PDA

View Full Version : why are pyrovore's so bad?



pyrovore
02-01-2010, 18:32
i was thinking about the question above and i don't think it would be too bad to take pyrovores in units.

they may be pretty useless on their own with only 1 attack but 3 pyrovore's on the charge may actually kill something- (or finish the unit after the template attack).

Sons of Alaitoc v.2
02-01-2010, 18:40
The main reason for me is that they are 20 per model, so even if that squad of 3 is good, I could buy a battleforce, or two trygons for that

massey
02-01-2010, 18:42
Three reasons.

1) They're competing with Zoanthropes and Hive Guard, which are both much better units for your Elites slots.

2) They're very vulnerable. T4, 2W, and 4+ Sv is not that durable. So they make an easy kill point.

3) They don't kill much. They aren't fast and they don't hit hard. You get a heavy flamer and 1 power weapon attack (2 on the charge) from a creature with a 4 Str. They don't hit hard enough to make up for the problems of #s 1 and 2.

itcamefromthedeep
02-01-2010, 18:51
Pyrovores are much like Biovores, except with a heavy flamer instead of the spore mine launcher. Biovores are relatively fragile, so it's good that they can go hide far from the enemy army.

Pyrovores bring power weapons and acid blood, but for close combat purposes that just isn't enough to overcome the stat line. The fact that they may explode when they die prevents them from being an attractive choice for running beside Gaunts or Genestealers. They can function if you use them in conjunction with a Drop Spore. This would allow them to hose light infantry squads. Unfortunately you have to kill any transport first (if a transport is there). The retaliation would almost certainly kill the Pyorvores. Toughness four, two wounds and a 4+ save are not exactly sturdy.

The saving grace of their close combat ability is that when they die, they may bring a lot of light infantry with them.

The problem is that Biovores do just about the same thing against light infantry, but they can do it without dying in the process.

Clang
02-01-2010, 19:07
It's a mystery. GW went to all the trouble of making such a nice new model, but no one seems impressed by the rules for it (unless we're all missing some terribly clever strategy?) - in fact I know several people who will be buying the model just use as a 'counts as' biovore :)

Ventus
02-01-2010, 19:15
The points mentioned above make me reluctant to want a pyrovore. The elite slot is definitely going to get clogged with zoeys and hive guard leaving little room for other things. I really like the idea of a tyranid acid spray using the flame template but I hoped it would have range like the hellhound and the model would be toughness 5. Well, when I get the codex than I'll see if it has any additional rules that make it viable.

Getifa Ubazza
02-01-2010, 19:46
While the model is stunning and I will be getting one. I can't see me using it in games, unless I'm playing my son or a noob. It's a real shame that we will not see this lovely model in many armies being used for what it actually is.

Lord Damocles
02-01-2010, 19:59
i was thinking about the question above and i don't think it would be too bad to take pyrovores in units.
What makes you so sure that they won't be able to be fielded in units?

pyrovore
02-01-2010, 20:05
What makes you so sure that they won't be able to be fielded in units?

1) i did not say that statement i said they would be better in units.

2) can a hive tyrant give a unit outflank? -(i heard this on a rumor website dont know if its true) if yes a unit of pyrovore's would be good to come on fire three heavy flamers than have 6 power weapon attacks to finish them off- wouuld that be good?

LonelyPath
02-01-2010, 20:07
What makes you so sure that they won't be able to be fielded in units?

I was wondering that also, if they can be taken in units. But still 20 a model is alot of money.

enigma-96
02-01-2010, 20:08
I'm confused the pyrovore is apparently 50pts of, essentially, auto-GeQ kill with its flamer, it has decent power attacks for meq, it can come out of a trygon tunnel, apparently, and Acid Blood works in such a way that it is based on the number of wounds before saves are appplied.
I don't know about you but that sounds like an awesmoe elite unit killer right there, run in kill one or two with power weapons then take huge overkill wounds and watch those expensive elites fail toughness test after toughness test with no armor saves.
Don't nidz get rolled by dedicated CC, like orks or berzerkers etc.? If so then make them suffer for overkilling your pittily 50 point unit.

Please note everything I've stated as been quoted for truth by a few people who have "read" the codex.

itcamefromthedeep
02-01-2010, 20:50
2) can a hive tyrant give a unit outflank?
Troops choices only, I believe.


I'm confused the pyrovore is apparently 50pts of, essentially, auto-GeQ kill with its flamer, it has decent power attacks for meq, it can come out of a trygon tunnel, apparently, and Acid Blood works in such a way that it is based on the number of wounds before saves are applied.
It would be really odd if saved wounds against Pyrovores cause Acid Blood hits. You might want to check that again.

Pyrovores have power weapon attacks, but not a lot of Attacks, a bad Weapon Skill, and a terrible Initiative. A single Pyrovore would be lucky to make Attacks against a Tactical Squad. It might kill a few, but not with it's Attacks. Really, the power weapon on the Pyrovore looks to me like a trap to trick you into thinking that it's a close combat unit.

RampagingRavener
02-01-2010, 20:53
I don't know about you but that sounds like an awesmoe elite unit killer right there, run in kill one or two with power weapons then take huge overkill wounds and watch those expensive elites fail toughness test after toughness test with no armor saves.

Okay. Three Pyrovores is just below 150 points. For that, you get 6 T4, 4+ save wounds. Right away, that's a fragile unit. They pop in one hit from a Missile Launcher and can easily be torn apart by small arms fire as they close with the enemy. This can be circumvented by buying them a Spore Pod (increasing their cost further) or having them arrive from a Trygon's tunnel (risky; if the Pyrovores arrive before the Trygon they'll have to appear from your own table edge).

If/when they get into range, their weapons aren't amazing. Hardly poor either, but three Heavy Flamers won't turn a game unless they're turned on an expensive GEQ specialist unit; Stormtroopers or Aspect Warriors, perhaps. But most GEQ armies will have enough models to absorb the casualties if the Pyrovores turn their weapons on the rank-and-file, and MEQ's have a 3+ save to hide behind. And even if they do knock out a decent chunk of the opponents army, they won't survive to fire again.

In close combat, their stats suck. Power weapons or no, a single WS3, I1, S4 attack per model will do precisely squat. A full brood of three will score maybe one or two kills on the charge. Acid Blood could be useful, but an opponent has to fail an Initiative test; so against most things, it'll only trigger on a 4+ or, more likely, 5+. I guess it could be lethal against Orks, assuming it works the way people are saying it does - and it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense that way, so I'll be waiting for a FAQ.

So. You can take three Pyrovores, which will be lucky to get off a single round of shooting with their flamers. Or, for 10 points less, you can get three Biovores, which can happily tuck themselves away out of the enemy's LoS and drop large blast templates on the enemy every turn. Sure, they're at a point less strength, and are less accurate. But their missed shots might hit something else, and I'd be quite willing to bet they'll get more shots off per game than the Pyrovore will.

EDIT: Yea, the Hive Tyrant can only make a Troops choice outflank.

Vepr
02-01-2010, 21:15
Messed around a little with them today. I used three in a pod as a suicide unit to try and dislodge some boyz from an objective. I dropped in with a decent scatter roll and burned up about 13 boyz with the initial templates. One died to follow up shooting the other two accounted for 3 more dead boyz due to the blood (we settled on wounds causing death only for this test not all wounds) leaving 13 boyz and a wounded Nob. Only played three rounds but probably would have easily swept the objective with oncoming warriors. So they softened things up a good bit but I am not sure if it was worth roughly 200 points to do so.

If the rule on wounds is clarified for acid blood to be all wounds caused it probably would have caused a lot more wounds due to all the I tests leaving easily less than 10 boyz. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if the claw popped one but they did not live long enough for that to happen with the cascade of boyz attacks. In the end biovores seem much better for this.

polymphus
02-01-2010, 21:16
What Rav said. Also the model is uh...kinda phallic. The horns do a lot to counter that point but I was thinking of cutting them off because they look silly anyway...

Killgore
02-01-2010, 21:19
I'll be purchasing 1 or 2 in the future, going to need them for Citys of Death battles :P

itcamefromthedeep
02-01-2010, 21:46
If the rule on wounds is clarified for acid blood to be all wounds caused it probably would have caused a lot more wounds due to all the I tests leaving easily less than 10 boyz.
It looks like 1 Initiative test for one model for each unsaved Wound. That's 6 dead Orks at most. What you would expect to do damage to Boyz is the explosion when they die. If a Pyrovore falls, then on a 4+ it blows up, which works much like a vehicle. D6", S3 hits. THAT can do damage to Boyz.

Remember, though, that you're losing your Pyrovore to get those kills (and fail to finish the Boyz). That's a lot worse than, say, 20 Hormagaunts charging in with Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs and cleaning house on those Boyz.

If you can drop them down, have either the spore or some Hive Guard kill the transport, and then have the Pyrovores flame the contents then you could end up ahead of the game.


What Rav said. Also the model is uh...kinda phallic. The horns do a lot to counter that point but I was thinking of cutting them off because they look silly anyway...
It's compensating for not being a Hive Guard.

RampagingRavener
02-01-2010, 21:49
If a Pyrovore falls, then on a 4+ it blows up, which works much like a vehicle. D6", S3 hits.

Only if it suffers from Instant Death. If it's dragged down by Boyz before the Power Klaw swings, it won't detonate.

itcamefromthedeep
02-01-2010, 21:51
Only if it suffers from Instant Death. If it's dragged down by Boyz before the Power Klaw swings, it won't detonate.
I see. And here I thought there was a redeeming quality there. Shucks.

IJW
02-01-2010, 22:06
It looks like 1 Initiative test for one model for each unsaved Wound. That's 6 dead Orks at most.
I'm assuming that it will be unsaved wounds only, but even then it's going to be highly dependant on the wording - a charging unit of Slugga Boyz could just about cause enough unsaved wounds to kill most of themselves via I tests if there isn't wording to cap it at the number of wounds that the Pyrovore has. Unsaved wounds are still unsaved wounds, even if there are more than enough to kill the model.

IF it works that way, imagine the scene - 18 Slugga Boyz (to make the maths easier) are left in the unit after the templates. Da Boyz do about 1.5 wounds from shooting their pistols, then charge in.

72 attacks, 48 hit, 24 wound, 12 unsaved wounds, 8 Boyz drown in an acid bath.

Shoota Boys would just shoot them dead in the first place, though.

We'll have to wait and see... :(

clutien
02-01-2010, 23:41
from reading the translated from german codex that happened to appear in my inbox the other day, thje wording says unsaved wounds cause the I test, so in that example of the ork boys. thats 24 I tests the orks are ensuing and alot more are going to die in an acid bath.


:edit: i can put the quote up on here but i dont know if its against the rules or not so i am deferring from that path at the moment

freddieyu
03-01-2010, 00:10
I'm confused the pyrovore is apparently 50pts of, essentially, auto-GeQ kill with its flamer, it has decent power attacks for meq, it can come out of a trygon tunnel, apparently, and Acid Blood works in such a way that it is based on the number of wounds before saves are appplied.
I don't know about you but that sounds like an awesmoe elite unit killer right there, run in kill one or two with power weapons then take huge overkill wounds and watch those expensive elites fail toughness test after toughness test with no armor saves.
Don't nidz get rolled by dedicated CC, like orks or berzerkers etc.? If so then make them suffer for overkilling your pittily 50 point unit.

Please note everything I've stated as been quoted for truth by a few people who have "read" the codex.

Even with unsaved wounds it can be deadly...if the wording of the rule does not say it is capped by the number of actual wounds of the pyrovores, then imagine charging it at a unit of ork boyz...if they cause say 10 unsaved wounds, then that is 10 I tests.....so emerge from the tunnel, flame the unit, then assault it, kill boyz with acid blood, then maybe the klaw of the nob will make it explode...boom...

For it to be useful, the pyrovore that emerges from a tunnel should be able to assault that same turn, hopefully the trygon tunnel rule allows that...if so I can see this unit the equivalent of the IG's Marbo versus infantry, in a different way....

Vepr
03-01-2010, 00:29
Even with unsaved wounds it can be deadly...if the wording of the rule does not say it is capped by the number of actual wounds of the pyrovores, then imagine charging it at a unit of ork boyz...if they cause say 10 unsaved wounds, then that is 10 I tests.....so emerge from the tunnel, flame the unit, then assault it, kill boyz with acid blood, then maybe the klaw of the nob will make it explode...boom...

For it to be useful, the pyrovore that emerges from a tunnel should be able to assault that same turn, hopefully the trygon tunnel rule allows that...if so I can see this unit the equivalent of the IG's Marbo versus infantry, in a different way....

Just like the pod you cannot assault after emerging from the tunnel I believe.

RampagingRavener
03-01-2010, 01:03
Just like the pod you cannot assault after emerging from the tunnel I believe.

Correct. You place the unit anywhere within 6" of the tunnel entrance, then may not move or assault. You can still shoot however. Even if the Bio-acid Biomorph is so easily triggered, an opponent who knows what they can do will just shoot them down ASAP. Which means that the Pyrovore might be useful for one game against an Ork player, if you don't tell him what they do.

Still not convinced they're worth using. And remember; as I mentioned earlier, unless I'm missing something, you can't specify a unit is entering via a tunnel network in the same way you specify a unit is Deep Striking or Outflanking. If the Pyrovore brood arrives before the Trygon does, then it'll be forced to walk on from your own table edge, and thus is almost guaranteed to never get within flamer-range.

Vaktathi
03-01-2010, 01:31
Not gonna lie, I really pulled a :wtf: when I saw the Pyrovore's actual stats and cost. I was thinking it was either going to be a hellhound equivalent or a beastly CC flamer monster, and it's really neither, in a section full of amazing units like Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and Ymgarl Genestealers

itcamefromthedeep
03-01-2010, 02:05
I hear ya'.

Hell, I was thinking it was tank-hunting Biovore with a flamer on the front for fun.

RampagingRavener
03-01-2010, 02:09
If they buffed the Toughness to five, and changed the Acid Maw ability from ignore-saves-in-CC to a st3 ap3 flamer template that it could use instead the Heavy Flamer equivalent, then I could see them being used. It would, hopefully, give them enough resilience to get to their target, then a choice of weapons to deal with whatever they're up against. Even without a hellhound-like ability to fire the template at range, they might start to appear in people's lists - though considering they'd still be competing with Hive Guard and Zoanthropes, they'd probably still get left behind.

EDIT: Maybe if they replaced the Heavy Flamer attack with, say, a 24", st6, small blast, melta shot. Turning them into a short range assault creature that could take on either light tanks or heavy infantry with reasonable success, leaving heavy tanks to Zoanthropes and Hive Guard, and infantry swarms to Biovores.

itcamefromthedeep
03-01-2010, 02:41
EDIT: Maybe if they replaced the Heavy Flamer attack with, say, a 24", st6, small blast, melta shot. Turning them into a short range assault creature that could take on either light tanks or heavy infantry with reasonable success, leaving heavy tanks to Zoanthropes and Hive Guard, and infantry swarms to Biovores.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought it would be.

They could have just given it the Hellhound-like gun that the Tyrannofex comes with. That could have worked too.

Nezalhualixtlan
03-01-2010, 02:47
Really cool looking new model. Not much there in terms of rules. I can't really see myself fielding them because of that, considering they're competing with the new Hive Guard which look awesome, and Zoanthropes, which I'll probably field a Mycetic Spore deployed unit of to deal with heavy armor. Maybe one day down the line I'll buy a few just for the model and to have a complete collection, but I very much doubt I will be using them if I'm not making a tailored list where they'll have a chance to perform, unless they are substantially different from the rumors.

MicroElite
03-01-2010, 04:56
As I see it a Pyrovore is a glorified sporemine. This can be a very good thing depending on how it's used. If the Tyranid drop pod works anything like a space marines then you can drop almost anywhere without worry. The Pyrovore if parked close enough to the enemy will make them think twice to shoot or assault them.

You realize how hard it is to take out a few dozen entrenched IG that have a 3+ or 2+ cover save that are holding objectives. It's nice to have a unit that can deal with cover saves. It's true that there are always better units to take instead of the Pyrovore, but you got to consider the situation. All Tyranids are designed to die ether by the enemy or in a digestion pool.

Bunnahabhain
03-01-2010, 07:59
You realize how hard it is to take out a few dozen entrenched IG that have a 3+ or 2+ cover save that are holding objectives. It's nice to have a unit that can deal with cover saves.

As a guard player, I am painfully aware of how easy it is to take out a few dozen Guardsmen in good cover. Any army with close combat ability can do so very easily.

Nids charge, guardsmen get a few attacks in( 1 attack each, 4+ to hit, 4/5+ to wound, and then save, about 1 casualty per squad vs little nids.), then nids swing, and cut the guardsmen to shreds. Guardsmen probably either wiped out, or running, unless they're the 30 men with commisar stubborn tarpit unit, which costs ~200pts.

freddieyu
03-01-2010, 08:38
Just like the pod you cannot assault after emerging from the tunnel I believe.

Ah that severely reduces it's usefulness...it becomes a unit for a tailored list then....

Proto11
03-01-2010, 08:57
The rules for the pyrovore were designed to throw people off the scent of codex creep, and that GW does not give beneficial rules for new models which they are trying to sell.

Negafex
03-01-2010, 10:53
ell, if the various rumors (and translated german codecies) are accurate, then i'd have to wager pyrovores are definitely on the bottom rung as far as useful units. there are a myriad of reasons, but mostly it boils down to 2 things.

first is slot competition. zoanthropes and lictors are much better than their previous incarnations, being quite deadly at reasonable point costs. the new hive guard have some of the most powerful and versitile guns in the codex, getting not only very high str, but also a good number of shots, and add in the survivability of a tyrant guard makes for a very attractive unit. the new ymgarl stealers also look to be a very dangerous and tricky unit. dispite lacking the broodlord option of regular stealers, they gain a unique deployment method thats just mean.

second is point cost. when compared to other units in the codex, they really do fall short. being only a few points less than a hive guard, the hive guard is an infinitely more appealing unit, boasting far better survivability and probably better cc potential, if only for the fact that they can survive more than one round of combat. and for the price of a full unit of 3, you could get several different types of monstrous creatures who would have far more destructive capability (give or take 15 points or so difference between the two)

all things considered, i think people will use the unit for its model, but it wont make it to competitive play. it looks quite sub-par (at least on paper).

ps: another problem is the huge base size makes it very hard to screen with terrain, little guys, or even some tougher medium sized guys.

philbrad2
03-01-2010, 11:03
Bad? Thought these guys were in there to give the advancing hordes some close in template support. Us Nid players have been so used to ranged fire picking off Gaunt Broods with little chance to fire back only with Warrior and above sized stuff, now we have the Pyrovore and Hive Guard that can provide mobile fire support for these broods- is this so bad?

PhilB
:chrome:

Tymell
03-01-2010, 11:03
I don't have an actual answer to the question, and maybe they are bad or maybe they're not. I just find it very entertaining that the codex technically hasn't even been released yet and already we've got a thread asking why a new unit is so bad :p

sayles78
03-01-2010, 11:28
I don't have an actual answer to the question, and maybe they are bad or maybe they're not. I just find it very entertaining that the codex technically hasn't even been released yet and already we've got a thread asking why a new unit is so bad :p

But... we've all the seen the (rumoured) rules. Now, maybe the rumours are slightly off, but there is many people in this thread saying "if the rumours are true, then..." and "unless we're missing something...". So, nobody is claiming this is a difinitive review on the Pyrovore's capability, it is a discussion of it's effectiveness based on information to hand - which happens to make it look quite pathetic. I'm sure everyone would be more than happy to be proved 100% wrong :)

Anyhow, I hope you stay entertained just reading these threads... you could try getting involved in the discussions and giving your views...

itcamefromthedeep
03-01-2010, 12:13
Bad? Thought these guys were in there to give the advancing hordes some close in template support. Us Nid players have been so used to ranged fire picking off Gaunt Broods with little chance to fire back only with Warrior and above sized stuff, now we have the Pyrovore and Hive Guard that can provide mobile fire support for these broods- is this so bad?
They may be intended for that role, but they're not very good at it. Their fragility and penchant for blowing up makes them a bad choice for hanging out with Gaunts and Warriors on the way across the field. If you expect to use their heavy flamer, you'll want a direct delivery system.

BramGaunt
03-01-2010, 13:13
The Pyrovore is not bad, it just stinks compared to the other amazing Elites you have.

Zoanthropes (almost a must have), Venomthropes, Hive Guards, Death Leaper. I can see myself fielding a brood of them with Planetstrike. Or... just 3 x 3 Zoans, 2 x 3 Hive Guards and a Death Leaper. Yeah, I'd stick to that one.

Tymell
03-01-2010, 13:25
But... we've all the seen the (rumoured) rules. Now, maybe the rumours are slightly off, but there is many people in this thread saying "if the rumours are true, then..." and "unless we're missing something...". So, nobody is claiming this is a difinitive review on the Pyrovore's capability, it is a discussion of it's effectiveness based on information to hand - which happens to make it look quite pathetic. I'm sure everyone would be more than happy to be proved 100% wrong :)

Anyhow, I hope you stay entertained just reading these threads... you could try getting involved in the discussions and giving your views...

Yes, you have seen the rules. But even ignoring the fact that they are rumoured rules, they're still only down on paper (or digitally, in this case). It's one thing to look at something down on paper, isolated from any context. It's another entirely to actually play with/against it time and again, noting it's strengths and weaknesses and how it fits in as a whole, and so on.

You can't look at some stats and rules and really come to a clear conclusion about it, but a lot have done so. The thread shows how many have already made their minds up about the pyrovore prematurely, pouncing on it the second the (rumoured) rules are out and instantly coming to a firm conclusion about how good/bad it is. It entertains me because it's bordering on self-parody, the way forumites will see rules and right away you'll get threads springing up about how bad/good/useless/over-powered something is :p

I can't give a view for precisely the reason outlined above: I haven't used/fought against them yet.

Souleater
03-01-2010, 13:53
Bad? Thought these guys were in there to give the advancing hordes some close in template support.

Deathspitter Warriors and Strangler Fexes were my choice for moving support fire, with Dakka Warriors and Tyrants for closer non-scattering support.

By the time the pyrovore is within template range...well the gaunts would probably have got to the target one or two turns before that.

If Zoanthropes hand't been moved to Elites then Pyrovores might sound a bit more attractive.

Really eager to get hold of dex and see how all this stuff can be put together!

RampagingRavener
03-01-2010, 16:53
The Pyrovore is not bad, it just stinks compared to the other amazing Elites you have.

No, I'm pretty sure it's terrible. The Pyrovore isn't a mediocre unit surrounded by excellent ones; it's an abysmal unit surrounded by a few excellent ones (Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, potentially Ymgarl stealers) and some mediocre ones (Lictors and the two special characters).

sayles78
03-01-2010, 17:22
Yes, you have seen the rules. But even ignoring the fact that they are rumoured rules, they're still only down on paper (or digitally, in this case). It's one thing to look at something down on paper, isolated from any context. It's another entirely to actually play with/against it time and again, noting it's strengths and weaknesses and how it fits in as a whole, and so on.

You can't look at some stats and rules and really come to a clear conclusion about it, but a lot have done so. The thread shows how many have already made their minds up about the pyrovore prematurely, pouncing on it the second the (rumoured) rules are out and instantly coming to a firm conclusion about how good/bad it is. It entertains me because it's bordering on self-parody, the way forumites will see rules and right away you'll get threads springing up about how bad/good/useless/over-powered something is :p

I can't give a view for precisely the reason outlined above: I haven't used/fought against them yet.

What a ridiculous notion.

Gary Lineker: "So Allan Hansen, as we're getting ready to start the new season, who's your pick to be crowned Premiership Champions this year?"

Allan Hansen: "Sorry Gary, I cant really answer that until I know for sure which team will win the Premiership. Just taking an educated guess by looking at the teams on paper, and using my extensive knowledgae of the game just wouldn't be right."

Vepr
03-01-2010, 17:40
I have played around with them some in some small battles trying to burn orks off objectives etc. If they dropped some points off them they would not be half bad as a suicide unit. Maybe make them 35 points each? Or if they had given their template some range like a hellhound at their current cost maybe? As they stand now they are competing with way more effective units at nearly the same cost for a very niche roll they are not all that great at.

Depending on what unit is in cover a podded fex with spores for about the same cost would probably be more effective than the pyrovores because he is likely to be around for more than one turn.

Emperador Carlos
03-01-2010, 19:25
I think they'll do fine...

IMHO, they were left out of the WD batrep for a reason. They've got some hidden rule we don't know about yet...

Dreachon
03-01-2010, 19:52
Doubtfull as people have seen the codex and have not reported any such rule.

Souleater
03-01-2010, 19:58
I would have thought putting them in WD to show off their kick-ass rules would have sold more of them....

I'm definately going to get Hiveguard, Trygon, Gargoyles and a Venomthrope but I am going to hold off on Pyrovores until I can proxy them. The others are nice enough models that I would want to own them regardless of rules. While I initially loved the Pyrovore model I've cooled to it.

Tymell
03-01-2010, 20:09
What a ridiculous notion.

Gary Lineker: "So Allan Hansen, as we're getting ready to start the new season, who's your pick to be crowned Premiership Champions this year?"

Allan Hansen: "Sorry Gary, I cant really answer that until I know for sure which team will win the Premiership. Just taking an educated guess by looking at the teams on paper, and using my extensive knowledgae of the game just wouldn't be right."

According to your logic: "This player has a cardio-rate of X and can kick a ball in the air Y number of times without dropping it, and he has Z kicking power. I'll take him! What? No, I haven't ever seen him play, or watched any clips of his game, or considered how he might fit in with the rest of my team. I just read these stats, that's enough for me, I can now safely say he's amazing!"

As I say, you can come up with some idea of a unit based purely on stats and rules, but you'll never accurately be able to say how good/bad it is until you've seen it in the game. Some have probably done such (see Vepr above), but I've no doubt most are jumping to conclusions prematurely (see thread title).

Bunnahabhain
03-01-2010, 20:16
My theory is very simple. The author is living up to his name

Crud-d-ace

His codices contain utter crud, lots of really ace units, and a few bits of OK filler to join it all together. Explains the Guard codex perfectly, and seems to fit the nid one...

itcamefromthedeep
03-01-2010, 20:41
My theory is very simple. The author is living up to his name
:eyebrows: Classy.

The complaint you mentioned there describes every codex ever written. They have some good, some bad, and some stuff in between. It seems you think that this codex is worse than most for such inequities. I would agree. I have even stooped so low as to compare the writing of this codex to the work of a "glue-sniffing child" for its failures. I would compare it to a badly-executed fandex, because most fans can tell when one option is strictly and unequivocally superior to the one below it.

I would not, however, make a play on the author's name. That's low.

Vepr
03-01-2010, 20:41
My theory is very simple. The author is living up to his name

Crud-d-ace

His codices contain utter crud, lots of really ace units, and a few bits of OK filler to join it all together. Explains the Guard codex perfectly, and seems to fit the nid one...

I am trying to withhold judgment until I see the final product but looking at the leak it was fairly easy to see the no brainer units, the mediocre but usable units and then the chaff.

With the Tervigon and Hive Guard it is hard to find a reason not to take them.

I also still get the uncomfortable feeling we are looking at xeno-guard with some SM flavor.

Bunnahabhain
03-01-2010, 21:00
:eyebrows: Classy.

The complaint you mentioned there describes every codex ever written. They have some good, some bad, and some stuff in between.
I'd argue the Ork codex doesn't really fit that pattern. Much good, some average, and no actual bad....



It seems you think that this codex is worse than most for such inequities. I would agree. I have even stooped so low as to compare the writing of this codex to the work of a "glue-sniffing child" for its failures. I would compare it to a badly-executed fandex, because most fans can tell when one option is strictly and unequivocally superior to the one below it.

I would not, however, make a play on the author's name. That's low.

True. Just had a fun time trying and failing to get the car out of an iced up sloping road...When I get annoyed, my humour tends to drop several grades. At least it didn't get all the way to sarcasm.

sayles78
04-01-2010, 00:16
You didn't really think that comparison through very hard, did you?

According to your logic: "This player has a cardio-rate of X and can kick a ball in the air Y number of times without dropping it, and he has Z kicking power. I'll take him! What? No, I haven't ever seen him play, or watched any clips of his game, or considered how he might fit in with the rest of my team. I just read these stats, that's enough for me, I can now safely say he's amazing!"

As I say, you can come up with some idea of a unit based purely on stats and rules, but you'll never accurately be able to say how good/bad it is until you've seen it in the game. Some have probably done such (see Vepr above), but I've no doubt most are jumping to conclusions prematurely (see thread title).

Yeah, maybe a bit too theatrical, but the point is - you can form an opinion based on stats of a unit or by looking a football team sheet. You really can. That opinion may turn out to be wrong, but it can be formed AND discussed. Also, opinions may differ between different people - but again, they CAN be discussed.

Edit: Just had another good look at the Pyrovore model on GW. I think that model is awesome. I hope I am wrong about it, I really do - cos that baby rocks.

freddieyu
04-01-2010, 01:56
My theory is very simple. The author is living up to his name

Crud-d-ace

His codices contain utter crud, lots of really ace units, and a few bits of OK filler to join it all together. Explains the Guard codex perfectly, and seems to fit the nid one...

That's not true....all the entries in the IG dex have their uses, the only poor config I see is a valk with a lascannon and hellstrike missiles, but even then that's not useless..

And there are players who swear by the punisher, vanquisher, ogryns, rough riders, and sentinels....meaning these have been used successfully....

Tymell
04-01-2010, 01:59
Yeah, maybe a bit too theatrical, but the point is - you can form an opinion based on stats of a unit or by looking a football team sheet. You really can. That opinion may turn out to be wrong, but it can be formed AND discussed. Also, opinions may differ between different people - but again, they CAN be discussed.

Edit: Just had another good look at the Pyrovore model on GW. I think that model is awesome. I hope I am wrong about it, I really do - cos that baby rocks.

Absolutely, and I wouldn't dispute that. My only point is that many of the opinions being formed are a bit too definite/firm for something that most won't have ever played with/against yet. I don't mean to suggest people can't have an opinion on what has been seen so far, and apologies if that's how it appears, but I feel that without using it/playing against it you can only ever really get a half-complete picture of what a unit will be like.

The Custodian
04-01-2010, 02:01
So far after looking at the leaked dex (German one, which I dont understand! *goes looking for an english one*) it seems the pyrovore is just to weak to fullfill its job as a flamer... Now what I think is if it at least had the ability to fire like a hellhound (like the T-Fex) then maybe I would warm to it a tad... But I think ill be changing the one I bought into a biovore... SO much nicer...

RampagingRavener
04-01-2010, 02:03
And there are players who swear by the punisher, vanquisher, ogryns, rough riders, and sentinels....meaning these have been used successfully....

While I agree with you that the Imperial Guard codex is nowhere near as bad as he makes out, most of the units in it have some use and few are utterly terrible, saying "some people swear by them so they're good" doesn't prove anything. It's perfectly possible it's a case of the opponent simply being terrible. Hell, for years I swore by Assault Carnifexes and Lictors, despite the fact that they are both hugely substandard units, simply because my opponents weren't the best and didn't know how to combat them.

I have no doubt that there are people who swear by Chaos Spawn, Vespid, Mandrakes, and in a few months time, there will be people who swear by Pyrovores. But taken to even a semi-competitive environment, those units will be more of a hindrance than help.

freddieyu
04-01-2010, 02:22
While I agree with you that the Imperial Guard codex is nowhere near as bad as he makes out, most of the units in it have some use and few are utterly terrible, saying "some people swear by them so they're good" doesn't prove anything. It's perfectly possible it's a case of the opponent simply being terrible. Hell, for years I swore by Assault Carnifexes and Lictors, despite the fact that they are both hugely substandard units, simply because my opponents weren't the best and didn't know how to combat them.

I have no doubt that there are people who swear by Chaos Spawn, Vespid, Mandrakes, and in a few months time, there will be people who swear by Pyrovores. But taken to even a semi-competitive environment, those units will be more of a hindrance than help.

The point is that the units have uses, and remember the majority of 40k games are not in tourneys, but are fun games....saying they are utterly useless implies just that, that they do NOTHING of value, which is not the case with people who know how to work within the limitations of the model (I'm speaking of the IG units here, as that is my main army)...

I reserve judgement when I see the new nid codex comes out, and I will get to play against nids a lot since there are at least 6 nid players that I know off in our club (including my brother)....the nice thing is that almost all have nidzilla lists, but are not bitching about the new dex, but looking forward to it and the possibilities it brings...

Lord Cook
04-01-2010, 02:52
The point is that the units have uses, and remember the majority of 40k games are not in tourneys, but are fun games....saying they are utterly useless implies just that, that they do NOTHING of value, which is not the case with people who know how to work within the limitations of the model (I'm speaking of the IG units here, as that is my main army)...

They are useless in a competitive sense. And if someone has no interest in competitiveness, why are they discussing it on a section of the forum intended for serious game play debate? 'Working within the limitations of the model' is a polite way of saying the unit is very poor but I have fun using it anyway. Fair enough, but that doesn't make it a worthwhile unit for the rest of us.

Tymell
04-01-2010, 02:58
They are useless in a competitive sense. And if someone has no interest in competitiveness, why are they discussing it on a section of the forum intended for serious game play debate? 'Working within the limitations of the model' is a polite way of saying the unit is very poor but I have fun using it anyway. Fair enough, but that doesn't make it a worthwhile unit for the rest of us.

I do agree that something of interest to some less concerned with competitive play won't be for those who are concerned with it, but I would like to point out this isn't only a section intended for serious game play debate. It's just a 40K general forum. So it's perfectly open to all kinds of players/styles.

freddieyu
04-01-2010, 03:04
They are useless in a competitive sense. And if someone has no interest in competitiveness, why are they discussing it on a section of the forum intended for serious game play debate? 'Working within the limitations of the model' is a polite way of saying the unit is very poor but I have fun using it anyway. Fair enough, but that doesn't make it a worthwhile unit for the rest of us.

Rough riders are useless in a competitive environment? I say not...ditto for scout sentinels and ogryns....

The punisher I believe has its uses, especially now with the incoming nid dex....

Anyway I digress, as those don't belong to this thread....back to the topic on the pyrovore and nids, it would have been nice if it could assault out of the trygon hole, but seeing that it cannot, it just becomes a fire magnet.....especially for an army like mine with an infantry firebase....sad really, since it is a nice model...

Lord Cook
04-01-2010, 03:12
It's just a 40K general forum.

True, but my point was that if you just take a unit because you think it's cool, then by definition you can't debate or discuss it, because it's just a subjective opinion. It's like having a forum to discuss which is the best colour, or who has the best name. Acknowledging that we each have different opinions on things like that is pretty self-evident, and doesn't need further discussion. If all you have is a subjective opinion, then enter, share your opinion once and leave. Because what else can you do?

If we're actually talking about something and how it might work in the game, that's objective. We all play with (pretty much) the same rules so we can talk about what is good and what is bad, because we can provide evidence and arguments towards something being worthwhile or not. This allows discussion and debate. If you make an argument that consists of more than just "I take it because I like it" then by definition you're discussing competitiveness, and should be prepared to accept counter arguments along the line of "Unit x is worthless because..."


Rough riders are useless in a competitive environment? I say not...ditto for scout sentinels and ogryns....
The punisher I believe has its uses, especially now with the incoming nid dex....

I'm not referring to specific units, rather to the concept of a unit being rubbish. And a unit can "have uses" and still be completely useless in a competitive sense. The Punisher is an excellent example.

freddieyu
04-01-2010, 03:19
[/QUOTE]I'm not referring to specific units, rather to the concept of a unit being rubbish. And a unit can "have uses" and still be completely useless in a competitive sense. The Punisher is an excellent example.[/QUOTE]

Point taken Lord Cook....the usefullness of units do change depending on the current metagames, so what may be not be considered "points effective" before may be so as new codexes are released (case in point, because of the new nid dex I bet we shall be seeing more plasma guns and possibly missile launchers)...so at least the particular dex has these options available as the need arises..

Marrak
04-01-2010, 04:09
Here's my take on the pyrovore: it's got mediocre stats overall and terrible stats for assault, while it has a weapon that forces it to close the distance with the enemy. It's one major defense is if it gets insta-gibbed, it might (key word: Might) explode and take a couple guys with him.

Now, his redeeming qualities? He's able to be taken in a brood of up to 3, and will do wonders for providing substantial cover to our MCs; the model is on a 60mm base so the thing's huge. In a drop pod, dropping three of these to template something to death will be quite nasty. Kind of like Vespid. For one round, they can be amazing.

The following round not so much...

Now, I'm actually a pretty big fan of the new codex and I'm looking forward to messing around to determine a new playstyle that'll be fun and competitive for me, but this guy fills a niche that wasn't needed/wanted/looked for. At the same time as has been said, he's got some fantastic competition in that slot for roughly the same points and deployment flexibility.

I'll give the pyrovore props for being an interesting idea but it's not something that's gonna pan out for me, or others I imagine. Frankly I think he was given rules to make an alternative sculpt of the biovore without having to redo the model again in such a short period (it'd be like 3 times over 2 editions, although I wish the biovore matched the new artwork). Honestly? I'd have rather seen a spore pod model.

naloth
04-01-2010, 04:41
Actually when I saw the model I was hoping that he would be a mid-range melta attack like a "Assault 1 AP1 Melta" perhaps with a template. After all, Elites seems to be where all the (ranged) armor busting power is.

sayles78
04-01-2010, 08:50
Absolutely, and I wouldn't dispute that. My only point is that many of the opinions being formed are a bit too definite/firm for something that most won't have ever played with/against yet. I don't mean to suggest people can't have an opinion on what has been seen so far, and apologies if that's how it appears, but I feel that without using it/playing against it you can only ever really get a half-complete picture of what a unit will be like.

Point taken sir. However, my opinion is certainly not definate - just an early educated opinion.

Anyways, good debate/arguement without (personal) insults... Thats what forums are for I guess!

Sayles

IJW
04-01-2010, 10:04
a section of the forum intended for serious game play debate?
If this was the tactics forum or army list forum instead of the 'everything that's even vaguely related to 40k' forum, that might have gone down better... ;)