PDA

View Full Version : Where is all the Tyranid Love?



grg3d
07-01-2010, 14:41
Hi All, I have been playing Necrons for over 5 years….no new models no new codex and talk about getting nerfed…well you know

So I have been selling off all my Necrons to purchase the new Tyranids & Codex so I can have an up to date codex finally with some really cool looking models

When did it become what a model can do instead of Wow!!! That’s a cool model and I want it in my army?

Is that what 40K has turned into? My stat is better than your stat.
For Pete sake for all you nay sayers… don’t use cool looking models just use dice… how can it get more “fun” than that?

Where is all the Tyranid Love?

New models, new codex so they changed the rules so what…

It seems every time they update the core rules GW changes how things work
So….

Seeing how I don’t have the new Codex yet is their anything that has been changed for the “Good”?
As I’m really tired of only reading about the bad…or how they nerfed the army.

There’s got to be some good stuff happing to the Tyranids so please share it

Nuage
07-01-2010, 14:47
Err...

Welcome to Warseer ? :p

Of course there is some negativity out there. From what we can see, most of our existing armies just got trown out of the window. Changes can be a good or a bad thing - but when you have to shelve half a dozen carnifex and two tyrants, it's kinda hard to smile.

But there is good things in the new codex.
Some of the new sculpts are gorgeous. Trigons rocks. Hive Guard may even be overpowered. New synapses rules are cool. Plastic gargs ! And a lot more.

But still, to play an efficient Tyranid army, I will probably put back on the shelf my Carni & my Princes, where they'll be gathering dust between Apocalypse games, and I'll have to buy a lot of new models (according to what we know for the moment, of course).
There is a lot of loves for Tyranids :)

Nuage.

Grimmeth
07-01-2010, 14:48
The negative voices will always be heard louder than the positive ones - same with anything unfortunately. If you're going to take a Pyrovore because the model is awesome, damn the rules then more power to you!

Kriegfreak
07-01-2010, 14:55
Good question OP, not really sure. Guess its these forums mostly. I agree though.

LonelyPath
07-01-2010, 14:55
As Grimmeth said, the naysayers are always louder, but that's because they tend to really want to make their points and will repeat it across as many threads as possible. There is alot of hype for the codex, it's just hidden amongst all the "woe I'm nerfed" and "my fexes and tyrants aren't worth taking" comments. It's kinda sad to see, but it's true.

I for one am very excited about the new codex and looking forward to seeing what is what, how things work in the new edition and so forth. It's true I'll likely be disapointed by a few things, but on the whole it will be very fun to play and explore :)

loveless
07-01-2010, 15:03
I confess to building armies based on what looks awesome instead of what's effective. This has occasionally worked in my favor - I've long had a love for flamer/melta weapons and CC terminators, which have become quite effective in 5th edition :p

Now, I've no real knowledge of the new Tyranid rules in regards to points, strength, whatever. I do know that they have a ton of amazing-looking models I'd love to get my brush on.

Raveners, Trygon (Prime), Hive Guard, Tyrant Guard, Hive Tyrant, Warriors, Gargoyles, Lictors...

Okay, the only models I don't like are the Biovore and the metal Broodlord (I've the plastic one, though, so big deal).

Maybe it's different for new army players compared to veterans of an army. Maybe if I had been a Tyranid player I'd be annoyed, but for me the new stuff is all I notice. I think "Oh wow, that's cool looking" instead of thinking "Aww, but it used to do this instead!" Were I to play Tyranids with the new book, you can bet that I'd be using pretty much everything besides the Biovore that has a model - and converting a fair share of the rest. I'd be struggling to make the FOC work for me, I'm sure.

I don't know. I need to be proud of how my army looks on the table. I may use Vulkan for my Marines, but my typical list is far from optimized.

Ah, morning rambling...how I love it.

bluenova
07-01-2010, 15:08
Okay, the only models I don't like are the Biovore and the metal Broodlord (I've the plastic one, though, so big deal).

D'you mean the one from Space Hulk?

Sircyn
07-01-2010, 15:27
D'you mean the one from Space Hulk?

I assume so, mine is waiting for an excuse to be used too!

I have always had a pretty balanced niddy list, I just stopped using the poor guys towards the end of 4th. I'm looking forwards to have a load of my gaunts being more useful. I'm using the codex as an excuse to get the last of them painted before adding new units once new codex syndrome has settled down. I have two tyrants and four fexes which may be seeing less use, but I have hundreds of gaunts and a dozen warriors that may be cheering on the sidelines as they get ready for the call up.

Just wanted to say that I'm looking forwards to the nid release and have avoided rumour flogging and downloading pdf's. I can wait and I'll not have a major fit over the codex when it comes. You might see mostly whine threads because the people who are happy about the nids or who are just waiting to form their own opinion are likely less motivated to go on warseer to make a point of mentioning it, compared to those who feel grievance.

Creeping Dementia
07-01-2010, 15:32
The Tyranid love is... over here!!

I'm a big fan of the new Dex, and it almost makes me regret selling off my Nids last year, almost, I still like the Sisters I bought more. A new revamped Dex, great looking new models, whats so bad about all that.

I can only hope my two armies (Tau, Sisters) get the same quality treatment the Nids have gotten, even if it would require me buying some new models to stay competitive. But judging from all the complaints floating around I guess I'm a rarity because I actually enjoy buying and painting up awesome new models, (and modding up old models is fun too).

Another reason I think the new dex is great is because now they'll be able to be played the way I wish they could have over a year ago. I always wanted my Nids to have about 4-5 MCs, a good number of little guys, and 4-5 units of the medium sized ones (Warriors, Raveners, Zoans), but that just didn't work competitively like I wanted it to. So I sold them rather than go Nidzilla like everyone else. Nidzilla just never seemed right to me, I'm not a big fluff guy, but what happened to the Nids throwing gaunts at the opponent till they run out of ammunition? Its back, and I'm really looking forward to playing against it.

The Custodian
07-01-2010, 15:50
Mostly I'm ticked that I'm going from running 3 fexes and 2 tyrants (one winged) and some stealers backed by a hoarde of gaunts but now I can't see a reason to take a fex, take a winged tyrant (seems my FW one is going to be a harpy now), and stealers (which have no option for grenades!)... I know I'm whining but I was expecting many good things after what I saw from the IG dex... For those of you who don't play nids this book seems great but so far many of the nid players I know seem to fear the new dex..

I agree this one has some good points but aside from Zoans it seems they all require us to buy a new set of models...

Creeping Dementia
07-01-2010, 16:00
Mostly I'm ticked that I'm going from running 3 fexes and 2 tyrants (one winged) and some stealers backed by a hoarde of gaunts but now I can't see a reason to take a fex, take a winged tyrant (seems my FW one is going to be a harpy now), and stealers (which have no option for grenades!)... I know I'm whining but I was expecting many good things after what I saw from the IG dex... For those of you who don't play nids this book seems great but so far many of the nid players I know seem to fear the new dex..

I agree this one has some good points but aside from Zoans it seems they all require us to buy a new set of models...

I see your point, but by simply converting 2 fexes into Tervigons, throwing the last fex into a drop pod, and using the flyrant as a Harpy, you already have what you need for the solid core of an army. Add Death Leaper, some Zoans, and maybe a Trygon/Mawloc, and thats a great army without having to 'buy a new set of models'.

Tae
07-01-2010, 16:07
Err...

Welcome to Warseer ? :p

Correction:

Welcome to the Internet

The Custodian
07-01-2010, 16:15
Thing is the tervigon looks like it's going to be the staple of every list, and I rather don't like that, (childish I know)...

I'm more miffed by the loss of my fexes and how I need to get trygons... And convert some warriors into hive guard..

Ah well, at least I have a new fallback army which will never have drastic change (sm) and a xenos army to sate my alien needs (eldar)

I'll wait until I have the dex in hand but from the leaked copies I have I'm not impressed...

primarch16
07-01-2010, 16:24
I think they took nids in the right direction. It was tiresome seeing hordes of shooty carnifexes and hive tyrants backed up by stealers. Nids should be more gaunts than big creatures. Shame they made the trygon outclass the fex in such a way though, I can understand the upset there.

toddznidz
07-01-2010, 16:30
Maybe it is not "just whining", and the new Codex really does suck.

Advice. Start a Marine list, or just stick with your Necrons.

Rumor has it the Matt Ward is doing the Necron Codex. As long as it isn't Cruddace, you should be good to go.

Szafraniec
07-01-2010, 16:34
I still cannot understand the outrage and shock that GW released a dex that forces people to spend money on their products...theyre a for-profit company!

5th edition is the 'mech' edition to sell vehicles. Ill bet you next edition will have a ton of infantry and everyone will say 'well now my transports are useless, time to shelve my 6 chimeras' with shock and disdain.

If you expect it with each and every codex that you will have to buy new models, you can enjoy new dexes so much more. I really like the new Nid dex, so far. Lots of new monsters, all sorts of cool models, tons of excuses to kit-bash all sorts of hungry gribblies. Sure im dissapointed that fexes got nerfed some, at least in options, but at no point whatsoever did I think that the current Nidzilla lists would remain the strongest option. And its not like they suck now or are unplayable, those lists are still usable.

All those MCs, 2 kinds of genestealers, new SCs with some very creative rules...very cool.

toddznidz
07-01-2010, 16:34
I think they took nids in the right direction. It was tiresome seeing hordes of shooty carnifexes and hive tyrants backed up by stealers. Nids should be more gaunts than big creatures. Shame they made the trygon outclass the fex in such a way though, I can understand the upset there.

I take it you don't play Tyranids. Gaunts and little stuff got bigger nerfs than the Fexes.

You are going to see the same list form Nid players... They just aren't "Nids" anymore. Trygons and Tervigons. More MCs. Scoring MCs. Tougher MCs. So what you claim not to like about nids, just became more viable, and what you claim they should be pretty much has become impossible.

If by "right direction", you mean you Nid friend should just shut up and take his gaunts off the table while you blow the dog snot out of him, then I agree entirely.

toddznidz
07-01-2010, 16:41
All those MCs, 2 kinds of genestealers, new SCs with some very creative rules...very cool.

And no option for a frag grenade anywhere. It is all just sucker units. If anyone is thinking this is the list to jump on to be power-gamer of the year, they are going to be terribly dissappointed (and really bored having to move all those crapped out and useless gaunts).

Creative rules? I have yet to see an original idea from Cruddace. Everything is just stolen from Apoc or other codices.

the1stpip
07-01-2010, 16:47
Sorry to be cynical, but all thegood stuff from the last codex gets nerfed, so that you won't use it anymore, and you will be forced to buy all the new models with spanking new rules.

GW are a business, they have no concerns about making you buy an all new set for your army.

Whereas, when Dark Eldar, Necrons and Inq finally come out, the codexes will be overpowered, to ensure that the power gamers will all buy the latest stuff.

Dreachon
07-01-2010, 16:48
If you expect it with each and every codex that you will have to buy new models, you can enjoy new dexes so much more. I really like the new Nid dex, so far. Lots of new monsters, all sorts of cool models, tons of excuses to kit-bash all sorts of hungry gribblies. Sure im dissapointed that fexes got nerfed some, at least in options, but at no point whatsoever did I think that the current Nidzilla lists would remain the strongest option. And its not like they suck now or are unplayable, those lists are still usable.


Oh please don't pretend like us Nid players wouldn't know expect to buy new mdoels, we would have bought new models models anyway just for the look as the models are just stunning, everybody was gonna jump on the plastic gargoyles and the trygon.

The main outrage comes is that Cruddy deceided to take a sledgehammer appraoch to the codex and made many changes that were unneeded and make many players question on his intentions.

Vepr
07-01-2010, 16:55
I am kind of bummed they limited so many options and completely removed other biomorphs like the tail weapons etc. It also feels like the moved nids more towards guard and space marines with some of the changes.

Some things are new though like the life leach etc. I think nids are going to be able to build decent all comers lists now. After doing some play testing with the leaked dex the new nids do not seem weak but we still seem to get out horded by IG and Orks because even with buffs from the Tervigon and Tyrant etc our little guys are really still awful for anything other than cannon fodder. Nids do not seem to be on the same level as IG, SW, and Orks at the moment but I could be missing some things in translation etc. I have not seen the real dex yet. At least we have an MC and warriors for holding objectives now though.

mightymconeshot
07-01-2010, 16:56
I still cannot understand the outrage and shock that GW released a dex that forces people to spend money on their products...theyre a for-profit company!

5th edition is the 'mech' edition to sell vehicles. Ill bet you next edition will have a ton of infantry and everyone will say 'well now my transports are useless, time to shelve my 6 chimeras' with shock and disdain.

but at no point whatsoever did I think that the current Nidzilla lists would remain the strongest option. And its not like they suck now or are unplayable, those lists are still usable.



yeah and what have i had to buy for my space wolves since the new dex? that is right nothing and my space wolf army is just hitting 2000 if i max everything and i win most games with them. this is a pretty radical change even for games workshop. as to it being a mech edition i have yet to see it in my local stores.

nidzilla is going to be the strongest list. it isnt going to be the with 6 fexs but rather 5 tervigons and 3 trygons and insert random units to fill it out.

The Custodian
07-01-2010, 16:56
What I find interesting is this codex we don't hear the cries of OP this OP that while the people who play said codex defend it and try to justify the change, instead we see others who don't play the dex saying our list is balanced and good while those who play the army are fuming...

airmang
07-01-2010, 17:00
Where is all the Tyranid Love?


There’s got to be some good stuff happing to the Tyranids so please share it


Well i guess even a thread that is wanting positivity can't stop from getting some negativity too. :cries:

I personally like the new codex alot. Nids were my first army back in 2nd edition, and i'm glad to see that there are going to be other variations (besides Nidzilla) that can be created from this dex. I have seen the new dex in action a few times now, and i'm really starting to think that alot of the naysayers out there are basing their judgements just on the dex, and actually haven't played any games with it yet. Every single game i have watched, and Battle Reports i have read (or seen) online, have the Nid player saying many positive things about them. They are considerably different than what they were before, but no where from unplayable.

Alot of the complaints i see are very similar to some of the previous new dexes when they were released. I remember all the uproar when the Eldar dex came out, and the folks with Dark Reaper armies were ready to quit the game. i even remember some folks hating on the new Ork codex because they lost Choppas. Alot of folks just like to complain, and love to do it on forums, whereas many of the folks that enjoy the new dexes, and can't wait to try new things out just don't post as often. It's just how it is.

gorgon
07-01-2010, 17:15
I find it interesting that there seems to be so much more venom on this forum than on others regarding this particular codex.

It is a fairly radical departure from the old codex in spots, and I suspect players are having a hard time adjusting to new ways of thinking. However, I think that if even the loudest critics just play a game or two with the new codex -- trying some of the new stuff and not just setting themselves up for failure by expecting their old army to play the same way -- that they'll be pleasantly surprised.

And to be blunt -- unless you sold your soul to Nidzilla and Nidzilla only, I dunno what any vet is arguing about. The army as it was had become limited and stale. Cruddace blew it up, and IMO it was badly needed.

DeadlySquirrel
07-01-2010, 17:21
Good question OP.

But this is warseer, whining about the new 'dex is what we do =]

Creeping Dementia
07-01-2010, 17:21
What I find interesting is this codex we don't hear the cries of OP this OP that while the people who play said codex defend it and try to justify the change, instead we see others who don't play the dex saying our list is balanced and good while those who play the army are fuming...

Umm, really? My first responses to the Codex were whether or not I'd even be able to use my Tau now that the new Nids exist. MCs in drop pods, the best tank buster in the game with a longer range than MMs (Zoans) also in pods, Mawlocs ripping my suits to shreds without ever presenting a target, MCs as troops making more troops while giving FNP to unit around them, plenty of longer range shooting to keep my tanks from firing, Tau not having any psychic defence for all the crap that will be coming at us, more flying MCs, tons of warriors with good blast weaponry, spore mines to mess up deployments. Tau are already having some trouble, but I don't see how I can bring my Tau to a tourney once the new Nids start getting used. If you want I can start throwing in more posts about OP Nid builds if it'll make you feel better.

The reason you're not hearing repetitive posts complaining about all this stuff is we're outshouted by the Nidzilla players crying about Fexes and grenades, the same players that only use Fexes and Stealers currently. To be honest the amount of hysterical lashing out at shapes and colors is staggering. DE and Inq players I'm sure would love to have the amount of attention that Nids are getting, but Nid players can't see past 2 units enough to see that.

gorgon
07-01-2010, 17:26
To be honest the amount of hysterical lashing out at shapes and colors is staggering. DE and Inq players I'm sure would love to have the amount of attention that Nids are getting, but Nid players can't see past 2 units enough to see that.

SOME Nid players.

The rest of us are reading, writing army lists and cackling. ;)

The Custodian
07-01-2010, 17:26
Fair enough,

I'm waiting until I've had a few games first before final judgement but as some have said it's the fact that this army is very different from the last one takes some getting used to...

Creeping Dementia
07-01-2010, 17:31
And by the way, if Cruddace got chosen to do the Tau and Sisters Codeci, I'd be the happiest little toy soldier collecter you've ever seen.

Volrath
07-01-2010, 18:02
having played GW games for almost 2 decades, I can safely say i've seen change. Some good, some bad...but i ALWAYS LOVE when new dexes come out, especially when they have new rules and models and ways to change the game. It provides our game enviro doesn't get stale. Having not touched my nids in years, I can safely say I'm very very excited...same way I was when wolves came out....almost overnight I had 2 old armies spring back to life in a new way! different, yet still really fun!

I know alot of tourney players cry foul because they buy and maintain lists that are competitive...but most of the actual players out there just want to have fun, and I'm sure this new nid dex will do just that....the conversion possibilities are boggling my mind right now!!!

Lord Cook
07-01-2010, 18:56
When did it become what a model can do instead of Wow!!! That’s a cool model and I want it in my army?

Is that what 40K has turned into? My stat is better than your stat.
For Pete sake for all you nay sayers… don’t use cool looking models just use dice… how can it get more “fun” than that?

If one person's cool models can slaughter another person's cool models just because one side is arbitrarily more powerful than the other, where's the fun in that? :eyebrows:

Imagine a game of chess where the White Queen can only move two squares per turn (Queens can normally move an unlimited number of squares), but has a fantastic model. It doesn't matter how amazing the model is, the White player still has every reason to complain without being accused of "not having fun" or "just wanting to win".

Are the Tyranids weak? I haven't seen the Codex yet, so I shall not comment. But arguing that people who know the rules should stop complaining just because they have cool models is, to me, unreasonable.

Lord Zarkov
07-01-2010, 19:01
Imagine a game of chess where the White Queen can only move two squares per turn (Queens can normally move an unlimited number of squares), but has a fantastic model. It doesn't matter how amazing the model is, the White player still has every reason to complain without being accused of "not having fun" or "just wanting to win".


But that's ok because White are over powered anyway because they go first, infact it's not enough of a nerf for such a broken side! Bishops and Rooks should only move two squares as well! :D:eyebrows:

toddznidz
07-01-2010, 19:05
Umm, really? My first responses to the Codex were whether or not I'd even be able to use my Tau now that the new Nids exist. MCs in drop pods, the best tank buster in the game with a longer range than MMs (Zoans) also in pods, Mawlocs ripping my suits to shreds without ever presenting a target, MCs as troops making more troops while giving FNP to unit around them, plenty of longer range shooting to keep my tanks from firing, Tau not having any psychic defence for all the crap that will be coming at us, more flying MCs, tons of warriors with good blast weaponry, spore mines to mess up deployments. Tau are already having some trouble, but I don't see how I can bring my Tau to a tourney once the new Nids start getting used. If you want I can start throwing in more posts about OP Nid builds if it'll make you feel better.

The reason you're not hearing repetitive posts complaining about all this stuff is we're outshouted by the Nidzilla players crying about Fexes and grenades, the same players that only use Fexes and Stealers currently. To be honest the amount of hysterical lashing out at shapes and colors is staggering. DE and Inq players I'm sure would love to have the amount of attention that Nids are getting, but Nid players can't see past 2 units enough to see that.

As a 40K player, I am utterly outraged at the OP garbage that can be produced in the new Nid dex. By the way, you forgot to mention Hive Guard.

As a Tyranid player, I am utterly outraged that all "REAL" tyranids have been nerfed into oblivion. No fleet, no frags, not leaping tarpits, no armor, no EW, no benefit from Synapse (Fearless is actually a penalty in CC), more penalty for being out of Synapse, 12" Shadows, special rules for almost every unit that are already the subject of rules-lawyer controversy, etc. Overall, far FEWER choices in the metagame.

Call me a "whiner" if you want. And I'll call you a "Poo-poo-pee-pee-head" just so we are communicating on the same maturity level.

I am used to the nonsense that comes and goes with GW products, but IMO Robin Cruddace is bad for the game and should not be allowed to write another WH rule from now until the end of time.

If stating such on these forums is all I can do about it, then that is what I shall do.

de Selby
07-01-2010, 19:22
I'm still positive on the nid codex. Lots of new models come with it and the changes to instinctive behaviour sound good.

I'll be able to build a decent list using the new models I was going to buy anyway (not tournament, just functional). Most of my existing stuff has been nerfed whether it needed it or not, and some of it has been reduced to counts-as (which is the only thing that really annoys me, particularly if it's options that ~still~ come in the kit). But c'est la vie.

grg3d
07-01-2010, 19:47
So I guess not to many positives for the New Tyranids :eek:

I would have liked to seen the following figures come out in plastic though

Hive Tyrant
Lictor
Zonethrope


With all kinds of options that would have been cool except they would still suck :rolleyes:

It’s kind of sad from reading this and other post…

It seems if one model can't destroy your opponent’s entire army by itself it sucks and if it can...it’s too over powered :angel:

Panzer MkIV
07-01-2010, 20:16
Where is all the Tyranid Love, you asked?

Mine died last night when I read the leaked PDF file:cries:

My mixed 1500pts army of MC, middle-weights and gaunts got a serious hit with the nerfbat in terms of either points, mobility, ranged power or all three.
Of the new units some seem borderline OP (Hive Guard, Trygon), others a waste of ink (Pyrovore, Harpy, Tyranofex)

If you like the new codex, fine: more power to you.

Even though the 4th edition codex had it issues, Carnifex spam was one of them, I'll ask my friends to let me play with the old rules.
At least my Salamander and Ork army, which I started during 3rd edtion, still have recent armybooks with many fun and viable builds.

The new Tyranid codex reads to me like the 3rd edition Elder codex: one half is chaf and the other half are must-haves and I despise such terrible balance.

Shadowfax
07-01-2010, 20:29
At this point I'm mainly just interested in having a new book to use.

I don't why so many of you need to come down either entirely in favour of the new rules or entirely against them, though. Can't we just admit the possibility that the final product may consist of some great rules alongside some colossally stupid blunders?

de Selby
07-01-2010, 20:49
Can't we just admit the possibility that the final product may consist of some great rules alongside some colossally stupid blunders?

I'd be quite ready to go along with that (provisionally, because I haven't even held the product in my hands yet).

CapnBob
07-01-2010, 21:12
At this point I'm mainly just interested in having a new book to use.

I don't why so many of you need to come down either entirely in favour of the new rules or entirely against them, though. Can't we just admit the possibility that the final product may consist of some great rules alongside some colossally stupid blunders?

With the exception of maybe the zoanthropes, it seems like the split between great rules and colossally stupid blunders follows the same split between new models and old models. I can't afford the new stuff, so I'll probably have to either stick with 4th edition or see if my opponents will agree to house rule some of the stupid away.

Shadowfax
07-01-2010, 21:28
Can't you just proxy stuff for a while?

If you have opponents that will allow you to use outdated rules or even homebrew rules I'd assume they're alright with some proxy fun.

Of course, that probably won't work if you're an example of a "die hard nidzilla dude" who doesn't own anything but TMCs and 'stealers, but I have to agree with the people who've said that the hardcores got what was coming to them. Live by the fex, die by the fex.

toddznidz
07-01-2010, 21:57
Can't we just admit the possibility that the final product may consist of some great rules alongside some colossally stupid blunders?

If by "great rules", you mean OP, then I can agree.

But in my book, OP = terrible, even if it is "my" army that gets it.

Neffertech
07-01-2010, 22:12
I'm just waiting, I read the german PDF now I'm waiting on my English version.

There are some head scratchers but I'll be fine with these new rules.

CapnBob
07-01-2010, 22:17
Can't you just proxy stuff for a while?

If you have opponents that will allow you to use outdated rules or even homebrew rules I'd assume they're alright with some proxy fun.

Of course, that probably won't work if you're an example of a "die hard nidzilla dude" who doesn't own anything but TMCs and 'stealers, but I have to agree with the people who've said that the hardcores got what was coming to them. Live by the fex, die by the fex.

Yeaaaaah... no. I almost never use more than 2 carnifexes. I just hate how this edition throws away things that have worked since 2nd edition for no good reason and haven't fixed new problems that have come up.

Hormagaunts especially, which I have been using extensively since the models first came out in 2nd edition, do not exist as an option anymore. The weapon skill has dropped and there's no leaping, and the extra initiative is pointless since they can't get assault grenade equivalents. These are now 3rd edition scythegaunts, not even close to the same thing.

I could live with most of the changes to the carnifex except for the loss of any option for increased armor (even at a high price), which they have had since 2nd edition. That's just pointless.

They did not fix the fact that fearless is a liability now in close combat. It's not really acceptable to have to keep synapse creatures away to avoid taking double wounds in close combat.

I've been going through the rule changes with my tau and chaos players, and they've been fairly unsatisfied with how the flavor has changed as well. We may just end up house-ruling an entirely new codex, then play-test it and make it available online.

Shebnar
07-01-2010, 22:20
And by the way, if Cruddace got chosen to do the Tau and Sisters Codeci, I'd be the happiest little toy soldier collecter you've ever seen.

:)
First of all I hope he can rework Chaos in all its aspects (Legions, Undivided, Daemons and L&D). His support is badly needed, Chaos is a shameful bore to play, and IMHO Mr Cruddace wrote down the two coolest codecii in 5th edition (IG and Tyr).

And yes, Tyr have been very cleverly reworked, so I invite the author of this Topic to buy a Codex, create a list for himself and ignore older players' whinings.

By the way, last night we made a IG vs Tyr game that has been one of the funniest of our wargaming careers: Tyr won by slight edge, but the match was close, and both gamers had their chances to turn the tide of the battle. In 4th edition - with the old codecii - IG would have been probably wiped away from the table in the first 3 turns.

Another thing: in the new Tyr codex the fluffy choices (i.e. 'units for losers') are less than you may think. Anyway it is true that is very difficult creating an outstanding list, but by no way it means that you are doomed to lose your games everytime. Just make your list carefully, and victories will follow ;)

My 2 cents (and a bit of gaming experience)

zoggin-eck
07-01-2010, 22:22
Again, in response to the original post, I think it's more of a forum thing.

Take a look at the Modelling and painting section and you'll feel better :)

Vepr
07-01-2010, 22:33
I think nids are going to be alright they are just a very different army now. I think many people were expecting great things after the IG and SW codices and ended up getting unknown new units and changes to old units that appeared to be nerfs with point increases to rub salt in the wounds. I think we almost have to approach this dex like nids did not exist before, it is that big of a change across the board. I am not sure if it is going to be a good or bad thing yet we will have to see.

Demkaio
07-01-2010, 22:34
As a Nid player since 3rd, I can honestly say I am looking forward to the new codex.
I love my 'stealers, no "frags"? fine, i am still going to use my aggressive gribblies, with the added broodlord goodness.
I played the swarm aspect, I only have 1 fex, so I'm not bothered with the increase in points for the fex.
Cheaper gaunts? beautiful! previously i used hormagaunts all the time, and most likely will continue to do so.

druchii
07-01-2010, 22:40
Hi All, I have been playing Necrons for over 5 years….no new models no new codex and talk about getting nerfed…well you know

So I have been selling off all my Necrons to purchase the new Tyranids & Codex so I can have an up to date codex finally with some really cool looking models

When did it become what a model can do instead of Wow!!! That’s a cool model and I want it in my army?

Is that what 40K has turned into? My stat is better than your stat.
For Pete sake for all you nay sayers… don’t use cool looking models just use dice… how can it get more “fun” than that?

Where is all the Tyranid Love?

New models, new codex so they changed the rules so what…

It seems every time they update the core rules GW changes how things work
So….

Seeing how I don’t have the new Codex yet is their anything that has been changed for the “Good”?
As I’m really tired of only reading about the bad…or how they nerfed the army.

There’s got to be some good stuff happing to the Tyranids so please share it

Murphey stole it all. He's the grinch of tyranids. The Grinchinid. Or the Tyranagrinch.

Seriously, I'm not sure. People have been overreacting for decades and the 'nid book is no news. Remember how many whine threads there were about the new Space Wolves?

Like everything, people will pipe down after they play with/against the book a bit.

I mean we can already see people whining about the Beastmen in fantasy. I'm hoping they'll steal some of the crybabies away from the 40k forums for a bit.

d

Max Jet
07-01-2010, 23:27
I can say just one thing although there are a lot of valid points that deserve my deepest respect in this thread.

When I am paying such an audacios price for 3 plastic sprues I expect a little bit more than just a cool model.

Caanos
08-01-2010, 00:52
Lack of assault grenades is disheartening for a CC army like 'Nids, and begs explanation. I mean, pretty much every other army either has them for free or can buy them. Seems pretty crappy to me.

My other problem is the lack of invul saves for any of our HQ or monsterous creatures. I think we're the only codex that doesn't have an HQ that can't get an invul save.

Vepr
08-01-2010, 01:20
Lack of assault grenades is disheartening for a CC army like 'Nids, and begs explanation. I mean, pretty much every other army either has them for free or can buy them. Seems pretty crappy to me.

My other problem is the lack of invul saves for any of our HQ or monsterous creatures. I think we're the only codex that doesn't have an HQ that can't get an invul save.

The Swarmlord has a 4+ in CC. But I agree with no HQ having EW or normal invul saves it is the point costs on our HQ's seems a little steep. I guess they thought they would replace it with regeneration but I don't think that is nearly as good especially when we have to pay more just to get regen.

Putty
08-01-2010, 04:21
personally, all carnidzilla players saw the nerf coming.

4 - 6 carnifexes was the norm, now with the fex point hike, you'd probably won't even see more than 2 in competitive lists. the heavy support slots will be dominated by the trygon and its variants.

but it is okay, i'll wait 4 - 10 years for carnifexes to make a comeback. :D

vladsimpaler
08-01-2010, 04:36
:)
First of all I hope he can rework Chaos in all its aspects (Legions, Undivided, Daemons and L&D). His support is badly needed, Chaos is a shameful bore to play, and IMHO Mr Cruddace wrote down the two coolest codecii in 5th edition (IG and Tyr).


Aw, hell no. Hell no.

Cruddace ripped the heart and soul out of the IG and now the Tyranids. What little is left of Chaos and how cool it used to be is now in Codex: Space Marines Gone Bad and all of its crappiness.

But on the bright side, the codex is as un-Chaosy as you can get, anything Cruddace does will be an improvement.

None of the designers really deserve to re-write Chaos. Phil Kelly sucks and makes everything OP, Mat Ward is a SM blowhard and will make CSM suck more, Robin will just change -everything- and Jervis? Nevermind.

Rick Priestley needs to write it and hire back Bryan Ansell to make sure that it's good, for goodness sake.:cries:

Putty
08-01-2010, 04:41
Cruddace ripped the heart and soul out of the IG and now the Tyranids. What little is left of Chaos and how cool it used to be is now in Codex: Space Marines Gone Bad and all of its crappiness.

Uhh... what is the "heart and soul" of IG? :confused:

vladsimpaler
08-01-2010, 04:53
Uhh... what is the "heart and soul" of IG? :confused:

The stuff that made the army enjoyable to play with.

Flavor.

252nd Fire Dragoon
08-01-2010, 05:14
Aloha,
Haha thats a good one. I almost thought you were serious when you said Imperial Guard weren't enjoyable to play. In all seriousness, I have to disagree with your statement. IG have gotten to be great, far better and far more people playing and using them, and enjoying them. True, some units are wtf (Stormtroopers) But I predict the TY codex will be the same. Whining when it first comes out then realizing that it's actually not bad, apart from some units (stormtrooper incidents).

vladsimpaler
08-01-2010, 05:44
Aloha,
Haha thats a good one. I almost thought you were serious when you said Imperial Guard weren't enjoyable to play. In all seriousness, I have to disagree with your statement. IG have gotten to be great, far better and far more people playing and using them, and enjoying them. True, some units are wtf (Stormtroopers) But I predict the TY codex will be the same. Whining when it first comes out then realizing that it's actually not bad, apart from some units (stormtrooper incidents).

The IG are much better but are less fun to play with. So if you like winning, go ahead. I play casually and I quit using them after like 6 games, it was like all the fun was drained out.

Vineas
08-01-2010, 06:00
As a 40K player, I am utterly outraged at the OP garbage that can be produced in the new Nid dex. By the way, you forgot to mention Hive Guard.

As a Tyranid player, I am utterly outraged that all "REAL" tyranids have been nerfed into oblivion. No fleet, no frags, not leaping tarpits, no armor, no EW, no benefit from Synapse (Fearless is actually a penalty in CC), more penalty for being out of Synapse, 12" Shadows, special rules for almost every unit that are already the subject of rules-lawyer controversy, etc. Overall, far FEWER choices in the metagame.

Call me a "whiner" if you want. And I'll call you a "Poo-poo-pee-pee-head" just so we are communicating on the same maturity level.

I am used to the nonsense that comes and goes with GW products, but IMO Robin Cruddace is bad for the game and should not be allowed to write another WH rule from now until the end of time.

If stating such on these forums is all I can do about it, then that is what I shall do.

I see more good than bad coming from this codex and I intend to use units not deemed "worthy" by Warseer and win with my army.

Warseer and every other 40k site has deemed Ogryns not worthy and they have made their points back in every single game every time they are taken, NO exceptions.

Before knee jerking yourself into a torn acl why not actually you know try playing a game with the new 'Nids (actually try about 10 so you can get a more fair test group) and I bet you'll win as many as you did before.

If you can't well then I don't think it's the fault of the codex, now is it? ;):D

Putty
08-01-2010, 06:06
The stuff that made the army enjoyable to play with.

Flavor.

And what is IG's "Flavor"?

Voss
08-01-2010, 06:21
Where is all the Tyranid Love?


Its at my local store. The preview copy showed up today, and there was a collective look at it. The general feeling was that it was good to the point of being overpowered.

There are a lot of good builds in this new book. Some are frightening. There are a few stinkers (like the heavy flamer phallus), but it has more tank hunting, a lot of shooting, a lot of close combat and throws other monstrous creatures around like a dog shaking a squirrel. Actually the small buggers are the better monstrous creature hunters so its more like squirrels ganging up and killing a mastiff.

A few things cost more, but have increased abilities as well. And a lot of things that weren't useful before are cheaper and better. If anything is wrong with this book, its that its too good. The Cruddace armies are well suited to fighting each other, and some (not all, but some) armies just can't compete in the new environment.

Vineas
08-01-2010, 07:31
IG flavor IMO is about lots of boots and tanks. The new IG can do the tank thing better than the old and can have more boots on the ground if you want.

I still don't see anything OP. I think codex creep is less prevalent than in 3rd and 4th ed. Not saying it's not their but I remember how the cries of SW being broken beyond the point of no fun to play against panned out. They are a hard as nails army but compared to Orks and Vanilla Marines and IG not really all that spectacular except for maybe a few standout units (and every codex has one or 2 of those).

Shadowfax
08-01-2010, 07:47
Its at my local store. The preview copy showed up today, and there was a collective look at it. The general feeling was that it was good to the point of being overpowered.

There are a lot of good builds in this new book. Some are frightening.

A few things cost more, but have increased abilities as well. And a lot of things that weren't useful before are cheaper and better. If anything is wrong with this book, its that its too good.
Haha?

This is even more kneejerky than the yelps from the sky-is-falling crowd.

I mean, you clearly haven't digested the points requirements accurately yet, for starters.

TheShadowCow
08-01-2010, 10:29
Haha?

This is even more kneejerky than the yelps from the sky-is-falling crowd.

I mean, you clearly haven't digested the points requirements accurately yet, for starters.

Or you haven't digested what the lists are capable of now, despite the points?

Play games before writing it off one way or another.

Lord Cook
08-01-2010, 15:03
The IG are much better but are less fun to play with. So if you like winning, go ahead. I play casually and I quit using them after like 6 games, it was like all the fun was drained out.

Speak for yourself. The Imperial Guard has far more viable units than it did before, and some great new additions in the form of orders. While it has less options (specifically doctrines), you're forgetting the fact that most of them were overcosted or poorly thought out. I find the new Imperial Guard to have more viable variety, not less. Were there some ridiculous decisions made? Yes. More than the previous codex? Don't make me laugh.

Voss
08-01-2010, 15:11
Haha?

This is even more kneejerky than the yelps from the sky-is-falling crowd.

I mean, you clearly haven't digested the points requirements accurately yet, for starters.

Thats an interesting assumption. There are a lot of rather good things (or in the case of the Horror- ridiculously disgusting things) that are rather cheap. Part of it is that some of the rumours were not entirely accurate, but reading it, there is very little that is truly overcosted.

At 1500 points you can put 8-12 distinct threats on the board- units or MCs that the opponent can't safely ignore because they're effective in CC, shooting or both. Plus a few little things that will help the effectiveness or your army in one way or another. Quite a few codexes will find themselves overwhelmed, unable to deal with enough of the threats before they're eaten.

azimaith
08-01-2010, 15:17
When did it become what a model can do instead of Wow!!! That’s a cool model and I want it in my army?

Um, since the objective of the game was based on winning and since GW made some butt ugly models (I'm sorry biovore, but you just don't cut it still.)



Is that what 40K has turned into? My stat is better than your stat.
For Pete sake for all you nay sayers… don’t use cool looking models just use dice… how can it get more “fun” than that?

40k is a competitive game and some of us like planning our armies and strategies rather than drooling over something shiny. If we just cared about looks we could buy action figures and flail them around screaming "Pew pew."



Where is all the Tyranid Love?

New models, new codex so they changed the rules so what…

It seems every time they update the core rules GW changes how things work
So….

The thing you're missing is that its mostly for the better. The new codex has been met with irritation because a lot of the changes *appeared* to ignore the problems that crept up in 5th ed or fixed problems but utilized a ten pound sledgehammer.

Synapse causes units to be fearless and gaunt still have dumpy leadership which leads most people to fear they'll still be torn apart by no-retreat rolls to the point of being useless point sinks rather than effective units. This was the biggest problem afflicting swarm armies in 5th and its *appears* just as prevalent in the new dex.

Units that relied on eternal warrior due to their high value status now have lost said rule and instead gained an extra wound. An extra wound does not change instant death and a 3 wound warrior eating a krak missile is just as dead a 45 wound warrior eating a krak missile. This makes it *appear* that instead of going a route that would solve both problems (overuse of EW and Instant Death issues with medium nids) such as toughness 5 base, they instead blindly ignored it.

Then we have Nidzilla, which was problematic because it *appeared* to be overpowered. As such they basically doubled the base price of a carnifex and added in some benefits (A initiative only Furious charge, 2 more attacks, BS3, scything talons base). Unfortunately this also means the "fix" is very blunt object, your additional BS doesn't mean a damn thing if you're not shooting and your scything talons base doesn't help if you want to change the weapon anyhow. Thus it *appears* carnifex are overnerfed by a 100% point increase for less than its worth in upgrades.

In fact, many tyranid players, myself included, felt upon reading the first rumors the codex was mostly based around selling trygons by making them head over heels the better than the closest units in said spot as well as adding in models that required trygon parts to make (Tervigons for example).

You'll note i've highlighted the word *appeared* throughout the whole post. That's because that's exactly what it is. Appearances. How can anyone tell if no-retreat is going to be an issue without knowing in detail, the upgrades, costs, and synergies a gaunt will have? Same with eternal warrior and carnifex. Current gaunt stats and costs transposed directly into new synapse would result in the same crappy performance as they have now however cheaper gaunts with upgrades that make them more deadly in close combat close the wound gap between the nid player and his opponent. If a hormagaunt always wounds on a 4+ and has furious charge he will not just hit marines on 4s and wound on 4's on the charge, but rather hit on 4+s, re-roll any ones, and wound on 4+s, re-rolling any failed wounds. The difference in the wound gap here is *astounding* and combined with cheaper costs its even more obvious that initial *appearances* can be deceiving.

For you number lovers out there:
20 hormagaunts with toxins and adrenals on marines on the charge is:
60 attacks, 30 hits, plus 2 hits from re-rolls with 16 wounds+8 extra wounds from re-rolls resulting in a total of 24 wounds, that's about *8* dead marines before they can even strike back. Considering you can also give said hormagaunts synergy with other units providing things like preferred enemy (re-roll all failed hits instead of just 1s, this would change 8 dead to about 11.) Suddenly the issue with "No Retreat" seems far less applicable compared to an issue with overkill! Add in hormagaunts being half the price they are currently and suddenly the doom and gloom seems a lot less prevalent.

Just for kicks, look at those same nids against Storm Shield Termies:
60 attacks, 30 hits+2 from re-rolls, 16 wounds+8 from re-rolls resulting in 24 wounds. 4 dead terminators before they can even strike. (Remember with a higher base initiative and furious charge your hitting at init 6, you could even use these guys to trounce enemy genestealers.

Lets go to our next issue, Tyranid Warriors/Raveners/Zoanthropes without EW.
For one every mid size nid is now 3 wounds. Unless every medium nid you ever lost was from a krak missile or the equivalent the benefit is obvious. Warriors are also listed as having a 4+ base save which improves their ability to withstand small arms drastically, especially when you consider you can still have flying warriors. Add in a 3+ invulnerable save for zoanthropes, an increased BS, and a better set of shooting attacks and its looking better already. Raveners *appear* to have remained similar save for the extra wound, scything talons re-rolls, and better thorax weaponry. If you found them worthwhile before, why not now?

And of course the carnifex.
Yes its more expensive, its also more versatile (whether you like it or not!) With the new statline no matter what guns you give it (and many are better than before) it will *always* come with 4 attacks, meaning after stunning a tank it has a very good chance of ripping it to tiny little bits. Even dreadnoughts will need to fear a gunfex. Add in the ability to drop them from spore pods right up next to the enemy lines and you solve an issue with sucking up fire for several turns (as long as you drop them while other support engages the enemy too, naturally.)

So far nothing in the tyranid codex has struck most of us as overtly "wtf powerful" like say, Jaws of the World Wolf or Lash of Submission but the devils in the details. As with every codex release there's bound to be some steaming piles (I'm guessing the pyrovore) and hidden gems (rumors of spore mines deploying in enemy deployment zones and having large blasts!) Without reliable points costs and listed rules determining the full extent of a codex is going to be impossible.



Seeing how I don’t have the new Codex yet is their anything that has been changed for the “Good”?
As I’m really tired of only reading about the bad…or how they nerfed the army.

There’s got to be some good stuff happing to the Tyranids so please share it
Good stuff, bad stuff, the more things change the more they stay the same. A number of tyranid units seem to show great promise though the codex appears to only have one unit that the great and all knowing oracle of "forum consensus" seems to have named its golden child, the trygon.

Its all going to be determined by points cost in the end. I don't see tyranids having any real issue with troops choices as gaunts, gargoyles, and genestealers (of both varieties) seem more than capable of ripping them to tiny little bits for a bargain price. Tanks seem to be a problem still (like that's ever going to change) but rumors on tyranid weapons show they have a good set of tank cracking guns as well as fast moving monsters. Add in hive guard to deal with lighter transports and the codex appears to be shaping up well.

Once again, its all based on costs.

Lord Cook
08-01-2010, 15:35
Azimaith speaks, and sanity returns to us. I am slightly more concerned about certain units for one reason or another, but on the whole I agree. Bring on the 16th!

Voss
08-01-2010, 15:45
The Horror of <whatever> does come across as WTF powerful. Everything in 6" Leadership checks on 3d6, and takes wounds equal to the amount they failed by. Then it gains wounds equal to the amount inflicted, which also increases its strength (and the strength of its large blast AP1 psychic attack). And this happens at the start of every shooting phase (including, as specifically mentioned in the book) the enemy phase.

So its going to show up, smack a bunch of enemy units around once (and probably get its power off) before they can even react to it. And then you either have to take more wounds on your turn, or move away leaving a giant hole in your lines.

And it can take a spore pod, and it is less than 100 points (so podding it in is less than 150).


But other than that azimaith, good post.

Vepr
08-01-2010, 15:51
I think nids are going to be alright. This codex is just a big change and due to that it gave most of us a bit of a system shock. I really think the key to nids is taking a balanced force with a range of small, mid and big bugs. Tyranids should be able to put together solid all comers lists.

Vepr
08-01-2010, 15:55
The Horror of <whatever> does come across as WTF powerful. Everything in 6" Leadership checks on 3d6, and takes wounds equal to the amount they failed by. Then it gains wounds equal to the amount inflicted, which also increases its strength (and the strength of its large blast AP1 psychic attack). And this happens at the start of every shooting phase (including, as specifically mentioned in the book) the enemy phase.

So its going to show up, smack a bunch of enemy units around once (and probably get its power off) before they can even react to it. And then you either have to take more wounds on your turn, or move away leaving a giant hole in your lines.

And it can take a spore pod, and it is less than 100 points (so podding it in is less than 150).


But other than that azimaith, good post.

The horror seems like fun for everyone involved. ;) If it was more durable it would be broken but I am guessing he will be a one use sort of annoyance. Probably making back his points in death, destruction, and distraction but then going poof to concentrated fire.

The Custodian
08-01-2010, 15:55
Azimuth nailed it,

After playing the actual dex I have to say thing like the T4 warrior is not that bad, worst comes to worst just shove an alpha with them to soak up the occasional wound.

I once was doom and gloom but actualy playing the book makes huge differences...

Abaddonshand
08-01-2010, 16:08
The Horror of <whatever> does come across as WTF powerful. Everything in 6" Leadership checks on 3d6, and takes wounds equal to the amount they failed by. Then it gains wounds equal to the amount inflicted, which also increases its strength (and the strength of its large blast AP1 psychic attack). And this happens at the start of every shooting phase (including, as specifically mentioned in the book) the enemy phase.

So its going to show up, smack a bunch of enemy units around once (and probably get its power off) before they can even react to it. And then you either have to take more wounds on your turn, or move away leaving a giant hole in your lines.

And it can take a spore pod, and it is less than 100 points (so podding it in is less than 150).


But other than that azimaith, good post.

Quote for Truth.

Voss
08-01-2010, 16:10
The horror seems like fun for everyone involved. ;) If it was more durable it would be broken but I am guessing he will be a one use sort of annoyance. Probably making back his points in death, destruction, and distraction but then going poof to concentrated fire.

That and the 3+ invulnerable save means that sometimes it will be a major distraction that manages to live for another go. But yeah, mostly it is just going to take a few heavy weapons away from shooting at the other threats in the army. Which is a major benefit in and of itself.


Honestly what keeps it for being really broken is his ability just happens at the start of the shooting phase, before multiple broodlords can drop LD in the same general area. Though they can do that for the hive tyrant's powers...

Psychic defense is a truly good thing to have against the tyranid army.

azimaith
08-01-2010, 16:13
Azimuth nailed it,

After playing the actual dex I have to say thing like the T4 warrior is not that bad, worst comes to worst just shove an alpha with them to soak up the occasional wound.

I once was doom and gloom but actualy playing the book makes huge differences...
Part of the initial groaning about EW loss appears to stem from "Balanced army syndrome" which means in the realm of the interweb any time anyone ever talks about a unit someone has to bring up the "balanced army" that will inevitably consist of hordes of squads perfectly suited to destroying said discussed unit which inevitably is put up against this "balanced army" entirely alone.

IE:
"Tyranid warriors are worthless without EW because of meltaguns. Any balanced army would have enough meltaguns to wipe them out in a single turn." (Note the conspicuous lack of an actual army with said tyranid warriors against said meltagun army.)

I can't remember the last time my tyranid warriors were destroyed exclusively with strength 8 AP4 or better weapons. I can remember the last time they were eaten alive by heavy bolters, heavy flamers, bolters, combined lasguns+plasma/melta, pulse rifles, flamers, so on and so forth.

The Custodian
08-01-2010, 16:34
And if the enemy is close enough to use a meltagun he's close enough to chomp on... Unless for some reason your warriors are running around alone... (as you said)

EW spoiled us, we could run around with multiwound models never having to worry about real damage aside from massed fire, now we actually have to think of how to protect he warriors, be it a screen or an alpha warrior...

grg3d
08-01-2010, 16:46
Thanks Azimaith,

I don't think it was me who was missing "it" that it was mostly for the better.
I have not played as the Tyranids or faced them (mostly IG or SM VS my Necrons) and I'm looking forward to playing them as I don't compete at turneys...just happy to play once in a while.

Your post and a few others was the kind of nformation that I was looking for :) without all the;

"The Tyranid Army got Nerfed"
"The gutted the Tyranids and my way of playing"
"Non of my figures can be used now.. curse GW"

To me it sounds like the Tyranid will still have a chance at holding their own against all the other "nerfed" armys :p

toddznidz
08-01-2010, 17:00
Did NOBODY read the battle report in January WD. Even with FREE WoN on ALL troops (including Warriors), Cruddace couldn't keep ANY troops (including Warriors) on the table.

Gaunts of ALL forms did nothing but die.

The Fex ran around like a chicken after the LR, finally was able to catch a building and REALLY destroy it, then died.

After Matt Ward finally remembered to kill the Venomthropes FIRST, he annihilated Cruddace.

Do all the mathhammer you want, but the ONLY thing in the list that could deal with Assault Termies were the Trygon and Mawloc. The ONLY other unit that survivied was the 340 point Tyrant and Guard unit that did pretty much nothing but "destroy a building".

Sure, it was a Vulcan list with a free command squad. But he was also saddled with almost 400 points worth Damn Legionaires. The amount of troops Cruddace was allowed to bring back was at least twice as many point as the command squad. Even with a jerry-rigged scenario, Cruddace LOST... mostly due to the traditional tyranids SUCKING.

Mathhammer how great hormies are against MEQ all you want. Any SM player that doesn't leave his marine in his rhinos or at the very least just STANDS IN COVER deserves to lose. How many glancing hits do 20 hormagaunts do to AV10? How many of twenty hormagaunts are left after 1 round of bolter fire, another round of rapid bolter fire (and a flamer), and then striking last (since they have no options for frag grenades), and then taking extra wounds for losing combat?

Azimaith can put as much make-up on this pig as he wants. It is still a pig.

Tervigon\Hive Guard\Mawloc... all OP which I don't like as a 40K player. All old Nids, beaten into submission with a nerf bat.

azimaith
08-01-2010, 17:42
Did NOBODY read the battle report in January WD. Even with FREE WoN on ALL troops (including Warriors), Cruddace couldn't keep ANY troops (including Warriors) on the table.

Gaunts of ALL forms did nothing but die.

I've read many battle reports and i've never once been impressed by the players tactical acumen or their mission choices. Who doesn't remember the battle with the tau vs the dark eldar where the DE decided it was best to stand around outside of cover and exchange fire with the tau at range.

He deployed his 31 or so gaunts on the left side of the board with only 3 tyranid warriors against a terminator assault squad, a five man command squad, and two land speeders!

80 points+80 points+90 points= 250 points vs 50 points+60 points+free command squad+200 points=310 points.

So he throws 250 points of light infantry at 310 points of heavy infantry with anti-infantry firepower and somehow you're surprised? Even then he suffered 2 warrior casualties and 15 hormagaunts. Next turn enemy scouts jump out of the storm and the two land speeders wipe out his two warriors and he stupidly keeps his tyranids separated and tries to drop a giant flock of gargoyles from deep strike (why!) right near a dreadnought. How is any of this surprising. Next turn he goes on to piddly little units of hormagaunts into legion of the damned practically on their own. Even then the board is still swarming with termagaunts. This goes on for 6 turns and even then the board is still crawling with some 30 gaunts.



The Fex ran around like a chicken after the LR, finally was able to catch a building and REALLY destroy it, then died.

If only he had some sort of fast moving monstrous creature, perhaps one with wings. It would be a king among tyranids for chasing down pesky vehicle, a tyrant even!



After Matt Ward finally remembered to kill the Venomthropes FIRST, he annihilated Cruddace.

I see, i'm having a hard time understanding how a difference of one kill point (Kill points!) victory over a tyranid army counts as "annihilated."



Do all the mathhammer you want, but the ONLY thing in the list that could deal with Assault Termies were the Trygon and Mawloc. The ONLY other unit that survivied was the 340 point Tyrant and Guard unit that did pretty much nothing but "destroy a building".
]
Why in the world would *80 points* of hormagaunts wipe out 200 points of assault terminators, especially in one turn? During the entire battle they barely battled anything before the trygon. Why do you expect 340 points of a tyrant squad to do much more than destroy a building when your first course of action is to set it up as far from the bulk of your forces as you can while still remaining on the same board edge and then trundle him away from the fight?

If you don't like probability and instead want to base your reality on a single battle report not using standard missions and with an army list that would make most players gouge their eyes out then be my guest.



Sure, it was a Vulcan list with a free command squad. But he was also saddled with almost 400 points worth Damn Legionaires. The amount of troops Cruddace was allowed to bring back was at least twice as many point as the command squad. Even with a jerry-rigged scenario, Cruddace LOST... mostly due to the traditional tyranids SUCKING.

You act like legion of the damned is somehow *bad*. Especially when they come in a game against tyranids with a power weapon, flamer, and heavy flamer. Legion works fine in a list designed to use them or in a list where they pack weapons perfectly suited for destroying your army.



Mathhammer how great hormies are against MEQ all you want. Any SM player that doesn't leave his marine in his rhinos or at the very least just STANDS IN COVER deserves to lose.

Of course, the way to win is to never leave your rhino and use the 200 points of marines as a glorified storm bolter?



How many glancing hits do 20 hormagaunts do to AV10?

5, if it moves.



How many of twenty hormagaunts are left after 1 round of bolter fire, another round of rapid bolter fire (and a flamer), and then striking last (since they have no options for frag grenades), and then taking extra wounds for losing combat?
Why are my hormagaunts standing around for two full turns of shooting and why are there only 20 of them. 20 getting to combat does not equal 20 being deployed, any tyranid player knows this. If for some reason you decide to let these marines who are staying in their rhino shoot at you at 13", then shoot at you at 12" then what do you want me to say? If they're staying in their rhino they get one chance to gun you down at rapid fire range. 20 shots, 8 wounds, assuming no cover saves and so on, 12 hormagaunts survive rapid fire. 36 attacks, 18 hits+1 extra from re-rolls, 9 or so wounds+4-5=13 or so total wounds. 4 dead marines for a fraction of their cost+their rhino. Put them in cover and you just add in 11 attacks, 4 more dead. Now its 24 attacks, 12 hits+1 from re-rolls, 6 wounds+3 wounds from re-rolls=3 dead marines.

And that's all a fraction of the cost and rounding against the tyranids.

So sure, if your marines somehow avoid all your armies fire and you send a squad of hormagaunts at them at vastly under their points cost while they're in cover and somehow in a rhino at the same time you kill three marines on the charge.

Perhaps you'd like more hyperbole? Maybe those marines should all be upgraded to veteran sergeants and be in a land raider redeemer and instead of the marines being in cover, they're in cover at the edge of a mine field the tyranids have to charge across. Perhaps then, you feel your hypothetical situation will be weighted enough in the marines favor to prove to yourself that there's no way hormagaunts could ever kill marines because they're always in their rhinos, in cover, and you always have to wait at least two full turns before your're allowed to assault them even with a 13-18" assault range (on 3d6 take the highest.)



Azimaith can put as much make-up on this pig as he wants. It is still a pig.

Tervigon\Hive Guard\Mawloc... all OP which I don't like as a 40K player. All old Nids, beaten into submission with a nerf bat.
Of course, when you fail to actually make a real point resort to platitudes. Frankly, I find your willingness to base the doom of the tyranids on single a battle report weighted heavily against tyranids (it used kill points and the tyranid benefit was an ability that gives *more killpoints!*) rather than on data completely irrational.

de Selby
08-01-2010, 17:56
If by "great rules", you mean OP, then I can agree.

But in my book, OP = terrible, even if it is "my" army that gets it.

I still think there are some great rules in the new niddex. The changes to instinctive behaviour resolve my longstanding gripe about hormagaunts and other bioengineered killing machines spontaneously running away from the enemy, for example. That's worth something. There also seem to be some good 'fear effect' and characterful psychic powers on the Death Leaper, Broodlords etc. which I really like.

Kelderaith
08-01-2010, 17:57
I agree completely with what Azimaith just said, and also, I can't really figure how people can judge an army on a single unfavorable battle. Or maybe Toddznidz is one of those posters which have a bajillion wins, no loss no draw record. Because you know... losing doesn't ever exist on the internet. If you want the new tyranids not to lose ever, just don't play the game, that way, you will never lose :angel:

The Custodian
08-01-2010, 18:02
:skull:

The sarcasm is strong in this one...

Warhammer does not play as worst case scenario...

Azi that post was most amusing...

Guys actually play the dex before spouting off how it's full of fail...

Also if your gaming an enemy who plays a power list then use a power list of your own... So wait a few months until "Teh Uber Lizt" has been found and go back to powergaming...

toddznidz
08-01-2010, 18:15
5, if it moves.

When did hormies get actual S4 and not just option for "poison"? The bane of Nids has always been mech, and halving the point cost on useless paint scratchers and taking away frag grenades doesnt fix that. Hormies take two rounds of bolter fire BECAUSE THEY NO LONGER CHARGE 12"!


Of course, when you fail to actually make a real point resort to platitudes. Frankly, I find your willingness to base the doom of the tyranids on single a battle report weighted heavily against tyranids (it used kill points and the tyranid benefit was an ability that gives *more killpoints!*) rather than on data completely irrational.

RE: the assault termies. Hormies bounced off. Raveners bounced off. Warriors bounced off. Not to mention several rounds of Warrior fire. It wasn't until the Mawloc "swallowed their souls" did they take a casualty.

IMO, the battle report (as all new release battle reports have been in the past) was HEAVILY waited to the Nids. It was NOT kill points, but special house rule objectives. Thank goodness all the Tyranid troops were arbitrarily give WoN or the game would have been over by turn 3... with no Nids on the table.

I do not think or advocate that the Tyranids are "doomed". I just find this new list a thinly veiled attempt to sell more trygons, and I believe Robin Cruddace in incapable of writing anything close to a balanced or tactically challenging Codex. Vendettas and Trygon\Mawloc\Tervigons are a JOKE!

I have spent more than 20 years defending and justifying GW rules and marketing. I honestly believe 5e had the potential to bring a bit of balance to the best supported science fiction table top game on the market. But for me, Cruddace is WAY over the line and undermining the game.

For me, it is not just about "can I win every time".

toddznidz
08-01-2010, 18:19
Also if your gaming an enemy who plays a power list then use a power list of your own... So wait a few months until "Teh Uber Lizt" has been found and go back to powergaming...

"Uber Litz" found:

Tervigon
Tervigon

gaunt
Tervigon
gaunt
Tervigon
gaunt
Tervigon

Hive Guard
Hive Guard
Zoes in a drop pod

Trygon Prime
Mawloc
Mawloc

Adjust to 1850, point and shoot. Actually, just point and dare your opponent to come and get you.

Have fun moving all those gaunts more than 6 but less than 12 away from your Tervigon. That is about all the strategy needed to play a Cruddace written army.

toddznidz
08-01-2010, 18:24
I agree completely with what Azimaith just said, and also, I can't really figure how people can judge an army on a single unfavorable battle. Or maybe Toddznidz is one of those posters which have a bajillion wins, no loss no draw record. Because you know... losing doesn't ever exist on the internet. If you want the new tyranids not to lose ever, just don't play the game, that way, you will never lose :angel:

It ain't about winning and losing. I care more about what my army looks like than winning a game. It's about hours and hours of time spent modeling, converting, and painting so everything looks WSYWYG and the best I can paint it flushed down the toilet by a poorly written, ill conceived, piece of...

azimaith
08-01-2010, 18:45
When did hormies get actual S4 and not just option for "poison"?

Furious charge from adrenal glands, and option for hormagaunts which *vastly* improves poisons effect on toughness 4.


The bane of Nids has always been mech, and halving the point cost on useless paint scratchers and taking away frag grenades doesnt fix that. Hormies take two rounds of bolter fire BECAUSE THEY NO LONGER CHARGE 12"!
What happened to the rhino they were sitting in, or did they now get out, wait an entire turn while the hormagaunts twiddled their thumbs, talons, whatever, and then ran in when they were good and ready to fire?

Hormagaunts fleet, and not only that, they roll 3d6 and take the highest. The probability of fleeting 11-12" is high meaning your still going 13-18" If they want to come rapid fire me they need to leave their precious cover, if they stay in their cover they don't rapid fire me. In either case I still inflict enough casualties at far less than the unit i'm assaulting's cost.



RE: the assault termies. Hormies bounced off. Raveners bounced off. Warriors bounced off. Not to mention several rounds of Warrior fire. It wasn't until the Mawloc "swallowed their souls" did they take a casualty.

You mean the 3 raveners he used deep strike to place cleanly within 12" so the assault terminators could charge them when he had put them anywhere from 19-24 inches away? After that the mawloc charges into combat with the terminators (the mawloc being the crappy CC version of the trygon) and with termagaunts. What sort of unit isn't going to love units blundering into perfect assault ranges for no reason or piling in tiny squads of gaunts. I don't think you could provide a more inept use of fast moving tyranids and smaller swarming tyranids than what was presented here.



IMO, the battle report (as all new release battle reports have been in the past) was HEAVILY waited to the Nids. It was NOT kill points, but special house rule objectives.

Oh yes, heavily weighted for the nids:
The SM got a free command squad.
The SM got a free bastion with heavy bolters.
The SM got a VP every time a synapse brood died.

The Tyranid got to recycle a troops choice per Synapse brood (Which is why he apparently liked recycling synapse broods.)
The tyranid had to destroy one building on one side of the board and kill captain varn all the way on the other side of the board.
The tyranid player had to split his forces between two board edges.

The tyranid player gave up VPs for units that every single space marine model could harm and kill.
The Tyranids got only a single VP maximum for a model every unit could hurt and got three vps for models only certain models can hurt.

This was not weighted toward the tyranids, it wasn't the moment he had to split his forces across the table top. Who even knows why the nid player chose to be 20 points under.



Thank goodness all the Tyranid troops were arbitrarily give WoN or the game would have been over by turn 3... with no Nids on the table.

Erm the termagaunts practically sat through the entire game on the table. Most of the troops lost were due to retarded decisions. Deep striking gargoyles on a board where your some 20" from the enemy, deep striking beasts like raveners within charge range of assault terminators, sending in 15 hormagaunts *alone* against 5 assault terminators. Its a miracle he knew what movement was with all the unnecessary deep strikes he performed.



I do not think or advocate that the Tyranids are "doomed". I just find this new list a thinly veiled attempt to sell more trygons, and I believe Robin Cruddace in incapable of writing anything close to a balanced or tactically challenging Codex. Vendettas and Trygon\Mawloc\Tervigons are a JOKE!

You sure sounded doomy when you called it a pig.



I have spent more than 20 years defending and justifying GW rules and marketing. I honestly believe 5e had the potential to bring a bit of balance to the best supported science fiction table top game on the market. But for me, Cruddace is WAY over the line and undermining the game.

For me, it is not just about "can I win every time".
The worst thing Cruddace is guilty of right now is poor tactical acumen in a battle report. Why don't you wait to see the list in the hands of people who won't just deep strike things because they happen to have the ability.

toddznidz
08-01-2010, 18:57
You mean the 3 raveners he used deep strike to place cleanly within 12" so the assault terminators could charge them when he had put them anywhere from 19-24 inches away? After that the mawloc charges into combat with the terminators (the mawloc being the crappy CC version of the trygon) and with termagaunts. What sort of unit isn't going to love units blundering into perfect assault ranges for no reason or piling in tiny squads of gaunts. I don't think you could provide a more inept use of fast moving tyranids and smaller swarming tyranids than what was presented here.

Erm the termagaunts practically sat through the entire game on the table. Most of the troops lost were due to retarded decisions. Deep striking gargoyles on a board where your some 20" from the enemy, deep striking beasts like raveners within charge range of assault terminators, sending in 15 hormagaunts *alone* against 5 assault terminators. Its a miracle he knew what movement was with all the unnecessary deep strikes he performed.

You sure sounded doomy when you called it a pig.

The worst thing Cruddace is guilty of right now is poor tactical acumen in a battle report. Why don't you wait to see the list in the hands of people who won't just deep strike things because they happen to have the ability.

Thank you for making my point much better than I ever could.

WHY is somebody so tactically inept writing rules for a wargame? It is almost as if he works for the marketing department...

Just because I called the codex a pig doesn't mean I think the Nids are doomed. Like I said, it ain't all about winning...


What happened to the rhino they were sitting in, or did they now get out, wait an entire turn while the hormagaunts twiddled their thumbs, talons, whatever, and then ran in when they were good and ready to fire?

It is more of an either\or scenario. As in either "the marines stay in their rhinos where they can't get hurt" or "the marines stand in cover and blow the crap out of your hormies".

Shadowfax
08-01-2010, 19:04
Thats an interesting assumption. There are a lot of rather good things (or in the case of the Horror- ridiculously disgusting things) that are rather cheap. Part of it is that some of the rumours were not entirely accurate, but reading it, there is very little that is truly overcosted.

Which rumours weren't accurate?



You'll note i've highlighted the word *appeared* throughout the whole post. That's because that's exactly what it is. Appearances. How can anyone tell if no-retreat is going to be an issue without knowing in detail, the upgrades, costs, and synergies a gaunt will have?
We've been out of the rumours stage for a couple of weeks now. People have been looking at a non-english copy of the codex. It's impossible to get 100% clear understanding of the rules from that, but I'd say a 90%+ picture was easily possible.


The Horror of <whatever> does come across as WTF powerful. Everything in 6" Leadership checks on 3d6, and takes wounds equal to the amount they failed by. Then it gains wounds equal to the amount inflicted, which also increases its strength (and the strength of its large blast AP1 psychic attack). And this happens at the start of every shooting phase (including, as specifically mentioned in the book) the enemy phase.

So its going to show up, smack a bunch of enemy units around once (and probably get its power off) before they can even react to it. And then you either have to take more wounds on your turn, or move away leaving a giant hole in your lines.

And it can take a spore pod, and it is less than 100 points (so podding it in is less than 150).
.
Don't agree with any of this. The Doom of Malantai is a gimmick unit that might work well on the rare occasion, but will usually fail.

First off, how many times have you seen your opponent cram a whole bunch of unit together while still leaving a convenient place for a Drop Spore to land? The Doom will be lucky to use his power on 3+ units, after DS scatter is assessed.

Next, he dies to S8 no matter how many wounds he has.

He's the kind of unit that looks amazing when you first read his stats and abilities, but the illusion starts to fall apart once you relax and consider how he'll actually function.

Vepr
08-01-2010, 19:19
Don't agree with any of this. The Doom of Malantai is a gimmick unit that might work well on the rare occasion, but will usually fail.

First off, how many times have you seen your opponent cram a whole bunch of unit together while still leaving a convenient place for a Drop Spore to land? The Doom will be lucky to use his power on 3+ units, after DS scatter is assessed.

Next, he dies to S8 no matter how many wounds he has.

He's the kind of unit that looks amazing when you first read his stats and abilities, but the illusion starts to fall apart once you relax and consider how he'll actually function.

He is just another part of the multiple threat equation in my opinion. On his own he is not very frightening but add in some other threats and he becomes interesting. Do you concentrate on the trygon that just popped up, the warriors that outflanked, the doom of malantai that jus podded in our that Tyrant that is suddenly getting a little close for comfort.

Far from a I win button but a possible thorn when added into a multiple threat assessment. I can already imagine him being worthwhile for clusters of IG heavy weapons teams or slogging orcs. Say hello to my little friend! ;)

gorgon
08-01-2010, 19:50
Azimuth nailed it,

After playing the actual dex I have to say thing like the T4 warrior is not that bad, worst comes to worst just shove an alpha with them to soak up the occasional wound.

I once was doom and gloom but actualy playing the book makes huge differences...

Glad to see it. ;)

airmang
08-01-2010, 19:51
The tyranid had to destroy one building on one side of the board and kill captain varn all the way on the other side of the board.
The tyranid player had to split his forces between two board edges.



Also don't forget that the couldn't assault Varn unless he was the ONLY unit in assault range. And on top of that the SM player got an additional VP for keeping Varn alive. Which at the end he just made sure that there were things around Varn, and the Trygon and Mawlock couldn't get to him (even though he was right next to them.) The battle report was just there to show off some of the new units (Legion of the Damned also), and what they could do. Not necessarily win. Heck the last few battle reports (WHFB and 40K) have not been a win for the new Codex/Army Book, and they have all been "special" scenarios.

toddznidz
08-01-2010, 20:00
Heck the last few battle reports (WHFB and 40K) have not been a win for the new Codex/Army Book, and they have all been "special" scenarios.

The only "loss" for the "new" army I can recall is the final IG mini-replay... Cruddace lost to Phil's OLD Nids (though looking back on it, I have a feeling they were actually the "new" nids, especially since point values were hidden).

Cruddace also lost the PlanetStrike replay defending with IG. With the option to take up to 18 tanks as the defender, Robin opted for Ogryns and Platoons.

I pose the question again. Why is somebody so tactically inept allowed to write rules for this, or any, wargame?

Vineas
08-01-2010, 20:06
Anyone who takes a WD battle report as canon for how an army will play must have been born yesterday.

I enjoy reading them even if my favorite army loses because it's great to see what units are capable of and or to critique and ask yourself "why would he do that"?

As to Robin making lots of mistakes with Tyranids could come down to fairly new at playing (I haven't seem him in many bat reps in WD so maybe he only plays once every few months) or being a totally new army he didn't know what to do.

I know it's also not the best idea but perhaps he was trying to land the gargoyles to shoot the dread in the ass. Sure you only glance but glances can still immobilize, stun, shake or whatever. Probably better targets for the gargoyles at the time but it depends on what his intent was with them.

Shadowfax
08-01-2010, 20:07
I pose the question again. Why is somebody so tactically inept allowed to write rules for this, or any, wargame?
Your question is posited on an inaccurate assumption, which is that all players in every battle report are trying their best to win.

Battle reports seem more like a conspiratorial effort between two players to foster a cinematic game than like an actual real contest between two opponents who are as evenly matched as possible.

We really don't have much of a clue how tactically competent any of the GW staffers are.

Vineas
08-01-2010, 20:10
The only "loss" for the "new" army I can recall is the final IG mini-replay... Cruddace lost to Phil's OLD Nids (though looking back on it, I have a feeling they were actually the "new" nids, especially since point values were hidden).

Cruddace also lost the PlanetStrike replay defending with IG. With the option to take up to 18 tanks as the defender, Robin opted for Ogryns and Platoons.

I pose the question again. Why is somebody so tactically inept allowed to write rules for this, or any, wargame?

So because Robin didn't powergame and take 18 Russ' (not to mention that's in the neighborhood of 2700 pts of naked LRBT's) and took Ogryns and more boots on the ground he is tactically inept? Have you personally used Ogryns because contrary to popular belief Ogryns frighten Sterngaurd, who pimped out cost nearly as much and they can even tie up termies in assault for a round or 2 and usually can wipe at least half the squad.

Unless it was apocalypse planetstrike he wouldn't have had points for 18 LRBT's even if he wanted to take that many. Taking 2 vet squads and a Primaris psyker would have cost him 400pts so even at 3000 pts he wasn't taking 18 LR's. :eyebrows:

I remember guys like Phil Kelly and Matt Ward making stupid mistakes and Phil is considered one of the best codex writers there is now at GW. He made dumb tactical blunders in the 4th ed. inaugural battle report and yet the most recent Eldar codex still holds it's own in tournaments and that thing is going on 5 or 6 years old now and is 1 edition behind.

airmang
08-01-2010, 20:27
The only "loss" for the "new" army I can recall is the final IG mini-replay...

Skaven lost theirs (just barely), Space wolves didn't fare well, and now Nids didn't win their's (lost with 3 vs 4VP). So it really seems like they are trying to have interesting scenarios, take a variety of units to show them off (so you'll buy them ;) ), and to tell more of a story. Really you can't judge an army by the WD battle report. They've even told us in the past that they normall play multiple times, and write up the most interesting game in WD, no matter which side won.

sycopat
08-01-2010, 20:34
I remember years ago reading battle reports that (Blatantly stated they) were replayed due to one of the armies losing badly. So now they don't bother to replay a game to make sure the new army wins. So what?

And tbh, from a game design viewpoint I would much prefer a games designer who uses number crunching and playtester feedback to balance a list over one who relies solely on first hand experience.

Purely because if the designer relying on his own experience is inept your more likely to get an overpowered list, while if the player is a master of strategy your more likely to get underpowered armies.

And on topic, I got some nid love right here. I like the models and want a new army, and nids are it.

I quite like that a mixed horde of gants, stealers, hormies and gargoyles backed up by hive gaurd, zoanthropes, warriors and a few MC's and drop pods looks like it's going to be a force thats both viable and fluffy. Perhaps it won't be top tier competitive, but it should be a fun force to collect and play with.

Megad00mer
08-01-2010, 20:43
I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure it wasn't even Robin Cruddace playing the Tyranids in the battle report.

MystheDevourer
08-01-2010, 22:36
Umm, really? My first responses to the Codex were whether or not I'd even be able to use my Tau now that the new Nids exist. MCs in drop pods, the best tank buster in the game with a longer range than MMs (Zoans) also in pods, Mawlocs ripping my suits to shreds without ever presenting a target, MCs as troops making more troops while giving FNP to unit around them, plenty of longer range shooting to keep my tanks from firing, Tau not having any psychic defence for all the crap that will be coming at us, more flying MCs, tons of warriors with good blast weaponry, spore mines to mess up deployments. Tau are already having some trouble, but I don't see how I can bring my Tau to a tourney once the new Nids start getting used. If you want I can start throwing in more posts about OP Nid builds if it'll make you feel better.

The reason you're not hearing repetitive posts complaining about all this stuff is we're outshouted by the Nidzilla players crying about Fexes and grenades, the same players that only use Fexes and Stealers currently. To be honest the amount of hysterical lashing out at shapes and colors is staggering. DE and Inq players I'm sure would love to have the amount of attention that Nids are getting, but Nid players can't see past 2 units enough to see that.
You are my new found friend, most of the people I know are complaining about the same things time in and time out. They are not looking at the new perspective where as we can now have a counter to Space marine Drop Pods, we have the beautiful ability to be a tank buster (which we use to have problems with!!!), not those pesky monoliths and land raiders are toast, its like we have our own version of the Broadside, AND ITS ELITE!!!! Our Tyrants can now make our reserves come in faster meaning that CC Fex waiting in his cramped little pod just came down to eat some tanks or maybe we will take the 20 Toxic Hormaguants and drop them into a bunch of Fire Warriors or even a squad of Devastators!

I plan on enjoying this codex ALOT! Now agreed there are a few flaws (MCs with only a save of 3+ which sucks, Termies have better surviabilty then a Trygon. . . wait what?!?!?!?!) but still the fun will ensue regardless~!

~Mys

toddznidz
09-01-2010, 02:00
As to Robin making lots of mistakes with Tyranids could come down to fairly new at playing (I haven't seem him in many bat reps in WD so maybe he only plays once every few months) or being a totally new army he didn't know what to do.

Though I will wholeheartedly agree that Robin seems to be new to Nids and he doesn't appear to play 40K very often...

He wrote the *******' Codex, people!

I understand the WD battle replays are what they are, and those who play them are restricted by the models they need to showcase. But part of the reason to look at them is to see how the units work as well as perform.

None of them appear to work very well for Cruddace. It may not have been him playing the Nids in the replay, but it was his name and his picture under the list and he was quoted at the end.

Where did he come from anyway? He seemed to just appear out of nowhere to sell Vendettas, errr, ummm... write the IG Codex. Now he has broken another list while even his supporters seem to classify him as "tactically inept", "a novice", or "someone who doesn't play very often".

Once again I pose the question. Why is somebody with no apparent experience or tactical acumen writing rules for a wargame?

toddznidz
09-01-2010, 02:09
And tbh, from a game design viewpoint I would much prefer a games designer who uses number crunching and playtester feedback to balance a list over one who relies solely on first hand experience.

Purely because if the designer relying on his own experience is inept your more likely to get an overpowered list, while if the player is a master of strategy your more likely to get underpowered armies.

Once again, stated much better then I could. Robin Cruddace being obviously the former type of game designer, thus the OP Codex...

Give me the subtle list with hidden gems designed by a master over this garbage anyday.

Give me a list balanced within the game system other than one apparently purely designed JUST to sell models. I would have bought them anyway...

Vineas
09-01-2010, 03:22
Again, Phil Kelly wrote the goddamn Eldar codex and played it in his inaugural battle in WD, even taking units deemed not worthy of most players (wraithguard), made stupid tactical blunders. He still won but he made mistakes that you think he wouldn't have having written the codex.

With 'Nid players like you on Warseer I'm almost ashamed to admit I play Tyranids. Try reading the thread titled "I played with the leaked tyranid codex" or something along those lines. Better yet, try it out for yourself. You obviously have it in front of you being able to judge the codex before putting your minis on the table top so put your money where your mouth is....

Put up or shut up.

darks23
09-01-2010, 04:33
Once again I pose the question. Why is somebody with no apparent experience or tactical acumen writing rules for a wargame?

Because that's the kind of person who makes the best rules;) BTW how does this make a diffrence in the codex? we've already seen the rules, so how does the relization that Robin is a novice make a diffrence in how we veiw the dex? That's like saying Eragon is bad book because the writer was young when he wrote it.

itcamefromthedeep
09-01-2010, 05:07
The Tyranid love?

Biovores. I think that model got just enough what it needed. When combined with the lack of variety in AT options I wish that Biovores had kept some AT capacity, but this will do.

Also, the new models are really nice.


4 - 6 carnifexes was the norm, now with the fex point hike, you'd probably won't even see more than 2 in competitive lists.
Why would you see any Carnifexes in a competitive list? Even a podded Dakkafex is kinda outclassed by a Trygon Prime in the same price bracket (lighter on the shooting, much heavier in Assault).


Did NOBODY read the battle report in January WD. Even with FREE WoN on ALL troops (including Warriors), Cruddace couldn't keep ANY troops (including Warriors) on the table.
Robin Cruddace was playing against Bastions, and decided to leave the Zoanthropes at home. A brood could deploy within range, and maybe knock out a bastion section or the Redeemer on the way there. The lack of Zoanthropes was clearly a result of showcasing the new units, which just happened to fill his Elites section.

That game was far from a cut-throat demonstration of the new codex's power.

---

The codex got the Chaos Marines treatment (for the most part). The internal balance is awful, it hardly looks playtested, there was drastic reduction in options, and it looks to be quite powerful with the right combination of units. The one exception is that Tyranids got more units, where Chaos Marines lost about a dozen (Cult Terminators, Cult HQs, aligned Daemons, and a couple other Legion-specific ones).

Two steps forward, two steps back.

Remoah
09-01-2010, 05:58
Because that's the kind of person who makes the best rules;) BTW how does this make a diffrence in the codex? we've already seen the rules, so how does the relization that Robin is a novice make a diffrence in how we veiw the dex? That's like saying Eragon is bad book because the writer was young when he wrote it.

Eragon is a horrible book, a basic rip-off of the starwars plot with charachters and writing that have little to no depth, and social interactions depicted by a kid who was homeschooled and probably never had the 'normal' social life most of us had, and it all showed...

Eragon Bash over...

As long as im seeing armies consiting of 80+ gaunts, im happy. Its how Nids should be played, as depicted in the fluff and should be somewhat reflected by the Rules.
Im not so happy with his mech-ing of guard, but then again its needed because of the HUGE amounts of money one must now spend on them...

So im not sure, id like to see Nid armies with a majority of guants, but if its going to cost an arm and a leg like guard does to fil out with infantry, well, maybe its best to keep with the Nidzilla lists... at least people can afford to play them.

blackroyal
09-01-2010, 06:05
I spent 4 hours today at the flgs reading the new codex/making lists. I love how the new codex will let me make a 2K list with 1 MC in it. I get to bring 128 wounds, 74 of those are troops (18 warriors + 20 Hormgaunts). You CAN make nidzilla, but no longer must in order to feel competitive.
The best part is that I feel no need to go and buy anything new. I want a Trygon and some gargoyles, but that can wait while I learn what everything else does.

Nicha11
09-01-2010, 06:33
Eragon is a horrible book, a basic rip-off of the starwars plot with charachters and writing that have little to no depth, and social interactions depicted by a kid who was homeschooled and probably never had the 'normal' social life most of us had, and it all showed...


Say what you want about Tyranids but

Don't.Bash.Eragon!


I'm still not sure what to think the new tryanid codex. On the one hand horde armies are feasible again which is great.
On the other EW is gone so Typhus will be slaying Tyranid MC's left right and centre.

Vineas
09-01-2010, 06:33
I love the level headed posts and responses about Tyranids. Every time I feel like stealing candy from a baby from losing my temper over some whiner, I find one sensible sane person who is willing to give it a try and to maybe try units that are already decried not worthy (and I know first hand how badly heavy flamers murder IG so even just a single Pyrovore in a spore pod will most likely wipe out to the man an IG squad, 3 of them will cost the same as a 10 man tac squad and will probably wipe it out (or hurt it so bad it's no longer a threat).

I want to eventually some day own all the units. Want to for sure try the Venomthrope. Would be a good unit to put in with my 'Stealers to help keep them alive and ensure I get the assault (nobody is going to want to risk a dangerous terrain roll and losing their bonus attack against stealers).

Shadowfax
09-01-2010, 07:20
I love the level headed posts and responses about Tyranids. Every time I feel like stealing candy from a baby from losing my temper over some whiner, I find one sensible sane person who is willing to give it a try and to maybe try units that are already decried not worthy (and I know first hand how badly heavy flamers murder IG so even just a single Pyrovore in a spore pod will most likely wipe out to the man an IG squad, 3 of them will cost the same as a 10 man tac squad and will probably wipe it out (or hurt it so bad it's no longer a threat).

I want to eventually some day own all the units. Want to for sure try the Venomthrope. Would be a good unit to put in with my 'Stealers to help keep them alive and ensure I get the assault (nobody is going to want to risk a dangerous terrain roll and losing their bonus attack against stealers).
You've been on this tack for a while now, but I still can't see how it's any more defensible to make favourable conclusions about the new Tyranids codex without having used it than it is to make unfavourable conclusions about the new Tyranids codex without having used it.

You guys go on and on about it, but there are only really 3-4 regular posters who are consistently bitching about the new book being garbage. All the other regulars are objectively pointing out both the good and the bad (and there's plenty of bad, no matter how hard you try to martyr yourself in the
name of positivity).

azimaith
09-01-2010, 07:37
Ten Commandments of New Codex Discussion

I. Thou shalt not condemn any army based on supposition and rumor.

II. Thou shalt not fall to despair nor frustration without testing and objective examination.

III. Thou shalt not cast aside units solely on the words of others.

IV. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors special rules in spite of thine own.

V. Thou shalt not claim hyperbole as evidence.

VI. Thou shalt not give examples in which all odds are stacked in your favor as evidence.

VII. Thou shalt not claim miracles of luck and as proof of balance or imbalance.

VIII. Thou shalt not cast epithets and aspersions in place of logic and reason.

IX. Thou shalt shun the bandwagon and forum consensus and replace it with measured experience and experimentation.

X. Thou shalt not discount the lasgun, the knife, and their kin as a weapon of death when measuring a units worth.

Vineas
09-01-2010, 07:57
You've been on this tack for a while now, but I still can't see how it's any more defensible to make favourable conclusions about the new Tyranids codex without having used it than it is to make unfavourable conclusions about the new Tyranids codex without having used it.

You guys go on and on about it, but there are only really 3-4 regular posters who are consistently bitching about the new book being garbage. All the other regulars are objectively pointing out both the good and the bad (and there's plenty of bad, no matter how hard you try to martyr yourself in the
name of positivity).

Because I know from MY personal experience (YMMV) that certain units seen as garbage in ANY codex can be made to work well or at least make their points back. Ogryns being a fine example. 240pts worth of Ogryns will be a headache for 230pts worth of Terminator and will absolutely murder any squad in power armor. They are a tar pit unit (no fist option so I don't see them as offensive really) that will do the job better than they ever did and better than most people see them for. A tar pit unit that can lay the smack down if it has the chance to shoot and then assault.

It is bad form to judge a unit based on how it performs on paper. Assuming a unit had 0's for all it's stats but it had 20 wounds, T1 and a special rule that gave the controlling player an automatic win on a 2+ rolled for every turn. Most people would be like "OMG it's a must have unit because I auto-win at the end of turn 1 if I roll a 2+ on a D6", forgetting that the enemy could technically instakill it with even a bolter (as S4 is more than twice it's T of 1). It would look uberOP but if you could only take 1 it would not be alive at the end of the 1st turn so in practice not all that great.

To say a codex is garbage just by looking at stats and rules for individual units is just bad form. Like the new apparent PG (power gaming) list has 5 Tervigons. I'm sorry but I'm just not that impressed and I don't see a 5 Tervigon army doing that well in tournaments. Maybe if that player plays someone new to the nid codex and doesn't expect each one to poop out more termagants you'll catch him/her unaware but by the next 'ardboyz or GT most anyone seriously competing will have played it and know how to counter. I still see mech seriously eating a Tervigon list.

I also think declaring the Trygon as the no-brainer HS unit is also premature. I'm getting one for the model but I also know I can get my screamer-killers to work. Mawloc isn't that great to me but I'll get one for the model. That will be my 3rd HS. In PS as defender I'll take my 3rd Carnifex I have since I can have up to 6 HS.

I'm seeing units doing good for people in batreps that are considered garbage by people who only care about stats.

I mean, a Lambo is one of the fastest cars in the world but in the hands of someone who got their license last week and has never driven one will not perform as it should. Give that person 6 months behind the wheel of a Lambo and they'll put it to its full capabilities.

Shadowfax
09-01-2010, 08:17
But making something work in statistically uncommon scenarios is a completely different thing from making something work game-in, game-out against a variety of opponents who are playing optimized lists themselves.

Taking your Trygon/Carnifex example; sure, fexes will have their place. They have good enough stats and abilities that they can kill whatever is put in front of them, no problem. But there are very, very few situations where you will find the Carnifex better than the Trygon, rendering it somewhat obsolete in the larger scale of things.

And garnering info from battle reports has its own set of problems. For starters, you have no idea about the quality of the players involved, the inside knowledge they have of each others' tendencies and model-count capabilities, the terrain they expect to be involved, etc.

Therefore, imo, stat-crunching and hypothetical scenarios are just as important to discussions as firsthand reports are, because they assume equality in variables that are seldom actually equal in a small sample set of real world games.

itcamefromthedeep
09-01-2010, 14:49
Because I know from MY personal experience (YMMV) that certain units seen as garbage in ANY codex can be made to work well or at least make their points back.
Yes, but only so long as nothing else simply does their job better.

There is not possible situation in which you would rather take a twin-linked deathspitter over a twin-linked devourer on a Hive Tyrant. The devourers are strictly, measurably better, in every circumstance that exists in 40k (the deathspitters might do better against a hypothetical Armor 5 vehicle, but that's about it). That's a problem.

Anyone who plays games can tell you that Termagants are better than Spinegaunst. The Spinegaunts do marginally better GEQ or T6 with an equal number of shooters, bur worse against armor 10 vehicles. The guns are roughly equivalent. Since they're cheaper, Termagants are just better.

The comparison between a Carnifex and hive Tyrant is shocking. It was before as well, but before now the Carnifex guns did things that the Hive Tyrants' guns didnt (really high Strength). Now, it's remarkably hard to see why you would possibly take a Carnifex over the vastly superior Tyrant. If you had two Hive Tyrants, the only reason I see to switch one out for a Carnifex is that you expect to fight a Monolith (or you really really need to insta-kill some Marine hero and that is somehow a fair trade for synapse, 4 points of Initiative, 5 points of WS and the psychic powers).

You don't need to play a game to see when one unit is strictly better than another. You don't need to play games to see when a unit is more valuable in the vast majority of games.

You also don't need to play games to see that Spore Mine Clusters weren't playtested. An FAQ issue comes up immediately and obviously as soon as you play Capture and Control.

---

It's a shoddy codex. I can win with it (and have). I can (and will) have lots of fun with it. The new models are great. Some units are vastly improved choices all-round (Biovores). It may yet do well at the highest tiers of play. All that is true, and Cruddace screwed up hard all over the place.

toddznidz
09-01-2010, 16:08
With 'Nid players like you on Warseer I'm almost ashamed to admit I play Tyranids.

Well, with authors like Robin writing the Codex, I am ashamed to call myself a Nid player.

RE: the "I played it thread", let me know how he does without Trygons\Tervigon spam against Chim-Vet Spam, The Farseer Council, Nob Bikerz, Vulcan or any well thought out Marine list, etc. I saw the thread and had to laugh at the lists he was playing.

And once again, it is not all about winning.

No, you put up or shut up! Nanny-nanny-boo-boo!

Codex written by a novice for novices. Very, very, dissapointing.

toddznidz
09-01-2010, 16:19
As long as im seeing armies consiting of 80+ gaunts, im happy. Its how Nids should be played, as depicted in the fluff and should be somewhat reflected by the Rules.

Even if they are there JUST so you can make an MC scoring, or Just because said MC made them?

Nids are still out horded by the Orcs...

airmang
09-01-2010, 16:43
Ten Commandments of New Codex Discussion

I. Thou shalt not condemn any army based on supposition and rumor....



This is awesome. If i could i would make the whole thing my sig.:D

Lord Cook
09-01-2010, 16:49
Ten Commandments of New Codex Discussion

If you would be so kind, I would like to include this in our Tactica PDF, as even my fellow Guard players need to remember these sort of things as well.

Vineas
09-01-2010, 22:04
Even if they are there JUST so you can make an MC scoring, or Just because said MC made them?

Nids are still out horded by the Orcs...

Someone is right. Your record must be 1 billion wins and 0 losses. Hard to lose when you don't actually play, eh?

CKO
09-01-2010, 22:31
My new sig is the reason why GW staff doesnt listen to its customers, it came from the deep.

itcamefromthedeep
09-01-2010, 22:43
My new sig is the reason why GW staff doesnt listen to its customers, it came from the deep.
Congratulations. I'll paraphrase for you.

You don't need to play games to see that S6 is better than S5.

You don't need to play games to see that 6 plasma guns are better than 1 meltagun.

---

EDIT: At the same price.

Since you were thick enough to disagree with me that you don't need to play games to see that S6 is always better than S5, it's important that I be clear on these points.

EDIT AGIAN: To be clear, twin deathspitters on a monstrous creature are strictly worse than twin devourers. This means that there is no situation in which the deathspitters are more effective. This is analogous to the difference between S6 and S5. There can be no argument over which is the more effective choice. No amount of playtesting will can possibly show otherwise.

In the second example, Spinegaunts are worse than Termagants. They're not strictly worse, but they are clearly worse. There are a few targets that Spinegaunts are better at shooting, but neither one is good at shooting anything. Since the gun doesn't do you much good anyway, paying for a marginal increase in firepower just doesn't make sense. It's like paying 4 points per model to put melta bombs on an entire Devastator squad. There are times when the bombs would be useful, but players just don't take those kinds of options.

Egaeus
10-01-2010, 00:15
There is not possible situation in which you would rather take a twin-linked deathspitter over a twin-linked devourer on a Hive Tyrant. The devourers are strictly, measurably better, in every circumstance that exists in 40k (the deathspitters might do better against a hypothetical Armor 5 vehicle, but that's about it). That's a problem.

But...why? In most codexes there are options that just aren't that good. The only "problem" I see is if GW is trying to use this as an example of "see, we give you choices..." At least in this case it seems to me simply an issue of "then don't use them".



Anyone who plays games can tell you that Termagants are better than Spinegaunst. The Spinegaunts do marginally better GEQ or T6 with an equal number of shooters, bur worse against armor 10 vehicles. The guns are roughly equivalent. Since they're cheaper, Termagants are just better.

The most discontent I've voiced over the new Codex is this sort of thing...where it seems they changed options not for the sake of change but rather with the appearance that they are pushing Termagants on you. Still really not sure why they aren't just the same price. In 3rd Spinegaunts were a better option because they were 2 points cheaper. In 4th they were only a point cheaper but that point got you higher S plus re-rolls to wound versus the re-roll on the to-hit roll, so Termagants were actually worth the upgrade. I haven't seen the Codex yet, but I also haven't seen anything discussed that suggests there is something that was overlooked that actually makes Spinegaunts worth the extra point.



The comparison between a Carnifex and hive Tyrant is shocking. It was before as well, but before now the Carnifex guns did things that the Hive Tyrants' guns didnt (really high Strength). Now, it's remarkably hard to see why you would possibly take a Carnifex over the vastly superior Tyrant. If you had two Hive Tyrants, the only reason I see to switch one out for a Carnifex is that you expect to fight a Monolith (or you really really need to insta-kill some Marine hero and that is somehow a fair trade for synapse, 4 points of Initiative, 5 points of WS and the psychic powers).

Haven't seen the new Codex, but aren't Tyrants still HQ and 'Fexes still HS? So while it's not strictly apples-to-oranges (maybe more of a Granny Smiths to Washingtons?) you can't really say they're strictly interchangeable.



It's a shoddy codex. I can win with it (and have). I can (and will) have lots of fun with it. The new models are great. Some units are vastly improved choices all-round (Biovores). It may yet do well at the highest tiers of play. All that is true, and Cruddace screwed up hard all over the place.

Again, my main point of contention has been that it seems that the old units got nerfed while the shiny new units are the "ones to beat". That doesn't mean that it won't be a playable ruleset, just that the crass marketing aspect leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Again, I haven't actually seen the Codex yet, but from the discussions I've read that seems to be the picture that is developing.

azimaith
10-01-2010, 00:52
If you would be so kind, I would like to include this in our Tactica PDF, as even my fellow Guard players need to remember these sort of things as well.

Go for it.



Again, my main point of contention has been that it seems that the old units got nerfed while the shiny new units are the "ones to beat". That doesn't mean that it won't be a playable ruleset, just that the crass marketing aspect leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Again, I haven't actually seen the Codex yet, but from the discussions I've read that seems to be the picture that is developing.

I agree with this, there does appear to be a distinct money grab feel in this new codex with things like spinegaunts which a lot of us had tons and tons of being made much worse, same with carnifex, still in my army I use a lot of hormagaunts, a small squad of warriors, a tyrant, and zoanthropes all of which got better. Outside of my carnifex I don't really need to buy anything to make the new one work.

itcamefromthedeep
10-01-2010, 01:10
Again, my main point of contention has been that it seems that the old units got nerfed while the shiny new units are the "ones to beat".
That Harpy and Tyrannofex look underwhelming, and they are expected to get a model at some point this edition. The Pyrovore looks worse than underwhelming. Not all of the new units are dynamite.


I agree with this, there does appear to be a distinct money grab feel in this new codex with things like spinegaunts which a lot of us had tons and tons of being made much worse, same with carnifex, still in my army I use a lot of hormagaunts, a small squad of warriors, a tyrant, and zoanthropes all of which got better. Outside of my carnifex I don't really need to buy anything to make the new one work.
I've found that my play-style works just fine using existing units in my collection. I will be using a brood of Hive Guard in virtually every game, but I don't need to in my environment. The rest of the models I'll be using for the forseeable future are models I already own.

Coredump
10-01-2010, 01:24
Why would you see any Carnifexes in a competitive list? Even a podded Dakkafex is kinda outclassed by a Trygon Prime in the same price bracket (lighter on the shooting, much heavier in Assault).


Taking your Trygon/Carnifex example; sure, fexes will have their place. They have good enough stats and abilities that they can kill whatever is put in front of them, no problem. But there are very, very few situations where you will find the Carnifex better than the Trygon, rendering it somewhat obsolete in the larger scale of things.

Not quite. If the role you are trying to fill is the traditional Devilfex role. (lost of shots, forcing lots of saves.)
new Devilfex is 190 pts, and will force 7.5 T4 saves
A Trygon Prime, is 240 pts, and will force 4 T4 saves

So about half as effective.

Now, it is much better in CC, but I don't really need more CC in my army. The codex is full of CC goodies.
The Trygon also comes with Synapse, which may turn out to be important, I have to see about that.

Coredump
10-01-2010, 01:48
In the second example, Spinegaunts are worse than Termagants. They're not strictly worse, but they are clearly worse. There are a few targets that Spinegaunts are better at shooting, but neither one is good at shooting anything. Since the gun doesn't do you much good anyway, paying for a marginal increase in firepower just doesn't make sense. It's like paying 4 points per model to put melta bombs on an entire Devastator squad. There are times when the bombs would be useful, but players just don't take those kinds of options. But you need to be careful on what metrics you are using.

Know those times when you roll 16 dice, and miss with 12 of them?
How important is it to you for that to never happen?

Yes, spinefists do not do any better than fleshborers.... on *average*. But, it is much more likely for you to really whiff with a brood of Terms than a brood of spineys. (That reroll makes a big difference.)
Apparently, GW feels that the reliability of twin linking is a valuable option, so prices it as more.

Same as a spikerifle. GW feels that range is important, and valuable to a Nid codex that is mostly short range, so they drop the power *and* increase the cost to get that extra 6"

T-fex is underwhelming, depending on how you look at it. The 'play style' for Nids is being designed to be up close shooting, and CC. So game design says that if you are going to get a long range, powerful ranged weapon, it needs to cost for the Nids.
Tau, gets it cheap, Nids...not so much.
But it is S10, can take a lot of damage, can move and shoot (which can really help to avoid cover saves), and can definitely hold its own in CC. It can't get neutralized by some pissant imperial psy hood, and you don't have to get up close and personal to use it. Does that make it worth a LR in costs..?? I doubt it, but it may turn out to be worth the points, to get some first turn death on those pesky vehicles.

Now, nothing I can think of explains the TLDev and TLDeath situation (for MCs), but y'know, that is such a minor issue I have a hard time getting upset about it. I chalk it up as a funny goof, instead of indication that the codex is ********.



You also don't need to play games to see that Spore Mine Clusters weren't playtested. An FAQ issue comes up immediately and obviously as soon as you play Capture and Control.
I don't doubt you, but I can't think of what the FAQ issue is.

OTOH, one of the problems with playtesting, is sometimes everyone makes the same assumptions, and so no one catches it as a problem. We see it all the time. Someone comes on the forum and talks about how their groups has always played it as (whatever), but because they all sort of assumed that was what the rules meant.

Lets say dropping empty pods. I know people that just 'knew' it was not allowed; so they never played with it as possible. So if they were playtesting, they would never have caught any issues with dropping pods, since they would have never done it.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for GW playtesting, but a more understandable situation than 'they don't bother'.

Lord Cook
10-01-2010, 02:31
My new sig is the reason why GW staff doesnt listen to its customers, it came from the deep.

Funny, I thought you had that because you agreed with it? I certainly wouldn't call it laughable. I'm inclined to agree with it, at least to some extent.


At least in this case it seems to me simply an issue of "then don't use them".

But that does rather beg the question "Then why include them?".


Apparently, GW feels that the reliability of twin linking is a valuable option, so prices it as more.

Honestly, I don't give GW that much credit. I think it's simply a case of incompetence. Added reliability should be worth more, I really do agree, but not to the tune of a +20% cost.


So game design says that if you are going to get a long range, powerful ranged weapon, it needs to cost for the Nids.
Tau, gets it cheap, Nids...not so much.

Again, I think many of these instances are not intentional. There's just too much poor pricing going on to believe that GW has a consistent policy towards edging players into pre-conceived roles. That said, it can sometimes have beneficial side effects. I think it's good that Tyranid long-range shooting costs more considering it's effectiveness than Tau long range shooting. In exchange for that however I think they deserve cheaper costs when it comes to things like combat.

Many Tyranid players are whining that they still suck at destroying tanks at long range. Well the Guard still sucks against genestealers in hand to hand. All is as it should be.


Not exactly a ringing endorsement for GW playtesting, but a more understandable situation than 'they don't bother'.

This is provably true. When people were shouting about twin-Lash Chaos armies, the GW response was basically "We never thought anyone would use two". Clearly no one in their playtest department was enough of a douche to do this, so it was never spotted. That makes their playtesting policy inadequate, obviously, but it also answers a lot of questions.

azimaith
10-01-2010, 02:53
Many Tyranid players are whining that they still suck at destroying tanks at long range. Well the Guard still sucks against genestealers in hand to hand. All is as it should be.

I don't even understand this desire to pop tanks at range. Sure, *game wise* I can see the benefit, but as a tyranid player I would *love* to see more reliable options of stopping a vehicle in its tracks so I could om nom nom its crew. That just seems so much more entertaining not to mention providing a good role for carnifex who always struck me as the typical tank flipper. It would be awesome to have some sort of long range gun that would cut a vehicles movement in half or stop it altogether for one turn (IE a giant spike that nailed it to the ground or a massive electrical burst frying its moving abilities) or even a fleeting carnifex so it could at least catch said vehicles when they started to trundle away. The fex still seems very slow. On the plus side, that also means that nearly ever vehicle that's running away can't fire of course, but still, sometimes you just want to flip a tank over.

The trygon and the tyrant, to me, are more anti-infantry style choices while the carnifex is supposed to be the anti-tank choice in my opinion, but without movement to overrun a vehicle and with extra armor it just becomes sort of futile.

I know the venom cannon with its glance only rules was probably designed entirely around stopping a vehicle from running but with extra armor on so much stun often equates to shaken.

itcamefromthedeep
10-01-2010, 04:13
Not quite. If the role you are trying to fill is the traditional Devilfex role. (lost of shots, forcing lots of saves.)
new Devilfex is 190 pts, and will force 7.5 T4 saves
A Trygon Prime, is 240 pts, and will force 4 T4 saves

So about half as effective.
Honestly, I was thinking that the Trygon had BS4. Perhaps a holdover from early rumors. The Devilfex does bring a lot more firepower.

The twin devourers option may yet salvage the Carnifex. They are quite underpriced as an option, which may offset the Carnifex tax enough to make the unit okay. It still has an uphill battle in my mind, but those devourers should be sitting at something like 25 points for the upgrade (in isolation).

Two wrongs make a right in this case. I guess.


Yes, spinefists do not do any better than fleshborers.... on *average*. But, it is much more likely for you to really whiff with a brood of Terms than a brood of spineys. (That reroll makes a big difference.)
Apparently, GW feels that the reliability of twin linking is a valuable option, so prices it as more.
You may be right that Spinegaunts pay for reliability. However, if there's anything that Spinegaunts have taught us it's that the gun doesn't matter all that much. That's what really kills the option.

As for the Spike Rifle, that makes sense to me. That extra 6" is enough to shoot people from outside of assault range. It's enough to get most of the brood in range rather than just the front few. With 18" Gaunts might actually work as models that shoot things. there's definitely an argument for that extra point for Riflegaunts (Spikegaunts sounds too close to Spinegaunts).

---

SPORE MINES

I don't doubt you, but I can't think of what the FAQ issue is.
Sure. I thought I had complained about it enough that it had gotten around. In a Capture and Control mission, both the objectives and the mines go down after deployment zones are chosen, but before the armies are deployed. It doesn't say whether the Mines go down before or after the objectives.

They also forgot to include a clause that stops mines from moving, running and assaulting. They drift, but nothing says that this replaces normal movement.

One of the other indications in my mind that they weren't playtested is that they don't get to scatter before the first Tyranid turn. If the non-Tyranid player goes first, then they're stuck in Deep Strike formation, which means that the first bolter aimed at those fragile T1 Mines will destroy the entire cluster.

Last but not least, they die when they hit a friendly unit. This means that they will commit suicide a lot the first time they scatter, because they're still in Deep Strike formation (base contact, so about a third of the scatter results will have them hit a friendly).

Oh, and if you still thought they were going to kill things, tank shocking them causes them to blow up, which most vehicles don't care about with their front armor 11. I don't really mind this one, because that's a really cool visual.

They're handy for denying area to your opponent in Dawn of War. Just don't expect them to kill anything.

MajorWesJanson
10-01-2010, 04:42
...Riflegaunts (Spikegaunts sounds too close to Spinegaunts).

I read that and this came to mind:
"This is my rifle, this is my gaunt. This one's for shooting, and his one's for nom."

azimaith
10-01-2010, 05:05
They're not called rifle gaunts or spike gaunts, they're called "Impaler Broods."

Lord Solar Plexus
10-01-2010, 08:23
When did it become what a model can do instead of Wow!!! That’s a cool model and I want it in my army?

Is that what 40K has turned into? My stat is better than your stat.


I don't remember the exact date but it has been so at least since early Second Edition, so your incredulity is a little late.



Where is all the Tyranid Love?


I don't understand - isn't it all over the place? Have you looked into a thread next to yours?

Angelwing
10-01-2010, 09:10
But that does rather beg the question "Then why include them?".



Because some people may have models from the previous editions that have those options.
That doesn't excuse bad writing / playtesting, but it's good for some players to have those options.

Egaeus
10-01-2010, 11:08
Because some people may have models from the previous editions that have those options.
That doesn't excuse bad writing / playtesting, but it's good for some players to have those options.

This is exactly what I was going to say in response. :)

Also, there are often options included for people to do fun, fluff-oriented things with an army that aren't worth the points at all.

Scarob
10-01-2010, 21:00
I confess to building armies based on what looks awesome instead of what's effective. This has occasionally worked in my favor - I've long had a love for flamer/melta weapons and CC terminators, which have become quite effective in 5th edition :p.

Well the other side of that is that if you make an army that is effective rules wise, then you can model your miniatures to look awsome...... with 4th ed Tyranids my Carnis guns had guns, it sounds like dumb idea, but it looks awsome, so all my Twin-linked Tyranid weapons are guns with guns XD

Scarob
10-01-2010, 21:10
Thing is the tervigon looks like it's going to be the staple of every list, and I rather don't like that, (childish I know)...

I'm more miffed by the loss of my fexes and how I need to get trygons... And convert some warriors into hive guard..

Ah well, at least I have a new fallback army which will never have drastic change (sm) and a xenos army to sate my alien needs (eldar)

I'll wait until I have the dex in hand but from the leaked copies I have I'm not impressed...
I agree, seeing and reading an actual copy will be better than leaked info! though i do prefer it back in the day when new Codexes were improvments of the old one, not completely new rules for a completely differnt style army!

CKO
10-01-2010, 21:18
I am a very offensive minded player that likes to attack and you can either attack during the shooting phase or in the assault phase. Thats why I chose to play Guard as I think they have the best shooting phase, now I want to play an army with the best assault phase which to me can be the new Tyranids.

Reasons Why I am Playing Nids?

1.Warriors/Winged
Warriors are one of the most versatile units in the game. I know they now can be instant killed, but they can take boneswords. Which means they are a threat to all multi-wound units, especially when you consider what a pair of boneswords can do. You can also give them very dangerous weaponry giving your opponent the choice to attack them or your monstrous creatures.

2. Landing Spores
Landing Spores are like drop pods meaning that you can safely drop units without worrying about mishaps. Being able to place units near the area of need is beyond good, now I know alot of Space Marines players are asking themselves whats so good about drop pods? Well the new nids are going to be able to make what I call "The Ant Pile". 20 termagants or hormagaunts in a land spore droping anywhere they want should be a big distraction for 150 or less points! Who cares if they lurk or hunt when they are that close thats what they should do anyways, first "chimelta" now "Ant Piles" I am good with nick names. :D

3.Lictors
They can show up anywhere they want to, they then give +1 to reserve rolls, and they have teleport homers. If you play a reserve type list with deep strikers and pods you can easily decide to overwhelm one side by placing these guys in cover or better yet decide to attack the weak side. They also have str 6 which means against most vehicles they can easily pen or glance. The main thing I am excited about is hit and run, they can leave the fight to allow something more powerful to fight the fight. Then there is the whole move 3d6 in a straight line so that you can bring in more soldiers with your pheromones.

4.Trygon
With its ws it hits most things on 3's with its strength it wounds most things on 2's, and its initiative allows it to hit before thunderhammers and it has 6 wounds nuff said.


The things I will not be doing with the new codex is investing in shooty nids. I dont think 6 missle launchers(which is what hive guard basically are) is enough anti-tank to justify using up one of the elite spots. I also will not use venom cannons as they will have to be spam to be effective and monstrous creatures are to expensive to do that. However the Zoanthrope is just to good to be ignored, it is the only true way to take down land raiders effectively, however a smart player will tie it down in cc.

So how do I plan on taking down vehicles? Multiple str 5 and 6 attacks against rear av of 10, and monstrous creatures with str 6 or higher against + 2d6 against av 10.


I think with squads of warriors, outflanking steelers, lictors, carnifexes, trygons, jump infantry, and ofcourse Ant Piles, I will be able to attack from so many different angles that my opponent will be overwhelmed or boxed in.

LKHERO
10-01-2010, 21:20
Good for you guy. I'm glad you like the new Nids.

Drakon
10-01-2010, 21:32
Haven't seen the new Codex...


if you havent seen it why complain. you might find out that what you lost isnt as good as what you got.




@CKO: good to see a positive look at the nids, sure theyve lost things but they have gained things too and if i was going to do nids i would do full assault also

Scarob
10-01-2010, 21:47
i think that the best way to look at the new Tyranids is to see them as a brand new army, and forget about the older codexes for them..... thinking like that makes me want the new codex more and even slightly giddy about making a new army list, and iv been bitterly disapointed with the new nids for months now! (some of you probalby have noticed) XD

blurrymadness
11-01-2010, 00:07
first "chimelta" now "Ant Piles" I am good with nick names

I'm sure you're the only one, heck the first one at that, who said "oh Chimelta, because it has an M in the middle of Chimera, and an M at the beginning of Metal. I bet you invented the acronym as well?

And Ant Piles? First, it won't catch on. Second? Stop the ridiculous self plugging. If I had the patience I'd give you the attention to go quote the "check out MY new sig guiz!", "I'm great at name inventing", "I'm pretty much a tactical genius for making all these threads: CKO units, why CKO does this, etc. NO ONE CARES. Stop wasting bandwidth. At best, put stuff about you in a section that isn't dedicated to tactics.

Your ideas aren't always bad (this one is), but you need to take the bias and self-aggrandizement out of them to make them approach remote-validity. It's this same reason we have 5 names for Grimnar style Terminator-"wing" lists. Wolfwing, Pupwing, Grimwing, whatever. It doesn't matter, just talk about the fraggin units.



With that, the primary thing I keep seeing about 'nids is a lot of BS no-talent tactics that don't support eachother. Simply dropping a crap ton of S3-4 shots on an enemy via a drop pod isn't enough, they desperately need support. With my standard not-tailored-at-all Ork army, simply sacrificing one turn of running could paste not only 3ish pods, but quite literally 4-6 units of 20 gaunts. This isn't even an exaggeration!

Sacrificing troops choices in pods is always a bad idea. You're either conceding 2 KPs a pop, or you're losing valuable objective holders.

Also, to all those who are straying from Carnies left and right, you need to realize that some of the biggest counters to MCs can only be countered by Boneswords or the high-S of the Carnies. Tervigons? Good luck with that. Free KP of termagaunts right before you lose him in 1-2 combats just like other mediocre-in-CC MCs. People need to get that you might have new options, but you need to use them intelligently.

Same goes for Trygons really. The only effective way I see them being used is potentially dropping in crap-tons of shooty warriors or similar. (OH I BETTER MAKE UP A NAME FOR THIS! uhm, Fire Beetle Hole in the Ground! YES!)


In short, everyone try out my tactic that I am patenting and naming and you'll all use the name of: Shooty-Warriors-From-Trygon-Tunnel-Getting-the-Drop-on-Enemies-Tactic, or SWFTTGDE. Enjoy!

Vineas
11-01-2010, 00:08
I am a very offensive minded player that likes to attack and you can either attack during the shooting phase or in the assault phase. Thats why I chose to play Guard as I think they have the best shooting phase, now I want to play an army with the best assault phase which to me can be the new Tyranids.

Reasons Why I am Playing Nids?

1.Warriors/Winged
Warriors are one of the most versatile units in the game. I know they now can be instant killed, but they can take boneswords. Which means they are a threat to all multi-wound units, especially when you consider what a pair of boneswords can do. You can also give them very dangerous weaponry giving your opponent the choice to attack them or your monstrous creatures.

2. Landing Spores
Landing Spores are like drop pods meaning that you can safely drop units without worrying about mishaps. Being able to place units near the area of need is beyond good, now I know alot of Space Marines players are asking themselves whats so good about drop pods? Well the new nids are going to be able to make what I call "The Ant Pile". 20 termagants or hormagaunts in a land spore droping anywhere they want should be a big distraction for 150 or less points! Who cares if they lurk or hunt when they are that close thats what they should do anyways, first "chimelta" now "Ant Piles" I am good with nick names. :D

3.Lictors
They can show up anywhere they want to, they then give +1 to reserve rolls, and they have teleport homers. If you play a reserve type list with deep strikers and pods you can easily decide to overwhelm one side by placing these guys in cover or better yet decide to attack the weak side. They also have str 6 which means against most vehicles they can easily pen or glance. The main thing I am excited about is hit and run, they can leave the fight to allow something more powerful to fight the fight. Then there is the whole move 3d6 in a straight line so that you can bring in more soldiers with your pheromones.

4.Trygon
With its ws it hits most things on 3's with its strength it wounds most things on 2's, and its initiative allows it to hit before thunderhammers and it has 6 wounds nuff said.


The things I will not be doing with the new codex is investing in shooty nids. I dont think 6 missle launchers(which is what hive guard basically are) is enough anti-tank to justify using up one of the elite spots. I also will not use venom cannons as they will have to be spam to be effective and monstrous creatures are to expensive to do that. However the Zoanthrope is just to good to be ignored, it is the only true way to take down land raiders effectively, however a smart player will tie it down in cc.

So how do I plan on taking down vehicles? Multiple str 5 and 6 attacks against rear av of 10, and monstrous creatures with str 6 or higher against + 2d6 against av 10.


I think with squads of warriors, outflanking steelers, lictors, carnifexes, trygons, jump infantry, and ofcourse Ant Piles, I will be able to attack from so many different angles that my opponent will be overwhelmed or boxed in.

This post wins all of the Tyranid threads and forums for it's truth and awesomeness.

Good for you for not wanting to be one of the "net listers".

Vineas
11-01-2010, 00:11
I'm sure you're the only one, heck the first one at that, who said "oh Chimelta, because it has an M in the middle of Chimera, and an M at the beginning of Metal. I bet you invented the acronym as well?

And Ant Piles? First, it won't catch on. Second? Stop the ridiculous self plugging. If I had the patience I'd give you the attention to go quote the "check out MY new sig guiz!", "I'm great at name inventing", "I'm pretty much a tactical genius for making all these threads: CKO units, why CKO does this, etc. NO ONE CARES. Stop wasting bandwidth. At best, put stuff about you in a section that isn't dedicated to tactics.

Your ideas aren't always bad (this one is), but you need to take the bias and self-aggrandizement out of them to make them approach remote-validity. It's this same reason we have 5 names for Grimnar style Terminator-"wing" lists. Wolfwing, Pupwing, Grimwing, whatever. It doesn't matter, just talk about the fraggin units.



With that, the primary thing I keep seeing about 'nids is a lot of BS no-talent tactics that don't support eachother. Simply dropping a crap ton of S3-4 shots on an enemy via a drop pod isn't enough, they desperately need support. With my standard not-tailored-at-all Ork army, simply sacrificing one turn of running could paste not only 3ish pods, but quite literally 4-6 units of 20 gaunts. This isn't even an exaggeration!

Sacrificing troops choices in pods is always a bad idea. You're either conceding 2 KPs a pop, or you're losing valuable objective holders.

Also, to all those who are straying from Carnies left and right, you need to realize that some of the biggest counters to MCs can only be countered by Boneswords or the high-S of the Carnies. Tervigons? Good luck with that. Free KP of termagaunts right before you lose him in 1-2 combats just like other mediocre-in-CC MCs. People need to get that you might have new options, but you need to use them intelligently.

Same goes for Trygons really. The only effective way I see them being used is potentially dropping in crap-tons of shooty warriors or similar. (OH I BETTER MAKE UP A NAME FOR THIS! uhm, Fire Beetle Hole in the Ground! YES!)


In short, everyone try out my tactic that I am patenting and naming and you'll all use the name of: Shooty-Warriors-From-Trygon-Tunnel-Getting-the-Drop-on-Enemies-Tactic, or SWFTTGDE. Enjoy!

What a dick-move post. Seriously. A light-hearted approach to some dude naming something and you attack him for it.

Way to be constructive.

CKO
11-01-2010, 01:19
I'm sure you're the only one, heck the first one at that, who said "oh Chimelta, because it has an M in the middle of Chimera, and an M at the beginning of Metal. I bet you invented the acronym as well?

Ask the people in the tactica imperium thread? ;)


And Ant Piles? First, it won't catch on. Second? Stop the ridiculous self plugging. If I had the patience I'd give you the attention to go quote the "check out MY new sig guiz!", "I'm great at name inventing", "I'm pretty much a tactical genius for making all these threads: CKO units, why CKO does this, etc. NO ONE CARES. Stop wasting bandwidth. At best, put stuff about you in a section that isn't dedicated to tactics.

You are commenting on most of my threads so are you following me? :D


Your ideas aren't always bad (this one is), but you need to take the bias and self-aggrandizement out of them to make them approach remote-validity. It's this same reason we have 5 names for Grimnar style Terminator-"wing" lists. Wolfwing, Pupwing, Grimwing, whatever. It doesn't matter, just talk about the fraggin units.

Oh no I hate reading his good ideas eventhough he is full of hisself.



With that, the primary thing I keep seeing about 'nids is a lot of BS no-talent tactics that don't support eachother. Simply dropping a crap ton of S3-4 shots on an enemy via a drop pod isn't enough, they desperately need support. With my standard not-tailored-at-all Ork army, simply sacrificing one turn of running could paste not only 3ish pods, but quite literally 4-6 units of 20 gaunts. This isn't even an exaggeration!

Sacrificing troops choices in pods is always a bad idea. You're either conceding 2 KPs a pop, or you're losing valuable objective holders.

Since I must break it down
1st Turn you rush your hormagaunts forward then run(3d6 pick highest)
2nd Turn your Ant Pile comes in and your hormagaunts are right behind them

Not nothing devestating but thats alot of creatures in your face, not to mention those are not even your big scary units but with their skills they can and will cause problems.


Also, to all those who are straying from Carnies left and right, you need to realize that some of the biggest counters to MCs can only be countered by Boneswords or the high-S of the Carnies. Tervigons? Good luck with that. Free KP of termagaunts right before you lose him in 1-2 combats just like other mediocre-in-CC MCs. People need to get that you might have new options, but you need to use them intelligently.

Good point the carnifex is underrated, its primary role is tank busting.


Same goes for Trygons really. The only effective way I see them being used is potentially dropping in crap-tons of shooty warriors or similar. (OH I BETTER MAKE UP A NAME FOR THIS! uhm, Fire Beetle Hole in the Ground! YES!)

You underestimate name creation if you could do that you would be a tactical genius. :p



In short, everyone try out my tactic that I am patenting and naming and you'll all use the name of: Shooty-Warriors-From-Trygon-Tunnel-Getting-the-Drop-on-Enemies-Tactic, or SWFTTGDE. Enjoy!

Who wants to put their warriors in reserve? Then if they come in before the Trygon they come in your deployment zone.

itcamefromthedeep
11-01-2010, 01:36
20 termagants or hormagaunts in a land spore droping anywhere they want should be a big distraction for 150 or less points!
As someone who has used Gaunts on many occasions, I would recommend that your Gaunts move with the army that's walking across the table.

Gaunts are very fragile in close combat. A tactical squad can walk into them and wipe them out with minimal casualties, particularly without Synapse around. In fact, without synapse, in close combat that brood is vulnerable to enemies as weak as Imperial Guard Veterans with carapace armor. You could lose the brood very quickly this way. It might be feasible with Devilgaunts (devourers) because that way they can deliver their firepower without getting shot on the way there. You'll still almost certainly lose the brood next turn, though.

If you're going to spend 150 points, I'd recommend that you spend it on a threat rather than a distraction. Few, if any, units can simply be thrown away in 40k. Invest another 20 points and bring a Mawloc if you plan to Deep Strike.

Or spend 120 points or less on a brood of Gargoyles to cover your winged Warriors.


[Lictors] can show up anywhere they want to, they then give +1 to reserve rolls, and they have teleport homers. If you play a reserve type list with deep strikers and pods you can easily decide to overwhelm one side by placing these guys in cover or better yet decide to attack the weak side. They also have str 6 which means against most vehicles they can easily pen or glance. The main thing I am excited about is hit and run, they can leave the fight to allow something more powerful to fight the fight. Then there is the whole move 3d6 in a straight line so that you can bring in more soldiers with your pheromones.
Your Trygons and Landing Spores are already quite reliable, so the teleport homer isn't all that important for them. Genestealers on the other hand could use some reliability. If I may, I think you'll do well with getting your Reserves help from the Hive Tyrant upgrade. If you want to go with the theme, make it a Winged Tyrant and Deep strike it in. Give it one set of Devourers along with the talons (the other weapon will be a psychic power), because ranged weapons will help make its presence felt on the turn it arrives. Bringing it in via Deep Strike will help to keep it alive long enough for the other units to get its benefit.


The things I will not be doing with the new codex is investing in shooty nids. I dont think 6 missle launchers(which is what hive guard basically are) is enough anti-tank to justify using up one of the elite spots. I also will not use venom cannons as they will have to be spam to be effective and monstrous creatures are to expensive to do that. However the Zoanthrope is just to good to be ignored, it is the only true way to take down land raiders effectively, however a smart player will tie it down in cc.
You don't really seem to have a problem with shooty dino-lobsters (Zoanthropes are as shooting-oriented as it gets). If you want to go with a Deep-Striking/outflanking theme though, you're right that Hive Guard might not make sense for you (no pod option, I hear).

You can help keep your Zoanthropes out of close combat by screening them with a wall of the Gaunts that you're not putting in a pod.


I think with squads of warriors, outflanking steelers, lictors, carnifexes, trygons, jump infantry, and of course Ant Piles, I will be able to attack from so many different angles that my opponent will be overwhelmed or boxed in.
So far in 5th I've used outflanking Genestealers to bring my opponent away from the table edges (or else eat the units that are in the "danger zone"). This allows the foot-slogging troops to attack a target that stays relatively still in their deployment zone. I would recommend a durable deployment presence on the table to keep your opponent from having free reign of the field in the early turns. If he's attacking something, then he'll probably have a front and back to his army, and flanks that can be exploited. Make sure his army is pointed somewhere and not just bracing for Deep Striking troops.

What I'm describing is some Warriors or Zoanthropes and some Hive Guard sitting on the table with some Gaunts in front to try to tempt the opponent into rushing across the table at you. Second turn onward you bring in the Deep Striking troops to rescue the ground forces and dismantle his army, which should be spread out with some flanks and troops exposed (side/rear armor or not in cover).

Good luck to you.

CKO
11-01-2010, 01:54
Itcamefromthedeep excellent ideas as I do not have any playing experience playing with nids, I never thought about the threat of outflanking effecting my opponents deployment. If they do deploy most of their units in the middle that will make overwhelming one side alot easier, it will also make "Ant Piles" better because I will just infiltrate genestellars, drop the Ant Piles around the same area I will be able to overwhelm one side with troops while the middle is filled with MCs or Warriors.

However I think lictors are vital for this army, as the wing warriors, gargoyles, and trygon have the option to deep strike also. I will basically have to look at my opponents deployment and figure out the best way to attack the army, however I am worried about having enough units on the field to start with.

Sigtyr
11-01-2010, 02:47
CKO I just got to say it. "Ant Pile".....REALLY? THAT'S THE BEST THING YOU COULD COME UP WITH?!

I also do not think it is a very reliable tactic wasting units like a few people have mentioned. Sure it might "distract" them but I wouldn't assume they would be too distraught with getting some KP's and killing some units. As Blurrymadness puts it you need to support your units. You could potentially have a better use for points then sacrificing.

Drakon
11-01-2010, 03:35
I'm sure you're the only one, heck the first one at that, who said "oh Chimelta, because it has an M in the middle of Chimera, and an M at the beginning of Metal. I bet you invented the acronym as well?

And Ant Piles? First, it won't catch on. Second? Stop the ridiculous self plugging. If I had the patience I'd give you the attention to go quote the "check out MY new sig guiz!", "I'm great at name inventing", "I'm pretty much a tactical genius for making all these threads: CKO units, why CKO does this, etc. NO ONE CARES. Stop wasting bandwidth. At best, put stuff about you in a section that isn't dedicated to tactics.

Your ideas aren't always bad (this one is), but you need to take the bias and self-aggrandizement out of them to make them approach remote-validity. It's this same reason we have 5 names for Grimnar style Terminator-"wing" lists. Wolfwing, Pupwing, Grimwing, whatever. It doesn't matter, just talk about the fraggin units.



With that, the primary thing I keep seeing about 'nids is a lot of BS no-talent tactics that don't support eachother. Simply dropping a crap ton of S3-4 shots on an enemy via a drop pod isn't enough, they desperately need support. With my standard not-tailored-at-all Ork army, simply sacrificing one turn of running could paste not only 3ish pods, but quite literally 4-6 units of 20 gaunts. This isn't even an exaggeration!

Sacrificing troops choices in pods is always a bad idea. You're either conceding 2 KPs a pop, or you're losing valuable objective holders.

Also, to all those who are straying from Carnies left and right, you need to realize that some of the biggest counters to MCs can only be countered by Boneswords or the high-S of the Carnies. Tervigons? Good luck with that. Free KP of termagaunts right before you lose him in 1-2 combats just like other mediocre-in-CC MCs. People need to get that you might have new options, but you need to use them intelligently.

Same goes for Trygons really. The only effective way I see them being used is potentially dropping in crap-tons of shooty warriors or similar. (OH I BETTER MAKE UP A NAME FOR THIS! uhm, Fire Beetle Hole in the Ground! YES!)


In short, everyone try out my tactic that I am patenting and naming and you'll all use the name of: Shooty-Warriors-From-Trygon-Tunnel-Getting-the-Drop-on-Enemies-Tactic, or SWFTTGDE. Enjoy!

Someone has some issues why so much hate when it should just be a discussion.

LKHERO
11-01-2010, 03:48
What's the statline for the Warriors and how good are they? What's their best configuration vs. MEQ?

CKO
11-01-2010, 04:42
CKO I just got to say it. "Ant Pile".....REALLY? THAT'S THE BEST THING YOU COULD COME UP WITH?!

I also do not think it is a very reliable tactic wasting units like a few people have mentioned. Sure it might "distract" them but I wouldn't assume they would be too distraught with getting some KP's and killing some units. As Blurrymadness puts it you need to support your units. You could potentially have a better use for points then sacrificing.

Thats just it i dont see it as a sacrificing unit, worse case scenario it is a distraction. I plan on using winged warriors and gargoyles if this thing pops in on the second turn with winged warriors and gargoyles behind it I doubt your opponent will try to beat the gaunts in cc.

The ant pile is part of the army not the main strategy, instead of paying for a tervigon that can make a whole bunch of gaunts, I rather be able to throw them down right infront of my approaching monsters, I think it will be rather demoralizing to all of a sudden have 20 extra models in your face.

TyraNoob Question: Carnifex that keep the 2 scything talons do they gain an extra attack?(other words 6 attacks on the charge)

CKO
11-01-2010, 04:47
Massive Brain Fart it should be Ant Bed not Ant Pile LOL.

itcamefromthedeep
11-01-2010, 04:47
TyraNoob Question: Carnifex that keep the 2 scything talons do they gain an extra attack?(other words 6 attacks on the charge)
Nope. No bonus for additional close combat weapons for the Dino-Lobsters from Space.

Lord Solar Plexus
11-01-2010, 08:07
Did you not know? CKO invented half the Imperial Guard codex. Air, Cavalry, transport, meltagun, heck, even Leman Russ are all ascribed to him and I hear he's working on a Dictionary of Units and Tactical Applications. ;)

But enough of our little Punch and Judy show, I hope people will listen to him. Please do me the favour and drop those Ants right on top of me! All my (heavy) flamers finally get to do something on turn 1 and who knows, I might even be able to use FRFSRF to good effect once in a while.

itcamefromthedeep
11-01-2010, 08:52
All my (heavy) flamers finally get to do something on turn 1
No such luck, I'm afraid. The Ant Piles won't drop until at least turn 2. They don't have the Drop Pod Assault rule.

oCoYoRoAoKo
11-01-2010, 09:52
well i had a game with the new dex yesterday and i can confirm that *shudder* 'ANT PILES' (ok im just going to call them drop-gaunts from now on) do indeed work. You can't however expect them to work with every kind of gaunt. In my case i used devourer-gaunts (20 to be precise), landed them next to a unit of dark reapers (murdered them), then lost a third due to a unit of spiders and proceeded to wipe a unit of dire avengers off the map. Granted they died eventually but not before they made a mess of one flank.

Incedentally, i played a DS/outflank heavy force with a Tyrant, some hive guard, podding zoans/gaunts, A pair of mawloc and a tervigon. Support is the key here. in my case i deepstruck everything on one flank so the prospect of two mawloc and zoans distracted from the presence of the gaunts.

As a side note, always re-reserve with the mawloc. It doesnt have enough sticking power especially when confronted with eldrad and bladestorming dire avengers.

Cy.

Scarob
11-01-2010, 14:15
But that's ok because White are over powered anyway because they go first, infact it's not enough of a nerf for such a broken side! Bishops and Rooks should only move two squares as well! :D:eyebrows:

and have guns!

Egaeus
11-01-2010, 19:01
if you havent seen it why complain. you might find out that what you lost isnt as good as what you got.

I would like to think that I'm getting it out of my system now so that when the Codex does arrive I can get down to the business of list building.

While it does depend on this lost-gained ratio, as I've mentioned a few times my main concern is that to make the gains there is the perception I have to go out and buy a bunch of new, expensive stuff. In the end this may not be the case (I somewhat expect that it will be).

I've also mentioned at least once already that I've been disappointed with all of the 'Nid Codexes from 3rd edition on, so I don't expect this to be much different. I do hope to be pleasantly surprised.

EDIT: Also was going to mention the fact that I haven't heard anything about a release for a Tervigon or Mycetic Spore model so at least two of the "shiny new" things in the book aren't even going to have models for a while...

CKO
11-01-2010, 19:06
well i had a game with the new dex yesterday and i can confirm that *shudder* 'ANT PILES' (ok im just going to call them drop-gaunts from now on) do indeed work. You can't however expect them to work with every kind of gaunt. In my case i used devourer-gaunts (20 to be precise), landed them next to a unit of dark reapers (murdered them), then lost a third due to a unit of spiders and proceeded to wipe a unit of dire avengers off the map. Granted they died eventually but not before they made a mess of one flank.

Ok I had a massive brainfart that day it should be "Ant Bed" not pile :eyebrows:. However next time you do play with an Ant Bed unit try positioning them in a spot that in the next turn your other bugs are right behind them providing a counter assault unit.

Souleater
11-01-2010, 19:58
or 'Dead Dog on a Termite Mound' in honour of Mr Pratchett.

This new codex does feel like a very big shake up. That's unsettling but I'm quite looking forward to trying to work out what's good for me and what isn't.

airmang
11-01-2010, 20:03
Nope, i like "Ant Piles", gonna use it, and you can't stop me.

I myself am going to be trying them out with some devourer-gants myself this week!

Shadowfax
11-01-2010, 20:18
Maybe it's a regional terminology thing, but "ant pile" and "ant bed" both sound extremely awkward to me.

Woulda gone with "anthill" myself...

Kurisu313
11-01-2010, 20:50
Well I've googled what the hell an ant bed is, and we don't call them that in england, so it's not gonna catch on.

Drop-Gaunt for the win!

Scarob
11-01-2010, 21:24
I would like to think that I'm getting it out of my system now so that when the Codex does arrive I can get down to the business of list building.

While it does depend on this lost-gained ratio, as I've mentioned a few times my main concern is that to make the gains there is the perception I have to go out and buy a bunch of new, expensive stuff. In the end this may not be the case (I somewhat expect that it will be).

I've also mentioned at least once already that I've been disappointed with all of the 'Nid Codexes from 3rd edition on, so I don't expect this to be much different. I do hope to be pleasantly surprised.

EDIT: Also was going to mention the fact that I haven't heard anything about a release for a Tervigon or Mycetic Spore model so at least two of the "shiny new" things in the book aren't even going to have models for a while...

True, i dont like the idea of soo many new models coming out, iv said it before and il say it again, GW just dont think anymore! that and the fact that price increases are an insult to gamers everywhere! Raveners in plastic = good, it works better that way but £27 for enough to make 3 with a couple of spare parts, thats way too steep...... they should be the same price as the Warriors! they have more options, they have more spures that use more plastic.... but theyr £9 more expensive..... whats the £9 for? extra air?


Maybe it's a regional terminology thing, but "ant pile" and "ant bed" both sound extremely awkward to me.

Woulda gone with "anthill" myself...

mmmm anthill! *drools* but not tyranidy enough, instead of "Hes just made an Anthill" having it as "Hes just made a Sploosh of it all" XD

gorgon
11-01-2010, 21:26
It shouldn't be an "ant hill" anyway.

GANT HILL.

Scarob
11-01-2010, 21:35
It shouldn't be an "ant hill" anyway.

GANT HILL.

hehehe XD a Gill

Shadowfax
11-01-2010, 21:41
"Bee hive" is another alternative.

Especially if you convert your Spore Pod outta one of these:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41M90SNR7VL._SL500_AA280_PIbundle-6,TopRight,0,0_AA280_SH20_.jpg

Scarob
11-01-2010, 21:46
oo oo oo how about a Hive Hill?

Angelwing
11-01-2010, 23:04
I will be able to attack from so many different angles that my opponent will be overwhelmed or boxed in.

This has been the basic tyranid strategy since, well, the beginning....
Now we have lots of new toys and ideas to try and realise that strategy.
Welcome to the hive mind CKO. You'll never leave...
*rubs claws together*

CKO
11-01-2010, 23:35
This has been the basic tyranid strategy since, well, the beginning....
Now we have lots of new toys and ideas to try and realise that strategy.
Welcome to the hive mind CKO. You'll never leave...
*rubs claws together*

With my hive we will finally claim the Segmentum Solar. :evilgrin:

Killgore
11-01-2010, 23:40
Im liking the idea of these space pod nuggets, Hive Fleet Cabbage will be requiring some!, infact i might as well use proper cabbages untill I make some model ones for me drop pods.

Egaeus
12-01-2010, 07:57
True, i dont like the idea of soo many new models coming out, iv said it before and il say it again, GW just dont think anymore! that and the fact that price increases are an insult to gamers everywhere! Raveners in plastic = good, it works better that way but £27 for enough to make 3 with a couple of spare parts, thats way too steep...... they should be the same price as the Warriors! they have more options, they have more spures that use more plastic.... but theyr £9 more expensive..... whats the £9 for? extra air?

Don't get me wrong here...having the army getting a bunch of new stuff is great. I just don't like the perception that some of these things (Tervigons and Trygons are oft-spoken of) are going to be necessary to be competetive (not that I'm competitive...I actually haven't played my 'Nids in a long while and am hoping the Codex gets me fired up). And even that may not come to pass...but from all the changes I've heard it does have the feel that if you don't use the new stuff your army is going to be sub-par.

Just to reiterate...when the new Marine Codex came out I could use my current Marine army just fine (they're based on Black Templars however, but could still make use of the Marine Codex with no problems at all). I don't recall hearing too much fuss when the Guard Codex came out about having to redo ones' army from scratch (and even then had I wanted I could have fielded my Tank Company as a legal army if I wanted to paint up a second squad of Vets...it wouldn't be super-effective, but I could use it). Again when the Wolves came out I could have easily used my Marines as Wolves with little issue. This is the first Codex (at least in a while) where the perception is "you can't just play your old army" (and for the record I never played 'Nidzilla...I have two Carnifexes, one 2nd ed Screamer-Killer and one 3rd Ed with Talons and a Gun).

At the end of the day this may be a good thing. Change can be good. I hope to be pleasantly surprised by the Codex.

I agree that the Ravener prices are a bit ridiculous, but then again I'm somewhat old school and remember when Raveners were $9US @...and even at that time they seemed expensive...

librerian_samae
12-01-2010, 09:54
Bizarely enough I can still use my old army straight up as it was.

In fact now it has even improved!

It was 1500 with a measely two scoring units, now with the change to warriors being troops (and using my babyphant as a tervigon) it is 1500 with 5 troops!

Plus I can now actualy add in that trygon(or use it as a mawloc not sure which yet) I have always wanted but never got round to at 2000pts :)

The Only thing I'm umming and arring over is weather to use my gun fex as is (twin devourer and venom cannon) or spend a couple more points and turn him into a Tyranno(sarus)fex.

Plus another bonus I can finaly find a use for my huge balrog winged bat leader warrior as a parasite of mortex.

Good times in all, as now I can have a nice double threat army of tough slow shooty guys with gaunt spawning and then a sucker punch of deepstriking/outflanking flanker hard hitters.

So pah to all the nay sayers, my nids just got way more fun and have been given more tricks to suprise people with, zoan's being improved and able to follow a trygon out of its hole sounds tasty, then there is my devilishly cunning suprise which Im going to open up a thread on in tactics once the dex is out :evilgrin:

Broken Loose
12-01-2010, 10:03
The closest example we have to the pendulum of the Tyranids codex is the shifting balance between Guardians and Dire Avengers over the various Eldar codices. Even that, though, was nothing like the "army deleted and replaced with an entirely different army" blow the Tyranids are taking right now.

Souleater
12-01-2010, 11:21
I agree that the Ravener prices are a bit ridiculous, but then again I'm somewhat old school and remember when Raveners were $9US @...and even at that time they seemed expensive...

I hear you. When I got mine and saw just how much sprue space is taken up with the chest weapon variants I was slightly dismayed - they could easily have put one...maybe even two at a stretch... more Raveners on those sprues. :(

dangermouse425
12-01-2010, 11:38
The whole Warriors/Ravenors price thing confuses me, it's like teh High Elves' [£18 for 8 knights (Silver Helms) and or £35 for 5 knights (Dragon Princes)]
But this isn't a pricing thread, so I'll cease my ranting.

I'm buying a new box of 3 Ravenors, using my old Red Terror model as the "boss ravenor" and a spare metal one I have lying about to bulk it out. 5 Ravenors in a brood, happy days.

Can't wait for Saturday!

Scarob
12-01-2010, 17:29
The whole Warriors/Ravenors price thing confuses me, it's like teh High Elves' [£18 for 8 knights (Silver Helms) and or £35 for 5 knights (Dragon Princes)]
But this isn't a pricing thread, so I'll cease my ranting.

true this is not a price rant thread....... someone should make one for the people to complain :shifty:



I'm buying a new box of 3 Ravenors, using my old Red Terror model as the "boss ravenor" and a spare metal one I have lying about to bulk it out. 5 Ravenors in a brood, happy days.

Can't wait for Saturday!

Id just make 3 Raveners out of the Warrior box and spare genestealer arms, plus im hoping if the warriors can take boneswords now, there should be some new warrior sprues coming out..... after the no existant spcial characters and some of the new stuff!!

dangermouse425
12-01-2010, 18:23
true this is not a price rant thread....... someone should make one for the people to complain :shifty:



Id just make 3 Raveners out of the Warrior box and spare genestealer arms, plus im hoping if the warriors can take boneswords now, there should be some new warrior sprues coming out..... after the no existant spcial characters and some of the new stuff!!

Good plan, IF I had spare genestealer arms ;)

Vepr
12-01-2010, 18:43
The closest example we have to the pendulum of the Tyranids codex is the shifting balance between Guardians and Dire Avengers over the various Eldar codices. Even that, though, was nothing like the "army deleted and replaced with an entirely different army" blow the Tyranids are taking right now.

Yeah Tyranids for better or worse are pretty much a different army now. I can see why people are upset because it is like playing another army in some ways. I think nids are going be alright in the long run and but I am not particularly impressed with this codex. It is interesting that people that play other armies are saying "This looks like a good codex." instead of "Geez that is cheese!!!" Maybe they are glad nidzilla will not be as prevalent but I think it is more. "None of this looks scary and look at the prices."

Egaeus
12-01-2010, 18:52
Bizarely enough I can still use my old army straight up as it was.

In fact now it has even improved!

It was 1500 with a measely two scoring units, now with the change to warriors being troops (and using my babyphant as a tervigon) it is 1500 with 5 troops!

The thing is, if you're using something in your army as something new then you aren't using your old army "straight up".

I highly suspect that I will be able to use my old army as it was without too much grief (Zoanthropes becoming Elites may cause issues even if Warriors become Troops as I liked to fill all my Troop slots). I would guess that a lot of non-'Nidzilla builds wouldn't have to change too much if they didn't want to...heck, from what I hear 'Nidzilla lists aren't gone either, they just have to play it differently ('Fex broods as opposed to a bunch of individuals). Although with Carnifexes going up in points and becoming less effective there's more incentive not to reinvent that particular list.


The closest example we have to the pendulum of the Tyranids codex is the shifting balance between Guardians and Dire Avengers over the various Eldar codices. Even that, though, was nothing like the "army deleted and replaced with an entirely different army" blow the Tyranids are taking right now.

I don't know that it's going to be that big a "blow"...it's not like they replaced everything in the list or completely reworked the stats. As I just mentioned it's likely a lot of armies can get by with what they have...just that a lot of the new stuff looks really nice to give additional bonuses/effects.

From what I've heard, if there is a significant blow it's going to be that GW really didn't address some of the fundamental complaints about the army's performance: Gaunts still suck in CC due to No Retreat!, Mid-size creatures are still vulnerable to heavy weapons (more so now) and a lot of stuff is just too expensive for what it can do.

Now we do have units that can buff other units so that may be their answer to the first issue (but requires you to field those buffing units and maneuver them in a particular way). Have to see how the change from EW to an extra wound works out but I don't have great expectations there. And a lot of things getting more expensive while from what I've heard not really too much got reduced in price really doesn't help with the last issue.

Well just a few more days until I can see how things all shake out.

Max_Killfactor
12-01-2010, 21:34
I like the new Nids.

Might finally break my wait for the new DE codex. I want an army with no vehicles so I can't be tempted to go mech, and I love CC. Nids seems like a good choice.

If I can get the book Friday, I'll probably build a small force.

CKO
13-01-2010, 02:18
To be honest guys, having all those options available to every troop choice instead of 1-2special weapons then you get what the nids have whenever they re-make the guns.

CapnBob
13-01-2010, 04:33
Wheee, looking at the codex now, not terribly happy or impressed. I'm sure I can put together an effective army with it, but I just hate how much the flavor of it has changed or been dropped.

It feels like this is a codex written by someone who hasn't been playing Tyranids for very long and doesn't have a very firm grasp on the history or the fluff. In fact, Cruddace contradicts himself in his own phrasing of how tyranid psychic powers work. Do Zoanthropes draw power from the warp or is it just energy created by the hive mind? Cruddace can't make up his mind on the subject, apparently, saying that they don't draw power from the warp and then he later says that's where their power DOES come from.

I'm also really really really not a fan of his Cylon-ripoff additions to the fluff. I want to play Tyranids, not Necrons. Bleh. He got a few things right, but every one step forward is accompanied by two steps back. I'll keep this codex around to use with players who want to go full 5th edition, but with friends I'll either stick with 4th edition or make a house rules edition that's closer to what my group was hoping for.

Vepr
13-01-2010, 04:37
Wheee, looking at the codex now, not terribly happy or impressed. I'm sure I can put together an effective army with it, but I just hate how much the flavor of it has changed or been dropped.

It feels like this is a codex written by someone who hasn't been playing Tyranids for very long and doesn't have a very firm grasp on the history or the fluff. In fact, Cruddace contradicts himself in his own phrasing of how tyranid psychic powers work. Do Zoanthropes draw power from the warp or is it just energy created by the hive mind? Cruddace can't make up his mind on the subject, apparently, saying that they don't draw power from the warp and then he later says that's where their power DOES come from.

I'm also really really really not a fan of his Cylon-ripoff additions to the fluff. I want to play Tyranids, not Necrons. Bleh. He got a few things right, but every one step forward is accompanied by two steps back. I'll keep this codex around to use with players who want to go full 5th edition, but with friends I'll either stick with 4th edition or make a house rules edition that's closer to what my group was hoping for.

Yeah. I kind of feel the same way. I would not say it is bad just blah. Lack luster and it does not appear they put much thought into it in my opinion.