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The Base
09-01-2010, 04:52
Codex, rule book updates are not in my view an attempt to scam money from the player base.

I will justify this 3 ways.

1. You already have the old rules, no one is forcing you to upgrade. Any upgrade is just that, you are paying for improvement, not just rejigging.

2. Players may choose to just download/photo copy the rules if they feel they aren't getting their monies worth.

3. The games that have generated most money have had rather few rules changes. Look at say a game like monopoly, made tons of money but had almost no rule changes nor any real upgrade drive.

GW chooses to expand on current games to make them better and thus appeal to a wider range of people. This is why the upgrade. GW most popular games are the ones that get the vast majority of the upgrades, because they are the games people demand the upgrades for. If say blood blow was more popular you would see it get more upgrades, it's that simple.

doombanner
09-01-2010, 05:57
Codex, rule book updates are not in my view an attempt to scam money from the player base.

Right, but your forgetting that GW has repeatedly said they are not a game company, but they are a toy soldier company. They are in the business of producing and selling toy soldiers.

Completely coincidentally, we went from a smale-scale skirmish game, Rogue Trader, to 40K2, a skirmish-ish small battles game, to 40K3 and beyond, a mass battle game that has been supplanted by the Apocalypse rules.

Look at what a WFB army was in any ancient issue of WD, and look at what one looks like today. Compare the cost of the figures, on a per-model basis.

Look at the changes to the rules of rank frontage.

If you're a company that makes the vast majority of its profit on the sale of figures, you're rolling in dough with each new edition change, regardless whether or not the rules sold well.

They are not "scamming" anything, it's a concerted effort to update the rules every four years or so, and make a ton of money by doing so, since each new edition kick-starts the sale of a new batch of toy soldiers. They do it every four years or so, alternating 40K and Fantasy in turn. It is clearly a core component of their business plan.

~Doom Banner

DDogwood
09-01-2010, 06:13
Codex, rule book updates are not in my view an attempt to scam money from the player base.

I don't think they're an attempt to "scam" anyone, but they are DEFINITELY more about generating revenue than improving the game.


1. You already have the old rules, no one is forcing you to upgrade. Any upgrade is just that, you are paying for improvement, not just rejigging.

Realistically, it's immensely harder to find opponents when you want to use an "old" army book or codex, even if the new one is more powerful. Most tournaments also require the latest version of the rules. It's even harder to find people willing to play an older version of the game, and it's often hard to find copies of the older rules. So, even if you have opponents who like using old rules, you are stuck with a diminishing pool of opponents.


2. Players may choose to just download/photo copy the rules if they feel they aren't getting their monies worth.

Of course, that's copyright infringement, and is illegal almost everywhere. You'll notice that GW includes copyright notices in all of their books, and doesn't provide legal electronic versions.


3. The games that have generated most money have had rather few rules changes. Look at say a game like monopoly, made tons of money but had almost no rule changes nor any real upgrade drive.

Games like Monopoly (and chess, and go, and poker) are in the public domain - nobody owns them anymore, so it's impossible for one company to make all the money from them. A board game like Monopoly is also a stand-alone purchase; for $20-30, you have a complete game. A minis game usually requires the purchase of hundreds of dollars worth of minis by each player. So, it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison.

GW is pretty open about the fact that the publication of a new version of the rules, an army book, or a codex creates a spike in sales for that army. GW makes most of its money off of the sale of miniatures, not rules, so they support the "core" games that require the greatest number of miniatures to play. The rules updates are legitimate - they aren't changing things simply for the sake of changing them, IMO - but it would be bad business to be unaware of the fact that rule updates drive miniature sales. If you look at the frequency of rule updates, they tend to be the most frequent for the most popular armies and games, because those have the greatest chance to drive revenue.

simonr1978
09-01-2010, 08:16
DDogwood has pretty much covered everything I wanted to say nicely and neatly.

I find it hilarious that you think players can just chose to use pirated material btw, there's not a single gaming club or store I've been involved in in the last 18 years where if you turned up with a folder full of photocopies and print outs that would not be to say the least frowned upon. You might get a warning if it was the first offence.

Of course it's about making money and selling figures, it's not a scam though and honestly I don't think I've heard anyone here seriously making that accusation, but if GW didn't think there was money to be made re-doing army books and rules then 40K players would still be playing Rogue Trader.

If Bloodbowl, or for that matter any of the Specialist Games range generated the sort of revenue that 40K or Fantasy did, you can bet that GW would be milking that for all it's worth.

Condottiere
09-01-2010, 10:56
At a minimum, you need a legal hard copy for the army you're bringing along; having the current BRB is not a bad idea, though using the BRB6 for throwing at rules lawyers is permitted and still in good taste.

Grimstonefire
09-01-2010, 11:10
Codex, rule book updates are not in my view an attempt to scam money from the player base.

I will justify this 3 ways.

1. You already have the old rules, no one is forcing you to upgrade. Any upgrade is just that, you are paying for improvement, not just rejigging.

2. Players may choose to just download/photo copy the rules if they feel they aren't getting their monies worth.

3. The games that have generated most money have had rather few rules changes. Look at say a game like monopoly, made tons of money but had almost no rule changes nor any real upgrade drive.

GW chooses to expand on current games to make them better and thus appeal to a wider range of people. This is why the upgrade. GW most popular games are the ones that get the vast majority of the upgrades, because they are the games people demand the upgrades for. If say blood blow was more popular you would see it get more upgrades, it's that simple.

1. Saying GW is trying to 'scam money' is illogical. They are a business that has to sell something, they couldn't just release one set of rules and never update them again? You are right, people don't HAVE to buy the new book, but if their gaming group play with the new rules it would put them in a position of having nobody to play.

2. Photocopying is possible, and probably goes on a lot. Downloading is illegal (in breech of copyrights)

3.
The games that have generated most money have had rather few rules changes.
... Right... So that's why warhammer has a massive rulebook and monopoly doesn't?

simonr1978
09-01-2010, 11:36
2. Photocopying is possible, and probably goes on a lot. Downloading is illegal (in breech of copyrights)

Making or possessing unlicenced copies is copyright infringement regardless of how you go about it. I find it funny that the OP was apparently seriously suggesting breaking copyright law as an acceptable alternative to buying the books on this forum, whether the Admin and Mod team will find it as amusing remains to be seen.

Duke Georgal
09-01-2010, 11:47
Base, seriously...

They are a business, I have a business, all businesses are the same. You must make profit or die. That is the only rule.

Everything they do, especially since they are publicly traded, is to generate profit.

There is nothing sinister about it. That is the goal.

Earthbeard
09-01-2010, 12:15
More asinine nonsense from the OP, I really can't tell if he's trolling or not, or just that crazed.

Flying Toaster
09-01-2010, 18:45
The thing is that GW is a business but some people want it to be a public service that lets them enjoy a hobby that is fun and regularly good value for money. But GW's loyalty is to the shareholders who own the business, not the stakeholders (the customers). Thats why they put the prices up. So they can keep going making money for the shareholders and in turn they will in invest more in the company. They eventually find that customers will stop buying when it gets too expensive but until then, the business will continue on the way it always does.

simonr1978
09-01-2010, 20:05
But you would be wrong in that conclusion because it's well over a year since they paid dividends so they're not actually making money for the shareholders.

This is crossing the line into a pricing discussion which is stickied into a single topic to prevent precisely this kind of off-topic diversion. GW is a business, to survive they need to make money, that's what their products are all about.

yabbadabba
09-01-2010, 20:36
I think we need to look at a couple of things. First if it was purely about money, then GW would do action figures and WD would really be a catalogue. There is no point GW generating anything that doesn't have a cash generating function to it, but that function can cover a variety of opportunities.
FAQ's which resolve rules questions can lead to more model sales through rules clarifications, building tournament armies etc. But the biggest impact of FAQ's is to give the hardcore competitive gamers GW's take on their questions - for better or for worse.
Articles on conversions, army themes, scenery clinics etc will generate sales through paints, hobby supplies, conversion purchases, new armies etc but also seek to inspire and enthuse hobbyists to keep going and keep dreaming up great ideas.
New army books often have new models, new units and new rules which force players to reconsider their army build, attract players to better looking models, encourage them to start a new army. But they also rejuvenate an old army, challenge players to play in different ways and once again, re-enthuse.
GW build their business on the concept of a hobby. Don't be misguided, anything GW produces will have pound signs on it somewhere, but the best is when they balance that with enthusiasm, inspiration and hobby love.

Chaos and Evil
09-01-2010, 20:40
gw build their business on the concept of a hobby. Don't be misguided, anything gw produces will have pound signs on it somewhere, but the best is when they balance that with enthusiasm, inspiration and hobby love.
.+1 & qft.

jlmb_123
09-01-2010, 20:56
3. The games that have generated most money have had rather few rules changes. Look at say a game like monopoly, made tons of money but had almost no rule changes nor any real upgrade drive.


Actually, there's 11 versions on the Monopoly site, plus there are several cities with their own boards (I think Edinburgh and Cardiff have their own, now), a defunct kids version, versions with card-readers, slot machines and one-armed bandits instead of cash, and a myriad others.

The shop my friend works in was the only independent store in Cardiff (which also features on the board) to stock the Cardiff version, so they had a midnight launch with the games designers in attendance, with all of the staff working to deal with the rush. Nobody came.:p

vladsimpaler
09-01-2010, 22:14
I think we need to look at a couple of things. First if it was purely about money, then GW would do action figures and WD would really be a catalogue. There is no point GW generating anything that doesn't have a cash generating function to it, but that function can cover a variety of opportunities.

WD -is- a catalogue.

I agree with this statement otherwise, Geedubya is a business after all.



FAQ's which resolve rules questions can lead to more model sales through rules clarifications, building tournament armies etc. But the biggest impact of FAQ's is to give the hardcore competitive gamers GW's take on their questions - for better or for worse.
Articles on conversions, army themes, scenery clinics etc will generate sales through paints, hobby supplies, conversion purchases, new armies etc but also seek to inspire and enthuse hobbyists to keep going and keep dreaming up great ideas.

This is what annoys me. WD never does this any more. Geedubya doesn't realize the gold mine that is Lost and the Damned. If they came out with a 5 page PDF like the original LatD, they would make ridiculous amounts of money.

Why not do that then? Why not a cool PDF on Rogue Traders and their entourage that you can attach to your Imperial Marine/Guard army?

The FAQs, if made for money, do a terrible job. Did you see the Planetstrike FAQ? Absolutely ridiculous.

Here's something: I want Geedubya to do well. But they seem to be masters of shooting themselves in the foot. That's what disappoints me.

yabbadabba
09-01-2010, 23:05
WD -is- a catalogue. No its an advertising and marketing product. Its not for vets. Argos produces a catalogue.


This is what annoys me. WD never does this any more. Geedubya doesn't realize the gold mine that is Lost and the Damned. If they came out with a 5 page PDF like the original LatD, they would make ridiculous amounts of money.
Why not do that then? Why not a cool PDF on Rogue Traders and their entourage that you can attach to your Imperial Marine/Guard army?
Because GW are no longer just a toy soldier company. There are numerous reasons for not producing the things you have mentioned - IP, set up costs, actual returns on the last runs of these armies, managing stock lines etc - but the main reason might be licensing. If GW have sold the computer rights to 40K, this might include or exclude certain conditions which might restrict GW from producing spin off armies.
There is also a case for GW wanting to leave these things to the community to have fun with? Not everything in this hobby needs GW's official stamp of approval.

simonr1978
10-01-2010, 00:10
Because GW are no longer just a toy soldier company. There are numerous reasons for not producing the things you have mentioned - IP, set up costs, actual returns on the last runs of these armies, managing stock lines etc -

I find it hard to believe that this would be the case. The stock is there, the sprues are there, just give people a White Dwarf or On-line officially sanctioned list to work from.


but the main reason might be licensing. If GW have sold the computer rights to 40K, this might include or exclude certain conditions which might restrict GW from producing spin off armies.

Again though I would find it hard to believe that GW would find themselves in a situation where Chaos Marines and Daemons were allowed but Lost and the Damned type units weren't, it's their IP for a start, unless something's seriously amiss surely they set the limits of what is and isn't excluded?


There is also a case for GW wanting to leave these things to the community to have fun with? Not everything in this hobby needs GW's official stamp of approval.

Then I honestly believe they need to reconsider how things are set up. For all its faults the Rogue Trader times were a good example of leaving things to the community and keeping things fairly open, by necessity in those days perhaps, but the current set up of Codexes and FoCs cater to exactly the opposite mentality, with FoCs in particular I think you firmly encourage a "Square Peg - Square Hole" style of thinking which leads sooner or later to Cookie Cutter army lists, "It's not Canon!" arguments, and a strictly "Tournament Legal" style thinking, in my experience.

That's probably more the community that the company, but if they can encourage a bit more open minded thinking then the community and likely the company will be richer for it.

vladsimpaler
10-01-2010, 05:13
No its an advertising and marketing product. Its not for vets.

It's not even for newbies. Perhaps anecdotal but when I was new, I looked through a WD and just thought that it was just trying to sell stuff, I didn't gain too much out of it really.



Because GW are no longer just a toy soldier company. There are numerous reasons for not producing the things you have mentioned - IP, set up costs, actual returns on the last runs of these armies, managing stock lines etc - but the main reason might be licensing. If GW have sold the computer rights to 40K, this might include or exclude certain conditions which might restrict GW from producing spin off armies.

Geedubya never was a toy soldier company. Citadel Miniatures is a toy soldier company.

Your second point about Licensing makes no sense to me. Geedubya is incredibly protective of their IP- they wouldn't let Blizzard change the background of it for its proposed 40k RTS, so why would they hamstring themselves now?

I don't doubt set up costs and whatnot, but how hard is it to produce a 4 or 5 page PDF that has like 6 units? That's what LatD was-and it was incredibly cool and offered tons of cool opportunities for players. I bought stuff specifically for it.



There is also a case for GW wanting to leave these things to the community to have fun with? Not everything in this hobby needs GW's official stamp of approval.
While not everything in a warhammer hobby needs an official stamp of approval, I disagree with the notion that GW wants to leave this stuff to the community. If anything, what it seems like you're trying to do is rationalize the company's negligence.

Finally, when a lot of people want to play for example Ad-Mech, they're forced to shoe-horn their army into something else. They can't just go to a tournament or to a LGS and say, "here's my fandex, let's play".

Shipmonkey
10-01-2010, 08:22
WD -is- a catalogue.

I agree with this statement otherwise, Geedubya is a business after all.


This is what annoys me. WD never does this any more. Geedubya doesn't realize the gold mine that is Lost and the Damned. If they came out with a 5 page PDF like the original LatD, they would make ridiculous amounts of money.

Why not do that then? Why not a cool PDF on Rogue Traders and their entourage that you can attach to your Imperial Marine/Guard army?

You do realize the massive issues that GW was cause themselves by doing either of those ideas?

Sure, releasing a Rogue Trader PDF or a Lost and the Damned PDF sounds like a great idea. Easy to do and easy money you'ld think until you realize how GWs ungrateful fanbase would react. Right after the issued those PDFs the whine would start complaining that there wasn't a full slate of minis to support the PDFs. Following this largescale screaming about how the new LatD PDF doesn't exactly match the older EoT list would lead to the furious issueing of online petitions for change. A couple years from now, Warseers servers will be brought down by the endless rants and whines when the PDFs are retired from the website without and immediate release of a full codex and minis release wave to support it. And twenty years for now, every other question for the developers at Games Day will be(alternating with the "Squat Question")," What happened to the Rogue Trader and the LatD PDFs?" Why would GW set themselves up for that? Why not just realize that their fanbase is incapable of handling "just for fun" style lists and react accordingly by not issuing them?

yabbadabba
10-01-2010, 09:04
I find it hard to believe that this would be the case. The stock is there, the sprues are there, just give people a White Dwarf or On-line officially sanctioned list to work from.
I don't doubt set up costs and whatnot, but how hard is it to produce a 4 or 5 page PDF that has like 6 units? That's what LatD was-and it was incredibly cool and offered tons of cool opportunities for players. I bought stuff specifically for it.

It costs a lot more and is slightly more complicated than that. for instance, one of the last non-codex LatD was not an official army list but something one of the studio staff knocked up at home and played at work. They liked it so much it got printed. No GW time was spent on developing it. Chances are its been labelled as not important because of sales vs cost last time it was out. With GW in the financial state its in, something with a low sales to cost ratio hasn't a hope of a look in.


Again though I would find it hard to believe that GW would find themselves in a situation where Chaos Marines and Daemons were allowed but Lost and the Damned type units weren't, it's their IP for a start, unless something's seriously amiss surely they set the limits of what is and isn't excluded?
Your second point about Licensing makes no sense to me. Geedubya is incredibly protective of their IP- they wouldn't let Blizzard change the background of it for its proposed 40k RTS, so why would they hamstring themselves now?

I agree, something would be amiss. but why do you think there is no crossover between Necromunda and 40K? Surely that would increase sales of both lines even more for no effort at all? GW ring fences its various games as wrapped up bits of IP. If GW sold me the rights to 40K including all the armies currently available, and then bought out a new army that was HUGELY successful, I couldnt take a slice of that action. Would I be happy? No as I would have either renegotiate (more money) or leave it (potentially less money). Anyway as I said it might be a case of that. Its more likely that associated costs vs time vs work commitments means that the Directors have asked the studio to concentrate on what GW already have.


Then I honestly believe they need to reconsider how things are set up. For all its faults the Rogue Trader times were a good example of leaving things to the community and keeping things fairly open, by necessity in those days perhaps, but the current set up of Codexes and FoCs cater to exactly the opposite mentality, with FoCs in particular I think you firmly encourage a "Square Peg - Square Hole" style of thinking which leads sooner or later to Cookie Cutter army lists, "It's not Canon!" arguments, and a strictly "Tournament Legal" style thinking, in my experience.
That's probably more the community that the company, but if they can encourage a bit more open minded thinking then the community and likely the company will be richer for it.

Finally, when a lot of people want to play for example Ad-Mech, they're forced to shoe-horn their army into something else. They can't just go to a tournament or to a LGS and say, "here's my fandex, let's play".
Both of these underline something really important.There are plenty of calls on here for people to try other rules, buy other miniatures, rebel against GW and yet relatively few saying "Take GW's stuff, do your own thing". Simon, you are partly right. GW have spent time moulding their customer base into buying what they want them too and it is partially successful. Supermarkets do it too. GW have never stopped people doing their own thing as long as it hasn't broken their policies. And as the GW fun police hasn't worked out how to put an IP camera into every miniature, this excludes the huge majority places where the hobby actually takes place - LGS, homes, gaming clubs - not the very minority of places - GW stores, tournaments, events.
If Warseer (for e.g.) became reknowned for the quality, inclusiveness and output of its "fandexii" instead of being known as "whineseer" I think GW would sit up and take note. As it is the online hobby community is fractured and unfocussed - even here. Its not up to GW to force this - they already print in their rulebooks that people should do their own thing to a certain extent. I wont have GW tell me what to do unless it is something I want to do - so why should anyone else?
And that takes me onto vlad's point. Its not where you play as much as who you play. This hobby is meant to be played at home and at clubs - private places. The introduction in the States of gaming tables, and the increase in popularity of Tournaments and Events has meant other avenues of play have opened up. but it is only where someone wants to stick to strict GW lines is it that you cant develop and use a fandex. So all you need is the right friends to help you. I have in development a Catachan Codex. Only me and my friends will play with it, and that is good enough for me. If I take my Cats to a GWGT then they are Imperial Guard, but thats my choice.


Geedubya never was a toy soldier company. Citadel Miniatures is a toy soldier company.
Pedantic.

While not everything in a warhammer hobby needs an official stamp of approval, I disagree with the notion that GW wants to leave this stuff to the community. If anything, what it seems like you're trying to do is rationalize the company's negligence. You are associating with negligence what might be associated with conscious, necessary business decisions. Fair enough, but I have seen enough these types of decisions in other retail businesses to consider such things as a possibility.

Sorry for the long reply and thanks for yor comments guys.

swordwind
10-01-2010, 14:36
Actually, there's 11 versions on the Monopoly site, plus there are several cities with their own boards (I think Edinburgh and Cardiff have their own, now), a defunct kids version, versions with card-readers, slot machines and one-armed bandits instead of cash, and a myriad others.

The shop my friend works in was the only independent store in Cardiff (which also features on the board) to stock the Cardiff version, so they had a midnight launch with the games designers in attendance, with all of the staff working to deal with the rush. Nobody came.:p

Heck, Stoke-on-Trent has its own version of Monopoly! And theres Lord of the Rings monopoly, Pokemon monopoly, Star Wars monopoly and a whole range of others brought out to coinicide with popular film releases.

vladsimpaler
10-01-2010, 16:26
It costs a lot more and is slightly more complicated than that. for instance, one of the last non-codex LatD was not an official army list but something one of the studio staff knocked up at home and played at work. They liked it so much it got printed. No GW time was spent on developing it. Chances are its been labelled as not important because of sales vs cost last time it was out. With GW in the financial state its in, something with a low sales to cost ratio hasn't a hope of a look in.

Fair enough but I think that Geedubya is missing out on a huge opportunity to do something really great here. Oh well.

@Shipmonkey- Don't worry. I'm sure that you and other GW apologists will come to the rescue. And don't forget-Warseer is only the ungrateful adults. Everyone else will love it. I'm typical hateful of some of GW's business practices but I'd love to see a new LatD list. (And don't forget-the ungrateful are the vocal minority!)



I agree, something would be amiss. but why do you think there is no crossover between Necromunda and 40K? Surely that would increase sales of both lines even more for no effort at all?

Doubtful really, Necromunda is a skirmish game that uses an entirely different ruleset that wouldn't work with the current 40k ruleset.



GW ring fences its various games as wrapped up bits of IP. If GW sold me the rights to 40K including all the armies currently available, and then bought out a new army that was HUGELY successful, I couldnt take a slice of that action. Would I be happy? No as I would have either renegotiate (more money) or leave it (potentially less money).

This is kind of confusing. Layman's terms, please?



Anyway as I said it might be a case of that. Its more likely that associated costs vs time vs work commitments means that the Directors have asked the studio to concentrate on what GW already have.

They focus on what they already have (rhymes with grace serene) to a detriment. While perhaps this is not the best time to start focusing on different stuff, look at what happened with the Wood Elves. Used to be a lame army that no one played as it hadn't been updated in forever. Sound familiar? A new, inspired army book and miniatures arrived, and it quickly became a fan favorite.

In my opinion, GW got too relaxed with its releases and started to rely on its one-trick pony and nothing else.





Both of these underline something really important.There are plenty of calls on here for people to try other rules, buy other miniatures, rebel against GW and yet relatively few saying "Take GW's stuff, do your own thing".

This is in part because it's a lot easier to start Warmachine and buy a couple of new models than it is to write a new codex. I would know. I've written a Chaos codex (you can check it out in the proposed rules forum) that I didn't have to do. I could've just had my friends and I start FoW or something.
(This is also an attempt to 'vote with your wallet', which there is nothing wrong with.)



If Warseer (for e.g.) became reknowned for the quality, inclusiveness and output of its "fandexii" instead of being known as "whineseer" I think GW would sit up and take note. As it is the online hobby community is fractured and unfocussed - even here. Its not up to GW to force this - they already print in their rulebooks that people should do their own thing to a certain extent. I wont have GW tell me what to do unless it is something I want to do - so why should anyone else?

Perhaps the most important thing that you're missing is that people do have a right to be complain or be angry if they think that they are being shafted.

On that same note, if Geedubya would hire me for my fan codices I can't say that I would be complaining. ;)



And that takes me onto vlad's point. Its not where you play as much as who you play. This hobby is meant to be played at home and at clubs - private places. The introduction in the States of gaming tables, and the increase in popularity of Tournaments and Events has meant other avenues of play have opened up. but it is only where someone wants to stick to strict GW lines is it that you cant develop and use a fandex. So all you need is the right friends to help you. I have in development a Catachan Codex. Only me and my friends will play with it, and that is good enough for me. If I take my Cats to a GWGT then they are Imperial Guard, but thats my choice.

That's the trick, isn't it? I had an easier time developing a Star Wars Miniatures ruleset and pitching that to my friends (which we currently play-it's a lot of fun) than I did with my Chaos codex. It's tough to find friends who don't really care what you are throwing around. One time we used some FAQ that gave my friend's Deathwing the 3+ invul stormshields. After I got duly crushed we never used it again. I suspect that this has something to do with the distrust of "unofficial" stuff.



Pedantic.

More or less, but the comment still stands.



You are associating with negligence what might be associated with conscious, necessary business decisions. Fair enough, but I have seen enough these types of decisions in other retail businesses to consider such things as a possibility.

Perhaps maybe it isn't even negligence as much as it is unconscious actions. Again though, I think that Geedubya (and to that extent, fans of 40k) really miss out when they only focus on what works and only what works instead of being dynamic and trying out something new and exciting.



Sorry for the long reply and thanks for yor comments guys.
Thank you as well. :)