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View Full Version : Is it just me, or are Chaos Space Marines Immature?



Mr Kibbles
21-01-2010, 07:17
I've been thinking that the CSMs are immature in their feelings like "kill, kill, kill!" and nothing else. plus they harbour lots of guilt towards the Imperials, like their teenagers? Are they the vessels for passive agressive, angsty teens?

DrunkTerminator
21-01-2010, 07:32
I feel kinda the same way. They are just like angry kids. I would like to see anarchiststhat fight for chaos itself.

Mr Kibbles
21-01-2010, 07:35
ooh yeah, that would be interesting. They could be lead my Rik from The Young Ones :P

Orktavius
21-01-2010, 07:35
TO be fair....all the original chaos marines basically had daddy issues...hell horus is the poster child for suffering from abandonment issues stemming from his father. Quite frankly that damn emperor was a **** poor father figure :)

Corpse
21-01-2010, 07:39
Are you kidding me?

I'll just take a short breath before I start... I assume you know little about chaos.

Think... Maybe word bearers are a good example. They follow the chaos gods equally. They appeal to them in their own ways. Their faith is unwavering, and they think constantly of why they worship the gods. They think a lot, which makes them very good at converting others to their cause.

Chaos (from my point of view) is a constant and natural. Morals are unnatural, because they do not exist on the same level as dirt, water and natural physics. Chaos is as its name states, and those who worship chaos be it less then smart or the highly intelligent... All follow the same rules. Kill or be killed.

A chaos cultist would be more at home in the wild streets of a hive gang turf then an average imperial citizen. Why? Because all who worship chaos prepare to fight. Just like a tiger cub that is maturing learns by trials of fire. Where the average imperial citizen gets worked to the bone.

Strong steers the weak. Just like the mountain that won't budge to a avalanche, but that mountain will still split to become a volcano.

Natural order is the nature of chaos. Natural selection I should say. It's all a matter of harnessing it, and being lucky (tzeentch be willing).

Lord Solar Plexus
21-01-2010, 07:41
Well, you would think that after a couple of millennia, even the most passionate CSM would have matured a bit but no...



plus they harbour lots of guilt towards the Imperials, like their teenagers?


Their teenagers harbour guilt? I didn't even know they had teenagers to be frank.

Mr Kibbles
21-01-2010, 07:43
Well I kinda meant Khorne to be specific, but Corpse you give a compelling argument

Corpse
21-01-2010, 07:43
Keep in mind only a small fraction of chaos are marines...

I wonder if a moderator might close this thread on the level that it's taking bashing in other people's armies. But it's warseer....

-Edit, posted at the same time kibbles did.

Khorne in particular is a very early deity. Created from rage of any primal creature. Not even the most mature person can escape being angered or enraged. No matter how high his IQ is or what his intentions are.

Khorne feeds off imperials more then chaos marines in fact. All that rage, hate for xenos, spilling blood. It's wonderous why his mark isn't all over the imperial aquilla.

Mr Kibbles
21-01-2010, 07:44
Well, you would think that after a couple of millennia, even the most passionate CSM would have matured a bit but no...



Their teenagers harbour guilt? I didn't even know they had teenagers to be frank.

lol, whoops i meant "they're."

Mr Kibbles
21-01-2010, 07:46
Maybe i should have put this in random musings then. Really I was just presenting an outsiders view of this subject

Lord Solar Plexus
21-01-2010, 07:46
No worries, all's cool. See my sig to find out that you heard my pedantic side. :)

Corpse
21-01-2010, 07:47
Solar...

I read rouge and I started cackling. Damn you.... "I trade colors!"

Mr Kibbles
21-01-2010, 07:48
well Tzeentch is pretty hard to spell

Corpse
21-01-2010, 07:50
I think "Tzeebo" and "**otch" when I first had a hard time spelling it ten years ago.

Vote Kantor
21-01-2010, 07:53
Remember, that Khorne is actually the god of blood and /honour/

Khorne worshipers actually aspire to martial perfection (killing helps with this) (a lot)
Thus they are less "KILL KILL KILL" and more, "I need to find and kill a worthy opponent" The way they are portrayed on the tabletop (eg. khorne bezerkers smashing guard up) is very unlikely, as the khorne marines would (not only be much more rare) search for other marines or something that is more likely to satisfy them.

Mr Kibbles
21-01-2010, 07:55
Ooh, thanks Kantor that gives me ideas for my story

DemonMonkey
21-01-2010, 08:00
Are you kidding me?

I'll just take a short breath before I start... I assume you know little about chaos.

Think... Maybe word bearers are a good example. They follow the chaos gods equally. They appeal to them in their own ways. Their faith is unwavering, and they think constantly of why they worship the gods. They think a lot, which makes them very good at converting others to their cause.


Yup. & that same fervour they applied to the emperor. Until daddy told them to stop & they had a massive tantrum :)

Which sums up pretty much all of the traitor legions albeit over simplistically.

Vote Kantor
21-01-2010, 08:00
Ooh, thanks Kantor that gives me ideas for my story

Quite welcome, Always happy to share my infinite knowledge of why things are actually cool. :p

Mr Kibbles
21-01-2010, 08:01
lol coolio.

WLBjork
21-01-2010, 08:51
Remember, that Khorne is actually the god of blood and /honour/

Khorne worshipers actually aspire to martial perfection (killing helps with this) (a lot)
Thus they are less "KILL KILL KILL" and more, "I need to find and kill a worthy opponent" The way they are portrayed on the tabletop (eg. khorne bezerkers smashing guard up) is very unlikely, as the khorne marines would (not only be much more rare) search for other marines or something that is more likely to satisfy them.

You missed "rage" out there.

And rage is the foremost realm of Khorne; hence Berserkers, Bloodletters, Bloodthirsters etc.

They certainly aren't called Berserkers because they walk around a city saying "You! Civilian, you are not worthy, step away."

Hence, the battle-cry is "Blood for the Blood God. Skulls for the Skull Throne."

Lord Solar Plexus
21-01-2010, 09:20
Mattresses for the gymnasium! Harriers for the cup!

PAnz3r
21-01-2010, 09:23
lol, CSM need a real objective now they seems to be only a sort of carnage machine X)

Malice313
21-01-2010, 09:32
I've been thinking that the CSMs are immature in their feelings like "kill, kill, kill!" and nothing else. plus they harbour lots of guilt towards the Imperials, like their teenagers? Are they the vessels for passive agressive, angsty teens?

I think the only passive aggressive angst here is in this statement... which skirts dangerously close to simplistic trolling.


lol, CSM need a real objective now they seems to be only a sort of carnage machine X)

Yeah!:D Lol!!! Its almost like they should be named after a random, objective-less, chaotic factor!:rolleyes:

Mr Kibbles
21-01-2010, 09:33
I am not passive agressive. I was merely trying to use descriptive language

bluenova
21-01-2010, 09:47
Ha ha, I have this argument with my regular opponent (Chaos player) after almost every game. We pack up the table and sit down to finish off the beer in the fridge and have a chat.

After an hour or so he always (ALWAYS) starts telling me how hard done by the traitor primarchs were and how it's easy to understand them turning to chaos etc. I then say that they (some, at least) might have a valid reason for feeling 'hard done by' but that doesn't justify turning on the Emperor (their Dad), killing him and BILLIONS of people in the process.

This inevitably leads to 2-3 hours of "but, but, but" from both of us. Every Friday night. At about 2 in the morning. Until the beer runs out and I kick him out.

I've never accused them of throwing tantrums like kids though - I'll have to remember that for tomorrow night :-)

Earthbeard
21-01-2010, 09:58
Come to Papa Nurgle, he's the greatest father alive. No more abandonment issues with him.

Vaktathi
21-01-2010, 10:41
I've been thinking that the CSMs are immature in their feelings like "kill, kill, kill!" and nothing else. plus they harbour lots of guilt towards the Imperials, like their teenagers? Are they the vessels for passive agressive, angsty teens?

Sadly, they went from being the dark, ancient enemy of the Imperium spawned from their own excesses at the dawn of the imperium, the same brave heroes who forged the Imperium of Man now fighting to tear down its rotten edifices, turning to the darkest of powers to give them the strength in their long war, to being emo marines tired of slaving away for daddy with the changing of the codex's :(

Orktavius
21-01-2010, 10:45
actually...I think it's more the horus heresy novels then the codex's

Valtiel
21-01-2010, 10:46
Several politicians and rulers have and is behaving rather "childish" and sometimes immature if you ask me. Even in our time. It's pretty much what makes us human. And it's not like some of the loyalists don't act immature imo.

But I agree with Vaktathi, the Chaos Space Marines' image has changed during the ages.

TheShadowCow
21-01-2010, 10:50
Amsing notion time! If the Chaos legions have managed to stick to this "immature thinking" for ten thousand years (+-), then perhaps it's actually a little better thought out than we are willing to consider, and the alternative "maturity" is in fact the self-imposed "greater than thou" dellusion.

Of course, it's not as simple as "daddy issues". It wasn't really even that simple at the time of the Heresy (perhaps, very very broadly for the Primarchs... but even then it's too narrow). Take the Thousand Sons for instance - they existence was a competition between the Emperor and 'knowledge'. Ultimately, it was the Emperor who sent the dogs to kill them, and 'knowledge' that saved them. Vindication of what they'd thought all along, and reason enough to stick with it for the next ten thousand years.

Mr Kibbles
21-01-2010, 11:02
Sadly, they went from being the dark, ancient enemy of the Imperium spawned from their own excesses at the dawn of the imperium, the same brave heroes who forged the Imperium of Man now fighting to tear down its rotten edifices, turning to the darkest of powers to give them the strength in their long war, to being emo marines tired of slaving away for daddy with the changing of the codex's :(

Interesting point Vaktahi. That was the point i was thinking of.

Tommygun
21-01-2010, 11:05
Some parts of Chaos reminds me of Nihilism, but Nihilist I guess would not fight for a cause.
They seem to do everything in excess without regard to consequence.

Vaktathi
21-01-2010, 11:20
That's the biggest thing that had stuck out to me, they lost their dark nobility, their sense of purpose. The Legions, at least going through the Index Astartes and other such fluff, in several cases were simply driven to the breaking point or genuinely betrayed.

The Thousand Sons used their proscribed powers to warn the Emperor of the coming storm, and he condemned them for it (granted, there's some conflict as to whether he had ordered their destruction, or Horus changed the orders to the Space Wolves en-route from securing Magnus and returning him to destruction of the legion to ensure the Tsons had no choice but to join him).

The Iron Warriors were simply over-worked, left to endure the most brutal fighting with no respite to recover, and never acknowledged for their efforts, and would doggedly stick to their ridiculous orders and spread themselves ever thinner in grueling wars and pointless garrison duties that other legions would not commit to even when ordered, and left the Iron Warriors to take up the slack, and this eventually began slowly killing them.

The Night Lords were used as a weapon of terror and fear, and then turned into scapegoats for the excesses of the Great Crusade when they were no longer needed.

In many cases the Traitor Legions had good reasons for casting off the rule of the Imperium, but lost themselves and any reason in their quest for vengeance. That's what made them cool and interesting. It was their blood that was spilt to build the Imperium of Man, their toil and ceaseless efforts to ensure the Emperor's dominion over the Galaxy, and it was they who would dismantle it in their vengeance for the wrongs committed against them. They were the ever present lurking canker that could appear at any time to destroy and plunder.

Now most of what we have is just power drunk marines.

Souleater
21-01-2010, 11:40
I was planning on doing a CSM with all the SM figures I have somehow ended up with but the background in their latest dex really put me off.

They just came across as a bunch of whiney spolit brats.

GrogDaTyrant
21-01-2010, 11:44
I gotta agree with Vaktathi. They've lost a lot of the flair and awesomeness that they had, but I blame most of that on the latest codice's focus towards the 'recently renegade' chapters and not the Legions. Many of the Chaos Legions have a rich past, and some are portrayed in a way that makes you agree with their reasons for defecting. Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons being the two prime examples there.

On a side note, the Alpha Legion are in no way immature. It'd be awesome to make a true to fluff army for them... but the Lost and the Damned are no longer a legal list.

ashc
21-01-2010, 11:53
Sadly, they went from being the dark, ancient enemy of the Imperium spawned from their own excesses at the dawn of the imperium, the same brave heroes who forged the Imperium of Man now fighting to tear down its rotten edifices, turning to the darkest of powers to give them the strength in their long war, to being emo marines tired of slaving away for daddy with the changing of the codex's :(

This is precisely what has happened.

They have pretty much become a parody of themselves with the general toning down of the books (compare Slaves to Darkness to Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th edition :rolleyes:).

Corrode
21-01-2010, 12:36
The only Legion whose motivations I really question are the Word Bearers. Pretty much every other Legion is as Vaktathi said - worn down by chance or fate, or in the Sons of Horus' case devotedly following their Primarch who has some monumental issues with trust, but the Word Bearers have always struck me as just being petulant. Lorgar pretty much goes 'Well fine then, see if you like it when I worship some OTHER god!' Bear in mind that prior to this he's basically been bunking off the Great Crusade to do things that he's not been told to do, and when he gets called out on it he turns into a whiny little punk. Not exactly stirring stuff, especially compared to the tragedy that is Curze or Magnus.

Thanatos_elNyx
21-01-2010, 13:36
So by your logic sociopaths are immature?

Tanith Ghost
21-01-2010, 15:31
Some may be. Lorgar certainly was. He was made to be a soldier, not a cleric.
And when told to do his job, the only right response was to do it.

For all the merits of Magnus warning the Emperor of the heresy about to erupt, he was still wrong. Wrongs done for the right reason are still wrongs, and Magnus was wrong to
disobey the Emperor. He never would have been attacked, or been open to it had he put aside sorcery as commanded.

Lord Malorne
21-01-2010, 15:34
The Horus Heresy novels have not helped get rid of the teenager impression of Chaos Marines.

susu.exp
21-01-2010, 15:47
Chaos gods represent concepts of psychology. Khorne and Slaanesh the freudian Destrudo and Libido, Tseentch and Nurgle the jungian immature and mature personality (the former defining itself by difference the later by similarity). So Tseentch is the immature god. The other ones, not (and in particular Nurgle represents the polar opposite).

Master Jeridian
21-01-2010, 15:54
In a way the OP is right.

Chaos Marines (as are Marines) are taken as young children and brainwashed into teenage killing machines. They never have a chance to 'grow up' with relationships, friendships, etc.
So they are locked into 'angsty teenager' with Arnie's body and told to kill.

GW concentrates on the Chaos Marines which are a tiny, tiny proportion of the humans who turn to Chaos. The Imperial Commander, the coven leader, the learned scholar looking into dark arts- these would all have much more mature outlooks.

But I also agree Chaos today is a parody of the Chaos of yesterday. GW has dumbed down the rules to the point they can't anymore, so are dumbing down the background.

Khorne used to call to honourable warriors and expert military leaders- appealing to their pride and aggression.
Now he only calls to berserk killers.

Lord Malorne
21-01-2010, 15:57
I am under the understanding that after the hersey the maximum age for being inducted in a marine chapter was lowered as the younger they are they easier it is to do the mind stuff. Though the Heresy novels ahve brushed right over that and go with the current age for induction.

Tanith Ghost
21-01-2010, 16:08
In the time of the heresy, the marine process was far more advanced- so most primarchs brought their retainers and household guard with them into service.

Master Jeridian
21-01-2010, 16:21
I figured during the Great Crusade there where Marines as we know them today, and bio-enhanced humans.

The Emperor perfected the Astartes model and produced the Legions on Terra using it after losing the Primarchs.

When he found his Primarchs they inevitably had entourages and followers who wished to follow their leader to the Emperor's wars in the sky.
So they where augmented to be almost as strong, tough, resilient, etc as the Astartes type Marines.

This technology, and the incentive to use it, has been lost after the Heresy.

Thanatos_elNyx
21-01-2010, 16:41
For all the merits of Magnus warning the Emperor of the heresy about to erupt, he was still wrong. Wrongs done for the right reason are still wrongs, and Magnus was wrong to
disobey the Emperor. He never would have been attacked, or been open to it had he put aside sorcery as commanded.

*erk!*
Rolls 20 to resist urge to argue the point. But I don't want to go off topic.

;)

Johnnyfrej
21-01-2010, 16:56
No matter how horrible that baffoon Phil Kelly has mutilated my beloved Chaos Marines, they will always have their true history in my mind.

My World Eaters are not some splintered warband, they still remain a cohesive force of motivated soldiers. The fluff that one Marine, Kharn, could fracture an entire ******** legion of its organization and structure always pissed me off. It's not like the entire reminants of the World Eaters were on Scabithrax or whatever that ice world was called.

Giganthrax
21-01-2010, 17:03
Chaos Marine designs in general are pretty immature. Their models, while generally cool, are somewhat idiotic from the fluff perspective.

I mean, can you really imagine a maddened Khorne berzerker spending his time painting his armor and adding all those fancy horns and the like to it? Or Abbadon requiring his entire black legion to go around carrying hooked chains and spikes all over their armor? I mean, what's the point in that except to make it easier for the enemy to know whom they're supposed to shoot? It's like CSM were expecting to appear on posters or something.

The only CSM units that I find don't look like a child's vision of evil, are plague and nurgle marines in general (who usually look same as loyalists, only rotten, rusty, and truly disturbing and inhuman), thousand sons (who also look like loyalists, only with those fancy egyptian things on their helmets), obliterators (who look like mutating terminators), and possessed (standard marines daemonified).

Everyone else looks like they've spent their lives not bringing death and misery to humanity, but attending armor-painting classes and sticking spikes and hooks to their armor "cuz that'll make them scared of me, muahahhaha."

Lord Malorne
21-01-2010, 17:12
I think berzerkers would be more effective as regular armoured marines with combat weapons and coated in dried/fresh blood and gore. Not 'spiky bits'.

MrInsomniac
21-01-2010, 17:26
Chaos Marine designs in general are pretty immature. Their models, while generally cool, are somewhat idiotic from the fluff perspective.

I mean, can you really imagine a maddened Khorne berzerker spending his time painting his armor and adding all those fancy horns and the like to it? Or Abbadon requiring his entire black legion to go around carrying hooked chains and spikes all over their armor? I mean, what's the point in that except to make it easier for the enemy to know whom they're supposed to shoot? It's like CSM were expecting to appear on posters or something.

The only CSM units that I find don't look like a child's vision of evil, are plague and nurgle marines in general (who usually look same as loyalists, only rotten, rusty, and truly disturbing and inhuman), thousand sons (who also look like loyalists, only with those fancy egyptian things on their helmets), obliterators (who look like mutating terminators), and possessed (standard marines daemonified).

Everyone else looks like they've spent their lives not bringing death and misery to humanity, but attending armor-painting classes and sticking spikes and hooks to their armor "cuz that'll make them scared of me, muahahhaha."

If I saw a Space Marine coming towards me in ornate, polished power armour I'd be filled with relief. If I saw a Space Marine coming towards me in ornate power armour with heads hanging of his belt and horns coming out of his helmet I'd crap my pants.

Remember that it has been stated that visual representations are there to immitate real life - The lightning on Night Lords isn't drawn onto their armour, it is actually electricity arking across their bodies.

The only exception to this are the Word Bearers, who really do spend hours looking after their armour, writing passages from the Book of Lorgar and what not.

jsullivanlaw
21-01-2010, 17:39
Remember, that Khorne is actually the god of blood and /honour/

Khorne worshipers actually aspire to martial perfection (killing helps with this) (a lot)
Thus they are less "KILL KILL KILL" and more, "I need to find and kill a worthy opponent" The way they are portrayed on the tabletop (eg. khorne bezerkers smashing guard up) is very unlikely, as the khorne marines would (not only be much more rare) search for other marines or something that is more likely to satisfy them.

This is the old fluff. The honour part is long gone. (hell Skarbrand attacked Khorne when he wasn't looking)

Chaos Marines or no less mature than anyone else. They try to worship their gods the best they can and take what they want if they can. The imperials do the same thing.

Nexus Trimean
21-01-2010, 17:41
I Believe there is a Relevant Phrase in my signature.

FashaTheDog
21-01-2010, 17:50
Several politicians and rulers have and is behaving rather "childish" and sometimes immature if you ask me. Even in our time. It's pretty much what makes us human. And it's not like some of the loyalists don't act immature imo.

Not the NYS Legislature, oh no. :rolleyes:

As for Lorgar he was a religious fanatic shunned by his own god. If anything, I think he took it rarher well. Imagine if you will that you are a religious fanatic, someone who feels and acts on the belief that non-fanatics of your dogma must be killed. Now with that mindset have the one you worship and kill in the name of not only refuse your worship but publically denounce it. Now add in the fact that part of your identity is being a son of that very 'god' and there's a start of what Lorgar had to find a way to cope with.

Cruze had to betray the Emperor. He basically foresaw that an Imperial assassin would kill him so he was actually the one who was betrayed, so long as it came to pass which it did becaused he turned against the Emperor. Without him his Legion, excepting Zho Shaal, descended into Chaos through their own excess, turning the use of terror and fear as a means to an end into the end they seek to achieve.

Scribe of Khorne
21-01-2010, 18:45
This is the old fluff. The honour part is long gone. (hell Skarbrand attacked Khorne when he wasn't looking)

Chaos Marines or no less mature than anyone else. They try to worship their gods the best they can and take what they want if they can. The imperials do the same thing.

And Skulltaker challenges the greatest of Khornes enemies to honorable single combat.

Skarbrand is a representation of Khornes Rage.
Skulltaker is a representation of Khornes desire to compete against the best in single combat. (Oh, and Decapitation :p)

Every character is a representation of a facet of the god they follow. People who feel that its nothing but "Kill Kill Kill!" just dont apply any thought to what they read.

The God of Decay
21-01-2010, 19:04
Wow, calling Chaos Marines immature teenagers? I'm pretty sure that goes on the record as army bashing. No, chaos is not Immature teenagers! Does nothing have sacred value anymore? That's like saying oh, i saw a Tyranid on a movie, called AVP....

[cricket noise]

Khorne seeks out the most experienced, battle-hardened warriors to fight in his name, and in return they become masters of close combat, honorable in that they stare their victims in the face when they slaughter them.

Tzeentch is all-knowing those who seek knowledge seek his council and thus become masters of sorcery. And with tzeentch's infinite knowledge they gain foresight on how to use their powers to benefit chaos.

Slaanesh, the prince of perversion, nothing is too sacred for Slaanesh to tread upon. Marines who follow slaanesh often seek out pleasure in all it's forms, when all attempts fail to satisfy them, they seek out new extremes, they will even fight alongside rival Legions simply for the thrill of it.

Nurgle, quite possibly the most sensible of the chaos gods, while khorne seeks battle and honour, and Tzeentch toys with sorcery, Nurgle manipulates the flesh. He creates his poxes and diseases to create a pustulent paradise, his followers become something they have always feared, they become death itself. When you become what you feared most, what else is there to fear?

BaronDG
21-01-2010, 19:12
Chains and spikes do fill a function though: trophy racks. It isn't enough to kill for chaos, you must show that you do it!

Ryan814
21-01-2010, 20:07
Chaos (from my point of view) is a constant and natural.



Thinking about this statement is actually mind blowing.... I invite all of you to spend 30min on this.

WinglessVT2
21-01-2010, 21:35
This came about with their latest codex, which made them 'more evil,' which translates into lame and boring.
In the old one, they were more like tragic anti-heroes.

Now they're all 'let no good deed go unpunished. Let no evil deed go unrewarded!'

Mannimarco
21-01-2010, 21:36
sadly we have seen an over simplification of chaos over the years: khorne being the god of war and bloodshed but also honourable combat and martial prowess is now reduced to "Khorne mad! khorne smash!"

nurgle being the god of decay but also of life and laughter and the determination to buckle down when things get bad triumph over adversity and becoe stronger though it has now become some random monster who just like to make little diseases for kicks (granted the GUO fluff still refelcts his character a little)

so with the over simplification of the gods its only natural we see an over simplification of their followers: khorne = raging psycopath of mass killyness? khornes followers should be the same etc

and theres the whole issue of at the stroke of a pen chaos went from being the greatest threat to the galaxy we must always watch out for to some big bad scary monsters with a bunch of pirates with daddy issues

actually quite painful to see what chaos has been reduced to

totgeboren
21-01-2010, 21:52
The only Legion whose motivations I really question are the Word Bearers.

I think the Word Bearers are the ones with the most noble, pure and "mature" purpose of all the Legions.

The rest were all corrupted or forced into situations where they had no other choice than side with Horus.

The Word Bearers realized that the one whom they (and all others) held as the highest in all things turned out to be wrong. That is something that takes alot of maturity and willpower to handle, and they instead set to work on saving the masses of humanity that had fallen to the sway of this charlatan. You can compare this to say Martin Luther, who rose against the Catholic church, not because they treated him badly (emo angst everyone talks about), but because he felt they did not follow what they preached. I see Lorgar more in this light. The rebuking from the Emperor might have been personal, but what it revealed had consequences that were much more serious than a merely bruised ego.

The Word Bearers started it all, because they so fervently believed that theirs was the way forward, and that the Emperor failed to grasp what they saw as the most important aspect of keeping a civilization together. Religion.

Its easy to denounce Gods and such when you are more or less a god yourself.
"Fear not darkness and spirits my followers! I have seen all that they hide, and though monstrous, powerful and vile, I have slain them all! You need not fear, since I do not need to fear!"

He clearly missed the part where your average human most certainly need to fear monstrous and vile things in the dark, that are powerful enough to fight the Big E, a God among men.

Anyway, the only thing keeping humanity alive now is fear, violence and religion. So it looks like the Word Bearers might have been right after all.

BaronDG
21-01-2010, 22:16
Where is the fluff that made Khorne god of martial honour?

Lord Malorne
21-01-2010, 22:23
Was in the 3rd ed Chaos marine codex amongst others.

vladsimpaler
21-01-2010, 22:42
No, you're thinking "Renegade Imperial Marines". Not Chaos Space Marines.

Chaos Space Marines have lived in the eye of terror for 10,000 years and only gurgle unutterable phrases to the gods they worship. They couldn't care less about the Imperium. Except for Abaddon of course.

TheOneWithNoName
21-01-2010, 23:15
Games Workshop doesn't do a good job of giving them any real depth.

WinglessVT2
21-01-2010, 23:22
They should.
Chaos are good sellers, and a popular army.

BaronDG
21-01-2010, 23:28
Was in the 3rd ed Chaos marine codex amongst others.

I looked on the Khorne section of the 3rd ed. codex and it talked about people being ensnared by their martial pride, not that martial pride was a khornate value.

vladsimpaler
21-01-2010, 23:38
Anything having to do with war/killing is a value of Khorne. If it spills blood or enables the spilling of blood, it's a Khornate value.

Hence why in Slaves to Darkness, one of the rewards that Khorne gave to his followers was technology. It worked for both 40k and WFB, so a WFB general could have a lascannon. :evilgrin: Boltguns, like swords, are tools of death and so Khorne likes them.

Martial Honor was never really stated as an attribute Khorne, but he is very much like a Samurai (no tricks or spells) so it's always been assumed.

Now he is a frothing psycho who only likes close combat which is terribly boring.

Scribe of Khorne
22-01-2010, 00:12
You guys arent looking at Khorne from a wide enough, or deep enough perspective. I dont have time to do this post justice, but heres a cliff notes version...

Khorne is the Lord of Battle, a god of War (not the only God, but arguably the most potent of the Warp Entities that gain strength from War), a God of Rage, and Bloodshed.

Khorne is the embodied representation of the need to "dominate and destroy, to conquer and kill" - 40K Daemons Codex.

All aspects of War fuel Khorne in some way, which is why someone else mentioned that the Imperium of Man likely fuels Khorne more then any other group in the Universe.

Now, each Warp Entity that is come to be known as a Chaos God has been described as a Vortex within the Warp, the center of which is built on the most core emotion (Rage) that powers that Vortex. As that vortex grows, it absorbs, or envelopes other closely linked emotions, or concepts.

Rage -> Fighting -> War -> Warriors -> Martial Pride.

If you have Martial Pride, you are a Warrior.
If you are a Warrior, you are involved in making War.
If you make War, you are Fighting.
If you are Fighting, you are filled with Rage.

Follow the chain, and your honorable warrior sect, is at the end of the equation, generating rage in the Warp, that is powering the Warp Vortex Consciousness that we know as Khorne. :evilgrin:

BaronDG
22-01-2010, 00:22
But: "...pride becomes conceit in the realm of Chaos, and from conceit it is but a short step to tyranny."

And where is the honour and nobility then?

Scribe of Khorne
22-01-2010, 00:25
Thats just it. Its a stepping stone, you dont escape the chaos gods. Ever. :)

vladsimpaler
22-01-2010, 00:26
But: "...pride becomes conceit in the realm of Chaos, and from conceit it is but a short step to tyranny."

And where is the honour and nobility then?

Like I said above, it has never really been stated that martial honor was a tenet of Khorne but it is something that is pretty much assumed and a given.

Martial honor is about respect and not using trickery or anything like that, correct?

That's what Khorne does. Maybe not necessarily respecting, but certainly a head on fight with no hidden tricks is certainly one of Khorne's big things, and I think that this is like martial honor.

IMHO, anyway. :)

Scribe of Khorne
22-01-2010, 00:30
His armies heave with those ensnared by notions of courage, honour, martial pride and revenge: all such concepts lead ultimately lead to the base of the Blood God's throne. - 3rd Edition v2 Chaos Codex.

EDIT: Honestly, I can never understand how people see Khorne as a shallow character, you can work in so much...

vladsimpaler
22-01-2010, 01:44
EDIT: Honestly, I can never understand how people see Khorne as a shallow character, you can work in so much...

It's actually interesting, Khorne is the most deep and conflicted of all of the gods which is why I find him the most interesting to me.

RedSarge
22-01-2010, 02:26
Wait what? "kill, kill, kill!" is immature? If that's immature I don't want to live anywhere near a school.

I think what you're trying to say, good sirs, is that you feel Chaos Space Marines are one-dimensional.
Yes , a lot of the portrayals are, specifically KHORNE.

Thankfully a lot of newer background has shown them in a different light.

Johnnyfrej
22-01-2010, 03:18
I dare anyone who says World Eaters (aka Khorne Berzerkers or visa-vesa) are one-dimensional to read After Desh'ea from Tales of Heresy.

vladsimpaler
22-01-2010, 03:39
Thankfully a lot of newer background has shown them in a different light.

Actually, I'd blame the newer background for putting the Chaos Legionnaires in such a one-dimensional light.

Especially Khorne. "Grr kill stuff we r so grimdark lol"

@JohnnyFrej- I don't like Black Library, most of it is terrible and I don't want it to ruin the Horus Heresy for me. :)

Scribe of Khorne
22-01-2010, 04:18
Actually, I'd blame the newer background for putting the Chaos Legionnaires in such a one-dimensional light.

Especially Khorne. "Grr kill stuff we r so grimdark lol"

@JohnnyFrej- I don't like Black Library, most of it is terrible and I don't want it to ruin the Horus Heresy for me. :)

If you are at all a fan of the World Eaters, Angron, or Kharn, you owe it to yourself to get the Tales of the Heresy just for the short story "After Desh'ea".

Really.

Malice313
22-01-2010, 13:16
Interesting.

Even though the moderators think that the original post was (and I quote) "ideal fodder for trolling and arguments" they are not going to stop this thread.

Gaargod
22-01-2010, 14:21
Because people aren't trolling? They're not going to shut a thread just because it has the potential to be problematic. Although it really should be in background section.

On topic, i really hope they go back to the old fluff. Maybe if we get a Chaos: Legions codex, as that's the perfect vehicle for it.

ashc
22-01-2010, 14:22
Because people aren't trolling? They're not going to shut a thread just because it has the potential to be problematic.

Yes, just where do you think we are, the old GW forums? :p

Or China perhaps? :shifty:

Johnnyfrej
22-01-2010, 14:47
@JohnnyFrej- I don't like Black Library, most of it is terrible and I don't want it to ruin the Horus Heresy for me. :)
Black Library is great... if you know which writters to read.

Personally Graham is my favorite. Abnett would be a contender but I don't think he writes good combat stories. His books on the Inquisition are great because he goes into what life is like for ordinary citizens of the Imperium.