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delpheus
02-01-2010, 05:06
While point crunching to determine the best possible space marine list, i discovered a massive points variance.

I first noticed this when attempting to design a Death Wing list. With a missile launcher, the termi squad is 5 points more than a 5th ed Space Marine terminator squad (and the Death WIng are inferior -- the missile launcher fires 1 less shot).

I thought this was odd, so i opened the new space wolf codex to compare them as well. A wolf terminator squad was a staggering 35 points cheaper than the 5th ed Space Marines. Not only cheaper, but BETTER when you factor in SW special rules.

This point variance won't have significant impact squad vs squad, however, this point variance is prevalent through the entire codex to the point that Space Marines armies of the exact same composition may have significantly lower/higher model count depending on the source chapter.

The list i designed was set for 1000pts.

Ranking in at #1 most cost effective and flexible space marine chapter is the Space Wolves. They are significantly cheaper than standard space marines.

Rune Priest Terminator

Battle Terminators
-Missiles

Battle Terminators
-Missiles

6 man Tac-Squad
-Flamer

6 man Tac-Squad
-Flamer

Razorback
-ARMOR

Razorback
-ARMOR

SPEEDER
-Missiles
-MMelta

SPEEDER
-Missiles
-MMelta

To have the same list using the 5th ed SM codex:
-This list is 112 points over
-You lose the SW special rules.

However, there is on redeeming factor:
-SW termies cannot teleport (unless that was fluff)

My original Death Wing list was 70 points over only because I cannot take 6 man squads.

Food for thought.

Hicks
02-01-2010, 05:43
Yes it's a pretty well known thing that the DA have a weak codex and that the SW have a ridiculously strong one compared to the other marines. When the SW codex came out, the board was flooded with people who wanted to use it for "count as" armies. People wanted to use it to represent anything from World Eaters to Necrons and Tau, that's how much powerfull that codex is compared to the others. Funily enough, nobody wants to use the new Tyranid codex to represent their armies...

starlight
02-01-2010, 06:06
Yet... :p Let's give it a month or so of gaming... ;)

Hicks
02-01-2010, 06:10
Yet... :p Let's give it a month or so of gaming... ;)

Trust me, nothing would make me happier than seeing masses of SW players dropping their codex to field Njialanthropes and Logan Grimmfexes with a new powerfull nid codex.

Cognitave
02-01-2010, 06:10
Yes it's a pretty well known thing that the DA have a weak codex and that the SW have a ridiculously strong one compared to the other marines. When the SW codex came out, the board was flooded with people who wanted to use it for "count as" armies. People wanted to use it to represent anything from World Eaters to Necrons and Tau, that's how much powerfull that codex is compared to the others. Funily enough, nobody wants to use the new Tyranid codex to represent their armies...

Oh God, I remember those threads. I recommended Catachan IG in one of them, and got yelled at. :angel:

Delpheus, although that list is legal, it's very, very weak. You're forgetting that to give a SW termy TH/SS, you double his cost. But you're comparing a Porsche to a BMW to a Triumph. There's no codex creep, the Dark Angel one is old and the vanilla marines one is pretty poorly written.

lordmoon
02-01-2010, 06:12
now that you know the truth you must leave the hobby, goodbye delpheus

delpheus
02-01-2010, 06:20
i have already left the hobby. my friends are trying to convince me to get back into it. i see no reason too, and studying the obvious codex creep has compelled me to take a few more steps back. unless of course i play one of these horribly broken armies, which might be fun for a month or two, until GW releases some more under-costed and more powerful.

Occulto
02-01-2010, 06:20
Now compare it to a fearless, mixed-weapon terminator squad that can deepstrike in the first turn. :p

Grand Master Raziel
02-01-2010, 06:37
There's definately nothing wrong with Deathwing Assault, but I honestly wouldn't do much weapon mixing. I'm finding a Terminator Squad with the standard tactical loadout to be a big stick I can always rely on. About the only thing I'd change up would be to throw in a sergeant with a pair of L-claws, because the power sword armed sergeant is just not that worthwhile.

It's also nice to throw in Belial and have Terminators as Troops choices. As it happens, Belial is also considerably cheaper than a vanilla SM Captain with the pair of L-claws I field him with. The SM Captain has better WS and a better ward save, but Belial, in addition to the Termie-troops thing, also has Rites of Battle, giving you Ld10 across the board while he's alive. Not bad at all for what you pay for him.

delpheus
02-01-2010, 06:42
There's definately nothing wrong with Deathwing Assault, but I honestly wouldn't do much weapon mixing. I'm finding a Terminator Squad with the standard tactical loadout to be a big stick I can always rely on. About the only thing I'd change up would be to throw in a sergeant with a pair of L-claws, because the power sword armed sergeant is just not that worthwhile.

It's also nice to throw in Belial and have Terminators as Troops choices. As it happens, Belial is also considerably cheaper than a vanilla SM Captain with the pair of L-claws I field him with. The SM Captain has better WS and a better ward save, but Belial, in addition to the Termie-troops thing, also has Rites of Battle, giving you Ld10 across the board while he's alive. Not bad at all for what you pay for him.

however deathwing is inferior since their missile launchers only fire 1 shot and their shields only get a 4+ in melee, so in that respect I count them as overcosted.

Occulto
02-01-2010, 06:49
There's definately nothing wrong with Deathwing Assault, but I honestly wouldn't do much weapon mixing. I'm finding a Terminator Squad with the standard tactical loadout to be a big stick I can always rely on. About the only thing I'd change up would be to throw in a sergeant with a pair of L-claws, because the power sword armed sergeant is just not that worthwhile.

It's more about the ability to throw a heavy weapon in an assault squad, than anything else.

If you've got the points, it's handy to throw in a missile launcher. Sure, it might not have two shots, but I treat it like a hunter killer missile that doesn't run out of ammo. :p

Then there's the DA Terminator Librarian + 4 x LCs + Fist/Flamer + Banner + LRC combination - which I suspect will be employed more often if Nid hordes are the new black. Pricey, but beautiful to watch when it goes off right. :D


It's also nice to throw in Belial and have Terminators as Troops choices. As it happens, Belial is also considerably cheaper than a vanilla SM Captain with the pair of L-claws I field him with. The SM Captain has better WS and a better ward save, but Belial, in addition to the Termie-troops thing, also has Rites of Battle, giving you Ld10 across the board while he's alive. Not bad at all for what you pay for him.

Agreed. 130 points is a bargain for everything you get - sure he might not have the WS6, but WS5 is enough to chomp through most rank 'n' file units.


however deathwing is inferior since their missile launchers only fire 1 shot and their shields only get a 4+ in melee, so in that respect I count them as overcosted.

Which is why you won't find many DA players using those particular options - doesn't mean DW units as a whole are overcosted (or if they are, it's not significant).

But if you take Belial, then Deathwing are most certainly superior if they're the ones sitting on the objective. Similarly, Deathwing are superior when my opponent's terminators have failed their morale check and run off the table. :D

Cognitave
02-01-2010, 06:49
Talk to the people at your gaming group. Just ask them if you can use the 5th edition versions of the equipment. Lord knows you're not getting it any cheaper...

And if "codex creep" is such a big deal for you, I'd advise you stay out of the hobby. It will save you much frustration.

AmasNagol
02-01-2010, 07:00
Tell me how many points difference there is between a 5 man TH/SS Terminator squad from the cheap Space Wolf codex and the over priced Space Marine one.

Thanks

Cognitave
02-01-2010, 07:12
5 TH/SS Wolf Guard = 315
5 TH/SS Vanilla Termies = 200

115 points for no teleporting, but Counter Attack and Acute Senses. Totally worth it.

havokas
02-01-2010, 07:18
Im sick of these dam arguments. i dont belive in the codex creep, the point values are justified within their own codexes. just because they both wear power-armor dose not make them the same army hence diffrent rulebooks.

starlight
02-01-2010, 07:22
Im sick of these dam arguments. i dont belive in the codex creep, the point values are justified within their own codexes. just because they both wear power-armor dose not make them the same army hence diffrent rulebooks.

Then don't participate... :p

Codex Creep has long been established as an unfortunate reality of GW's desire to sell more models by making new books/armies better than existing ones...although they get it wrong on occasion...whether you believe in it or not doesn't make it untrue...

lordmoon
02-01-2010, 07:25
or just let the space wolf players have their fun and keep on trucking with your chosen army. thats what most of us are doing and have done for years. my sisters have plenty of over costed units/ gear and I dont plan on leaving the hobby.

food for thought.

Egaeus
02-01-2010, 08:05
Im sick of these dam arguments. i dont belive in the codex creep, the point values are justified within their own codexes. just because they both wear power-armor dose not make them the same army hence diffrent rulebooks.

Except that when you can make the exact same army with two different books and have different points values then you ought to notice something is out of whack.

Just because some of the options are different doesn't change the fact that the basic same units in different armies will have essentially the same impact on the game. Paying a premium on options you might use doesn't make for a balanced game. And when the game is fundamentally based on points values for units and options it just shows bad game design.

Lothlanathorian
02-01-2010, 08:09
Codex creep is real, but I don't think it is this horrible, reality breaking monster that everyone is crying foul, ducks and shenanigans over. I mean, c'mon, Dark Eldar are still brutal as the day they were conceived in that stinky room with the musty mattress.

And Space Marines and Space Wolves have two completely different play styles. Just because one Codex is noticeably more powerful than others doesn't mean it can't be beaten. If mathhammer and number crunching was all it took to win this game, then, well, I can't think of anything witty or poignant to say, but you get my point, so deal with it.

Then there is the fact the each new codex is written by someone else, plus the edition gap, plus not even GW seem to have a firm grasp on the rules in the BRB itself.

Deetwo
02-01-2010, 08:22
If codex creep was a reality, Orks Eldar and CSM would not be at the top right now... Also SW and Daemons would be clearly more powerful than these three, but they definitely are not.
Not to mention sometimes an army even gets MORE powerful as time goes by.. Like Dark Eldar and WH have.

And the comparison between vanilla SM and SW is rather silly, considering that list is far from optimal for either.
You have to realize that despite both being marines... They are still self contained, separate armies and their points costs do not have to reflect eachother.

Lothlanathorian
02-01-2010, 08:29
If you want to see serious power creep to get in a huff over, go play HeroClix.

carlisimo
02-01-2010, 08:39
Lack of teleporting is a big deal to a lot of people! Think of how many points transports cost.

IJW
02-01-2010, 09:25
A wolf terminator squad was a staggering 35 points cheaper than the 5th ed Space Marines.
You presumably missed the bit where Wolf Guard Termies come with Power Weapons as standard rather than Powerfists. Give them Powerfists to match and they are actually more expensive than 5th ed. SM. Not by a lot, though.

Voss
02-01-2010, 09:32
Its important to realize that the wolf terminator squads are armed with power weapons and not power fists, and thats why they're cheaper.

Upgrade 4 to fists (to match a standard terminator squad) and they do in fact cost more.

Of course, try to do thunder hammer/storm shields and they are much, much more- even lightning claws are significantly more.

I'm not sure what the reasoning is that space wolves are more flexible, either. Wolf guard aside, they have fewer options all around. The wolf equivalents of scouts and tactical squads in particular have fewer options available to them, though they do have rules (and basic equipment in the case of grey hunters) benefits.

And that doesn't even touch the specialist kit thats available to vanilla marines and is simply denied to the wolves, like Ironclads, storms, dedicated attack bike squads with a decent BS, and more.

But when you get down to it, a lot of the point difference between the wolves and vanilla books make sense. Wolves are paying for counterattack in places, normal marines have sergeants built into their squads, wolf bikes have crappy bs & ws. If things were the same, there _really_ wouldn't be a need for separate books.

Even the DA codex has its own advantages. Fearless bikes with scout moves and built in teleport homers synergize really, really well with Deathwing assault.

The BA pdf and DA codex have some odd pricing gaffs with some of the vehicles (compared to the more recent books), but several of the point costs and composition differences make sense based on what they're getting (free death company, fearless or whatever they're particular special rules are.


On a side note, your list struggles rather badly with armor. Pop the landspeeders (which isn't much of a challenge) and you're down to a handful of krak missiles and... nothing else than can crack armored targets. Build a 1000 point list to the other books' strength, and you might just do better.

Corrode
02-01-2010, 11:28
You presumably missed the bit where Wolf Guard Termies come with Power Weapons as standard rather than Powerfists. Give them Powerfists to match and they are actually more expensive than 5th ed. SM. Not by a lot, though.

The genius in the OP has also ignored the fact that his 'Tacticals' are at Ld8 whereas a generic squad comes with a Ld9 Veteran Sergeant. He's also comparing oranges to sultanas a bit, because an equivalent SM squad wouldn't get the flamer until they were a full 10man but would gain the advantages of a free ML, MM or heavy bolter whereas unless you take a flamer the Space Wolves are going to be paying for at least one weapon. Grey Hunters are pretty cheap for what they give you, but the rest of the SW list isn't exactly spectacular. That, and whilst the SW do get arguably better rules (Counter-Attack at least, Acute Senses is only good for a single turn of a single mission type at the moment), you can't just discount Combat Tactics, especially given that some of the cost of the various Chapter Tactics rules is borne by CoT.

The rune priest and paired Terminator squads are also walking, which will be loads of fun if someone has a couple plasma cannons. The equivalent SM squads have the option to deep strike, and considering there's about 500pts in that one combo I'd quite like them not to be stuck slogging at the back. If you buy the SW drop pods to compensate then suddenly the cost looks a little more even, though they do then have a better DS.

tl;dr the OP wins the Reactionary Frothing Smartarse award for this week, and continues Warseer's long running trend of trying and failing to prove 'codex creep' exists.

AmasNagol
02-01-2010, 18:53
Codex Creep does exist, but not in such simplistic terms as adding up the costs of individual squads for very specific equipment load outs.

And there ends today's discussion.

Grand Master Raziel
02-01-2010, 20:08
I will admit this much: there is a considerable power differential between Codex: Dark Angels and Codex: Space Marines. However, I do not believe the reason for that is some deliberate, insidious plan to make us buy more models. Instead, I think that Mat Ward gained insight from reaction to Codex: Dark Angels and tweaked things accordingly. There were a lot of things that were too expensive that got priced down, and a lot of upgrades that were inadequate that got made adequate (cyclone and typhoon missile launchers being the biggest examples). Where Codex: Space Marines goes off the rails is where new stuff got added - particularly the special characters and their attached chapter tactics. That was a completely new system that Mat didn't have any previous examples to use as a base, which is why it's the part of Codex: Space Marines that might legitimately be considered broken.

Cognitave
02-01-2010, 20:17
I agree with GMR 100%.

Yes, the codex writers do have an obligation to the company to help sell models. But if GW pushed codex creep as much as people think they are, they'd kill the game. Eventually, people would just get frustrated and quit. Using power creep as an excuse, though, separates the strong players from the weak IMO (which is why I admire Necron players).

tl;dr yes codex creep exists, but compared to the billions of other factors that play into codex creation, the effect is practically nothing.

The pestilent 1
02-01-2010, 20:57
By this logic the new Dark Eldar Codex will have 100pt Corsair escorts making bombing runs on the... Continent.
Sounds like fun to me

Drakkisath
02-01-2010, 21:15
Are Ravenwing bikers still prohibited from Turbo Boosting during the scout move?

IJW
02-01-2010, 21:15
Yes, they are.

NightLord
02-01-2010, 22:26
In general I say all the dex's are balanced. Just because you can make the same army for a different points cost doesn't mean anything meaningful at all... Every army has its own feel, and its own rules... I still feel that dark angels are a good dex in the right hands... And I've seen necrons crush power gaming lists. A good general beats a good list everyday of the week. Don't cry about it and quit the game... Just be an active player instead of reactive.

MegaPope
02-01-2010, 22:35
Yes, the codicies are different - Regular SM, Angels, Wolves, Templars - for reasons that may or may not be valid. Ditto for different points costs.

What makes me :wtf: is why the same pieces of equipment have different rules in each codex. You know the offenders - Storm Shields, Smoke Launchers, Assault Cannons - there's probably a few others as well.

There is simply no reason for these to be different - it's the same thing whoever is using it surely? Are the Dark Angels and Black Templars using inferior batteries or something? Is it yet another Ultramarine conspiracy to stay the best? I'll bet at least one person will think it is ;)

To not FAq things like this is sheer pig-headedness, and profits no one. Ditto for not making SM basic equipment standard to all regular Marines (i.e Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frags) and for the placement of certain units in the FOC, like Techmarines.

Lord Damocles
02-01-2010, 22:39
To not FAq things like this is sheer pig-headedness, and profits no one.
To be fair, the Dark Angels FAQ does address the differences in Wargear between various codexes.

It just so happens that the 'answer' to the question is rather hillarious.

Drakkisath
02-01-2010, 22:45
To be fair, the Dark Angels FAQ does address the differences in Wargear between various codexes.

It just so happens that the 'answer' to the question is rather hillarious.

IIRC, it's something along the lines of "Figure it out for yourselves."

Lothlanathorian
02-01-2010, 23:09
Well, making an errata for a Codex from the previous edition isn't how you sell the new ones. On top of the fact that it was written for different rules with different codices against it. By the time they finished writing those erratas they would have all new codices for the armies in question. They might as well just wait and write a whole new codex with all the updates needed for it to function in compatibility with the current core rules.

And seriously, what the hell kind of logic is 'My codex is from a previous ruleset and is older than the very newest one, so why aren't the rules in it as up to date and fresh as the new one? Man, I wish they would just keep the game stagnant and not change so I didn't have to try:cries:'

Narf
02-01-2010, 23:16
sorry dont know if its been said but

SW come in at 33 without PF's, and 43 with them, this is more than normal SM

SW cannot deepstrike unless you buy them a DP, which costs 35pts.

If you take an equivelent SW unit, 5 termi's, 4 SB, 4 PF, and 1 AC, 1PW with DP comes to 270 - compare this to either DA who teleport there units in on the first turn, or vanilla who are run of the mill then who wins on points guys.

Dont even start on the whole wargear mismatch too, yes DA get 4++ SS, we get pointless cost ones so they never get taken

Occulto
02-01-2010, 23:42
I will admit this much: there is a considerable power differential between Codex: Dark Angels and Codex: Space Marines. However, I do not believe the reason for that is some deliberate, insidious plan to make us buy more models. Instead, I think that Mat Ward gained insight from reaction to Codex: Dark Angels and tweaked things accordingly. There were a lot of things that were too expensive that got priced down, and a lot of upgrades that were inadequate that got made adequate (cyclone and typhoon missile launchers being the biggest examples). Where Codex: Space Marines goes off the rails is where new stuff got added - particularly the special characters and their attached chapter tactics. That was a completely new system that Mat didn't have any previous examples to use as a base, which is why it's the part of Codex: Space Marines that might legitimately be considered broken.

Which is simply an issue with rolling codex release cycle - nothing more.

Stepping back and looking at things objectively, I believe DA could be brought up to speed, but it would take more than a FAQ saying: "use the SM rules wherever there's a difference."

While I'd dearly love to get scoring units of terminators with 3++ storm shields and a 2 shot cyclone launchers, teleporting off RW bikers that have turbo-boosted in the scout phase, I can see that with the current point costs, that might be a little OTT. :p

Badger[Fr]
03-01-2010, 00:50
There's no codex creep, the Dark Angel one is old and the vanilla marines one is pretty poorly written.
Indeed.



Codex Creep has long been established as an unfortunate reality of GW's desire to sell more models by making new books/armies better than existing ones...although they get it wrong on occasion...whether you believe in it or not doesn't make it untrue...
There are plenty of counterexamples to such a statement, be it the Craftworld Eldar Codex, the 3.5 CSM book, or the 3rd Edition rulebook IG list.

And let's not mention Edition creep. Newer Codices tend to be stronger because they are written with the the current ruleset in mind, whereas outdated books suffer from unavoidable discrepencies.



If you take an equivelent SW unit, 5 termi's, 4 SB, 4 PF, and 1 AC, 1PW with DP comes to 270 - compare this to either DA who teleport there units in on the first turn, or vanilla who are run of the mill then who wins on points guys.
To be honest, there is no point in buying four Powerfists in a single Terminator squad. The SW and CSM Terminators greatest asset is their versatility. I'd rather have a couple of powerfists and plenty of dirt-cheap combi-weapons than a whole squad of useless powerfists.

Grand Master Raziel
03-01-2010, 07:03
I think it should also be pointed out that 5th edition's Codex: Space Marines is a huge net nerf over 4th edition's Codex: Space Marines. For sheer power and abusability, all the new toys and the chapter tactics don't even slightly measure up to Veteran Skills, FOC-bending, and the other options made possible by the Trait system - not to mention the ubiquitious 6-man lasplas squad. If the OP's hypothesis were correct, then the current Codex: Space Marines ought to be quite a bit more powerful than the last one, when it's actually quite a bit less powerful. It's just more powerful than Codex: Dark Angels.

shabbadoo
03-01-2010, 07:30
Which of course is because the DA codex was written before the next incarnation of Space Marines had been fully nailed down. I completely agreed about the 4E SM codex, and don't forget the 4 HQ choices(or was it 6?) in one list too. It was just a poorly written codex which creeped all over everything else in that edition of the game.

Codex creep can only be compare within a game edition, and I don't see Space Wolves being more powerful than vanilla marines at all. they do have some powerful things, but they are also missing a lot of powerful things that vanilla marines can take. The two codexes compare well enough when taken as a whole. Imperial Guard compare with both of them favorably too, and it is not an over/under powered codex either. I'll reserve judgment on Tyranids until I have the chance to play with/against them with a few different armies, but so far the 5E codexes look pretty good so far as balancing out against one another is concerned.

Grand Master Raziel
03-01-2010, 14:51
Which of course is because the DA codex was written before the next incarnation of Space Marines had been fully nailed down. I completely agreed about the 4E SM codex, and don't forget the 4 HQ choices(or was it 6?) in one list too. It was just a poorly written codex which creeped all over everything else in that edition of the game.

But for all of that, it was a model of balance compared to Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Craftworld Eldar.