs to get up there. I know which one I'd rather do.

catbarf
31-12-2009, 04:58
Maybe it's not a matter of efficiency. So what if they loose tons of engergy? Maybe in the long run (as the Tyranids see it) getting all the best bits of genetic information from both sides absorbed into one fleet is more than worth it to create a stonger race. Heck, it may even save them energy in the long run, or even open up more doors for them.
Technically, jumping strait from the ground floor to the second floor in a building will use less energy than walking up the 12 or so stairs to get up there. I know which one I'd rather do.

That is a valid point. But surely the collective intelligence of the Hive Mind can sort out what genetic trends are favorable without needing to conduct a wasteful and limited assessment through extermination.

Lord Cook
31-12-2009, 05:08
That is a valid point. But surely the collective intelligence of the Hive Mind can sort out what genetic trends are favorable without needing to conduct a wasteful and limited assessment through extermination.

In theory, theory is the same as practice. In practice, it isn't.

By definition, experimentation can be more valuable than simple theory.

EmperorEternalXIX
31-12-2009, 05:11
You are insane. Without ID immunity, you could put 100 wounds on Warriors and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. They are still just melta\ML\p-fist\p-claw\bright-lance\ etc. meat.

No "Wound Allocation" anymore either.

EVERYTHING in the new Dex is nerfed but Trygons and their varients. Yeah it's insane. No army could ever survive with a 30-wound troops unit.

You guys make it out like every model in the game is carrying a strength 8 apocalypse blast. Melta? Please. Power Fists? Wow, insta-killing a miraculous three models a combat.

Learn to use the cheap models as cover and watch as these guys own.

big squig
31-12-2009, 05:14
No way. They are going to get slaughtered by power fists and missiles. They never needed more wounds, they needed toughness 5.

Though, making them troops is cool, you only have 6 troop slots. How the hell are you going to fit in a solid base of guants, stealers, and warriors?

catbarf
31-12-2009, 05:14
In theory, theory is the same as practice. In practice, it isn't.

By definition, experimentation can be more valuable than simple theory.

But at the same time, we're dealing with an incredibly advanced alien race that can engineer its organisms from the smallest level- and yet its only means of analyzing comparative effectiveness is to test them in a situation (Nid vs Nid) that does not reflect conflict with other races and results in massive loss of resources? It just seems too simplistic for a race that relies upon analyzing what works and what doesn't to improve itself.


No way. They are going to get slaughtered by power fists and missiles. They never needed more wounds, they needed toughness 5.

Well, this is where tactics come into play. Getting them in cover will help against ranged weapons, as will presenting better targets (such as Monstrous Creatures). Why not try using units in synergy? If Marines with power fists are tearing up your Warriors, use Hormagaunts. If a Devastator squad is chewing them up, Outflank with Genestealers or Deep Strike some Devourgaunts in.

Heavy firepower is now their greatest weakness. If you can neutralize the big guns, then the Warriors will have no trouble. They're no longer extremely vulnerable to bolter fire, nor are they pushovers in combat. Tyranids are all about coordination.

funkmasterfresh
31-12-2009, 05:22
someone needs to run a 4th ed nid vs 5th ed nid game

Vepr
31-12-2009, 05:26
The problem with CC warriors is you cannot support them with smaller bugs because we just run into the same fearless wound issue we did before with the enemy attacking the gants or gaunts and spilling wounds over the the warriors.

It is hard to have any synergy with CC nids due to fearless. The Tervigon and Tyrant might help with this issue but when you are trying to coordinate 3 or more different units in that fashion it can become a pain.

Lord Raneus
31-12-2009, 05:28
Sure, Warriors are going to be in a little trouble against S8+ weapons. However, it's not like we're fighting every game in the Gobi Desert or something. There will be plenty of terrain to hide behind, and if there isn't, Nids have a plethora of options for screening units.

I, for one, am not going to mourn over the loss of Eternal Warrior for nids. It was quite frankly a stupid rule and a huge crutch. Watching lascannons and melta guns bounce off Warriors was incredibly frustrating. My super-tooled-up Chapter Master or Epistolary can still take a powerfist to the face and die instantly; I don't see why everything Tyranid deserved to be immune.

Frankly, I'm too busy crapping my pants over the thought of Trygons burrowing up in my face and letting the rest of the Nid army follow them to be cackling fiendishly over how I can now insta-kill Warriors. :p

Plus, what kind of Marine player takes missile launchers? I don't think I've used mine in a year. :\

Vepr
31-12-2009, 05:32
someone needs to run a 4th ed nid vs 5th ed nid game

Hmmm. The old EW from synapse and the amount of dakka you could put in the list from old 4th would be a problem for the new dex it would seem. Trying to think of an advantage for the 5th. Gargoyles come to mind along with some of the new psych powers. I just don't know the new dex well enough but the ranged was better in the last dex and the CC is better in this dex. If the new MC's could survive to get close enough it would probably tilt in their favor but getting to the old MC's would be a nightmare. Really the old horde list seems about the same really with the advantage in range for the new dex but fleet and leaping and living ammo for the old. It is a good idea and would interesting.

Lord Cook
31-12-2009, 05:33
It just seems too simplistic for a race that relies upon analyzing what works and what doesn't to improve itself.

The real question you should be asking yourself catbarf is does it seem too simplistic to be considered plausible by the majority of GW's market demographic? ;)

Vepr
31-12-2009, 05:36
Sure, Warriors are going to be in a little trouble against S8+ weapons. However, it's not like we're fighting every game in the Gobi Desert or something. There will be plenty of terrain to hide behind, and if there isn't, Nids have a plethora of options for screening units.

I, for one, am not going to mourn over the loss of Eternal Warrior for nids. It was quite frankly a stupid rule and a huge crutch. Watching lascannons and melta guns bounce off Warriors was incredibly frustrating. My super-tooled-up Chapter Master or Epistolary can still take a powerfist to the face and die instantly; I don't see why everything Tyranid deserved to be immune.

Frankly, I'm too busy crapping my pants over the thought of Trygons burrowing up in my face and letting the rest of the Nid army follow them to be cackling fiendishly over how I can now insta-kill Warriors. :p

Plus, what kind of Marine player takes missile launchers? I don't think I've used mine in a year. :\

I don't have a problem with the change in synapse. We knew it was coming and no one should be surprised about the change.

I do have a bit of a problem with the Tyrant. I think it was the only nid that should have got either EW or a 5 plus invul save for such an expensive MC/HQ.

Lord Raneus
31-12-2009, 05:44
I would agree that the Tyrant should have some kind of EW; the Demon Prince, for example, is of comparable size and killiness and got that protection so he couldn't get oneshotted by force weapons. The Tyrant is so central to the Nid army that I believe it does deserve this.

Realistically, though, a Hive Tyrant should own anything carrying a force weapon pretty hard before it gets to attack him.

big squig
31-12-2009, 05:49
I'm in the opposite camp really. Not only do I think the tyrant shouldn't have EW, neither should the daemon prince or any daemon for that matter. Banishing daemons and dropping giant monstrosities is the whole point of the force weapon's existence.

If everything the force weapon was designed for has EW, we might as well just give librarians power weapons and make them 40pts cheaper.

Lord Raneus
31-12-2009, 05:53
I do agree that force weapons should actually be a bit more effective, and to be honest I was glad to see that they'll be able to kill most Nid MCs now. However, given the importance of the Tyrant, I think it, if anything, deserves it.

Hopefully the devs continue to scale back the prevalence of EW.

Vepr
31-12-2009, 05:56
I'm in the opposite camp really. Not only do I think the tyrant shouldn't have EW, neither should the daemon prince or any daemon for that matter. Banishing daemons and dropping giant monstrosities is the whole point of the force weapon's existence.

If everything the force weapon was designed for has EW, we might as well just give librarians power weapons and make them 40pts cheaper.

Like I said I don't think it should be on anything else in the codex and the Tyrant does have some protection with shadow in the warp. Eternal warrior should be very rare with maybe one thing per codex that has it. I would just think that if anything would have it for nids it would be the Tyrant especially with the points investment on it now. Either way not the end of the world.

Netfreakk
31-12-2009, 06:01
IMO Force Weapons are basically made to destroy nids not daemons. Same as Jaws of the Wolf. No other army has so many MC that don't have protection. Daemons have EW, Avatar has high I and WS10, Wraithguard have I4 and at T8 can't get hurt by forceweapons other than GK.

Seems pretty anti-nid MC to me.... :T

Vepr
31-12-2009, 06:06
IMO Force Weapons are basically made to destroy nids not daemons. Same as Jaws of the Wolf. No other army has so many MC that don't have protection. Daemons have EW, Avatar has high I and WS10, Wraithguard have I4 and at T8 can't get hurt by forceweapons other than GK.

Seems pretty anti-nid MC to me.... :T

They definitely are now. :cries: :p

big squig
31-12-2009, 06:07
IMO Force Weapons are basically made to destroy nids not daemons. Same as Jaws of the Wolf. No other army has so many MC that don't have protection. Daemons have EW, Avatar has high I and WS10, Wraithguard have I4 and at T8 can't get hurt by forceweapons other than GK.

Seems pretty anti-nid MC to me.... :T
Well, fluff wise, they're meant for banishing daemons...so much for that.:rolleyes:

Ravenous
31-12-2009, 06:10
there is always the risk of losing them to a Battle Cannon hit

I wouldnt even worry about that, because of their 40mm base size you wont get many under the template.

They are basically like the old Ogryn, which not many people took because of the point value. Personally Im on the fence, the loss of EW doesnt bother me much, its the high point cost of the unit vs its effectiveness that Im concerned about. The codex has a weird balance of really expensive units with really cheap units, its all about finding that right mix, the major problem is that the expensive units arent as durable as their point costs suggest.

big squig
31-12-2009, 06:20
I wouldnt even worry about that, because of their 40mm base size you wont get many under the template.

They are basically like the old Ogryn, which not many people took because of the point value. Personally Im on the fence, the loss of EW doesnt bother me much, its the high point cost of the unit vs its effectiveness that Im concerned about. The codex has a weird balance of really expensive units with really cheap units, its all about finding that right mix, the major problem is that the expensive units arent as durable as their point costs suggest.
Yep, the new warriors are eerily similar to the old ogryns.

Dust King
31-12-2009, 06:23
I do think it's a dumb bit of fluff, though, considering the incredible amounts of energy that would be lost in infighting.

Actually from what I remember from BFG tyranid hiveships can photosynthesise and so they don't need to worry about losing energy in battle. So as long as they regain the biomass then they can easily regain the energy by sitting in the sun for a bit.

Netfreakk
31-12-2009, 06:33
I don't know the point costs nor do I know any information first hand, so I will reserve my final judgment til then, but I'm hoping for some great things if it's going to cost a lot. Maybe I'm just deluded because I see Ork Nob bikers so much, but I would pay the same points for something that scary. I just don't see that kind of threat from what I hear about the Warriors.

Voss
31-12-2009, 08:09
It's not a unit I'd play or that I came up with, I just pointed out that it's very shooty and killy. Against anything not capable of inflicting ID on them (and lets face it, a hidden powerfist might kill 1 on average, or you could just take it on the T5 Alpha)

Just as an aside, this doesn't work. The alpha is supposed to be an Independent Character, so attacks will be allocated against him or the squad in advance. He can take ID shooting attacks for the unit, but not close combat attacks.


Unless there are provisions for retinues that I haven't seen (which is entirely possible).

Badger[Fr]
31-12-2009, 08:24
Being vulnerable to Instant Death is one thing, but do people realize Tyranid Warriors are much slower than they used to be? They can no longer fleet nor charge 12'. This is huge nerf, even more significant than the loss of EW. And let's not mention the lack of frag grenades on a high I, CC dedicated unit, will we?

Tyranid players who used to run Warrior-heavy armies are obviously not too happy about it.

squeekenator
31-12-2009, 10:32
Being vulnerable to Instant Death is one thing, but do people realize Tyranid Warriors are much slower than they used to be? They can no longer fleet nor charge 12'.

They couldn't fleet under the 4th edition codex either, and they're now capable of outflanking (with a Hive Tyrant's help) or deep striking. This is a huge buff, even more significant than the third wound.

Morlu
31-12-2009, 10:34
I have small question about warrior alphas...does anyone know if they will only be able to join warrior units or will they be standard ICs and be able to join any infantry unit...for example a unit of gaunts or hormies so you never have to worry about synapse with them?

Vaktathi
31-12-2009, 10:43
I have small question about warrior alphas...does anyone know if they will only be able to join warrior units or will they be standard ICs and be able to join any infantry unit...for example a unit of gaunts or hormies so you never have to worry about synapse with them?

They are normal independent characters so can join anything, they just provide a really big boost to Warrior units when joining them.

sayles78
31-12-2009, 12:04
I'm in the opposite camp really. Not only do I think the tyrant shouldn't have EW, neither should the daemon prince or any daemon for that matter. Banishing daemons and dropping giant monstrosities is the whole point of the force weapon's existence.

If everything the force weapon was designed for has EW, we might as well just give librarians power weapons and make them 40pts cheaper.

This ^^^^

You speak the truth brother.

SteelTitan
31-12-2009, 12:12
I cannot really make out whether scything talons + rending claw warriors are now better or worse than before (they were good before but just SUPER expensive, also due to leaping).

AmasNagol
31-12-2009, 12:23
After looking through the book it seems what Cruddace was trying to do was make the Tyranid force one which was successful by presenting a number of different threats which if not dealt with expeditiously would build up into an insurmountable force.

Tyranid Warriors do not have EW, and Lictors cannot charge after appearing, Carnifexes are not walking Leman Russes, but they do have a huge number of threats now which can appear in the backfield and utterly disrupt the old method of beating Tyranids which was stand back and shoot your way through the chain of command.

A Marine army which would have previously hugged the table edge and shot at Winged Tyrant, standard tyrant, Elite Fex, Standard Fex, Little-uns in that order now has to deal with Trygon and Tervigon appearing in his backfield followed by Gaunts. Lictors popping up as well as Drop Podding Stealers and Warriors.

Yes they are less survivable on the way in foot slogging, but now they do not need to foot slog. They can appear and swamp areas of the board without being broken. The 5th Ed metagame is based around mobility, and a foot slogging horde of monsters just isn't viable. It's why the best Ork builds rely on Wagons and Bikes. The Tervigon and the Drop Pod are the Tyranid equivalent of this.

Give them a go, they seem like they will be fun to play in a new way.

Megad00mer
31-12-2009, 14:39
After looking through the book it seems what Cruddace was trying to do was make the Tyranid force one which was successful by presenting a number of different threats which if not dealt with expeditiously would build up into an insurmountable force.

Tyranid Warriors do not have EW, and Lictors cannot charge after appearing, Carnifexes are not walking Leman Russes, but they do have a huge number of threats now which can appear in the backfield and utterly disrupt the old method of beating Tyranids which was stand back and shoot your way through the chain of command.

A Marine army which would have previously hugged the table edge and shot at Winged Tyrant, standard tyrant, Elite Fex, Standard Fex, Little-uns in that order now has to deal with Trygon and Tervigon appearing in his backfield followed by Gaunts. Lictors popping up as well as Drop Podding Stealers and Warriors.

Yes they are less survivable on the way in foot slogging, but now they do not need to foot slog. They can appear and swamp areas of the board without being broken. The 5th Ed metagame is based around mobility, and a foot slogging horde of monsters just isn't viable. It's why the best Ork builds rely on Wagons and Bikes. The Tervigon and the Drop Pod are the Tyranid equivalent of this.

Give them a go, they seem like they will be fun to play in a new way.

^This.

People are bitching and whining about the new book because they are thinking about the army in terms of the 4th ed. Codex. The new nids are so vastly different than 4th ed. it can almost be deemed a new army. They don't play at all like they used too. Read the book, try to see the synergy and awesome combos. It's a great Codex.

Ventus
31-12-2009, 14:54
I agree with you Megad00mer that the new codex probably should be looked at differently than 4th edition (we'll see in about two weeks). I only hope that I don't HAVE to take a Trygon (or variant) and use drop pods. They are fine, but I want my horde of a variety of small (gaunts, hormagaunts, a few stealers, probably new gargoyles) and mid-sized (ravenors, warriors, lictor, Zoeys, Hive Guard, maybe venomthrope or biovores)
and 1-2 carnifexes to still be viable. If it is I will be happy. Trygons and their versions along with drop pods might be interesting to try but I like the idea of a swarm rushing in on the enemy. Some of the posts give me cause for concern but I will wait until the English codex is out to make a final judgement.
Lets hope a swarmy horde of some type will be good (at least improved over 4th edition)!

Abaddonshand
31-12-2009, 15:29
Remember, in thermodynamics, you can never break even. There's no 100% efficient process, and energy is always lost in any conversion of chemical energy into other forms and vice versa. Heat, light, and sound are examples of 'loss' energy. Given the numbers of organisms involved in such a battle, the energy loss would be tremendous- every step, every breath taken by even the smallest organism reflects the use of kinetic energy. Not only would energy be lost through the living, moving, and fighting of the organisms, but also through the living and moving of the reclamation organisms sent to clean up the corpses. And beyond that, energy would be lost in the processes required to convert the piles of chitin and flesh into usable biomass.

Think about it this way- of all the food you eat, only a minority of that material is used to repair your body and becomes part of you, and another minority is waste. Most of what you eat is used (converted to kinetic energy) to move and function, and is gone forever. Even if you got turned into Soylent Green, there would be no way to recover all the food you have eaten in your entire life. That energy is just gone, turned into heat and floating into the atmosphere.


Tyranids don't ever digest food on an individual level though. They have mouths and stomachs, but their digestive tracts stop there. They use their stomach simply as a storage place to keep biomass they have collected before they hurl themselves into a digestion pool, to be reabsorbed by the hive fleet (This is all in Xenology). As such, when 2 hive fleets fight each other on a planet's surface, they only lose the initial energy they invested in the creatures when they were created, which would have been lost in any case when they were reabsorbed, a la your solvent green analogy. Therefore, they are verging on 100% efficiency, as they only lose the bare minimum that would have been lost in any case. Giving individual Tyranids digestive systems would have been too much of an investment, it would be like human teeth being able to digest part of our meals for us.


That is a valid point. But surely the collective intelligence of the Hive Mind can sort out what genetic trends are favorable without needing to conduct a wasteful and limited assessment through extermination.

It's basic Darwinism, survival of the fittest.


But at the same time, we're dealing with an incredibly advanced alien race that can engineer its organisms from the smallest level- and yet its only means of analyzing comparative effectiveness is to test them in a situation (Nid vs Nid) that does not reflect conflict with other races and results in massive loss of resources? It just seems too simplistic for a race that relies upon analyzing what works and what doesn't to improve itself.


Tyranids as a race are often described as hyper-evolution in action (aka evolution on crack). For evolution to take place, there must be experience of an enviroment. I.E. Nids invade a planet, and have difficulty cracking land raiders, so they evolve better vemon cannons for the next planet, or they evolve more potent zoanthrope warp blasts for the next planet etc, to avoid such difficulties in the future. One cannot genetically engineer a creature to resolve a problem before one knows what the problem is. All evolution, including forced evolution (genetic engineering) is done in hindsight, after having encountered an unforseen problem and needing to change to overcome it. If they could see every possible problem in advance, their would be no need to evolve, as they would be the best they could possibly be right from the starting point. To do otherwise would be inefficient.

DuskRaider
31-12-2009, 15:39
You are insane. Without ID immunity, you could put 100 wounds on Warriors and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. They are still just melta\ML\p-fist\p-claw\bright-lance\ etc. meat.

No "Wound Allocation" anymore either.

EVERYTHING in the new Dex is nerfed but Trygons and their varients.

"How dare my new codex not be unbeatable?!" :rolleyes:

Vepr
31-12-2009, 16:05
I don't think warriors should be immune to ID with three wounds. That would be crazy and they would have to be pretty expensive to justify it. My only question after looking at them is if they are worth their points now in offensive capability. The nerf to their shooting along with the removal of leaping and frag grenades is going to be rough on them. They are not very good at range and they are not very good in CC now. If you lose one to a power fist etc it really hurts your combat resolution. I don't think they will hurt your army but I don't see them helping either especially when compared to other choices for the points.

I think their narrow niche will objectives now.

catbarf
31-12-2009, 16:20
Tyranids don't ever digest food on an individual level though. They have mouths and stomachs, but their digestive tracts stop there. They use their stomach simply as a storage place to keep biomass they have collected before they hurl themselves into a digestion pool, to be reabsorbed by the hive fleet (This is all in Xenology). As such, when 2 hive fleets fight each other on a planet's surface, they only lose the initial energy they invested in the creatures when they were created, which would have been lost in any case when they were reabsorbed, a la your solvent green analogy. Therefore, they are verging on 100% efficiency, as they only lose the bare minimum that would have been lost in any case. Giving individual Tyranids digestive systems would have been too much of an investment, it would be like human teeth being able to digest part of our meals for us.

You're completely ignoring that energy is required to continue living, to move, to fight, to process the remaining bits after the battle. That's the point of the analogy- you can't recover all the food someone has ever eaten from their corpse, because the energy it contained has been used and is gone.

Saying that Tyranids would be re-absorbed and thus lose nothing is like saying that you can pull a burnt log out of a fire and have lost no fuel since you still have the log. It may physically exist but its energy has been depleted and is gone.


Tyranids as a race are often described as hyper-evolution in action (aka evolution on crack). For evolution to take place, there must be experience of an enviroment. I.E. Nids invade a planet, and have difficulty cracking land raiders, so they evolve better vemon cannons for the next planet, or they evolve more potent zoanthrope warp blasts for the next planet etc, to avoid such difficulties in the future. One cannot genetically engineer a creature to resolve a problem before one knows what the problem is. All evolution, including forced evolution (genetic engineering) is done in hindsight, after having encountered an unforseen problem and needing to change to overcome it. If they could see every possible problem in advance, their would be no need to evolve, as they would be the best they could possibly be right from the starting point. To do otherwise would be inefficient.

But why wouldn't they be able to predict, or at least recombine, or better yet store the genetic data for both fleets and have the test be actual combat conditions?

Instead of fighting a battle that would be worthless, experiment-wise, since Tyranids vs Tyranids would not be testing what is best against humans and other races, they would simply fly on to the next planet and attack. It would become apparent very quickly whether or not the adaptations are adequate or need to be replaced.

Like you said, one cannot genetically engineer a creature to resolve a problem before one knows what the problem is. Tyranid infighting would not be addressing a problem that the fleets would face.

Askari
31-12-2009, 16:30
Tyranid Warriors losing their immunity to Instant Death, this is a big loss... er... why?

Hardly anyone used the Warriors in the last codex, and that was with ID Immunity, now instead they've gained a Wound.

Awesome says I.

After all, every other army copes with having multi-wound models that die to ID.

As to being Melta/Lascannon bait... well those weapons only get one shot each, and each one insta-fragging a Warrior is one less trying to down your Trygon of ultimate leetness.

catbarf
31-12-2009, 16:34
Tyranid Warriors losing their immunity to Instant Death, this is a big loss... er... why?

Hardly anyone used the Warriors in the last codex, and that was with ID Immunity, now instead they've gained a Wound.

Awesome says I.

After all, every other army copes with having multi-wound models that die to ID.

As to being Melta/Lascannon bait... well those weapons only get one shot each, and each one insta-fragging a Warrior is one less trying to down your Trygon of ultimate leetness.

I agree completely. The weapons that can threaten Warriors are going to have better targets, like Trygons popping up in the backfield or Tervigons spewing out Gaunts. And even if they target the Warriors, it's not like the Harpy where a single shot can take out a 150+pt model.

Lord Cook
31-12-2009, 16:45
But the Harpy's T5 right? So you'd need something like a railgun to actually kill it in one shot.

catbarf
31-12-2009, 16:54
But the Harpy's T5 right? So you'd need something like a railgun to actually kill it in one shot.

Yes, you would need a S10 weapon, but if your opponent has a railgun, Vanquisher, or similar weapon then that Harpy is going to be its #1 target as a single shot could yield as many points as a Carnifex. Plus, given the lack of tanks in the Nid codex, that railgun likely won't have any better targets and might as well ID the Harpy.

Lord Cook
31-12-2009, 17:02
Yes, you would need a S10 weapon, but if your opponent has a railgun, Vanquisher, or similar weapon then that Harpy is going to be its #1 target as a single shot could yield as many points as a Carnifex. Plus, given the lack of tanks in the Nid codex, that railgun likely won't have any better targets and might as well ID the Harpy.

Vanquishers are S8+2d6, and only against vehicles. But anyway, the solution as ever is to take advantage of your 12" movement and don't leave it where a S10 gun can see it. Although T6 with one fewer wound would probably have been prudent.

Shadowfax
31-12-2009, 18:06
After looking through the book it seems what Cruddace was trying to do was make the Tyranid force one which was successful by presenting a number of different threats which if not dealt with expeditiously would build up into an insurmountable force.

Tyranid Warriors do not have EW, and Lictors cannot charge after appearing, Carnifexes are not walking Leman Russes, but they do have a huge number of threats now which can appear in the backfield and utterly disrupt the old method of beating Tyranids which was stand back and shoot your way through the chain of command.

A Marine army which would have previously hugged the table edge and shot at Winged Tyrant, standard tyrant, Elite Fex, Standard Fex, Little-uns in that order now has to deal with Trygon and Tervigon appearing in his backfield followed by Gaunts. Lictors popping up as well as Drop Podding Stealers and Warriors.

Yes they are less survivable on the way in foot slogging, but now they do not need to foot slog. They can appear and swamp areas of the board without being broken. The 5th Ed metagame is based around mobility, and a foot slogging horde of monsters just isn't viable. It's why the best Ork builds rely on Wagons and Bikes. The Tervigon and the Drop Pod are the Tyranid equivalent of this.

Give them a go, they seem like they will be fun to play in a new way.
This is a good post, but it disturbs me that Tyranids are going to lose mobility in the new codex. They have many more deployment options, but those do not represent true mobility ie. starting one place and getting to another. Plus, all of the new deployment options depend heavily on luck, since you'll be depending on lucky reserve rolls/scattering.

naloth
31-12-2009, 18:21
This is a good post, but it disturbs me that Tyranids are going to lose mobility in the new codex. They have many more deployment options, but those do not represent true mobility ie. starting one place and getting to another. Plus, all of the new deployment options depend heavily on luck, since you'll be depending on lucky reserve rolls/scattering.
I'm not sure this is entirely true.

Compared to the way 4e was when it was released (IIRC, fleet didn't allow assault and you couldn't run w/o fleet) it's certainly a gain. Even discounting changes 5e brought you now have Tervigons that can buy the ability to grant (super) fleet to any unit and plenty of fleet critters. Ravenors should still be beasts so we also have a super fast attack unit (albeit fragile). Arguably Gargoyles and Winged Warriors are more usable than ever and there's a few units that can redeploy during the game.

Vepr
31-12-2009, 18:36
It seems that with a heavy venom cannon a fex is like a really really expensive heavy weapons team.

Shadowfax
31-12-2009, 18:48
Compared to the way 4e was when it was released (IIRC, fleet didn't allow assault and you couldn't run w/o fleet) it's certainly a gain.
Seems to me nids were even faster at that point. Most of them would be moving 6"+D6" (with move through cover) versus the enemy's 6" (standard difficult terrain test).

Post-5th edition everybody could move 6"+D6", only most nids were able to charge afterwards (which tended to only be necessary once a game).


It seems that with a heavy venom cannon a fex is like a really really expensive heavy weapons team.
The Harpy is the best platform for a Heavy Venom Cannon, imo. 15 points cheaper than a Carnifex with the same gun, plus it's twin-linked, plus you get the mobility necessary to go after side armour and a backup weapon that can hurt up to AV11.

Voss
31-12-2009, 20:08
Yes they are less survivable on the way in foot slogging, but now they do not need to foot slog. They can appear and swamp areas of the board without being broken. The 5th Ed metagame is based around mobility, and a foot slogging horde of monsters just isn't viable. It's why the best Ork builds rely on Wagons and Bikes. The Tervigon and the Drop Pod are the Tyranid equivalent of this.

Give them a go, they seem like they will be fun to play in a new way.

Well, what you say above is partly true. I'd amend it to say 5th ed is based around _mechanized_ mobility, and the ability to pop up on the board and do offensive things to the enemy without the opponent being able to stop you.

Compared to the oodles of both the Cruddace gave to the Guard, the tyranids have none of the first, and limited amounts of the second.

Until I see the actual rules, I'm not sure how well the Tyranids will be able to deal with that metagame. (both in taking advantage of it, or stopping it when they're getting beat over the head with it).

Now, tyranids might be able to deal with by providing too many targets to deal with them all, but it sounds like the point costs of most things in the book is too high to do that effectively.

azimaith
31-12-2009, 20:39
You are insane. Without ID immunity, you could put 100 wounds on Warriors and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. They are still just melta\ML\p-fist\p-claw\bright-lance\ etc. meat.

No "Wound Allocation" anymore either.

EVERYTHING in the new Dex is nerfed but Trygons and their varients.

This is ridiculous. There were alot of ways to fix the warriors ID problems such as Toughness 5 or lower costs, however, simply improving survivability against small arms works well. Sure Krak missiles still ID them, but they get basic saves against bolters and the like as well as an extra wound. The problem was never just instant death. It was instant death combined with poor armor saves, average toughness, and a wounds per points ratio that was way off.

Back when tyranid warriors were gunned down easily by bolter fire (unless you made them even more expensive) they had problems with being too vulnerable to every weapon. With an extra wound and better save now they're simply really vulnerable to massed small arms or large heavy weapons, which is fine. Before small packs of small arms would wipe the floor with warriors without extra armor.

For example:
10 marines with a meltagun.
Previous:
18 shots at 12", about 11 hits, about 5 wounds. This either resulted in 2 dead warriors and another wounded with 5+ or 1-2 dead warriors with 4+.
Throw in the melta shot and you've got a good chance of putting another wound in resulting in between 2-4 dead warriors, easily a squad put down in a single round from a single enemy squad.

Now its more like:
18 shots, 11 hits, 5 wounds, 2.5 unsaved. 0-1 dead warriors. The melta fires, drops another.
So were looking at around 2 max dead warriors on average instead of 2-4 dead warriors.

Vepr
31-12-2009, 21:41
This is ridiculous. There were alot of ways to fix the warriors ID problems such as Toughness 5 or lower costs, however, simply improving survivability against small arms works well. Sure Krak missiles still ID them, but they get basic saves against bolters and the like as well as an extra wound. The problem was never just instant death. It was instant death combined with poor armor saves, average toughness, and a wounds per points ratio that was way off.

Back when tyranid warriors were gunned down easily by bolter fire (unless you made them even more expensive) they had problems with being too vulnerable to every weapon. With an extra wound and better save now they're simply really vulnerable to massed small arms or large heavy weapons, which is fine. Before small packs of small arms would wipe the floor with warriors without extra armor.

For example:
10 marines with a meltagun.
Previous:
18 shots at 12", about 11 hits, about 5 wounds. This either resulted in 2 dead warriors and another wounded with 5+ or 1-2 dead warriors with 4+.
Throw in the melta shot and you've got a good chance of putting another wound in resulting in between 2-4 dead warriors, easily a squad put down in a single round from a single enemy squad.

Now its more like:
18 shots, 11 hits, 5 wounds, 2.5 unsaved. 0-1 dead warriors. The melta fires, drops another.
So were looking at around 2 max dead warriors on average instead of 2-4 dead warriors.

I do think warriors needed to EW. The cost on them would have to be raised a lot. T5 also would raise their price to the point of making them too expensive.

The only area they really got way worse against is power fists and double strength blast templates. Those are going to put a hurting on warriors and a power fist is going to make it hard to win combats unless you really put a hurting on the unit you are attack. You are going to average starting 3 points in the hole with about a 20 percent chance of starting 6 points in the hole for combat resolution as a fist auto squishes one or two warriors.

Units of warriors almost require an Alpha now but they will make for over all nasty units.

IJW
31-12-2009, 22:04
Double strength template weapons? Even the Redeemer only goes up to S6.

EDIT - presumably you mean blast weapons?

Vepr
31-12-2009, 22:13
Double strength template weapons? Even the Redeemer only goes up to S6.

EDIT - presumably you mean blast weapons?

Whoops yeah I meant blast templates.

naloth
31-12-2009, 23:21
For example:
10 marines with a meltagun.
Previous:
18 shots at 12", about 11 hits, about 5 wounds. This either resulted in 2 dead warriors and another wounded with 5+ or 1-2 dead warriors with 4+.
Throw in the melta shot and you've got a good chance of putting another wound in resulting in between 2-4 dead warriors, easily a squad put down in a single round from a single enemy squad.

Ok, so you're assuming that the Warriors have basically no upgrades (let's say scything talons for 22 ea.) and they are out in the open where you can rapid fire them... 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds, no saves allowed, 3 Warriors worth 66 points. True but not a very fair comparison in models which is why the PV is more interesting.

Of course if they were in cover or had purchased the 3 point armor upgrade (built into the 5e warrior profile) they would take exactly the same number of wounds from the bolters as the present models (3ish) and probably a 4th wound from the melta. Wounds done: 4 total. Kills 2 Warriors worth ~25 points each (total 50ish).

If they didn't have EW that's 3 wounds from the bolters and another 3 from the insta-death melta. Total 6 wounds which kills 2 Warriors worth 30+ points each (min 60 points). That's pretty comparable to the warriors without upgrades in cost and worse against the 4e bio-morphed warriors.

What's the improvement here?

azimaith
31-12-2009, 23:32
Ok, so you're assuming that the Warriors have basically no upgrades (let's say scything talons for 22 ea.) and they are out in the open where you can rapid fire them... 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds, no saves allowed, 3 Warriors worth 66 points. True but not a very fair comparison in models which is why the PV is more interesting.

Uh, you can have flying warriors or leaping warriors with rending claws. Just because you don't have EC doesn't mean you don't have *any* upgrades. I'm assuming the warriors have upgrades that make them effective whether its enhanced senses, or adrenal glands and rending claws. Very few took dual talon warriors in 4th thus I find it rather silly to compare those to new warriors in the same way its stupid to compare a 4th ed dual rending claw carnifex to a 5th ed base carnifex.



Of course if they were in cover or had purchased the 3 point armor upgrade (built into the 5e warrior profile) they would take exactly the same number of wounds from the bolters as the present models (3ish) and probably a 4th wound from the melta. Wounds done: 4 total. Kills 2 Warriors worth ~25 points each (total 50ish).

You'd lose less warriors in the new codex because they have an extra wound against small arms.


If they didn't have EW that's 3 wounds from the bolters and another 3 from the insta-death melta. Total 6 wounds which kills 2 Warriors worth 30+ points each (min 60 points). That's pretty comparable to the warriors without upgrades in cost and worse against the 4e bio-morphed warriors.

What's the improvement here?
You don't see 4th ed codex warriors without upgrades, much less dual talons alone. Its almost always rending, guns, or some other set of upgrades making them baseline more expensive. Warriors in 4th ed nids easily hit 30 points with 4+ saves each. The new warrior has an extra wound and 4+ base. Considering the carnifex, its pretty likely they came out with more attacks as well.


I do think warriors needed to EW. The cost on them would have to be raised a lot. T5 also would raise their price to the point of making them too expensive.

GW doesn't point cost things based on some sliding scale or chart. T5 may or may not change their cost at all.



The only area they really got way worse against is power fists and double strength blast templates. Those are going to put a hurting on warriors and a power fist is going to make it hard to win combats unless you really put a hurting on the unit you are attack. You are going to average starting 3 points in the hole with about a 20 percent chance of starting 6 points in the hole for combat resolution as a fist auto squishes one or two warriors.

Powerfists autokilling a single warrior is likely, but hardly guaranteed. Killing 2 would be extremely lucky considering fists only get 2 attacks on sergeants.

Thats not even including things that will alter their ability to attack.



Units of warriors almost require an Alpha now but they will make for over all nasty units.
We'll see. Until I see a detailed list of biomorphs in the codex i'm not sounding the death knell for any tyranid unit.

From what i've seen it appears alot of close combat problems from 5th ed are still easily intact if not exacerbated by the codex *rumors*. But in actuality you can't tell without the book in front of you and some games behind you.

Vineas
01-01-2010, 08:00
Warriors: +1W,+1BS,+1A,+1AS,+1WS, Scythtals and Devourers standard. Can replace the talons with RC's for One gaurdsman in cost, pair of boneswords for 2x guardsman in cost and lash/whip bonesword for a plasmagun in cost.

1 Warrior in brood can replace it's Devourer for a BS at the cost of 2x guardsman or a VC for the cost of a plasmagun.

Any warrior can replace his dev for a pair of RC's for free, spinefist for free, deathspitter for a gaurdsman in cost, a pair of talons for free. The brood may take Glands for a gaurdman in cost and/or sacs for a gaurdsman in cost.

May take a pod for the cost of a single Terminator.

So for 30pts we get a WS5(up from 4), 3W (up from 2), BS3 (up from 2) 4+ save (down from 5+), 3A (up from 2) warrior who has a reroll of 1's instead of just an extra attack (meaning more hits in cc), sacs that are better, glands that are arguably better now.

If you want to go pure CC you could give them 2 sets of talons and reroll all your hits or go with boneswordx2 on them for raping power armor, be the same cost as a termie, retain your shooting and mop up termies in the assault.

New warrior brood cost of 9 with talons and devourers + 1 VC = 285pts

Old Warrior brood of 9 with talons and same stats and same loadout with immunity to ID but 1 less wound = 285pts.

The new warriors lost immunity to ID but are going to fair better against anything not S8 or higher. Living ammo offsets the S3 on the devourers but normally toxin was taken on shooty warriors to help boost the devs S to 4 so you could glance AV10. Devs are now S4 by default so can glance Av10 without needing to pay extra points for it (and sacs are better now than under the 4th edition codex).

You might think that you don't need melee upgrades and if you didn't old tal/dev warriors were cheaper considerably but their are many times I took cheap shooty warriors only to wish I had upgraded their melee abilities as well.


Now, we could give every warrior sacs and while not pumping S up anymore it gives rerolls to those warriors against everything T4 or less and allows them to wound wraithlords and DP's on 4's making them a lot deadlier melee wise for a termie + 5 in points cost against EVERYTHING.

naloth
01-01-2010, 17:14
You'd lose less warriors in the new codex because they have an extra wound against small arms.

You seem to miss that if you had 4e warriors with 2 wounds and a 4+ save vs that same amount of shooting you lose exactly the same number of 5e warriors. The 4e warriors take the same amount of wounds from the small arms (3 wounds) but only 1 from the melta for a total of 2 warriors. The 5e guys may have 3 wounds each but they still loose 2 warriors (1 from bolters) and 1 from melta.

I'd venture to say that the cost for the warriors will be similar with the 4e warriors having better shooting (S6 blast 24") and the 5e guys having better hth. 5e guys are less durable from long range, high S weapons and more durable from small arms fire. 5e warriors designed for hth will also suffer the "OMG a power fist" issue where 2 lucky hits will basically even out killing 6 opponents in hth.

Given the 'nerf to their primary weapons (now 18", not a blast, S4) and heavy weapon choices (VC has less S, Strangler has less range) I would say that's an overall loss for the army. Warriors are no longer effective in the ranged fire support role.

samiens
01-01-2010, 18:14
Maybe, but they can take objectives- that's a major boon for a unit in 5th ed, yet few have mentioned it...

sayles78
01-01-2010, 18:17
Maybe, but they can take objectives- that's a major boon for a unit in 5th ed, yet few have mentioned it...

Good point. I've been thinking about Dropping some shooty warriors onto objectives. Could be a very viable tactic for nid armies to come. I think the most successfull builds will be the ones that take advantage of Drop Spores and Deepstrike.

Vineas
01-01-2010, 18:31
Stop with the positives Samiens......it's only negative things in the new Tyranids. Haven't you read the other 2 or 3 whine threads?

:rolleyes:

Vepr
01-01-2010, 18:37
I am looking forward to trying the new warriors today. I really think adding an alpha to them will make them very nasty.

LockeWatts
01-01-2010, 18:38
You seem to miss that if you had 4e warriors with 2 wounds and a 4+ save vs that same amount of shooting you lose exactly the same number of 5e warriors. The 4e warriors take the same amount of wounds from the small arms (3 wounds) but only 1 from the melta for a total of 2 warriors. The 5e guys may have 3 wounds each but they still loose 2 warriors (1 from bolters) and 1 from melta.

10 marines in melta range, assuming a sarge and a heavy weapons carrier, put out 16 bolter shots and a melta. 10.7 hit, and 5.3 wound. That's 2.6666 unsaved. If you get unlucky, then a warrior dies. The melta has a 56% chance of instant killing another.

So on a bad day, you're gonna lose 2. On a good day, probably 1. It'll vary.

Old warriors take that same shooting out in the open, with the upgrades to make their statlines the same (+1 BS, +1 Sv, +1 WS, +1 I, Rending Claws and Scy Tals [Yes, I can have those for free on basic warriors in the new codex. Rending can replace the devourer for free.]), that makes them 34 points a piece.

Now, they take the same shooting, and will once again take 5.3 wounds, with 2.6 unsaved. Even on a good day you're gonna be losing a warrior there. Melta once again has a 56% chance of wounding, but it wont instantkill. However, it could put a second wound on the one that if you were unlucky took one earlier, once again resulting in two dead.

It's not an exact science, but they seem pretty comparable, with the new nids on a bad day doing the same as the old nids on a good day. Except the old ones are 4 points more expensive.

Stop complaining about the warriors, losing EW did not kill them. I've played 3 games with the new 'nids so far, every time I used warriors. Not once did they draw the attention of S8+ weapons. Those got focused very hard on my Flyrant, Mawlocs, and Tervigons.

I've faced Tau, Chaos, and Space Marines so far, and each of them found bigger things to worry about than my warriors. Probably because they weren't kitted out to be death machines. They were just standard Devourer and Scytal Warriors, with a barbed strangler. They put a bit of hurt out, but they weren't the biggest threat by far. They just walked slowly to an objective.

sayles78
01-01-2010, 18:56
I am looking forward to trying the new warriors today. I really think adding an alpha to them will make them very nasty.

Let us know how you get on with these mate please. Most exciting thing in new dex for me - Warriors and Alpha.

Shadowfax
01-01-2010, 20:05
I am looking forward to trying the new warriors today. I really think adding an alpha to them will make them very nasty.
Yup, I've come to the conclusion that the Alpha is totally awesome.

I've also been toying with the idea of using a regenerating Alpha, and always putting the first wound from shooting on him. It's a gamble, and I highly doubt it pays off from a mathematical standpoint, but I'm still drawn to it.



I've faced Tau, Chaos, and Space Marines so far, and each of them found bigger things to worry about than my warriors. Probably because they weren't kitted out to be death machines. They were just standard Devourer and Scytal Warriors, with a barbed strangler. They put a bit of hurt out, but they weren't the biggest threat by far. They just walked slowly to an objective.
Well, part of it is the armies you've been facing, apparently. I doubt either of the Marine players used a Vindicator. If they did, then they made a mistake by not focusing it on your Warriors.

S8+ large blasts are going to be the doom of Warriors. Those weapons suck at targeting Monstrous Creatures because doing so downgrades their ability to cause many wounds into merely a single wound. People talk about spreading the Warriors out to minimize the threat, but I contend that this is only possible in an ideal, rarely-realized situation. More often than not the spread of your unit is determined by other more important factors (eg. achieving majority cover, leaving LoS/assault routes open for other units)

Thanghul
01-01-2010, 21:29
If I didnt have sooo many mini's to paint (darn orks) I would soooo be doing a full on Warrior army.

Alphas are great. New Warriors are great.

Shadowfax
01-01-2010, 22:00
Another thought;

do you think there are any worthwhile hijinks to be had by combining the IC Alpha with non-Warrior units (assuming it's possible)? How about putting him in a Zoanthrope unit to absorb the S8 hits?

Vaktathi
01-01-2010, 22:05
As far as I can tell nothing prohibits an Alpha warrior from joining non-warrior units, he just really boosts warriors and doesn't for other units. Using him to take the first 2 ID shots for a unit of zoanthropes is probably a bit expensive if taken only for that, but you could do it.

Netfreakk
01-01-2010, 22:07
I don't know if I would want to use an Alpha warrior if it takes a HQ slot and only helps other warriors.

RampagingRavener
01-01-2010, 22:08
Another thought;

do you think there are any worthwhile hijinks to be had by combining the IC Alpha with non-Warrior units (assuming it's possible)? How about putting him in a Zoanthrope unit to absorb the S8 hits?

It's perfectly possible, but I'm not sure how much use it would be. Nothing the Alpha Warrior carries has good synergy with Warp Blast/Warp Lance, so you're paying 80-100 points to soak up three st8 shots - two of which should be saved by your Warp Field anyway. Assuming you have an Elites slot free it might be better just getting another Zoanthropes or two.


I don't know if I would want to use an Alpha warrior if it takes a HQ slot and only helps other warriors.

The buff to Warrior stats is just a nice little special rule. The main reason for taking an Alpha Warrior, is that it's almost as good as a Hive Tyrant in combat, half the price, and can be joined onto another Brood to give them many, many ablative wounds to hide behind.

Shadowfax
01-01-2010, 22:15
It's perfectly possible, but I'm not sure how much use it would be. Nothing the Alpha Warrior carries has good synergy with Warp Blast/Warp Lance, so you're paying 80-100 points to soak up three st8 shots - two of which should be saved by your Warp Field anyway. Assuming you have an Elites slot free it might be better just getting another Zoanthropes or two.

Yeah, it might not be the most efficient use of the Alpha.

Then again, if he saves two Zoey's from ID, he's more than covered his cost. Throw Regen on him for 10 points and it's possible he'll save their bacon even longer.

But, no doubt, a huge part of this strategy would be dependent on having an unused HQ slot open and already having your Elites filled.

Another wild idea in the same vein: How about joining him to Tyrant Guard (assuming they are no longer a retinue) in order to get him T6 on his way into combat (versus the T4 he would have running with Warriors)?

RampagingRavener
01-01-2010, 22:27
It's a nice idea, but Tyrant Guard are a retinue choice. So you've still got to drop the points on a Hive Tyrant.

That said, a Hive Tyrant isn't compelled to join his Guard; you can take one brood per Tyrant (including the Swarmlord), but that's the only restriction. It would be possible to take a Flying Hive Tyrant, unit of Tyrant Guard, and an Alpha Warrior. Then stick the Guard and Alpha together while the Flyrant goes off and dies in a hail of Missile Launchers.

Vaktathi
01-01-2010, 22:32
Another wild idea in the same vein: How about joining him to Tyrant Guard (assuming they are no longer a retinue) in order to get him T6 on his way into combat (versus the T4 he would have running with Warriors)?

You'd have to have a Hive Tyrant to take the Tyrant Guard, they are pretty much just like the Warlock entry in the Eldar codex. if you took the tyrant that's wouldn't be a bad spot to put the Alpha, but you'd need the tyrant first to take the tyrant guard.

naloth
01-01-2010, 22:57
It's not an exact science, but they seem pretty comparable, with the new nids on a bad day doing the same as the old nids on a good day. Except the old ones are 4 points more expensive.

To be fair, it's unlikely you would give them the same upgrades so it's likely they would be a similar cost but have better shooting.

Even so, the more likely situation is that you're facing 2 meltaguns among those 10 marines which shifts the situation back toward the old warriors. That's not a whine or complaint it's an observation. The numbers we're running put the old warriors usually as (if not more) durable than the new ones with an extra wound.




Stop complaining about the warriors, losing EW did not kill them. I've played 3 games with the new 'nids so far, every time I used warriors. Not once did they draw the attention of S8+ weapons. Those got focused very hard on my Flyrant, Mawlocs, and Tervigons.

I never said the loss of EW killed them. I've have repeatedly stated that they have lost some ranged effectiveness and gained some new CC options. That's also easily to show objectively with statistics (specifically 6" less range and -1 S or more on a lot of the weapons).

Now my opinion (which also isn't an whine, just my opinion), is that Warriors would are good at CC with limited anti-infantry shooting. For range, they don't have the range and volume of firepower that most units bring for that cost (or even what they did under 4e). For CC, they have issues with S8 weaponry which can rapidly rack up the wounds forcing "No Retreat" roles. IMO, 'Nids didn't need more CC options for dealing with troops - hormagaunts and stealers fill that role more effectively for the point cost.



They put a bit of hurt out, but they weren't the biggest threat by far. They just walked slowly to an objective.
Without a battle report it will be hard to understand why (during objective taking missions) your opponents decided to leave the scoring units untouched.

IJW
01-01-2010, 23:05
Even so, the more likely situation is that you're facing 2 meltaguns among those 10 marines
Plague Marines, Havoks, Chosen, Space Wolves, Sternguard with combi-meltas, Command Squads. I think that's about it in terms of Marine units that can take more than one Meltagun.

Meltagun plus Krak/Lascannon etc, sure.

Vaktathi
01-01-2010, 23:43
Plague Marines, Havoks, Chosen, Space Wolves, Sternguard with combi-meltas, Command Squads. I think that's about it in terms of Marine units that can take more than one Meltagun.

Meltagun plus Krak/Lascannon etc, sure.

basic CSM's too.

Shadowfax
01-01-2010, 23:52
DA vets, maybe?

IJW
02-01-2010, 00:49
True. Still, a melta and a something else is more likely than two melta.

naloth
02-01-2010, 04:06
True. Still, a melta and a something else is more likely than two melta.

To be fair I suppose I might be biased since I've been facing off against Space Wolves for the last 2-3 games and I have a regular CSM opponent. It seems there's always a couple of double melta strike teams (often Drop Podded in) w/SW and the CSM guy loads up on it.

Add SM bikers to the list. I don't see them that often but they exist.

With CSM there's Chosen, CSM (troops), Plague Marines, Raptors, Bikers, and Havoks. Lots of melta is *very* popular w/CSM here.

With SW there's Grey Wolves and Bloodclaws (though I've never faced a 15 man Bloodclaw unit yet).


True. Still, a melta and a something else is more likely than two melta.

That will depend on what you're facing. SW are a lot more popular here than vanilla marines are currently. I suspect it's because they are perceived as more powerful.

catbarf
02-01-2010, 05:20
Keep in mind that meltaguns are short ranged. If your opponent is close enough to use a meltagun, he is close enough for you to shoot with your Warriors and then charge. You might lose a Warrior or two due to the meltagun, but if your opponent is giving you a free opportunity to avoid lascannons and do what Nids do best then by all means let him use his meltaguns.

big squig
02-01-2010, 05:37
Plague Marines, Havoks, Chosen, Space Wolves, Sternguard with combi-meltas, Command Squads. I think that's about it in terms of Marine units that can take more than one Meltagun.

Meltagun plus Krak/Lascannon etc, sure.
All those squads are also going to have a powerfist.

darks23
02-01-2010, 06:36
Hey does anyone know if you can use the tyrant's outflake power on itself?

Vepr
02-01-2010, 09:31
After running some small games the warriors seem to hold their own. The devourer is not bad but I think for the points the death spitter is a good upgrade. Not as nasty as they used to be but still decent. Now they are like a short range Big Shoota but accurate especially with the Alpha upgrade. Podded in they can be nasty as long as you don't drop them in the open where multiple squads can open up on them. The bonesword upgrade on the Alpha seems like a must. With enough wounds on a squad it can take out the power fist or claw due to the ID test before it can even be used.

They are not going to rule the battlefield but they are solid if you can avoid Str 8 plus blasts. In the 4 games against IG, Orks, and Marines they paid for themselves in both combat and the attention they drew except for one game.

The only time they got splatted was due to a vindicator. Four of them along with the pod went up in a cloud of smoke and fire and then another warrior went down to the heavy weapons team right by the vindicator. On my pod in I deviated right out into the open instead of behind some ruins like I wanted... such is life.

On a side not the standard "We are going to park this transport sideways and use it as cover formation" does not work great when there is a Mawloc around. :D

IJW
02-01-2010, 09:33
All those squads are also going to have a powerfist.
They're Space Marines. Of course they are going to have Powerfists.

sayles78
02-01-2010, 10:45
They're Space Marines. Of course they are going to have Powerfists.

2 attacks with fist, miss with one, 16.666% chance of failing to wound with the other. Aint so bad.

There has to be casualties - and if my recent battles are anything to go by - LOTS of casualties! Everything seems to get killed lately. We keep having games where only a couple of models survive - and that makes for good rumbles!!!

samiens
02-01-2010, 11:18
Stop with the positives Samiens......it's only negative things in the new Tyranids. Haven't you read the other 2 or 3 whine threads?

:rolleyes:

lol, sadly that's pretty much the general feeling. I don't personally understand it- I just don't struggle with top end Tyranids now and my GF plays them so I do know an awful lot about them and the rumours sound like they've changed to a more varied and competitive list. It depends how good you are at killing monstrous creatures at the moment- admittedly I've had a lot of practice but Carnifexes just don't scare me at the moment- them getting a plasma cannon (admittedly for an overly large points hike) does a little. More to the point- in warriors nids may finally have unit to actually take objectives

pyrovore
02-01-2010, 11:32
i know i am going to be using a few more warriors than i used to because of the move to the troops section and going to use it with an alpha warrior with regeneration to take any missile or lascannon hits

SteelTitan
02-01-2010, 12:46
More to the point- in warriors nids may finally have unit to actually take objectives

I can somehow see your point but i also somehow do not feel comfortable with 30+ models with a 4+ save just sitting on an objective, not doing much and still easily shot down by anything heavier than a bolter.

They could of course go to ground for a 3+ but then still it is a 100+ points unit doing very little. Considering their speed (low) and ranged weaponry (also low) it's not like you can redeploy them fast as the end of the battle approaches or keep them back on home objectives while they shoot away at far away targets ...

My inconvenience regarding this topic might have to do with the fact that i also play death guard and a T5 3+ Sv 4+ FnP model on objectives feels safer than a 30 point 4+ save model :)

itcamefromthedeep
02-01-2010, 14:05
I do agree that force weapons should actually be a bit more effective, and to be honest I was glad to see that they'll be able to kill most Nid MCs now. However, given the importance of the Tyrant, I think it, if anything, deserves it.
Rippers deserve it more. ID immunity both makes sense and makes Rippers playable. It's a house rule at my LGG that looks to stay for this edition. I have to wonder at why Rippers appear to have taken a hit with this edition. They're the last unit I expected to get hit with the nerfbat.

---

Warriors will do fine. They suffer from being a good target for a lot of weapons, but so are a lot of Troops choices. While Warriors may be vulnerable to Battle Cannons, so are Tactical squads in the open. Warriors aren't all that much more vulnerable.

I've run some numbers and rolled some dice. It looks like Warriors can actually function against Slugga Boyz. Toxin looks to be a really good choice for them, allowing them to simply mow down opposing light and medium infantry. The klaw nob is mean, but 5 Warriors can inflict a lot of casualties in a turn. 10 marines with a fist make for a fair fight against 5 Warriors with toxin, believe it or not. If the marines decided to bring a power weapon instead, it starts to get ugly for the Emperor's Finest.

As far as Troops units go, Warriors are solid.

---

Competing for those 6 Troops slots are Warriors, Termagants, Hormagaunts, Genestealers, Tervigons, and Rippers. Like all good Tyranid players and their opponents, we can ignore the Rippers. The competition between the rest of them is actually pretty fierce. This makes me think that "mobile cover save" duty will shift to Gargoyles once the Troops slots are filled.

PhalanxLord
02-01-2010, 18:28
I used to be quite anti-5th ed warriors, but they actually seem quite good now that I've had a lot of time to think on them and have thought out some strategies and stuff. You can have a unit of 5 warriors with boneswords, devs, and a BS for 215pts. It has adequate shooting, but its CC is good enough to be a threat. Its expensive and deadly enough that it can draw fire from your MCs, but they are also rather easy to give cover saves to and they are pretty hard to kill with light arms. In combat, losing due to a bad PF attack isn't much of an issue. They have enough wounds to eat up NR losses pretty easily and due to the BS warrior you can do some wound allocation things to make them last a slight bit longer. They also have enough high WS PW attacks that charging them will generally not be a good idea. You can assault them with LC terminators or a LC biker command squad and they won't mind that much. The units of 5 that I want to use can be charged by TH/SS terminators and kill an average of ~2 (1.6667), which while not great, isn't too horrible compared to some units for the same price. Biker nobz or TWC? They'll laugh you off the board even after being charged for less points then you paid to take them.

If the opponent tries to take them out with MLs and lascannons, then thats a good thing. Warriors are easier to give cover to and a unit of 5 warriors will take a lot more lascannons and MLs to kill than an MC that cost around roughly the same points. If they go to ground on an objective then odds are the only way the opponent will be able to shift them without pouring an army's worth of firepower into them is to tank shock them. 15 wounds with 3+ cover saves that will tear you apart in close combat (or at least do decently in it) isn't something to laugh about. Give them FNP with a tervigon and they won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

I agree with itcamefromthedeep. Warriors are a lot more solid than people are giving them credit for.

Ventus
02-01-2010, 19:24
That's good because the model is great and I plan to use quite a few since I only will have 2 or maybe 3 MCs. I might even try flying warriors (I guess gargoyle wings would work for them).

Inach
05-01-2010, 09:45
Acouple of questions about the warriors (or their abilities):
- Boneswords, will it cause ID versus Eternal warrior?
- Injectors, will it cause ID versus Eternal warrior?
- Wound allocation, when a warrior squad of 5 warriors receive (lets say) 4 Str 8 wounds. Aren't the first 3 wounds going to 1 model and the last wound to another model (no more wound allocation possible), killing 'only' 2 models?

Gottkaiser
05-01-2010, 10:08
Acouple of questions about the warriors (or their abilities):
- Boneswords, will it cause ID versus Eternal warrior?

No, normal ID

- Injectors, will it cause ID versus Eternal warrior?

No, normal ID

- Wound allocation, when a warrior squad of 5 warriors receive (lets say) 4 Str 8 wounds. Aren't the first 3 wounds going to 1 model and the last wound to another model (no more wound allocation possible), killing 'only' 2 models?
No, ID kills "complete" Models, fragging 4 models in this case. So much for the bonus wound...

Darkangeldentist
05-01-2010, 10:34
Whilst I am still looking forward to the new Tyranid codex and the move to troops for warriors is a very good thing most of the actual rules changes do appear to be bad.

The threat of instant death from ranged weapons is not what upsets me though. At least there they can get saves from cover and/or turn up from reserve now. It's powerfists and combat. Giving warriors an extra wound makes each powerfist wound suffered that much more significant.

It will be highly unlikey for warriors to win combat against units with powerfists, worse there is very, very little tyranids can do about it.

The reduction to the deathspitter sounds disappointing. They were overpriced when they first came out, then 5th edition made them a bit too good. (Not amazingly so though.) I will miss them.

I will miss the immunity to instant death but I would always have preferred them to make warriors T5.

Inach
05-01-2010, 10:43
Thanks Gottkaiser, was searching for a while on the web, couldn't find the answers.

Gottkaiser
05-01-2010, 11:36
You're welcome.

@Dentist: I think with twin boneswords they could really work in cc. A PF would still hurt them, but with 3 attacks, WS 5 and power weapons, they should be able to deal a lot of damage. Throw in some toxin sacks and you have a unit which will be able to deal a whole lot of punch to anybody willing to mess with them in cc. In addition, they will bring a soft smile to the face of any IG plaer fielding a Leman Russ, Demolisher or Basilisk ;)

itcamefromthedeep
05-01-2010, 14:32
It will be highly unlikey for warriors to win combat against units with powerfists, worse there is very, very little tyranids can do about it.
That depends. A brood of 5 Warriors with talons and toxin (the way a lot our models are set up at the moment) can fight and win against 20 Slugga Boyz, even when assualted. Not regularly, but the Warriors aren't just screwed. I say 20 Boyz because the Warriors' guns (deahtspitters, strangler) can cause casualties beforehand. 3s to hit with a reroll on 1s and 4s to wound with a reroll goes through Boyz like a hot knife through butter. Similarly, 5 Warriors with bone swords and devourers can go through Tac Marines with alarming alacrity. They'll probably lose some models to the fist, but the fist in no way decides the combat in favor of the Marines. In fact, all the fist does is make it an actual fight. If the Tac Marines go with a power weapon (not uncommon where I play) then the combat gets really ugly for the Marines. Even 5 un-upgraded Warriors can win that fight.

Don't forget your combined charges. Engage the fist with Hormagaunts.

EDIT:

In addition, they will bring a soft smile to the face of any IG plaer fielding a Leman Russ, Demolisher or Basilisk ;)
I've been toying with the idea of Drop Spores. They intrigue me because they bring S6 and S5 weaponry and don't have to worry aobut scattering onto enemy units (being likea Drop Pod and all). This allows them to try to land directly behind a transport and shoot it up with its tentacles and the twin deathspitters you can buy for the model. If something like a Chimera or Wave Serpent gets wrecked or immobilized, then the passengers may be stuck with a forced disembarkation. That's big.

Of all the new units, I'm looking at the Drop Spores and Primes as the dark horse transport-killers.

I mention it because Basilisks are also quite vulnerable to drop spores. Moreso, in fact, because they care about shaken and stunned results. Leave the Zoanthropes inside to deal with the Leman Russes.

naloth
05-01-2010, 15:04
That depends. A brood of 5 Warriors with talons and toxin (the way a lot our models are set up at the moment) can fight and win against 20 Slugga Boyz, even when assualted. Not regularly, but the Warriors aren't just screwed. I say 20 Boyz because the Warriors' guns (deahtspitters, strangler) can cause casualties beforehand.

5 Warriors w/talons and toxin: 15 attacks: 10 hits (first roll) + 2.5 (re-roll) = 12.5 hits. Half wound 6.25 (first roll) + 3.125 (re-roll) = 9.4ish wounds. Of those, 1.5 should save. So let's call it 8 wounds total. 11 boyz attack with 4 attacks each hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+, and the Warriors saving on 4+ (1/8th). That's 5 (closer to 5.5) wounds from the regular guys. Then the PK nob attacks with his 4 attacks. Half hit, those should wound, no save. That's 2 dead warriors (6 wounds) and combat lost by 3ish causing 3 "no retreat" saves (or about another wound). Combat total: orks lose 8 models worth about 54 points and remain at a decent fighting strength. Warriors lose 4 models (80% of the squad) worth about as much as the total Ork mob and will die a horrible death next turn. How is this "not screwed"?


Similarly, 5 Warriors with bone swords and devourers can go through Tac Marines with alarming alacrity. They'll probably lose some models to the fist, but the fist in no way decides the combat in favor of the Marines.

This seems to be the most effective way to use warriors. Eliminating shooting and presuming the warriors get the assault (no mean feat considering Marines have loads of fast transports and the infantry moves as fast as the warriors) you have 20 attacks where 2/3s hit, 1/2 wound, no saves vs power weapons. That's 6.6 wounds. With the same I the marines get to fight back anyway (1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/2 save) for about 1 wound (this is doubled if you're fighting CSM or SW since they get extra hand weapons). The Power Fist sarge attacks (1/2 hit, 5/6 kill) likely killing a warrior. The warrior squad is at 80% original strength while the marines are down to 1/3 fighting strength and will likely die before hurting the warriors again. Of course, this is a very pricey Warrior unit (45ish per guy?) and it's not really good against anything but MEQs.


If the Tac Marines go with a power weapon (not uncommon where I play) then the combat gets really ugly for the Marines. Even 5 un-upgraded Warriors can win that fight.

Doing the above math, 5 baseline warriors against 10 marines w/just a power weapon. If the warriors get the assault 20 attacks, 2/3s hit, 1/2 wound, 2/3 saved gives you 2ish wounds. CSM and SW will get that on average and the power weapon will often give you another wound. Take away the assault and the nids average less than 2 wounds. At best it's a fairly even fight.



Don't forget your combined charges. Engage the fist with Hormagaunts.

While I encourage synergy, it's also fair to point out that you're already engaging enemy units with more expensive 'nid units. Throwing more points into the fray is basically suggesting that even though we've already sent a 200 point unit to kill a 160 points unit, we should also be throwing another 100 points to get the job done right.



Of all the new units, I'm looking at the Drop Spores and Primes as the dark horse transport-killers.
That's a big play and see. Deviation can lose you the game if you're counting on Spores to break transports.

Vepr
05-01-2010, 15:23
I have been playing around with warriors by themselves and it looks like an Alpha is almost a requirement. It is a hefty price increase but the WS and BS is nice along with the added punch the Alpha brings.

itcamefromthedeep
05-01-2010, 15:36
How is this "not screwed"?Because a lot depends on the klaw, which is unreliable. If the klaw only manages to kill one a turn (or it whiffs), then the Warriors can come out on top. That's what rolling the dice out informed me. If the klaw fails a bunch, the Warriors take it.

Imagine if the game came down to a single roll of the die: 3+ and you win. It is by no means certain that you'll win that game. You'll win it on average, but not every time (not by any stretch of the imagination).

Take Zoanthropes shooting at a Land Raider with a Librarian in it. On average, you'll pass the psychic test. On average, you'll beat the psychic hood (barely). On average, you'll hit the Raider. On average, you'll cause a penetrating hit. From there, it's better than even money that you'll at least immobilize it. So, you could say that average rolls should get you at least an immobilized result. The actual chances of that happening, though, are slim.

When you do your mathammer for complicated unit interactions, what you're looking for is the probability of an outcome, not the median outcome or the mode outcome.


At best it's a fairly even fight.
That's all I was talking about when I said that even 5 un-upgraded Warriors can win that fight. It's not reliable, but entirely possible.


While I encourage synergy, it's also fair to point out that you're already engaging enemy units with more expensive 'nid units. Throwing more points into the fray is basically suggesting that even though we've already sent a 200 point unit to kill a 160 points unit, we should also be throwing another 100 points to get the job done right.Yes. Absolutely. You win games by fighting dirty, applying 300 points of force against 150 points of your opponent's force to help make sure that you walk out that fight with 250 points of troops left. When you fight something, apply overwhelming force (kill it dead).

If you have a 5-man Terminator Assault Squad in your lines that you need to kill, you don't stop shooting at it once you hit 200 points of shooter. You hit them until they die, and that is often by no means a bad deal.

If you have 60 Hormagaunts to throw a Bloodletter pack in the open, do so (circumstances allowing). Your opponent will lose a lot of points in that fight, and you won't. That's a good deal.

totgeboren
05-01-2010, 16:05
I don't know if other have pointed this out already, but I was thinking about the comparison with the old Ogryns that some have voiced.
T4 and W3 didn't work at all on those models, because of instant kill. But that's because losing one whole model in such a unit ment they would probably flee, and then get killed by the sweep.

Though Warriors have a similar profile, for them, losing a model to instant death means much less.
If they would have lost the combat by 1, they now lose by 4. Meaning they take about 2 wounds extra instead of 1 wound extra. Thats not something that will wipe the unit outright.

A slight win will turn into a slight loss, but still it will not destroy the unit outright.

Just a though...

naloth
05-01-2010, 16:19
Because a lot depends on the klaw, which is unreliable. If the klaw only manages to kill one a turn (or it whiffs), then the Warriors can come out on top. That's what rolling the dice out informed me. If the klaw fails a bunch, the Warriors take it.

Betting against average is how the house makes money. The warriors are screwed if they figure they can beat the house. That isn't to say you won't hear stories of the Warriors winning. After all, you hear stories about people who win the lottery too. It's just not a good bet.

The Warriors are screwed when facing Slugga boyz. Genestealers are ok. Hormagaunts work best if you can get the assault.



When you do your mathammer for complicated unit interactions, what you're looking for is the probability of an outcome, not the median outcome or the mode outcome.

Actually I look at all three. It's nice to know how the odds are stacked before you jump into a situation.



That's all I was talking about when I said that even 5 un-upgraded Warriors can win that fight. It's not reliable, but entirely possible.

True, but by the same token a gretchin squad could take out a Terminator squad. It's not reliable but it's possible.



Yes. Absolutely. You win games by fighting dirty, applying 300 points of force against 150 points of your opponent's force to help make sure that you walk out that fight with 250 points of troops left. When you fight something, apply overwhelming force (kill it dead).

Have you been talking to my opponents? ;)

I don't disagree with that. What we were discussing, though, was how the 'nids match up to opponents. Suggesting 300 points of 'nids are good for taking out 150 points of an opponent is hardly an endorsement.


If you have 60 Hormagaunts to throw a Bloodletter pack in the open, do so (circumstances allowing). Your opponent will lose a lot of points in that fight, and you won't. That's a good deal.

That's quite similar to what I'm saying. Orks can throw a cheaper unit into the CC warriors and cause a lot more points of damage than the Warriors will do. Likewise, a basic tac squad can tie up a Warrior squad that's worth more (if they don't have boneswords) for a very long time and even win a fair amount of the time.

Presuming that your opponent won't use the same tactics (swamp, overwhelm where possible, use more cost effective troops) is silly.

Vepr
05-01-2010, 16:35
I am going to use warriors but they do appear to suffer from the same syndrome the carnifex in this new dex. Jacks of all trades master of none and not cheap. Warriors can about do it all now short of busting AV14 but they are not really great at any one thing.

I am thinking of podding them in with an Alpha for objectives. Decent shooting and decent CC troops sitting on an objective likely with cover.

PhalanxLord
05-01-2010, 16:59
5 Warriors w/talons and toxin: 15 attacks: 10 hits (first roll) + 2.5 (re-roll) = 12.5 hits. Half wound 6.25 (first roll) + 3.125 (re-roll) = 9.4ish wounds. Of those, 1.5 should save. So let's call it 8 wounds total. 11 boyz attack with 4 attacks each hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+, and the Warriors saving on 4+ (1/8th). That's 5 (closer to 5.5) wounds from the regular guys. Then the PK nob attacks with his 4 attacks. Half hit, those should wound, no save. That's 2 dead warriors (6 wounds) and combat lost by 3ish causing 3 "no retreat" saves (or about another wound). Combat total: orks lose 8 models worth about 54 points and remain at a decent fighting strength. Warriors lose 4 models (80% of the squad) worth about as much as the total Ork mob and will die a horrible death next turn. How is this "not screwed"?

Your math is wrong, for one thing (7/9hits would be 11.33 for a single set of talons, or a bit over 13 for two sets). Not only that but wouldn't the orks shoot first and wouldn't they normall get shot at first? Unless they were in a battlewagon the nids would probably hit the unit with at least one round of dev shots (though they would get hit by one round of sluggas in return). Taking those into account we have:

Warriors shoot: 3 dead orks.

Orks shoot: 1 wound to the warriors.
Orks charge
Warriors attack: 7 orks dead
Orks attack: 4.5 wounds from the sluggas and 6 wounds from the nob, so 3 dead warriors.
Warriors take another couple of wounds and lose another warrior.

One warrior vs 10 orks including a nob.
Warrior: 1 ork dead.
Orks: Kill the final warrior.

So one a one-on-one fight its not that great, but how often will we have a one-on-one fight anyways?



This seems to be the most effective way to use warriors. Eliminating shooting and presuming the warriors get the assault (no mean feat considering Marines have loads of fast transports and the infantry moves as fast as the warriors) you have 20 attacks where 2/3s hit, 1/2 wound, no saves vs power weapons. That's 6.6 wounds. With the same I the marines get to fight back anyway (1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/2 save) for about 1 wound (this is doubled if you're fighting CSM or SW since they get extra hand weapons). The Power Fist sarge attacks (1/2 hit, 5/6 kill) likely killing a warrior. The warrior squad is at 80% original strength while the marines are down to 1/3 fighting strength and will likely die before hurting the warriors again. Of course, this is a very pricey Warrior unit (45ish per guy?) and it's not really good against anything but MEQs.

6 Warriors with just scy-tals and devs vs MEQ (so the marines have ~15-30pts more than the warriors, but the warriors are a 2-box size so these are good numbers to use):
Warriors shoot: 1.5 marines dead (lets say 1)
Warrior charge: 3 marines dead.
Marines: 1 wound + 1 PF kill
Warriors lose by 1.

Next turn:
Warriors: 2 kills
Marines: 1 wound + 1 PF kill
Warrior lose by 2 (down to 3 warriors).

Next turn:
Warriors: 1 kill
Marines: 1 PF kill

ETC.

Pretty much the two units are fairly evenly matched and will in the end kill each other.

On the other hand if you used boneswords and too 5 warriors instead of 6 to compensate for the higher cost (and both units would be roughly equal cost-> 200pts vs 195pts+heavy+special), then it goes like this:

Warriors shoot: 1 dead marine
Warrior charge: 6-7 dead marines
Marines: 4 wounds to the warriors (evil PF)
Warriors win, marines lose another marine (so the unit is down to ~2-3 guys)

Next turn:
Warriors: 4 more kills, marine unit is wiped.



Doing the above math, 5 baseline warriors against 10 marines w/just a power weapon. If the warriors get the assault 20 attacks, 2/3s hit, 1/2 wound, 2/3 saved gives you 2ish wounds. CSM and SW will get that on average and the power weapon will often give you another wound. Take away the assault and the nids average less than 2 wounds. At best it's a fairly even fight.


It would really be 6 if you think about it (equal points, and 6 will likely be more common than 5 unless you want a 200pt unit with boneswords or something because boxes come with 3), and your math is wrong anyways as with scy-tals warriors have a 7/9 chance to hit. While naked warriors might not be able to take on SW or CSM, give them boneswords and you'll be able to crush those units (I've run calcs using SW making a counter-attack with a guy with MotW). Either way, if you look at my calcs then you can see most of the damage was done by the PF. Without the PF and with a PW and vs even 5 naked warriors it would look more like this:

Devs: kill 1
Warriors Charge: 2.59 dead, lets say 3 as it was 1.25 dev kills.
Marines strike back: 1+0.75~2
Marines lose.

Next turn:
Warriors kill 2
Mairines strike back: 1.5 wounds, so lets round to 2.
Tie, and down one warrior.

Warriors: 1.5555
Marines: ~1 wound
Warrior stand a better chance at winning.

At this point warriors would win in the end.



While I encourage synergy, it's also fair to point out that you're already engaging enemy units with more expensive 'nid units. Throwing more points into the fray is basically suggesting that even though we've already sent a 200 point unit to kill a 160 points unit, we should also be throwing another 100 points to get the job done right.


That's a big play and see. Deviation can lose you the game if you're counting on Spores to break transports.

More expensive? a 10 man SM unit is 195pts and you're sending a 150pt unit against them. Against the orks it would be a 175pt unit vs a 160pt unit (nob upgrade+PK+bosspole+20boyz). 175pts vs 160pts isn't a huge difference (and you tear them apart if you get the charge as opposed to them charging you) while with the SM unit you're fighting a unit that costs at least 33.33% more than you and their only saving grace is their PF. After the first turn of combat they will be taking enough wounds that they will be forced to start making saves on the sarge so he won't last as long as we generally assume he would.

And one last thing: throwing more points at something is a good idea. If I can charge a 200pt unit of orks with 400pts of warriors, then odds are I'll crush those orks within a round or two and then be able to crush another 200pt ork unit the next turn, and then another a turn after that. If you can hit a unit with twice its points in models then odds are you will crush it with far less casulties than if you sent in the same amount of points, and in the end that enables you to kill a lot more than you would be able to if you played fair by using an even number of points. Think of it this way: a 200pt unit of LC assault terminators would lose or at least take heavy losses against a 30-man ork unit, even if they charged. A 400pt unit of LC terminators, on the other hand, have enough firepower that they could got kill another 30 man ork unit after they finish with the first one.

It doesn't really matter if my unit can't beat an opponent's unit one-on-one if at twice the points it can kill two of the opponent's units one at a time.

Also, I doubt he's using landing spores as his anti-tank. Its probably more accurate to say he's using them to supplement his anti-tank because he's taking them anyways so he might as well get some extra use out of them.

itcamefromthedeep
05-01-2010, 17:19
I do think this is a helpful discussion for the thread to have.

Betting against average is how the house makes money. The warriors are screwed if they figure they can beat the house. That isn't to say you won't hear stories of the Warriors winning. After all, you hear stories about people who win the lottery too. It's just not a good bet.
If even money is a bad bet, then Boyz staring across the table at Warriors is just as much of a bad bet. 30 sluggas on 5 Warriors with deathspitters, toxin and a strangler is roughly even money. That fight isn't an easy win for the Boyz, and it isn't an easy win for the Warriors either.


The Warriors are screwed when facing Slugga boyz. Genestealers are ok. Hormagaunts work best if you can get the assault.
15 Genestealers against 30 Boyz is ugly. First, the Genestealers need to come to the Boyz, where Slugga Boyz must rush headlong at Warriors because they lose the ranged duel. Assuming planet bowling ball or that you can pull the Orks out of terrain, the Genestealers are okay for the job. Both units can do the job, but they can expect to take big losses for doing it. If either Genestealers or Warriors want to win that fight efficiently, they'll want some help softening up the Boyz.

The way to get Hormagaunts to beat Boyz efficiently is with Nerve Shock. With that up, the Hormagaunts can beat their own number handily, and even beat Boyz that outnumber them.

NOTE: Tyranid infantry suck against Shoota Boyz. There are virtually no good fights there. Devilgaunts can win the ranged duel, but that ain't good enough considering how they fold to assaults. Bring Biovores, who will do a good job of whittling them down. Really, people, bring long range anti-infantry fire. This will be harder without the Carnifex, but it needs to happen.


True, but by the same token a gretchin squad could take out a Terminator squad. It's not reliable but it's possible.
There's a long way between even money (naked Warriors vs nearly-naked Tac squad) and screwed.


I don't disagree with that. What we were discussing, though, was how the 'nids match up to opponents. Suggesting 300 points of 'nids are good for taking out 150 points of an opponent is hardly an endorsement.
What you're looking for is points efficiency. If you trade 5 Warriors for a Tac Squad with a fist, then that's not so hot. The winner will probably walk out quite bloodied. If, however, you invest another 100 points of Hormagaunts in that fight, then you can kill that Tac squad for maybe the loss of a few Gaunts and a Warrior. In the first instance you're trading ~200 points for ~200 points, with a ~50/50 chance of success. In the second you're trading ~50 points of your troops for ~200 of his, reliably, and that's how you win games. The hard part is, of course, making that fight happen.


Presuming that your opponent won't use the same tactics (swamp, overwhelm where possible, use more cost effective troops) is silly.
If you want to win against an opponent with a decent list, I guess you'll just have to outplay them. :D

naloth
05-01-2010, 17:34
Your math is wrong, for one thing (7/9hits would be 11.33 for a single set of talons, or a bit over 13 for two sets).

Regardless of the actual numbers the end result is the same. Warriors consistently lose to slugga boyz.



<snip>
Pretty much the two units are fairly evenly matched and will in the end kill each other.

Hence the "at best it's an even match". Generally the warriors will lose but maim the tac squad. The only way around that is a good first turn for the power fist and that breaks really well for the SMs.



On the other hand if you used boneswords and too 5 warriors instead of 6 to compensate for the higher cost (and both units would be roughly equal cost-> 200pts vs 195pts+heavy+special), then it goes like this:
<snip>
Warriors: 4 more kills, marine unit is wiped.

Yup, that tracks with out I figured it too. A 5 man warrior squad w/boneswords is good against MEQs. The counter analysis is it's much less efficient against GEQ and basically suicide against Orks.



Either way, if you look at my calcs then you can see most of the damage was done by the PF. Without the PF and with a PW and vs even 5 naked warriors it would look more like this:

Agreed, but that isn't lost on most SM players. That's why most tac units get the PF.



More expensive? a 10 man SM unit is 195pts and you're sending a 150pt unit against them. Against the orks it would be a 175pt unit vs a 160pt unit (nob upgrade+PK+bosspole+20boyz). 175pts vs 160pts isn't a huge difference (and you tear them apart if you get the charge as opposed to them charging you)
Sure, you can take the unit if you get the assault. Of course there's still the excellent chance that the PK will maim your warrior unit.



while with the SM unit you're fighting a unit that costs at least 33.33% more than you and their only saving grace is their PF. After the first turn of combat they will be taking enough wounds that they will be forced to start making saves on the sarge so he won't last as long as we generally assume he would.

Aside from taking Boneswords, how will the sarge be forced to make saves? Figuring units at full S, you'll run out of Warriors about the same time he runs out of other marines to take the wounds.



And one last thing: throwing more points at something is a good idea.

Sure, that's why your opponent will try to do it to you. The point is that saying you can mop up 200 points of opponents with overwhelming force from 400 points does very little to show how efficient your units are at getting their job done. Worse, it implies that you need 400 points to wipe out 200 points effectively. That's not good unless you convince your opponents to let you field twice as many points...



It doesn't really matter if my unit can't beat an opponent's unit one-on-one if at twice the points it can kill two of the opponent's units one at a time.

Sure it does. It means you've effectively spotted your opponent half your points. If you're out matched at any single engagement what do you think his troops will be trying to do? There's a very simple chess analogy: trade for equal value (or better) when you're ahead. If you're up by a rook and you can trade off everything else for equal value you'll end up with pieces where your opponent has none.



Also, I doubt he's using landing spores as his anti-tank. Its probably more accurate to say he's using them to supplement his anti-tank because he's taking them anyways so he might as well get some extra use out of them.
Fair enough. Offhand, the pie plate sounds better than the lashes but I figure I'll go for anti-infantry.

I'm a little dismayed that the Spore is rumored to be T4. That's a very easy kill point - especially compared to AV12 pods.

razormasticator
05-01-2010, 17:37
I highly doubt the new sculpts for the warriors carry a bonesword or lash wip on the sprue either.

naloth
05-01-2010, 18:29
I do think this is a helpful discussion for the thread to have.Sure, so do I. Sizing up things helps figure out what's a good or bad tactical idea.



15 Genestealers against 30 Boyz is ugly. First, the Genestealers need to come to the Boyz, where Slugga Boyz must rush headlong at Warriors because they lose the ranged duel. Assuming planet bowling ball or that you can pull the Orks out of terrain, the Genestealers are okay for the job. Both units can do the job, but they can expect to take big losses for doing it. If either Genestealers or Warriors want to win that fight efficiently, they'll want some help softening up the Boyz.

Generally I have the edge to genestealers because they can stack the deck in their favor. Genestealers should have a placement advantage w/Infiltrate (outflank) so they probably wouldn't engage unless they had a clear advantage. Giving them the assault w/o cover being an issue for the boyz <or> where they couldn't get many boyz into the assault greatly affects the outcome. It's really hard to position 30 boyz to respond to an assault without bunching them to be pasted by biovores. Genestealers also have a longer (13-18") assault range making them more likely to get the assault than Warriors. Still, I'd probably run fewer genestealers with a Broodlord as a good "all-comers" unit and leave the 30 man unit to the biovores.


The way to get Hormagaunts to beat Boyz efficiently is with Nerve Shock. With that up, the Hormagaunts can beat their own number handily, and even beat Boyz that outnumber them.

Having run the numbers it looks like Hormagaunts can reliably win without Nerve Shock provided they assault, strike first, and wound on 4s. Even so, a massive foot slogging unit is better left to the biovores.



NOTE: Tyranid infantry suck against Shoota Boyz. There are virtually no good fights there. Devilgaunts can win the ranged duel, but that ain't good enough considering how they fold to assaults. Bring Biovores, who will do a good job of whittling them down. Really, people, bring long range anti-infantry fire.

I'll be using both Devilgaunts and Biovores as fire support.

Edit: added wounding on 4s to hormaguants... I figure they will have TS.

Shadowfax
05-01-2010, 18:32
There are no new sculpts.

razormasticator
05-01-2010, 18:57
There are no new sculpts.

Thats what I thought. Maybe they will do a bits sprue release, sort of like they did with BT's and DA's. adding boneswords and lashwhips.

It doesnt make sense that the two most effective combos of weapons for warriors game wise wont be included in the sprues for the models themselves.

Unless the info we have isnt 100% accurate at this point.

Shadowfax
05-01-2010, 19:05
That would be cool. They could also put Stranglewebs and Spike Rifles on the sprues. But I can't see it ever happening with a non-Marine release.

HiveJive
05-01-2010, 19:06
So, am I right in the consensus that warriors are now:

Pro:
Even more a jack of all trades then before
Have the power to take objectives since they are now a troop choice
Have a few more CC options then before including a "power weapon" option
Have a few increased stats (including an extra wound which I am gathering is both a plus and a minus)
Can Outflank (if proper conditions are met)
Have the option of a drop pod at a full strength unit (although I am not sure I would personally run a 9 man warrior unit)
Can get great buffs from an alpha warrior to their stats

Cons:
Are more expensive now since there are less options to take.
Are still T4 which has caused concerns for Instant Death with the loss of Eternal Warrior
Are vulnerable to hidden powerfists, especially in large mobs
Are more vulnerable to S8 pie plates then before (again because of loss of eternal warrior)

If so, then I would say that they slightly edge out what they were before, in my opinion. I only have experience in 4th edition, so I know it is not much, but with that being said, I used to love using warriors. I did realize that I used EW as a crutch more then I should have as I look at different playstyles now. Gone are the days of TL-Devourers on warriors and letting them reign/rain over most infantry units, especially MEQs. Now I will have to find a different strategy and effective build, but it does seem like there are now a lot of options.

Warriors, in my opinion, always had the potential to get pricey. To me that is nothing new. At least now it can be taken in a troop slot to help balance lists better.

They are not the end all unit of everything but by far my favorite and I still plan on using them heavily. (Of course I am also coming from a just for fun and a few laughs at a tourney. I still like winning but hate when it is because of a cheese list. Nidzilla or psychic choir to name a few.) I know a lot of this has already been covered, but to throw in my two cents (and no longer be a lurker) I am pretty excited about the new codex and warriors.

CthulhuDalek
05-01-2010, 19:09
Or they expect everyone to buy venomthropes and use their lash whips for warriors, and convert up bone swords...

EDIT.

Also, it seems kinda of lame, that none of these builds are particularly efficient.

Bone swords barely take down tactical squads, and suffer heavy casualties in return, as it is. Their shooting isn't particularly great, on its own. They don't really fit into a niche -- they can't reliably deal with heavy infantry, mass infantry, instant death attacks.

So... what are warriors *good* at, that doesn't warrant taking something that outperforms them? JUST being synapse? JUST sitting on objectives with guns?

If you want to assault an ork mob you use hormagaunts... (I think it'd have been cool if the dynamic for this book had been a little different -- you charge your hormagaunts into terminators, tactical squads, etc -- and charge your warriors into ork boy squads)

Shadowfax
05-01-2010, 19:19
Even more a jack of all trades then before
In default form they are, but they can still specify towards CC. They can no longer form a dedicated shooting unit without wasting a chunk of their integrated cost, though.


Have the power to take objectives since they are now a troop choice
Yup


Have a few more CC options then before including a "power weapon" option
Probably fewer CC options than before, if you tallied them all up. The power weapon option also causes ID.


Have a few increased stats (including an extra wound which I am gathering is both a plus and a minus)
Yup


Can Outflank (if proper conditions are met)
A maximum of 1 unit would be able to outflank under the proper conditions.


Have the option of a drop pod at a full strength unit (although I am not sure I would personally run a 9 man warrior unit)
Yup


Can get great buffs from an alpha warrior to their stats
+1 WS and BS. Great, but not GREEEEAAAATTTTTT!!!!!

You list of cons is basically accurate.

naloth
05-01-2010, 19:21
Or they expect everyone to buy venomthropes and use their lash whips for warriors, and convert up bone swords...


My feeling with warriors is that they will be decent to good elite CC troops if you know who you're going up against. To that end I've already converted up 5 bonesword pairs using spinefists and Ogre Kingdom bull sword arms. I figure I'll run dual bonesword most often though I may do the sword/lash if cover turns out to be a re-occurring issue. Generally with T4 4+, I think they can take the hits they may have otherwise avoided.


In default form they are, but they can still specify towards CC. They can no longer form a dedicated shooting unit without wasting a chunk of their integrated cost, though.

Yes, I'll be aiming for CC efficiency. 18" shooting is too close to avoid assaults.

I'm somewhat disappointed that Warriors don't have a good long ranged support option. I've traditionally used them for fire support.

Kelderaith
05-01-2010, 19:24
The biggest issue I see with all tyranids (not just warriors) is the loss of grenade-equivalent for an army of high init close combat oriented monsters. Not because it makes sense (because quite frankly, it doesn't) but for pure game balance purpose.

By leaving the grenade-equivalent option out of the codex (except for 2-3 units it has been reported), the only way tyranids can hope to win fights against competent opponent who uses cover is by number and point efficiency, something that I am definitly not convinced this codex has either of those at this point.

I think it's a really big mistakes on Cruddace's part as it brings back the issue we had with 4th ed cover and assault rules, which is better illustrated by an example:

A bloodclaw unit is probably (haven't run the math, am ready to get owned in the face for it haha) better standing in cover shooting their pistols than charging if they are standing in a wood near a big hormagaunts unit, because if they charge, they will get hit first, lose models and thus attacks (note, they will probably still wins by a fair margin, but they will lose some models in the process, see the other possibility with me ok ;)), while if they wait in the woods, they will thin down the horde with their pistols, they when they get charged, THEY will hit first and inflict enough casualties for the hormagaunt to hit them back like wet paper (and thus lose no models or very few indeed).

This is particularly relevant in an army that can't outnumbers the opponent like we were told we would (increase in points for a lots of things, with very few points reduction).

All in all, I am still looking foward for the new codex, for I love my Tyranids and will never sell them. I just can't really believe that they seemingly nerfed quite a few aspects of the "old codex" that I saw as relatively bad to begin with. I think we've been given enough other buff to survive the change, I just don't like how most of the old stuff will suffer from the change though.

Vineas
05-01-2010, 19:27
Over in Dakka one of the sculptors working for Chapterhouse Studios is developing boneswords/whips for Tyranids, should be ready in February sometime. I'm not a huge lover of some of their sculpts but some are okay; not FW quality but a lot cheaper.

Before anyone asks they have been working with GW's IP lawyers so NO, none of their stuff infringes copyright even though they've been accused of it on dakka.


http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/

I'm a frequenter of dakka so I'll let Warseer know as soon as some greens come up.

Shadowfax
05-01-2010, 19:51
I'm somewhat disappointed that Warriors don't have a good long ranged support option. I've traditionally used them for fire support.
Me too. I don't like the de-emphasis (or at least reshuffling) of shooting threats in the new book.

All of a sudden Hive Tyrants, the physical embodiment of a vast and cunning god-psyche, are stuck with their pithy new BS 3, while their blind-ass gunbeast-slaves the Hive Guard are shooting as accurately as Space Marine Terminator vets.

At the same time, a Carnifex, who is bred in its default form to hurl itself into battlements while flailing its slashy parts with abandon, is forced to pay for BS 3 to complement the not-so-worthwhile ranged options that are made available to it.

Dumb!

PhalanxLord
05-01-2010, 19:53
Regardless of the actual numbers the end result is the same. Warriors consistently lose to slugga boyz.

Charging slugga boyz. Thats a very important detail.



Hence the "at best it's an even match". Generally the warriors will lose but maim the tac squad. The only way around that is a good first turn for the power fist and that breaks really well for the SMs.

This is pretty much why I wouldn't take naked warriors anyways. Boneswords or RC are better.



Yup, that tracks with out I figured it too. A 5 man warrior squad w/boneswords is good against MEQs. The counter analysis is it's much less efficient against GEQ and basically suicide against Orks.

Against GEQ:
Shooting: 3 dead
Assault: 9 dead, unit wiped, and you yell "Oh shi...." before you get shot up (though to be fair you could wipe out as many guard units as you get your hands on with this).

Against 30 orks:
If you want to assault:
Shooting: 3 dead
Assault: 6.67 dead, for a total of about 10.
Orks strike back (lets say a 30 man unit with a PK nob): 4.75~5 wounds (3 wounds for shoota boyz)
Nob: between 3-6 wounds (average is less than 1.5 so lets say 3).

Warriors win combat, or if the nob smacked two then it loses combat by 1. If the nob only killed one, then orks lose two more orks. If it were shoota boys, then 4 more orks die. Considering shoota boyz are the norm, odds are you will have lost 2 warriors and killed in total ~14 orks. 80pts vs 84pts.

Next turn:
Warriors kill 3 orks.
Orks finish off the warriors.

20 orks would have lost quite badly, though the warriors would have more points then. If you're talking about getting charged, then orks kill pretty much everything in the game on a charge.

Orks are a strange enemy, though. Take 5 TH/SS terminators vs 30 orks with a PK nob. TH/SS charge, sluggas kill 1.6 ~2, orks lose ~4 guys, PK nob possibly kills another TH/SS termiantor. In the end, the TH/SS terminators will lose. That doesn't really make them a bad unit either. Overall, there's really not much that can really take on a full 30 man ork unit and come out on top even if the orks didn't charge.



Agreed, but that isn't lost on most SM players. That's why most tac units get the PF.

Fair enough, but you did say the PW marines would win.



Sure, you can take the unit if you get the assault. Of course there's still the excellent chance that the PK will maim your warrior unit.

5 TS+ST+Dev warriors: 3 dead orks by shooting.
Charge: ~10 dead orks.
Stikes back: 1.5 wounds + between 3 and 6 on average from the PK nob. Even if the PK nob kills two warriors they'd have still lost combat by 2 if we shift the wounds in the ork's favour. LD7 reduced to LD5 and the nob and his boyz break and are run down by the warriors.



Aside from taking Boneswords, how will the sarge be forced to make saves? Figuring units at full S, you'll run out of Warriors about the same time he runs out of other marines to take the wounds.

By the second round of combat the warriors are dealing roughly 6 wounds to the remaining 6 marines. Therefore each member of the unit, including the sarge, must make a save so there's a decent chance that the sarge could die then and if the sarge is dead the marine unit is screwed.



Sure, that's why your opponent will try to do it to you. The point is that saying you can mop up 200 points of opponents with overwhelming force from 400 points does very little to show how efficient your units are at getting their job done. Worse, it implies that you need 400 points to wipe out 200 points effectively. That's not good unless you convince your opponents to let you field twice as many points...

Not really. You're talking like you need twice as many points to beat the opponent's unit, when its really you want twice as many points to easily slaughter it with no survivors.

Overall, though, it depends on what you're facing. 20 orks can easily be beaten with roughly the same points, but 30 orks will beat anything other than assault units with a high number of attacks whether they charge or not. Meanwhile, depending on what you have, you can take on 10 marines with less points than they have and win. With TH/SS terminators you'll rarely be able to kill them with equal points unless you're a unit of 30 orks.



Sure it does. It means you've effectively spotted your opponent half your points. If you're out matched at any single engagement what do you think his troops will be trying to do? There's a very simple chess analogy: trade for equal value (or better) when you're ahead. If you're up by a rook and you can trade off everything else for equal value you'll end up with pieces where your opponent has none.

This isn't chess, though. Its a lot harder to do that in 40K IMHO than in chess because every unit is moving. In 40K I can make 400pt unit to take on my opponent's 200pt units. They can't stop me from doing that. Sure they can simply send both 200pt units at my 400pt unit, but if they don't charge me I can choose to charge one of the 200pt units and kill it and now their second 200pt unit is in a position where I can do the same next turn unless they charge me or try to retreat. Not only that, but in 40K its easy to set up sacrificial shields so my opponent's second 200pt units has to go through maybe a 50pt unit to get to my 350pt unit. My 350pt unit eats their 200pt unit while they eat my 50pt unit, and then I can eat their unit. Of course they can do the same to me, but its all part of the game. Orks are, point for point, the most efficient model in the game. You have to take them on in an unfair situation or you'll likely lose.



Fair enough. Offhand, the pie plate sounds better than the lashes but I figure I'll go for anti-infantry.

I'm a little dismayed that the Spore is rumored to be T4. That's a very easy kill point - especially compared to AV12 pods.

You keep the 6 s6 6" range shots even if you do take the s5 large blast template.

Easy KP or not, I think landing spores will work well.


Sure, so do I. Sizing up things helps figure out what's a good or bad tactical idea.

Its a fun discussion. I like arguing with people.



Generally I have the edge to genestealers because they can stack the deck in their favor. Genestealers should have a placement advantage w/Infiltrate (outflank) so they probably wouldn't engage unless they had a clear advantage. Giving them the assault w/o cover being an issue for the boyz <or> where they couldn't get many boyz into the assault greatly affects the outcome. It's really hard to position 30 boyz to respond to an assault without bunching them to be pasted by biovores. Genestealers also have a longer (13-18") assault range making them more likely to get the assault than Warriors. Still, I'd probably run fewer genestealers with a Broodlord as a good "all-comers" unit and leave the 30 man unit to the biovores.


Personally I'm planning on running a pair of stealer units with TS to supplement my other troops. 30 man ork units? We have access to a lot of templates. Tervigons and landing spores get access to cheap s5 large blasts, fexes and tyrants can take s6 large blasts, and warriors can take s4 large blasts (recommended for every unit if not just for some wound allocation fun).



Having run the numbers it looks like Hormagaunts can reliably win without Nerve Shock provided they assault, strike first, and wound on 4s. Even so, a massive foot slogging unit is better left to the biovores.

30 naked horms vs 30 boyz. Horms charge: 12.5->12 dead orks. Orks strike back: 16 dead horms including the PK nob. Horms lose.

30 naked horms vs 30 WS1 boyz: Horms charge: 16.67->17 orks dead, 6 horms dead, orks wiped next turn.

30 TS horms vs 30 boyz: Horms charge: 18.75->19 dead boyz, 10 dead horms, boyz are wrecked.

Its still a better idea to just wittle down the boyz a bit first.



I'll be using both Devilgaunts and Biovores as fire support.

Edit: added wounding on 4s to hormaguants... I figure they will have TS.

I like devilgaunts. 200pts of devilgaunts vs orks: 12.5 dead orks per turn. Against marines you can expect 5 dead marines per turn.

Personally I like devilgaunts, but you also have to think about how you're sacrificing numbers for a bit better shooting. A couple of thunderfires or a couple of orks in CC will wreck the unit.

itcamefromthedeep
05-01-2010, 20:35
Generally I have the edge to genestealers because they can stack the deck in their favor.
Fair enough. I'm accustomed to using superior firepower to arrange my favorable matchups, either by inflicting casualties (to remove ablative Wounds on those fists and klaws, for example) or to simply silence enemy shooters.

In the case of Warriors I would try to use their firepower to force the Orks to come into my assault range or else risk me simply walking backwards and shooting them more.


Having run the numbers it looks like Hormagaunts can reliably win without Nerve Shock provided they assault, strike first, and wound on 4s. Even so, a massive foot slogging unit is better left to the biovores.
Yes, they can. However, I think I'll be using broods of 15-20 without upgrades. One of those broods would normally have trouble (get squished) against something like 20 Boyz (after Biovores/Warriors take their shots). With Nerve Shock, I can make that look very points-efficient for me. The trouble is that on that turn, I might want my Tyrant assaulting something else.


I'll be using both Devilgaunts and Biovores as fire support.
To others, do you guys plan on bringing Biovores along? Having played with them quite a bit in 4e (before you ask, we house-ruled the KPs on mines), I think the new Biovores are well worth it.


Also, it seems kinda of lame, that none of these builds are particularly efficient.

...

So... what are warriors *good* at, that doesn't warrant taking something that outperforms them? JUST being synapse? JUST sitting on objectives with guns?
That's a fair question. They're not particularly efficient at shooting or in close combat, but they're also not particularly vulnerable to either. They don't roll over and die to flamers or bolters the way Genestealers and Hormagaunts do, and they aren't allergic to assaults the way the various breeds of Termagant are.

It's the utility that sells them for me.

naloth
05-01-2010, 21:00
Charging slugga boyz. Thats a very important detail.If assaulting and equipped with the right weapons Warriors have an advantage over sluggas.



This is pretty much why I wouldn't take naked warriors anyways. Boneswords or RC are better.

Right now I'm thinking that Boneswords/(default ranged) + TS will be a popular combo for general match-ups. The better ranged weapon is marginal compared to the increased efficiency you get with TS in CC.


Fair enough, but you did say the PW marines would win. Accident then. I seldom see PW instead of PF.



By the second round of combat the warriors are dealing roughly 6 wounds to the remaining 6 marines. Therefore each member of the unit, including the sarge, must make a save so there's a decent chance that the sarge could die then and if the sarge is dead the marine unit is screwed.

Running 6 base warriors that get the assault on a fresh 10 man tac squad: 24 attacks, 7/9s hit, 1/2 wound, 2/3s saved. That's ~3 wounds (9 inflicted so none against the sarge) on the assault leaving 7 marines. All the marines attack the first time around and inflict ~1 wound + an almost 50% the sarge w/PF will kill one outright. We'll say the Warriors pass the "No Retreat" save and end up 7 marines (1 w/PF) against 5 Warriors. The 5 Warriors now have 15 attacks for statistically less than 6 wounds (of which 4 will likely be saved). Bottom line, the Warriors need to inflict wounds prior to CC <or> have upgrades.



You keep the 6 s6 6" range shots even if you do take the s5 large blast template.

Easy KP or not, I think landing spores will work well.

Interesting. They might be worth it in small quantities (1-2) or as part of a scenerio. Having 5+ then pulling a KP mission would suck.



Personally I'm planning on running a pair of stealer units with TS to supplement my other troops. 30 man ork units? We have access to a lot of templates. Tervigons and landing spores get access to cheap s5 large blasts, fexes and tyrants can take s6 large blasts, and warriors can take s4 large blasts (recommended for every unit if not just for some wound allocation fun).

Yes, I'm thinking my troops with be 2x stealers, 2x tervigons, 2x gaunts (one cover and one devilgaunt) for my all-comers list.



Personally I like devilgaunts, but you also have to think about how you're sacrificing numbers for a bit better shooting. A couple of thunderfires or a couple of orks in CC will wreck the unit.
The tervigons are there to support with FnP. Even a librarian will have trouble stopping 2+ tervigons.

naloth
05-01-2010, 21:07
In the case of Warriors I would try to use their firepower to force the Orks to come into my assault range or else risk me simply walking backwards and shooting them more.

I'm un-impressed with Warrior shooting. The rest of the army will have to provide the incentive for those sluggas to advance. Given that Orks can bring a fair amount of firepower to the table I'm not sure you'll be able to force the issue. Many underestimate Looted Wagons, Grotzooka and even shootas. That aside Orks can also be surprisingly fast. Battlewagons, trukks, and the ability to fleet can allow Orks to get the assault.



To others, do you guys plan on bringing Biovores along? Having played with them quite a bit in 4e (before you ask, we house-ruled the KPs on mines), I think the new Biovores are well worth it.

Yes. I like the new Biovores (and even did reasonably well in 4e with them). Besides, I have to have a way to field my pyrovore without feeling like an idiot ;)

CthulhuDalek
05-01-2010, 21:14
Running 6 base warriors that get the assault on a fresh 10 man tac squad: 24 attacks, 7/9s hit, 1/2 wound, 2/3s saved. That's ~3 wounds (9 inflicted so none against the sarge) on the assault leaving 7 marines. All the marines attack the first time around and inflict ~1 wound + an almost 50% the sarge w/PF will kill one outright. We'll say the Warriors pass the "No Retreat" save and end up 7 marines (1 w/PF) against 5 Warriors. The 5 Warriors now have 15 attacks for statistically less than 6 wounds (of which 4 will likely be saved). Bottom line, the Warriors need to inflict wounds prior to CC <or> have upgrades.



Why do the warriors take any NR in the first round? They're striking simultaneously with the marines, and if they only take one wound on a warrior, can't that same warrior take the powerfist hit, when it gets to that initiative level?

Even then, you'd still tie combat.

It would also appear that warriors can't even survive a charge from any power armored squad... the extra attack from every model will cripple them. Still waiting to find this combat niche for warriors...

Bassline
05-01-2010, 21:17
Why do the warriors take any NR in the first round? They're striking simultaneously with the marines, and if they only take one wound on a warrior, can't that same warrior take the powerfist hit, when it gets to that initiative level?

Even then, you'd still tie combat.

It would also appear that warriors can't even survive a charge from any power armored squad... the extra attack from every model will cripple them. Still waiting to find this combat niche for warriors...

Yes as a PF goes at I1 you could make it go something like

3 wounds so put 1 on each warrior from normal troops what are from I4
then I1 PF onto a warrior that has all rdy taken a wound (and not on the one that has not taken one)

naloth
05-01-2010, 21:19
Why do the warriors take any NR in the first round? They're striking simultaneously with the marines, and if they only take one wound on a warrior, can't that same warrior take the powerfist hit, when it gets to that initiative level?


Pesky rule on B26 is specifies that unsaved models go from insta-death prior to wounded ones just to prevent this sort of thing.


3 wounds so put 1 on each warrior from normal troops what are from I4


You can't split wounds between identically armed models. Yes, you could split between hvy weapon and non-hvy if you have one but that's it.

CthulhuDalek
05-01-2010, 21:21
Yes as a PF goes at I1 you could make it go something like

3 wounds so put 1 on each warrior from normal troops what are from I4
then I1 PF onto a warrior that has all rdy taken a wound (and not on the one that has not taken one)

Warriors are all armed in the same way(generally), so it will be impossible to allocate the wounds like that.

It's easier if you have one of the heavy weapons (maybe that's why they cost more, rather than shooting effectiveness, you can pawn off wounds on them?)

I believe the example says that the warriors take 1 *wound* anyway. That would mean that if they were on two separate models, you'd have 4 total wounds taken by the warriors, and only 3 suffered by tactical marines.


Pesky rule on B26 is specifies that unsaved models go from insta-death prior to wounded ones just to prevent this sort of thing.


Doesn't that only apply when all wounds are inflicted at the same time, as in during shooting?

naloth
05-01-2010, 21:23
Doesn't that only apply when all wounds are inflicted at the same time, as in during shooting?
No.

Extra characters to avoid min length.

Ventus
05-01-2010, 21:29
From the latest info. What is the save on a new warrior and can it be upgraded? Do any of the Hive Tyrants new powers improve saves in any way for other units? Just trying to figure out what would be the best psychic powers for a Tyrant that would help a unit of warriors.

Nuage
05-01-2010, 21:30
Yes as a PF goes at I1 you could make it go something like

3 wounds so put 1 on each warrior from normal troops what are from I4
then I1 PF onto a warrior that has all rdy taken a wound (and not on the one that has not taken one)Except that, IIRC, ID wounds must go to unwounded models first... No ?

Nuage.

itcamefromthedeep
05-01-2010, 21:48
From the latest info. What is the save on a new warrior and can it be upgraded? Do any of the Hive Tyrants new powers improve saves in any way for other units? Just trying to figure out what would be the best psychic powers for a Tyrant that would help a unit of warriors.
Sorry, we can't actually answer direct questions like that. Leaking IP can get the site in trouble. I know it's weird to bring this up now, but I don't want to get anyone in trouble.

I can post opinion, though. The only power I think is worth mentioning is Nerve Shock. I'd also take the life drain one, because there are corner cases when Nerve Shock won't help.

I can also say your best bet for increasing the durability on Warriors is to put them in cover.

Ventus
05-01-2010, 21:53
Ok. Thanks - yeah I don't want anyone to leak info that is not supposed to be on the site.
On another note. I was wondering how prevalent you have found flamers to be in opponents lists - since they are very nasty to nids, even in cover. It seems to me that with Orks, new IG and now new Tyranid, flamers and heavy flamers will become increasing options but I don't have a lot of playing experience so I could be wrong.

HiveJive
06-01-2010, 00:05
I can only speak to 4th edition, but flamers can be pretty nasty, especially if they get into genestealers. With that being said, I deserved to get roasted a majority of those times for my own strategic mistakes (like spacing or being aware of my enemy). Heavy flamers especially suck and can quickly ruin many of the 'Nids day.

Even more then before...synergy, synergy, synergy. Units have to be able to work closely together and compliment each other to take out certain threats without being at too much risk. Gonna take some time to learn them.

And good point of bringing up warriors can be made into CC monsters. Well said.

PhalanxLord
06-01-2010, 00:15
If assaulting and equipped with the right weapons Warriors have an advantage over sluggas.

Yeah, but even still most units won't do well against sluggas. Sure I can charge a ~235t slugga unit (30 orks, PK nob, bosspole, 3 big shootas) with 7 dual scy-tal TS warriors (~18 kills on the charge), but it won't do that well against other enemies.

Giving those bonesword warriors TS might help (I was keeping it off so they wouldn't eat through marines in one turn and to save some points), so lets do some calcs (I love calcs...)

5 warriors with devs+boneswords+TS: 235pts
Devs: 3 dead.
Assault: 10 dead
Sluggas: 4 wounds + 3 from the nob, orks lose 3 more guys due to NR.

Turn 2:
Warriors: 4-5 orks dead (lets say 5)
Orks: 2 wounds + 6 from PK nob, all warriors are dead.

So pretty much against orks keep them cheap with toxin sacs, against everyone else boneswords are better.



Right now I'm thinking that Boneswords/(default ranged) + TS will be a popular combo for general match-ups. The better ranged weapon is marginal compared to the increased efficiency you get with TS in CC.

While the TS will help against pretty much everything, I just think it would make them too killy against MEQ. 10 dead marines means I'm going to be shot up pretty quickly during my opponent's turn.



Accident then. I seldom see PW instead of PF.


Fair enough. We all make mistakes.
Edit: Like forgetting the "]" on the [/quote] when I first posted this.



Running 6 base warriors that get the assault on a fresh 10 man tac squad: 24 attacks, 7/9s hit, 1/2 wound, 2/3s saved. That's ~3 wounds (9 inflicted so none against the sarge) on the assault leaving 7 marines. All the marines attack the first time around and inflict ~1 wound + an almost 50% the sarge w/PF will kill one outright. We'll say the Warriors pass the "No Retreat" save and end up 7 marines (1 w/PF) against 5 Warriors. The 5 Warriors now have 15 attacks for statistically less than 6 wounds (of which 4 will likely be saved). Bottom line, the Warriors need to inflict wounds prior to CC <or> have upgrades.

You forget that they would shoot before assaulting. I mean, they have devs so why not? If you've been looking at my calcs I've been including that all units shoot with any pistols or assault weapons before charging.

Turn 1:
6 warriors shooting: 1 dead marine. (I guess here's your wound prior to assaulting, but it was in my prior calcs anyways)
Assault: 3 dead marines (one save on the sarge as there are only 9 marines alive)
Marines: 1 wounds + 1 dead warrior.
Warriors lose by 1, but don't really care.

Turn 2:
Warriors: 5.833 wounds (~6) on 6 marines means each marine makes a save. (2 dead marines on average)

As I've made my point I don't see any need to go further as you can find this all on a previous post of mine. By this points if warriors roll average there is a 55.56% chance that the PF sarge is dead.



Interesting. They might be worth it in small quantities (1-2) or as part of a scenerio. Having 5+ then pulling a KP mission would suck.

Yeah. Pretty much. They aren't bad for their points, but they do die a bit too easily.



Yes, I'm thinking my troops with be 2x stealers, 2x tervigons, 2x gaunts (one cover and one devilgaunt) for my all-comers list.

I was thinking of the same thing actually before I decided I would try warriors. New stealers are too nice to leave at home, but tervigons as troops are also great. Why couldn't 40K have infinite troops like fantasy has core?



The tervigons are there to support with FnP. Even a librarian will have trouble stopping 2+ tervigons.

Fair enough. Thats also something I've considered along with putting them in cover (harder to kill than your average SOB!). If you keep your tervigons within 6" then you could also give the gaunts TS and counter attack (provided you give your tervigon TS, but there's not really a reason not to as it makes tervigons better vs MEQ with their s5).


From the latest info. What is the save on a new warrior and can it be upgraded? Do any of the Hive Tyrants new powers improve saves in any way for other units? Just trying to figure out what would be the best psychic powers for a Tyrant that would help a unit of warriors.

No.

naloth
06-01-2010, 02:33
While the TS will help against pretty much everything, I just think it would make them too killy against MEQ. 10 dead marines means I'm going to be shot up pretty quickly during my opponent's turn.

While that might be true, I generally assume there's going to either be casualties or I won't get the assault. After all baseline SM are just as fast as Warriors before you factor in their portable bunker. If you run the numbers with 3 Warriors Boneswords + TS is a worthwhile combo against a mostly full unit of MEQs.



You forget that they would shoot before assaulting. I mean, they have devs so why not? If you've been looking at my calcs I've been including that all units shoot with any pistols or assault weapons before charging.

Actually I avoid that since it tends to skew comparing the CC ability of the units. It's not like we are computing actual games (too many variables) and it's more than a bit one-sided to give one side the only shooting and the assault. After the marines have longer range shooting and at least as much mobility.



I was thinking of the same thing actually before I decided I would try warriors. New stealers are too nice to leave at home, but tervigons as troops are also great. Why couldn't 40K have infinite troops like fantasy has core?

Actually I'm going to try Flying Warriors. At 50ish (boneswords + TS) they are a solid anti-MEQ unit and the extra mobility gives them an advantage on choosing the target, shooting, and getting the assault. The loss of a pip on save shouldn't really matter for shooting with gargoyles providing cover. There's synergy for more CC bodies (gargoyles) or better resilience (Tervigons FnP for either gargoyles or warriors). 5 TS bonewings (decent name?) next to 20ish gargoyles sounds pretty good on paper.



Fair enough. Thats also something I've considered along with putting them in cover (harder to kill than your average SOB!). If you keep your tervigons within 6" then you could also give the gaunts TS and counter attack (provided you give your tervigon TS, but there's not really a reason not to as it makes tervigons better vs MEQ with their s5).

Agreed. I figure on HQ Tervigon (perhaps less target priority since it's not scoring) with upgrades to give to gaunts plus another 2 in core for psychic abilities is how to make otherwise mediocre units good in this 'dex.

PhalanxLord
06-01-2010, 05:56
While that might be true, I generally assume there's going to either be casualties or I won't get the assault. After all baseline SM are just as fast as Warriors before you factor in their portable bunker. If you run the numbers with 3 Warriors Boneswords + TS is a worthwhile combo against a mostly full unit of MEQs.

*runs the calcs* 6 dead MEQ on the charge, take 4 wounds back, and then deal 3 wounds next turn and have another one pasted by the PF. The problem is that three of them won't deal enough wounds without scything talons. Personally I would prefer to bring a bigger, more expensive brood that would stay in CC for a round after I assault and has more wounds (and takes relatively small casulties) than a brood has a so-so chance of wiping out the SM unit in two combats but if it fails in the end you're stuck with a single warrior if you're lucky and the opponent didn't nail both of them with their PF.

To each their own.



Actually I avoid that since it tends to skew comparing the CC ability of the units. It's not like we are computing actual games (too many variables) and it's more than a bit one-sided to give one side the only shooting and the assault. After the marines have longer range shooting and at least as much mobility.

I like to try to think of how they would work in an actual game. If you're looking solely at CC ability then units that are decent at both would seem worse than they really are. I think by including that round of shooting you'll get a more accurate picture of how it may turn out in and actual game. A SM player won't be charging without firing his pistols first, so if you don't include that you skew the results in favour of the more CC-centric unit so its less accurate than it really would be.

It may seem one-sided to you, but when you consider that most people don't spread their firepower over everything it can be semi-realistic. It wouldn't be too surprising if a SM unit in a rhino was shooting at your trygon, then a zoan nuked their rhino (the SM made all their saves), and you had a warrior unit that was ignored nearby (hence why you nuked the rhino). While it might not happen often, it is a realistic situation and things like that do happen. The warriors not firing and just charging isn't very realistic (unless of course they are just barely within 6" and they don't want to chance the marines removing the one guy within charge range).



Actually I'm going to try Flying Warriors. At 50ish (boneswords + TS) they are a solid anti-MEQ unit and the extra mobility gives them an advantage on choosing the target, shooting, and getting the assault. The loss of a pip on save shouldn't really matter for shooting with gargoyles providing cover. There's synergy for more CC bodies (gargoyles) or better resilience (Tervigons FnP for either gargoyles or warriors). 5 TS bonewings (decent name?) next to 20ish gargoyles sounds pretty good on paper.

The one thing that annoys me about flying warriors is that you have to replace their dev in order to get anything. The only weapon flying warriors can replace their scy-tals with are rending claws. If they want boneswords they have to give up their dev, and if you want a heavy weapon then you can't have boneswords on that model.



Agreed. I figure on HQ Tervigon (perhaps less target priority since it's not scoring) with upgrades to give to gaunts plus another 2 in core for psychic abilities is how to make otherwise mediocre units good in this 'dex.

Pretty much. Give warriors FNP and they'll laugh at nearly everything you can throw at them. 30 charging sluggas? From 7 dead down to 4 dead due to FNP. Saves you 9 wounds. It would also now take 36 bolter shots on average to kill a warrior.

Or with gaunts, it would take on average 9 bolter shots to kill a gaunt in cover with FNP. Those marines better be preparing to charge or they won't be killing much of anything.

naloth
06-01-2010, 16:24
*runs the calcs* 6 dead MEQ on the charge, take 4 wounds back, and then deal 3 wounds next turn and have another one pasted by the PF. The problem is that three of them won't deal enough wounds without scything talons. Personally I would prefer to bring a bigger, more expensive brood <snip>

I think you misunderstood. I plan on a bigger brood (say 5ish) but I figure it will often be whittled down to 4 by the time I get to assault and again down to 3 when it engages another unit. Giving them TS & Boneswords means that even while they are getting whittled down they will still be effective as a smaller unit. Buying just Boneswords means that the 5 man unit will often just finish with a full MEQ unit after 2 rounds of CC and they will rapidly drop in effectiveness when they lose a few members.


The warriors not firing and just charging isn't very realistic (unless of course they are just barely within 6" and they don't want to chance the marines removing the one guy within charge range).

Each their own. If you're going that route, you should probably start them at a fair distance (24"+) to see how each unit will deal with the other.




The one thing that annoys me about flying warriors is that you have to replace their dev in order to get anything. The only weapon flying warriors can replace their scy-tals with are rending claws. If they want boneswords they have to give up their dev, and if you want a heavy weapon then you can't have boneswords on that model.

Hmmm, did not know that. I had heard they were just like warriors. I guess we'll see how things break in the final 'dex.



Or with gaunts, it would take on average 9 bolter shots to kill a gaunt in cover with FNP. Those marines better be preparing to charge or they won't be killing much of anything.
Yup... Tervigons are shaping up to be a great army buff. If there's a shift in the metagame it will be that the overlooked Librarians will now be fairly common.

itcamefromthedeep
06-01-2010, 16:58
Yup... Tervigons are shaping up to be a great army buff. If there's a shift in the metagame it will be that the overlooked Librarians will now be fairly common.
I think the metagame stopped overlooking them while we weren't looking.

I've been bringing one for a while for the sake of Gate of Infinity, adding mobility to my transport-light Marines.

The presence of Lash, Eldrad and Rune Priests are a subtle nudge to bring a Librarian along. The same goes for the new Zoanthropes.

---

Back on topic, The big draw of winged Warriors in my mind is that they bring all the non-MC power of Warriors but don't take up one of those hotly-contested Troops choices.

Shadowfax
06-01-2010, 17:33
Of course they're still bolter bait.

Also, FA Spore Clusters seem like one of the best buys in the book to me. Such a headache for the enemy.

itcamefromthedeep
06-01-2010, 19:58
Why is that?

They can mess up deployment in Dawn of War missions, sure. In any game, though, if the Nids don't get first turn then the mines won't have a chance to scatter and it'll take nothing more than a spare Storm Bolter to take them out.

They also like to kill themselves, such as when they drift into one of their fellows.

Worst comes to worst the enemy takes some S4 hits.

The enemy could drive over the mines with a Rhino (tank shock). The tank doesn't care about a S4 hit to front armor.

I'm not terribly impressed.

WH40KAj
06-01-2010, 20:04
Why is that?

They can mess up deployment in Dawn of War missions, sure. In any game, though, if the Nids don't get first turn then the mines won't have a chance to scatter and it'll take nothing more than a spare Storm Bolter to take them out.

They also like to kill themselves, such as when they drift into one of their fellows.

Worst comes to worst the enemy takes some S4 hits.

The enemy could drive over the mines with a Rhino (tank shock). The tank doesn't care about a S4 hit to front armor.

I'm not terribly impressed.

I still view them and biovores considerably better than before. But i get why people liked their ap3, 2d6+3 armour currently and will lament that loss. Against a whole host of non marine armies they got considerably better, for cheaper. We do have tons of anti-marine stuff elsewhere in the dex. I'm gonna use a brood of two and see how the vores pan out.

itcamefromthedeep
06-01-2010, 20:06
I still view them and biovores considerably better than before. But i get why people liked their ap3, 2d6+3 armour currently and will lament that loss. Against a whole host of non marine armies they got considerably better, for cheaper. We do have tons of anti-marine stuff elsewhere in the dex. I'm gonna use a brood of two and see how the vores pan out.
Biovores are great. I plan on using them regularly.

Spore Mine Clusters are useful for restricting an opponent's deployment in Dawn of War, but that's about it.

Shadowfax
06-01-2010, 20:09
I guess #1 is that they're cheap, and #2 is that I wasn't thinking hard enough about them.

Everything you posted is pretty much true. :(

itcamefromthedeep
06-01-2010, 20:14
I guess #1 is that they're cheap, and #2 is that I wasn't thinking hard enough about them.

Everything you posted is pretty much true. :(
Cheap would be nice. Trust me, I really want Spore Mines to be AWESOME-fun-cool. The rules for them are just so badly executed that they get neutered at every turn.

I might be able to convince my LGG to let me Deep Strike them in the way the 4e codex did. That would be cool.

EDIT: If you like the "seeding the field" idea, then ask your LGG for two house rules. The first would be for Spore Mines to stop when they touch a friendly model or impassible terrain, rather than die.

The second would be to allow them to scatter once before the first turn.

That way, they might actually do the job they're intended for.

WH40KAj
06-01-2010, 20:18
Cheap would be nice. Trust me, I really want Spore Mines to be AWESOME-fun-cool. The rules for them are just so badly executed that they get neutered at every turn.

I might be able to convince my LGG to let me Deep Strike them in the way the 4e codex did. That would be cool.

EDIT: If you like the "seeding the field" idea, then ask your LGG for two house rules. The first would be for Spore Mines to stop when they touch a friendly model or impassible terrain, rather than die.

The second would be to allow them to scatter once before the first turn.

That way, they might actually do the job they're intended for.

They might be cheap, but still thats equivalent to two gaunts that can score in a unit near a tervigon, or a devilgaunt that can probably kill a marine. The deployment thing is the only good thing going for them...

razormasticator
08-01-2010, 17:14
Warriors with Barbed Stranglers... what do you all think?

naloth
08-01-2010, 18:33
Warriors with Barbed Stranglers... what do you all think?

Presuming it's a 24" S4 large blast? It's not as good as a biovore for anti-infantry and it costs more. I would take it on a unit of warriors, but I wouldn't take a unit of warriors for it.

Shadowfax
08-01-2010, 18:37
Yeah, it's better for the side-effect of complicating wound allocation than itis for it's actual offensive function.

catbarf
08-01-2010, 20:01
Spore mines seem nice until you compare them to Biovores. A trio of Biovores over the course of six turns will produce 180pts of Spore Mines, more than if you just used their value to buy mines directly. Plus, you can aim them to wherever they're needed. The downside is that you don't get them all at once, but you're far, far more likely to get hits when you can send them into an enemy unit rather than hope he blunders into them.

Edit: And of course it's another unit forcing your opponent to consider dividing his fire to deal with them.

Yaro
08-01-2010, 20:09
Back on the topic of warriors, here is my take on the bone swords:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4278561#post4278561

Shadowfax
08-01-2010, 20:09
Biovores need LoS now as well, right?

mchmr6677
08-01-2010, 20:18
Presuming it's a 24" S4 large blast? It's not as good as a biovore for anti-infantry and it costs more. I would take it on a unit of warriors, but I wouldn't take a unit of warriors for it.

The barbed strangler is range 36" actually.


Biovores need LoS now as well, right?

No, they have assault 1 barrage weapons. Barrage weapons by definition do not need LOS.

sayles78
08-01-2010, 20:27
The barbed strangler is range 36" actually.

Correct. But you cant give warriors Barbed Stranglers - only their little brother - The Stranglethorn Cannon (I think it's called), rumoured to be S4, 24" range, large blast.

Shadowfax
08-01-2010, 20:28
The barbed strangler is range 36" actually.



No, they have assault 1 barrage weapons. Barrage weapons by definition do not need LOS.

Cool.

The Warrior-sized Barbed Strangler is 24", btw.

mchmr6677
08-01-2010, 20:34
Correct. But you cant give warriors Barbed Stranglers - only their little brother - The Stranglethorn Cannon (I think it's called), rumoured to be S4, 24" range, large blast.


Cool.

The Warrior-sized Barbed Strangler is 24", btw.

Both incorrect. The stranglethorn cannon is the MC version, has a 36" range, and is S6 AP5. The barbed strangler is 36", S4, and AP5. Both are large blasts.

I just read the English language preview dex at our LGS here.

The only weapon that has actually had a major makeover is the deathspitter with its change to assault 3, 18" range, S5 AP5.

Lyinar
08-01-2010, 20:38
Wait... They changed the deathspitter into a Tau burst cannon?

Shadowfax
08-01-2010, 20:41
Both incorrect. The stranglethorn cannon is the MC version, has a 36" range, and is S6 AP5. The barbed strangler is 36", S4, and AP5. Both are large blasts.

I just read the English language preview dex at our LGS here.

The only weapon that has actually had a major makeover is the deathspitter with its change to assault 3, 18" range, S5 AP5.
You're right about the BS.

The Gaunt-sized Devourer is majorly different, too.

naloth
08-01-2010, 20:41
I just read the English language preview dex at our LGS here.

Any other common (rumor) misconceptions you would like to address?



The only weapon that has actually had a major makeover is the deathspitter with its change to assault 3, 18" range, S5 AP5.
Well, I would call a fixed S and number of shots rather than basing them off the creature's stats a pretty major makeover for weapons. The VC also is supposed to get the blast template the deathspitter lost.

mchmr6677
08-01-2010, 20:47
The new heavy devourer (brainslug thingy) is S6 AP- 18" assault 6 with the added rule that if the unit that it wounds must make a morale test due to casualties, the test is taken at -1 leadership.

Broodlords are still VERY GOOD and are only slightly cheaper than currently.

Stealers come in broods of 5-20...

Anything you want to ask specifically?

Edit: warriors overall look good, as do the warrior primes.

Vepr
08-01-2010, 20:54
The new heavy devourer (brainslug thingy) is S6 AP- 18" assault 6 with the added rule that if the unit that it wounds must make a morale test due to casualties, the test is taken at -1 leadership.

Broodlords are still VERY GOOD and are only slightly cheaper than currently.

Stealers come in broods of 5-20...

Anything you want to ask specifically?

Is the Pyrovore the same as we thought it was going to be?

Did the hivemind accidently absorb an imperial world used to house mental defectives before designing the Pyrovore? ;) :p

mchmr6677
08-01-2010, 21:00
The pyrovore is as most have reported.

In reading it's rules as well as the rules for "Acid Blood" I can see one very good use for it: a large squad.

Acid blood causes a the unit which hit the model with the acid blood to take Initiative tests equal in number to the number of failed armor saves by the pyrovore. On a failed test the model suffers a wound without an armor save allowed (invulns are allowed). Against a boy mob or massed IG infantry platton this could be near catastrophic.

If the pyrovore is IDed (such as by a powerfist) on a 4+ it explodes identically to a vehicle explodes result.

Vepr
08-01-2010, 21:10
The pyrovore is as most have reported.

In reading it's rules as well as the rules for "Acid Blood" I can see one very good use for it: a large squad.

Acid blood causes a the unit which hit the model with the acid blood to take Initiative tests equal in number to the number of failed armor saves by the pyrovore. On a failed test the model suffers a wound without an armor save allowed (invulns are allowed). Against a boy mob or massed IG infantry platton this could be near catastrophic.

If the pyrovore is IDed (such as by a powerfist) on a 4+ it explodes identically to a vehicle explodes result.

Just not sure if it is worth the points when you include the pod. I will have to try it again. I tried it from the leak and it just did not seem to be that great but then again we played it that all the overkill wounds did not cause acid blood tests so that very well could change things. On a full group of boyz three pyrovores killed half the group between templates and some acid blood tests but died before the power klaw even got to attack.

It just seems that a Doom of Malanthi is better in same capacity.

sayles78
08-01-2010, 21:21
Wait... They changed the deathspitter into a Tau burst cannon?

I never thought of it like that - but god damn it he's right! Can we have Pulse Rifles too?

mchmr6677
08-01-2010, 21:27
I tried it from the leak and it just did not seem to be that great but then again we played it that all the overkill wounds did not cause acid blood tests so that very well could change things.

This is key, I believe. The rule is worded to spell out "unsaved wounds." I believe this to include overwounding. Afterall, just because the pyrovore was killed by one wound, doesn't mean the other wounds that drew blood didn't do damage.

airmang
08-01-2010, 21:38
Acid blood causes a the unit which hit the model with the acid blood to take Initiative tests equal in number to the number of failed armor saves by the pyrovore. On a failed test the model suffers a wound without an armor save allowed (invulns are allowed). Against a boy mob or massed IG infantry platton this could be near catastrophic.



Wait, does this mean all the models in the unit have to take an I test, or just an I test for each unsaved wound?

also do Lash Whips effect a whole unit in CC, or just the models in Base Contact? Same with Toxic Miasma.

mchmr6677
08-01-2010, 21:46
Acid blood causes one I test for each unsaved wound inflicted by the unit on the model (or models) with it.

Lash Whips drop the Initiative of all models in base contact only. Engaged only models are not affected.

I can't remember Toxic Miasma's rules.

airmang
08-01-2010, 21:53
So basically if a model with Acid Blod takes 3 wounds, then the player that caused the wounds picks 3 models in the unit (that could have caused the wounds, unless it was specific models, such as a Power fist sgt) to take the I test. does this sound right? And can Lash Whips and Acid Blood be used together (i think you know where i'm going with this one :) ) but i think what you are saying is that say a Carnie with Acid Blood charges into a Wolf Guard squad with Ragnar, and ends up taking like 10 wounds (unsaved), that would kill the Carnie, but cause the Wolf Guard (and possibly Ragnar) to take 10 I tests. Which also seems to make the Pyrovore a bit of a suicide bomber....

sorry to keep bugging you, i'm going to see the codex in about an hour, but i can't help myself

mchmr6677
08-01-2010, 21:57
The unit makes a number of I tests equal to the number of un-saved wounds. Which models take the tests will be left to the controling player.

Lash whips specify that the model fights at I1, not that they become I1, so no it would not stack as such.

airmang
08-01-2010, 22:01
ok, that's makes sense. and the lash whips/acid blood combo did seem a bit "wrong".

Thanks!

Bassline
08-01-2010, 22:06
The pyrovore is as most have reported.

In reading it's rules as well as the rules for "Acid Blood" I can see one very good use for it: a large squad.

Acid blood causes a the unit which hit the model with the acid blood to take Initiative tests equal in number to the number of failed armor saves by the pyrovore. On a failed test the model suffers a wound without an armor save allowed (invulns are allowed). Against a boy mob or massed IG infantry platton this could be near catastrophic.

If the pyrovore is IDed (such as by a powerfist) on a 4+ it explodes identically to a vehicle explodes result.

Its not failed armour saves its wounds caused (What if u check BRB it states wounds caused are before armour saves) so even if u pass say 10 armour saves they will still need to take 10 Initaitve tests

mchmr6677
08-01-2010, 22:09
Its not failed armour saves its wounds caused (What if u check BRB it states wounds caused are before armour saves) so even if u pass say 10 armour saves they will still need to take 10 Initaitve tests

No, it is "unsaved wounds."

Shadowfax
08-01-2010, 22:24
Even if it's "unsaved wounds" it might not work like you hope it does. I don't really believe in the idea that you can cause wounds over the amount the victim's profile could absorb.

It'll come down to hard RAW I guess.

mchmr6677
08-01-2010, 22:31
It would be different if it stated "number of wounds lost" or something allong that line. Unsaved wounds has a very specific definition and because of that, overwounding is not a good idea.

Lyinar
08-01-2010, 22:47
It's spewing acidic blood from holes opened in its flesh during the course of less than ten seconds. Plus, Tyranids probably DO have the whole anime high-pressure blood thing going for them. I can easily see every unsaved wound, even over the thing's wound limit, causing those initiative tests.

Shadowfax
08-01-2010, 22:54
It would be different if it stated "number of wounds lost" or something allong that line. Unsaved wounds has a very specific definition and because of that, overwounding is not a good idea.
But an unsaved wound is a wound you take from failing a save, right? So it doesn't matter if you fail 10 saves on a 2 wound model, because only 2 can ever become wounds.

Can't wait for the rules forum megadebate next week. :D

Lyinar
08-01-2010, 23:02
Not sure on the wording in the rulebook, as I don't have it with me, but I do know that most people roll saves on all the wounds inflicted on a model/unit/funky-wound-allocation-subgroup all at once.

Lord Cook
08-01-2010, 23:10
So it doesn't matter if you fail 10 saves on a 2 wound model, because only 2 can ever become wounds.

All ten are still wounds. Just because it only takes two wounds to kill the model, doesn't mean that all the rest of the successful attacks just disappear into the warp.

Shadowfax
08-01-2010, 23:48
All ten are still wounds. Just because it only takes two wounds to kill the model, doesn't mean that all the rest of the successful attacks just disappear into the warp.
Don't they, though?

I mean, they're not counted for combat resolution, right?

Eg. Say a Wraithlord is fighting alongside 2x Guardians. The Wraithlord inflicts 0 wounds and takes 0 hits, the Guardians inflict 0 wounds and take 6 wounds themselves, failing all their saves. Would the Wraithlord be at -2 or -6 for No Retreat?

catbarf
09-01-2010, 00:13
It makes sense, though, that a swarm of attackers could stab the Pyrovore far in excess of what's required to kill it, spraying acid everywhere.

Shadowfax
09-01-2010, 02:07
Yeah, but who cares what makes sense. It's a game, not a simulation of an imagined reality. It doesn't make sense that Jetbikes can fall into wells and explode, but as of yesterday they can.

Vineas
09-01-2010, 03:37
Is the lashwhip wording from the English 'dex because the german one says "any UNIT attacking is at I1, not just those models in B2B".

There is a huge difference between UNIT and MODELS.

airmang
09-01-2010, 04:11
no, it's just models in B2B. And the Lash Whip does say that models in B2B are I1 until the end of that assault phase, regardless of their I.

as for the unsave wound thing: Pg24 BRB: "For every model that fails it save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound." Unsaved wounds then become wounds suffered. This seems to me that unsaved wounds are different that wounds suffered. So i'm in the boat that 10 unsaved wounds (done at the same Initiative step) on a 4W model would count as 10 wounds.

Shadowfax
09-01-2010, 04:25
If that's the way the online groupthink eventually leans, I'll be overjoyed. After all, I play nids, so anything that makes the Pyrovore worthwhile will make me smile.

But I'm going to wait until it gets hashed out in the rules forum here and elsewhere before I celebrate. :D

CthulhuDalek
09-01-2010, 09:02
If that's the way the online groupthink eventually leans, I'll be overjoyed. After all, I play nids, so anything that makes the Pyrovore worthwhile will make me smile.

But I'm going to wait until it gets hashed out in the rules forum here and elsewhere before I celebrate. :D

It'd be great if that was the wording.

Think about it, ONE pyrovore then becomes even more valuable in hand to hand, than several pyrovores -- as a kamikaze weapon -- there's no benefit to having more, because 30 orks can only inflict the same number of unsaved wounds, anyway.

mchmr6677
09-01-2010, 15:23
It'd be great if that was the wording.

Think about it, ONE pyrovore then becomes even more valuable in hand to hand, than several pyrovores -- as a kamikaze weapon -- there's no benefit to having more, because 30 orks can only inflict the same number of unsaved wounds, anyway.

And, since CC requires "no holding back," the opponent cannot choose to not attack with some of his weapons.

Lord Cook
09-01-2010, 16:34
After all, I play nids, so anything that makes the Pyrovore worthwhile will make me smile.

No fear Shadowfax, I don't think anything will achieve that. ;)