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jay court
31-12-2009, 23:13
Was sorting out my codexes the other day & realised that the BT codex REALLY needs updating! Is it going to be left in the doldrums or are they going to be given an update?

P.s I'm a Dark Angel player.:cool:

LordofWar1986
31-12-2009, 23:14
They might not be updated for a while. Don't worry though, it is still a good codex to play :)

jay court
31-12-2009, 23:22
My only experience of The BT codex so far is playing one of our clubs players & even he said that it's showing its age!

Cognitave
31-12-2009, 23:28
It's not top tier, but I wouldn't underestimate a unit of assault termies with furious charge and preferred enemy...

rabblerouser
01-01-2010, 00:28
Thee are other chapters that need an update more. And many, many xenos that need updates too. You can still use templars with the regular marine codex to keep them competitive.

tuebor
01-01-2010, 00:31
Thee are other chapters that need an update more. And many, many xenos that need updates too.

There are other human factions (Inquisition) that need it too.

The BT codex really isn't that bad. They may be in the bottom half of armies but they're nowhere near Necron or Daemonhunter levels of bad.

stormboy
01-01-2010, 02:43
Truthfully, the Black Templars lost a step with the 5th Edition rules change. The Righteous Zeal Assault disappeared and the wargear is off a bit. But they are still not bottom tier. They have the ability to mix squads and benefit greatly from the new Armor Save rules. The ability to assign high AP shots to scouts is nice. Not to mention the ability to attach the Champion to a Terminator Assault Squad and then attach a Chapter Master to a kitted out Sword Bretheren Squad.

Are they the best Marines out there? No. But Marines are Marines. Don't count them out. Take a look at the codex and see the options that are available and try them until you find something that works in the current rule set.

Orcboy_Phil
01-01-2010, 03:08
Dear god, half the 5th ed codexes have been marine. Will we ever hear and end to there demands for more!

Corax
01-01-2010, 03:33
While I can understand why BT players might like a new Codex, I would suggest that BT is way down the list of armies that GW should be paying attention to in the near future. Its my belief that there is no need (other than GWs profit motive) for there even to be more than one Codex for all Space Marines. If you must have additional Codecies, they should only be for the most divergent of the Astartes Legions, not Chapters of subsequent foundings. I can live with DA, BA, and SW having their own books (although I think that it is largely unnecessary - a page of modifications in the main Codex for each such chapter would be more than sufficient IMO), but I don't believe that BT are sufficiently important to justify having their own Codex. That said, if they remade it as Codex: Imperial Fists so that if covered all the Chapters that descend from the IF, it would at least make a little more sense. Overall though, I see additional Space Marine Codecies as a bit of a luxury that comes at the expense of other armies that are sorely in need of an update.

lordmoon
01-01-2010, 04:14
Dear god, half the 5th ed codexes have been marine. Will we ever hear and end to there demands for more!

no, much like the demand for ice cream.

edit- I like ice cream

meno1
01-01-2010, 04:18
Black what?

Haha!

But seriously, BT isn't that bad. Also, there is rumours of either a BT/DA codex coming in the second semester of 2010. Which'll mean a welcomed update for my DA army, or I'll be starting BT!:cool:

lordmoon
01-01-2010, 04:25
if they have kits like the wolfs got to knight up your marines, I may give them a try.

tuebor
01-01-2010, 04:28
if they have kits like the wolfs got to knight up your marines, I may give them a try.

They do.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/2008/12/stgm-blacktemplar-crusader-sprue-16044156.jpg

lordmoon
01-01-2010, 04:35
I meant more along the lines of the wolfs, lots of extra heads ect.

tuebor
01-01-2010, 04:40
I meant more along the lines of the wolfs, lots of extra heads ect.

I haven't seen the new Wolf sprues, but since the Templar sprue came out in 2005 I'm sure it's quite as good.

lordmoon
01-01-2010, 04:46
they're very nice, with little effort every marine looks the part.

plus with scouts being plastic there will be extra bits to make them look like squires.

IcedAnimals
01-01-2010, 06:16
There are a bunch of templar heads in the kit as they tend to use different mark helmets. I love the BT upgrade sprues.

Arvendragon
01-01-2010, 08:33
I'd much prefer the Dark Angels. :D

And to think, once upon a time, the Black Templars were featured in a STARTER SET.
:O
Back in the days of 3rd edition, long before the Ultramarines. Back when every legion descendent chapter featured greatly. Back when Ultramarines could actually lose a battle.

LONG LIVE THE LEGIONS!

zoggin-eck
01-01-2010, 08:53
And to think, once upon a time, the Black Templars were featured in a STARTER SET.
:O
LONG LIVE THE LEGIONS!

No they were not, generic models painted as Black Templars for the glossy photos hardly counts.

What on earth are you talking about with "Back in the days of 3rd edition" that wasn't very long ago and little has changed. Black Templars have had more coverage than many others since 3rd edition started.

MajorWesJanson
01-01-2010, 11:24
Those upgrade sprues are nice, but the density of parts is nothing like the new sprues. Something like the wolf pack would be perfect, with parts for normal marines, scouts, and sword brethren vets all in 1 box.

the1stpip
01-01-2010, 11:37
There are at least four codexes that need attention long before anything else (and I think we all know what they are).

Bunnahabhain
01-01-2010, 15:18
One marine codex = no chapter left behind.

Dreaming aside, they don't need a new codex half as much as some others.

Pyriel
01-01-2010, 16:56
Black Templars?...
Assault Squads with all-meltabombs and Prefered Enemy...
Assault Termies with Prefered Enemy and Furious Charge...
shooty Dread with Tank Hunters...
tri-las pred costing 20 pts less...
chaplain that has 3 wounds and Command Squad with prefered Enemy and Furious Charge...

sure. i honestly agree that BT has way too many unuseable rules and units due to edition change. also that their competitive playstyle is one-dimensional.
BUT they have some freakish powerful options too. hte BT codex is still quite powerful for tournaments. its fluffy lists ofc suck, but imho fluffy lists shouldnt be concerned with balance anyways.

IcedAnimals
01-01-2010, 18:29
Why take a chaplain when your entire army already has prefered enemy. I much prefer taking a marshal for his ld 10 for the entire army.

ReveredChaplainDrake
01-01-2010, 18:42
Black Templars are absolutely still competitive. (More so than those silly "Codex Astartes" fools, I'd wager!) They're, as I've called them before, the next generation of Dark Eldar because their units are aged, slightly overpriced, and aren't as "current" as other similarly-armed brethren of the Emperor. But with their age comes strength in the form of unseen rules quirks (Smokes on a Crusader) and metagame changes (equalized Scouts, better Transports, actual Armories) that leave Templars considerably better off for being left behind.

Vulkan: "I make all our Thunder Hammers re-roll to hit!"
Emp's Champ: "Oh, really? So can I! By the way, can you re-roll hits with Chainswords, Combat Knives, Power Weapons, Power Fists, Chainfists, Lightning Claws, Dreadnought CCWs, and plain old fisticuffs?"
Vulkan: "Uh..."
Emp's Champ: "...oh yeah, and my Black Sword. Heh, silly me."

Canis007
01-01-2010, 19:47
I don't think the BT's are defined well enough in tabletop, I don't see alot of people playing them. But im a noob.

Arvendragon
01-01-2010, 19:56
But besides BT, only Ultra has been even shown in a starter set.

Bunnahabhain
01-01-2010, 20:32
And blood angels too-2nd ed.

aeoglas
01-01-2010, 21:01
I've several points to make.

One, I don't see the point of whining about Black Templars when you can whine about Dark Eldar, SOB, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, DH, Nids, Squats, Overpowered Chaos Marines, Nob biker, trukk spam or green tide Ork lists, or annoying internet-using thirteen year olds "wot speek lik' dis.":D

Note that the ones that whine the most are the ones who just can't play to save their life.

Two: I love Black Templars. If I ever collect a SM army (unlikely) it'd be them.

Three: If you are seriously unhappy about the rules for your current army, make your own. I know that it won't be usable in tournaments, but if you really want to play tournaments, count them as space marines, (ie Green marines for DA, Black marines for BT, Grey marines for SW Etc.). Or just get a different army.

Lord Malorne
01-01-2010, 21:16
Was sorting out my codexes the other day & realised that the BT codex REALLY needs updating! Is it going to be left in the doldrums or are they going to be given an update?

P.s I'm a Dark Angel player.:cool:

:mad:

No it does not, DA suck, take a look at the BT tactica, we need no update, I see no actual BT players asking for one, let alone whining about it like some other chapter players do, which just shows how much most BT players like their codex.

:evilgrin:


Thee are other chapters that need an update more. And many, many xenos that need updates too. You can still use templars with the regular marine codex to keep them competitive.

No, SM codex is balanced, not competitive, BT is far better.

Lord Malorne

jay court
01-01-2010, 21:54
DA's suck how? Don't forget I'm on your side!The fact that I'm campaigning for a BT update must account for something.

We don't need anymore members of the "I hate Dark Angels" club as the books are full & there's a waiting list to join.

Lord Malorne
01-01-2010, 22:03
Don't forget I'm on your side!The fact that I'm campaigning for a BT update must account for something.


How so? Black Templars need no update, if the book did it would simply be more powerful or weaker than it is, I don't need it more powerful, it is good enough, it can wait its turn, xenos first I say, weaker? That would be annoying as it is already a good book.

Thus I have no 'side' as I do not desire a new book.

Lord Malorne

S00N3R FR3AK
02-01-2010, 02:05
While I can understand why BT players might like a new Codex, I would suggest that BT is way down the list of armies that GW should be paying attention to in the near future. Its my belief that there is no need (other than GWs profit motive) for there even to be more than one Codex for all Space Marines. If you must have additional Codecies, they should only be for the most divergent of the Astartes Legions, not Chapters of subsequent foundings. I can live with DA, BA, and SW having their own books (although I think that it is largely unnecessary - a page of modifications in the main Codex for each such chapter would be more than sufficient IMO), but I don't believe that BT are sufficiently important to justify having their own Codex. That said, if they remade it as Codex: Imperial Fists so that if covered all the Chapters that descend from the IF, it would at least make a little more sense. Overall though, I see additional Space Marine Codecies as a bit of a luxury that comes at the expense of other armies that are sorely in need of an update.

Yeah I think have a IF codex with rules to cover BT and crimson fist would be cool.

Otherwise it is not a weak codex atm and others such as Daemonhunters, Necrons, and Dark Eldar need a update much more.

lordmoon
02-01-2010, 02:38
Daemonhunters no way, they have storm bolters man!

AmasNagol
02-01-2010, 07:27
Black Templars are competitive. One dimensionally so, but then so is the Chaos dex.

Mech up and get stuck in.

Voss
02-01-2010, 09:43
Ah, yes, the yet-another-close-combat chapter, made up for the Eye of terror booklet. What a joy when they got their own codex. If they were to shrink the line a bit, this would be book I'd pick to get tossed. Its not like you can't do Generic, SW or BA and get the same effect.

Corrode
02-01-2010, 11:37
Ah, yes, the yet-another-close-combat chapter, made up for the Eye of terror booklet. What a joy when they got their own codex. If they were to shrink the line a bit, this would be book I'd pick to get tossed. Its not like you can't do Generic, SW or BA and get the same effect.

Actually it's from Armageddon, so has a slightly longer pedigree - 3 years different to be precise. They were only featured in a sublist, much like Steel Legion Guard (OMG GUARD WITH MORE TANKS? WOW!), Speed Freak Orks (ORKS THAT LIKE TO GO FAST? ORIGINAL CONCEPT!) and Salamanders (actually a pretty different list - an even more extreme version of the close-range firefight concept).

The Templars actually do bring some pretty variant things, or did at one point. They had a unique Land Raider, they have mixed Tactical/Scout squads, the Emperor's Champion and the Vows, a more foot-based approach compared to jumping BAs or mechanised Wolves. It's probably more different than BAs or DAs - if I were going to pick a 'dex to disappear it'd be Dark Angels, since there's extremely little differentiation between them and the Codex Chapters (even if it's only because the poor buggers get all their 'different' things stolen from them!)

Sure, you can discount that as 'just run them as Blood Angels with foot assault squads', but that ignores the mixed units and the Emperor's Champion + vow system. They might be relatively 'new' but at this point they've had 10 years of fluff build-up, almost as long as Dark Eldar (in fact, given they've had a more recent 'dex and were featured heavily in Armageddon, they've actually probably had MORE fluff exposure than DE). Unless you want to nix DE as well it'd be pretty unfair to simply dismiss BT at this point.

That said, I could certainly see an argument for rolling some of the variant Chapters together - I still favour either a Chapters of Legend large-style book or at least an Angels of Death book (which sadly we won't see).

Rusty Initate
02-01-2010, 14:21
im happy with my Templars i really don't understand why people think they are rubbish you just got to play to there strengths and not play them as normal marines otherwise you might as well use Codex marines for that and also unlike other older codexes every unit in the codex is still usful in some way

our Crusader squads are one of the best troop choises in the game imo they can do what Tactical squads can do and much more the Emperors champ is a bargan for his stats and equipment and re roll all misses in combat (including Drednoghts) is one of the Templars main strengths


The Templars actually do bring some pretty variant things, or did at one point.

yes this was true till 5th edition marine codex stolen alot of the stuff that made us different like relic blades coming from the black sword and even a mini Emperors champ in the honour guard squad we also found the land raider crusader (i don't mind other chapters having this) but then the smurfs try to take some of the credit in the new codex "space marines" :mad:

Also about the idear putting Crimson fists and Imperial fists in the same codex isn't a good idear because they both follow Codex astarties very closly Imperial fists are said to rival the Ultramarines in following Codex Astarties and can easily be represented in codex "Space marines"

Xelloss
02-01-2010, 18:45
As a BT player, I would say the following thing : lots of things got very old in the BT codex, and could be easily fixed with a second print rather a full new codex. I fear such a codex because lots of things that makes BT what they are could be either correctly done or done completely wrong, stomping over the feeling that the BTs give...
Righteous Zeal can't assault into units any more, which was the main point of the rule before. Lots of things have seen their cost modified (free grenades, tank and transport much less expensive, assault canon price more accurately according to its real effectiveness), the loss of the extra attack on PF hurt much more when it's not on a sergeant, 3 out of 4 vows are useless now... And that's only what comes to my indd right now.
But on the other hand, an extra AC on termies is handy, old rule about frag stack with cover, we can still have vet skills and mini-dev squads to balance our missing dev squads...

I prefer an old codex to a butchered one, and I wait with anxiety our turn.

AmasNagol
02-01-2010, 19:50
Black Sword wasn't yours, you got it from the Sword of Secrets.

Basically, what made BT a very nasty army was the viability of footslogging forces in 4th Ed. Now that's not as effective, they are stuck in a bit of a limbo as to their actual strengths. But they still make a decent list because you can really fine tune them to be a nasty 0-12" range threat.

Lord Malorne
02-01-2010, 22:24
I have played mech BT since they where released in 3rd, I have had no problems and will have no problems, if I was as sad as some people who sig their victories you would see, but alas, that would be sad and biased.

This incarnation of the black sword is likely based off of the sword of secrets, but the 3rd ed one was either a 'frost blade' or a 'power fist' which I liked but the S6 sword is alright TBH.

Lord Malorne

Paul Nexus
02-01-2010, 22:38
But besides BT, only Ultra has been even shown in a starter set.

Were not Crimson Fists the marine poster boys for a bit? I recall they were also on the 2nd ed. Rulebook cover.

I do not think that Black Templars are in dire need for an update. They are still a strong list and have certain advantages to make up for the extra units in the Space Marines codex.

IcedAnimals
02-01-2010, 22:47
I really enjoy my black templar army. I could happily go a few years before a new codex. It does have a lot of outdated rules in it some of which play to our advantage.

Red Beard
03-01-2010, 02:12
I havent seen a BT army in at least two years.

Black Templars are always in the back of my mind. I have always wanted to build a huge crusading BT force. The problem I have is when I first started playing I started with DA. So I remain very loyal to the DA. BT where over played where I began playing and the first couple of places I moved to. It seemed that everyone had black armored marines or BT. So I stayed away. I did manage to buy the codex and thought it was very neat. But there in part of the fluff it talked about how the DA showed up took back a "fallen" DA and then the BT ship dissappeared. I took that as a sign. I still want to build one. I just dont think I ever will.

Corax
05-01-2010, 04:11
Were not Crimson Fists the marine poster boys for a bit? I recall they were also on the 2nd ed. Rulebook cover.

No, its been fairly spread around, actually. You probably feel like the Crimson Fists got more screen time because they were on the cover of the Most Holy Rogue Trader. During second ed. there was no standalone rulebook. There was only the books that came in the 40k boxed set, which had Blood Angels on it (IIRC), and the Dark Millennium expansion box (Which had Deathwing on the cover). Everything else was in the Codices.

I believe the chronology of covers is:

(MH)RT - Crimson Fists (heroic last stand - presumably during the Rynn's World campaign)

2nd Ed - Blood Angels (Rulebook) / Dark Angels (Dark Millennium)

3rd Ed - Black Templars recreation of the (MH)RT cover. A re-imaging of the original Crimson Fists version was on the cover of Codex Space Marines.

4th Ed. - N/A. No army picture on the rulebook cover. (Ultramarines on the cover of Codex Space Marines).

5th Ed. - N/A. No army picture on the rulebook cover. (Ultramarines on the cover of Codex Space Marines).

pookie
05-01-2010, 12:09
Ah, yes, the yet-another-close-combat chapter, made up for the Eye of terror booklet. What a joy when they got their own codex. If they were to shrink the line a bit, this would be book I'd pick to get tossed. Its not like you can't do Generic, SW or BA and get the same effect.

so your saying the BT were created for the EoT campaign?

ignore (the following ) if if missed your point.

BT have been aorund since WD 130, they predate the EoT by soem time, learn the history of a Force before spouting off nonsence.

MegaPope
05-01-2010, 12:34
He got the book wrong. They were created for the Armageddon 3 campaign. Later they got their own book - which at the time I thought something of a mystery. At the time they were pretty much built around the Emperor's Champion and the Land Raider Crusader.

Especially the Crusader...that's why they had the option for 15 man squads in the first place, although the tank itself was an effort to make a better Terminator bus.

The current army list is still serviceable - it would only really need a little retrospective tweaking to bring it to 5ed standards. In fact, with 5ed's apparent emphasis on mechanisation, they're still pretty fearsome - I mean, they get Crusaders as dedicated transports! I think the restrictions on certain units suit them - they're a non-standard chapter based on hard-hitting aggressive tactics. It's meant to be an exploration of what Marine Chapters are like in full Crusading mode. The BTs are the absolute exemplars of this, so there you go...

Which makes them one of the few Marine forces that might be able to justifyably use the Space Wolves Codex as a template (apart from the Rune Priests ;) ) but I have to say that I rather like the idea of space-borne Teutonic Knights.

Lord Malorne
05-01-2010, 15:02
Which makes them one of the few Marine forces that might be able to justifyably use the Space Wolves Codex as a template (apart from the Rune Priests ;) ) but I have to say that I rather like the idea of space-borne Teutonic Knights.

No, any player who does that deserves no respect.

Lord Malorne

mdauben
05-01-2010, 15:22
Was sorting out my codexes the other day & realised that the BT codex REALLY needs updating! Is it going to be left in the doldrums or are they going to be given an update?
It could be argued that any Codex older than the current C:SM is in need of updating, but honestly there are a number of armies that need updating much more desparatly than the BT do (Dark Eldar, Daemonhunters, and Necrons just to name three). I'm sure that BT will get an update at some point, but I would not expect it any time soon.

jay court
05-01-2010, 17:19
Dark Eldar, if all the rumours are true are done. Daemonhunters are meant to be in a multi-ordo codex.

Necrons I heard were meant to be before the 'Nids. The Chaos codex desperatly needs doing as it's broken. (for all the wrong reasons).

pookie
05-01-2010, 17:23
Dark Eldar, if all the rumours are true are done. Daemonhunters are meant to be in a multi-ordo codex.

Necrons I heard were meant to be before the'Nids. The Chaos codex desperatly needs doing as it's broken. (for all the wrong reasons).

id stop listening to those rumours, after all, Crons cant be before Nids can they?

DE have been in the pipeline since about a week after there last Dex was released so thats not a hard one, and the best and trusted rumour some of us have heard is that there IS NOT going to be a mixed Ordos Dex.

the Chaos Dex is only broken in some peoples eyes, and it was written whilst 5th was being developed, so shold be seen as a 5th (imo) Dex.


**edit** im sceptical that DE are done, but i do have it on good advice ( from on here ) that they are, so im staying silent on this.

GremlinXLT
05-01-2010, 17:39
I've just gotten tired of falling off objectives/table from losing 1 guy. Trying to squeeze in a marshal for LD 10 is still a pain. Zeal actually lost a tourny for me on Sat. It was a 750 teams tourny. Was playing last game and everything that could shot the squad and the got one scout. Rolled a 9 on the test and started running.

The last time I had zeal gain me anything at all was when I ran a chaplain with 3 servitors and a 15man foot squad. That was just because I zealed away from a close combat squad towards a tank on the other side of the board.

Lord Malorne
05-01-2010, 17:59
Read the rule for zeal, you do not have to move the full distance.

Lord Malorne

jay court
05-01-2010, 18:07
I meant the 'Cron codex was ORIGINALLY meant to be before the 'Nid codex in terms of a release date.

GremlinXLT
05-01-2010, 18:12
I failed the test so I had to fall back. Guess I forgot to state that. It should have taken at least 3 kills. On top of that vanilla marines would have been ld9.

I fail so many moral/leadership tests I have to take a marshall. Its just next to impossible to fit one in low pt games.

MegaPope
05-01-2010, 19:40
No, any player who does that deserves no respect.

I'm just pulling your chain, my friend. No need to be so serious :)

I'm actually contemplating an army of them at some point in the future, since I recently dug out my copy of the codex.

Lyinar
05-01-2010, 22:26
The Black Templars don't need an update, they have the Holy Hand Grenade! :p

Seriously, though... I scrapped my Templars when 5th Edition hit because I'd pretty much abandoned them beforehand and wanted to do other things. Parts of battle-brothers who fought valiantly on Medusa V have turned up in at least two armies I've done since then.

Plus, I've gotten a hell of a lot better at painting and modeling since then.

Xelloss
06-01-2010, 08:47
I failed the test so I had to fall back. Guess I forgot to state that. It should have taken at least 3 kills. On top of that vanilla marines would have been ld9.

Imagine how you feel when in the first turn you lose a guy from a random kroot shooting that can see only him through a window (damned GW ruins that can't really block LoS), roll 11 on the moral test, roll 12 on the fall back move, and get out the table 10 initiates, 5 neophytes and your Senechal fully geared in a 1000pt game ?
(Fun fact : that made me win the game, as it was the broken alliance scenario and the two other players totally ignored my army after that)

pookie
11-01-2010, 17:01
I failed the test so I had to fall back. Guess I forgot to state that. It should have taken at least 3 kills. On top of that vanilla marines would have been ld9.

I fail so many moral/leadership tests I have to take a marshall. Its just next to impossible to fit one in low pt games.

if you sat on a objective and really dont want to give it up, go to ground.