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Rydmend
21-01-2010, 01:17
The new Tyranids do not like vindicators one bit. I saw a couple vindicators ID two harpies, a tyranid prime, and 3 warriors in one round of shooting.

Over 500 points gone in two large blasts. Considering it was a 1500 point game that is a pretty substantial blow; the tyranid player seemed pretty upset.

He said he didn't realize that harpies were t5 until today, I think he knows now.

After reading the unit entry I thought maybe they should have made these guys T6 and dropped them to 3 wounds (since they are supposed to be more fragile according to the new book)

ehlijen
21-01-2010, 01:22
Killing things dead is the point of bigs guns like the Demolisher cannon. If there was a vindicator on the field and he still bunched up that many T5- models out of cover for it, that's not the SM player's fault.

Providence
21-01-2010, 01:31
Even though the vindicator is scary for Tyranids, they must also remember that the Vindicator can only shoot 24" has 11 side armour and 10 rear armour, if the Tyranids can get a hit on the side armour or get in combat the Vindicator is toast.

Warpcrafter
21-01-2010, 01:33
I've only played against the new nids once, and both of my Vindicators got blown apart by a single Tyrannofex. And they didn't kill it back despite hammering it for three rounds.

Rydmend
21-01-2010, 01:35
I've only played against the new nids once, and both of my Vindicators got blown apart by a single Tyrannofex. And they didn't kill it back despite hammering it for three rounds.

Hah, that's the nature of the game I guess.

I have yet to see the tyrannofex in action.

Providence
21-01-2010, 01:38
But the Vindicators aren't meant for shooting the big bugs (at least not until all the little bugs are gone) the big bugs are too tough for Vindicators, better to try using missile launchers and the like against them, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound and no saves for the big bugs.

Geep
21-01-2010, 01:52
and no saves for the big bugs
Except for the Tyrannofex :)

Is there a reason the 'nid player bunched up so many instantly killable expensive models?

Vepr
21-01-2010, 01:55
Was the SM player tailoring his list for nids? I don't think I have ever seen two vindicators on the field at once even in 2000 point games.

Koryphaus
21-01-2010, 01:57
I often used to see them, and I play 1750 more than anything. It all depends on who you know and where you play I guess.

Providence
21-01-2010, 01:58
WOW didn't know that the Tyrannofex had a 2+ Save, might have to start pulling out the Plasma Guns and Lascannons again lol.

Pooky
21-01-2010, 02:05
Was the SM player tailoring his list for nids? I don't think I have ever seen two vindicators on the field at once even in 2000 point games.

I used to have 2 in my 1500 army and they were great! (So long as the enemy didn't manage to close the gap!) The army was roughly:

Chaplain + Jump Pack
10 Assault Marines
3 x 10 Space Marines with Rhino
2 Vindicators

As has been said before, Vindicators look scary but if you can close that gap then they are helpless. My friend who plays Orks was s*** scared of them so he would close the gap ASAP. Once the tanks are assaulted it's game over for them.

And I also agree with ehlijen, if they bug player placed his models that close together and that close to a vindicator then it's his own fault.

Vepr
21-01-2010, 02:17
If you play a lot of orks I could see it but where I play you just don't see more than one usually because of IG.

Rydmend
21-01-2010, 02:37
Except for the Tyrannofex :)

Is there a reason the 'nid player bunched up so many instantly killable expensive models?

The first vindicator shot the the 3 warriors and the prime (they were in the same unit), they were in cover so statistically he should have saved 2 but he failed all 4 saves.

The second vind shot at the two harpies and they were behind the same set of ruins, the template deviated in between the two harpies as to touch the edge of each base with each side of the template.

Bolter Bait
21-01-2010, 02:39
Vindicators? We hates them. They kill the preeeeeecious!

Actually, Vindicators I don't mind so much, it's the damn krak missiles taking Warriors out that irritates the hell out of me. And Deffkopters. Especially the Deffkopters! Blasted things can move to any angle to deny cover saves - they just eat my Warriors.

TheSanityAssassin
21-01-2010, 02:43
It hurts me much more with my Chaos Terminator horde....I lost close to 800 pts of Terminators that way. (I crossed my fingers that with 3 squads deepstriking with comb-meltas and plasmas I could at least shake them. Dice said no....)

Speak of multi-vindicators, my buddy's 'Ard Boyz involved 3 of them, with 6 rhinos full of 'Zerkers and a Land Raider full of Khorne Terminators. Throw in some Lash Princes and it was damn well unpleasant. Finished 3rd I believe in our large local, but was moving on the day of regionals and never went.

LKHERO
21-01-2010, 03:07
Was the SM player tailoring his list for nids? I don't think I have ever seen two vindicators on the field at once even in 2000 point games.

Have you played this game? lol.

Vindicators are one of the most popular tanks in the SM arsenal since.. I don't know.. FOREVER?

Gutlord Grom
21-01-2010, 03:18
Have you played this game? lol.

Vindicators are one of the most popular tanks in the SM arsenal since.. I don't know.. FOREVER? Well, more so with the advancement of mech armies. They make a nice unit to "buff" Rhino based Marines, alongside the Land Raider.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 03:41
The new Tyranids do not like vindicators one bit. I saw a couple vindicators ID two harpies, a tyranid prime, and 3 warriors in one round of shooting.

Over 500 points gone in two large blasts. Considering it was a 1500 point game that is a pretty substantial blow; the tyranid player seemed pretty upset.

He said he didn't realize that harpies were t5 until today, I think he knows now.

After reading the unit entry I thought maybe they should have made these guys T6 and dropped them to 3 wounds (since they are supposed to be more fragile according to the new book)

They should have been made toughness 5 base. Strength 10 weapons aren't so common as strength 8.

Getting a prime, two harpies, and three warriors blasted by one vindicator requires very, very close proximity, and while proximity is more common for nids than other races that is still excessively close.

Even with two its still surprising. Harpies are supposed to be pretty big.

Yes a lot of the new toughness values are retarded though.

Its one of the reasons I won't ever use tyranid warriors if I can't afford to lose them en mass.

Rydmend
21-01-2010, 03:44
They should have been made toughness 5 base. Strength 10 weapons aren't so common as strength 8.

Getting a prime, two harpies, and three warriors blasted by one vindicator requires very, very close proximity, and while proximity is more common for nids than other races that is still excessively close.

Yes a lot of the new toughness values are retarded though.

It was 2 vindicator blasts and they are toughness 5 base.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 03:44
Warriors are toughness 4 base, harpies are toughness 5. Warriors should be toughness 5, nothing monstrous should be under six.

ehlijen
21-01-2010, 04:28
And all tanks should be at least front armour 14? Wishlisting is fun, but they were right with these values.

T5 on warriors would have made them too resilient to small arms fire, which is meant to be a threat to them. Sure, demolishers ID them now (as they do many other things as well), but if you make them T5 you're just going to make people take even more S10 weapons as you won't leave them many other choices. By giving them extra wounds instead, the opponent won't be forced to take S10 stuff because he knows he might actually get anywhere with infantry fire.

As for Harpies, Given that almost every other FO slot can already be filled with a T6 monstrous creature (some of them just as or nearly as fast) I don't think we needed another 3 slots for more of that. If you prefer T6, there's at least 6 creatures to pick instead of the harpy.

Vepr
21-01-2010, 04:31
Have you played this game? lol.

Vindicators are one of the most popular tanks in the SM arsenal since.. I don't know.. FOREVER?

Yes I see them all the time but not usually two.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 04:50
And all tanks should be at least front armour 14? Wishlisting is fun, but they were right with these values.

T5 on warriors would have made them too resilient to small arms fire, which is meant to be a threat to them.

No it wouldn't adding an extra wound made them resilient to small arms fire, 30% more resilient. Toughness 5, 2 wounds is 16% more resilient to small arms fire but much more resilient to instant death.



Sure, demolishers ID them now (as they do many other things as well), but if you make them T5 you're just going to make people take even more S10 weapons as you won't leave them many other choices. By giving them extra wounds instead, the opponent won't be forced to take S10 stuff because he knows he might actually get anywhere with infantry fire.

No one is forced to take anything. Toughness 5 with two wounds is far from unkillable.



As for Harpies, Given that almost every other FO slot can already be filled with a T6 monstrous creature (some of them just as or nearly as fast) I don't think we needed another 3 slots for more of that. If you prefer T6, there's at least 6 creatures to pick instead of the harpy.
The harpy costs far too much to not be toughness 6, especially with its 4+ save.

Balragore
21-01-2010, 05:36
Replies #2 & #3 cover everything nicely.

ehlijen
21-01-2010, 05:51
No it wouldn't adding an extra wound made them resilient to small arms fire, 30% more resilient. Toughness 5, 2 wounds is 16% more resilient to small arms fire but much more resilient to instant death.


No one is forced to take anything. Toughness 5 with two wounds is far from unkillable.


The harpy costs far too much to not be toughness 6, especially with its 4+ save.

Why should the be resilient to instant death? They are a basic troops choice now, and those big guns that can ID them cost appropriately.

T5 is hard enough to wound that people will feel forced back into min maxing special and heavy weapons. Not everyone gets pulse rifles on their basic troops choice.

LKHERO
21-01-2010, 05:54
Except for the Tyrannofex :)

Is there a reason the 'nid player bunched up so many instantly killable expensive models?

How exactly does a Tyrannofex save from a Demolisher? I'm assuming you mean cover via 50% of the MC's model.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 06:01
Why should the be resilient to instant death? They are a basic troops choice now, and those big guns that can ID them cost appropriately.

T5 is hard enough to wound that people will feel forced back into min maxing special and heavy weapons. Not everyone gets pulse rifles on their basic troops choice.
They should be resilient to instant death because they are a vital lynchpin in a functional tyranid army, being a key unit and being vulnerable to instant death without any invulnerable save, especially when said instant death occurs from powerfists in close combat on a close combat oriented unit is important.

Why in the world wouldn't a twelve foot tall chitinous beast require heavy weapons to down, space marines do. I don't see how having them vulnerable to instant death *doesn't* make people feel forced into taking krak missile launchers, melta guns, battle cannons, ect, compared to bolters and the like as they're *way more resilient to those weapons with three wounds than they are with toughness 5!*

As for costed appropriately tyranid warriors start out at minimum 90 points a squad that would have to slow up the board for three-four turns while a LR battle tank costs 50 points more and is blasting said warriors from six feet away. Even if you only hit with twice out of the four turns its going to take for them to get to grips you've still killed some 180 most likely.

itcamefromthedeep
21-01-2010, 06:02
Was the SM player tailoring his list for nids? I don't think I have ever seen two vindicators on the field at once even in 2000 point games.
I often bring three. What can I say, I like the really big guns.


As for Harpies, Given that almost every other FO slot can already be filled with a T6 monstrous creature (some of them just as or nearly as fast) I don't think we needed another 3 slots for more of that. If you prefer T6, there's at least 6 creatures to pick instead of the harpy.
Try this:

As for Hellhounds, given that almost every other FO slot can already be filled with a front armor 12 vehicle (some of them just as or nearly as fast) I don't think we needed another 3 slots for more of that. If you prefer armor 12, there's at least 6 vehicles to pick instead of the Hellhound.

You see, nearly everyone can spam really, really tough units. Units that are so hard that anti-infantry fire just bounces off. The Harpy right now takes as much bolter fire to kill as 4 Tactical Marines. That's not a durable unit. For it's price, I won't touch the Harpy with a 10-foot pole. That T5 is a lot to make up for, and it doesn't have anywhere near the killiness I would need from a model like that.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 06:06
Not to mention the harpy is something like 70-80 points overcosted.

Xyrex
21-01-2010, 06:18
I thought the nids were meant to be a swarm army, not an army of giant T6 monsters that are like 50 points undercost. I mean for something that is S9 and has like 10 attacks, 120 points is WAY too cheap in my opinion. And hive tyrants, their like 3x more dangerouse that SM captains, even when = points.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 06:38
Yeah, s9 with 8 attacks that has to spend 4 turns walking at you before it can use any of those 10 attacks. You seem to be missing the point that carnifex spent how many turns plodding up under your armies fire that gets to shoot from turn 1 to turn 5-7. That doesn't even include the characters that can hide in units to absorb shooting and get cover saves from any models in front of them. They don't even compare to predators and vindicators at 120 points with a crushing claws set up.

Tyrants and captains aren't even comparable as the cheapest tyrant. That captain has a myriad of ways to get into combat and can get cover from anything. That captain can put himself behind 10 ablative wounds.

When you lose your captain you don't lose a flank of your army as the flee and your models don't become leadership 5.

There's a reason why the most popular hive tyrants and carnifex were entirely shooting based.

Egaeus
21-01-2010, 06:49
I thought the nids were meant to be a swarm army, not an army of giant T6 monsters that are like 50 points undercost. I mean for something that is S9 and has like 10 attacks, 120 points is WAY too cheap in my opinion. And hive tyrants, their like 3x more dangerouse that SM captains, even when = points.

I'm not sure if this was meant as sarcasm...I am assuming so since, to my knowledge, no such creature exists as all the Tyranid Monstrous Creatures start at 160 points base and just get more expensive from there...

Unless you're talking about the old book which is something of a moot point since they have a new Codex. Granted, you might mention that some things were undercosted, but just as much was overcosted which is why 'Nidzilla even existed. And in typical GW fashion instead of properly tweaking units they decide to take [nerf] sledgehammers to them.

The problem is the desginers haven't made the swarm approach particularly viable...because the Tyranids being a specialist army requires that you take specfic units to deal with different types of threats, unlike other armies where you can just drop a lascannon or a meltagun into every squad "just in case". To deal with armour you have to have something other than "swarm" units.

MarkC
21-01-2010, 08:10
Was the SM player tailoring his list for nids? I don't think I have ever seen two vindicators on the field at once even in 2000 point games.

A local player has been known to use a 3 Vindicator list in 1250 pts tournaments.

Regards

Mark C

azimaith
21-01-2010, 08:11
The biggest problem with said swarm lists is they always need big guys. Since swarms are unable to properly shield said big creatures they typically require more big guys to replace those dead ones.

The problem trickles down from the top to the very lowliest creatures something like this in the new list.

Hive Tyrant: You want one for synapse that's durable and fast as well as a versatile counter to enemy tanks and enemy big nasty critters that would stomp your smaller guys to gooey paste. This makes them expensive, too expensive in fact, to contemplate on swarm lists below 2000 points which leaves us with:

The Alpha with no wings and no fast way to get into combat outside of rolling for reserves its hardly optimal for a fast moving swarm. You either can't start on the table meaning you can't drive the swarm onwards or you have to walk which slows down the swarm.

Tervigons are monstrous which leads to the same issue as before of cost and slow speed.

The parasite is not monstrous but costs as much, one again, problematic.

With such a lack of choices in the HQ department for fast moving synapse that you can use in medium point games were stuck with shrikes, who can keep up.
Unfortunately medium sized tyranids are still overcosted compared to their survivability so you end up paying just as much for them as you would to support the same swarm.

This leads us down to small units, since the big minder units require so many points we can't have as many small units as we need more big minder units to prevent them gaunts from falling apart when the big ones get singled out and gunned down.

So what do we do? We get more big units and get less small guys and try our best to keep a few medium guys in there but eventually we realize we could have just spent all the points on small guys on other units that are tougher outside of needing said units for scoring.

If you want to make swarm style armies viable you need to:
1: Have reasonably priced minder units that can keep pace. There are none, you either pay some 160 points minimum for something that can keep up or you run a very slow swarm.

2: Modify smaller units to support larger units just as larger units support smaller ones. If we go in only one direction with the support we may as well hack the parasitic unit off and spend the points elsewhere. If venomthropes weren't so overpriced and crappy we could claim we had some of this but we frankly don't. Without gaunts shielding larger synapse creatures we may as well forget them outside of objectives.

3: Spread out anti-tank as well as soft anti-tank and hard anti-tank.
At the moment hard anti-tank is the zoanthrope or the tyrannofex, soft anti-tank is the venom-cannon and Impaler cannon. When you have an army with a couple big smashy beasts you want to use that to your best advantage. Allowing small units to slow down tanks so larger units can get to grips with them without needing wings allows us to take less large units(since they only carry one gun.)

Simply put, you can't hope to encourage swarm play by making the swarm dependent on incredibly expensive practically unscreenable units that are vital in both anti-tank and controlling your army.

Geep
21-01-2010, 08:11
How exactly does a Tyrannofex save from a Demolisher?
The full line of what I quoted was talking about AP3 weapons- the Tyrannofex and Hive Tyrants have/can have 2+ saves.

I don't mind the Harpy being as soft as it is- if I want a very tough model I'll go with a Trygon or similar.
The harpy seems more of a support creature, distracting the enemy with it's firepower before charging in and reducing enemy initiative (to support whatever unit it charges with).

The only thing I don't like about the Harpy is it's slow speed compared to the fluff- a 12" movement MC is great, but it's slow compared to fluff.
The slow speed also causes issues with it's spore mines- it has to have good circumstances to be able to fly over an enemy unit and use the spores, and then there's a not insignificant chance it will hurt itself with it's own spore blasts.
If the spores worked like a swooping hawk grenade pack (the Harpy deepstrikes and you place a spore mine blast somewhere on the table at the same time) I think it would have been a much more useful ability.

Flypaper
21-01-2010, 08:13
Dunno why people are complaining about harpies dying. Warriors, sure - though I'd say making them a couple of points cheaper would be a fairer 'fix' than T5 or Eternal Warrior.

...But harpies? They're carrying a 36" gun and have excellent mobility. The only unit in the game that they really, really hate is the not-so-humble Broadside Battlesuit. Against Vindicators, give 'em a Heavy Venom Cannon (which is a good idea anyway), and play keepaway. The Vindy will actually have to advance to get a clean shot at them, and if you can't make an opponent pay for advancing towards your 'nids, then you're playing the wrong army. :p

Pricing wise, the harpy's a bit steep, but that's necessary to keep it balanced at higher points costs. Any cheaper and the sheer number of MCs 'nids can fit in at 2500+ (where the FOC starts to get seriously constricting) would allow them to curbstomp every other army, easily. They're currently a bit too rich for my 1500pt tastes, but they're fine as fire support at 2000 IMO.

Thud
21-01-2010, 08:16
Oh, for the love of God. How many threads do you guys need to whine about Tyranids? Can't you do it in one of the two thousand other threads dedicated to declaring to the world just how much Robin Cruddace has single-handedly ruined your lives?

Seriously.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 08:19
The harpy is not a model worth its current cost. I can have AV12 fast moving skimmers in other armies blasting around the board at twice its speed with way more firepower that are much harder to kill.

T5, a 4+ save, and its points cost is just way too much.

Considering how many games people typically play at 1500 that have FOCs compared to 2500 where your already getting into apocalypse territory I don't think balancing toward 2500 is fair at all.


Oh, for the love of God. How many threads do you guys need to whine about Tyranids? Can't you do it in one of the two thousand other threads dedicated to declaring to the world just how much Robin Cruddace has single-handedly ruined your lives?

Seriously.

We just wanted to make sure you had another thread to complain about tyranid players complaining about tyranids in.

Thud
21-01-2010, 08:25
We just wanted to make sure you had another thread to complain about tyranid players complaining about tyranids in.

And now you're complaining about be complaining about you complaining about 'Nids? Hopefully the mods won't come along and complain about the complaining going on, because if they overdo it someone could start a thread complaining about how the mods complained to much about you complaining about me complaining about you complaining about the 'Nids.

The word complaining has now lost all meaning to me. I hope you're happy now.

LonelyPath
21-01-2010, 12:41
The harpy is not a model worth its current cost. I can have AV12 fast moving skimmers in other armies blasting around the board at twice its speed with way more firepower that are much harder to kill.

However, a Harpy is alot easier to hide behind cover, seeing as it's alot smaller than a transport and it's jump infantry, plus a monstrous creature so can move its full 12" and fire everything at its disposal. That's something alot of tanks and transports can't do (including many skimmers). It's true the cost is a bit steep, but when used properly it would be a devastating monster.

EDIT: Can people also try to not use the words "retard" and "retarded" so much, or at least use them in the correct context of meaning "backward", I am disabled and feeling very offended by the among of times I seem to be reading these words on here every day since they're being used as a substitute for words such as "moronic", "idiotic", "brainless" and so forth. While not mentally disabled (I have Muscular Dystrophy in case you're interested at all), I do know mentally disabled people and they are FAR from from being ******, idiots, brainless, etc.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 12:58
How can you determine its smaller when we don't have a model. It appears to be carnifex sized and would be on a flying stand making it much harder to hide behind all but the tallest terrain so it could get 50% covered.

As for firing everything at its disposal, its only got two guns, one may be strength 5 but I don't see that as being worth the cost for something that easy to kill.

LonelyPath
21-01-2010, 13:55
The sillouhuette of a carnifex is generally alot smaller than that of tanks and so forth, it may be mounted on a flying based, but it doesn't have to be that far of the ground either. Wings also do not count toward the 50% of the model that needs to be hidden (only the main body, legs, head and arms) so it is effectively easier to hide.

As for having 2 guns that's true, but only Fast vehicles can move that far and fire 2 weapons, everything else gets to fire 1 at best.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 14:03
My fast vehicles can put out 3 twin linked lascannon shots and six heavy bolters shots, degrade all stuns to shaken and be AV12/12/10 for 30 points less than your harpy.

Not to mention it moves faster and transports troops.

They dropped the ball hard on this codex.

IJW
21-01-2010, 14:19
OK, I'm stumped - what vehicle is that?

Back on-topic, my question of why a Harpy whose main gun's range is bigger than the combined move+range of the Vindicator was in range was already asked.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 14:22
A vendetta, entertainingly enough its in a codex written by the same person. I'm sure he doesn't play favorites though...

IJW
21-01-2010, 14:26
Vendettas are only 30 points less if they don't have the Heavy Bolters, just for reference, and will only be putting out that much firepower if it moves 6" or less.

I do agree that the Vendetta is almost universally considered to be undercosted, though.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 14:28
Its 10 points less with two heavy bolters.

I'll take a vendetta taking out a harpy over the opposite if I were a betting man.

LonelyPath
21-01-2010, 14:59
A Vendetta can fire that many that's for sure, but it's one of the few that can. Most armies have just tanks and regular skimmers and the latter only fire 1 weapon when moving 12", that's what I was getting at. I mentioned Fast vehicles being able to fire more, equal to the Harpy's ability to fire in number of weapons.

Harpy's do cost alot, but they will have their uses which will appear over time. They do fall prey to ID (being T5) but re also monstrous creatures and roll 2d6 for AP in CC and are much smaller than a Vendetta and other vehicles (Pirannah, Land Speeder and so forth being the exception and are roughly of similar or smaller size). Of course, I'm sure that people will also likely make them out of Trygon kits, which would make them look meaner and bigger, but there's no need to seeing how there's no official model yet.

I am also wondering why a Harpy moved that close to a Vindicator seeing how it's got 12" on it in range and can easily keep out of harms way by being able to move 12" and fire when a Vindicator can only move 6" and fire it's demolisher...

azimaith
21-01-2010, 15:01
I think he attempted to assault the vindicator with his s5 harpy.