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shadowtyrant
14-01-2010, 16:27
hi there

lot's of threads were posted about the nids in the last few weeks and many people have read the dex by now.

I don't want to bring up all the complaints here that were posted over and over again, but my local community has made a decision and i want you to tell me what you think about it and discuss it.

The army seems playable and competitive, even if it is not as strong as other 5ed dexes, but the new dex itself seems to be the worst dex i have ever read.
You get the impression that Cruddace never actually played Tyranids and had to write a dex for an army that he did not really know...
There are lot's of errors and oddities in the dex and unofficial FAQs already have about 5 pages and the dex is still not freely avialible.
And people who tested the new dex for the past few weeks (including myself) state that it is more like a new army than a new dex for tyranids.
Some people were saying they are gonna keep on using the old dex.

Reading different forums and discussing with my local WH40K community, i got the impression that there are people who want to play nids and they keep the old dex, and people who want to start a new army and want to use the new dex. I found the new dex being called the "Freak Bug Codex" while the old dex is the "Tyranid codex".

I for myself played Tyranids as my first and alltime favourite army and the new dex IMO really looks like a new army, the freak bugs.

I don't want to play a new army, but my beloved nids (by the way: i never used nidzilla; i played fluffy lists with a tyrant, one fex and at larger points a second one, biovores with acid mines and lictors and my lists worked well; but as freakbugs the units don't work anymore and many tests have shown that i would indeed have to start a new army).

What do you think about it? Would you play against someone that refuse to play freakbugs and want to use the old dex? And i don't mean Nidzilla lists! Using this argument to keep on using nidzilla would be really beardy.

And if you don't like the wording freakbugs, than call them oldschoold nids and neonids or whatever; just would you play against balanced old dex armies even if the new dex is out for sale or would you say the old nids are dead and neonids are the only allowed way to go?

And of course i am not talking about tournaments (even if you are lucky and your FLGS treats them as different armies, GW stores would never do that), it's all about friendly games.

Let me hear your comments^^

Vampiric16
14-01-2010, 16:31
In what way do they feel like a new army? Some examples would help us make some comment on the issue. I myself am waiting for the codex before i pass judgement.

EffigyoftheSwarm
14-01-2010, 16:37
hi there


unofficial FAQs already have about 5 pages and the dex is still not freely avialible.


Does that not speak more for ludicrous hysteria on the behalf of players (I would have thought many of these FAQ's are going to be based off unnofficial 'translations' of the 'leaked German codex') than the codex itself.

WolfGuardChris
14-01-2010, 16:37
I intend to keep an eye on the battle reports and opinions of nid players in the comming months and if it truely is as debilitating as has been reported I could see myself agreeing to let them use the old codex. I would hate to think I was only winning because of a lackluster codex as I enjoy a challenge. However I dont think this will be too common. After the newness I believe people will be satisfied with the new codex.

Badger[Fr]
14-01-2010, 16:49
I'm not particulary impressed by the new Tyranid book, and the internal balance seems to be dubious, to say the least, but isn't it too early to throw out the baby with the bath water? You cannot judge an army list on a simple unit-per-unit basis.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
14-01-2010, 16:55
I think that people are wrong when they say that Games Workshop has cut off leaked information and stopped allowing a buzz to generate about their new products.

This, and other examples, proves that in actuality, Games Workshop has simply shifted to a "spread crazy rumors and let people freak out" policy that helps to generate buzz about the upcoming releases. I'm more interested than ever to see the new Tyranids codex, simply because of how "awful" it is.

RampagingRavener
14-01-2010, 16:55
i played fluffy lists with a tyrant, one fex and at larger points a second one, biovores with acid mines and lictors and my lists worked well

I'm really not seeing the problem here. Tyrants, while I was initially unsettled by the high points cost, look like they'll still be worth bringing along. Biovores got better against anything that doesn't hide behind a 3+ save - sure, you no longer get the 2D6+3 armour penetration against vehicles but frankly I always thought if a Tyranid player is relying on Spore Mines for his anti-tank then he's pretty much screwed anyway. Lictors are kinda naff, now, with the inability to assault when they arrive, but Death Leaper actually looks really good. So swap a brood of Lictors for one super-Lictor. Of course if you're the sort of militant NO SPECIAL CHARACTERS EVER type, then that option is closed off, but such attitudes are more than a little silly in my mind. The Carnifex...is not the worst unit in the codex. Granted it will never be as good as a Trygon, but they're nowhere near Pyrovore-like levels of suck. If you aren't concerned with being highly competitive, you can keep on using them - so long as they weren't VC/BS Sniperfexes.

When the Chaos Codex was released, there was a wave of discontent, and dozens of threads popped up with people vehemently claiming they would never use the new Codex. I've never encountered one of these people, nor met someone who has. I suspect most of them eventually capitulated and switched to the new codex, with a few moving to a new army. The same will be true here. People immediately react badly to the new codex - I'll admit I did at first - but a few months on eventually they realise that the sky is yet to fall, the world has not ended, and actually it's nowhere near as bad as they first thought.

Personally I got sick of Tyranids a few years ago. The army no longer held any interest for me - it had become stale and boring to play, and despite the myriad biomorphs available to each creature, there really wasn't a whole lot you could do with the codex beyond Stealer-shock, Nidzilla, or a conventional swarm. The last one of which being far from competitive. While the new codex certainly isn't perfect, to me, it looks far more interesting, with more options that affect the army as a whole - new units, special rules, etc - instead of dozens of stat boosting biomorphs, most of which were never really used.

As for using the old codex? I'd give people a month or two of grace with the old one, since not everyone can just rush out and buy the new book right away, and they may wish to keep playing while painting up new units for their 5th edition Tyranid army. But after that, no, I wouldn't play against an older edition of the codex unless I was REALLY desperate for a game.

incarna
14-01-2010, 16:57
Although I am not a Tyranid player, I’m in the process of building a Tyranid army. Being familiar with the old codex, I will say it appears long-time Tyranid players will be required to make a paradigm shift with the new codex.

With that said, I don’t see the new codex as being particularly week or strong within the context of all other current 5th ed codexes. I do think that, much like other codexes, a few nasty surprises lie in wait for unsuspecting Tyranid opponents which will give rise to a perception that the codex is overpowered. This perception will eventually fall by the wayside as the meta-game adjusts.

I suspect that some form of Nidzilla will be the new “Biker Nob” tournament list.

420
14-01-2010, 16:59
After the newness I believe people will be satisfied with the new codex.

I'm not to sure about that, atleast not with most of the nid players I know. I've already seen one player I know ragequit over the new dex because too much of his army was invalidated and marginalized and he won't even be able to sell the models because many of them have invalid wargear combinations now. Another is having the same problem and cant afford to spend the few hundred dollars she will need to stay competitive either.

I understand that marginalizing popular units to introduce new models is how GW makes money when new books come out but I think this book did too much of it.

Radium
14-01-2010, 17:01
I think most of the problems are caused by the fact that a LOT has changed in the new codex. People want cheap carnifexes, but they lost those.
If you distance yourself from the army for a moment, and look at the codex as if it were an army you DON'T own, you'll see the book is actually quite nice. There are some really powerful builds in there, and lots of nice little options and tricks to try. The problem is that people don't like to remodel/buy new models to get the best out of this codex. And they seem to think they are the only ones who had this done to the.

Vedar
14-01-2010, 17:06
This happens with quite a few new codex that come out. Remember the Space Marine "OMG chapter traits are gone and scouts are BS3, the end is near and will use the old codex!!!" threads? Remember the CSM 4th ed codex "OMG they nerfed all legions and hit me with me with the nerf bat untill my face was numb and I'm going to use the old codex!!!"

If it is cool with your group you can do what you want. If you want to play with your old codex I'd be more than happy to play with the old Chaos Marine Codex. Most people will roll with the punches and move forward.

TheDarkDuke
14-01-2010, 17:11
Maybe its just me but i havent really seen any major problem with the book to make it unplayable or even considered as a new army. I think far to many people are jumping to conclusions, but it's their opinion. Personally I'm going to enjoy playing with the new nids.

At least they didnt just do the whole drop every models point cost by a few points to make the players buy more. well at least only partially since other things got more expensive :p.

Lord Cook
14-01-2010, 17:16
Would you play against someone that refuse to play freakbugs and want to use the old dex?

No. I would tell them to get over themselves and just use the new book. Having now read the new codex extensively, I'm convinced that this ridiculous level of hysteria about it is unjustified and childish.

loveless
14-01-2010, 17:20
Er...I haven't seen anything from the new book to suggest it isn't based off of the Tyranids. I haven't seen anything lacking character - over all, the new book feels to be an improvement from the last time I played 'nids (admittedly, only a few battles near the end of 4th).

I'll also remind you that this happens with every single new codex. All hell breaks loose and there's always that vocal group that's going to stick with the old codex. Ho hum, give it some time.

Megad00mer
14-01-2010, 17:21
There is no "freak bug" issue. The 5th edition Nid codex is vastly different than the previous 2 versions. People hate change. People are used to the armies they made and how to play them. Now they need to learn a new codex and change their armies dramatically. They don’t like this.

It’s happened before and it will happen again. You think the Tyranid codex fallout is bad? This is NOTHING.

The Chaos Space Marine codex was called the “biggest pile of crap” GW ever produced and Chaos players swore with hatred and spittle on their lips that their army has been ruined. They were quitting the hobby all together. Their armies were useless. And most of this was before they even saw the book, let alone played a few games with it. Forums exploded. Flame wars blazed. It was the single worst thing GW has ever perpetrated against humanity. Worlds burned. Children cried.

Until 2 weeks later when you didn’t hear a blessed thing about the Chaos Space Marine Codex anymore except normal, ordinary “how’s my army list” and “how’s my new Lord model look”.

Ironically the Chaos Space Marines are currently one of the most popular armies and one of the most competitive books out there. Go fig.

In 2 weeks you won’t hear a damn thing about Tyranids anymore except the normal run of the mill discussions. “How’s my list?” “How’s my Trygon look?” etc etc.

The frothing, seething masses will be too busy talking about how broken/overcosted/underpowered/overpowered/stupid/fluff breaking etc etc the Blood Angels will be.

We gamers are a fickle lot.

Max Jet
14-01-2010, 17:26
Until 2 weeks later when you didn’t hear a blessed thing about the Chaos Space Marine Codex anymore except normal, ordinary “how’s my army list” and “how’s my new Lord model look”.

Ironically the Chaos Space Marines are currently one of the most popular armies and one of the most competitive books out there. Go fig.

I certainly miss all those excellent and characterful armies in my local stores. Those with so much creativity and converted models. Well most of their owners weren't seen any more after the new Codex came out.

What I DO see are lots of black primed or lousy drybrushed double Lash Chaos armies.

Creeping Dementia
14-01-2010, 17:32
There is no "freak bug" issue. The 5th edition Nid codex is vastly different than the previous 2 versions. People hate change. People are used to the armies they made and how to play them. Now they need to learn a new codex and change their armies dramatically. They don’t like this.

It’s happened before and it will happen again. You think the Tyranid codex fallout is bad? This is NOTHING.

The Chaos Space Marine codex was called the “biggest pile of crap” GW ever produced and Chaos players swore with hatred and spittle on their lips that their army has been ruined. They were quitting the hobby all together. Their armies were useless. And most of this was before they even saw the book, let alone played a few games with it. Forums exploded. Flame wars blazed. It was the single worst thing GW has ever perpetrated against humanity. Worlds burned. Children cried.

Until 2 weeks later when you didn’t hear a blessed thing about the Chaos Space Marine Codex anymore except normal, ordinary “how’s my army list” and “how’s my new Lord model look”.

Ironically the Chaos Space Marines are currently one of the most popular armies and one of the most competitive books out there. Go fig.

In 2 weeks you won’t hear a damn thing about Tyranids anymore except the normal run of the mill discussions. “How’s my list?” “How’s my Trygon look?” etc etc.

The frothing, seething masses will be too busy talking about how broken/overcosted/underpowered/overpowered/stupid/fluff breaking etc etc the Blood Angels will be.

We gamers are a fickle lot.

Ok, you can be the King, you have my vote. Good post.

As for the original question, will I play against the old codex? As of Saturday, no, I won't. We get updates rare enough as it is, use the current Dex. Same reason why I won't play against the 3.5 Chaos Dex, or 3rd edition Eldar. Its a game, and a little bit of nerd-rage really isn't going to effect the game a couple weeks from now.

Dreachon
14-01-2010, 17:34
There is no "freak bug" issue. The 5th edition Nid codex is vastly different than the previous 2 versions. People hate change. People are used to the armies they made and how to play them. Now they need to learn a new codex and change their armies dramatically. They don’t like this.

It’s happened before and it will happen again. You think the Tyranid codex fallout is bad? This is NOTHING.

The Chaos Space Marine codex was called the “biggest pile of crap” GW ever produced and Chaos players swore with hatred and spittle on their lips that their army has been ruined. They were quitting the hobby all together. Their armies were useless. And most of this was before they even saw the book, let alone played a few games with it. Forums exploded. Flame wars blazed. It was the single worst thing GW has ever perpetrated against humanity. Worlds burned. Children cried.

Until 2 weeks later when you didn’t hear a blessed thing about the Chaos Space Marine Codex anymore except normal, ordinary “how’s my army list” and “how’s my new Lord model look”.

Ironically the Chaos Space Marines are currently one of the most popular armies and one of the most competitive books out there. Go fig.

In 2 weeks you won’t hear a damn thing about Tyranids anymore except the normal run of the mill discussions. “How’s my list?” “How’s my Trygon look?” etc etc.

The frothing, seething masses will be too busy talking about how broken/overcosted/underpowered/overpowered/stupid/fluff breaking etc etc the Blood Angels will be.

We gamers are a fickle lot.

Then I guess you haven't been paying attention to these forums over the few years ever since we got the chaos codex, almost every month or so another thread will pop up were people are voicing how the chaos codex is boring as hell to play with, I know as I play chaos as well, sure the codex has a solid build in it but other than that it's very much lacking when compared to just about every codex that was released after it.
And yes many people have quite, I saw at my club over halve the chaos players leave after the codex was released as they no longer like the flavour of chaos.

The same I see for the nid codex, yes things have changed, change can be a good thing but when the codex is already starting to crack even before it is released then there is a problem.
It takes only a single glance to already note what units in the codex were either not playtested or throught through', my best example the poor little pyrovore, I'm sorry to say this but Cruddace if this is the best what you could have come up with for the pyrovore then please contact us first before you writhe another dex, many of us could have made far better rules for probaly a fraction of the cost he invested in it.
Already people are showing which models are good to take, many of us figured that one out within 30min after looking at the codex or the leaked pdf, it doesn't take much to figure out that the zoanthrope is good and the pyrovore is crap.

I am going to get the codex, I will playtest it as much as I could but sofar I have very mixed feelings about this codex.
Luckily I have play with a group of very kind people who will should the nid codex prove to be not a stellar that I can use a fan dex.

Cheeslord
14-01-2010, 17:36
I'm really just frightened by what appear to be massive ambiguities and bad codex wording (I havent seen a copy but judging by the posts on the rules forum some fairly fundamental stuff is just terribly written and ambiguous - or at least the RaW massively contradict what most people think the intent was). It makes it difficult even in friendly games to decide what to do for rules. I'm glad I never play competitively.

I only have a small nid force (basic battleforce + 3 extra warriors) - I was going to expand it when the new codex came out. I'm going to wait a bit (maybe till FAQ come out to settle things).

However, I will probably get it eventually. Everyone is saying that the Pyrovore is completely useless - this makes me want one.

Mark.

totgeboren
14-01-2010, 17:37
Sure, if you let me play with the old Chaos Marine Codex (which was also more powerful than the current). :P

I think you are being abit silly. Whats wrong with the new Nids? They are alot less one-dimensional than before, though Nidzilla isn't as powerful. If you really liked spamming one unit (carnifexses), then I can understand your pain. On the other hand, facing lots of Carnifexes was kinda boring as an opponent.

As your potential adversary, I would much rather face a mix of different units, and sometimes units that catch me off guard, instead of the same old, "A few Fexes, 2-3 broods of spineguants and a Hive tyrant with Guards. That can't be played unless the nid player can deploy them all at the same time..."

I dunno, I have faced nids a huge number of times (since my main opponent plays them), and I think the new Codex plays alot more like I would expect nids to play. The main complaint I have is that the Carnifex is abit too costly. But then again, maybe not.

If my opponent didn't bring a carnifex, I could just plow right into the heart of his army with my LR and unload my Chaos termies, destroying whatever I felt like destroying. My 2-DCCW Dreadnought would also be a much happier camper.

Zoanthropes go down quick to a few kraks or lascannons, and they have a short range. That pesky Carnifex blocks me from destroying his Hive Tyrant and other such dudes unless I want to sacrifice my land raider to do it.

self biased
14-01-2010, 17:38
There is no "freak bug" issue. The 5th edition Nid codex is vastly different than the previous 2 versions. People hate change. People are used to the armies they made and how to play them. Now they need to learn a new codex and change their armies dramatically. They don’t like this.

It’s happened before and it will happen again. You think the Tyranid codex fallout is bad? This is NOTHING.

The Chaos Space Marine codex was called the “biggest pile of crap” GW ever produced and Chaos players swore with hatred and spittle on their lips that their army has been ruined. They were quitting the hobby all together. Their armies were useless. And most of this was before they even saw the book, let alone played a few games with it. Forums exploded. Flame wars blazed. It was the single worst thing GW has ever perpetrated against humanity. Worlds burned. Children cried.

Until 2 weeks later when you didn’t hear a blessed thing about the Chaos Space Marine Codex anymore except normal, ordinary “how’s my army list” and “how’s my new Lord model look”.

Ironically the Chaos Space Marines are currently one of the most popular armies and one of the most competitive books out there. Go fig.

In 2 weeks you won’t hear a damn thing about Tyranids anymore except the normal run of the mill discussions. “How’s my list?” “How’s my Trygon look?” etc etc.

The frothing, seething masses will be too busy talking about how broken/overcosted/underpowered/overpowered/stupid/fluff breaking etc etc the Blood Angels will be.

We gamers are a fickle lot.


i wish we could award respect points to people who make great posts like this. in the sea of whining nerdrage that is 40k general, posts like this remind me that there are some level-headed people out there.

Clymer
14-01-2010, 17:40
There is no "freak bug" issue. The 5th edition Nid codex is vastly different than the previous 2 versions. People hate change. People are used to the armies they made and how to play them. Now they need to learn a new codex and change their armies dramatically. They don’t like this.

+1!

Change happens, GW intends for it to do so. I know that a few people would be content to play the exact same 'dex for 10 years, but most people get tired of it, and chomp at the bit for something new and different. GW changes the rules on purpose from time to time, yes, partly as a marketing strategy, but also because it's more fun that way.

If you'd like to play me a game using the old tyranid 'dex for fun, I've got no problem with that. I agree that the old 'dex still plays alright and I had a fun game against 'nids a few weeks ago. It's hard for me to imagine that wouldn't be a fun game today too, just because a new 'dex is out.

For the time being, people haven't yet had time to digest the new 'nid book and I'll bet that there are ways to play a horde list yet. Mycetic spores dropping 20 guants from the sky and raveners burst up from their tunnels while Trygons and Fexes advance and lectors pop out of the bushes and genestealers run full tilt up the flanks... sounds scary and fun to me.

Cheeslord
14-01-2010, 17:43
I'm sorry to say this but Cruddace if this is the best what you could have come up with for the pyrovore then please contact us first before you writhe another dex, many of us could have made far better rules for probaly a fraction of the cost he invested in it.
.

I think that sums up the root of it - as far as I can tell GW rules writers exist in a vacuum, immune to any feedback or ideas from the playerbase. I mean, suppose they released a beta of the codex for playtesting - a lot of the issues people are complaining about could have been avoided. How will GW even find out what the issues are ... I don't know of anyone who can get through to them and actually say "look, this is ambiguous, this is just crazy the way you worded it, this doesent seem to work ... what were you thinking/expecting when you put it in"?

I still want a pyrovore though - I just seem drawn to underpowered units. I collect Necrons.

Mark.

Cheitan Shadowless
14-01-2010, 17:47
The 5th edition Nid codex is vastly different than the previous 2 versions. People hate change.
While one may question the quality of the changes, and whether said changes were truly necessary, your point stands like an immovable rock in a turmoiled sea. Consider for a moment how different the current situation would be if the 4th ed. codex had been substantially different from the 3rd ed. one. Very few would have decried the many changes from 3rd to 4th, and very few would have decried the many changes from 4th to 5th. The perceived abruptness of the 4th-5th change at least partially owes itself to most nid players seeing it as a tremendous break from an established tradition, when in fact this 'established tradition' is just two codexes.

I really, really hope your claims will hold true - if all the current nerdrage is gone in 2-3 weeks, I will be a very pleased gauntling. Also, I find it amusing that the playerbase of the allegedly 'most adaptive menace in the galaxy' currently appears horribly unadaptive. :p

Chairman_woo
14-01-2010, 17:48
Maybe its just me but i havent really seen any major problem with the book to make it unplayable or even considered as a new army. I think far to many people are jumping to conclusions, but it's their opinion. Personally I'm going to enjoy playing with the new nids.


Likewize, we might actually have an army that requires tactics again :D

On a more serious note ever since the 3rd ed codex nids have felt a bit too homogeneous for my liking, too many variations on the same creature. The new codex seems to have made creatures much more specialised to their roles, and I guess must be one of the few people that welcomes the changes to the carnifex too. Its gone back to being what it was supposed to be, a living battering ram that, if you are lucky might also vomit plasma all over your shoes! (to a 2nd ed mindset anyway, I know alot of the younger players were raised on a diet of multipurpose 3rd & 4th ed fexes) I'm pretty happy with the points too I was getting rather tired of peoples groans when you whack a 100ish pt MC or 3 down on the table. (4th ed basic/elite fexes are crimminaly underpriced IMHO)

So yeh I'm largeley positive IMHO, the turbulence atm just feels like the same "OMGWTF over/underpowered" mania that seems to strike the community in the buildup to every new codex, if perhaps a little stronger than most due to the more drastic changes (as other people have already suggested it feels alot like the release of the last chaos SM codex).

I'm dreading what the necron players are going to be like when their turn commes round :eek: (not trying to tar all necron players with the same brush here some of you are absolutley dead on and loveley people, but of all the types of player I come across the necron players generally seem to be the most reprehensible when it commes to WAAC and rules lawyering (or rather were untill they all refused to keep playing with them after 5th ed)).

DuskRaider
14-01-2010, 18:03
Tyranid players have officially bumped us Chaos Space Marine players for worst whiners in 40K. Have you even SEEN the new codex? I spent about 2 hours last night flipping through it at my LGS with a friend. The book is amazing! It definitely has me a bit nervous. Some of the entries looked a bit subpar (Harpy) or overpriced for what they bring to an army (Old One Eye). But the fact that you can have an entire Warrior squad with Boneswords? Genestealers that can change their stats from one turn to the next? Zoans with a ranged attack better then a Railgun? Or, perhaps the best, you can deep strike your entire army? Let's not even get into all of the options...

Come on, kids...

Hicks
14-01-2010, 18:16
I'm a nid player and I won't be using the old dex once the new one is out. I haven't read the new book, but from what I read, the army really has changed too much from what I loved about the concept and playstyle of the Tyranids for me to continue to enjoy playing them.

Internal balance issues are one of the problem, but there are lots of other things I don't like that I feel ruin the Tyranid "feeling" the army had. The loss of stats changing biomorphs, the loss X values in weapons profiles, drastic changes to the fluff, blatant cases of the special character version of a unit being way better, drop pods, no more fleet. Also, I really don't like any new MCs except for the Trygon. Seriously, a fex that poops Termagaunts :wtf:!? and I thought the SW wolf riders were a terrible silly idea...

Add the fact that, yes my old army is now possibly extremely poor, especialy when compared to the other 5th edition codices competitive builds.

That means I would have to pay for both a new book and lots of new miniatures I don't like and even if I do that, I know I would possibly enjoy the army nearly as much as I did.

The thing is, the new codex is just a new product and I don't need/have to buy it. Lots of people on this forum have posted comments like: "Just suck it up you cheezy nidzilla players, your army sucks now, so go buy the new crap and learn to play again". Well for one thing I certainly don't feel like I owe it to GW, the Tyranid army or those 40K players to buy the new stuff. If after reading the new codex I can confirm that in my own opinion as a hobbyist and customer that product is not to my liking, I will certainly not buy the book or new minis. Yes if that turns out to be the case I will probably drop my army, even if I spent tons of money on it and spent hours painting it, this isn't a relationship and their are no kids to think about. I won't be wasting my time and money on crappy products, if I don't see the value I ain't buying. I have 5 other armies to work on, the only thing that pains me is that the nids are the only fully painted force I can field now, nothing else.

AFnord
14-01-2010, 18:22
However, I will probably get it eventually. Everyone is saying that the Pyrovore is completely useless - this makes me want one.

Same here, tough i'm really scratching my head on how to actually use it. But every codex has one or two units that simply are not very good (chaos spawns, flash gitz and so on), and we might have to accept that this might be one of them. Thats not to say that I won't give it a try, because you should never judge a unit before you have tried it. Far to often something might look great on paper, but turn out to simply be ok (lootas) or horrible on paper, but turn out to be quite good. Tyranids seem to be an army that requires you to think about synergy, and to be honest, tyranids are now what I imagined that they would be when the 3rd edition codex was released (incidentally I have dusted of my old 3rd edition army, which is once again playable!).

To those who claim that tyranids has turned into a poor army, take a look at the codex again (but remember, don't judge!), there are several units that look top notch in there. Also, look at what they bring to the army as a whole. Sure, the tyrant is no longer as good at killing things as it was in the old book, but it has more special rules that supports the rest of your army.

pootleberry
14-01-2010, 18:43
I like change. I haven't played against the new 'Nids yet but when changes come it helps to keep the game fresh. I think the new codex really needs to be played by a wide variety of players before people can really make such a claim as the codex is knackered.

I appreciate that people are annoyed that their multiple carnifex lists are no longer viable (maybe) but shouldn't these sorts of lists be the sole preserve of Apocalypse games?

I'd give people a grace period but then they really should be using the new codex.

Orangecoke
14-01-2010, 18:45
Im really excited about the new Nid force I'm painting, and to get the new Dex on Saturday. If anything I'm embarassed by the fact I'm joining a faction that seems filled with players sporting some seriously (as someone put it) childish attitudes.

RampagingRavener
14-01-2010, 18:49
I appreciate that people are annoyed that their multiple carnifex lists are no longer viable (maybe) but shouldn't these sorts of lists be the sole preserve of Apocalypse games?

No more so than 15 Terminators or half a dozen Leman Russes should be the sole preserve of Apocalypse games. Also, if I may play Devil's Advocate for a moment, Tyranid players who don't like the new codex aren't complaining that Carnifex-heavy lists are useless; they're complaining that - among other things - the Carnifex is, simply, an inferior choice full stop.

People need to stop assuming that anyone who dislikes the new codex ran nothing but shooty Nidzilla. It does both the Tyranid player, and they themselves, a gross disservice. While I don't agree with many of the complaints regarding the new codex, I can understand them, and most have nothing to do with Nidzilla.

ObiWan
14-01-2010, 18:54
I've yet to read the real book, however I've seen the leaked pdf; being a long time tyranid player, I adapted when we lost mutation from 3rd to 4th, and I will adapt to those new changes. I never played with nidzilla, I've always have used a semi horde approach because I like it and I find both me and my opponent have more fun playing thah kind of list, curiosly enough my usual 4th ed codex list is veeery similar to the 3rd ed list; for what I've read my 5th list will at the start be alike too, but I do am excited about having new units to try and a lot of different configurations like the ones mentioned by DuskRaider, even pyrobores (I think they have a place in particular lists)
I play Eldar too, and when the new codex came up and no craftworlds were available we had to adapt, so I am probably used to it, I still like this game so unless I get a codex like CSM which although not a bad codex did lose a lot of flavor, I will keep on playing.

chaos0xomega
14-01-2010, 18:55
I just don't understand it... HOW has the armies playstyle changed?
Abundance of monstrous creatures? Check
Abundance of psychic abilities? Check
Abundance of swarm units? Check
Synapse effects? Check
Natural anti-psyker abilties? Check
CC focus? Check
Biomorph options for every unit in the book sans Unique Characters? Check
Incorporation of the old Mycetic Spore rules/theme? Check
Ability to respawn/spawn new units during the course of the game? Check


I've only had the opportunity to read the german codex (with a translated version next to it to help my mediocre german skills when I had difficulty), but it is a very very very nice book, I only wish that my Tau, Tyranids, and Necrons could get the same treatment

And I see few issues with internal balance, the only really things that I would say are "broken"/"worthless" are pyrovores and venomthropes, and even they have their uses. Everything else is just fine, including carnifexi. If you think that Trygons are better, you're wrong, they both have their uses, Trygons are for taking out units of terminators and Carnifexi are for taking out heavy armored vehicles like a Land Raider.

You know, for once I'm actually glad that GW has clamped down on rumors. The reactions that rumors and translated wordings generate is just way too fethin' much. I only wish that GW could lockdown stuff even tighter, at least then any arguments would be based off of people that have actually read/own the codex...

...and I'm betting we would only see a handful of disgruntled players, as every Tyranid player that I've seen that has played the new Tyranids has loved them.

MrInsomniac
14-01-2010, 18:58
I think that sums up the root of it - as far as I can tell GW rules writers exist in a vacuum, immune to any feedback or ideas from the playerbase. I mean, suppose they released a beta of the codex for playtesting - a lot of the issues people are complaining about could have been avoided. How will GW even find out what the issues are ... I don't know of anyone who can get through to them and actually say "look, this is ambiguous, this is just crazy the way you worded it, this doesent seem to work ... what were you thinking/expecting when you put it in"?

Someone on these boards once wrote:

'Dear GW, Rock is broken and overpowered, paper works just fine.

Yours,
Scissors.'

This is what would happen if Games Workshop started releasing Beta versions of codices.

I'm looking forward to seeing the codex, I've never based my opinions on what I read online, especially Warseer. If I did, I'd never buy a dex.

grg3d
14-01-2010, 19:00
I got it :eek:

We could all use.....

"Codex 40K The Army List"

One book for all of us, we all could have the same

Stat line
Special Rules
cheep but extremely effective units
same armour saves 1+
every peice would have EW
Everything can rend
Everything causes ID
Auto Pass LD tests


We would all get updates to our Codex at the same time...

And still some one would complain.....:wtf:

Cheitan Shadowless
14-01-2010, 19:14
I've never based my opinions on what I read online, especially Warseer. If I did, I'd never buy a dex.
Well, that's a decent point. Arguments on Warseer sometimes do end up amounting to

A: I HAVE AN OPINION :mad:
B: YOUR OPINION IS WRONG :mad:
A: :(
B: :cries:

Even so, there's never no harm in a healthy debate. Not that I would immediately characterize the ongoing flood of threads laced with negativity about the new Tyranid codex as strictly healthy debates!

Jorgandr
14-01-2010, 19:16
Would I play an opponent who plays the old codex? No, probably not, outside extreme circumstances (a scenario written with some old rules in mind or another things like that).

I sit here with the codex in front of med and likes what I read. It seems to be fun to play, with a lot more viable options than the last one. I'm not taken with the Carnifex, and I mourn the loss of the old Sniperfex. But that is mostly because I have to rebuild the model, not that I don't like the rules.

Other than that, not much has happened, really. More options, more expensive (huge) critters, less expensive small critters. Big deal? Yeah, since it will be more fun to play the army nowadays.

Hicks
14-01-2010, 19:17
Well if everything GW puts out is pure perfection in your mind, maybe Warseer isn't the forum for you.

Cheitan Shadowless
14-01-2010, 19:24
Well if everything GW puts out is pure perfection in your mind, maybe Warseer isn't the forum for you.
I think this wins the prize for the most unwarrantedly bitter post I've read on Warseer today. Perhaps Warseer isn't the forum for me either...?

Hicks
14-01-2010, 19:26
I think this wins the prize for the most unwarrantedly bitter post I've read on Warseer today. Perhaps Warseer isn't the forum for me either...?

Depends if you prefer to talk about the good and bad stuff about GW or if you would ratter complain about what kind of content people post on the forum. :rolleyes:

Avatar of the Eldar
14-01-2010, 19:37
Just some well-intentioned meta-observations about the dynamics here...


- It's universal,: any given change will make some significant chunk of the impacted community unhappy. Some will reconcile to the change and move forward with it, others will choose a new path. These boards are an outlet for expression and communication. These expressions of rejection and support will always be with us so there's no point in "Shut yer pie-hole and sack up crybaby." comments. Let people grieve and voice what they care about. They're working through the change. Also. it's more productive to express what we are enthusiastic about rather than rebuking others for disappointment and feelings of loss.

- Similar to the OP here, I'm disappointed in the new Beastmen book. It doesn't have the "feel" that attracted me in the first place. I voiced my little rant but I recognize there's no going back. Recognizing that, I've cheerfully sold my models thereby creating funds and storage space for other projects I can get excited about. (Like Nids!) It's a big hobby world out there folks.

- Ultimately the big point to keep in mind is that GW makes these changes to keep their sales numbers moving. (Birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim.) Either you shelve your fexes and buy trygons or you start/expand another army. Very few of us will outright leave the hobby (junkies that we are), GW knows that. Either way it's a win-win for them. Keep moving product. Therefore, none of us should get too attached to their army the way it is today because as sure as the sun comes up in the East, the day is coming when it will get changed significantly so that GW can make its quarterly financials. That's just the circle of life. If you're cranky about it, don't just shelve your now "useless" models. Stick it to the man by selling that army to someone who is excited about the new codex and thereby reduce the new sales revue GW will get from destroying the thing you loved. (Tongue squarely in cheek.) Give thanks for all the fun you had with them, let them go and turn your energies towards the next thing that's fun for you.


Thus endeth the sermon.

Lord Cook
14-01-2010, 19:44
Well if everything GW puts out is pure perfection in your mind, maybe Warseer isn't the forum for you.

I hardly think anyone has ever argued that. Surely you appreciate that the endless bitterness and cries of woe reverberating around the Internet actually create a false atmosphere, where people who have never even read the codex already hate it? How is that productive or objective?

Omniassiah
14-01-2010, 19:57
I think the biggest problem that I (and from what I have seen a lot of other people) have with the new Nid book is that my old list just plain doesn't work... Not because of points, not because of units shifted around the force tree, my units, specifically 3 Carnifexes and all of my warriors are invalid models/units. Effectively a lot of Tyranid players have the same issue that everyone had going from 2nd edition to 3rd edition 40k now. This is not something that even chaos players had to deal with in any amount with their new codex. They lost few Models from the list. And with the exception of having a few too many options none of thier units really got invalidated because of wargear.

Vepr
14-01-2010, 19:58
I don't think the new dex is that bad. I am hesitant to call it good but I would not call it bad. It is playable that is for sure. There are some odd internal balance issues that stick out like a sore thumb but every dex seems to have a little of that. I have been play testing for a few weeks since the leak and then even more after finally clearing some things up with a store copy.

I think this army might be a little too dependent on "synergy" and what I mean by that is against a decent opponent it is tough to pull off the mutual support needed in concert with the luck needed on DS and outflanking etc. to form a dependable strategy. The combos we try to pull off seem to be fairly easy to interrupt between the enemy and dice gods. The Death Leaper is almost a must have (which is bothersome even though I like the Death Leaper) due to dealing with other psykers especially SW. For better or worse this codex forces you to balance between the small, medium, and big bugs. You cannot really run a horde because our cannon fodder absolutely needs the buffs from the bigger bugs to do anything and they cannot deal with mech. The medium and big bugs need the small bugs to run interference on things that will tent spike them.

Building an all comers list has been a bit of a challenge due to what is needed to deal with IG mech and then turn around and deal with SW etc. I am still on the fence trying to figure out what I want to do. Right now I would rate it behind IG and SW but that is from limited experience right now. Not bad, not good, it just is what it is.

Hicks
14-01-2010, 20:03
I hardly think anyone has ever argued that. Surely you appreciate that the endless bitterness and cries of woe reverberating around the Internet actually create a false atmosphere, where people who have never even read the codex already hate it? How is that productive or objective?

I have no trouble with people who at least took the time to read the rumours (very reliable ones at that) being unhappy with the new codex and expressing themselves.

For one thing, I think the post just above by Avatar of the Eldar is 100% right, he completely understands what an internet forum is. If people are unhappy about the nid codex, why can't they talk about it? Some posters were complaining about the amount of people being super happy about the Space Wolf codex and everybody and their cousins wanting to use it for their count-as armies too you know. There was no woe in that, but the usual "stop whinning and learn to play/not this thread again for the 34653764th time/have you extensively tried the new dex before posting your ****?/people on warseer are a bunch of crybabies" people still infested those threads and contributed to nothing except their post count.

And yes the rumours and bitching is constructive, because of it people who might have forked a ton of cash on the new nids might change their mind and use their hard earned money for something else.

Rick Blaine
14-01-2010, 20:06
Well if everything GW puts out is pure perfection in your mind, maybe Warseer isn't the forum for you.

That's right, we don't like positive thinkers here. Scum of the earth, those.

DCLXVI
14-01-2010, 20:08
I hardly think anyone has ever argued that. Surely you appreciate that the endless bitterness and cries of woe reverberating around the Internet actually create a false atmosphere, where people who have never even read the codex already hate it? How is that productive or objective?
You can include me as one of those people.
First I was excited to learn that we were getting a new dex, then the rumours started which left me feeling a bit *meh*, and now people who've actually got/read the dex are posting their reviews. I must say it leaves me a bit cold.
I run a 2.5kish semi horde army (never got round to doing nidzilla) and I've worked out that to make what I've got quite viable with the new dex, I'll have to spend a load of cash on the shiny new models. I could still run with what I've got but I don't fancy having my **** handed to me every game, thank you very much.

I can see why people are up in arms over this - they spent a load of money on a 4th ed list and now that it's been nerfed to the hilt/had its points increased etc, it's causing a lot of dissatisfaction.
Of course we would have bought some new models, who wouldn't? The old gargoyle and ravener models were horrendously expensive for what you got! (ok so the raveners are much the same price..shoot me).

At the moment my codex is on pre-order and I intend to wait a while to see how other people fare in their games before deciding whether to buy anything new or not...

chaos0xomega
14-01-2010, 20:10
But... a horde army is just as viable as any of the other tyranid force, especially with the inclusion of spore pods. Sure you have to make/buy sporepods, or you can just do what the marine players did to everyone else and use sodacans or the ever popular red-party-cups-of-doom.

MystheDevourer
14-01-2010, 20:10
I think most of the problems are caused by the fact that a LOT has changed in the new codex. People want cheap carnifexes, but they lost those.
If you distance yourself from the army for a moment, and look at the codex as if it were an army you DON'T own, you'll see the book is actually quite nice. There are some really powerful builds in there, and lots of nice little options and tricks to try. The problem is that people don't like to remodel/buy new models to get the best out of this codex. And they seem to think they are the only ones who had this done to the.
This is actually the perspective I have, since I am new to 40k in general and started with using a Sm army and currently switching to Tyranids because i think they look amazing, I dont play them just to win I play them to have fun. yes i agree the codex was written poorly but theres nothing you can do about spilled water.


But... a horde army is just as viable as any of the other tyranid force, especially with the inclusion of spore pods. Sure you have to make/buy sporepods, or you can just do what the marine players did to everyone else and use sodacans or the ever popular red-party-cups-of-doom.


Yes the spore pods help but the fact that you can not assault out of them really hurts the army, what is more fluffy then a squad of genestealers coming from space and poping out of the pop then assaulting the nearest living thing that is not a Tyranid?

Now agreed I believe you can assault form the trygon's self made hole but thats a luck and roll issue.

Hicks
14-01-2010, 20:12
That's right, we don't like positive thinkers here. Scum of the earth, those.

I never said anything bad about people who like the new dex, I was just pointing out that people who don't like it have a right to their opinion too.

I'm actually happy that some people like it, if nobody did, sales would be terrible and GW would wait 15 years before updating the army again. If anything, once it's out and I can try a couple games, I might love the new playstyle enough to forget the about the old one.

So what were you saying again?

etancross
14-01-2010, 20:17
I have seen a LOT of dumb things here on warseer but this is truly one of the standout dumbest!

thank you for the laugh thread starter.....

Vepr
14-01-2010, 20:19
But... a horde army is just as viable as any of the other tyranid force, especially with the inclusion of spore pods. Sure you have to make/buy sporepods, or you can just do what the marine players did to everyone else and use sodacans or the ever popular red-party-cups-of-doom.

Yes and no. The problem for nids unlike other armies is that we cannot add anything to our horde that can deal with mech. We cannot add a melta or a rocket launcher or a power fist. On top of that they still need synapse baby sitters. We cannot run horde like Orks and IG. This is not the end of the world but the new nids are still very much dependent on medium to big bugs to get anything done. That is why I was saying in my previous post that balance between the small, medium, and big bugs seems to be the order of the day.

Voss
14-01-2010, 20:21
I'm really just frightened by what appear to be massive ambiguities and bad codex wording (I havent seen a copy but judging by the posts on the rules forum some fairly fundamental stuff is just terribly written and ambiguous - or at least the RaW massively contradict what most people think the intent was). It makes it difficult even in friendly games to decide what to do for rules. I'm glad I never play competitively.


See, this is exactly why people need to wait. The ambiguities are largely a result of overly brief and fairly poor internet translations. Having gone over the codex a couple times, it isn't really an issue.

For the OP, I don't see the 'freak bug' issue, or any real reason to use the old book. As usual, there are differences between old and new book, but there wouldn't be much of a point in new ones if there wasn't. Tweaking some things in your list and dropping a monstrous creature will get you a good, playable army. Revising your list a bit more will get you a very good, highly effective army.

Shebnar
14-01-2010, 20:30
I'm really not seeing the problem here.
When the Chaos Codex was released, there was a wave of discontent, and dozens of threads popped up with people vehemently claiming they would never use the new Codex. I've never encountered one of these people, nor met someone who has. I suspect most of them eventually capitulated and switched to the new codex, with a few moving to a new army. The same will be true here. People immediately react badly to the new codex - I'll admit I did at first - but a few months on eventually they realise that the sky is yet to fall, the world has not ended, and actually it's nowhere near as bad as they first thought.

Disclaimer: by no means I intend to offend you or question your tastes, but being a chaos player myself and having tested the new tyr in my gaming group, I express my opinion about the new codex, in comparison with the Chaos one.

The Chaos Codex is a terminal, unsalvageable crap in all aspects, there's no way to compare it to the new Tyr book.
I think Cruddace has pretty much revolutioned the conception of the army, but in a positive way.

- Tyr still retain a lot of biomorphs, plus get a whole range of new abilities.
- Tyr have not a winner-unit, which is good. The times of no-brain Nidzilla/monogaunt-with-nodes/monostealer armies are gone.
- Tyr are more devastating than before in cohordinating their attacks, not to mention that the old bugs are fixed (Lictors and spores anyone?) and they can do now mycetic attacks. They just play more as Eldar now, with specialized units at the right place, plus hordes of gaunts to get the enemy units stuck.
- the new Tyr special abilities are well thought-out. There's no magic 'lash of submission', just a bunch of useful (and balanced) features that, at the right moment, can turn the tide of the battle (I'm expecially fond of the Mawloc).
- Tyr can choose now among plenty of new cool units, none of which (according to the admittedly few games we played with the new codex) is worthless (well, except the Pyrovore :rolleyes:). From small swarms to giant Trygon-thingies you can add much more variability in your lists.
- Tyr players will be purged of whiners and no-brain-army addicted who bought 6 Carnifex in the last edition just to get easy victories. That will hone the Tyr community's gaming skills.

Concerning the Chaos Codex:

- Chaos has lost ALL Daemonic Gifts, bar none.
- Chaos Powers now have become buddies, and make Daemon Princes out of the same mold, except for Marks and some psychic fart they can deal (except for Khorne PDs, who turn out to be beaten to a pulp on a regular basis by *Tzeentchian* PDs with Warptime).
- before judging any unit 'worthless', a player (of any army) must play with Possessed before, in order to understand what the term 'worthless' means. If Pyrovores are useless, Possessed are the Ultimate Frontier of Inutility.
- Chaos BG has been severely screwed (no Legions WTF?!?!? No way to differentiate between Legions and warbands? I f*beeeep* play Death Guard, not some nurglish newcomers like the Purge - a name that sadly makes me think of a host of fatties who are compulsively ******** in a giant toilet)
- bland or nonexistent upgrades
- the ridicolous "OMFG the army sucks... hurry, put in some supa-dupa powa before we print the codex!" feature named 'Lash of Submission'
- the Icon system could have been much better
- Marked troops which summon Undivided Daemons... *sigh*
- the only nice improvements consisted in the reworking of Plague Marines and Berzerkers. Noise Marines are still too costly, and in 5th edition Thousand Sons suck.
- Chaos Spawns... urgh, should I say more? The costlier, the crappier.
- Defiler... in the previous edition was good at shooting with indirect pies. WOW. In the current codex it's good at *nothing*, it's just a costly jack-of-all-trades.
- the Chosen, the Masters of Chaos, the heralds of terrors bloodyblah... i.e. CSM with Infiltrate and some more weapons. WTF?!?!?!?

I kept going on playing Chaos because I feel compelled to play Chaos since the Rogue Trader era, no matter the odds, though now its BG has been utterly raped. I could never see myself playing a Tau or pointy-ears army.

But to me the new Tyr Codex is FAR better than most of the 4th edition codecii. I would like to see the same degree of flexibility and variability for Chaos... well, I can only hope that one day Cruddace (who I think to be at present the best GD at Nottingham) can properly rework Chaos and Chaos Daemons.



Personally I got sick of Tyranids a few years ago. The army no longer held any interest for me - it had become stale and boring to play, and despite the myriad biomorphs available to each creature, there really wasn't a whole lot you could do with the codex beyond Stealer-shock, Nidzilla, or a conventional swarm. The last one of which being far from competitive. While the new codex certainly isn't perfect, to me, it looks far more interesting, with more options that affect the army as a whole - new units, special rules, etc - instead of dozens of stat boosting biomorphs, most of which were never really used.

You've got the heart of the matter: the new Tyr Codex is damn funny.
Because it's funny to choose from a list of available creature knowing that no choice is intrinsecally better than the other.
It's a bit like the IG Codex, another damn funny codex: it has flaws, of course, but also a lot of options with a slight percentage of subpar units. Well, Tyr have less subpar units, IMHO, and are as intriguing as the IG.



As for using the old codex? I'd give people a month or two of grace with the old one, since not everyone can just rush out and buy the new book right away, and they may wish to keep playing while painting up new units for their 5th edition Tyranid army. But after that, no, I wouldn't play against an older edition of the codex unless I was REALLY desperate for a game.

Old codex? Personally I'm not fond of using outdated material.
I never asked for letting me use old rules, though 3/4 of my Death Guard army went outdated or subpar with the new codex.

Flying Toaster
14-01-2010, 20:36
I got it :eek:

We could all use.....

"Codex 40K The Army List"

One book for all of us, we all could have the same

Stat line
Special Rules
cheep but extremely effective units
same armour saves 1+
every peice would have EW
Everything can rend
Everything causes ID
Auto Pass LD tests


We would all get updates to our Codex at the same time...

And still some one would complain.....:wtf:

Too balanced. No one would play if there wasnt some killer combo... :shifty:


Depends if you prefer to talk about the good and bad stuff about GW or if you would ratter complain about what kind of content people post on the forum. :rolleyes:

Winrar!

The Custodian
14-01-2010, 20:41
To be honest when I played the book it gave me good feelings, it was fun ( even if I lost)...

But these forums have a tendency to pervert beliefs and recently has made me get more and more depressed about the book... I really can't wait until saturday and hope to play more games...

As one of the previous posters said nids have changed... Not so much the biological mindless horde but more of a horde non vehicle version of eldar... Which I don't mind that much...

Flying Toaster
14-01-2010, 21:07
I got it :eek:

We could all use.....

"Codex 40K The Army List"

One book for all of us, we all could have the same

Stat line
Special Rules
cheep but extremely effective units
same armour saves 1+
every peice would have EW
Everything can rend
Everything causes ID
Auto Pass LD tests


We would all get updates to our Codex at the same time...

And still some one would complain.....:wtf:

Too balanced. No one would play if there wasnt some killer combo... :shifty:


Depends if you prefer to talk about the good and bad stuff about GW or if you would ratter complain about what kind of content people post on the forum. :rolleyes:

Winrar!

Badger[Fr]
14-01-2010, 21:12
I'm playing the devil's advocate there, but...


Tyr have not a winner-unit, which is good. The times of no-brain Nidzilla/monogaunt-with-nodes/monostealer armies are gone.
Erm... Tervigons, Hive Guards, and Zoanthropes are as much of a no-brainer as one can get.


Tyr are more devastating than before in cohordinating their attacks, not to mention that the old bugs are fixed (Lictors and spores anyone?)
Lictors are anything but fixed. They're probably even worse than they used to be.



- Tyr players will be purged of whiners and no-brain-army addicted who bought 6 Carnifex in the last edition just to get easy victories. That will hone the Tyr community's gaming skills.
And how will the Hive Guards / Tervigons / Zoans / Trygons copy-pasted armies improve the community's gaming skills?

The Tyranid Codex may not be as bad as the god-awful CSM book, but it still has many glaring design issues. The Ork and Space Wolves Codices were much more balanced IMHO.



I never asked for letting me use old rules, though 3/4 of my Death Guard army went outdated or subpar with the new codex.
How so? Plague Marines, Chaos Terminators, and Daemon Princes are downright brutal, and many Vanilla units aren't half bad either.

squeekenator
14-01-2010, 21:52
Yes and no. The problem for nids unlike other armies is that we cannot add anything to our horde that can deal with mech. We cannot add a melta or a rocket launcher or a power fist. On top of that they still need synapse baby sitters. We cannot run horde like Orks and IG. This is not the end of the world but the new nids are still very much dependent on medium to big bugs to get anything done. That is why I was saying in my previous post that balance between the small, medium, and big bugs seems to be the order of the day.

Now, I'm not sure whether you're saying that a mixed swarm should be the most viable option or that you should be able to field a competitive gaunt swarm, but there are some people who demand gaunt swarms to work, so I'm going to go into a mini-rant now. If you agree with me, then this post is not directed at you.

Gaunt horde armies should not work. It goes completely against the fluff to have an army of just gaunts. When you read about a Tyranid horde in various fluff pieces, what do the gaunts do? Do they single-handedly overrun enemy positions while the medium and big beasties stand around drinking tea and having a nice chat? No. They're meat shields. They exist only to expend the enemy's ammunition and distract them while the real Tyranids eat everything. The only story in the 4th edition codex that shows gaunts doing anything other than dying horribly is in the gaunt entry, a few lines in which someone of no importance (probably not particularly strong, then) says that not shooting the gaunt ASAP was a 'big mistake'. Considering he lived to tell the tale, he presumably killed the gaunt anyway, so it's not like they're a big threat.

Tyranids are not Orks. They do not win by overwhelming their foes through sheer numbers. They win by using an endless tide of expendable meat shields to allow a medium number of bigger creatures to reach the enemy. Gaunts on their own should be a weak unit.

Avatar of the Eldar
14-01-2010, 21:59
Oh my god what have I done?

Can a Mod please delete my other posts that have repeated themselves? This was accidental!

Throttle back on the caffeine, Toaster! :p

Vepr
14-01-2010, 22:27
Now, I'm not sure whether you're saying that a mixed swarm should be the most viable option or that you should be able to field a competitive gaunt swarm, but there are some people who demand gaunt swarms to work, so I'm going to go into a mini-rant now. If you agree with me, then this post is not directed at you.

Gaunt horde armies should not work. It goes completely against the fluff to have an army of just gaunts. When you read about a Tyranid horde in various fluff pieces, what do the gaunts do? Do they single-handedly overrun enemy positions while the medium and big beasties stand around drinking tea and having a nice chat? No. They're meat shields. They exist only to expend the enemy's ammunition and distract them while the real Tyranids eat everything. The only story in the 4th edition codex that shows gaunts doing anything other than dying horribly is in the gaunt entry, a few lines in which someone of no importance (probably not particularly strong, then) says that not shooting the gaunt ASAP was a 'big mistake'. Considering he lived to tell the tale, he presumably killed the gaunt anyway, so it's not like they're a big threat.

Tyranids are not Orks. They do not win by overwhelming their foes through sheer numbers. They win by using an endless tide of expendable meat shields to allow a medium number of bigger creatures to reach the enemy. Gaunts on their own should be a weak unit.

I am just pointing out the reasons why nid horde is not any better this edition than last edition. I have never been much for fluff because it keeps changing (broods of lictors? :wtf: ) but I was not trying to say gaunt and gant waves should be an effective list either.

It seems to me a mixed list is the best option this edition because of the issues the nids will face going too heavy one way or the other.

Although I still playing around with trying to come up with a viable list of nothing but midsized bugs with Alpha warriors leaders just for giggles.

TheShadowCow
14-01-2010, 22:29
The army seems playable and competitive, even if it is not as strong as other 5ed dexes, but the new dex itself seems to be the worst dex i have ever read.

...

Reading different forums and discussing with my local WH40K community, i got the impression that there are people who want to play nids and they keep the old dex, and people who want to start a new army and want to use the new dex. I found the new dex being called the "Freak Bug Codex" while the old dex is the "Tyranid codex".

I for myself played Tyranids as my first and alltime favourite army and the new dex IMO really looks like a new army, the freak bugs.

Every new version of the Tyranids has played *entirely* differently.

Second had one version (amusingly enough the varied threats bring this one closest to the Fifth), Third had *two* versions (a slow, cumbersome BBB list and a hyper-fast Codex that made use of about 5 units), Fourth tried to allow players to field every type of swarm they could imagine (but ultimately just created shooty-Nidzilla and it's Tournie-light Stealershock brother), and finally Fifth seems to have rebooted us back to the varied swarms of Second.

If you're a long-term Tyranid player you should be accustomed to change (heck, the fluff of the entire race is based on change), because it happpens every five years or so.


What you're experiencing is a reaction to forced change. This might be because the models you've purchased are requiring some modification, or are less/more powerful. This isn't exactly a new occurence either (consider the Genestealer - godly in Second, Average and then Poor in Third, then Brutal in Fourth). Change can be annoying, and it can sometimes cost you a bit of money. Welcome to the hobby. Sorry, but it's not a new thing.

Where am I going with this? Ultimately all I want to say is "this version of the Tyranids are no more or no less 'Tyranid-y' than previous versions (though this version is arguably a little more comprehensive)". They are still Tyranids. They still have Carnifexes, Gaunt swarms, Genestealers, Warriors (now with Boneswords again!) etc, and they've even dragged in some of the more esoteric options like the Trygon.

Frankly it's making me want to strip the paint off of my Tyranids, sculpt a few Boneswords and start all over again.


If you could explain exactly *how* this representation of the Tyranids is totally against what they should be, then please go right ahead. Otherwise, this just looks like a knee-jerk reaction to change.

Cheitan Shadowless
14-01-2010, 22:36
Depends if you prefer to talk about the good and bad stuff about GW or if you would ratter complain about what kind of content people post on the forum. :rolleyes:
Well, I am inclined to quietly object to unduly snarky posts, so that would mean this place is not for me...but on the other hand, talking about all the good, the bad and the ugly stuff that GW has to offer is what I do most, so I suppose that means this place is for me. I guess I'll stick around another couple of years!

At any rate, I enjoyed your comparison to all the SW codex turbulence; much of that discussion has been a real hornet's nest. I remember thinking to myself how happy I was that it wasn't my army going through that - and now, here we are. :p

Also:

And yes the rumours and bitching is constructive, because of it people who might have forked a ton of cash on the new nids might change their mind and use their hard earned money for something else.
A superb point. While changing one's mind on the basis of hearsay and rumours (even very credible ones!) can be a somewhat tenuous affair, being mindful of said rumours will at the very least make you aware of the impending change, allowing you to prepare for it. And in this case, unless you are ultra-enthusiastic about the rumours, holding on to your money until you see what happens is certainly the wisest idea.

Treadhead_1st
14-01-2010, 22:48
Ok I truly don't understand.

The new Codex has gone from ~14 entries to 30+ entries (according to Designers Notes in WD), and has got a lot of models to go along with it.

People previously complained about a lack of units for the Bugs (particularly in the AT department) and a lack of variety in army lists.

Then we get a new book that has more-than-doubled the size of the units available, and people complain that they need to buy new stuff to remain competative and that it feels like a new army?

It's just doubled in size, I'd be concerned if it *didn't* feel like a new army, since there's so much new stuff to play and experiment with. But honestly, for all this whining, how many old models can't be used any more? Sure, the Carnifex loadout needs changing if you took a "sniper-fex" (count it as a Tyrannofex maybe?); but isn't everything else still fieldable, if at a different cost and level of power? Surely you can still play with all those Tyrants, Gaunts, Warriors and more-expensive Carnifex (that you "didn't take because it was good, or Nidzilla, but because you liked them") until such a time as you can afford new models and expand your range/replace the stuff that isn't performing too well?

Again, I'd be concerned if some units hadn't got less powerful when so many new units had got added.

To me this seems like a case of GW not being able to win.

Players: "We want new units and new options! Damn GW"
GW: "Ok, here you go, have fun!"
Players: "Waaah, there's new options and I have to buy stuff! It's broken, damn GW"

I don't recall this level of hysteria when the new Guard codex was released (there was some "The sky is falling!" but from opponents, particularly re: Storm Troopers and the Punisher; and look how wrong they were). We Guard players were glad that things had changed and we got new options, artwork and models since our old armies were a little stale given that there were few "decent" builds available. There was some gripe once we saw the cost of the Storm Trooper from those that had invested heavily (just like the Carnifex), but people either found a way to make them work if they liked the unit, and damn the cost (like I) or dropped them from the list in favour of the new toys (what most have done). Isn't either option viable for the Carnifex (I know I still want a pair if I start Nids)?

itcamefromthedeep
14-01-2010, 23:07
The new book isn't exactly ineffective, but it is kinda boring.

Give it couple months and most Tyranid lists will consist of these.

Hive Guard, no upgrades allowed.
Zoanthropes, no upgrades allowed.
Biovores, no upgrades allowed.
Tervigons bring Catalyst. Always and nothing else.
Carnifexes are Dakkafexes. That's about it.
Trygons might be Primes.
Genestealers may sometimes bring toxin sacs. Maybe.
The occasional Broodlord. Talons will be there, mostly because the model has them.
Termagants are there only if a Tervigon is. No upgrades.
Devilgaunts may exist. No upgrades.
The little guys will mostly be Hormagaunts. There might be Toxin Sacs or Adrenal Glands sometimes.
Warrior Alphas with twin boneswords and talons. Adrenal Glands if the player is adventurous.
You might see some diversity in Warriors. That's about the only place where there are decisions to be made.

Now, that's a bit of an exaggeration, just like like the myth of the ever-present Nidzilla. It takes a fool to bring 6 Carnifexes in 5e, because that means that you have only 2 synapse creatures, which isn't enough to keep your Gaunts around. People will be willing to try every unit and most combinations in this new codex, just like they do with the 4e one. However, if you've complained about Nidzilla being boring, I promise that there will be less variety in the new codex, at every level of play.

Honestly, if you think that the only Carnifexes out there are Sniperfexes and Dakkafexes, then I'll happily direct you to the Warpshadow galleries, where you can find almost all of the Carnifex upgrades represented in some way, shape or form.

---

The upgrades in the codex are sparse and badly priced, which means you won't see much variety in unit loadouts. Many of the expected-to-be-popular models don't even get options. There just aren't any decisions to be made.

With 4e Genestealers, sometimes you saw feeder tendrils, sometimes it was flesh hooks. Sometimes neither. You saw Genestealers with and without scything talons and/or extended carapace. Now, you'll just see naked Genestealers. Nothing else.



Really, the greater internal balance issues in this codex combined with a gutting of the options will lead to a pronounced lack of variety.

WinglessVT2
14-01-2010, 23:10
It appeals to me, which is something tyranids have never done previously.

You can do shooting, monsters, tiny guys, medium guys, lots of claws, fast stuff, infiltrating guys, deep striking guys, effective psykers, templates, high-strength shooting, mass of low-strength shooting, or a mix - you just can't do all of them at once.

Badger[Fr]
14-01-2010, 23:18
I don't recall this level of hysteria when the new Guard codex was released (there was some "The sky is falling!" but from opponents, particularly re: Storm Troopers and the Punisher; and look how wrong they were).
The reason is, the most iconic IG units, be it Leman Russes, Chimeras, or Infantry squads are still very competitive. The new toys are attractive, but hardly mandatory.

Try to imagine how most IG players would have reacted if their cherished Leman Russ Battle Tank had its front Armour Value downgraded to 13 and its price increased by 30 points, while a new shiny and expensive tank outperformed it in almost every conceivable way.

WinglessVT2
14-01-2010, 23:21
Imperial guard tanks sucked all through third and fourth edition.
They only became competitive in fifth, with the improved damage-chart, and the 'lumbering behemoth' rule.
Infantry squads used to suck, too, and people took the smallest possible platoons, while focusing their points elsewhere, for effectiveness. Chimeras were really expensive death-traps, and only became useful with the price drop, and the changed damage-table.

What are you complaining about again?

the1stpip
14-01-2010, 23:26
When the Chaos Codex was released, there was a wave of discontent, and dozens of threads popped up with people vehemently claiming they would never use the new Codex.

Sorry, for the record, I am one of those people.

You really cant value an army until you have played a few games with it, often the synergy between units can only come through when you actually use them.

WinglessVT2
14-01-2010, 23:27
The fact of the matter here is that most 'iconic' units tend to be quite weak and useless compared to the army's really good stuff.

Tactical marines have never been good, but became a realistic choice in fifth. Firewarriors are outright bad and expensive, and crisis suits were horribly ineffective under the tau's first book. Necron warriors are better off not being discussed.

Vaktathi
14-01-2010, 23:36
I think the biggest problem that I (and from what I have seen a lot of other people) have with the new Nid book is that my old list just plain doesn't work... Not because of points, not because of units shifted around the force tree, my units, specifically 3 Carnifexes and all of my warriors are invalid models/units. Effectively a lot of Tyranid players have the same issue that everyone had going from 2nd edition to 3rd edition 40k now. This is not something that even chaos players had to deal with in any amount with their new codex. They lost few Models from the list. And with the exception of having a few too many options none of thier units really got invalidated because of wargear.
Actually, much of the chaos codex had this problem as well. huge numbers of vehicle upgrades, unit options, and entire units simply disappeared. For instance, sonic weapons on anything but Noise Marine "troops" disappeared (from dreads, preds, havocs, terminators, etc.) cultists and differentiated daemons were lost, Icons replaced marks in the poorest way really not representing Legion troops well, and dozens upon dozens of upgrade options for lords, sorcerors, and DP's were reduced to almost nothing. In this regard, I really do understand that many Tyranid players are going to be infuriated if they built their armies really close to the previous codex in terms of the variety of options, it's understandable. That said, I think Tyranids got a lot more of what was lacking in the army than CSM did, primarily in dealing with mechanized units. It's basically an entirely new army with much more units available, even if options and costs are a bit off. CSM's were the same army with half the book ripped out.


The reason is, the most iconic IG units, be it Leman Russes, Chimeras, or Infantry squads are still very competitive. The new toys are attractive, but hardly mandatory. LRBT's were mediocre at best in the last book, and especially under the 4E rules. Chimeras are total junk, and infantry squads, by themselves, are still relatively cost inefficient (if you don't give them a chimera and build the army around them or merge them into a mega platoon) compared with Ork boys, grey hunters, CSM's, even hormagaunts. These things however all got *massive* boosts between the 5E rules and the new codex.



Try to imagine how most IG players would have reacted if their cherished Leman Russ Battle Tank had its front Armour Value downgraded to 13 and its price increased by 30 points, while a new shiny and expensive tank outperformed it in almost every conceivable way.I can understand this, but at the same time it's note entirely accurate. Base, a carnifex now is better than a basic carnifex was previously, just more expensive. If an LRBT started at AV13 base and had a plethora of upgrade options for armor, weapons etc, and then lost all those and became more expensive, we'd have a similar situation, but that's not the case, it's be more accurate if the LR lost all the variant builds and weapons upgrade options and went up in cost. Carnifex's really became more expensive and lost their upgrade options, the basic no frills didn't become worse off except for cost. Still a nerf, and probably too much of one, but not quite the same situation as the one you described.

Badger[Fr]
15-01-2010, 00:16
LRBT's were mediocre at best in the last book, and especially under the 4E rules.
The 4th Edition ruleset favoured skimmers and MC over bog-standard ground vehicles, but this had nothing to do with the Leman Russ rules themselves. If anything, the current LRBT and Demolishers are hardly different from their predecessors: it's slightly more expensive, got a slightly better side armour, a new special rule (with its benefits and drawbacks), and that's it. It doesn't make much of a difference, to be honest. And let's not mention the Basilisk...


These things however all got *massive* boosts between the 5E rules and the new codex.
And these boosts were sorely needed. Nerfing average units such as Gaunts, Genestealers, or Lictors, however, doesn't make any sense.


I can understand this, but at the same time it's note entirely accurate.
Indeed, because the standard Leman Russ build has always been the most efficient one. But what if, say, the Leman Russ Exterminator (or any other unpopular build) had become the default LR variant? And costed 170 points? And you had to pay an additional 40 points in order to get a Battlecanon? And you couldn't buy any sponsons?


Base, a carnifex now is better than a basic carnifex was previously, just more expensive.
Much, much more expensive. Almost twice as much expensive, depending on the build. At the moment, a CC Carnifex doesn't stand a chance against any other similarily-costed MC, be it the Avatar or a Daemon Prince, yet is slower to boot.

There are many glaring internal balance issues in the new Tyranid book that I still fail to understand.

shadowtyrant
15-01-2010, 00:18
It was a good idea to post this and look at your comments, since i only know my local meta and the situation around there. So i made this thread to see what other people think. and i learned some useful things so far.

First of, i am german and, being able to speak english on an average level, i sometimes lack the right word for what i want to express; then i use a word that seems to be the best approximate for my intention that i could think of. I must admit that this was the case with the word "issue". Sorry for that.

I just read the forum since the 5th ed orc dex and every time i just saw the total hype, but nids are the first dex i see whining everywhere, so i was curios. But as said above i only know my local cosmos and wanted to hear more opinions.

One thing i must say here:
it seems that the codex is playable and competitive. I guess I playtested it longer than most of you (since i am german and already had my copy in the midst of december). New players and nid-opponents like what they see; the complains mostly come from veterans. Cause they don't complain that the dex is unplayable or underpowered (if you think so, than you did not test it, am i right? wait for your copy and make some tests, then you could decide on playability)., but that it "feels wrong" and is not the tyranids anymore.

I can just speak for myself and what i have seen in my meta, but here is why it "seems to be another army":

I dislike to see that things like the biovore got nerfed (i was surpised to see that people here on warseer say it got better, but that showed me that all the arguments are restricted to their local meta; it's full of 3+sv and vehicles, there are no psykers around; i used the biovores acidmines to block paths but now a vehicle can easily drive over them without taking any damageand the path is free again)

There are changes needed, but that is not the problem. I am playing since 3rd ed. I am playing Tyranids, Eldar and chaosdemons. There were changes before and i never complained. It was a pity when the nids lost their mutations from 3rd to 4th, but they still were all about mutation with the biomorps used to alter the profile; you could make cool conversions and create "new" models since all the changes altered the stats and the idea of Sx weapons fit in that quite well.
But now there are just static units left in the new dex; you could of course convert the models, but they all have the same profile. Someone mentioned the new nids playing like Eldar. Thats right, but that is what people call "another army". Biomorphs are just plain normal eq. and there are many units that can not even be equipped at all.
There are more things like fluff changes that contradict the old fluff, but that happened to other dexes before; but all the small things sum up and make the codex "feel wrong" to people like me (the mutability was what nids were about for me and there is nothing left from that).
If there would be another race that allows creating/altering the models/stats and make the units that dynamical, i would stop complaining and start the new army, but that was what nids were all about and there is no alternative left for that.

Oh, and please stop asuming that everyone that complains is unhappy about nidzilla being nerfed. In my meta there are only few nids player and no one of them played nidzilla or stealershock! But that is about different meta again and i start repeating myself.

CapnBob
15-01-2010, 00:21
Carnifex's really became more expensive and lost their upgrade options, the basic no frills didn't become worse off except for cost. Still a nerf, and probably too much of one, but not quite the same situation as the one you described.

Carnifex 2nd editon: terminator armor save, WS 6, strength 7 but with an ability to make a S10 attack in CC, did not always go last in CC, Ld10. Fearless.

Carnifex 3rd edition: space marine save, upgradeable to terminator. WS on par with space marines, S10, I2, Ld10. Fearless.

Carnifex 4th edition: added cheap no frills version at S9, I1, but upgradeable to previous abilities including the terminator class save. Still Ld10 and still Fearless, FAQ'ed to ignore instinctive behavior.

Carnifex 5th edition: Locked to 4th edition no frills version, so no terminator save, no going before powerfists except on charge (unless you have crushing claws), no S10, and Fearless is actually worse now... hurts it in close combat, and does NOT make it exempt from the new Instinctive Behavior. Ld has dropped considerably, so you will lose control of your carnifex outside of synapse range nearly 50% of the time (5/11).

I'd say that's actually worse than the comparison he was making.

shadowtyrant
15-01-2010, 00:24
Regarding the fexes (and some others):
they are not the worst because of the new point costs IMO; thats to generalistic. 180-190 points is a good value for the daccafex, but all the builds have been risen enormous in price and some builds got nerfed through that (no, not the sniperfex, this one is just unavialible). I would like to see the basic costs somewhat decreased and the eq costs increased so that the dakkafex keeps its new cost, but some other build become somewhat cheaper and more competitive to the new units (GW wants to sell new stuff, ok. But if the new stuff was good and the old stuff was quite good they could sell new AND old stuff instead of just the new stuff)

WinglessVT2
15-01-2010, 00:26
When you can destroy every other unit in the game, you should not cost below 90 points base.

The new cost for the big monsters is just fine, and in line with their killyness, especially compared to tanks and characters.

Vepr
15-01-2010, 00:33
I just think the fex is about 25 points more than it should be. We all had to expect the price change everyone knew it was coming but I was expecting more along the lines of 135 base. Also some of the upgrades like crushing claws and toxin sacs are actually downgrades. :p

Vaktathi
15-01-2010, 00:34
Carnifex 5th edition: Locked to 4th edition no frills version, so no terminator save, no going before powerfists except on charge (unless you have crushing claws), no S10, and Fearless is actually worse now... hurts it in close combat, and does NOT make it exempt from the new Instinctive Behavior. Ld has dropped considerably, so you will lose control of your carnifex outside of synapse range nearly 50% of the time (5/11). You also forgot higher BS base, more attacks base, and rerolls to hit.

It's much more expensive yes, but it's also at least a little better than the older one base. I'm not saying it's not overcosted, I'm just saying the comparison wasn't entirely accurate.


]The 4th Edition ruleset favoured skimmers and MC over bog-standard ground vehicles, but this had nothing to do with the Leman Russ rules themselves. If anything, the current LRBT and Demolishers are hardly different from their predecessors: it's slightly more expensive, got a slightly better side armour, a new special rule (with its benefits and drawbacks), and that's it. It doesn't make much of a difference, to be honest. And let's not mention the Basilisk... The Lumbering Behemoth rule, better side armor, more lethal weapons options, and 5th ed vehicle rules made a huge difference. the lumbering behemoth speed nerf hardly matters. what's up with the bassy that I'm apparently missing?

CapnBob
15-01-2010, 00:49
You also forgot higher BS base, more attacks base, and rerolls to hit.

the BS is simply back to 3rd edition level and especially with the de-emphasis on the carnifex guns it's hardly a big deal. The attack number is nice, as are the re-rolls, but it's not really worth it for such a slow unit except against immobilized tanks.

Speaking of slow units, why does Old One Eye have the living battering ram rule? It's overridden by his crushing claws, so it doesn't do anything at all.

MystheDevourer
15-01-2010, 00:50
When you can destroy every other unit in the game, you should not cost below 90 points base.

The new cost for the big monsters is just fine, and in line with their killyness, especially compared to tanks and characters.

The new cost is not in line, So for the same cost as 10 man SM Tactical Squad that gets a heavy weapon and a plasma gun my carnifex is completly bare but with what he starts out with. No biomorphs or anything. Its more expensive then a Pure lascannon Pred for crying out loud!

Badger[Fr]
15-01-2010, 10:42
The Lumbering Behemoth rule, better side armor, more lethal weapons options, and 5th ed vehicle rules made a huge difference.
The 5th Edition rules regarding vehicles were a huge improvement, but neither Lumbering Behemot nor the superior side armour make much of a difference IMHO. If anything, LB is situational on sponsonsless tanks, and the side armour of Demolishers remains the same despite a noticeable point rise. The front armour value of 14 and the Battlecanon still are the two main features of the LRBT.


what's up with the bassy that I'm apparently missing?
It's exactly the same. It hasn't been nerfed nor improved. Even by the 5th Edition Codex standards, the 3rd Edition IG Heavy Support (and Fast Attack as well) choices were hardly weak. Granted, the previous Codex as a whole was awful, and the army simply didn't worked, but still, the efficient choices of the previous Edition weren't nerfed to the verge of uselessness.



they are not the worst because of the new point costs IMO;
Well, I fear the bog standard Carnifex is from now on the worst MC in the entire game (even compared to other Tyranid MCs!). A similarily costed Avatar, Daemon Prince, Wraithlords or Greater Daemon (even a Summoned Greater Daemon) will almost always have the upper hand against it. I don't mind shooty Carnifices getting nerfed, but did CC builds deserved such a nerf? A WS 3 (Powerfist bait, you said?), slow, and vulnerable MC with limited ranged abilities should not cost more than a damned Leman Russ.

totgeboren
15-01-2010, 12:01
I hope my opponent doesn't include any carnifexes anymore. Then I can just shoot his Zoathropes with my Land Raider, and when they are dead, I´ll just plow right into his horde. Try claiming any objectives now sucka. :P

Geep
15-01-2010, 12:13
I don't see why there's so much whining over the carnifex- Sure they're more expensive, but I can have up to 3 as a single heavy support choice (leaving other options open, unlike the previous Nidzilla lists) and they're still T6 with 4 wounds- that squad will take a lot of fire and be a serious distraction to the opponent (and, if it doesn't, 4 attacks per fex re-rolling to hit will really hurt whatever it hits). Meanwhile, you can also have a Trygon and swarms of gaunts- target saturation is the cornerstone of this book and it looks like it will work.
I'll definitely be trying out a lot of the options presented in this book.


it's not really worth it for such a slow unit except against immobilized tanks.
'Fexes have never been the killer of fast vehicles- why did people think this is the role they would suddenly take?

oCoYoRoAoKo
15-01-2010, 12:30
I have the codex and my judgement is that it is sub-par in both the background writing and the army-list (So the swarmlord is basically a necron lord :confused: ). There are some very good choices (Trygon/Hive-guard/Zoans/Tervigon) but what you are comparing them to is so bad (or so expensive) that they become no-brainers.

As for people saying more units=more vairety i say that in the case of this book that arguement doesnt hold water. I can easily name a number of units that we might aswell not have (the pyrovore being at the top of the list) because there are far better units for the same role. The ideal book would have all units fullfilling a purpose, including the generic 'jack of all trades. master of none' role, with each one being worth taking in some form or another. This book is far from that which indicates poor internal balance.

Off topic: A unit of 3 Carnies vs 1 Swarmlord in combat...result = 3 dead carnies :wtf:

Cy.

the_picto
15-01-2010, 12:39
I'd be quite happy to let some one use the old nid codex, if they let me use my 2nd ed eldar codex. Toughness 10 avatar FTW!

totgeboren
15-01-2010, 12:59
Off topic: A unit of 3 Carnies vs 1 Swarmlord in combat...result = 3 dead carnies :wtf:

Cy.

Try it out with 3 Ironclads vs 1 Swarmlord, and 3 Ironclads vs 3 Carnies instead. :P

Or really, its abit unfair to compare the Swarmlord with a Carnifex in a one-on-one situation, since the Swarmlord has got abilities that negate ALL the powerful features of a Carnifex.

It makes as much sence in comparing how good a Swarmlord is vs a Land Raider and how good a Carnifex is vs the same, since in that comparison, the Carnifex is much much better.

oCoYoRoAoKo
15-01-2010, 13:04
Try it out with 3 Ironclads vs 1 Swarmlord, and 3 Ironclads vs 3 Carnies instead. :P

Or really, its abit unfair to compare the Sawrmlord with a Carnifex in a one-on-one situation, since the Swarmlord has got abilities that negate ALL the powerful features of a Carnifex.

lol, yeah i know, it was just something that flew into my head at the time.

Cy.

itcamefromthedeep
15-01-2010, 13:05
I hope my opponent doesn't include any carnifexes anymore. Then I can just shoot his Zoathropes with my Land Raider, and when they are dead, I´ll just plow right into his horde. Try claiming any objectives now sucka. :P
So, what's stopping the Hive Tyrants and Trygons from killing it again? I missed that part of the strategy. Hell, the Tervigons playing babysitter at the Tyranid objective can do the job.


I don't see why there's so much whining over the carnifex- Sure they're more expensive, but I can have up to 3 as a single heavy support choice (leaving other options open, unlike the previous Nidzilla lists) and they're still T6 with 4 wounds- that squad will take a lot of fire and be a serious distraction to the opponent (and, if it doesn't, 4 attacks per fex re-rolling to hit will really hurt whatever it hits).
A full Carnifex brood will run you almost 500 points minimum. Why in God's name would I take a 500 point distraction? At 500 points, I could just bring a pair of Tyrannofexes with their Rupture Cannons.

That brood represents what I'm paying for 3 Zoanthropes and 6 Hive Guard, which are actually scary.

That's the price of the Swarmlord or a tooled-up Hive Tyrant and 3 Tyrant Guard with boneswords, which is a much meaner brood with more durability.

The brood that I'll be bringing to a game for fun will be bringing Adrenal Glands and Spore Cysts. The problem with them is that instead of that I could be bringing a bare-bones Hive Tyrant, 3 Tyrant Guard, and 3 Zoanthropes. The latter is the more effective choice, I have no doubt of that.

That's the price of those 5 hammer/shield Terminators in a Land Raider with all the fixin's. It really doesn't compare.

Rirekon
15-01-2010, 13:56
Got my copy today and just had a chance to have a quick read through, and in all honesty I'm quite happy with most of the changes and additions from the old book.

Go figure.

bluenova
15-01-2010, 14:36
The Carnifex is awesome - re-rolling misses and killing nearly everything they touch, regenerating those pesky wounds they keep taking, they can happily, and casually, walk up to your opponent's force and eat the lot :evilgrin:

"But they're so expensive!" - that's because they'll win the game for you, soaking up the incoming fire and shrugging off the damage while your cheaper troops cover the objectives.

2 or 3 together, with regenerate (the only upgrade you need for them), are gonna be hard to shift. 2 or 3 broods of them (in 1500-3000pts games) will be near impossible to take down.

That's the new Carnifex-based Nidzilla army. Pretty tough, but lacks versatility (says the guy running Stealer-shock :angel:).

azimaith
15-01-2010, 14:38
I think most of the problems are caused by the fact that a LOT has changed in the new codex. People want cheap carnifexes, but they lost those.
If you distance yourself from the army for a moment, and look at the codex as if it were an army you DON'T own, you'll see the book is actually quite nice. There are some really powerful builds in there, and lots of nice little options and tricks to try. The problem is that people don't like to remodel/buy new models to get the best out of this codex. And they seem to think they are the only ones who had this done to the.
The problem isn't it changed a lot so much as almost everything got much, much more expensive. Were not talking 10 points here, 15 points there, were talking 40-75 points. Now everyone is saying "well you get a lot of bonuses with them.
This is true. While my old flying tyrant was 188 points of 5 attack, 2 wound per attack, hitting on 3+ of ass kicking my new flyrant is 230 points with wings alone, that gives me re-rolls to hit, 2 psychic powers, and ws8 (Which is for the most part, a waste.)

The problem is that if I want to make a 1500 point list I can't really use a flying tyrant anymore. Compare this with even the woeful chaos list I can get a flying daemon prince for a bargain of some 130 points.

The new nids have the same problem as the necrons, unless you're playing huge games you don't really have many options you can afford because everything comes stacked with bonuses you may not want or use.

Why does the new tyrant *come* with two powers (which are factored into its base cost naturally) when they could have let me pick if I wanted two, one, or none allowing me to scale down for 1500 point games or scale up for 2000.

This is exacerbated by a very slow moving HQ section, you either pick up the parasite (which isn't monstrous) or you have to use a flying tyrant or you're trundling up the battlefield. Combine this with a lack of options for mycetic spores in the HQ and you're even slower. At least with a Tyranid Prime Alpha Warrior you can throw him into a mycetic spore along side a squad of warriors you join before the game I suppose.

The troops suffers the same way. Hormagaunts can be made more offensive than before if you're willing to pay the same as before but once again, you still suffer badly under shooting and in assault. Termagants benefit from tervigons but at the same time yo outpace said MC with you're movement.

Look at fex vs trygons. The carnifex costs so much that just getting the same deep strike ability as a trygon makes it cost the same with 2 less attacks, 2 less weapon skill, 3 less init, 2 less wounds, and 1 less leadership. You're benefit? 3 point of strength. Somehow in 40 points=deep strike, 2 weapon skill, 2 attacks, 3 init, 2 wounds, and 1 leadership and-3 strength.

Most of the tyranid players are just wondering why so many things sky rocketed in price while things that were horribly overpriced stayed the same, increased, or dropped in a tiny way. Carnifex earlier weren't really overpowered, they were slow and relatively inaccurate. It wasn't until people starting using them with devourers en masse did they get out of hand, it certainly didn't warrant doubling their cost nearly (5 points less than doubled), and subtracting 3 leadership to give them re-rolls to hit in CC, 2 attacks, one ballistic skill, and init 3 on the charge. They could have easily just increased devourer cost and base cost a little bit (like 15 points) and it would be fine.

The codex is frankly, disappointing, its a design that's fine for games that are some 2k+ points, but at 1500 points it suffers really badly from the overcosting.


The Carnifex is awesome - re-rolling misses and killing nearly everything they touch, regenerating those pesky wounds they keep taking, they can happily, and casually, walk up to your opponent's force and eat the lot :evilgrin:

"But they're so expensive!" - that's because they'll win the game for you, soaking up the incoming fire and shrugging off the damage while your cheaper troops cover the objectives.

2 or 3 together, with regenerate (the only upgrade you need for them), are gonna be hard to shift. 2 or 3 broods of them (in 1500-3000pts games) will be near impossible to take down.

That's the new Carnifex-based Nidzilla army. Pretty tough, but lacks versatility (says the guy running Stealer-shock :angel:).
Um, what are you going to do when the opponent walks in the opposite direction of your carnifex. 2 broods of 2 in 1500 points is *740 points* (why would you want or need 4 carnifex your enemy could walk away from?)

You act as if its no problem you spend 50% of your army on 4 models in 1500 points (which is the minimum you can even have if you have multiple broods of 2-3)
This notion, is frankly, insane.


I don't see why there's so much whining over the carnifex- Sure they're more expensive, but I can have up to 3 as a single heavy support choice (leaving other options open, unlike the previous Nidzilla lists) and they're still T6 with 4 wounds- that squad will take a lot of fire and be a serious distraction to the opponent (and, if it doesn't, 4 attacks per fex re-rolling to hit will really hurt whatever it hits). Meanwhile, you can also have a Trygon and swarms of gaunts- target saturation is the cornerstone of this book and it looks like it will work.
I'll definitely be trying out a lot of the options presented in this book.

You're going to make a 480 point *walking speed* distraction? They won't even have to pay attention to it for the first 3 turns and on the fourth they just need to walk in the opposite direction. You're tying up a third of a 1500 point army on a unit that can't do a damn thing for 3 turns at least.



'Fexes have never been the killer of fast vehicles- why did people think this is the role they would suddenly take?
People don't. However, every vehicle that's not a monolith or a leman russ is automatically able to outrun a carnifex. Couple that with a proliferation of "extra armor" and its gets even worse. A land raider or a chimera are never described as "fast" vehicles" but they can (and do) move faster than a carnifex. Unless you get into base to base for a turn you can't catch them.
They're just not killers of any vehicle that can't be stunned or can move 12".

So now you've got an mc that can't catch any vehicle with extra armor, is inferior in combat with normal units compared to the trygon, and offers almost no points discount over said units. It can't even boast more wounds or armor than most other MC's.

bluenova
15-01-2010, 14:55
Um, what are you going to do when the opponent walks in the opposite direction of your carnifex. 2 broods of 2 in 1500 points is *740 points* (why would you want or need 4 carnifex your enemy could walk away from?)

You act as if its no problem you spend 50% of your army on 4 models in 1500 points (which is the minimum you can even have if you have multiple broods of 2-3)
This notion, is frankly, insane.

Correction: 50% of the points on four models that will win the game for you - not really that insane.

The enemy can only walk so far, and the Carnifexes will still be there at the end of the game. The point of my post was that in broods, with regenerate, they become almost unstoppable.

Not the way I like to play (like I said in my other post), but for the nidzilla fans out there it's a no-brainer.

azimaith
15-01-2010, 14:57
Correction: 50% of the points on four models that will win the game for you - not really that insane.

The enemy can only walk so far, and the Carnifexes will still be there at the end of the game. The point of my post was that in broods, with regenerate, they become almost unstoppable.

Not the way I like to play (like I said in my other post), but for the nidzilla fans out there it's a no-brainer.
How are you going to win the game with no scoring units. 4 slow moving carnifex will not wipe out an entire enemy army on their own.

The new tyranid codex plays a lot like foot slogging orks where previous editions tyranids were viciously fast getting to grips with enemies typically on turn 2-3, now its more like 3-4 unless you want to play a very small, very elite force of models with 3-4+ saves.

Killgore
15-01-2010, 15:00
People rant about a Carnifex's speed, I dont see the major issue.

I own 2 Carnifexs and in the new codex I intend on using them as home objective insurance.

Keep them near my objectives and when my opponent makes a move for them they will have to deal with Mr Carnifex first :P Or I could just walk them up the centre of the Board with my Hive Tyrant.

The Speedier Trygon will be leading the line against my foe's objectives with my faster units.

As my Tyranid army has always been small the new codex looks exciting from a outsider looking in perspective.

bluenova
15-01-2010, 15:00
@ Azimaith: Dude, we've already established that those 4 carnifex were only 50% of the army - what do you think the other 50% is made up of?

azimaith
15-01-2010, 15:02
Dude, we've already established that those 4 carnifex were only 50% of the army - what do you think the other 50% is made up of?

If its nidzilla you have a tyrants which another 30% of your army at 250 points each easy, then you need troops, which fill the remaining 20%. I'll be damned the day I can't kill 300 some points of 4+ to 6+ save troops.

bluenova
15-01-2010, 15:05
And ignore the MCs coming towards you? Interesting choice.

Anyway, been an interesting distraction from work, but I have to be getting back to it now. Have fun discussing :-)

azimaith
15-01-2010, 15:09
Absolutely I'll ignore them, they're all walking which means I have three turns to let them waltz on up. With no scoring units I can only lose if I get wiped out in my entirety. If I happen to be using an army with transports it will be even less of an issue because then I can ignore the MCs when they get close as well by driving away.

Vepr
15-01-2010, 15:13
The fex is not unusable, there is just no reason to use it unless you are sure you are going to get suicide charges from land raiders. I have been trying to find a place in games for the fex because I love the model and I have three of them magnetized. Unfortunately they are just beat out in their own codex. It does not mean you cannot play them but you are handicapping yourself for the points especially if you take 3 in a brood. There is no way around it the trygons have better utility and you can pod in Zoans that don't have to plod after vehicles. I will still probably take one and try to make it work in various ways because I am stubborn like that but I am not going to kid myself about the effectiveness.

I will say that it is harder to make small lists now. It is not impossible but just a lot tougher.

razormasticator
15-01-2010, 15:23
Imperial guard tanks sucked all through third and fourth edition.
They only became competitive in fifth, with the improved damage-chart, and the 'lumbering behemoth' rule.
Infantry squads used to suck, too, and people took the smallest possible platoons, while focusing their points elsewhere, for effectiveness. Chimeras were really expensive death-traps, and only became useful with the price drop, and the changed damage-table.

What are you complaining about again?

This is true, as a long time Guard player the Leman Russ was overpriced in the 4th ed and previous codex. You were better off with a demolisher and parking it somewhere and shooting things. Otherwise all you could shoot with your russ most times was a BC.

I plan on alternating a pair of dakka fexes or a pair of screamer killers in my lists where possible.
I also look forwards to trying out the Crushing Claws/Devourer combo.

Badger[Fr]
15-01-2010, 15:42
So now you've got an mc that can't catch any vehicle with extra armor, is inferior in combat with normal units compared to the trygon, and offers almost no points discount over said units. It can't even boast more wounds or armor than most other MC's.

And, on top of that, the poor Carnifex is no match for any other similarily costed MC. Even a Tactical Squad with a Missile Launcher and a Powerfist can reliably take it down.


This is true, as a long time Guard player the Leman Russ was overpriced in the 4th ed and previous codex.
How so? The previous Leman Russ was ten points cheaper, and already featured its two main assets: a front Av of 14 and a deadly Battlecanon.

BigBossOgryn
15-01-2010, 15:46
I think it's a little unfair that lines are being drawn with people who think the new codex is wonderful on one side and people who don't like it on other and being denounced as 'hysterical' and 'silly'. Not fair at all.

At the end of the day. it's YOUR hobby. If you have concerns about the new codex rendering your existing army obsolete and you don't want to use it, then don't. If your gaming group are happy to allow to continue using the previous book then that's all good.

Adversly, jumping online and denouncing the codex as 'rubbish' is equally unfair. It's disrespectful to the guy who wrote it and gives the impression you are lamenting after the old book for the wrong reasons.

I'd say give it a chance before you write it off.

azimaith
15-01-2010, 15:51
Any other similarly costed MC, yes, a tac squad with a missile and powerfist, I'm not so sure.
Say 1 wound from a missile before it enters combat and it charges (not really likely, but still.)
5 attacks, 3 hits rounding up. 2 re-rolls, 1 more hit. 4 hits, 4 wounds, 4 dead. 9 regular marine attacks, 6 hits, 1 wound, all saves made.
Powerfist swings, 2 attacks, 1 hit, one wound.
2 wounds on the fex, 6 left on the squad, squad makes its check (if it fails the carni is worse off.)

Once again, regular tacs probably do nothing.
carni and fist swing, carni gets 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 re-rolls equal 3 hits. 3 wounds, 3 more dead.
Powerfist deals another wound. 7 dead marines and a carni with one wound.
If this plays out the same next turn the carni will die wiping the rest of the squad out. Since that and the carni is a little cheaper than the tac squad.

Thats all assuming it doesn't get shot at on the 4 turns its running in outside of one missile wound. If we made the carnifex the same cost as the tac squad we could probably come out on top pretty well.

razormasticator
15-01-2010, 15:57
;4301051']And, on top of that, the poor Carnifex is no match for any other similarily costed MC. Even a Tactical Squad with a Missile Launcher and a Powerfist can reliably take it down.


How so? The previous Leman Russ was ten points cheaper, and already featured its two main assets: a front Av of 14 and a deadly Battlecanon.

Because you could not move and shoot the BC and it hampered its effectivness in my experience.

Broken Loose
15-01-2010, 16:01
Any other similarly costed MC, yes, a tac squad with a missile and powerfist, I'm not so sure.
Say 1 wound from a missile before it enters combat and it charges (not really likely, but still.)
5 attacks, 3 hits rounding up. 2 re-rolls, 1 more hit. 4 hits, 4 wounds, 4 dead. 9 regular marine attacks, 6 hits, 1 wound, all saves made.
Powerfist swings, 2 attacks, 1 hit, one wound.
2 wounds on the fex, 6 left on the squad, squad makes its check (if it fails the carni is worse off.)

Once again, regular tacs probably do nothing.
carni and fist swing, carni gets 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 re-rolls equal 3 hits. 3 wounds, 3 more dead.
Powerfist deals another wound. 7 dead marines and a carni with one wound.
If this plays out the same next turn the carni will die wiping the rest of the squad out. Since that and the carni is a little cheaper than the tac squad.

Thats all assuming it doesn't get shot at on the 4 turns its running in outside of one missile wound. If we made the carnifex the same cost as the tac squad we could probably come out on top pretty well.

Your math is ignoring the fact that the fex is now stuck at WS3.

Chem-Dog
15-01-2010, 16:03
I haven't had a look at the book yet but I honestly can't believe that Mr Cruddace would balls the Tyranids so comprehensively after putting in such a solid effort on the IG.

Badger[Fr]
15-01-2010, 16:03
Because you could not move and shoot the BC and it hampered its effectivness in my experience.
This is not how 4th Edition rules regarding Ordnance weapons actually worked. It's an old 3rd Edition rule that has been fixed years ago.



5 attacks, 3 hits rounding up. 2 re-rolls, 1 more hit. 4 hits, 4 wounds, 4 dead. 9 regular marine attacks, 6 hits, 1 wound, all saves made.
Powerfist swings, 2 attacks, 1 hit, one wound.
Keep in mind Carnifices are only WS 3, and a SM Powerfist will therefore hit them on a roll of 3+. It makes a huge difference, as there is a significant chance the PF toting Marine scores two wounds.



Once again, regular tacs probably do nothing.
They use Combat Tactics, flee, then automatically regroup and either charge the Carnifex (that's 3 Powerfists attacks that hit on 3+, so on average, roughly two wounds) or gun it down if they have a Plasma or a Meltagun.

Of course, this is nothing but theoryhammer in a vacuum, yet it still shows that a Carnifex is much more vulnerable than it seems to be at first glance.

azimaith
15-01-2010, 16:06
Your math is ignoring the fact that the fex is now stuck at WS3.

That means 2 attacks =1.32 hits. .32<.5 so I round down as its less likely to happen than it is.

razormasticator
15-01-2010, 16:07
;4301119']This is not how 4th Edition rules regarding Ordnance weapons actually worked. It's an old 3rd Edition rule that has been fixed years ago.


Keep in mind Carnifices are only WS 3, and a SM Powerfist will therefore hit them on a roll of 3+. It makes a huge difference, as there is a significant chance the PF toting Marine scores two wounds.


They use Combat Tactics, flee, then automatically regroup and either charge the Carnifex (that's 3 Powerfists attacks that hit on 3+, so on average, roughly two wounds) or gun it down if they have a Plasma or a Meltagun.

Of course, this is nothing but theoryhammer in a vacuum, yet it still shows that a Carnifex is much more vulnerable than it seems to be at first glance.


If I recall correctly from 4th edition, you could move and shoot one weapon provided or 1 ordinance weapon. So you have a fully kitted out tank, for the cost it had with sponsons etc and you could move it 6" and only shoot 1 weapon. Explain to me how that is something great?

If found it tactically restraining, you dont have to agree with me. Thats fine, but thats my perspective on the Russ. I think its far better now with Lumbering Behemoth.

azimaith
15-01-2010, 16:07
;4301119']
They use Combat Tactics, flee, then automatically regroup and either charge the Carnifex (that's 3 Powerfists attacks that hit on 3+, so on average, roughly two wounds) or gun it down if they have a Plasma or a Meltagun.

Of course, this is nothing but theoryhammer in a vacuum, yet it still shows that a Carnifex is much more vulnerable than it seems to be at first glance.

If we're talking about actual game you won't be alone in either case and you probably won't have a carnifex that's some 40 points cheaper than the tac squad its squashing.

Badger[Fr]
15-01-2010, 16:18
If we're talking about actual game you won't be alone [...]
Indeed, but neither will the Marines. If anything, the SM player can ignore the Carnifex for at least three turns, then kill it with a couple of specialized units (be it Devastator Marines, Melta-toting Bikers or the infamous Assault Terminators). The sad truth remains that Carnifices are slow, expensive, vulnerable, and not even that impressive compared to other CC dedicated units (be they Ogryns, Terminators, or other MCs).

Thud
15-01-2010, 18:21
I haven't had a look at the book yet but I honestly can't believe that Mr Cruddace would balls the Tyranids so comprehensively after putting in such a solid effort on the IG.

He didn't, and I honestly don't get why there's so much whining about it. It's a good codex that allows for several different competitive builds.

Dreachon
15-01-2010, 18:39
He didn't, and I honestly don't get why there's so much whining about it. It's a good codex that allows for several different competitive builds.

It's not whining, it's pointing out some of the heavy internal imbalance in the codex, a solid codex would not have a unit as poor as the pyrovore competing with other must have elites like zoanthroeps and hiveguard.

Souleater
15-01-2010, 18:45
For example a Broodlord is now much more of a threat to an enemy squad by spurting Acid Blood all over the enemy.

Is an ability that can kill 2/3 of an Ork Mob of thirty models every time it triggers really only worth 15pts?

Why does a weapon with double the number of shots, higher Strength and penalty to morale tests cost the same as a Deathspitter?

Thud
15-01-2010, 18:52
It's not whining, it's pointing out some of the heavy internal imbalance in the codex, a solid codex would not have a unit as poor as the pyrovore competing with other must have elites like zoanthroeps and hiveguard.

Can you name one competitive codex which does not have at least one poor choice competing with good units?

Mad Larkin UK
15-01-2010, 18:58
I got my copy of the tyranid codex today. Its ok, im not upset so much as disappointed. There are too many wtf moments for me. For example, why do deathleaper and Lictors have instinctive behaviour? They are Vanguard organisms, they operate behind enemy lines cut off from the hive mind for years sometimes, without the hive mind!

Also is the huge lack of long range anti tank, besides zoanthrobes which are one hit wonders and quite expensive. I mean, why are venom cannons blasts now? They were never blasts before, and it takes away from their anti tank potential, as does the fact that to get one you have to pay for it dearly. What was wrong with giving warriors a heavy venom cannon?

Some of the new characters are fun and new to play. Deathleaper and The parasite of Mortex are entertaining, and the Tervigon is a nice unit. But some units are never going to see play, and the choice of what units can take mycetic spores is far too limiting.

Would have liked to see some kind of invunerable saves, even if its only 5+. You pay alot of points for a trygon, which against lascannons or krak missiles might as well be 6 space marines in the open. I played 2 games today against guard and got gunned down far too easily. Nothing the the tyranid army save zoanthrobes has an invunerable from shooting, and the venomthrobe is far too easy to kill to warrent the 5+ cover save ever being useful.

Overall, another mediocre codex that wont upset the mix at the top of tourneys i think.

EmperorEternalXIX
15-01-2010, 19:17
This is just changerage, really.

I perused the book at our LGS, and I have to say, it looks a lot more true to fluff than the old list looked, if only because it promotes a wide variety of unit types.

The Carnifex issue is bogus fabrication, as is the Hive Tyrant one. All of us have units that are that expensive; not all of us have ones that can fly, reduce stats to 1, etc.

I saw people talking about using squads of Gargoyles to give the big flyrant a cover save the other day. If you read the novels, this is the kind of thing the Tyranids DO.

A lot of the complaints seem to point at old models being put to the wayside but I see a lot of improvement. Those genestealers might start seeing some table time now that they are massively cheaper (aren't they 14 pts each now as opposed to like 22 each with biomorphs before?), not to mention the new Xhjefbgjdkgkfdfjkgbn genestealers and their cool little trick. The stabby little dudes (I always mix up the different types of Gaunts, they all look alike to me, heh) lost their 12" charge I believe, but they gained a price cut (biomorphs are less necessary now) thanks to their new scything talon rule.

A LOT of models come with the ability to re-roll either 1's or everything thanks to the scything talons; I think people are seriously underestimating the worth of this. I am also better that it will be ruled that they can work in concert with other weaponry (otherwise why have the option to equip multiples? Yeah you could switch, but it seems gimpy for a Cruddace codex). For every complaint I hear about the Carnifex no one seems to want to stop and notice his most annoying failing point (his Initiative) has been rectified.

I dunno. This is mostly whining to me; the book seems quite powerful and it seemed from my reading of it that on the table top, it will play much like the Nids behave in the fluff. That aside, you got:

1.) The only Non-SM drop pods in the game (which are apparently scoring units in some cases)
2.) More monstrous creatures than almost the entire rest of the game
3.) The first MC squad
4.) The most deadly infiltration abilities every seen (Mawloc, Ymghfgdhdgfh Stealers, Death Leaper, etc)
5.) More 3-wound models than any other army in the game
6.) Some of the most potent psychic powers in the game
7.) The best mid-range anti-tank weapon in the game currently (the Zoanthrope lance attack)
8.) The infamous "Terminator save"

And that's all vaguely just off the top of my head from flipping through the book for five minutes.

The idea that the new codex is not nid-like, and that there is a movement of people who consider it an entirely separate 40k species, is ludicrous. With respect to the OP, I don't know where you get your info, but your ten friends at your local club really =/= the greater 40k community at large.

On my end of the world in Boston, the Tyranid players are salivating with delight. There is literal fiendish rejoicing especially at my club, where our best player is a career Tyranid player and he is positively alight with sinister joy (there was even fiendish laugher as he read the dex!!).

I don't understand. Almost everything that lost something got access to something better. You guys comparing yourselves to the Chaos people is a wild comparison; Chaos had all the flavor stripped out of its codex. The Nid codex had a massive injection of it. This is a good codex, and I think time will find it to be one of the most competitive, since it has diplomatic immunity to the melta spam that has dominated the board lately.

This list is going to single-handedly change the meta game, if you ask me.

Neffertech
15-01-2010, 20:12
Hey I like the codex, there are some badly written items which lead to confusion but otherwise it is a good book.

And Drop Pods can't score, even as troops. Pg 90 says they are a separate non scoring unit.

druchii
15-01-2010, 22:48
I'd like to see the list the people that complain about the new 'Nid book used.

I'm willing to bet that it was majorly comprised of flying Hive Tyrands and Carnifexes.

Weird.

I've said it a thousand times, and I'll keep saying it: Abuse it, over use it, and GW will take it away.

It's their own fault, really. "Oh, gee, ANOTHER 'Nidzilla list, what's wrong here?"

Nevermind that ALL MCs are getting a price hike (naloth knows this particularly well, by now)-especially the under-pointed carnifex.

This whole business about the Pyrovore sucking as an indicator of poor internal balance? Uh, wth? How many venerable dreads do YOU see in a SW list? How about some Punishers in a guard list? Oh, Oh, Oh, what about VANGUARD vets? Beasts of Nurgle? Furies? Uhm, Flash Gitz?

See what I did? I named a "crummy" unit from each of the new codexes (I bet I forgot a few)-a few of which are "top" armies (like IG and Orks) but the presence of "not so good" units is NOT indicative of a poor codex, why do people believe this crap?

d

WinglessVT2
15-01-2010, 22:59
Scouts, vanquisher, flash gitz, 'ard boyz, warbikes, vanguard, lasboat predators in general, devastators, techmarines, servitors, blood claws, sky claws, ogryn, ratlings, vanguard.

The list of useless or weak units is very long, but it gets shorter with each new book.
The older your army is, the more useless items, rules, and units you have. This isn't only because the army is old, but because GW has realized that if you want to sell models, you have to make them good in-game.

chaos0xomega
16-01-2010, 00:11
I'd like to see the list the people that complain about the new 'Nid book used.

I'm willing to bet that it was majorly comprised of flying Hive Tyrands and Carnifexes.

Weird.

I've said it a thousand times, and I'll keep saying it: Abuse it, over use it, and GW will take it away.

It's their own fault, really. "Oh, gee, ANOTHER 'Nidzilla list, what's wrong here?"

Nevermind that ALL MCs are getting a price hike (naloth knows this particularly well, by now)-especially the under-pointed carnifex.

This whole business about the Pyrovore sucking as an indicator of poor internal balance? Uh, wth? How many venerable dreads do YOU see in a SW list? How about some Punishers in a guard list? Oh, Oh, Oh, what about VANGUARD vets? Beasts of Nurgle? Furies? Uhm, Flash Gitz?

See what I did? I named a "crummy" unit from each of the new codexes (I bet I forgot a few)-a few of which are "top" armies (like IG and Orks) but the presence of "not so good" units is NOT indicative of a poor codex, why do people believe this crap?

d

I would like to point out that you can reasonably fit more monstrous creatures than ever before.

5 tervigons is 800 points plus another 150 for minimum termants is 950 points. You have 6 FoC slots available to you and another 800 points for a standard 1750 pt tournament list to take however many more MC's you'd like (which assuming they are all 160 points each is another 5 monstrous creatures. I'd like to see the 4e nidzilla lists try to take this on.

TheShadowCow
16-01-2010, 00:16
I would like to point out that you can reasonably fit more monstrous creatures than ever before.

5 tervigons is 800 points plus another 150 for minimum termants is 950 points. You have 6 FoC slots available to you and another 800 points for a standard 1750 pt tournament list to take however many more MC's you'd like (which assuming they are all 160 points each is another 5 monstrous creatures. I'd like to see the 4e nidzilla lists try to take this on.

Amusingly enough, this version of "Nidzilla" doesn't even look like an all-monster army on the tabletop, because by Turn 2 it's filled the deployment zone with Termagants :p Now taking bets on the meme the internet will bestow upon this setup!

Toe Cutter
16-01-2010, 00:34
Oh my god this is awful, everything in the new book really sucks in close combat! There aren't any monstrous creatures in there any more and my warriors have been replaced by ratlings!!!!??!!!

WTF?

Oh hang on, I just picked up my guard codex by mistake. Erm, woops... Same author - very confusing don't you know.

A lot of nerd rage from a load of people who either haven't read anything other than other peoples rumours, badly translated leaked pdfs or just plain can't read.

Most entertaining really. And mostly completely pointless till they've actually play tested it for about six months.

To the thread author - play test it and come back to this thread in six months.

chaos0xomega
16-01-2010, 01:17
Amusingly enough, this version of "Nidzilla" doesn't even look like an all-monster army on the tabletop, because by Turn 2 it's filled the deployment zone with Termagants :p Now taking bets on the meme the internet will bestow upon this setup!

Cloverfield?

Khornagaunt
17-01-2010, 05:10
As far as the concern over the new codex being "Freak Bugs" goes, I say the freakier the better. I'm a big fluff guy, and I love me some Nids dearly, so when I finally read the new dex today and saw all of the changes and new rules, I was elated. There's SO MUCH new stuff to play and experiment with now! As a Daemon player, I'm really interested in the prospect of an all deep striking army that won't lose a general to a small rock. The reason for this elation is that according to the history, nids are super predators that are constantly evoling for new battlefields. So of course there will be significant changes in the new dex to accurately depict this accelerated evolutionary path. As Tyranids evolve, so do their tactics, and hopefully, so do the players. I have no opinion as to whether or not this is a strong or weak codex yet but by the Hive Mind am I'm ready to find out after many, many battles with all my new options.

azimaith
17-01-2010, 05:25
Just a hint, when you're looking at an all deep strike army your going to be stuck with a difficult choice. Come in piecemeal or invest in a pair of tyrants to up your chances to drop in. At the same time, those tyrants are *expensive*! So you're going to have to weigh that against the casualties you will inevitably take. I find that shooting warriors deep striking on objectives with ubergaunts outflanking (thanks to the tyrants) and bigger creatures flat out falling in spores works better than deep striking said gaunts.

Also remember that a spore pod comes with a s6 6 shot gun(Woo!) Even at BS2 you're going to probably get a couple hits, drop it flat behind a vehicle and it can get some licks in against rear armor.

synapse
17-01-2010, 10:48
hi there
You get the impression that Cruddace never actually played Tyranids and had to write a dex for an army that he did not really know...
...And people who tested the new dex for the past few weeks (including myself) state that it is more like a new army than a new dex for tyranids.
Some people were saying they are gonna keep on using the old dex.

couldnt agree more!


In what way do they feel like a new army? Some examples would help us make some comment on the issue. I myself am waiting for the codex before i pass judgement.

though its hard to pinpoint what it is, its just seems as though the feel of the army is completely ifferent. its almost as if GW wanted to make a new army (say, for the sake of argument, tau) and didnt want to make new models, so they just applied their rules to tyranids.

also there sems to be a big disregard for people with existing tyranid armies. i had a LOT of leaping warriors and spinegaunts, with the former being gone and the latter switching roles with the fleshborer (seriously, why change the stats like that? its just annoying to existing players). i doubt youd see the profile for a bolter changed from one edition to another, but the way their weapons have been changed its like theyre completely new weapons that just kept the same name

GrogDaTyrant
17-01-2010, 10:55
hi there
The army seems playable and competitive, even if it is not as strong as other 5ed dexes, but the new dex itself seems to be the worst dex i have ever read.
You get the impression that Cruddace never actually played Tyranids and had to write a dex for an army that he did not really know...
There are lot's of errors and oddities in the dex and unofficial FAQs already have about 5 pages and the dex is still not freely avialible.
And people who tested the new dex for the past few weeks (including myself) state that it is more like a new army than a new dex for tyranids.
Some people were saying they are gonna keep on using the old dex.


Seems pretty similar to the Ork Codex release. Sure, it's competitive. But it was released with a metric crap-ton of errors, oddities, and vague rules. And there are still rules that have yet to be addressed. Further, we had a similar trend when the Ork codex was released. Here was this influx of 'new ork player's' that swore up and down that the new codex is amazing and better in every way. While a majority of the old players would prefer the old one and aren't too keen on the latest changes.

Colonial Rifle
17-01-2010, 11:35
I've tried to stay out of the new codex debate as I won't be able to get my hands on the new book for a few weeks, but I've been following the rumours and this book has me worried. Note: I'm not a life long Nid player, just picked up a mixed force 2 years ago (yes, I ran Termagaunts).

People, if you just glance at a new codex and you can start to pick out the obvious duds and overpowered units, then this should scream "BAD DESIGN!" to you. Even from the rumours, the Pyrovore and Venomthrope sound like junk. Tervigon's sounded like a no-brainer reading the write up on BoLS. Seems like a lot of the basic problems of the old list (junk gaunts, over reliance on Carnifexs, overpriced mid-range bugs) haven't actually been fixed, just shuffled around abit. The pricing of units and upgrades looks all over the place.

No codex is perfect, but there is an unwritten threshhold on how many cr*p entries you can get away with before the book starts to fall down. This one is getting close!

If one example really sticks out for me, it's the fate of the spinegaunt. Why on earth should it cost more to do less? Why invalidate a reasonably popular entry like that? This decision tells it's own story.

Will reserve final judgement until I finally see the book, but am not hopeful :(

p.s On the plus side, it's not C:CSM (nothing could be that bad)!

Darkmatyr
17-01-2010, 11:38
Personally, I see a lot of whining and whinging about a perfectly good Tyranid dex. The new dex is more competitive, more versatile despite less biomorphs and plays brilliantly when compared to the old codex. Granted it could have been written better regarding some rules. Once you have played a number of games with it I'll accept your opinion.

The new dex does not play like a new army, I can't see how you 've come to that conclusion, and as I said, versatility wise, there are dozens more competitive lists available than nidzilla. The synergy options are brilliant and it's not nearly as point and click anymore regarding play style or unit choices. There are a number of staple or common place choices for sure, as any army has, but I can guarantee every list will be much more unique.

Edit: The pyrovore is definitely junk yes, but once again every army has junk choices, the venomthrope however is a excellent synergy option for your terivgons, carnifexs and other big creatures which can't get cover saves as easily in normal circumstances. A 5+ cover save may not appear to be much but neither did a 6+invun which, I'm sure everyone can thank at least a few times.
The defensive grenades is also useful in a variety of situations.

I will say this much, the fact that genestealers can't take a bio-morph for an "offensvie grenade" like ability is in my opinion, somewhat ridiculous. One of the nastiest CC units in the game and they are trumped if they charge another unit in a forest due to no access to "offensive grenades". That is my only quarrel with the new dex :)

skabradisdead
17-01-2010, 12:35
I was bored to tears with the old book and to be honest I really didn't like the way the army played as a whole.

I am VERY happy with the variety in the new book and I think we will be finding new and exciting nid builds for months to come.

They play fundamentally differently in the new book and I am a happy little vegemite because of it.

Mr.Dieth
17-01-2010, 14:16
I was bored to tears with the old book and to be honest I really didn't like the way the army played as a whole.

I am VERY happy with the variety in the new book and I think we will be finding new and exciting nid builds for months to come.

They play fundamentally differently in the new book and I am a happy little vegemite because of it.

I agree, I only play tyranids for a year and alreay they bored me.
Every game was the same. There was little tactical variation.

Now you have a whole lot of tricks up your sleeve ( pods, ds'ing trygons, lictors for rear armor tank hunting, and so on and on )
There are so many path's to explore.

But i see why everybody whine's. You have to buy a lot of new models for your army to work again. ( replacing all these spinegaunts and sniperfexes ).
But that doesn't botter me really.

Overall I'm rather happy with the codex :D

itcamefromthedeep
17-01-2010, 14:35
They play fundamentally differently in the new book and I am a happy little vegemite because of it.
No, they really don't. They can Deep Strike more, and that's about it.

They get some more effective anti-tank, but that doesn't change the style. Just replace the Carnifexes with Zoanthropes, Hive Guard, Biovores and Trygons. The list will play in a similar manner.

---

Genestealers work the same way, but this time with fewer effective builds. In 4e there was an argument over what was optimal. In 5e there isn't.

Hive Tyrants work the same way, but with fewer effective builds. In 4e you got a dozen or so "optimal" configurations of dakka Fyrant alone.

Carnifexes are taking a dive, with the dozens of common patterns there disappearing overnight.

The loss of those configurations makes the new units a wash in my view. There are a bunch of new units, but the old ones got a lot more boring.

herald of kairos
17-01-2010, 15:33
right ive tried to stay away from this but here goes anyway.
what i would like to know is why you people are getting so upset over this codex. i myself playyed nids since i first started this hobby and quite frankly i bored of them in under a year although i never gave them up.
and oddly enough i havent suffered major lapses into omg:wtf: my dex is ruined and blamed it on cruddace because the new one is definetly a step forward in both competitive builds and fluffwise.the only competitive builds in the old dexwas shock and fex neither of which i never playyed and yet i consider myself quite competitive a player and actually thought when i saw the fex that hey this things still Fing brilliant and well worth its points cost.
although they did make several unit builds weaker with this edition it could have been worse your unit could have gone the way of the squats.
so to those dissenters want there old dex fine play it if you can find someone who wants to play a dull nidzilla or shock list go right ahead hell give me the old chaos dex while were at it(by the way im also one of those players who actually liked the new chaos dex although my iw miss their basilisks) and every other old dex hell ill play you with the 3rd ed dex which was better than the 4th one anyway.
honestly guys write a list with the new dex and try it out yuoll most likely enjoy it.
anyway at that ill leave it and go back under my rock
Slan abhaile amadain

thenurgler
17-01-2010, 20:00
This happens with quite a few new codex that come out. Remember the Space Marine "OMG chapter traits are gone and scouts are BS3, the end is near and will use the old codex!!!" threads? Remember the CSM 4th ed codex "OMG they nerfed all legions and hit me with me with the nerf bat untill my face was numb and I'm going to use the old codex!!!"

If it is cool with your group you can do what you want. If you want to play with your old codex I'd be more than happy to play with the old Chaos Marine Codex. Most people will roll with the punches and move forward.


To be fair, the 'new' Chaos Marine Codex was pretty lame. Sure they stopped the ridiculous power-builds of the old dex. But they added literally nothing new that was cool or original. It was so meh.

That's why both the Space Marines and Tyranids codexes are at least, in my mind, a job well done. They added new units and changed the overall flavor by creating a wow factor which i think needs to be in all new codexes.

shin'keiro
17-01-2010, 20:53
At my local GW the opinion is the opposite to the OPs.. peeps are saying its way too overpowered.

druchii
17-01-2010, 22:22
I would like to point out that you can reasonably fit more monstrous creatures than ever before.

5 tervigons is 800 points plus another 150 for minimum termants is 950 points. You have 6 FoC slots available to you and another 800 points for a standard 1750 pt tournament list to take however many more MC's you'd like (which assuming they are all 160 points each is another 5 monstrous creatures. I'd like to see the 4e nidzilla lists try to take this on.

This is obvious and only sort of hinges on what I said.

Really most of the people who are whining about the new book ran around with dakka/flyrants, and boomfexes (scything talons, barbedstrangler) or flyrants and dakkafexes.

That's pretty lame. Those armies were boring, and pretty much auto-pilot armies. If you didn't suck you'd mop up most of your opponen'ts army, if you did, well you'd mop up his army.

I mean I feel somewhat bad for people who dumped 300 bucks on a bunch of carnifexes to jump on the nidzilla bandwagon, but then again I don't. Their own fault. And it isn't like you can't convert them into tervigons and tyrannofexes or anything (which is totally obviously what Robin wanted people to do with their box-o-fexes).

I'm pretty resistant to the idea that there are "fewer" builds for big bugs now, as you rarely saw anything outside of the flyrant, the dakka flyrant, the dakka tyrant or the walking-with-guards-rant, essentially you've got a few variants, close combat, shooty, flying not flying. Darn. You've got the same with the new tyrant, only he's pointed appropriately.

I still think the new 'fex is overpriced by about 20-30 points. But I think people are overreacting. A brood of two 'fexes, with two twinlinked Brainleech worm devourers put out 24 TL S6 shots a turn (or sub in some barbed stranglers for pie plate goodness) that force nasty morale tests. They hit with something like 18 shots every turn! Plant them in some terrain mid-field and watch those suckers grab 4+ covers, AND still have 10s9 Attacks on the charge!

d

oni
17-01-2010, 22:56
I hate what has become of the Carnifex, no more head or tail options. There's a few odds and ends that I don't care for, odd rules that just seem wonky (not to mention, universal special rules that work differently just because they're Tyranids), but overall I think it's a pretty solid codex. Venomthropes are a lot better than what I thought they'd be. Tervigons are riding that fine edge between 'broken' and just 'over powered'. IMO, Hive Guard are stupid. I really like what was done with Genestealers and Broodlords. The Swarmlord is neat, but I don't like any of the other unique 'characters'.

One thing that I'm on the fence about are the Mycetic Spores. I like the 'drop-pod' aspect, but not the 'it's a living creature with a full stat line' part. It'll be interesting to see people model it, that's for sure.

5th edition changed the dynamics of the game and with every new core rule edition there is going to be new codices that shift army composition, there's no avoiding it.

TheShadowCow
17-01-2010, 23:59
Hive Tyrants work the same way, but with fewer effective builds. In 4e you got a dozen or so "optimal" configurations of dakka Fyrant alone.

There were?! Could you list... four? Maybe five? Just out of interest :p

This sounds suspiciously like rose-tinted goggles to me.


Similarly with the Carnifexes, let's be honest, there were about four patterns that saw regular use; Twin Devourer, Venom Cannon/Barbed Strangler, Twin-Talons (rare) and Barbed Strangler/Talons (by the end of the 4th Ed book this was the only thing we saw in a lot of lists). Now I'm not disputing that the Carnifex has lost a lot of options, but come on - how many of those were used? Frequently and seriously? Exactly.


Now of course, there were plenty of other options that I am certain a lot of players tried out. They just tended to get left out of the average "competative Nidzilla list". If it's modelling opportunities you're after, or variety in what you can field... yes the Carnifexes are slightly less variable. But that's okay, you've gained Tervigons, Harpies, Tyrannofexes and Trygons to play with - so not only do you have more options over-all than before, but you can put them into work in more forms than just a Carnifex.

itcamefromthedeep
18-01-2010, 00:07
Really most of the people who are whining about the new book ran around with dakka/flyrants, and boomfexes (scything talons, barbedstrangler) or flyrants and dakkafexes.
BS. Out of the hundreds of games I've played with my Tyranids, I've tried Nidzilla on 4 occasions. It isn't as powerful as a more balanced list that brings 5 or 6 Montrous Creatures. If you played against boring players who netlisted years ago (before people figured out that Nidzilla isn't the best way to go) and haven't experimented since, then that's a failing of your local gaming group.


I mean I feel somewhat bad for people who dumped 300 bucks on a bunch of carnifexes to jump on the nidzilla bandwagon, but then again I don't. Their own fault.
What about people who didn't jump on the Nidzilla bandwagon? What about all those Crusher Carnifexes people bought for the fun of it? They took a bigger hit than the Devilfexes.

Now, that "Their own fault." line has me confused. Are you saying that it is a fault of a player to want to make their army more effective? Is that some kind of moral failing that needs to be corrected by punishing players? I'd like to know if that's really how you think.


I'm pretty resistant to the idea that there are "fewer" builds for big bugs now, as you rarely saw anything outside of the flyrant, the dakka flyrant, the dakka tyrant or the walking-with-guards-rant, essentially you've got a few variants, close combat, shooty, flying not flying. Darn. You've got the same with the new tyrant, only he's pointed appropriately.
You want to tell me what I've seen? Go to the Warpshadow galleries and see what people put on the table, then come back and tell me that Crusher Carnifexes, Ninjafexes and close combat walking Tyrants don't exist. See for yourself if anyone ever bought Raveners. See for yourself if anyone played with Hormagaunts. You must play with boring people man, because a lot of the upgrades for a Carnifex that are considered sub-optimal in the 4e codex are just barely so. If your friends could be convinced to field Termagants rather than Spinegaunts once in a while then they could be convinced to bring Implant Attack on a Carnifex for those times when it fought Daemons.

Don't tell people what their gaming group sees. Don't assume that every gaming group is as lame as yours sounds (judging by your reports).

As it turns out, people tried nearly everything. Now, "nearly everything" is a whole lot less. There a great number of pictures and battle reports that include Canrifexes outside the box you've been subjected to. If you thought that Sniperfexes, Boomfexes and Devilfexes were the only Carnifexes to see play in the last few years then you are clearly and demonstrably wrong.

Let's have no more of that myth, shall we.

Jorgandr
18-01-2010, 00:19
(not to mention, universal special rules that work differently just because they're Tyranids
What is that for a rule (or rules)? I have not noticed anything like that, as of today.

druchii
18-01-2010, 04:52
BS. Out of the hundreds of games I've played with my Tyranids, I've tried Nidzilla on 4 occasions. It isn't as powerful as a more balanced list that brings 5 or 6 Montrous Creatures. If you played against boring players who netlisted years ago (before people figured out that Nidzilla isn't the best way to go) and haven't experimented since, then that's a failing of your local gaming group.


What about people who didn't jump on the Nidzilla bandwagon? What about all those Crusher Carnifexes people bought for the fun of it? They took a bigger hit than the Devilfexes.

Now, that "Their own fault." line has me confused. Are you saying that it is a fault of a player to want to make their army more effective? Is that some kind of moral failing that needs to be corrected by punishing players? I'd like to know if that's really how you think.


You want to tell me what I've seen? Go to the Warpshadow galleries and see what people put on the table, then come back and tell me that Crusher Carnifexes, Ninjafexes and close combat walking Tyrants don't exist. See for yourself if anyone ever bought Raveners. See for yourself if anyone played with Hormagaunts. You must play with boring people man, because a lot of the upgrades for a Carnifex that are considered sub-optimal in the 4e codex are just barely so. If your friends could be convinced to field Termagants rather than Spinegaunts once in a while then they could be convinced to bring Implant Attack on a Carnifex for those times when it fought Daemons.

Don't tell people what their gaming group sees. Don't assume that every gaming group is as lame as yours sounds (judging by your reports).

As it turns out, people tried nearly everything. Now, "nearly everything" is a whole lot less. There a great number of pictures and battle reports that include Canrifexes outside the box you've been subjected to. If you thought that Sniperfexes, Boomfexes and Devilfexes were the only Carnifexes to see play in the last few years then you are clearly and demonstrably wrong.

Let's have no more of that myth, shall we.

I think anecdotal evidence is dangerous.

Obviously you're making my views more extreme than they really are to push your point, that's fine, because you really want to sell your argument. I understand. But please don't assume you know anything about me or my gaming group or anything like that, because you don't.

Am I saying "there aren't any other builds but these!" ? That's pretty clearly false. Am I saying those builds are the ones that people have "experimented with" and come back to, time and time again for efficiency and competitive lists? Absolutely. My time on the local and close-state tournament scene have shown me just that. Over the past four years those are the sorts of lists that have dominated the tournament scene with the 'nid playes.

Sure you can argue that the tournament scene is a poor place to look for examples of "normal" lists, but if you want to look for economical, competitive builds, there's nowhere else to look! That's empirical evidence (as opposed to anecdotal, or theoretical evidence as you've provided) at its best.

Essentially: Neat, people didn't jump on the bandwagon. That doesn't mean squat. If anything, those people who brought "crusher fexes for fun" will CONTINUE to do so, because they understood in the first place that they weren't bringing the most economical or competitive build possible (something that I completely understand, heck, I do the same thing with my demons!) so the change in rules won't impact them as much, because their general ethos hasn't changed!

And it IS peopes' fault if they load up on the same one or two builds of any sort of unit. Things change. Oops. Do I understand that my Deathwing terminator squads MIGHT change in future codexes? Invalidating my Lightning claw, powerfist-assualt cannon, Thunder Hammer, Chainfist-stormbolter, sergeant squads? Yeap. But that's something I knew going into making my list. If you're suggesting GW should cater to these people then you're wrong.

The fact that you're even arguing that there are better lists than a tuned 'Nidzilla list leades me to believe that your group needs adjusting, not mine.

d

Rirekon
18-01-2010, 09:38
Essentially: Neat, people didn't jump on the bandwagon. That doesn't mean squat. If anything, those people who brought "crusher fexes for fun" will CONTINUE to do so, because they understood in the first place that they weren't bringing the most economical or competitive build possible (something that I completely understand, heck, I do the same thing with my demons!) so the change in rules won't impact them as much, because their general ethos hasn't changed!

Actually if you run the numbers the crusher fex is more effective ;)

Not picking on you specifically, I just thought it was an interesting observation

chaos0xomega
18-01-2010, 15:58
Yeah it gets you a whole extra .24 wounds per turn. For the cost, it's not worth it.

Rirekon
18-01-2010, 16:47
Yeah it gets you a whole extra .24 wounds per turn. For the cost, it's not worth it.

.4 actually (assuming 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound) and when you work out the per point cost it comes out fractionally ahead.
Crushing Claws are actually worth considering this edition

chaos0xomega
18-01-2010, 16:53
Are you certain? Are you including rerolls to hit for scything talons and rerolling ones in your crushing claws?

Also, remember that with the crushing claws you have no chance of avoiding Powerfists/other I1 power weapon attacks.

itcamefromthedeep
18-01-2010, 17:48
Are you certain? Are you including rerolls to hit for scything talons and rerolling ones in your crushing claws?
They're talking about 4e there. Or at least they should be talking about 4th, because that's what Druchii and I are on about.


I think anecdotal evidence is dangerous.
Yes, like your tournament games.

That's why I backed up my position on how common "non-standard" Carnifexes are by pointing out a large repository of the models, the Warpshadow galleries. There are a lot of Sniperfexes and Devilfexes in there, but by no means are they all so armed, nor do they always have the same upgrades. There are a lot of Carnifexes in those galleries, which makes me htink that it's not such a bad cross-section.


Am I saying "there aren't any other builds but these!" ? That's pretty clearly false. Am I saying those builds are the ones that people have "experimented with" and come back to, time and time again for efficiency and competitive lists? Absolutely. My time on the local and close-state tournament scene have shown me just that. Over the past four years those are the sorts of lists that have dominated the tournament scene with the 'nid playes.
The tournament scene doesn't matter all that much. Most players don't go to those tournaments.

You said:

I'm pretty resistant to the idea that there are "fewer" builds for big bugs now, as you rarely saw anything outside of the flyrant, the dakka flyrant, the dakka tyrant or the walking-with-guards-rant, essentially you've got a few variants, close combat, shooty, flying not flying.
And you didn't put any conditionals on it.

Even among the Tyrants you mentioned, there's a lot of variation within those categories. Some people thought that a Flyrant should have talons while other thought that devourers were necessary. Some people went for the enhanced Weapon Skill. Others didn't. The majority went with Implant Attack, but not all. All you can do is say that Flyrants are common. You see more variation in Flyrants than I've seen in Land Raiders.

If Carnifex is common enough to get a name for the variant, then it's not rarely seen. There are more of those than the Sniperfex, Boomfex and Devilfex. Those models were occasionally upgraded to have any combination of Extended Carapace, Reinforced Chitin and Bonded Exoskeleton. Some very good players thought that one or more of those were worth bringing. Others disagreed. I've seen most of those combinations.

There are a number of combinations of Genestealer depending on whether the player thought that they should go with Flesh Hooks or Feeder Tendrils. Some players thought it necessary to bring extended carapace, while others went with a cheaper variant. Some went for talons, many didn't. I don't care what anecdotal evidence you have for which of those variants is optimal, because I've seen enough of each to say that there was no generally accepted standard Genestealer loadout.

---

Now, Nidzilla. Strictly speaking, Nidzilla brings 8 TMCs and minimum Ripper bases to fill Troops. Nidzilla died with 5e. Now players bring Gaunts and Genestealers.

If you are bringing 6 Carnifexes, then you're not bringing enough synapse to keep you Gaunts around. The Flyrant has better things to do than babysit Gaunts, which leaves exactly one synapse creature to cover all the Gaunts in your army. That's nuts, even if you're just going to bring a pair of WoN Spinegaunt broods. You don't want to be stuck relying entirely on Genestealers to hold objectives for you, so you'll want to replace at least one of those Carnifexes with either Warriors or Zoanthropes. Many players dropped another in favor of more Genestealers. So, Tyranid lists don't bring the 6 Carnifexes you see in a Nidzilla list. They bring 5 or 4. Occasionally they don't even bring that many, depending on the points level of the tournament. Loosely-defined Nidzilla is 8 TMCs, and that's long gone form the competitive environment.

de Selby
18-01-2010, 19:53
I would tend to agree with the OP that the new nids don't seem to have much to do with the old nids. It does seem to have been designed without regard for existing players (common, although SM, IG and SW books all seemd to handle them better) or even the existing range (rather more unexpected). I'm not too worried because I was planning to buy a buch of new nids anyway, and I already have lots of hormagaunts.



When the Chaos Codex was released, there was a wave of discontent, and dozens of threads popped up with people vehemently claiming they would never use the new Codex. I've never encountered one of these people, nor met someone who has. I suspect most of them eventually capitulated and switched to the new codex, with a few moving to a new army.

I stopped collecting chaos after the new codex (didn't buy it). I'm in nowhere near the same mindset regarding the new nids. At least none of my favourite units got moved to a different book.

owen matthew
18-01-2010, 20:20
OP, I do think this book needs to be approached as a new army, and not as an updated one. More change than 3rd to 4th, and more drastic change. Almost look at it as a truer paradigm shift than an updated codex. The people who will earn much success with this book will be new players, the rare few open-minded ones, and the tourney-killers/power-gamers who will make it happen with almost any book anyway.
I very truely do not see how this book is more powerfull then its predecessor. Different, sure, but not more powerfull.

I break out in hives everytime I read someone say someting about how this new book is more dimentional than the last one, or that 4th was less dimentional. Just becaust the favored build was one thing, did not mean it HAD to be played that way. Plenty of other things worked. Give it time, this new book will have only one or two competative builds, and those are the one or two everyone will complain about, beginning in a couple months, and ending when their next book comes out. Its just like that for every army.

I think I will die the next time I read pure horde is finally back as a serious build. I dare you to play pure horde with this book. Have a good time sweeping models off the board. I really see that as about as good as it used to be. You just need some of the bigger stuff to get alot of the jobs done, and the bigger stuff is SUPER-EXPENSIVE, while much of the little stuff is not much cheaper than 4th.

I do think that Warriors are the big positive change. No ID protection hurts, but 3 wounds is OK. Only problem is that they are so expensive, and get more signifigantly expensive for their best builds.

Also looking great are: Mycetic Spores, Mawlock, Trygon, Hive Guard. I expect to see so many armies with 9 Hive Guards that it will quickly become THE BUILD. DS on the above units is great. Its nice to see a xenos army get a space marine rule once in awhile, instead of the SMs constantly raping out the good rules from other books (alla teleporting Necron Cloak, for instance)

Now just sit back, relax, and wait to see what the next thing will be.