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Ozeor
04-01-2010, 21:18
Was wondering if anyone knew how to get in contact with Robin Cruddace, I would really like to send him a email and let him know about the stuff I dont like about the new nid codex. I don't wanna bitch or moan, just offer some advice. I am really not happy with the points cost on somethings and wanna know what he was thinking when he did the rules for the pyrovore, I would just like some justification for what was done. There is some amazing units in there and would be great to field, but at 150pts+ for good stuff, that seems very silly. I love the deathleaper rules but for his points I would field 3 lictors. The winged tyrant cost is just plain retarted and so is the tyrannofex, the tyrannofex I might pay if he had BS4.

SPYDER68
04-01-2010, 21:20
I doubt he would respond or read emails that are critisizm about his book.

Its all openion on the points/effectivness of things.

Ozeor
04-01-2010, 21:24
So if I disagree with something he did he know's far more then I and is superior so I am wrong?

I sincerly hope they do not have that kind of ego. I planned on explaining my point of view and not bash him at all, was just wondering whats up. Besides it's not like he can change it now can he?

Vepr
04-01-2010, 21:27
If you are going off the pdf leak I would wait until you have the full dex in hand. If you actually have a copy then go for it. It appears from the leak that there are some definite head scratchers in the new dex but I am withholding the pitchforks and torches until we know for sure. ;) :p

darker4308
04-01-2010, 21:31
It's not a "pdf leak" is it? Arn't the books in some hobby stores ?

Mannimarco
04-01-2010, 21:34
confronting and criticising people doesnt work (even if its constructive criticism)

its unlikely he would even read any emails or letters about the new nid book, when you release a book you will not please everybody so im sure the writers dont want people "advising" them and asking what the hell were they thinking

it could eventually get to the stage where (and im not saying its you so dont take this as a personal attack): lets assume they release a new dex then have a Q&A where you can discuss it with the writer (like in a chat hosted on the site or at an event) yes there might be the occasional person saying "yeah its a fair book but can I ask why the studio chose to do X Y and Z?" but your more likely to get some random ***** pop up and scream "OMFG WTF is wrong with you!!!!!!1! you nerfed my ******* army you SOB!!!!1!! im never buying your stuff again you suck!!!!1!!"

trust me people, the person above does exist, no doubt we've all come across him either in a store or on the net

I can see why GW doesnt want to risk it by letting people get to their writers, I mean Gav had a blog a while ago where people would turn up and flame him for the chaos dex, I mean the guy doesnt deserve the level of hatred and scorn directed at him, nobody likes people flaming them in their blog

EDIT: ADDITION

and writing a codex is a group effort, yes it says Robin Cruddace but we must remember theres lots of people contributing to the book, he wont have done every single unit and playtested them over and over and over (yes im assuming GW playtests)

Nonalyth
04-01-2010, 21:34
So if I disagree with something he did he know's far more then I and is superior so I am wrong?

Yes, that is correct. He is a professional, getting paid to do this. You are some guy on the internet. What you suggest is beyond insulting.

Besides, it's not like it's entirely up to him. They have play testing and what not, so it can't be completely wrong.

bigcheese76
04-01-2010, 21:38
The ego GW had is the one to make the most money. They know the Codex is going to sell well so they arent really too bothered about making changes to it and as they have paid Robin Cruddace to write the codex so trust him to do it well.

chaos0xomega
04-01-2010, 21:39
First, I would wait until the codex is actually RELEASED, and you yourself have had the opportunity to read it over, IN PERSON, for several hours, maybe days...

then, I would write to Jervis instead, since his address/contact point is given in white dwarf (See standard bearer article), and he is also the head of development. If you really want to give Robin Cruddance (thats his name, right?) tips rather than JJ, then just right "Forward to Robin Cruddance" in the address block.

And, for the love of god, start (and end) with a positive comment. He will be far more likely to take your criticism if you point out the positives. Also a suggestion for how you start, I would write something to the effect of " Dear Robin, I am writing you to give you some feedback on the latest Tyranid Codex. I think it is important that you, and the other writers of codecies, recieve feedback from the perspective of an outside observer, a gamer rather than a game developer."

And it can only help yourself if you lay out/organize your argument in a logical manner...

Vepr
04-01-2010, 21:41
It's not a "pdf leak" is it? Arn't the books in some hobby stores ?

There is a pdf out there that is supposed to be the info from the German dex.

naloth
04-01-2010, 21:41
Yes, that is correct. He is a professional, getting paid to do this. You are some guy on the internet. What you suggest is beyond insulting.

Besides, it's not like it's entirely up to him. They have play testing and what not, so it can't be completely wrong.

Sarcasm or are you just new to the hobby?

Regardless, it's premature at this point to get out the pitchforks. Let's wait for the proper release so we can try out and confirm everything.

I suspect it's more of a poorly balanced 'dex where there will be a few excellent choices, some mediocre ones, and a lot of rubbish - much like the current 'dex.

Ozeor
04-01-2010, 21:43
Yes, that is correct. He is a professional, getting paid to do this. You are some guy on the internet. What you suggest is beyond insulting.

Besides, it's not like it's entirely up to him. They have play testing and what not, so it can't be completely wrong.

Please tell me your joking? If someone does something that we dont like we are just supposed to roll over for it? I dont care he's a paid writter, I am the one paying for the book and models and therefor paying him. The money comes from people like me. No business in the world would run with the plan that you are suggesting! You go to a resturant and get the wrong food or it looks completely different you just say "oh well the chef knows better then I"

Once again, i'm not looking to flame and scream, just would like to ask a few questions and see what the line of thinking was at the time it was being written and play tested. As for the codex I have it in my hand and it has some very weird thing's in it for the points cost and thats all I wanna address. The codex is well laid out and well planned but the points I wanna know what's up.

Are they worried that they will have nidzilla on there hands again?

Crovax20
04-01-2010, 21:46
Too be honest I bet there will still be killerlists made out of the new nid codex, and this whining about some units not being theoretically as optimal as others is garbage. Its not like you always have to field the theoretically most effective list, I bet everyone here plays friendly games in a relaxed environment that has room for these suboptimal units.

LonelyPath
04-01-2010, 21:49
Even though Robin's name is up in lights on the codex, it's better to think of him as a team leader and/or editor for the book. Alot of the material would have been written, tested and finalised by other people while he compiles it and makes other changes. it's what designers do in many gaming companies (I used to know a good few of designers for d20 D&D books and they were always complaining that they didn;t have enough control over what when into the final product, as most was written by others that would put in some niggling errors they couldn't change in the editing stage, this led to a whole group of them leaving the d20 circuit).

Vepr
04-01-2010, 21:55
Even though Robin's name is up in lights on the codex, it's better to think of him as a team leader and/or editor for the book. Alot of the material would have been written, tested and finalised by other people while he compiles it and makes other changes. it's what designers do in many gaming companies (I used to know a good few of designers for d20 D&D books and they were always complaining that they didn;t have enough control over what when into the final product, as most was written by others that would put in some niggling errors they couldn't change in the editing stage, this led to a whole group of them leaving the d20 circuit).

If this is the case we need to ask Robbin who is responsible for the new Carnifex and the Pyrovore so we can burn them at the stake. :mad: :p

Ozeor
04-01-2010, 21:56
If this is the case we need to ask Robbin who is responsible for the new Carnifex and the Pyrovore so we can burn them at the stake. :mad: :p

Carnis are not that big of a deal in honesty, I plan on putting a tervigon with a brood of carnis and giving them a 4+invul, but the pyrovore with such a gorgeous model and it being new, you would think they would of given it sweet rules instead of the load of crap he is.

Vepr
04-01-2010, 22:00
Carnis are not that big of a deal in honesty, I plan on putting a tervigon with a brood of carnis and giving them a 4+invul, but the pyrovore with such a gorgeous model and it being new, you would think they would of given it sweet rules instead of the load of crap he is.

Yeah I tried to test out the Pyrovore with the pod, with tunnels, without and I just can't see how they play tested them and thought they were worth even putting on paper. The sad thing is Biovores are no better than before so it is not like it is even worth it to buy the Pryovore model as Biovore proxies. :cries: :)

druchii
04-01-2010, 22:00
Was wondering if anyone knew how to get in contact with Robin Cruddace, I would really like to send him a email and let him know about the stuff I dont like about the new nid codex. I don't wanna bitch or moan, just offer some advice. I am really not happy with the points cost on somethings and wanna know what he was thinking when he did the rules for the pyrovore, I would just like some justification for what was done. There is some amazing units in there and would be great to field, but at 150pts+ for good stuff, that seems very silly. I love the deathleaper rules but for his points I would field 3 lictors. The winged tyrant cost is just plain retarted and so is the tyrannofex, the tyrannofex I might pay if he had BS4.

Here's my idea:
Type up and post your letter here.

Let US get a good look at it before you send it off. Even if no one at GW reads your letter it might make you feel better to just know you codified your thoughts and got some good feedback on it from a community (that if you believe the MASSIVE number of 'nid whine threads) dislikes the new book.

And I also believe that if you're gonna get your name pasted on a book, you better darn well be prepared to take responsibility for EVERYTHING inside that book.

I know if you put MY name on a book everything would be proofed, balanced, double checked, agonized and debated over for months on end.

d

Pvt. Ratt
04-01-2010, 22:01
Good luck actually getting contact with anyone outside of a Red Shirt.

I've been emailing them both inquiries and requests upon the possible plastic SoB. As of yet I have not seen a single reply. I am frustrated at this, but then again I am not surprised. A company as large and successful as GW does not and would not reveal that kind of information on product to a customer such as my self. That would simply be bad marketing.

When it comes to sending criticism, constructive or not, it really is not worth it. In the slightest. They won't read it, and if they did they simply won't respond. I am sure they get copious amounts of hate mail (I've been sorely tempted several times) and criticism. It is more likely on a 'Scrap-It' basis anyways.

I wouldn't complain about the 'Nids. Think about other armies that simply have not been updated (DE! DE! DE!) in more time than I care to try and remember. Anyways, the 'Nids has been and always will be a tough and brutal army. I know this because I have had my army(s) stomped by those stinkers more times than I care to remember. The 'Nids will keep on trucking, never fear for that is fact.

tezza21
04-01-2010, 22:07
i have 1 question what is a tyrannofex

The pestilent 1
04-01-2010, 22:40
Assuming Warseer is the standard for whining in this hobby, I can only imagine all the mail he receives goes through bomb squad first.

LonelyPath
04-01-2010, 22:43
If this is the case we need to ask Robbin who is responsible for the new Carnifex and the Pyrovore so we can burn them at the stake. :mad: :p

I was using the d20 shinanegans as an example, I'm not saying that GW limits their designers as much, but it does happen in some companies.

The Pyrovore and Fex are just 2 models, there's almot more in the book besides them I'm sure (I've not got my hands on it yet though).

Free Spirit
04-01-2010, 22:48
i have 1 question what is a tyrannofex


I will show you with my windows paint skillz!

In all seriousness... chaos0xomega is spot on. I think it's fair to give feedback from the community. We are all hobbyists with gallons of passion for the hobby, the game and everything that revolves around it. I happen to know a game designer myself and he told me loads of designers browse the community pages and boards like mad. Not for ideas, but for reactions.

Plus, IF you're gonna send a letter, my boy chaos had quite a nifty opening line!

dreamwarder
05-01-2010, 00:07
Yeah dude, what you want to do there just isn't cool. Even if I had his email I wouldn't give it ya.

How would you like it if someone sent you an email about how you're doing your job all wrong? Harsh from someone who knows your job really well and has been doing it longer than you, especially bad if its from somone who has no idea at all about how your business works but earnestly thinks they do.

Shadowfax
05-01-2010, 00:18
Yeah dude, what you want to do there just isn't cool. Even if I had his email I wouldn't give it ya.

How would you like it if someone sent you an email about how you're doing your job all wrong? Harsh from someone who knows your job really well and has been doing it longer than you, especially bad if its from somone who has no idea at all about how your business works but earnestly thinks they do.
Well, you're naively classifying it in the simplistic terms of an outsider/insider relationship, when really you should be focusing on the customer/merchant aspect.

TheDilz
05-01-2010, 00:21
So if I disagree with something he did he know's far more then I and is superior so I am wrong?

I sincerly hope they do not have that kind of ego. I planned on explaining my point of view and not bash him at all, was just wondering whats up. Besides it's not like he can change it now can he?


Its not him being right and you being wrong its more the point of he wrote the codex- its done, theres no changing it, and he doesnt need your criticism/changes/help at this time.

You as a consumer can choose several options when you dont like a product.

Option 1 is dont buy it. Then you dont have to whine about how it doesnt work how you want.

Option 2 is buy it and play it and just work with it as it is...theres no changing it now.

Option 3 is buy it, play with it, then ask on Warseer how you can go about whining about it to the author- who by the way doesnt care, and wont change anything one bit based on your opinions.

Of these 3 options I generally choose option 1- I save alot of money not buying crap, and save people a lot of time to not have to hear me whine about crap I bought I dont like.

Ozeor
05-01-2010, 00:23
Yeah dude, what you want to do there just isn't cool. Even if I had his email I wouldn't give it ya.

How would you like it if someone sent you an email about how you're doing your job all wrong? Harsh from someone who knows your job really well and has been doing it longer than you, especially bad if its from somone who has no idea at all about how your business works but earnestly thinks they do.

Where are these trolls coming from??

Did you even read my post?

I stated that I did not wanna flame him at all, only ask him what was the thought process behind some of the changes, he is writting the codex's for us, not himself. So your saying that we cant provide feedback based on what he writes all because you say he knows better then all of us put together? Please go back under your bridge.

There are things in the codex which is great and amazing! I love the rules for thing's like the the deathleaper, but I do not understand the point values on some units, like the pyrovore. With the time and money going into sculpting something that badass and we get the rules of a guardsmen with a flamer is kindof killing it. No one that I know of will field one of those. I wanted to ask what was up with giving him the rules that he has. There is nothing more too it then that. Please read my other posts in other threads about the new nid codex before you come in here and try and tell me how I should not provide feedback.

And go get a job in the real world and you will understand this is how the world works. Companies provide a product, then they get feedback based on that product, then the change the product based on that. Ever hear of a focus group? hell most companies spend more on research and marketing then they do on the actual product.

Mannimarco
05-01-2010, 00:25
^ this

if you dont like it dont buy it, if you do like some of it then buy it and use the parts you like but theres no point in buying it and liking some of it and hating others parts then wanting to whine about it, it accomplishes nothing

seriously i dont understand all the whining that goes on (and its not just the nids so dont y'all take offence here) if you dont like it then dont play it but dont whine (or "advise")

EDIT: NINJAD

im replying to (and agreeing with) TheDilz here

the thing is you want to provide feedback, no doubt many many gamers do for a variety of reasons but it just doesnt happen

chances are it wont be explained why it changed at even if it is it will be in such a way that the explanation pleases nobody: see codex csm "yeah we gutted it to make it more streamlined, took the vast majority of it away to make it easier to make a list that itsnt horribly broken.......whaddya mean it took you 10 minutes to see lash/oblit/pm spam"

talking about the real world and focus groups is all very well but your assuming GW actually cares, codex nids isnt the first :wtf: moment that had the fans scratching their heads and it wont be the last, if GW seriously cared about customer feedback and focus groups then:

1 - codex dark eldar probably wouldnt have been put off for a decade, plenty of folk have been screaming for it for years

2 - codex csm would be updated, theres a lot more hate for this than there is for the nids but its been how many years and no update

3 - squats, yeah im going there, silly idea but could have been changed/reworked from biker dwarves to somthing more fitting instead of "yep theyre all dead every last one of them is dead, the lot of them now shut up and shelf your entire army that doesnt exist anymore but hey thanks for the money"

Nonalyth
05-01-2010, 00:25
Please tell me your joking? If someone does something that we dont like we are just supposed to roll over for it? I dont care he's a paid writter, I am the one paying for the book and models and therefor paying him. The money comes from people like me. No business in the world would run with the plan that you are suggesting! You go to a resturant and get the wrong food or it looks completely different you just say "oh well the chef knows better then I"

There's a difference between getting the wrong thing and getting something you didn't expect. You buy the codex and it has Space Marines inside, you have a right to complain. You buy the codex and it's not what you think it should be, well, you're not the one getting paid to write it. It's one thing to voice your concerns on the internet, hell, I'm a chaos player, I've been there, but it's another entirely to try and tell someone how to do their job. It makes you no better than the insane fans how complain to an author because they feel the author betrayed their own characters. If you're looking for some justification, then wait for the design notes in white dwarf.

As for you being the one paying for it, there's a clear answer: Don't. You don't buy a sandwich if you hate bread, and if the codex is that bad you can say more by taking your money elsewhere than with any email.

Chaos and Evil
05-01-2010, 00:29
GW email addresses... nope, ain't gonna give you any.

However, if you try writing a real letter with a real envelope and stamp etc...

Shadowfax
05-01-2010, 00:32
There's a difference between getting the wrong thing and getting something you didn't expect. You buy the codex and it has Space Marines inside, you have a right to complain. You buy the codex and it's not what you think it should be, well, you're not the one getting paid to write it. It's one thing to voice your concerns on the internet, hell, I'm a chaos player, I've been there, but it's another entirely to try and tell someone how to do their job. It makes you no better than the insane fans how complain to an author because they feel the author betrayed their own characters. If you're looking for some justification, then wait for the design notes in white dwarf.

As for you being the one paying for it, there's a clear answer: Don't. You don't buy a sandwich if you hate bread, and if the codex is that bad you can say more by taking your money elsewhere than with any email.
It's unreasonable and unrealistic to assume that someone who has invested years and hundreds of dollars in a hobby will be comfortable dropping it at the first sign of a badly-handled update. A lot of people are tied to their army, and will stick it out during the hard times.

I don't see the problem with holding a designer accountable if his designs are failures.

Vaktathi
05-01-2010, 00:52
Yes, that is correct. He is a professional, getting paid to do this. You are some guy on the internet. What you suggest is beyond insulting.


:wtf: This really isn't the case. GW dev studio guys aren't game guru's, they haven't gone through any sort of course to get where they are other than they love the game and happened to get a spot in there. They aren't like PC/Console game developers where they generally have staff that have an education and training in game theory and design. Alessio for example is where he is because he was good at *playing* Warhammer, not that he has any particular background or talent in game design.

The pestilent 1
05-01-2010, 00:55
How about you make your own rules then, if you hate them so much, I'm sure you can do a lot better.

Ozeor
05-01-2010, 01:03
How about you make your own rules then, if you hate them so much, I'm sure you can do a lot better.

I hope that wasnt directed at me, as I have stated several times already that I love the new dex, but a I have a few questions thats all.

Occulto
05-01-2010, 01:29
I don't see the problem with holding a designer accountable if his designs are failures.

Failure is so subjective. ;)

Going back to the restaurant analogy - it's not the chef's fault if he made a perfectly acceptable meal, but you happened to found it too spicy for your taste.

To the OP, send your letter to the address for the Standard Bearer. If it's constructive, it will be looked at, but don't necessarily expect the response you want - especially if it's to do with point costs.

Continuing the food analogy - your chef's received a lot of complaints that his dish is too spicy, then he'll tone it down in future. But it's unlikely he'll talk you through what he was thinking during every step of the cooking process.

Presuming the internet wisdom is true and GW cost things on gut feeling after a handful of playtest games, they're hardly going to admit that.

Theocracity
05-01-2010, 01:43
Failure is so subjective. ;)

Going back to the restaurant analogy - it's not the chef's fault if he made a perfectly acceptable meal, but you happened to found it too spicy for your taste.

To the OP, send your letter to the address for the Standard Bearer. If it's constructive, it will be looked at, but don't necessarily expect the response you want - especially if it's to do with point costs.

Continuing the food analogy - your chef's received a lot of complaints that his dish is too spicy, then he'll tone it down in future. But it's unlikely he'll talk you through what he was thinking during every step of the cooking process.

Presuming the internet wisdom is true and GW cost things on gut feeling after a handful of playtest games, they're hardly going to admit that.

Quoted for truth.

Speaking from experience in a different field here, it's not a designer's job to answer inquiries from customers. Topic does not matter, content does not matter, whether it's constructive or whining does not matter. That's not his job. If it was, he wouldn't be a designer; he'd be a customer service representative.

Eulenspiegel
05-01-2010, 01:55
Individual mails will be ignored, no question.

How do you give Cruddace your feedback?
Well, YOU donīt, but the 40K players all over the world do. Will Tyranid sales not reach expected levels? Will Tyranids play no role in tournaments? Or worse, will they dominate everything? Will the number of complaints on the internet be particularly high (compared to other army releases)?

I believe these are the facts the GW bosses consider when - in one year or two - they decide whether Robin Cruddace did a good job and should get a promotion, more codices to write, or be kicked from the company.

naloth
05-01-2010, 01:56
Speaking from experience in a different field here, it's not a designer's job to answer inquiries from customers. Topic does not matter, content does not matter, whether it's constructive or whining does not matter. That's not his job. If it was, he wouldn't be a designer; he'd be a customer service representative.

Speaking from experience here, you don't get change by accepting everything that comes. Feedback is just that. If you want to express it, do so respectfully and thoughtfully. Occasionally someone will pay attention. More often, it will be ignored.

From my experience with this hobby and this company there has been occasional response from the design team to the community. Take for example the changes to Terminators a few years after 3rd edition (and the very entertaining White Dwarf article saying how we shouldn't need them) and the rather rapid (by GW standards) correction to the Tyranid FAQ. There's an even better Warhammer Fantasy example where they adopted parts of an extensively tested DE update from one of the fan sites.

That being said there's usually a write-up about the codex in White Dwarf talking about changes between versions (often with the "why this was done" on a few units) which may answer your questions. If you wish to criticize though you should probably wait until well after the official release.

Loki73
05-01-2010, 02:48
They never return mail I have sent them an e-mail before, (cant remember what) legitimate critique. In the end they work for the dollar. Ironically we are the dollar.


or the Euro Peso Pound Sterling ect.....=)

Theocracity
05-01-2010, 02:51
Speaking from experience here, you don't get change by accepting everything that comes. Feedback is just that. If you want to express it, do so respectfully and thoughtfully. Occasionally someone will pay attention. More often, it will be ignored.

Well said. I didn't mean to imply that feedback was pointless, though rereading my post I can see how it read like that. I simply meant that most companies listen to feedback on a more large-scale and empirical basis. Large metrics of customer comments, sales figures, tourney data, etc. Personal opinions addressed to specific employees are likely to be ignored, if only because it's not their job to handle that kind of work.

I certainly wouldn't want any engineers answering customer complaints where I am. With their charisma, the customers might not get the kind of response they were hoping for! ;)

vladsimpaler
05-01-2010, 02:56
play testing and what not, so it can't be completely wrong.

A new Challenger appears:

Lash of Submission

Alessander
05-01-2010, 03:11
Gav Thorpe answers "why did you do this?" and general rules questions about his WH books and replies to most of the emails sent to him. Go for it. Just be polite.

Ozeor
05-01-2010, 03:17
Here we have a system at our resturants that as soon as you finish your meal you can go home and tell us how we did. Then if there are issues we can adjust them accordingly.

shabbadoo
05-01-2010, 08:34
So if I disagree with something he did he know's far more then I and is superior so I am wrong?

Basically yes, but I'll elucidate a bit as to why. Robin's name is on the book, but if you think he was the omnipotent overlord of the Tyranid codex and basically told everyone else he works with "I think the various 'Nids should cost this, and do this, and if you disagree you can all go ***DELETED BY ORDER OF THE INQUISITION*** yourselves!", then you'd be horribly, ignorantly wrong.

I'm not being mean, just very plainly honest. So, if you want to write a letter then write it to the design staff in general, as there are definitely multiple "culprits" that you are not happy with. GW does get snail mail, but probably not a lot of it so an actual letter may even be read by somebody, and perhaps bring some amusement to the lads as they sip tea or a pint at Bugman's.

Sleazy
05-01-2010, 08:59
Why should he have to justify himself to a random internet user?

While you are on you might as well email Mitchell Scanlon about the marmite of books Decent of Angels, get on the blower to George Lucas and ask what the hell that was all about and please please please call Mike Ashley and ask him to justify his running of Newcastle United cos I sure as hell cant.

My point is this is a professional author/writer/whatever and whilst you are entitled to your opinion on the quality of their work it would be incrediblely rude and disrepectful to ask them to justify it to you.

If I were the recipient of such a request my response would be to get over yourself.

Tokugawa100
05-01-2010, 09:17
And I also believe that if you're gonna get your name pasted on a book, you better darn well be prepared to take responsibility for EVERYTHING inside that book.

I know if you put MY name on a book everything would be proofed, balanced, double checked, agonized and debated over for months on end.

d

Yes and while were at it, we should send a letter to every single person who helped put together the book, theres a list of them on the contents page I believe.

It might sound weird but I have no problems with the new codex and respect the teams decisions to change things.
Its their game and I respect that they have the power to do what they want, we may pay them but it doesnt mean we own them.

Seriously how will sending a letter to criticize the guys book change a darn thing, they arent going to recall the codex and say this one guy saids we should do this that way and reprint it.
I am not doubting your knowledge of Tyranid rules and I dont doubt the possibility that you might have better suggestions but his probably pretty happy with how its come out and doesnt want to listen to people his going to consider the odd whiners.

No disrespect intended I just really do believe he wont care even if you do it politely, because everything you say he will come back with

well we did it this way because....

and you will say

well that doesnt make sense, or you could have done it like this....

and he will say

well I guess thats your opinion.

Again no direspect intended.:)

P.S. I like the Chaos and Space Marine codex, "tee hee"

Ozeor
05-01-2010, 09:31
Then if we are so wise, explain pyrovore. I'm all ears.

Tokugawa100
05-01-2010, 09:34
And go get a job in the real world and you will understand this is how the world works. Companies provide a product, then they get feedback based on that product, then the change the product based on that. Ever hear of a focus group? hell most companies spend more on research and marketing then they do on the actual product.

I dont mean to be rude but your coming off more and more arrogant:p

You posted something on Warseer dude, not everyones going to agree with you despite how right you think you are its just plain uncool to call people trolls when they dont agree with you and assume they didnt understand your post.

He wasnt saying you were goin to flame him, you made that clear in your first post.
His just saying the pointlessness of your argument because ..

1. It will not change the codex.

2. Most feedback is learnt through sales "if they fall, somethings wrong, if they rise somethings right" trust me I know.

3. The guys probably over the moon that he got to head one of the biggest warhammer 40k races and couldnt give a rats about what those who oppose it think.
His not going to say "yes your right, what was I thinking"
if you flame him he will be polite and calmly reject your opinion.
if you be polite he will be polite and calmly reject your opinion as YOUR OPINION.

At least thats what I would do, if his happy with it he probably wont understand any critiscism you can give no matter how correct you think you are.


Then if we are so wise, explain pyrovore. I'm all ears.

Honestly I cant, some people will take a unit because they love that unit, not everyones a power gamer and needs every unit in their army to be super powered.
Ive always found that in each codex there is at least one or two units you probably wouldnt take unless it was a fluffy choice or you love the models.

I do it myself.:D


It makes you no better than the insane fans how complain to an author because they feel the author betrayed their own characters. .


Has anyone read Misery by Stephen King, he, he:D

Thats about as nuts as you can get.

Ozeor
05-01-2010, 09:51
This thread is going nowhere, I'm only asking what was up with some of the rules like pyrovore. Its a perfect model with rules that no one would ever field them, and this must of come up in playtesting, what was the reason for leaving them in etc.

There was no flamming etc, I just wanted info

Tokugawa100
05-01-2010, 10:11
This thread is going nowhere, I'm only asking what was up with some of the rules like pyrovore. Its a perfect model with rules that no one would ever field them, and this must of come up in playtesting, what was the reason for leaving them in etc.

There was no flamming etc, I just wanted info

I understand.

Your not going to go mail bomb this guy, threaten his family if things dont go your way or verbally abuse him and threaten him of physical harm.

Im sure your not like that, honestly I dont.

But even the idea of someone saying "why did you do these rules like this" comes off as a little rude.

I know, its not meant to be rude but to the designer it may come off as an insult, especially if they have this idea that its perfect how it is and anyone who questions it just doesnt get it.

Once again, i know all you want to do is ask a couple of questions, but the designer will either not read them, get it put through to customer services or answer with "i guess thas your opinion".

oCoYoRoAoKo
05-01-2010, 10:13
Well personally i dont think that anyone is above criticism but thats not what this seems to be about. It may be a better idea to ask about the process of game design using the Tyranid codex as an example.

It is far easier to ask about why the Fex/Pyrovore/whatever is costed and ruled the way it is when put into the context of an overall codex.

Cy.

yabbadabba
05-01-2010, 10:23
This thread is going nowhere, I'm only asking what was up with some of the rules like pyrovore. Its a perfect model with rules that no one would ever field them, and this must of come up in playtesting, what was the reason for leaving them in etc.

There was no flamming etc, I just wanted info

This threas has got somewhere just maybe not where you wanted it to go Ozeor.

First you cant offer advice unless you are an experienced games designer with evidence to back that up. What you can do is offer opinion.

Second that opinion is on poor ground because you havent playtested the units anywhere near enough to be able to justify that opinion empirically.

Finally your choice of words is not the best, is a tad to aggressive and "telling" not "asking".

There is obviously reasons for why these units are in the codex with those rules and points costs. Go and play a load more games, write to the fella explaining what you have done and ask for advice.

Or just dont play the army/units. You could take the book back right now and refund or exchange for something you are happy with.

Egaeus
05-01-2010, 10:25
It's unreasonable and unrealistic to assume that someone who has invested years and hundreds of dollars in a hobby will be comfortable dropping it at the first sign of a badly-handled update. A lot of people are tied to their army, and will stick it out during the hard times.

I don't see the problem with holding a designer accountable if his designs are failures.

I agree with this. The sad thing is the cynic in me has come to the realization that if you already play then GW doesn't really care about you. They're a business. They need to sell things to say in business. Thus the fact that you have anything already invested in the hobby is completely moot. The only way you're of any great use to GW is if they can get you to buy more.

My cynicsim stems from the fact that from everything I've heard about the new 'Dex makes it seem more like a crass money grab from GW then a well-designed ruleset.

(As I said, a very cynical take on it, as having an enjoyable hobby that you're willing to support and possibly suggest to others as something to take up is a good thing for the company as well.)



How about you make your own rules then, if you hate them so much, I'm sure you can do a lot better.

Actually, if one cares to look there are probably quite a few home-brew Tyranid Codexes floating around. Obviously even these are going to be of varying quality and depending on how much one sees eye-to-eye with the author they will be more or less "correct" to one's tastes.

Heck, I've considered writing my own Codex just for the sake of doing it. I have no illusions that it will ever be published (or even used for that matter).

The thing is that when purchasing an "official" Codex we make the assumption that GW has a vested interest in making a quality product that will provide a balanced game. But the Codex is also a marketing tool for them to push the "latest and greatest" models...so balance is just one of many motivating factors.



Honestly I cant, some people will take a unit because they love that unit, not everyones a power gamer and needs every unit in their army to be super powered.
Ive always found that in each codex there is at least one or two units you probably wouldnt take unless it was a fluffy choice or you love the models.

I do it myself.:D

The thing is, it's not about units being "super powered"...it's about them being balanced in respect to their usefulness and points cost. Yes, some units are situationally useful and so will likely see less use, but some units are just badly designed.

EmperorEternalXIX
05-01-2010, 10:27
So if I disagree with something he did he know's far more then I and is superior so I am wrong? No, it just doesn't ******** matter.

Throne, I am tired of Warseer and the way everyone here seems to think they could make a better game/codex/model/rule.

Tokugawa100
05-01-2010, 10:53
The thing is, it's not about units being "super powered"...it's about them being balanced in respect to their usefulness and points cost. Yes, some units are situationally useful and so will likely see less use, but some units are just badly designed.

Sorry, wrong choice of words.;)

I unserstand the desire for ALL units to be balanced but I think there are many factors which make this hard to do.

1. Firstly, its all subjectional as while one person may feel something is reasonably priced, another may feel its a "face palm":wtf:.

2. Fluff, fluff may put a model in a position where its very hard to make them balanced, perhaps they cost so many points because they are a rare unit in the fluff "say, a tyranid brood exclusively found in a single Hive Fleet" despite probably not being able to perform to make up for their point cost depending on how you use the model.
Its probably just a fun model to use.

3. Simple human error is possible, perhaps they did the math, it sounded fine, they did it again to double check and it still sounds fine.
This of course refers you to point 1.

4. Once again subjectional, even a unit which may seem obviously perfect for its point cost may seem a but hefty to others which brings us back to point 1.

etc.

Y'he Sha'is
05-01-2010, 12:34
Working as a project manager for an architectural firm, you get guys like Ozeor commenting on our designs all the time. Designing anything is significantly more complex than serving someone food, and the comparison is useless.

Typically, as a lead designer, you get post-project questions like: "Why did you do XXX that way, when you could have done it this way?". I explain myself & my logic (which almost always has to do with money & cost, but rarely it is personal preference, I admit), and it usually ends up with the questioner saying "Well, you should have done it this way, because I think it works better." Apparently, in my case, everyone in the world is a professionally trained architect.

See the inital post here... apparently Ozeor is a professionally trained game designer... he certainly feels his opinion is worth more than the game designers in the initial post (this changed later on, but still the OP is a bit telling). Game design (just like architectural design, or any other design for that matter) has to take into account many things, and the inherent balance between them. Specifically, in the case of the Tyranid codex, issues of game balance, army balance, the "factor of cool", playability were all important, but the number one factor for any company is (by far) the cost/benefit ratios. At the end of the day, businesses design things to make money. For some reason, many gamers don't seem to understand this.

It seems GW felt that this codex would profit them more with a certain type of design over another (in this case, it seems to be a design mode that sells new models over promoting older ones). You can disagree that it isn't as playable, or as balanced (I agree), but at the end it's a tough economic market right now, and money rules the day in corporations.

The reason why nameless people on the internet shouldn't spout their opinion on the quality of work of a design is that none of us know all of the influences that went into the design process, except (maybe) the project manager. You cannot make an educated criticism without knowing the entirity of the project.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Don't buy the new models. Play another gaming system. One of the best ways to make a company see their project is bad is to hit them in the pocketbook.

Criticism on a particular facet of the project (in this case the playability), while it can be noble and valid, means next to nothing to the lead designer in light of the entire project.

yabbadabba
05-01-2010, 12:54
Well said Y'he Sha'is

oCoYoRoAoKo
05-01-2010, 12:55
...

in this case, it seems to be a design mode that sells new models over promoting older ones


See therein lies the problem. rules sell models. Take the case of the pyrovore. When i saw the model i was ready to go and buy a full unit of them. Then i saw the rules and since they are pretty much useless im not going to buy any. Im sure im not the only one here who was thinking the same thing.

Cy.

Vaktathi
05-01-2010, 13:20
Criticism on a particular facet of the project (in this case the playability), while it can be noble and valid, means next to nothing to the lead designer in light of the entire project.


From both a marketing and a managerial perspective, it sure as hell should if they are any good at their job, because it helps improve future products and engages the client/customer and provides another circuit for the value chain. A project leader that can't assimilate criticism or won't (assuming it's something legitimate and valid and not just whiny) of a particularly important facet (playability is important because if it doesn't play well the product won't sell) is failing in their responsibilities and delivery of product/services and isn't worth the money they are getting paid.

And again people are assuming that the GW dev studio team have extensive background and are trained in game theory and design. As far as I've ever heard, seen, read (several developers have open LinkedIn profiles for example), etc. none of them have anything of the sort outside of the work they've done for GW. They are essentially fans that landed the big job or people that have been there forever, not people with any sort of education or extensive previous background in game design by and large. It's nowhere near like some random joe criticizing a trained engineer or architect.


All that said, I don't think the tyranid codex is all that bad. I just had to chime in on that.

yabbadabba
05-01-2010, 13:34
....not people with any sort of education or extensive previous background in game design by and large... Is anybody?

Vaktathi
05-01-2010, 13:42
Is anybody?

Yes, there are programs and schools that train people in game theory and design, however almost all of them end up going to work for video game developers. Hence why I was trying to point out that criticism of GW's dev team isn't like a consumer questioning a professional engineer.

yabbadabba
05-01-2010, 13:48
Yes, there are programs and schools that train people in game theory and design, however almost all of them end up going to work for video game developers. Hence why I was trying to point out that criticism of GW's dev team isn't like a consumer questioning a professional engineer. Hmmm - be interesting to see if they are actually any use for the wargames industry.

marv335
05-01-2010, 14:49
I can think of several units that the internet has decreed are entirely useless and overcosted, but have, after a while found their way into some nasty power lists.

4th ed Scout bikers. Universally decried as the worst/most pointless unit in the codex.
Universally feared and declared broken in my gaming group after I learned how to use them.
Ork Burnas. shove them into a transport, watch opponents army dissapear.

Give it some time, they will find a niche.

If you still need to complain, write to him c/o the rules development studio, GW Lenton.
It'll probably be round filed though.

Vepr
05-01-2010, 15:15
Actually most good companies appreciate feed back especially if it is constructive. I would imagine GW would be this way more than others because their advertising is mainly word of mouth with gamers getting other gamers to buy their products.

All companies expect criticism. If it is over the top or angry it is often ignored but if they see enough of it in a particular area they pay attention. It does not mean anything will change with this codex or it might if they feel like clarifying something in the FAQ but more importantly it could matter to future products.

Sales are one indicator of a problem but most companies would rather know before it gets to that point because it becomes a lot harder to correct.

TheShadowCow
05-01-2010, 15:18
Well, you're naively classifying it in the simplistic terms of an outsider/insider relationship, when really you should be focusing on the customer/merchant aspect.

Why? If you're going to say that we pick Relationship X over Relationship Y, explain why this is the case (both in terms of why X is wrong and why Y is right), rather than just saying someone is naive.


It's unreasonable and unrealistic to assume that someone who has invested years and hundreds of dollars in a hobby will be comfortable dropping it at the first sign of a badly-handled update. A lot of people are tied to their army, and will stick it out during the hard times.

I don't see the problem with holding a designer accountable if his designs are failures.

On a smilar note, how are we defining success and/or failure? Even more exciting, you don't know how "successful" or "unsuccessful" the Codex is yet, because you haven't seen it clock up a degree of empirical evidence. Large gaming systems with a diverse group of players behave in interesting and unpredictable ways, and experimentation and analysis often lead to sweeping changes in how content is used.

A topical example would be the "lolz Chaos Daemons suck, no charge on the DS turn and so they get shot up and lose, so can never be competative" sentiment that was carried by popular opinion, which was promptly under-mined by Fatecrusher winning a few tournaments.

I'm not saying that a person shouldn't be accountable for their work (indeed, it's a great way of tempering your thoughts on something), but can we maybe wait and see what happens before we reach for the pitch forks?


I can think of several units that the internet has decreed are entirely useless and overcosted, but have, after a while found their way into some nasty power lists.

4th ed Scout bikers. Universally decried as the worst/most pointless unit in the codex.
Universally feared and declared broken in my gaming group after I learned how to use them.
Ork Burnas. shove them into a transport, watch opponents army dissapear.

Give it some time, they will find a niche.

Quite so. Fatecrusher Daemon lists established Chaos Daemons as a potentially devastating tournament force as well, despite the screaming over how useless Kairos was because of his points costs and potential to run away.

Heck, off the top of my head I'd love to give Pyrovores a go in a city fight series of games...



Typically, as a lead designer, you get post-project questions like: "Why did you do XXX that way, when you could have done it this way?". I explain myself & my logic (which almost always has to do with money & cost, but rarely it is personal preference, I admit), and it usually ends up with the questioner saying "Well, you should have done it this way, because I think it works better." Apparently, in my case, everyone in the world is a professionally trained architect.

See the inital post here... apparently Ozeor is a professionally trained game designer... he certainly feels his opinion is worth more than the game designers in the initial post

Now this is good stuff. Blizzard get a lot of this on their forums (where they do heave out the occasional developer or designer to explain what's going on. The responses are almost always of the nature you mention, which is "I'm going to ignore your logic and the fact that your logic is based on experience and gradual development, and continue to scream that my home-brewed fix that took me thirty seconds to come up with is the best thing ever".

Vaktathi
05-01-2010, 17:25
Now this is good stuff. Blizzard get a lot of this on their forums (where they do heave out the occasional developer or designer to explain what's going on. The responses are almost always of the nature you mention, which is "I'm going to ignore your logic and the fact that your logic is based on experience and gradual development, and continue to scream that my home-brewed fix that took me thirty seconds to come up with is the best thing ever".

To be fair, Blizzard with WoW initially had a *huge* number of issues, as their lead designer (Kaplan/Tigole) was basically a guy who played Everquest a lot (along with another Pardo) and was the leader of a high profile guild in that game, with absolutely no game design experience, hence why classes needed to go through two rounds of almost complete redesigns before the first expansion and why they needed to readjust the # of people required for raids as the Everquest guys were used to 40 and 80 people events that took *all day* and the vast majority of the WoW playerbase really didn't care to spend 8 hours in a 40man raid (and why they've stepped content down in years since to get much more 5/10/20man and require less and less time). Literally, Blizzard was in the same position in that their lead designer basically was there because he was just a high profile Everquest player.

Tokugawa100
06-01-2010, 06:52
Actually most good companies appreciate feed back especially if it is constructive. I would imagine GW would be this way more than others because their advertising is mainly word of mouth with gamers getting other gamers to buy their products.

All companies expect criticism. If it is over the top or angry it is often ignored but if they see enough of it in a particular area they pay attention. It does not mean anything will change with this codex or it might if they feel like clarifying something in the FAQ but more importantly it could matter to future products.

Sales are one indicator of a problem but most companies would rather know before it gets to that point because it becomes a lot harder to correct.

Yes most companies appreciate feedback, but GW isnt like other companies.
You just said it yourself, most of their advertising is by word of mouth, this is highly unusual for any company who will usually advertise through media or radio.
Also in most cases of criticizing GW you will be unsulting someones creativity, you dont like how a model looks, someone built that model, you dont like how the fluff is, your insulting someones imagination, you dont like the point cost so you would be insulting someones opinion.
Ive always found GW entire company to be odd, when it comes to designing a game they will get a team of designers to come up with point costs and then play test every model.
However this isnt done in a blank white room where everyones wearing nueral helmets to measure their pleasure metres:D
this is usually a group of guys from the office who are probably buds of the designer and because of how much fun they are having probably think it IS great how they did it.

So thats the testing to gamers done and then comes the shipping and confident that everyone likes their idea as much as they do.

spaint2k
06-01-2010, 07:26
Please tell me your joking? If someone does something that we dont like we are just supposed to roll over for it? I dont care [if] he's a paid writter, I am the one paying for the book and models and therefor paying him. The money comes from people like me. No business in the world would run with the plan that you are suggesting! [If y]ou go to a resturant and get the wrong food or it looks completely different [do] you just say "oh well the chef knows better then I"[?]

Once again, i'm not looking to flame and scream, just would like to ask a few questions and see what the line of thinking was at the time it was being written and play tested. As for the codex I have it in my hand and it has some very weird thing's in it for the points cost and thats all I wanna address. The codex is well laid out and well planned but the points I wanna know what's up.

Are they worried that they will have nidzilla on there hands again?

If anyone is going to write a letter to GW it couldn't hurt to use a spell-checker and make sure that grammar and punctuation are of an acceptable standard. It will certainly improve the chance of the letter not being tossed into the garbage.

borithan
06-01-2010, 08:48
I have to say I feel there should be more open and frequent "Why we did this" kind of stuff in the Codices and White Dwarf. Having design notes often make it clearer why some apparently (to certain people) boneheaded decisions were made, and show that it was not some ***** mistake and actually a well thought out decision (also often makes it easier to see what they intended final result is so that it is in fact easier to see where they have actually failed, rather than where people think they have failed).

Basically my opinion on this was made by reading the design notes for the change from 2nd ed to 3rd ed 40k in an old White Dwarf. I wasn't playing at this point, and so when I saw the more interesting looking 2nd and 1st edition rules I had wondered why they had so simplified and diceified so much of the game when making 3rd. The White Dwarf article made a lot of this much clearer, and I could sympathise with the decisions (even if I still think some of the change are a shame). For example, the change from "to hit" modifiers to "cover saves", which I had thought was just pointless simplification, made to make it more friendly for those who didn't want to do very basic maths. The article clarified it had more to do with complicated shooting, which could lead to having to keep track of different modifiers for different weapons and shooters. As the game got larger in its scale (as it has been over its life, from patrol sized narrative skirmishes, to platoon scale battles, to company sized battles, and now, with apocalypse, to stupid scale battles) this just increaqsingly slowed the game down, which adding another dice roll stopped.

I guess basically I am asking for a return to better White Dwarves, allowing for better explanation for what they are doing.

Trying to contact the Codex designer is pointless. For one, it to me feels uncomfortably close to harassment, and secondly is unlikely to have any impact (a person who feels harassed is unlikely to be open to change). If you really need to make the complaint (before the Codex is even released or even had a chance to properly play with it?) do so directly to the company. It will probably do absolutley nothing, but you have had your say. If it happens to be properly read and you get a reply, all the better.

Tokugawa100
06-01-2010, 09:29
To the OP.

Would you mind typing a draft letter to give us an idea of what you would put in it, just so we can see how you would go about making your point.
It could give us some insight into EXACTLY what you intend to say and give us an oppurtunity to give advice, even if it probably wont get read.

yabbadabba
06-01-2010, 10:38
I guess basically I am asking for a return to better White Dwarves, allowing for better explanation for what they are doing
Thats not what WD is there for.

I know what you are asking for, and while I think designers notes are a great idea, I believe the majority of GW's customers will just see it as an interesting read. Some will refer to it when they hit speed bumps with their armies. A few will read into it corporate philosophy and a couple will analyse it to oblivion.

The ideal places for these things are websites or Indie magazines. So the challenge isnt to the designers to explain their thoughts - first must come the challenege to places like Warseer that they are going to handle such an opportunity maturely. Then there is the opportunity to challenge the designers in a mutually beneficial way.

Thanghul
06-01-2010, 11:32
It's not a "pdf leak" is it? Arn't the books in some hobby stores ?

I had it in my hands earlier this week.

Prime Warriors are sooo cool. And so too are Biozores.

Lots of fun to be had that is for sure.

Shadowfax
06-01-2010, 14:47
Prime Warriors are sooo cool. And so too are Biozores.

Wait... was the codex you read written in Australian? :angel:

borithan
06-01-2010, 15:27
Thats not what WD is there for.Well,l I know it has become little more than an advertising pamphlet, but its exactly that kind of thing WD should be there for (as well as interesting gaming, background and modelling articles).



I know what you are asking for, and while I think designers notes are a great idea, I believe the majority of GW's customers will just see it as an interesting read.Yes... Don't exactly see that as a problem. If it is just an interesting read for most it is still an interesting read. I don't see this as a way to encourage people to complain about things... I would actually see it helping reduce complaints. As I said, if you know why something was done you can often respect it better than if it just comes across as an abitrary decision, even if you disagree with it.



Some will refer to it when they hit speed bumps with their armies.What do you mean? Read it to get ideas about how the army was meant to be envisioned in order to get an idea on how to make a better army? If so, I see no problem at all.



A few will read into it corporate philosophyNot sure what you mean by that.



and a couple will analyse it to oblivion.Analysing something concrete (an explicit statement of the intentions of the creators) to oblivion is better than trying to infer intentions from the codices, and then trying to analyse them.

yabbadabba
06-01-2010, 15:55
Well,l I know it has become little more than an advertising pamphlet, but its exactly that kind of thing WD should be there for (as well as interesting gaming, background and modelling articles). It is GW's only marketing and advertising channel to people who are not buying their products and do not know who they are. I think a very small %age of the general population will want to read such an article as a first touch - or even after a few months. Therefore it shouldn't be in there. In this day and age the web is the best place for such an article.

What do you mean? Read it to get ideas about how the army was meant to be envisioned in order to get an idea on how to make a better army? If so, I see no problem at all. Yes - also to get some clarity on how certain units were supposed to be used according to the designers, as opposed to according to the player or his best mate.

Not sure what you mean by that. There are some who consider each rule set release as an indication of how the next generation of releases and codices/army books will develop and how GW Studio see their games. For instance the next WFB BRB is supposed to be more focussed on scenario/campaign play and less "line-em-up-and-knock-em-down". Yet GW treat almost every release as a chance to play with the rules anyway.

Analysing something concrete (an explicit statement of the intentions of the creators) to oblivion is better than trying to infer intentions from the codices, and then trying to analyse them. The rulebook is an explicit statement of the intentions of the creators. Those happy working within the boundaries of the rulebooks, or who are happy to evolve their own variations rarely worry to much about the designers intentions although they could well be interested. I would assume that those who feel the need to delve further into those intentions for playing reasons are probably looking to play in areas outside of the designers original design needs.

borithan
06-01-2010, 16:39
It is GW's only marketing and advertising channel to people who are not buying their products and do not know who they are.Eh? I can't imagine many people who don't know or play GW stuff are likely to buy White Dwarf... yeah, you can get it outside GW shops, but never in any great numbers, and only in certain newsagents. Word of mouth, the simple presence of GW shops and Dawn of War are probably the main routes people get into GW stuff. I have never seen or heard of anyone reading WD who didn't already know of GW stuff.



I think a very small %age of the general population will want to read such an article as a first touch - or even after a few months.Wel, if they had a larger number of substantive articles (rather than the maybe fluff piece for the latest releases, a Battle Report, and then maybe another piece each for the two games not yet covered, all being a bit on the light side) then it wouldnt overpower the magazine. They already do a piece on a new released codex anyway... just need to make it less "Look, this is so amazing", "Whoo Pyrovores" and discuss the thinking behind it more. They already do, just should do it more substantively. Basically it should be more of an article and less of an advertising piece.



Therefore it shouldn't be in there. In this day and age the web is the best place for such an article.Being on the internet does not mean more accesible. Ok, to people like you and me, totally web-literate wargames geeks, but even in this day and age some people don't have internet access, and even many that don't are not used to the idea that you look up a certain website for updates or news on certain things.

Ok, maybe these kind of people are likely to care less about stuff like designers' notes, but there will be some... and anyway, there is always something preferable to having an actual piece of magazine/book to read for this kind of stuff.



Yes - also to get some clarity on how certain units were supposed to be used according to the designers, as opposed to according to the player or his best mate.Sounds just like the kind of thing a not so experienced gamer might want to find out about... perfect for White Dwarf, surely?



There are some who consider each rule set release as an indication of how the next generation of releases and codices/army books will develop and how GW Studio see their games. For instance the next WFB BRB is supposed to be more focussed on scenario/campaign play and less "line-em-up-and-knock-em-down". Yet GW treat almost every release as a chance to play with the rules anyway.Yeah... but that doesn't invalidate the idea. Just means some people are going to be dissapointed by what appears, at least to them, to be shifting and changing priorities.



The rulebook is an explicit statement of the intentions of the creators. Those happy working within the boundaries of the rulebooks, or who are happy to evolve their own variations rarely worry to much about the designers intentions although they could well be interested.Well, aside from the "have fun" element there seems to be ambiguity in the rules that many people endlessly debate on this forum. Not an issue I have ever had when playing, but certainly seems to be an issue for many people.

Shadowfax
06-01-2010, 17:31
The rulebook is an explicit statement of the intentions of the creators.
No it isn't. Even that sentence is a logical contradiction.

A rulebook is a rulebook. You may believe you can read into the intentions behind its design, but they are not, by any stretch of the imagination, explicit.

yabbadabba
06-01-2010, 17:48
No it isn't. Even that sentence is a logical contradiction.
A rulebook is a rulebook. You may believe you can read into the intentions behind its design, but they are not, by any stretch of the imagination, explicit.
Please explain? Doesn't the rulebook explain how to play the game in a "clearly developed or formulated" way? And isn't this the intention of the designers?

Shadowfax
06-01-2010, 18:30
I don't really get where you're going with this.

We're not talking about Checkers here. This a large, complicated system of intertwined rules, full of contradictions, errors, gaps, contradictory interpretations, etc. Merely providing a new rule doesn't speak in any explicit way to the manner in which that rule is intended to be incorporated into the larger field of rules that are already established. You can assess the implications of a rule, but in certain situations there is no satisfactory conclusion to be drawn (See: Spinefists in the new Tyranid codex) and the only alternative would be simply ask the designer, "So what exactly were you thinking when you designed this?"

yabbadabba
06-01-2010, 19:18
.....You can assess the implications of a rule, but in certain situations there is no satisfactory conclusion to be drawn (See: Spinefists in the new Tyranid codex) and the only alternative would be simply ask the designer, "So what exactly were you thinking when you designed this?"There is a satisfactory conclusion because the design team reached it. That must mean that the process you are going through to find that conclusion is flawed.

Plenty of people manage to get through games of 40K on a regular basis without having to need the designers deepest insights and explanations to guide them. That says to me that the book fufills its requirements.

naloth
06-01-2010, 19:37
There is a satisfactory conclusion because the design team reached it. That must mean that the process you are going through to find that conclusion is flawed.

I don't understand this at all.



Plenty of people manage to get through games of 40K on a regular basis without having to need the designers deepest insights and explanations to guide them. That says to me that the book fufills its requirements.

Sure but everyone that plays the game has issues from time to time that aren't covered by the rules. That aside, the RAW doesn't provide any insight to what the designer was thinking when they wrote the rules.

There was a DE question a while ago about if you could get S7 (chariot killing S) using stars + poison. The rules were vague and it GW issued a different ruling than the designer demonstrating that RAW and designer intent aren't always the same thing either.

yabbadabba
06-01-2010, 20:09
I don't understand this at all. What benefit does GW have going to all the effort to design a unit and make a model(s) for it if it blatantly doesn't work or fit any kind of useful purpose including background? None as it would not sell. So there must be a reason for these units to be in the army books. If you cannot find the reason, then the process you are going through must be flawed, as there is a reason for that model existing. Therefore at some point the design team will have had to have reached a satisfactory conclusion about what they are doing.

The other thing to remember is that GW's systems are changing consistently - every FAQ, every new army book. To a person who doesn't go hunting for FAQ's, just plays for a laugh and rolls a dice to decide things (as I belive the rulebook suggests) these things are solved within the pace of the game, and in this they are fulfilling the designers intent happily - playing games and having fun and the rulebook is quite clear about that.

Some people need every detail nailed down in official script in order to play the game to their maximum enjoyment. Many hardcore tournament players are like that. in this case, yes I can see why they cannot see the designers intent written in the rules. This is quite possibly because GWs games are not designed for that purpose, and therefore that level of intricate detail is not examined.

Anyway this is going way off topic.

Shadowfax
06-01-2010, 20:17
You have seemingly deified the design team and attached inhuman attributes of perfection to their decisions. What exactly makes them immune to the incompetence and shortsighted that plagues the rest of humanity? The Emperor's Divine Inspiration?

Your logic is circular and empty:

Premise 1: The designers are tasked with creating balanced rules.
Premise 2: The designers have created some rules.
Conclusion: Therefore the designers have created balanced rules.

Really?

You're clearly coming from a pretty zany place here, so I don't see how the discussion can go anywhere.

naloth
06-01-2010, 20:29
What benefit does GW have going to all the effort to design a unit and make a model(s) for it if it blatantly doesn't work or fit any kind of useful purpose including background? None as it would not sell.

That's a whole lot of assumptions the biggest being that GW doesn't just produce models 'cause (as a company) that's their business. The rules and background may help sell models but it hasn't traditionally been their motivation.

If you disagree, well, it's because the designer intent hasn't been properly conveyed. :)

yabbadabba
06-01-2010, 20:43
That's a whole lot of assumptions the biggest being that GW doesn't just produce models 'cause (as a company) that's their business. The rules and background may help sell models but it hasn't traditionally been their motivattion

If you disagree, well, it's because the designer intent hasn't been properly conveyed. :)
GW have stated that their business is selling models. Everything is geared up for that. Therefore having a model in a codex which will not sell from the outset does not fit this business model. The community might disagree to that models useability and they are entitled to that opinion and the sales will reflect that opinion. Hence why so many GW products have gone the way of the dodo. But GW does not benefit by investing in a line they know will not sell. So why do it?

Again we are going off topic. Has our OP got anything to add, its been a while since we have heard anything.

MagnustheRaven
06-01-2010, 21:28
Then if we are so wise, explain pyrovore. I'm all ears.

First of all Ozeor, people not agreeing with you is NOT an insult it's part of a real and mature debate. They aren't trolling or flaming you, they are providing the basis for a DEBATE which is what online forums are for.

Secondly. You disagree with what the Tyranids have become. That's good that's your opinion and you choose to make this opinion public here on Warseer, that's great. But remember it's still only your opinion and other will (most likely, or rather almost guaranteed) have conflicting opinions.

What I do encourgae you to do (apart from dropping the Internet style of debate as it doesn't hold of anywhere aprt from some parts of the 'net anymore) is to write a letter, remain polite, constructive and avoid anything along the lines of "I think unit X should be this instead and cost less" those points will be ignored.

You should also NOt expect a reply and definatly not any changes in any direction until the next Tyranid codex comes out.

And please, stop calling people who disagree with you Trolls...

nosferatu1001
06-01-2010, 21:47
One little factotum to add to this discussion: the biggest WHFB selling armies? Empire and Orcs and Goblins. Considered amongst the weakest of the current line up - waaaay below the power curve.

This isnt one unit in an army being "underpowered", this is an entire army! yet they still sell well - undermining the premise of this thread somewhat.

So, unfortunately, what you may consider "useless" doesnt seem to translate to sales - simply being a cool model or cool army can be more than sufficient.

Shadowfax
06-01-2010, 22:57
If O&G are still one of the best selling armies (where do you get this information, btw?) I would contend that they're the exception to the rule.

nothere
07-01-2010, 00:23
I applaud the "you cannot complain about the codex unless you're a certified game designer" stance.
"You dont have the right to be unhappy about something and tell people about it. The designers know better"
"You're whining. Have you ever written any successfull codex? No? Then you have no right to complain!"
"The designers must have had a plan. They couldnt have made a useless unit. They are, after all, omniscient"
"If you dont see a reason behind it, it's your problem, not theirs. You're just dumb and dont see the big picture"
"EAT YOUR ***** OR GET OUT!"
All comedy gold.
Here's a newsflash - there is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling unhappy about something and trying to tell other people about it. It's absolutely normal, even more so when you happened to invest a large amount of money into that thing. You dont have to be a certified game designer or have a masters degree in codex writing to say "Hey, thanks for your work on the codex, but some things you did made me really-really sad, such as.." to the author. And if he answers you with "Thanks, lol, but i dont care what you think, you dumb f@#k", then he has a problem, not you. If he cant take critics, he shouldnt write anything.
Which leads me to a question - whats your problem with a person trying to give some feedback? Why is it wrong to try and find author's emal? I'm sure that the codex wasnt written for the enjoyment of the Robins's closest friends, but for the benefit of all tyranid players out there. And if i were the author, i would be very eager to find out what kind of job i did. Maybe, even try to explain my train of thought, that would certainly improve my and my company's reputation (unless, of course, i just did it for the money and i dont actually care about my work at all, and i'm pretty sure that's NOT the case here).

Occulto
07-01-2010, 00:43
So, unfortunately, what you may consider "useless" doesnt seem to translate to sales - simply being a cool model or cool army can be more than sufficient.

Plus "useless" is so subjective.

Not everyone uses armies that are designed to fight every other army in the 40K range in pickup games. Even if they do, everyone has a different play style - I'm completely useless when it comes to bikes and freely admit I've never been able to make them "work," but I know people who have done exceptionally well with pure bike lists.

Opinions on "useful" units for tournament play are going to be very different to "useful" units for a Cities of Death game that's part of a long running campaign against a known opponent.

Ozeor
07-01-2010, 01:26
I dont know how many times I need to state this but here goes for the 10th time. For those of you who have problems reading, i will try it again.

Read my other forum posts in other threads of my opinion on the new tyranid codex! I LOVE IT! So many new options so much new stuff to play with, tons of modeling options. My questions where to be very simple, #1 With all the money and time invested into the pyrovore in terms of making the model and designing it, why are the rules for such a gorgeous model so lackluster. Nids did not need anything close support related, but we needed more long distance related.

#2 Why the increase on points cost in terms of the fex and tyrant?

This was all I wanted to know, I didnt wanna say he sucked or was a idiot. I just wanted to know what was up with the changes to the MC's

I'm sorry that some of you disagree with me, but I have sunk thousands of dollars into my models and i been playing nids since 3rd, I have tons of forgeworld etc. All I wanna know is what was up with some changes.

I asked this before and no one can come up with an answer, only reasons why i am not on the same level as to question a GW writter, and others stating it is within my right to do such a thing. The question I put to you is, why the changes? Why the pyrovore the way he is?

jasdc1
07-01-2010, 01:32
I can't beleive this thread is still going. If any GW employee wanted to be contacted then their email addresses would be made public knowledge. As it is try complaining to custserv@games-workshop.com as that is the first address found on their website. Good luck with your rant.

Ozeor
07-01-2010, 01:35
I can't beleive this thread is still going. If any GW employee wanted to be contacted then their email addresses would be made public knowledge. As it is try complaining to custserv@games-workshop.com as that is the first address found on their website. Good luck with your rant.

Thanks for the troll, already have there email from before and its been stated several times already.

As for my rant, try reading my posts next time.

Occulto
07-01-2010, 01:46
#2 Why the increase on points cost in terms of the fex and tyrant?

This was all I wanted to know, I didnt wanna say he sucked or was a idiot. I just wanted to know what was up with the changes to the MC's

This codex is geared towards encouraging more horde armies and less Nidzilla.

I know people are raving about Trygons-this and Trygons-that but guaranteed, in a short while their weakness will be shown on the table. Mostly because what's good for killing MEQ will work very well against Trygons.

A hundred or so gaunts is a different matter entirely. Single shot, high strength, low AP weapons won't work nearly as well against them.

Codsticker
07-01-2010, 02:03
Anyway this is going way off topic.

Indeed; so does anyone have M r. Cruddace's email address or not? :mad:

Vepr
07-01-2010, 02:22
This codex is geared towards encouraging more horde armies and less Nidzilla.

I know people are raving about Trygons-this and Trygons-that but guaranteed, in a short while their weakness will be shown on the table. Mostly because what's good for killing MEQ will work very well against Trygons.

A hundred or so gaunts is a different matter entirely. Single shot, high strength, low AP weapons won't work nearly as well against them.

Actually I think it is headed more towards balanced lists instead of just horde. We are really still out horded by orks and to a point IG at least it seems that way to me in test games. Our little fellas still suck rocks without the buffs from the big guys which need support of the mid range bugs that need support from the small bugs etc.

You can still go heavy horde or MC but you are asking for thumping against certain lists especially mech if you lean on horde to much or the MC list will go up in a puff of smoke to melta and PF spam if they are not slowed down by something else in the list.

I am actually starting to think that we are going to be able to make fairly solid all comers lists.

Occulto
07-01-2010, 02:32
Actually I think it is headed more towards balanced lists instead of just horde. We are really still out horded by orks and to a point IG at least it seems that way to me in test games. Our little fellas still suck rocks without the buffs from the big guys which need support of the mid range bugs that need support from the small bugs etc.

You can still go heavy horde or MC but you are asking for thumping against certain lists especially mech if you lean on horde to much or the MC list will go up in a puff of smoke to melta and PF spam if they are not slowed down by something else in the list.

I am actually starting to think that we are going to be able to make fairly solid all comers lists.

That's what I meant. More "horde-like", rather than "more people will take hordes."

You'll still need your big bugs, but they'll need to be supported by the little critters and vice versa.

Or, to put it another way, you'll have to use more than 1/10th of the codex. :D

Shadowfax
07-01-2010, 04:08
A hundred or so gaunts is a different matter entirely. Single shot, high strength, low AP weapons won't work nearly as well against them.
But, y'know, literally everything else will. Up to and including punching Guardsmen.

Don't really understand your point about the Trygon. "It's weakness will be exposed; expensive guns will wound it!"??? So it's weakness is that fact that it can take wounds and die?

Hate to sound like a dick, but isn't that totally obvious. And isn't it clearly outweighed by the fact that it's a T6, 6W monstrous creature that can appear in the enemy's backfield on turn 2 for ~200 points? I don't care how hard people start stacking the >6S, <3AP weapons, the Trygon will stay useless in the face of it.

vladsimpaler
07-01-2010, 04:14
Trying to change a Geedubya designer's opinion is like trying to argue with a Brick wall.

Trust me, it ain't gonna change the fact that he ruined your codex. Yes it sucks, I know how you feel.

There unfortunately is no good way to go around with the Tyranids now.

You can suck it up and not enjoy it, or just sell your stuff.

Vepr
07-01-2010, 04:21
But, y'know, literally everything else will. Up to and including punching Guardsmen.

Don't really understand your point about the Trygon. "It's weakness will be exposed; expensive guns will wound it!"??? So it's weakness is that fact that it can take wounds and die?

Hate to sound like a dick, but isn't that totally obvious. And isn't it clearly outweighed by the fact that it's a T6, 6W monstrous creature that can appear in the enemy's backfield on turn 2 for ~200 points? I don't care how hard people start stacking the >6S, <3AP weapons, the Trygon will stay useless in the face of it.

One thing that really bothers me that they did not fix is supporting our small bugs in CC. It is still asking to have anything bigger that helps them eat wounds hand over fist or talon over rending claw. It appears to be Tervigon or bust for our little guys.

dingareth
07-01-2010, 04:35
I'm surprised you can't figure this one out on their own, they use a very, very simple formula for their in-house email addresses. If you ask really, really nicely I'll let you know the formula and you can just plug his name in, and off your email will go!

Occulto
07-01-2010, 05:37
But, y'know, literally everything else will. Up to and including punching Guardsmen.

Nice hyperbole - now put down the red cordial and listen to my point.

Lots of things will kill gaunts, except those things which either aren't in a position to kill gaunts or don't want to kill gaunts.

Now, my calendar doesn't say that today is "Occulto pointing out the bleeding obvious to snarky internet posters" day, so I guess I must be getting at something a little more subtle here.

The codex is designed to be used as a combined arms force. Gaunts aren't there to survive. They're there to tie up the units that could be targetting the big bugs until the big bugs get into combat. So while your gaunts are getting seven shades of snot smacked out of them by bare-fisted guardsmen, the big bugs are walking round chuckling knowing that the ranged guns or power fists that are being used to blut gaunts, are not tearing holes in their exo-skeletons.


Don't really understand your point about the Trygon. "It's weakness will be exposed; expensive guns will wound it!"??? So it's weakness is that fact that it can take wounds and die?

Since the first rumours/leaked codex hit the shelves, people have been filling their pants with excitement at how Carnifexes are dead but there's a bigger, nastier, tougher bug in the arsenal.

Now, sure - go for that. But loading up on bigger, nastier, tougher bugs isn't necessarily the smartest decision. Just as more Landraiders aren't the solution to all of Marines problems - more MC aren't the solution to all of Tyranids problems. Why? Well I'll get to that...


Hate to sound like a dick, but isn't that totally obvious. And isn't it clearly outweighed by the fact that it's a T6, 6W monstrous creature that can appear in the enemy's backfield on turn 2 for ~200 points? I don't care how hard people start stacking the >6S, <3AP weapons, the Trygon will stay useless in the face of it.

The "why are people so vehement" thread's elsewhere in 40K General hombre. :eyebrows:

The weakness is this:

The current metagame generally revolves around mechanised forces and/or generally rather tough Elite armies.

MCs (like Trygons) are vulnerable to the very same tools that work against these armies.

Ergo, people who gear up to smack mechanised and/or generally rather tough Elite armies will not have to change their lists very much to deal with Trygon heavy lists. What's good for cracking a vehicle or a FNP Ork Nob, will usually be equally as good for cracking a MC.

So those who say: "Nidzilla's just going to be replaced with Try-zilla" (or some equally silly name) are going to find very quickly that they're not as scary as you might think. If people don't load up on little bugs, then the anti-mech weapons will remain the weapon of choice. No hordes of gaunts means I'm not wishing I'd taken the weapons to mow down lots of little weak critters.

On the other hand, those who don't jump on the MC band-wagon and start sensibly investing in a wide range of bugs from gaunts to the big bugs, will present opponents with a greater problem.

How to allocate your resources correctly to make the correct target selection.

This is the same reason why the loss of Eternal Warrior from Nid Warriors isn't as doom and gloom as people are making it out to be. Play your cards right and if your opponent is devoting all that S8+ weaponry against your Warriors, they'll be shooting themselves in the foot. That goes for anything - be it powerfists, meltaguns, missile launchers or ordinance.

Tokugawa100
07-01-2010, 06:43
Here's a newsflash - there is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling unhappy about something and trying to tell other people about it. It's absolutely normal, even more so when you happened to invest a large amount of money into that thing. You dont have to be a certified game designer or have a masters degree in codex writing to say "Hey, thanks for your work on the codex, but some things you did made me really-really sad, such as.." to the author. And if he answers you with "Thanks, lol, but i dont care what you think, you dumb f@#k", then he has a problem, not you. If he cant take critics, he shouldnt write anything.
Which leads me to a question - whats your problem with a person trying to give some feedback? Why is it wrong to try and find author's emal? I'm sure that the codex wasnt written for the enjoyment of the Robins's closest friends, but for the benefit of all tyranid players out there. And if i were the author, i would be very eager to find out what kind of job i did. Maybe, even try to explain my train of thought, that would certainly improve my and my company's reputation (unless, of course, i just did it for the money and i dont actually care about my work at all, and i'm pretty sure that's NOT the case here).

Heres a Newsflash for you, your not Robin.
Most of us have argued that it is not wrong to state an opinion, but it is pointless.
This whole thread is pointless, it wont change the codex, it wont change future releases and Robin will probably not respond at all because perhaps he cant take critiscicm and perhaps he has an ego.
I do not know him personally so you can take all this with a grain of salt but Im just stating my opinion.

My issue is that this whole thread is pointless, not just because of the controversial arguing going on between people but obviously no one has or wants to give the OP Robins email:p

Oktober
07-01-2010, 07:27
ozeor, I have already contacted GW in my country. what they suggested is first wait for the codex to come out and read it completely and if you are not happy with it call them and send them an email (emails) about how you are unhappy with it, which is exactly what I will be doing. I strongly disagree with the direction of the new codex. I know it's in pursuit of money but they don't have to ***** on those who bought a model that was great for one edition to have it totally suck the next...some I cannot even use due to rule changes. If I was a young kid who spent a few months allowance on one I'd be devastated. They could have made the carnifex still work and have the other creatures in the dex sell well...imo they would have sold more figures. Most people here are correct, one or two people complaining, nothing will happen, but a hundred or a thousand...they are a business and if enough people say your product sucks...it'll get changed.

+44 (0)115 91 40000

orders@games-workshop.co.uk

Ozeor
20-01-2010, 06:37
So now the codex is released, anyone got that email handy?

yabbadabba
20-01-2010, 08:17
On the other hand, those who don't jump on the MC band-wagon and start sensibly investing in a wide range of bugs from gaunts to the big bugs, will present opponents with a greater problem.

How to allocate your resources correctly to make the correct target selection. The best thing said on here will be lost on the tournament generation :mad:.

And Ozeor write him a letter. Their UK adderess is all over their product.

geoffkemp
20-01-2010, 08:49
As already mentioned, write a letter more likely to be taken notice of that way. The address of HQ is all over the place, such as the website, white dwarf etc.

Ozeor
20-01-2010, 08:58
Already done, also I came accross his email addy actually

Lord Solar Plexus
20-01-2010, 09:36
They have play testing and what not

Were did you get that from? I'm sure they have what not, but playtesting? :confused: Seriously?

player21
20-01-2010, 09:52
Lol this is great. Is the codex that bad? Maybe. Robin can have a career at BL with Gav.

Radium
20-01-2010, 10:17
Why do tyranid players feel they are the only ones with models that can no longer be used after an update to their army? Why all the complaining?

I really think the new codex is great. Sure, you've lost your sniperfexes but if you didn't see that one coming... I don't I need to finish that sentence. The carnifex has always been about cc, making it a shooting monster was just wrong.

And if you really, REALLY send them a letter (or email), please do so in a polite and constructive manner. It might open new ways of communication. If all the feedback they get is negative ("why is my carnifex so expensive?" "the pyrovore is useless!" etc) they won't respond well to it.

Ozeor
20-01-2010, 10:23
Why do tyranid players feel they are the only ones with models that can no longer be used after an update to their army? Why all the complaining?

I really think the new codex is great. Sure, you've lost your sniperfexes but if you didn't see that one coming... I don't I need to finish that sentence. The carnifex has always been about cc, making it a shooting monster was just wrong.

And if you really, REALLY send them a letter (or email), please do so in a polite and constructive manner. It might open new ways of communication. If all the feedback they get is negative ("why is my carnifex so expensive?" "the pyrovore is useless!" etc) they won't respond well to it.


It's not about having stuff useless, its about having all of our stuff jacked up in points. Like a hive tyrant thats now running around for 250+

Marines get Calgar and Vulkan for much much less. A hive tyrant is supposed to be walking/flying death, but he's so many points you could take 2 tactical squads and more for his price.

I love the new models, I love the new fluff, Your independents cost no where near our normal HQ's

IJW
20-01-2010, 10:30
Calgar costs the same as the tooled up Tyrant that you just mentioned, more if he takes Terminator Armour. Vulkan is a bit cheaper, though.

Souleater
20-01-2010, 10:49
The carnifex has always been about cc, making it a shooting monster was just wrong.

Actually I've been using shooty Fexes since 2nd Edition when they came with a rather handy 36" range S7 blast attack.

And nids have had shooting elements since their very first lists in the RT book. They have never been all about CC.

Iracundus
20-01-2010, 10:56
Actually I've been using shooty Fexes since 2nd Edition when they came with a rather handy 36" range S7 blast attack.

And nids have had shooting elements since their very first lists in the RT book. They have never been all about CC.

The bio-plasma required the Carnifex to stand still to shoot, instead of running/charging into CC. The only times I ever saw a 2nd ed. Carnifex fire off its bio-plasma was when it had the adrenal gland, which at the time allowed a once per game run + fire.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 11:46
Why do tyranid players feel they are the only ones with models that can no longer be used after an update to their army? Why all the complaining?

Because things seem to be priced randomly and untested. Venomthropes? Trygons a mere 40 points more expensive than a fex and a trygon prime cheaper than a flying hive tyrant?



I really think the new codex is great. Sure, you've lost your sniperfexes but if you didn't see that one coming... I don't I need to finish that sentence. The carnifex has always been about cc, making it a shooting monster was just wrong.

We didn't lose our sniperfex, it just sucks more than before. Vehicles and troops haven't gotten and slower since the tyranid codex came out. The carnifex' price renders it too expensive to go after troops compared to a cheaper, more effective trygon and too slow to go after tanks that can simply drive away.

As for sending a letter, GW won't respond in any meaningful way at all. What do people expect, for them to say "My bad!" and put out a new codex? GW will get their ass handed to them whenever they answer questions at games day and thats where they'll find out how steamed they've made people. The last thing thats going to happen is for the codex to be rescinded and anything other than that is basically useless to us anyhow.

Radium
20-01-2010, 11:54
As for sending a letter, GW won't respond in any meaningful way at all. What do people expect, for them to say "My bad!" and put out a new codex? GW will get their ass handed to them whenever they answer questions at games day and thats where they'll find out how steamed they've made people. The last thing thats going to happen is for the codex to be rescinded and anything other than that is basically useless to us anyhow.

The problem is they get in contact with gamers at the tournaments and games days. That does not represent the majority of the players, but it does represent the group that wants the product to differ from what GW wants it to be. I get what you mean though, and I can understand why you would feel upset, but I think people should give the codex some time. I know I've been tinkering with the codex some and I've some up with a couple of lists I wouldn't want to face.

And the character/tyrant comparison is not without it's flaws. Most characters are quite susceptible to ID (SM characters might not be, but that's more a flaw in that codex than anything else), whereas the tyrant only has to fear force weapons, wraithcannons, swarmlords and some other stuff. And for a force weapon to work, it'll have to circumvent Shadows in the Warp and possibly 'it's after me' as well.
I can see the point, but the comparison is not entirely valid. And I think we've seen an increase in the base cost for MCs with the Daemon codex, and others will (hopefully) follow the same route.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 12:08
Theres a big problem with increasing the price for MCs based on them being MCs rather than on what they can do.
The number of penalties a tyranid army has to fight through (Synapse, high specialization, lack of invulnerable saves) doesn't need to be compounded by overpricing the specialist and synapse units it needs to function and every synapse creature thats overpriced reduces how much of a swarm army we can field.
Who cares if hormagaunts are half the price, most of the models you need to control them are twice as expensive!

If a flash light goes from a ten dollars to five dollars but the two batteries it requires go from a five dollars to fifteen dollars I haven't saved any money.

This is exactly how the nid codex works.

And to make things worse we not only stack synapse on these big creatures but all of our anti-tank outside of zoanthropes as well!

Vaktathi
20-01-2010, 12:10
And to make things worse we not only stack synapse on these big creatures but all of our anti-tank outside of zoanthropes as well!

What about Hive Guard? Those things designed to pop transports?

azimaith
20-01-2010, 12:18
When I say tank I mean tank, not tin can on wheels. The number of things that can kill av10 in the tyranid army are numerous but you would be laughed at if you claimed on using venom cannon warriors soley as your armies "anti-tank."

Vaktathi
20-01-2010, 12:27
By transports, I was thinking more AV12 chimeras and wave serpents (most transports are higher than AV10). Hive Guard work just fine for that. 2 S8 shots from a T6 BS4 creature that don't need LoS for 50pts? I'll take it 9 please. I also don't recall mentioning venom cannon warriors anywhere.

Hive Guard are great anti-tank units unless you're hunting AV14.

Radium
20-01-2010, 12:47
Theres a big problem with increasing the price for MCs based on them being MCs rather than on what they can do.
The number of penalties a tyranid army has to fight through (Synapse, high specialization, lack of invulnerable saves) doesn't need to be compounded by overpricing the specialist and synapse units it needs to function and every synapse creature thats overpriced reduces how much of a swarm army we can field.

Now we're getting somewhere. I must admit you are the first to actually mention this as a problem (instead of whining about how you can't field lots of fexes in small points games).
In this case I fully agree with you, and it IS a problem. I can go on an blabber all about how you can work around the problem and all that, but it is still a bit of a problem.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 12:53
By transports, I was thinking more AV12 chimeras and wave serpents (most transports are higher than AV10).

Not in the rear armor they're not. Anti-transport weapons are vastly different from real anti-tank firepower. A lascannon is an anti-tank weapon, an autocannon is not, but the autocannon is better at popping transports.



Hive Guard work just fine for that. 2 S8 shots from a T6 BS4 creature that don't need LoS for 50pts? I'll take it 9 please. I also don't recall mentioning venom cannon warriors anywhere.

You can buy one for them, they come at strength 6 which is certainly low level "anti-transport"



Hive Guard are great anti-tank units unless you're hunting AV14. AV 13-14 is the front armor of most tanks.

Iracundus
20-01-2010, 12:58
As for sending a letter, GW won't respond in any meaningful way at all. What do people expect, for them to say "My bad!" and put out a new codex? GW will get their ass handed to them whenever they answer questions at games day and thats where they'll find out how steamed they've made people. The last thing thats going to happen is for the codex to be rescinded and anything other than that is basically useless to us anyhow.

There is the precedent of the 3.5 ed. Chaos Codex after the fiasco of the 3rd ed. Chaos Codex.

Vaktathi
20-01-2010, 13:03
Not in the rear armor they're not. Anti-transport weapons are vastly different from real anti-tank firepower. A lascannon is an anti-tank weapon, an autocannon is not, but the autocannon is better at popping transports. Most shots will be at the front, at least for the first two turns, hence my point about AV12. even then, the most common ones are still 11/12 on the side.



You can buy one for them, they come at strength 6 which is certainly low level "anti-transport" Yes but I was never talking about them.



AV 13-14 is the front armor of most tanks.Predators, Leman Russ Tanks, hammerheads, skryays, exorcists, vindi's, ironclads, land raiders, soul grinders and monoliths

then there's everything else that's AV12 or lower such as falcons, fire prisms, wave serpents, chimeras, hydras, hellhounds, bassy's, devilfish, razorbacks, whirlwinds, valkyries, looted wagons, rhino's, ravagers, raiders, defilers, dreadnoughts, sentinels, penitent engines, war walkers, trukks, pirhanas, immolators, vypers, and I'm sure a couple others I've missed. Some of these aren't strictly "tanks", but AT usually means anti-vehicle in general.


Certainly anything that's AV12 (common in at least 3 armies) is going to require firepower not found in most units that Hive Guard are great at killing.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 13:06
There is the precedent of the 3.5 ed. Chaos Codex after the fiasco of the 3rd ed. Chaos Codex.

Precedent for them rescinding a codex or making the next codex not retarded?


Most shots will be at the front, at least for the first two turns, hence my point about AV12. even then, the most common ones are still 11/12 on the side.

Rear armor is always hit in close combat and I can give nearly every single unit in my army furious charge.



Yes but I was never talking about them.

The point is they're light anti-tank but they're almost never used because you can get more versatile options cheaper. A hive guard is by far better than any venom cannon warrior but a zoanthrope is by far better than any hive guard.



Predators, Leman Russ Tanks, hammerheads, skryays, exorcists, vindi's, ironclads, land raiders, soul grinders and monoliths

then there's everything else that's AV12 or lower such as falcons, fire prisms, wave serpents, chimeras, hydras, hellhounds, bassy's, devilfish, razorbacks, whirlwinds, valkyries, looted wagons, rhino's, ravagers, raiders, defilers, dreadnoughts, sentinels, penitent engines, war walkers, trukks, pirhanas, immolators, vypers, and I'm sure a couple others I've missed. Some of these aren't strictly "tanks", but AT usually means anti-vehicle in general.

Note that nearly all of those are transports or IFVs(Transports with bigger guns)


Certainly anything that's AV12 (common in at least 3 armies) is going to require firepower not found in most units that Hive Guard are great at killing.
Great at killing them compared to what though? Like I said, 10 points more and you've got strength 10 AP1 lances. Hive guard are good, but they fulfill a somewhat uncomfortable middle ground. If they were found in any other FOC slot they'd be shoe ins.

yabbadabba
20-01-2010, 16:21
There is the precedent of the 3.5 ed. Chaos Codex after the fiasco of the 3rd ed. Chaos Codex. There is a better and far more positive example which was the last Dark Elf army book. That was how you go about making change.

UberBeast
20-01-2010, 17:22
Was wondering if anyone knew how to get in contact with Robin Cruddace, I would really like to send him a email and let him know about the stuff I dont like about the new nid codex. I don't wanna bitch or moan, just offer some advice. I am really not happy with the points cost on somethings and wanna know what he was thinking when he did the rules for the pyrovore, I would just like some justification for what was done. There is some amazing units in there and would be great to field, but at 150pts+ for good stuff, that seems very silly. I love the deathleaper rules but for his points I would field 3 lictors. The winged tyrant cost is just plain retarted and so is the tyrannofex, the tyrannofex I might pay if he had BS4.

Goodluck with that. GW has a long history of fouling things up and igoring them for years. Two rotten Dark Angel books in a row is a good example.