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LKHERO
04-01-2010, 06:49
+++++++INCOMING BIG POST+++++++

I've been a long time Warhammer player and I mained as High Elves since 6th Ed. I also own Dwarves and have played them for several years.

Right now, I'm feeling like I should move onto my next Fantasy army. More specifically, an evil army this time.

The only problem is.. I have trouble deciding whether or not I should go for either Vampire Counts or Dark Elves. For one, let me tell you what I have planned for the two armies if I am to buy a new army. My Dark Elf army would consist of the following: Lord on Dragon, 15 Dark Riders, Block of Black Guard, 10 Shades, 5 Cold One Knights, 2 Hydras.

I don't feel like buying the Black Guard, so I will use my Phoenix Guard to represent them (I have 20 easy). The Lord on the Dragon will be converted from the Dragon Box I already own and pieces from the CoKs. Dark Riders will be 2 boxes of WE Glade Riders plus some parts from DE Warriors and Corsairs. The Shades will be an easy conversion from Corsairs and left over Glade Rider parts. And of course, 2 metal Hydras which I would have to buy.

Money wise, I only nee to buy the Dark Elf Battalion Box, 2 boxes of Glade Riders and 2 Hydras. VERY affordable.

For my Vampire Counts list, I'm using a mounted Vampire, 2 foot Vampires and a Wight King. I want to have the option to use Wight Knights, so I would have to buy a Empire Knight box + use skeleton warrior pieces. I also need 2 Corpse Carts and a buttload of Ghouls. My friend told me I can just glue Ghoul pieces on a base and call it a Ghoul.. so a box of 10 can actually make 20. I essentially need ~60 ghouls, 2 Corpse Carts, a box of Empire Knights, 2 Grave Guard boxes, and I guess I'll just proxy some Cairn Wraiths.. even though I guess I can sell out 45 bucks for 5 (sadface).

This means I have to buy the Battalion Box, a box of Empire Knights, 2 boxes of Grave Guard, a box of Ghouls and 5 Cairn Wraiths.

Money wise, I think DE > VE.

Now let's talk about army power, capability, the skill required to use them, and of course, the cool factor. I'll hit up with Pros and Cons for this one. You guys can either agree or disagree but in the end, it's just my honest opinion:

Dark Elves:
+ Cheaper to build.
+ Elves, slender, elegant.
+ Cool models, monsters are fun.
+ Strong magic items, underpriced in most areas, very competitive.
+ Can build either magic heavy, combat heavy, shooty or monsters. Very flexible and strong book with no dominate build.
+ Assassins are really cool.
- They're incredibly emo with dark hair, pale skin and make-up.
- They might be viewed as cheesy; especially with what I plan on building.
- They're incredibly well rounded for almost no cost. Almost everything is underpriced.

Vampires:
+ Their Lords and Heroes aren't push overs.
+ Special rules for Undead.
+ Fun models with a lot of conversion opportunities.
+ No list is the same from what I've seen. Compared to what I've seen on Durchii.net.. where I see 1-2 different changes from 10 different lists.
+ Strong, competitive army with a lot of options.
+ I get a Vampire Lord with Red Fury. I find that really cool.
- They're more expensive to build.
- I absolutely hate Twilight.
- Maybe they'll be viewed as overpowered.

In short, I'm quite torn. Both armies have their pluses and minuses and there's a lot on my mind. But the thing about me is.. I can't build soft lists. That's just not how my competitive RTS mind works. Every army I ever looked at (and I own all the books), I've first looked at how "cool" they are, then I looked at each unit and cost and worked the math out in my head. I ignore the weak, cost ineffective units and lean towards what works, what's proven in the field and what's cost effective and competitive. For that, I'll also provide the two army lists below.


2250
Dark Elves

LORD:
Dreadlord (Black Dragon, CD, AoD, PoK, RxB) = 555
Master (BSB, Knight, ES, Ring of Darkness) = 179
Sorceress (2x Scrolls) = 150

CORE:
5x Dark Riders (RxB) = 110
5x Dark Riders (RxB) = 110
5x Dark Riders (RxB) = 110

SPECIAL:
20x Black Guard (FC, ASF, RoH) = 355
10x Shades (GW) = 180
+ Assassin (EHW, RoK, Manbane) = 151

RARE:
2x War Hydra = 350

---

2248
Vampire Counts

LORD:
Vampire Lord (Lv.3, Red Fury Knight, Full Kit) = 455
Vampire (Dark Acolyte, 2x Scrolls) = 180
Vampire (Dark Acolyte, Helm of Commandment) = 160
Wight King (BSB, Mounted, Drakenhof) = 245

CORE:
20x Ghouls (Ghast) = 168
20x Ghouls (Ghast) = 168
10x Ghouls (Ghast) = 88
Corpse Cart (Balefire) = 100
Corpse Cart (Balefire) = 100

SPECIAL:
18x Grave Guard (FC, GW, Banner of the Barrows) = 309

RARE:
5x Cairn Wraiths (Banshee) = 275

For the lack of a better word, I can't play soft even if I tried.

I'm just asking you guys.. from what I've told you thus far.. which army should I go for. Never before have I been torn like this.. I'm just asking you guys to sway my decision one way or the other.

Seville
04-01-2010, 07:04
Now let's talk about army power, capability,

Through the roof.


the skill required to use them,

Basically none.


and of course, the cool factor

Definitely there for both armies.

Sounds like you're hell bent on being a power gamer, which is fine. I don't necessarily say that pejoratively. You've come to the right armies, in that regard.

I dunno. Seems to me that DE are a more mobile, dynamic army, particularly with the list you intend to build, while VC are sort of static and effectively one-dimensional.

I'm getting the feeling you are leaning towards DE, so, go for DE.

ChaosVC
04-01-2010, 09:19
I think you should collect both, they are both good armies to play with.

The Red Scourge
04-01-2010, 17:30
And go get a 'thirster, some horrors, hounds and flamers while you're at it :D

LKHERO
04-01-2010, 17:31
And go get a 'thirster, some horrors, hounds and flamers while you're at it :D

Been there, done that.

The Red Scourge
04-01-2010, 17:35
The funny thing is that you list variation for both armies, but want to build some of the most focussed and repetitive list out there ;)

Lordsaradain
04-01-2010, 19:49
For cairn wraiths, I suggest empire flagellants, with skeleton heads.
http://img134.imageshack.us/i/cimg0018nc2.jpg/
They look much better painted but dont have pics atm.

tmarichards
04-01-2010, 22:57
DEs ftw :)

musicians on the dark riders though if you can find the 21pts required.

ChaosVC
05-01-2010, 01:56
Which ever that is easier for you to win your games?

Null_Sheen
05-01-2010, 02:40
LOL, how come i don't see threads "Ogre Kingdoms or Beasts of Chaos?"

I wonder why people always choose 2 of the 3 strongest army books when choosing their next army

Agoz
05-01-2010, 04:40
LOL, how come i don't see threads "Ogre Kingdoms or Beasts of Chaos?"

I wonder why people always choose 2 of the 3 strongest army books when choosing their next army

I would assume because they don't want to suck. :)
Those armies are pure self-flagellation.

fubukii
05-01-2010, 04:44
because everyone is waiting for BOC in March/april like smart people :D

Darkspear
05-01-2010, 05:19
I noticed that you already own High Elves. Since this is the case, I recommend you to do vampire counts for a totally different experience.

Seville
05-01-2010, 05:29
LOL, how come i don't see threads "Ogre Kingdoms or Beasts of Chaos?"

I wonder why people always choose 2 of the 3 strongest army books when choosing their next army

Because I think this forum tends to attract that type.

I don't think it's indicative of the gaming community at large.

LKHERO
05-01-2010, 07:18
Because I think this forum tends to attract that type.

I don't think it's indicative of the gaming community at large.

Not really.. that's just me. As a competitive player, sure I don't want a army that sucks, but at the same time, I want a army that's uniquely different than the ones I current own.

VC it is!

Jind_Singh
05-01-2010, 08:02
I would assume because they don't want to suck. :)
Those armies are pure self-flagellation.

what?! My Ogres kick ass - against a certain type of build they suffer but overall very solid perfomances. The army is not 'self-flagellation' but a chance to hone my warhammer skills and give people what for.

after collecting the Deamons (eventually got them to 10,000 pts), I stepped down to Empire. However they started rocking so stepped down to Orcs. While they were not rocking as hard as the Empire they were causing & wreaking havoc - to the point were I won the 5000pt Iron Man tournment with them, so have taken another step down to Ogres.

i'm hardly self-flagellating when I get to buy all six man eater models - those things are pure sexy - and rock in the game too.

Agoz
05-01-2010, 17:14
what?! My Ogres kick ass - against a certain type of build they suffer but overall very solid perfomances. The army is not 'self-flagellation' but a chance to hone my warhammer skills and give people what for.

after collecting the Deamons (eventually got them to 10,000 pts), I stepped down to Empire. However they started rocking so stepped down to Orcs. While they were not rocking as hard as the Empire they were causing & wreaking havoc - to the point were I won the 5000pt Iron Man tournment with them, so have taken another step down to Ogres.

i'm hardly self-flagellating when I get to buy all six man eater models - those things are pure sexy - and rock in the game too.

Exactly, you got tired of winning with those armies and went to a weaker army, I did the same thing, to punish myself for winning, in other words, self-flagellation. Don't get me wrong, ogres are really fun, but they do lose more than they win against good opponents.

The Red Scourge
05-01-2010, 17:33
Seeking a challenge/mastery of a new playstyle is just fun.

Choosing an army as a punishment is... just dumb :p

LKHERO
05-01-2010, 18:33
Exactly, you got tired of winning with those armies and went to a weaker army, I did the same thing, to punish myself for winning, in other words, self-flagellation. Don't get me wrong, ogres are really fun, but they do lose more than they win against good opponents.

Well I'm going from HE to VC as my 2nd army.. it's not like HE is a bad army.. VC is just completely different.

Jind_Singh
05-01-2010, 18:47
Exactly, you got tired of winning with those armies and went to a weaker army, I did the same thing, to punish myself for winning, in other words, self-flagellation. Don't get me wrong, ogres are really fun, but they do lose more than they win against good opponents.

Was it really winning with the DoC? Imagine you and your 5 mates decide to go to a carpark every weekend for a race, they pull up in their civics, you bring out your mustang - now are you really the better racer or you got the better car? For me I want to see how good a driver I am, not how fast I can pump the gas pedal!

Agoz
05-01-2010, 19:25
I didn't start playing ogres to punish myself, I started playing them because I got 2000pts for around 190$ from a friend. It just seems that when I hit a winning streak, I always pull out the ogres to bring myself back down to earth. Anyway, I believe we are getting off topic. In my opinion, play dark elves, they are more interesting to fight, the vampire counts player around here seems to favor a static deathstar list, which is quite dull in my opinion. The dark elf player also does a deathstar list, but at least its possible to hurt them.