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View Full Version : IG heavy flamers- expensive but why?



tu33y
14-01-2010, 08:22
so, heavy flamers are 20pts and i wonder why.

im not moaning i just wonder if there is something i have missed using them? its basically a normal flamer (assault template) but with +1 S and -1 AP. is there another reason why i can get 4 S4 AP5 flamers for the price of one heavy? its only gonna instant death T2 models who are all 1W anyhoo so its not like its S6 or anything.

my point is it seems expensive for what it does compared to the other special and heavy weapons that seem very cheap indeed. is it more badass than im realising?

daboarder
14-01-2010, 08:38
that ap 4 means it absolutely toasts anything not in power armour. and considering thats usually T4/T3 its S5 means its doing it on a 3+ or better.

Nakor
14-01-2010, 08:46
yeah you hit the right thing with that guy and they are dead meat and compared to a normal flamer, the right thing is a much wider field.

tu33y
14-01-2010, 08:48
hmm fair one. thats what i had thought but i wanted to check- cheers!

Badger[Fr]
14-01-2010, 09:00
It's nothing but another brainfart from Robin Cruddace. Were Guardsmen able to field one instead of a Heavy Weapon, the high price tag would have been justified. However, considering Command Squads can take up to 4 BS 4 Special Weapons, and that each and every IG tank gets one for free, there's no reason to ever field man-portable Heavy Flamers.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-01-2010, 09:02
so, heavy flamers are 20pts and i wonder why.


There is no reason for this I can see, it's plain arbitrary and overcosted.


that ap 4 means it absolutely toasts anything not in power armour. and considering thats usually T4/T3 its S5 means its doing it on a 3+ or better.

So what? Four normal flamers will still kill more, even against T4 and with somewhat diminishing results.

HF, 10 target models, T4, 4+: 6.67 kills

4 F, same prerequisites. 10,9,8,7 hits: 8.5 kills

Of course, you could take 4 heavy flamers in a PCS or add a HF to a Vet squad but still, that doesn't strike me as overly useful.

GodofWarTx
14-01-2010, 09:06
There is no reason for this I can see, it's plain arbitrary and overcosted.



So what? Four normal flamers will still kill more, even against T4 and with somewhat diminishing results.

HF, 10 target models, T4, 4+: 6.67 kills

4 F, same prerequisites. 10,9,8,7 hits: 8.5 kills

Of course, you could take 4 heavy flamers in a PCS or add a HF to a Vet squad but still, that doesn't strike me as overly useful.

what happens when the squad takes casualties? With the HF you have your firepower intact. With the flamers the firepower is diminished as flamer models are pulled.

Just a thought.

daboarder
14-01-2010, 09:08
actually godofwar they don't get less anymore. now you cover as many as you can with a single template and multiply it buy the number of flamers in the unit firing, iirc.

IJW
14-01-2010, 09:49
daboarder, that's only if firing from an open-topped vehicle. Other than that one situation you place each template from the relevant firing model, which is presumably why Lord Solar Plexus made a point of not giving the four Flamers 40 hits.

In any case, Godofwar was talking about some of the models with Flamers having died...

ehlijen
14-01-2010, 10:14
AP5 means it's a basic high number troops killer. AP4 means it can reliably engage many elite units.
With AP5 you can kill other guardsmen and orks easily, ie things in the 4-9 points range.
With AP4 you can kill howling banshees, stormtroopers, genstealers etc, ie things in the 10-20 points range just as easily.

It needed to have a price somewhere near what it does, if not exactly that, just to make sure the regular flamer was a valid option next to it.

In any case, this is a weapon space marines need terminator armour for to carry. That guardsmen get it at all is GW being generous.

IJW
14-01-2010, 10:16
And that there are IG models equipped with them... ;)

harrytheschmuck
14-01-2010, 10:23
i thought all shots were taken at the same time. so you would take each template and count up how many each covered and thats how many you hit. when shooting from a vehicle as non of the models are on the table per say. so you would take the 1 template and multiply by the number shooting.

you might as well get a black marker and put a line through the heavy flamer as i really don't think they are worth 20pts. i think it must have been put in the codex at the last minute so the writer had no time to test it so jacked the price up without any consideration to the rest of the gear the guard have. either that or hes not read other books and worked out its pretty much the most expensive heavy flamer out there.

daboarder
14-01-2010, 10:25
daboarder, that's only if firing from an open-topped vehicle. Other than that one situation you place each template from the relevant firing model, which is presumably why Lord Solar Plexus made a point of not giving the four Flamers 40 hits.

In any case, Godofwar was talking about some of the models with Flamers having died...


Ahh so i see, sorry bout that.

SatireSphere
14-01-2010, 11:05
AP5 means it's a basic high number troops killer. AP4 means it can reliably engage many elite units.
With AP5 you can kill other guardsmen and orks easily, ie things in the 4-9 points range.
With AP4 you can kill howling banshees, stormtroopers, genstealers etc, ie things in the 10-20 points range just as easily.

It needed to have a price somewhere near what it does, if not exactly that, just to make sure the regular flamer was a valid option next to it.

In any case, this is a weapon space marines need terminator armour for to carry. That guardsmen get it at all is GW being generous.

And yet Sisters of Battle can get them on their basic troops..

Lord Solar Plexus
14-01-2010, 11:20
what happens when the squad takes casualties?

You shoot with one of the backup squads. You do have backup squads, do you? :)

A single heavy flamer isn't going to kill whole squads anyways, not in my neck of the woods.. You'll kill a handfull of Orks and die. I did take them from time to time but I wasn't impressed. For 15 points, I'd consider them more often, anything less would be a steal and as ehlijen says, no-one would take regular flamers anymore. 20 points is simply too much for what is probably going to be a one-shot weapon.

Also, forcing five wounds on a PCS isn't that hard, so you might lose the HF anyways.


AP5 means it's a basic high number troops killer. AP4 means it can reliably engage many elite units.
With AP5 you can kill other guardsmen and orks easily, ie things in the 4-9 points range.
With AP4 you can kill howling banshees, stormtroopers, genstealers etc, ie things in the 10-20 points range just as easily.


But with four times the number of AP5 weapons I will usually kill just as many if not more of those Elites and have backup weapons at the same time.

And then there's power or aspect armour that the HF cannot penetrate, yet you will have to fire it at such units nevertheless because your friend didn't bring his scouts. Forcing many more hits is a lot better in these cases than +1S.

Edonil
14-01-2010, 11:20
Sisters are a unique case- after all, that's one of their four options period. Guardsmen still have more.

Shipmonkey
14-01-2010, 11:26
And yet Sisters of Battle can get them on their basic troops..

It's one of their signature weapons.

Vaktathi
14-01-2010, 11:43
In any case, this is a weapon space marines need terminator armour for to carry. That guardsmen get it at all is GW being generous.

Sisters can carry it, and they don't really even get augmented strength (or at least not much) and they can move, shoot, and assault with it.

Space Marines don't have it on non-terminators for some indescribable reason, but it's not because they are too unwieldy.

Bloodknight
14-01-2010, 12:04
Space Marines don't have it on non-terminators for some indescribable reason

They didn't steal it from the Guard yet ;).

IJW
14-01-2010, 12:07
Sternguard can get them.

Str10_hurts
14-01-2010, 12:26
Nob bikers and guided aspect warriors (with exceptions)...god that heavy flamer will make its points back.
And you can make a harder killing unit, 3 flamers and a heavy flamer.

Heavy flamers are best mounted on chimera's, and even then they are not that good, the tank has to turn to let your disembarking troops come closer. And sacrificing the multi-laser and pay extra seems a waste of points to me.

They are a pain, versus some armies....but if it were only 10 points it would be insane and every unit that could would take one standard.

And of course it depends on the meta game...if its only marines and orks you are playing then go standard flamers all the way

Bunnahabhain
14-01-2010, 12:40
Because the codex wasn't tested awfully well. There are no shortage of these things that are clearly under or overcosted...

If it was 12-15 pts, then it would be sensible. With 5pt standard flamers, and free heavy flamers on vehicles, they are just not worth 20 pts..

Baragash
14-01-2010, 12:40
Sternguard can get them.

Legion too ;)

Oh wait, overcosted, so just Sternguard then :p

Bloodknight
14-01-2010, 13:04
Nob Bikers aren't the ideal target, though.
Assuming you hit a full unit of 8 models with the heavy flamer (in that case your opponent is an idiot bunching them up so badly, but for argument's sake), you'll wound 4 times; and even if the nobz don't have Cybork Bodies the Doc's FNP will usually take away 2 of those. Thanks to wound allocation nobody dies. In a more realistic setup (4 hits) you'll probably deal one wound.

Frankly, I can't see why I would ever need that heavy flamer, not even against Aspect Warriors. 4 standard flamers for the price of one heavy will fry them just fine. I'd think about taking them on infantry if they were 10 points like an Autocannon.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-01-2010, 13:36
The HF is not without its uses and I would like to use the models more often but 20 points is a lot.

As to Aspects, four regular flamers will kill more regardless of save. 3 flamers and a heavy flamer are a possibility but shooting that at 4+ infantry opens up the possibility of wound allocation shenanigans and I'd rather avoid that if I can.

Culven
14-01-2010, 17:41
I have had a fondness for the Heavy Flamer ever since I started my Catachans when their codex was released. I view it as a move-and-fire heavy weapon due to its strength (which is sufficient to actually penetrate most vehicles) and AP. The fact that it provides so much firepower in a single model, thus freeing the others to carry other gear is probably part of the reason for the higher cost. Though, I think that it should probably be 15 points, since one need sacrifice the BS4 of the model carrying it.

AFnord
14-01-2010, 18:44
The argument about 4 basic flamers being a better buy than 1 heavy flamer really does not work. While you can get 1 heavy flamer upgrade for the price of 4 flamer upgrades, you also lose the inherent firepower of the units that replace their weapons with flamers.

Still, heavy flamers for guards are probably not worth it. They seem to be overpriced for what they do.

Lyonator
14-01-2010, 20:10
I like how BK mentions wound allocation vs nob bikers like it isn't a 'downside' for almost every weapon.
: P

I've used the HF before, but no longer. I feel that it's much better to overkill 4+ saves than not have AP3 or better, so assign special weapons accordingly
(Melta and Plas, nothin else.)

Bloodknight
15-01-2010, 09:51
you also lose the inherent firepower of the units that replace their weapons with flamers

I'll exchange a laspistol or lasgun for a flamer any time ;)


I like how BK mentions wound allocation vs nob bikers like it isn't a 'downside' for almost every weapon.
: P

Correct, but I just wanted to clear up that a heavy flamer really isn't great vs Nob Bikers. 2 BS4 Meltaguns for the same points are pretty likely to fry one of the Nobs instantly while the HF won't (of course, in a realistic setup you'd usually get one wound through the cover save and the Warboss will take that to avoid an ID, too).

Guard infantry isn't well suited to fight these guys anyway, Demolisher cannons are because they cause ID on everything in the unit which takes the S8/9-bullet-catcher-Warboss out of the equation.

That or a PBS and a couple of Ratlings ;)...

Lord Solar Plexus
15-01-2010, 09:59
Just a minor niggle - Guard infantry carrying demo charges is quite decent against Nobs.

Bloodknight
15-01-2010, 10:51
Of course, I forgot about these.

Jackmojo
15-01-2010, 11:00
If it was 12-15 pts, then it would be sensible. With 5pt standard flamers, and free heavy flamers on vehicles, they are just not worth 20 pts..

It seems to me that in anything but very small games that small a point overage is hardly worth griping about.

That said I tend to just grab four flamers on my Platoon Command Squads, nothing like not caring about that mediocre BS. Use the CCS for things which require a to hit roll.

Jack