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View Full Version : Bringing back foot troops to the WOC



x1xx1x
08-01-2010, 03:02
So many of the army lists I see for the WOC are cavalry based with lots of marauder cavalry and knights neglecting the powerful but slow Warriors and chosen.

Thought I would try and design an all Infantry 2,000 point army for the WOC and see what it looked like.

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Heroes
Exalted Hero
Shield, Runesword, Slaanesh
170 pts

Exalted Hero
Battle Standard, Doom Totem, Shield
190 Pts

Sorcerer
2 Dispel Scrolls
135 Pts

Festus
185 pts

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Core Troops
11 Warriors
Great Weapons, Musician, Slaanesh
203 pts

11 Warriors
Great Weapons, Musician, Slaanesh
203 pts

14 Marauders
Slaanesh, Flails, Light Armor, Musician, Chieftain
106 pts

15 Marauders
Slaanesh, Flails, Light Armor, Musician, Chieftain
112 pts

15 Marauders
Slaanesh, Flails, Light Armor, Musician, Chieftain
112 pts

5 Warhounds
30 Pts

5 Warhounds
30 Pts

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Special
5 Forsaken
90 pts

5 Forsaken
90 pts

3 Ogres
Chaos Armor, Great Weapons, Slaanesh, Musician
170 pts

3 Ogres
Chaos Armor, Great Weapons, Slaanesh, Musician
170 pts

Should be 1,994 Points total

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/7954/1achaos.jpg (http://img163.imageshack.us/i/1achaos.jpg/)

2,000 Points is not great for a stacked infantry army, up to 3,000 you could try focus a roman style legions checkerboard tactic with 4-6 units of 12 strong Warriors with great weapons backed up by small punchy units of marauders with flails.

Slightly unusual to have a 2,000 pt WOC list with 15 units / characters available for deployment

Lordsaradain
08-01-2010, 06:42
Lose the forsaken, they suck, and get some chosen or more ogres instead. Your ogres have M6, hit harder and are more survivable.

You need bigger units, marauders will only win combats on static CR so take two marauder units of 25 (or 24 if you want to put a character in there).

I think giving Warriors great weapons is a waste, since then you lose out on their great Initiative. I'd go for halberds, and sheilds are a must too, at least to give them some more shooting protection.

Also, why give the marauders light armour? Seems like a waste of points IMO.

Leogun_91
08-01-2010, 06:48
You need bigger units, marauders will only win combats on static CR so take two marauder units of 25 (or 24 if you want to put a character in there).They work good as meatshields at that size though something improved by MoS, reading this list leads me to see this as their use.

Lordsaradain
08-01-2010, 07:10
They work good as meatshields at that size though something improved by MoS, reading this list leads me to see this as their use.

True, didnt notice untill now that they dont have standards. Still, drop the light armour on them.

x1xx1x
08-01-2010, 07:14
some valid points, but forsaken are movement 6 as well and can get the flank charges on units that the ogres engage head on.

If your going to take Chaos Warriors there are 2 options, defensive unit (hand weapon and shield) or offensive unit (great weapons) - Halberds are not really an option, as their role is to win combat by killing people, you ensure you kill more people with great weapons.

2 Ranks of 6 Warriors = A lot!!! of strength 6 attacks, who cares if they attack last, they still have a 4+ armor save and will mince almost any enemy engaging them head on. (especially the unit with festus, poisoned attacks and a 5+ regeneration)

There was an excellent post I found somewhere about chaos warriors and he had done all the math for what weapons work best and Great weapons came out as a big!!!!! winner over the other options. I will try find it somewhere and post link here.

The marauder units in this list are acting as flank chargers for units the warriors engage. Even if they engage head on, their flails should cause some damage in return.

Decent point about the armor, maybe worth dropping it and taking more warhounds but I like all my units to have some sort of save.

x1xx1x
08-01-2010, 07:28
Ok I found the post that explains the math of the Warriors weapon choices, I cant find the origional post from maiden maniac, but a guy quoted it in another post.

Can find the whole list and explanation of playing chaos warriors here - http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/warriors-chaos/184826-chaos-warriors-underused.html - Scroll down to the 3rd or 4th reply

The basics of the weapon explanation is below:-


Combat Simulation(aka how will my unit of choice do on the field of battle):

Combat will be simulated against 4 different units. The Warriors are assumed to be 12 strong, have Full Command and fighting with the equipment stated. A special note will also be mentioned for MoK on each example. Warriors are always assumed to be ranked for maximum attacks. Champions in either units are always assumed to die last of the fighting rank members.

The 4 victim types and their relevant stats.
1.Empire Swordmen (WS4 T3 4+ AS unit, LD7 , 20 strong w Full Command), basically standard decent fighting units of many armies.

2.Dwarf Ironbreakers (WS5 T4 2+AS unit, LD9, 20 strong w Full Command), one of the hardest nuts in the game to crack while talking infantry.

3.Empire Cavalry (WS4 T3 1+ AS unit, LD8, 10 strong w Full Command), fairly standard cavalry unit.

4.Blood Knights (WS5 T4 2+AS unit, Undeads, 5 strong w Full Command), the hardest hitting cavalry in the game.


You charge Victims Mk1(Empire Swordmen).
Hand Weapon and Shield will kill 3,85 victims, taking 0,03 wounds back , thus winning combat with 0,82 pts. MoK will make this 5,63 victims dead and 0 losses instead which leads to a win with 2,63 pts.

Additional Hand Weapon will kill 5,63 and will just like the MoK example above win by 2,63 pts. MoK with XHW will kill 7,4 victims, winning combat with 4,4.

Halberds will kill 6,02 humans, no hits in return, and win by 3,02 pts. MoK will see 8,8 victims fall and win by 5,8pts.

Great Weapons will kill 7,22 victims, no hits in return and win by 4,22. MoK will see 10,56 victims fall and the win go to its top here at 9,56(you have outnumber here too!).

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Victims Mk1(Empire Swordmen) charges you.
Hand Weapon and Shield suffers 0,17 wounds and deals 3,75 wounds back, winning combat by 0,52 pts. MoK will suffer 0,17 dead too but kill 5,48 victims and win by 2,48 pts.

Additional Hand Weapon suffers 0,5 wounds before dealing 5,19 wounds back which leaves you ahead by 1,69 pts. MoK suffers the same 0,5 dead before felling 6,81 victims and winning combat by 3,31.

Halberds suffers 0,5 wounds before dealing 5,56 lethal blows back, winning by 2,06. MoK will raise the kills to 8,1 and win by 4,6.

Great Weapons suffers 0,5 wounds before dealing 6,66 (actually 6,67 but metal rules so thats a lot more fun to write!) killing blows. Combat is won by 3,16. MoK will increase victim-count to 9,72 which wins you outnumbering again and combat by 8,72!

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You charge Victims Mk2(Dwarf Ironbreakers).
Hand Weapon and Shield will kill 1,08 stunties while taking 0,41 wounds in return. Combat is lost by 2,33 pts. MoK increases the number of victims to 1,58 and takes 0,37 wounds back. Combat is lost by 1,79 this time and you lose frenzy, thus you end at the non MoK numbers from now on.

Additional Hand Weapon claims 1,58 victims and takes 0,74 wounds back. Combat is once lost by 2,16. MoK increases the kill-count to 2,08 Dwarfs while suffering 0,65 casualties and losing combat with 1,57 and once again ending their frenzy.

Halberds will kill 2,17 victims and suffer 0,64 losses in return. Combat is lost by 1,47. MoK polishes the numbers to 3,17 decapitated Dwarfs and the losses to 0,47 Warriors which means combat is lost by 0,3 pts. With very little above average luck your Warriors will win combat here the first important round which will make this a long, but in the end won, grind-fest.

Great Weapons will kill 3,61 victims and suffer 0,4 dead in return which means that you won combat by 0,21 pts! MoK will change the numbers into 5,28 butchered beardlings and no lost wound in return, thus winning combat with 2,28 pts!

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Victims Mk2(Dwarf Ironbreakers) charges you (eey! Stranger things has happened, honest).
Hand Weapon and Shield suffers 0,5 wounds and deals 1 wound back, losing combat by 2,5. MoK takes same losses but deals 1,46 wounds back, which leaves combat lost by 2,04, robbing you of frenzy for the rest of the game.

Additional Hand Weapon suffers 1 wound before dealing 1,33 wounds back. Combat is lost by 2,67. MoK increases the numbers of dead Dwarfs into 1,75 but combat is still lost by 2,25, once again the Dwarfs beat sense into your Warriors.

Halberds suffers 1 wound before killing 1,83 victims and lose combat by 2,17. MoK increases the number of dead Dwarfs to 2,67. Combat is still lost though by 1,33 and your frenzy is gone.

Great Weapons suffers 1 wound before dealing 3,06 wounds back, ending combat at a loss of 0,94. MoK boosts the butchered dwarf number to 4,44 and actually wins combat by 0,44, yay!

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You charge Victims Mk3(Empire Cavalry).
Hand Weapon and Shield will kill 1,11 Knights while taking 0,25 wounds in return from both riders and steeds which will lose you combat by 0,14. MoK increases your numbers to 1,63 dead Knights with 0,21 dead Warriors back and combat is won by 0,42 pts.

Additional Hand Weapon claims 1,63 victims and takes 0,64 wounds back, narrowly losing combat by 0,01 pts! MoK will swing the balance to the Warriors favour with 2,15 victims killed for 0,56 losses back, ending combat with the Warriors winning by 0,59 pts.

Halberds will kill 2,78 victims and suffer 0,46 losses in return which gives a win by 1,32 pts. MoK will increase the difference to 4,07 killed Knights and receiving 0,24 wounds back. Combat is this time won by 2,83 pts

Great Weapons will kill 4,17 victims and suffer 0,22 dead in return which results in a win by 2,95. MoK will change this to an even bigger win with 6,11 killed and no wounds caused in return, the result ends with you winning with 7,11 pts (once again you killed enough to get outnumber)!

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Victims Mk3(Empire Cavalry) charges you.
Hand Weapon and Shield suffers 1,14 wounds and deals 0,7 wounds back and combat is lost by 1,44 pts. MoK also suffers 1,14 wounds but deals 1,38 wounds in return, combat is still lost however by 0,76 and the frenzy-fun is over.

Additional Hand Weapon suffers 2,09 wounds before dealing 1,17 wounds back. The victims stays superior and win by 1,92. MoK sees 1,53 victims fall before their blades, but combat, and frenzy, is still lost, this time by 1,56.

Halberds suffers 2,09 wounds before dealing 2 wounds back, losing combat with 1,09 pts. MoK changes this to 2,91 killed Knights, ending combat at a loss by 0,18, which can be a win with only a little luck.

Great Weapons receives 2,09 wounds before killing 3 victims back. Combat is still lost though, but only by 0,09 pts, also clearly winnable with a little luck! MoK swings the great axes for the win, killing 4,37 victims back, and this time the Warriors win combat by 1,28 pts!

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You charge Victims Mk4(Blood Knights).
Hand Weapon and Shield will kill 1,25 riding dead while taking 2,67 wounds in return, winning combat with 0,58. MoK increases the number of victims slain to 1,83 before suffering 2,28 dead in return which leads to a win with 1,55.

Additional Hand Weapon claims 1,83 victims and takes 3,98 losses back while charging(!), combat is lost by 0,15 while charging. MoK boosts your kills to 2,42 riding vampires before suffering 3,29 wounds in return. Combat is won by 1,13 pts.

Halberds knocks 2,5 riding dead down and suffer 3,19 losses in return, leaving combat result at a win with 1,31. MoK will enhance the results to 3,67 kills for 1,83 wounds back. Combat is won with 3,84, quite likely crumbling the rest.

Great Weapons will kill 4,17 fanged riders and suffer 1,25 dead in return and combat is won by 4,92. MoK wrecks greater havoc with 6,11 killed, nothing left to fight back and a neat overrun move!

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Victims Mk4(Blood Knights) charges you(auch time!).
Hand Weapon and Shield suffers 7,64 wounds and deals nothing back since the whole front is dead. Yes this was the “defensive” set-up that “only” suffered 7,64 wounds, I think we can stop here...

Conclusion:
Chaos Warriors must kill themselves to victory against most other units, and this is best done with the biggest possible weapon, the Great Weapon. Nothing compares to the killing power of those Great Weapons and this difference is even more noticeable with MoK. The higher the S of the attack the better it scales with more number of attacks. Against lighter armoured opponents the Halberd can achieve roughly the same results, but once the targets either becomes cavalry, has T4, or even worse a combination of the 2 then Halberds falter too. Additional Hand Weapons are always the worst option, the only time it will be “best” is against non-armoured T2 models(zombies), that is nothing to design units for though.
Another interesting detail is that against many opponents its better to just suck his caused wounds up the hard way, and kill him back properly. This also holds even more true with MoK. You will lose Frenzy as soon as you lose combat, so why not make the most out of it while you can? As a sidenote it should be understood that Warriors by no means are invincible in CC, just like the Blood Knight example showed these units are vulnerable to hard hitting shock troops, so guard them well.
Mark of Khorne is a huge boon when calculating killing power, however frenzied units can easily be baited by flyers/skirmishers/fast cavalry/whatnot. If the unit is used good it can turn the tide of battle alone, if not controlled the whole unit can be useless the whole battle, baited far away from the action. MoS or MoK are the 2 marks to go for, unless you go for a themed mono-god-list, pick the one that fits your style of play the best.
The humble Warbanner is a really solid addition to a Warrior unit, 1 SCR for the same price as a Collar of Khorne is always worth it, even more so when your ranks costs minimum 80 pts each!

The favoured Chaos Warrior unit should look somewhat like this:
12 Warriors with Shields and Great Weapons, MoS/MoK, Full Command, Warbanner (281/301 pts) .

Obfuscate
08-01-2010, 10:41
For this kind of army where the special slots are going to be troops the Forsaken are actually a good choice. For their hitting power they are so cheap.

Lordsaradain
08-01-2010, 11:11
Give your warriors sheilds, they are more valuable than your marauders, so unless you know that you are facing no shooting or magic, you really should spend points the points on them.

danny-d-b
08-01-2010, 11:32
For this kind of army where the special slots are going to be troops the Forsaken are actually a good choice. For their hitting power they are so cheap.

yep but they are the worst choice in the book


compaire 10 forsaken (5x2) with 3 ogers with Great weapons, chaos armour and mark of khone

forsaken charge- do on average 15 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 3.3 failed armour saves- 1 dead oger
ogers attack back 8 attacks, 4 hits, 3.3 wounds, forsaken outnumber, have no ranks so they win by 1 (ogers lose frenzy, but only realy neaded to kill 1 more)

2nd round
forsaken 15 attacks, 5 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 3.3 failed armour saves
ogers attack back 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, forsaken outnumber, have no ranks so they win by 1

will take them 3 turns of combat

if ogers charge
12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 5 dead forsaken
no attacks back from the forsaken at all, they lose frezny and lose by 5
if they some how mannage to stay
2nd round
Forsaken 10 attacks, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.66 failed armour saves
ogers 12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 5 dead forsaken


in other words they need the charge not to become mush!

I'm sure if you ran them against above races (swordsmen, ironbreakers and the 2 units of knights) the ogers would win

Leogun_91
08-01-2010, 14:32
Ok I found the post that explains the math of the Warriors weapon choices, I cant find the origional post from maiden maniac, but a guy quoted it in another post.He doesn't take into account fighting after the first round which is where halberds start to get their value back, the first round of combat they are worse than greatweapons but in later rounds they are better as you get to smash away your opponent before he gets to smash you (most of the time), in order to compare later rounds one can compare (you charge X with halberds versus X charges you with Greatweapons and get it fairly accurate)

Jind_Singh
08-01-2010, 15:46
For sure lose the armour on the marauders - wasted points that would be better off spent getting more warhounds - warhounds are the key to any succesful WoC army - meat sheilds, charge redirectors, they are just fantastic investment of points. It also allows you to flood the table with deployments so you can force opponents to deploy their better units before you commit - also great for breaking flanks with their high unit strength.
If your going to make a meat sheild unit of marauders I'd be inclined to grab just a musician and make the units 12 strong - the points you save allow for more hounds.
Otherwise it's a good infantary list - personally i dont mind the forsaken, they look good, true they are not the most cost effective units in the book but I include them from time-to-time as I dont care about maximizing effectiveness sometimes, I just go with a theme.
Besides, ogres paint a 'shoot me' target on them, were people tend to ignore forsaken until its too late! BAM!

RGB
09-01-2010, 01:41
I'm sure if you ran them against above races (swordsmen, ironbreakers and the 2 units of knights) the ogers would win

Actually, since you're hitting on 4s and the (empire) knights still have a 4+ save after that, charging them is highly contingent on what they have and how many they are. It somewhat difficult for 3 or even 4 ogres (even with the MoK) to win significantly vs. 10 knights with full command, but the odds become much better against the supporting 5-6 man kind of unit.

Knights charging you should be avoided if at all possible, however. Even 5 of them are perfectly capable of killing an ogre on the charge and you have a hard time coming back from that.

This doesn't mean the Forsaken are better, however. If you must choose between the two, stick with Ogres.