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The Base
14-01-2010, 19:43
The conventional wisdom is that these guys are boarder line useless.

However I was thinking there is no other heavy weapons unit in the game as mobile as them.

I was thinking of using them along these lines. Take a unit of say 8 of them, 4 dark lances. Use their mobility to put them behind enemy tanks (not many tanks can put a large amount of anti infantry firepower backwards so they are more or less safe here). If you are worried about the tank turning you could sandwich it between say a warrior squad with dark lances or a raider or something.

Bottom line is on the next turn you are really likely to get dark lance hits on the rear armor. So str vs av10 or 11 in most cases. I am still not 100% convinced they are worth the point cost, but they definitely open up new tactics.

Cuchulain84
14-01-2010, 19:57
Dark Lances don't have a problem punching through armour from any side thanks the lance rule (treats all armour over 12 as 12)

The likely hood of planting your extrememly expensive Scourge Unit behind enemy lines will be that they will be decimated before they even have a chance to fire a single volley.

The only time I would even consider taking Scourges is with 4 Splinter Cannons. And even then they would be pointless.

edit:
"However I was thinking there is no other heavy weapons unit in the game as mobile as them."

Raider Squads, Ravagers are more mobile and infinitely more useful.

The Base
14-01-2010, 20:06
Dark Lances don't have a problem punching through armour from any side thanks the lance rule (treats all armour over 12 as 12)

So the goal should be to hit anything below 12 if possible.

Their is also the mental advantage as they will probably attract less attention than a ravager.

CraftworldsRus
14-01-2010, 20:16
Nah, they will attract just enough attention to kill them. Better just taking 10 man warrior squads with 2 lances.

Cuchulain84
14-01-2010, 20:28
So the goal should be to hit anything below 12 if possible.

Their is also the mental advantage as they will probably attract less attention than a ravager.

Well obviously hitting armour 10 is better than hitting armour 12 but sniping 12 armour from 48" range and in cover is alot safer and more efficient than sending expensive units on an anti-tank suicide mission.

I think deep striking them behind a tank will attract enough attention to get them killed (which really isn't that hard with a 5+ armour save)

Even if by some miracle they succeed an 8 man unit costing a little under 300 points will have destroyed a 100-200pt tank before being decimated. Still not making back their points back by far.

It seems like you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. If theres one thing Dark Eldar don't need help with it's tank busting.

jsullivanlaw
14-01-2010, 21:39
The conventional wisdom is that these guys are boarder line useless.

However I was thinking there is no other heavy weapons unit in the game as mobile as them.

I was thinking of using them along these lines. Take a unit of say 8 of them, 4 dark lances. Use their mobility to put them behind enemy tanks (not many tanks can put a large amount of anti infantry firepower backwards so they are more or less safe here). If you are worried about the tank turning you could sandwich it between say a warrior squad with dark lances or a raider or something.

Bottom line is on the next turn you are really likely to get dark lance hits on the rear armor. So str vs av10 or 11 in most cases. I am still not 100% convinced they are worth the point cost, but they definitely open up new tactics.

This won't work. There will not be a next turn for the scourges. They really are totally useless with dark lances. Splinter cannons can make use of mobility...but still subpar to most other units in the codex. And you lose a ravager slot! Even if they could fly and shoot dark lances the ravager would still be better.

Treadhead_1st
14-01-2010, 23:19
I think the best way to use Scourges is with Splinter cannons.

Use their speed to get them into a good position once you've seen the enemy deployment. Then walk into cover. Yes, this is 2 turns of not firing.

But then you have a great fire-lane where the enemy infantry is advancing and can launch a few volleys, before falling back (to avoid combat) and fire another volley or two, depending on game length.

I don't think they're a good unit, but what is in such an old, outdated codex running on 3rd Ed. points costs? But I don't think they're totally unusable, and can have a place in niche lists.

the1stpip
14-01-2010, 23:20
Indeed, while scourges are not terrible, they compete with Ravagers, which are far superior.

solkan
14-01-2010, 23:21
Imagine taking a Space Marine devastator squad, buying it four multi-meltas, and then having them arrive in a drop pod near the tank they want to shoot next turn. Does that make sense?

For both units, the devastators and the scourges, they'll arrive late because they're arriving from reserves. They can't fire the turn in which they arrive, and they can't fire and move. And on top of the problems which the devastator squad would have, scourges still pay double the cost of a warrior squad for their heavy weapons.

IF scourges had relentless, it MIGHT be worth paying more than double the normal price for dark lances because then they'd actually be fragile but mobile anti-tank. Otherwise, you may as well pay the same price for two Warrior squads so they move slightly slower and have twice the wounds for the price.

Chucklemoney
14-01-2010, 23:23
Have to agree with the majority here and say only somewhat useful with 4 splinter cannons when you know you are facing hordes AND, like me, you don't actually own 3 ravagers.

Mannimarco
14-01-2010, 23:25
Ive had the pleasure of playing against dark eldar a few times in the past and can say that ive had my ass handed to me more often than not and not one of these armies contained any scourges

the fact the compete with the ravager is a definite drawback as the ravager is far superior to them (play triple ravager and lose your friends)

TheWarSmith
15-01-2010, 03:44
Scourges are pure worthless. Warrior/raider squads are so good, that there's no point to taking scourges who gain mobility for double the point cost of a normal warrior.

Now if they had a special rule where they could move and fire their dark lances, then maybe it'd be a consideration. Once you move them to the angle you want to shoot the tank from, all the enemy has to do is launch normal bolter fire into them. Hell, even a volley of lasguns can do them in.

Thud
15-01-2010, 03:47
Scourges are pure worthless. Warrior/raider squads are so good, that there's no point to taking scourges who gain mobility for double the point cost of a normal warrior.

Now if they had a special rule where they could move and fire their dark lances, then maybe it'd be a consideration. Once you move them to the angle you want to shoot the tank from, all the enemy has to do is launch normal bolter fire into them. Hell, even a volley of lasguns can do them in.

And that's all there is, sadly. I don't see any point in taking Scourges. Ever.

AFnord
15-01-2010, 06:03
Scourges are not completely worthless, as they can put their splinter cannons to good use. But they are not a "face all" type of unit, which is a real shame, as they are rather cool.

Dranthar
15-01-2010, 06:18
The problem with scourges is that a pair of Warrior squads can achieve exactly the same heavy weapon output for cheaper and with more bodies on the table. Even if you're out of troops slots and still want more heavy weapons, Ravagers are a far better choice.

So the only time I'd consider scourges over Warriors/Ravagers is if I was intentionally going for some kind of theme. Something like an all infantry DE army where I've already filled out my HQ and Troops slots with heavy weapons, or an all-deep striking army where there'll be so many targets coming down that the scourges should remain safe for a turn or two.

If you forgot about the heavy weapons they might be good with a sybarite carrying a terrorfex? Although 101 points for a deep-striking terrorfex is pretty steep, and a haemonculus could do the same for cheaper (55), and without wasting a Heavy slot.

starlight
15-01-2010, 06:30
The only reason I have them is for use as Death Jesters in my Harlequin-themed DEWC...and even then I'd rather use the three Wraithlord *counts as* Ravagers. :)

Dranthar
15-01-2010, 06:33
and even then I'd rather use the three Wraithlord *counts as* Ravagers. :)

Ooh...I'd be very interested in these WraithlordRavagers. How did you convert them? Do you have pics?

Bloodknight
15-01-2010, 10:08
Scourges have never been good, not even when the codex was new. They always suffered from the design team's ridiculous pricing for mobility in 3rd edition (twice the points of the same standard trooper for a jump pack equipped model. Who would take assault marines at 30 points? Yep...and bikes were even worse, often up to 3 times the basic cost)in addition to the blown up cost for their heavy weapons.

They're no match for Ravagers. The cost of a 10 man scourge unit (they're the only DE unit that I'd recommend bullet shield models for) with 4 lances buys two Ravagers with 6 Lances, 2 Night Shields and 10 points change. And they can move and shoot.

They're also no match for Warriors. You get two sniper squads - which can score - for the points with double the bodies and enough spare change for a Raider somewhere. Again, more bodies plus a vehicle and 5 lances instead of 4 just beats moving and getting killed before shooting. ;)

Equipped with splinter cannons they're still only the equivalent of 8 rapid firing Marines. They'll kill 5 Orks in the open on average and beware of the echo in that case...