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Darthvegeta800
02-02-2010, 18:27
I was wondering... is WoTR overtaking the SBG? Will it become the main focus of GW? It's of course a system tat enables more models to be sold than the SBG. And from what I read quite a few Fantasy players were drawn to it as an alternative for mass warfare. Where the SBG game though i'm sure quite good, seemed to be less effective at doing that.
Or am I mistaken?

Red Metal
02-02-2010, 18:44
I think there is a very strong chance that WOTR will overtake SBG. From speaking with GW staff at my local store, they seem to really be pushing the WOTR game more and just offering the SBG Mines of Moria box set to avid fans of LOTR - almost like they treat that set as some kind of stand alone board game or something. Plus, given GWs interest in making money by making games bigger, WOTR would be ideal for this. I also think GW maybe didn't make enough money off of the expansion books for SBG as they would like, since I'm sure not everyone bought every single book that came out.

Overall, I see GW really moving ahead with WOTR, at least until the rumored "The Hobbit" movie comes out. That will give them alot more figures to produce, since they already have the license. Now if "The Hobbit" never comes out, then I can see WOTR (and all their LOTR products) getting stale and be pushed back into the realm of Mordheim and Necromunda. Or they could just let the license run out if there are no movies in sight and then SBG/WOTR will just be an isolated game with no further improvement. So, I guess the future for WOTR is good up to a certain point.

McMordain
02-02-2010, 18:47
Well in my are there was like one or two SBG tournament since it come out and in the last year there was 3 WotR tournament. And there will be one this year too with an event in every month. No SBG though...:(
Most people I know like bigger games, more figures the better.

tezdal
02-02-2010, 19:20
Mass battles seems to have far more appeal then the SBG, WOTR is a great ruleset I just wonder if it's too little too late.

Xelee
02-02-2010, 20:23
IMO (no way I can know other than anecdotaly), quite a good proportion of the player groups forming for WOTR are new players, not converted SBG players.

So it's overtaking, by growing the pie rahter than taking away from SBG.

Lord_Goober
03-02-2010, 00:07
Well, in chicagoland it seems like SBG is the main version of the game being played right now. Heck, AFAIK there is NO round 1 for the Ard Boyz series within 3.5 hours of Chicago.

The Marshel
03-02-2010, 03:12
i thought it was obvious wotr was taking over sbg from the start. think about it, the game takes significantly more miniatures, so to build an effective wotr army you must focus more so on wotr. while you can play sbg, you not likely to be buying stuff on a sbg basis, its more of an added bonus to you.

On top of this, every release since wotr has been wotr driven. the unreleased models from lome seem largely abandoned, or seem to have had a major design change with wotr in mind (for example, i'm confident in saying the dragon knight began as dragon guard, a 10 point warrior choice in the easterling list, now a combat hero cost many times more then that, mainly due to it being a command option in wotr rather than a warrior) the sbg rules have been causally pased off into white dwarf, and some of them seem lazily written and/or poorly thought out. (eg, the knight of umber is redicollous in its abilites an ruins the dark marshal and khumal as "combat" wraiths, the latter already had nothing left to lose which only makes it worse, and the arkban guard or what ever they are called, "Chop!" really, thats the best name they could think of for the special rule? why not just call it, "excuss to ignore the disadvantages of thw without any reasonable justification, for the sole purpose of making new minitures far more powerfull then old ones, and thus making you buy them")

Finally, obvious opportunities missed army book wise. I cant understand why they even bothered with the godor, harad and mordor books if they were just going to abandon sbg books like they have the moment wotr came out. the only justification i can really think of is that wotr was concieved and created between a time period of shortly before the mordor books release and the release of wotr itself. Either way, they have missed blidinly obvious opportunies. the galadhrim releases for example could have been done alon side an elf army book, including all elves of midle earth. the relese could have been expanded to include two additional plastic sets, high elf warriors and men of numenor, espliting up te last alliance set to make collecting armies for these forces so much easier for both sbg and wotr, and likely making a fair bundle in the process (i for one would have bought a high elf sbg army on the spot) the son to be released rohan iengard stuff could have been accompanied by an isengard rohan nemisis book, similar to the fall of arnor and kazadum books. both armies have no rules outside of the two towers book and rule book, both were major forces in the lotr story line and both have their respective holes that need filling. Not to mention rohan's dire need for sbg rules update. add plastic dunlandings and maybe even plastic rohan royal guard cavalry to the release and there you have it, a major wotr/sbg release.

SBG will never be unsupported as long as wotr exist, but as it stands now, its just been tagged on to wotr as something you can do with a smaller proportion of your miniatures. as a pure sbg player, it does upset me, but then we werent doing a great deal better support wise before wotr anyway, so i suppose sbg hasn't lost a great deal, and who knows, maybe in a few years time when gw updates wotr, they might start releasing combined wotr/sbg army books, thatd make me happy.

Darthvegeta800
03-02-2010, 08:29
Combining books and updating/expanding the SBG rulebook would be nice.

Dr Death
03-02-2010, 12:09
It was a bit of an inevitability that WotR would eclipse the SBG- the appeal is far more overt and accessible (who doesn't like the idea of huge armies?) and it followed the literally huge success of 40k's Apocalypse.

The other problem is that there really only is room for one 'core' system for any given 'universe' GW produce, the rest, either formally or informally will become 'specialist' games. Because War of the Ring is ultimately an entirely different system to the SBG, it is not an 'add on' like the siege rules or like Apocalypse kind of is to 40k, so people feel it's too much hassle to memorise two complete rulesets for regular play.

Also there's GW's own failing in royally dropping the ball with the SBG. While i'm all in favour of 'free' and more regularly updated rules for the SBG in White Dwarf, i think at the very least an end of year 'compendium' like they used to do is required, though further supplements would certainly be better.

I suppose the SBG will get a new look when The Hobbit is released, in fact i wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the reason it's been a bit quiet- it's entirely possible that merchandising talks are already underway. But the conflicts in The Hobbit are plainly (with the exception of one notable) more suited to the SBG, so a rebranding and general resurgence of the SBG is something i'd put a bet on :D

Dr Death

scarletsquig
03-02-2010, 13:57
They should have released WOTR 5 years ago, IMO.

I was hoping that the Return of the King book would add mass battle rules, but it didn't.

Spiney Norman
03-02-2010, 22:16
I was wondering... is WoTR overtaking the SBG? Will it become the main focus of GW? It's of course a system tat enables more models to be sold than the SBG. And from what I read quite a few Fantasy players were drawn to it as an alternative for mass warfare. Where the SBG game though i'm sure quite good, seemed to be less effective at doing that.
Or am I mistaken?

Well in a sense it already has, GW has dropped SBG like a hot rock where support for the system is concerned, all we've had in over a year is a few hand-outs through White dwarf where they print rules for their new WotR models so they can sell even more of them.

To be honest if they hadn't made such a mess of the heroic duel system in WotR I'd probably only be playing that now since SBG is obviously not going to get it myriad problems fixed any time soon.

Wil Grand
08-02-2010, 23:03
As a lapsed fantasy game player who's moved into figure painting and historical games I'm seriously giving WotR some thought. Dare I take the plunge?

Spiney Norman
09-02-2010, 00:19
yes, do it. Heroes work so much better in WotR than in fantasy, it always seemed remarkably dumb to me that one individual could butcher entire units of troops on their own, whereas in WotR the only time heroes actually fight is when they're duelling another hero (and granted the duel mechanic is shafted), the rest of the time, they increase the abilities of their formation and use leadership abilities in the form of heroic/epic actions.

Avatar of the Eldar
09-02-2010, 02:43
As a lapsed fantasy game player who's moved into figure painting and historical games I'm seriously giving WotR some thought. Dare I take the plunge?

Dare! Dare!

I'm just like you. I've petered out on WFB and had more interest in FoW, Napoleonics or just painting 40K models for giggles.

This is the system I wish WFB was.

tezdal
09-02-2010, 05:02
I wish WFB rules would move closer to WOTR, probably the best set of rules GWS produced in years and year

Xelee
09-02-2010, 08:01
This is the system I wish WFB was.
I'm more inclined to say that this is the system I wish FOG was.

If you leave off the magic and accept the large bow/move ranges compared to the table size, it seems to me produce the best of FOG's outcomes in terms of moves, formations etc with much less headache.

Wil Grand
09-02-2010, 09:54
Thanks guys, I'll look into it. The reason I was thinking about it is that all the games I play are 'in house' literally so everyone who I play against is friends who don't actually paint and collect but enjoy the odd game but not enough to get 'in' to anything. If I played a GW game then I could get a game at a GW shop...

I've got a little bit of everything from the LotR range but mostly display painted characters but but also a painted plastic box of each infantry type so I'm not a complete virgin to the range. Last time I actually played SBG was when I played through the Fellowship journey book but used the then defunct RotK.

What my next question is, in terms of the SBG points system, what sort of size or force is required play for a walk in game?

Spiney Norman
09-02-2010, 11:26
That depends what size game you want and which army you're using.

Most infantry formations need to be 4 companies (32 models) to be effective, although the more elite ones would be fine with 3 (24 models), while archer formations are better at 2 companies (16 models) to get the best out of your shooting.

Most games I've played tend to be 1000-1500pts, although we're trying to build our forces up to 2k. My 1K fallen realms list has

4 companies of Haradrim spearmen
4 companies of Easterling warriors
3 companies of Easterling Pikemen
3 companies of Easterling Archers
4 Companies of Easterling Kataphrakts
4 companies of haradrim raiders
Mumak
2 Characters (Amdur & Khamul)

It contains 125 infantry (inc. Mumak crew), 16 cavalry plus the mumak and two hero models

I would say this is the minimum size you'll need for a decent game.

Wil Grand
09-02-2010, 11:57
Now that doesn't seem too bad in terms of figure numbers so I think I'm in! Thanks for the advice chaps and for the formation rundown Spiney Norman!

I'll get a few more boxes in and clock in to GW Edinburgh to see what the crack is and get the book. See if I can hook up some SBG games in in the meantime.

Shrapnelsmile
13-02-2010, 16:48
Now that doesn't seem too bad in terms of figure numbers so I think I'm in! Thanks for the advice chaps and for the formation rundown Spiney Norman!

I'll get a few more boxes in and clock in to GW Edinburgh to see what the crack is and get the book. See if I can hook up some SBG games in in the meantime.

...and the figures paint up faster than 40K or Fantasy Wil. I think you'll be happy you started!

jamesterjlrb
13-02-2010, 19:04
At my local store GW store i've seen more WOTR battles in the last year than i think i've seen SBGgames in the past 8 years.

Etienne de Beaugard
13-02-2010, 20:30
The local FLGS had stopped carrying LotR products for several years, but they picked them back up with the release of WotR.

Wil Grand
13-02-2010, 20:35
...and the figures paint up faster than 40K or Fantasy Wil. I think you'll be happy you started!

I think I might be, indeed! I'm not sure I can meet the numbers required right away so I'll get one with painting what I can and playing a few SBG games until then. I haven't venutred into a gaming club/GW shop for a game in about eight years so I'm a little apprehensive about being a guy with a bit of grey in what could be a room of kids.:eek:

Raisans
16-02-2010, 00:51
as someone reentering the whole games workshop atmosphere after a hiatus of a few years, i find it incredibly disturbing that WoTR has been created and is encroaching upon SBG. i grew up on SBG, and now that we're in recession, games workshop turned things like 40k, where you were representing far greater numbers than you were actually fielding, into those actual numbers with the release of Apocalypse. that was infuriating. now SBG has turned into WotR. this is absurd, part of the thing i liked about SBG was that it involved careful strategy, not just hurling masses of models at each other. it allowed for individual battles to be duked out like seen in the movies and described in the books. not a swarm of soldiers that happen to contain Aragorn being wiped out, but a group of individuals fighting with Aragorn, picking out individual fights in the battle. in games workshop's attempt to make some extra dough, theyve lost the novelty and in essence the original aim of their operation: strategy games.
im not buying into it, im coming back to LotR SBG with an SBG rohan force at 1000 points and thats it.

Enfid
16-02-2010, 06:01
Have you tried WotR? It does involve lots of models (and to GW, that's definitely a good thing), but the system is fluid and I, as well as many people who have played WOTR, will say that it's probably the best of the 'big three' of Games Workshop. Also, unlike Apocalypse, WOTR is actually fun to play.

While you may be interested in individual battles like in the books and the movies, to me WOTR is more. If I want to reenact the scenes in the books, I'll go for SBG. If you want to carve out your own place in the Tolkien universe with a great army of your own devising, WOTR is for you.

Incidentally, I want to try playing the SBG as a pre-battle skirmish, then WOTR after that. That way we can get to use both of the great systems.

Darthvegeta800
16-02-2010, 08:40
Have you tried WotR? It does involve lots of models (and to GW, that's definitely a good thing), but the system is fluid and I, as well as many people who have played WOTR, will say that it's probably the best of the 'big three' of Games Workshop. Also, unlike Apocalypse, WOTR is actually fun to play.

While you may be interested in individual battles like in the books and the movies, to me WOTR is more. If I want to reenact the scenes in the books, I'll go for SBG. If you want to carve out your own place in the Tolkien universe with a great army of your own devising, WOTR is for you.

Incidentally, I want to try playing the SBG as a pre-battle skirmish, then WOTR after that. That way we can get to use both of the great systems.

Apcalypse isn't fun to play... FOR YOU. I don't play Apocalypse but avoid putting it in such a 'everyone sees it as a fact' manner. Last i checked A LOT of people love Apocalypse.

Sedge
17-02-2010, 13:17
as someone reentering the whole games workshop atmosphere after a hiatus of a few years, i find it incredibly disturbing that WoTR has been created and is encroaching upon SBG. i grew up on SBG, and now that we're in recession, games workshop turned things like 40k, where you were representing far greater numbers than you were actually fielding, into those actual numbers with the release of Apocalypse. that was infuriating. now SBG has turned into WotR. this is absurd, part of the thing i liked about SBG was that it involved careful strategy, not just hurling masses of models at each other. it allowed for individual battles to be duked out like seen in the movies and described in the books. not a swarm of soldiers that happen to contain Aragorn being wiped out, but a group of individuals fighting with Aragorn, picking out individual fights in the battle. in games workshop's attempt to make some extra dough, theyve lost the novelty and in essence the original aim of their operation: strategy games.
im not buying into it, im coming back to LotR SBG with an SBG rohan force at 1000 points and thats it.

I like WotR, i do not care for SBG at all. Each to their own but SBG has no interest level at our club. It was dabble with by a few of our members but skirmish level games (Mordheim and Necromunda included) just don't hold the interest of our players. Now when WotR came along that all changed. A few people bought the book and were encouraged by the aparent simplicity of the rules, we got a few armies (of ebay) and we go started and WOW what a game it is.

We now have a growing core of WotR players that love the game. It rivals WFB and 40k for player interest at the moment (it might change but we are fickle). It is a very good system that rewards tactics rather than army building which as we all know is the main thing people talk about on the other forums.

So to answer the encroaching on SBG. Not at all, no one was interested in SBG (here anyway). How does SBG represent the battle of Pelennor Fields with 40 odd warriors :wtf:, WotR is much more suited to such roles. Each has its strength and weaknesses enjoy both.

smaul
17-02-2010, 15:01
as someone reentering the whole games workshop atmosphere after a hiatus of a few years, i find it incredibly disturbing that WoTR has been created and is encroaching upon SBG. i grew up on SBG, and now that we're in recession, games workshop turned things like 40k, where you were representing far greater numbers than you were actually fielding, into those actual numbers with the release of Apocalypse. that was infuriating. now SBG has turned into WotR. this is absurd, part of the thing i liked about SBG was that it involved careful strategy, not just hurling masses of models at each other. it allowed for individual battles to be duked out like seen in the movies and described in the books. not a swarm of soldiers that happen to contain Aragorn being wiped out, but a group of individuals fighting with Aragorn, picking out individual fights in the battle. in games workshop's attempt to make some extra dough, theyve lost the novelty and in essence the original aim of their operation: strategy games.
im not buying into it, im coming back to LotR SBG with an SBG rohan force at 1000 points and thats it.

By your comments Im not sure you have ever played WOTR or read the books.

seems your judgment is a little clouded by what you "grew up on"

If you dont think that WOTR involves strategy then you have either never played it or have never played it correctly.

just my $.02

Shrapnelsmile
18-02-2010, 01:54
By your comments Im not sure you have ever played WOTR or read the books.

seems your judgment is a little clouded by what you "grew up on"

If you dont think that WOTR involves strategy then you have either never played it or have never played it correctly.

just my $.02


precisely.

WillFightForFood
18-02-2010, 06:29
Deleted Post

Enfid
18-02-2010, 08:47
Apocalypse isn't fun to play... FOR YOU. I don't play Apocalypse but avoid putting it in such a 'everyone sees it as a fact' manner. Last i checked A LOT of people love Apocalypse.

Point taken. It was meant more as a tongue in cheek comment (a la stand up comedies) but I'm sorry it came across as that.

Darthvegeta800
18-02-2010, 09:16
Point taken. It was meant more as a tongue in cheek comment (a la stand up comedies) but I'm sorry it came across as that.

Naah is fine. Just wanted to underline it. There are a lot of generalisations on the net. And a lot of spite/venom thrown around between the varying gamesystems of GW. As if one group is more elite, tactically inclined or superior to the other. For instance Warhammer Fantasy > Fantasy. Apocalypse being for 'dumb people' just shoving hordes of models. And Wotr being the superior undervalued brother of WH:F.
I only play WH40K atm but i bought an army of Easterlings for WotR and plan to paint them up before delving into it. But I can appreciate the look, feel and approach of all the systems having watched most of them in the store in the past. None is superior, they all just have other strenghts and another kind of 'atmosphere'.