PDA

View Full Version : The Harpy



iluvatar18
21-01-2010, 18:34
So yes I realize there are about a brazillion different Tyranid threads right now, but I wanted to bring up this one question/issue I believe may be in the codex.



The Harpy is 160 points, and so is the carnifex. How is that justified? (Bear with me, I don't have the codex, I'm at work and this came up last night.) The harpy has the same WS and BS as the carnifex. All good. But the Harpy has 4 Less strength and 1 Less toughness, which makes it instantly killed. It has a 4+ save where the Carnifex has a 3+. I believe attacks are the same.



Now for the Harpy pros. It can fly! It has a stranglethorn (sp?) cannon and the ability to drop spore mines, Once. Does the strength and toughness difference justify the flying and 2 ok guns?



160 for 160 is not great. I know the Carnifex is overpriced, but the Harpy is more so. If it had synapse I would understand its points, but it doesn't.



Is there something I'm missing? I do love flying Tyranids and have this dream of a Winged Tyrant with 30 Gargoyles and a Harpy to just devastate an enemy flank by getting there by turn two, but a lucky str 10 blast would ruin Everything.



P.S. Plus the Harpy would just be a fun modelling project, but I don't want to attempt it just for the model to suck.

Wurrzog da Orcy Tomb King
21-01-2010, 18:50
Plus the Harpy would just be a fun modelling project,

There is your reason to use it.

Also I think its pretty good for the following reasons.

It can fly
this means it can quite easily melee a tank (with S+2D6) with a high chance of killing it (assuming it isn't a land raider or monolith although if your lucky and roll a 10+ its possible) . Thus making it a transport killer leaving you a turn to use Fleshborers (from Gaunts) hurt the fleshy insides.

Flight allows it to have a better pick of ranged targets than a Fex.(Admitedly not much of diffence but meh)

Has access to 2 large pie plates or 1 large and 1 small. The small being a (slightly worse than a lascannon)tankbuster in a pinch.

It can drop 1-3 Pie plates on a Troop killing vast amounts of Geqs and Orks(Is there such thing as Oeq/Ork equiv?) and being Ap 4 means it can do well against slightly more armoured troops[assuming Guard have access to 4+ on their vets] such as eldar (banshees and Dire avengers for one er two)

This makes the harpy a versatile unit, able to switch from killing hordes to tanks quite efficiently (as efficient as -3 on the vehicle splosion chart is)

and an awsome modelling project to boot!

If you read all that then congratz you now have the bored special rule.

Wurrzog

ghoulio
21-01-2010, 18:56
A Carnifex is 160 with no guns, while the Harpy has a twin linked stranglethorn cannon (so a carnifex with the same layout is 180pts). It also comes with cluster spines for free (str 5, large blast template).

If you fly over a unit you can drop d3 spore mines (str 4, ap4, large blast) and then shoot the same squad for a max of 5 large blast templates in one shooting phase.

Also, dont underestimate how good having a cheap(ish) flying MC is. A Hive Tyrant with the same weapon load out is a min of 250-260pts (ie 100pts more).

Personally I think harpies are way better then people give them credit for, and would say that it is the Carnifex that is overcosted, not the harpy. There are a lot of things you can do with them game wise. Sure they are T5, 4+ armor save but they still have 4 wounds. If you run them behind Gargoyles you now have a 4+ cover save.

LonelyPath
21-01-2010, 19:13
I agree with Ghoulio in that I also believe the Harpy is better than it's being given credit. it's not immensely or immediately powerful, but if you think about it, it has a few merits and those are quite considerable.

The Harpy is only T5, but how common are S10 weapons in the game? There arent that many about when you look closely. It's a monstrous creature that flies about and can fire every weapon at its disposal every turn. it's got a smaller sillouhuette than tanks and other large models since the wing do not count for LOS and can be hidden quite easily behind terrain if you mount it quite low on a shorter flying base (a legal, but cheeky tactic, heheh). Heck, for a few points you can give it a twin-linked heavy venom cannon making it far more deadly to higher toughtness/AV targets at a distance.

It is not to great at CC, but it can take out most vehicles without breaking a sweat.

Also, the Harpy can be given regeneration, while putting this with the heavy venom cannon makes it more expensive, it gives a chance of it staying around longer to shoot up some more targets before it is finally shot down.

As for modelling it, a Carnifex kit with some wings pretty much does it, or if you feel more adventurous, a Trygon, Carnifex, Wings and whatever else comes to mind.

Gaargod
21-01-2010, 20:47
4+ save, T5. MC is nice in some respects (i.e. hitting stuff) but does mean you're very unlikely to get cover saves as you need 50%.

The thing is bait for most guns in the game. S10 guns (railguns especially) will have a field day against it. Heavy bolters shred it. Hell, normal bolters pose issues.

The only way its surviving if you abuse target priority by putting lots of high potential units up at the same time, at which stage its free to do its thing as no one will waste the shots on it.

WinglessVT2
21-01-2010, 21:29
It's a flying monster with a large gun, that drops bombs on people.
That's why it costs 160 points.

Radium
21-01-2010, 21:41
You have a monstrous creature in your FA slots... And what the others said basically.

naloth
21-01-2010, 21:47
It's a flying monster with a large gun, that drops bombs on people.
That's why it costs 160 points.

Being a MC is more of a drawback since it's harder to justify a cover save. The typical benefits - ignoring armor saves and 2d6 penetration - are largely useless since it only has WS3 A2.

Vepr
21-01-2010, 21:48
Proxied it for some of the test games I played recently just to see what it could do.

First game against marines it broke open a rhino before dropping.

Second game against orks actually caused some havoc and survived the game.

Third game against tau.... not so much...

Not sure if I would make one part of an all comers list but might be fun to throw into a list sometimes.

LonelyPath
21-01-2010, 22:32
Against close range hordes like orks the harpy would excel if it's kept out of harms way. Also hitting small elite units like tankbustas and kommandoz would harrass those units quite a bit if you drop bombs on them, then turn back and assault. Hitting first with 3 MC attacks and you'd still be hitting on 4's against most targets. Against orks you'd also have a field day shooting them with a stranglethorn cannon, given average rolls for scatter against large ork mobs, you'd be hiting and likely killing 5 or 6 at least with each shot. Adding a Stinger Salvo to that and you can really wreak havoc. While not great compared to the initial cost of the harpy, it'd take it's toll over time since they'd have to get you into CC to really have a chanfe of getting rid of it.

I can see myself modelling a Harpy in time, not sure when though as there are still other tings I want to try out, like a tyrannofex and backing a Doom up with 3 Zoans and a trygon to really have the enemy wondering what the heck they should tke out first ;)

Worsle
21-01-2010, 23:07
The thing is bait for most guns in the game. S10 guns (railguns especially) will have a field day against it. Heavy bolters shred it. Hell, normal bolters pose issues.

The only way its surviving if you abuse target priority by putting lots of high potential units up at the same time, at which stage its free to do its thing as no one will waste the shots on it.

So it is only surviving if you understand how to target priority works? I am sorry but knowing you need to put out lot of threats so no one unit being destroyed is a problem is abuse? Are my guys meant to go in one at a time and get beaten up like they are the bad guys from some sort of martial arts movie?

Really most threats people are talking about are nonsense. The difference between it and most other MC when it comes to weapons people use to take them down is either negligible or non-existent. Heavy bolters and auto cannons are your only real worry and if you can't avoid or just out range them then yes you should not be fielding them. S10 weapons are not enough of an issue for it to matter really, either to short a range or taking up slots that are better used in other ways (or in a Tau army;)). The hydra is a worry though, about the only real one.

Give your harpies (you are not just fielding one are you?) venom cannons and cluster spines you are set. Gives you a MC from your fast attack slots (important) that gives you some thing you can't really get else where.

LonelyPath
22-01-2010, 00:42
Peronsally I'd use it to take out softer targets, staying well away form things that could easily blast it out of the sky and only take on such things if there are also a couple of other significant threats for that target zeroing in from different directions. If that's cheating coz I'm overwhelming an enemy then I guess that's what they call it, heh.

FashaTheDog
22-01-2010, 01:53
My only problem with taking a Harpy is that I drop almost 1500 points on the Trygon Prime, 5 Fexes, Tyrant, and trio of Tyrant Guard and only have 350 points to spend on Genestealers. At 2500 I would feel fine adding one in, although I would prerfer one more Fex instead so 3000 might be a better size.

While S10 weapons are worrysome, the real threat is AP4, especially SoBs. Blessed Ammo on an Immolator with heavy bolters or any of the army's many heavy flamers will ruin a Harpy's day since their only hope will be a Venomthrope since cover saves are out. With the exception of the heavy bolters, the Sisters will need to be close to deny cover saves but they're going to be anyway. IG also have plenty of AP4 no cover save tricks, but at range. There is also Fire on My Target making the ordered unit's shooting reroll successful cover saves too.