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rtunian
02-02-2010, 22:01
well, should they?

kyussinchains
02-02-2010, 22:07
making dispel scrolls non-automatic would just lend more strength to magic heavy/dependent armies....

my DE armies normally have the seal of ghrond, and a level 1 caddy.... 4 dispel dice and 2 scrolls will perhaps get me through a single magic phase... less if the scrolls weren't a guarantee.....

they already have a mechanism for this, it's called ultimate force, scrolls already don't work against that.....

Hrogoff the Destructor
02-02-2010, 22:07
I've never been a big fan of anything that "automatically happens" without a hitch. I think there should be a small degree of failure with just about everything in the game (with a few exceptions), dispel scrolls included.

gdsora
02-02-2010, 22:08
As a TK player.
I have very little inherent magic def.
I usually bring one or two scrolls to deal with high rolls, or magic i cant rely on my small amount of dispel dice to dispel.

I like scrolls how they are right now.

StarFyreXXX
02-02-2010, 22:14
considerng how cheap they are and you can have multiple ones, yes,chance to failure is fine.

Sanjay

Zoolander
02-02-2010, 22:37
Actually, I would say they should fail on a 1 or a 2 seeing how cheap and prevalent they are! But I prefer them to add 2 dispel dice instead of an auto cancel mechanic.

Condottiere
02-02-2010, 22:38
No, not without fundamental reform of the entire magic system.

Witchblade
02-02-2010, 23:22
No, not without fundamental reform of the entire magic system.
This is what I was going to say.

Voss
02-02-2010, 23:25
Indeed. Its the only thing that gives some armies even half a chance in the magic minigame.

And frankly spells already have a chance of being immune to dispel scrolls, so they really already have one.

emperorpenguin
02-02-2010, 23:27
They should be the exact opposite of Power Stones, ie +2 Dispel Dice

Volker the Mad Fiddler
02-02-2010, 23:43
They should be the exact opposite of Power Stones, ie +2 Dispel Dice

Within the game system of warhammer, there is a major flaw in this thinking though- defense is inherently weaker than offense. It is reactive rather than proactive. Therefore to have equal costs, a defense item must have a greater effect than a comparable offensive item.

sulla
03-02-2010, 00:05
well, should they?The whole magic system should be redesigned to give diminishing returns for too much magic. Then power stones and dispel scrolls can be re-examined too.

rtunian
03-02-2010, 00:10
the prospect of redesigning the magic system, as well as the imminence of the 8th edition and probable existence of modifications to the magic system, renders the question this thread is based on entirely irrelevent.

as such, please consider the question in the context of the 7th edition rules as they otherwise are

W0lf 1990
03-02-2010, 00:31
Fail on a 1 sounds good to me.

TBH id like to see scrolls removed from the game... however itd require a huge rework of the magic phase.. one thats needed mind.

theunwantedbeing
03-02-2010, 00:39
They're fine as they are.
Its 25pts to stop a single spell that may never appear.

If they did have to fail then make them work on a 5+.
Although if they don't work they may be re-used unless you rolled a 1.
Only one scroll may be read per model that has them.

That's what I'de do to make them not auto-stop a spell every time.
We'll see what 8th edition and a new magic system does to them in time anyway.

zak
03-02-2010, 00:44
The scrolls are fine as is. The magic system on the otherhand is not. I don't find scrolls ruin the game and a magic heavy army can get rid of two scrolls very quickly in my experience.

Necromancy Black
03-02-2010, 00:52
as such, please consider the question in the context of the 7th edition rules as they otherwise are

That doesn't help. What people said still applies. With the current magic system and the magic most armies can get, you can't change scrolls like this without making magic armies more powerful.

Maoriboy007
03-02-2010, 01:05
As a VC player with spamming availability on a single dice, I'd say yes. If you don't like me spamming spells then it has to be worth my while to throw those extra dice rather than risking a miscast just to have someone to wave a sheet of paper in my face and say "Nyar Nyar Dispel scroll".
Make em 20 points and fail on a 1, maybe a one or two.

rtunian
03-02-2010, 01:09
That doesn't help. What people said still applies. With the current magic system and the magic most armies can get, you can't change scrolls like this without making magic armies more powerful.

what you have typed (which i underlined) is a valid reason why scrolls shouldn't have a chance to fail, and thus has merit within the context of this thread.

what others have typed, that i want to discourage, is the looking forward to the future. i want this to be a discussion about what is now (and how the current environment would be affected), not about what might be six months from now. i know you can appreciate the difference :)

Nurgling Chieftain
03-02-2010, 01:51
Herding cats today, rtunian? ;) Good luck with that!

The fact that the dispel scroll is identifiable as a necessary component of the metagame simply underscores the fact that it is overpowered for its points value.

ChaosVC
03-02-2010, 01:53
I voted no, but I am having second thought, a fail on a roll to 1 seems fair. But then again, power dice are cheaper and easier to get with the powercreep of each army book released....no again then.

mdiscala
03-02-2010, 02:00
It kind of takes some of the fun out of the magic phase for me. I don't know about the metagame but I know I like to gamble and a 1/6 chance is more fun than no chance.

emperorpenguin
03-02-2010, 02:11
Within the game system of warhammer, there is a major flaw in this thinking though- defense is inherently weaker than offense. It is reactive rather than proactive. Therefore to have equal costs, a defense item must have a greater effect than a comparable offensive item.

I disagree. What you are not taking into account is that an attempt at casting may fail, wasting power dice and thus saving dispel dice, making the next dispel even more likely.

If a dispel scroll is pulled out of the hat then those power dice are wasted and the next casting, if there is one, is yet more likely to be dispelled, even if successful.

Nothing should be so automatic as dispel scrolls imo

Condottiere
03-02-2010, 02:12
But then we need to make casting more chancy and remove the ability to mitigate miscasts.

Agnar the Howler
03-02-2010, 02:18
It would help against people who would otherwise look at the slaan I just dumped on the table and re-design their whole list to be filled with wizards loaded with dispel scrolls, but that's more of a localised issue and probably isn't enough to warrant a change like this.

kaubin
03-02-2010, 02:21
They already have a chance to fail, it's called irresistible force. I feel that's good enough of a fail safe against them. You also can't use them if you try dice dispelling...

xragg
03-02-2010, 02:53
Spell scrolls, power stones, and other items that are automatic should fail using that line of thinking also.

stazba
03-02-2010, 03:12
I vote no.

I personally have never really liked the magic aspect of warhammer as much as the combat and movement phase. Taking away cheap and automatic dispell scrolls would, imo, just make magic that much more prevalent. Keep it as it is.

Arjuna
03-02-2010, 03:50
No, not without fundamental reform of the entire magic system.

I have to agree with this. Also I think 1 in 6 chance of failure is too high. I would be more in favor of limiting 1 scroll per character though.

sulla
03-02-2010, 04:02
as such, please consider the question in the context of the 7th edition rules as they otherwise areThen leave them as they are. They are a neccessary mechanism to cope with magic heavy armies.

Barry "the blade"
03-02-2010, 10:30
Didn't vote yes or no because I don't think the fail on a 1 is the best choice. What do you think of this?
Dispell scroll: 20 points.
One use only. Roll 2d6 to stop a spell from being cast. If the result of the 2d6 roll is 6 or lower the casting player may use an additional power to try get that spell off by rolling equal to or greater than the total of the 2d6 dispell roll.

Just a thought...

Barry "the blade"
03-02-2010, 10:31
Didn't vote yes or no because I don't think the fail on a 1 is the best choice. What do you think of this?
Dispell scroll: 20 points.
One use only. Roll 2d6 to stop a spell from being cast. If the result of the 2d6 roll is 6 or lower the casting player may use an additional power to try get that spell off by rolling equal to or greater than the total of the 2d6 dispell roll.

Just a thought...

snurl
03-02-2010, 10:45
Excessive force happens often enough. Maybe too often. I voted to keep the scrolls the way they are.

PeG
03-02-2010, 11:12
I think they should be kept as they are today. Increasing the cost would result in hero level mages only being able to carry one of them thereby making magic defence for several armies difficult or very expensive. There is enough power in the magic phase already and it doesnt need any additional help to get more success with the big damage spells

Col. Frost
03-02-2010, 11:32
If im paying 25 points for a one shot item, i want it to work.

The shear number of PD some armies have in the magic phase now compared to other armies DD they need a guaranteed chance to dispell a few spells in a game.

ashc
03-02-2010, 11:42
Considering magic system needs a rework, magical defence does too, in my honest opinion. Dispel scrolls would be one thing that would need looking at.

At the moment, giving them a chance to fail would hurt armies that tool for defence and just helps the heavy magical armies even more so.

W0lf 1990
03-02-2010, 11:43
Actually scrolls arnt broken. The magic phase is.

the Goat
03-02-2010, 12:59
Actually, I would say they should fail on a 1 or a 2 seeing how cheap and prevalent they are! But I prefer them to add 2 dispel dice instead of an auto cancel mechanic.

Agreed. Dispel scrolls should be just like power stones (add two dice to the roll).

The reason I don't like dispel scrolls is because they not only stop one spell 100% of the time, but they also allow the player to save all of his dispel dice. This makes stopping other spells during the same phase much easier.

For instance:
Player A tries to cast three spells in one turn. Without a scroll Player B has enough dispel dice to either solidly counter two spells or weekly counter all three spells. But if he uses a dispel scroll on the first spell, he can shut down the entire phase pretty easily. (this is a very general analysis, of coarse dice rolls will affect what happens, so there are no guaranties)
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narrativium
03-02-2010, 13:33
Some people don't like scrolls because they're absolute, and think they're too common... I wish I could take more of them, but then I don't usually take magic-heavy armies and so don't have the magnitudes of dispel dice often required.

I'll concede to letting dispel scrolls fail on a roll of a 1 if, say, on the roll of a 6 the scroll wasn't used up, but could be used again (with a -1 modifier next time, so it's more likely to fail and can't be used three times, but only if that doesn't make game tracking too complicated).

Desert Rain
03-02-2010, 13:53
Without some serious changes to the magic phase, both in the BrB and in the army books scrolls should stay as they are.

The SkaerKrow
03-02-2010, 14:33
I think that they should continue to be automatic, but I'd like to see them increase in cost by five points in every army. The over-proliferation of Dispel Scrolls is just as much to blame for the current state of the Magic System as Magic Heavy armies are.

Desert Rain
03-02-2010, 14:50
I think that they should continue to be automatic, but I'd like to see them increase in cost by five points in every army. The over-proliferation of Dispel Scrolls is just as much to blame for the current state of the Magic System as Magic Heavy armies are.

You're right about that, the magic phase has turned into some sort of arms race, and that isn't good.

Skyros
03-02-2010, 16:11
What problem is this suggested solution attempting to address? Magic not being strong enough? Some armies have extremely powerful magic phases.

Is it attempting to address the problem that just taking an L2 or two for magic is utterly useless? This won't address that problem at all.

I'd have to vote no, seeing as how this seems to be a solution without a well defined problem.

The problem with the magic phase is not that general magic is too powerful - it's not. The magic and lores in the BRB are, if anything, too weak. If you take one L2 he is going to do more harm to himself than the enemy. Two L2's is almost certainly going to do nothing. one guy attempting to cast one spell on two dice isn't anything to worry about.

The problem is that some armies have abilities that let them break all the normal rules of magic
-they can choose their spells instead of rolling randomly, or can choose more spells, or re-roll dice they don't like
-they can generate more power dice, sometimes many many many more power dice
-they can use more powerdice than the normal limit
-they can use special lores with lower casting values.

Any 'general' weakening of dispell scrolls simply makes these overpowered magic armies even stronger without really making the 'medium' magic armies any more viable.

Bac5665
03-02-2010, 16:22
More randomness is almost always unnecessary and a bad idea. The game should be won and lost based on skill more than luck (though luck is and should be part of it, but only a minority of the determinate.)

I have never found Dispel Scrolls to be a problem, and I play almost exclusively high magic armies, so I would care if it were a problem. First of all, all of the newer armies have magic defense that makes scrolls unnecessary, or sub-optimal. Second of all, maybe its a culture thing, but no one in my club really ever takes more than 2 per army, and the best players often don't take any. I rarely take more than 1. They just tend not to be very points effective beyond the first or second.

So no, at least in my experience, scrolls are fine the way they are and don't need changed.

sulla
04-02-2010, 02:56
What problem is this suggested solution attempting to address? Magic not being strong enough? Some armies have extremely powerful magic phases.

Is it attempting to address the problem that just taking an L2 or two for magic is utterly useless? This won't address that problem at all.

Well said.

N1AK
04-02-2010, 12:26
The fact that the dispel scroll is identifiable as a necessary component of the metagame simply underscores the fact that it is overpowered for its points value.

That's a bit of a strawman. The fact that dispel scrollls are one of the only ways to effectively counter some of the top tier armies is the reason it is fielded on mass.

To put it in context, if a 10pt common magic item existed that read "Roll D6 at start of game on 2+ you win" then is a 50pt common magic item that blocks it overpowered? Everyone would take it, after all you couldn't face someone with such a powerful ability without taking defence...

Magic is far more complex than this mythical item, but the point remains. Go up against a 12+ power dice army without scrolls and you might as well let your opponent roll a dice at the start to see whether he wins ;)

Obviously the odd exception exists, Ring of Hotek DE and mass dispel dice Dwarf armies, but they don't disprove the point.

N1AK
04-02-2010, 12:36
The over-proliferation of Dispel Scrolls is just as much to blame for the current state of the Magic System as Magic Heavy armies are.

I want to field no sorcerers in my Warriors of Chaos army. You cannot compete in a remotely competitive enviroment without bringing magic defence.

If I stopped bringing a scroll caddy, you really think my opponents are going to decide to stop bring 10 levels of magic, bounds, bonus power dice etc? You think they'll decrease their magic phase by 2-3 power dice per turn so they can do the same amount of damage but for less? I know they'll bring the same amount of magical ability and take advantage of being able to get a half dozen extra potentially game winning spells off each game.

I'd happily of bought an item or gift for an Exalted Hero that generated dispel dice. I'd of bought an upgrade for the warshrine that provided some kind of magic counter etc. But these things don't exist. The best magic defence you can buy without buying magic offence is MR2 on one character...

Magic defence isn't the reason for heavy magic, the magic would be heavy regardless. I'd happily let GW nerf dispel scrolls if they tone down the barrage you'll face without them.

ewar
04-02-2010, 13:44
I don't think scrolls are as essential as people make them out to be, and I see it from both sides. I have a slann list which brings 12PD and no scrolls (rely on becalming and 6DD which gets me through fine). Or I bring a bretonnian list with 2 lvl 1s to provide MR, 2 scrolls and 5 DD with the chalice of malfleur (again, perfectly sufficient to give me enough time to take down some of the enemies casters).

Scroll spam does encourage people to bring more levels of magic. I know I would gladly drop my skink priest for a saurus hero, however I need his PD to draw scrolls/DD for my slann to be able to cast anything.

I know some say that it is a response to magic heavy armies, but I remember early in 6th ed that magic didn't do much as scrolls would just wipe out a lvl 4s ability to cast.

I think they should stay automatic, be made 30pts but not restricted to wizards. It removes the need for caddies and stops hero level characters spamming them at the same time. In future, a common item to add MR or DD would also be good.

The SkaerKrow
04-02-2010, 13:57
I want to field no sorcerers in my Warriors of Chaos army. You cannot compete in a remotely competitive enviroment without bringing magic defence.And I can't get much out of bringing four Levels of Magic at 2,000 points because of how over-saturated armies are with magical defense. With that in mind, I'm inclined to take no magic, or eight or more levels of magic, just so I can surmount my opponent's overwhelming magical defense.

Both the presence of magic heavy armies and the proliferation of builds that shut down magic completely are why mid-grade magic lists (dare I say, what the magic system was designed around) are so uncommon.

Bac5665
04-02-2010, 14:20
What builds are out there that shut down magic completely? I take very magic heavy lists to a lot of tournaments, and I've never been "shut down." Sometimes my slann does less than other times, but I'm still getting some spells off and having meaningful magic phases. I love the wizards duel aspect of two magic heavy lists, dispelling each other and working hard to get key spells off.

I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never seen dispel scroll spam cause a problem in a game, or had a problem with magic heavy lists, one way or another.

Cambion Daystar
04-02-2010, 14:34
When scrolls are getting spammed, that means your opponent is already taking a lot of wizards to counter your magic (and paying a lot of points for it) since they are the only ones that can take them.

Condottiere
04-02-2010, 15:07
The only way to compensate a dumbing down of the Scrolls would be to increase the basic number of Dispel Die.

narrativium
04-02-2010, 16:23
It's escalation. One side can take a lot of magic so another side feels the need for lots of magical defence, so a third side feels a need to take more magic offence to compensate. High magic offence naturally comes with lots of dispel dice, so doesn't require scroll spam, which makes them top dog. Thus scroll spam or heavy magic becomes the norm.

Either magic-heavy armies need to come down or magic defence needs to be naturally higher.

Maoriboy007
04-02-2010, 19:09
What builds are out there that shut down magic completely? I take very magic heavy lists to a lot of tournaments, and I've never been "shut down." Sometimes my slann does less than other times, but I'm still getting some spells off and having meaningful magic phases. I love the wizards duel aspect of two magic heavy lists, dispelling each other and working hard to get key spells off.

I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never seen dispel scroll spam cause a problem in a game, or had a problem with magic heavy lists, one way or another.

DE , Chaos (Vilitch List), and LM have very effective anti magic lists. Demons Dwarves and HE can field a lot of dispel dice pretty easily.
I play a pretty mild VC list (6 levels of magic and 1-2 bound spells). Except in my luckiest games (the rare golden dice games) I have yet to see the overpoweredness of spam raising.
I would love to cast other spells but the ring of hotek, infernal puppet, becalming cogitation ,usually backed up by anything from 2-4 scrolls makes me want to punch people complaining about the "brokeness" of spam raising in the nose.

sulla
05-02-2010, 00:26
DE , Chaos (Vilitch List), and LM have very effective anti magic lists. Demons Dwarves and HE can field a lot of dispel dice pretty easily.
.You forgot to add your double corpse cart VC in there for good antimagic lists. :D

Maoriboy007
05-02-2010, 02:14
You forgot to add your double corpse cart VC in there for good antimagic lists. :D

As long as they don't get fireballed off the table :)

Maoriboy007
05-02-2010, 02:34
I think that they should continue to be automatic, but I'd like to see them increase in cost by five points in every army. The over-proliferation of Dispel Scrolls is just as much to blame for the current state of the Magic System as Magic Heavy armies are.

Back in the last couple of editions magic was not as powerful as it is now but people took just as many dispel scrolls, not because Magic defence was so important, but because it made it so easy to screw over any investment your opponant put into his magic phase.
Now the spell lores have been made tougher and wizards are getting all sorts of bonus' so that players who have spent points on magic can actually get a decent return on their investment, thus begins the magic arms race.
While I feel little sympathy for people who overused scrolls in the first place, now the people who didn't are getting screwed unfairly.

N1AK
05-02-2010, 12:39
And I can't get much out of bringing four Levels of Magic at 2,000 points because of how over-saturated armies are with magical defense. With that in mind, I'm inclined to take no magic, or eight or more levels of magic, just so I can surmount my opponent's overwhelming magical defense.

Both the presence of magic heavy armies and the proliferation of builds that shut down magic completely are why mid-grade magic lists (dare I say, what the magic system was designed around) are so uncommon.

I'm saying outright that I would play my WoC with no mages, just the basic 2DD and MR2 on one character if I knew I couldn't face more than the equivalent of say 7PD. I think that many people would drop scroll caddies if the level of magic offence decreased.

Conversely, I don't think many players who are fielding 10+ PD would automatically take less magic if they knew their opponents could only take 4DD and 2 Scrolls. Why? Because points spent on magic get better the less defense you face.

Thus decreasing magic defense won't stop heavy magic, as it isn't cost effective. However limiting magic offense will decrease magic defense as the cost effectiveness of magic defense decreases when magic offense falls.

Memnos
05-02-2010, 13:14
The whole magic system should be redesigned to give diminishing returns for too much magic. Then power stones and dispel scrolls can be re-examined too.

They already did.

The magic system, before army books, is fantastic.

No more 'magical batteries' from hordes of apprentices.

Worse miscasts than the previous edition.

I'm not going to say that certain armies ruined this by creating magic batteries and removing miscasts by getting fantastic, cast-on-one-die spells, but I'm looking at you Daemons of Chaos and Vampire Counts.

Not Ogres. Great spells for 1 die is counterbalanced by having no magic batteries and little magic.

WarmbloodedLizard
05-02-2010, 13:30
I think they should have a chance to fail. however! this should go in hand with a change of the magic system as a whole.