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musical
03-02-2010, 22:55
I have only been playing fanatasy for the last 2 years or so and recently came across someone selling their army book collection and they had Storm of Chaos. I understand its a Campaign from a few years back a bit like Lustra but someone was referring to it as a 'fiasco' and I wonder why.

Malorian
03-02-2010, 22:58
It's the time where time stopped, all fluff stopped, and some fluff went backwards...

Ultimate Life Form
03-02-2010, 23:00
There are lots of threads in the Background section that touch the matter; if you're interested go and dig there a bit.

It is my understanding that the biggest gripe that players have is that GW set up a mega-level campaign that affected the entire world, found out they took on too much, came up with an absolutely ridiculous ending that returned everything to the status quo and have since made every effort to write it out of the background.

There are other people around however who can give you a far more detailed overview, so let's hope they show up...

Sygerrik
03-02-2010, 23:18
SoC was a lot of fun while it ran. There were a number of SoC-only lists, most of which were pretty grotesquely overpowered, and some really neat scenarios, but the fluff took such a nosedive that most people like to pretend it never happened.
Basically, Valten, the Second Coming of Sigmar, showed up in the Empire and kicked lots of ass, and the whole campaign built up the challenge he posed to Archaon. Then they actually met at the climax, fight lasted two paragraphs, and ended with Archaon kicking Valten around before being absolutely OWNED by Grimgor Ironhide, of all people. Grimgor then turns around and leaves, Archaon's horde dissolves for no readily identifiable reason, and Mannfred von Carstein (who had been built up as a huge threat) turns around and leaves for equally insipid reasons (he is reminded that this one time an Arch Lector got super lucky and killed Vlad von Carstein, so he was obviously DOOMED). Then Deathmaster Snikch kills Valten and escapes and status quo is restored in the most anticlimactic fashion possible.

Not only that, but most of the other minor SoC characters were killed off or restored to their antebellum selves through deus ex machina, like Garagrim Iron... fist. Also, Garagrim was sculpted with a dong. Also, the Tomb Kings and Lizardmen were barely involved at all in the whole thing.

Pros: Totally awesome variant lists for Skaven, Dark Elves, and Dwarves, and pretty neat ones for a bunch of others, including WoC, Empire, Orcs, VC, HE.

Cons: Utter fluff failure, lack of balance, player input disregarded (especially the Skaven players' Project Supremacy).

Stumpy
04-02-2010, 02:04
The thing is, we were hoping the fluff to change afterwards, but no. Everything is the same, all the main characters are still alive, no land has changed hands, nothing.
Same thing happened with the nemesis crown. Its kind of annoying for something to be a huge campaign where there is a story and lots of new fluff and characters being introduced and in the end, its removed as if nothing happened.
I know major changes they won't do, but it'd be nice for minor ones to happen that don't change the entire setting of the game due to a campaign that we fought through. Like Valten not being killed and added to the empire army book, or the lizardmen establishing a base in the old world that they can start fighting from, or the dwarves giving back the phoenix crown, or the dark elves getting a foothold on Ulthuan, or the dwarves taking back one of the lost karaks.

limkopi
04-02-2010, 02:10
You can't sell models of dead characters.

Darnok
04-02-2010, 02:15
You can't sell models of dead characters.

Half the range of special characters (both WFB and 40K) would like to disagree.

kylek2235
04-02-2010, 02:17
You can't sell models of dead characters.

and yet they made four models of a stupid character they killed off that never actually made it into the campaign.....

ChaosVC
04-02-2010, 02:30
Storm of chaos did have something good about it though, the current plastic chaos warriors are a product of that particular campaigns, though they look static, they are also awesome.

Sadly, storm of chaos is a joke and GW will never ever hear the end of their own stupidity of their own stupid creation with a stupid ending of their own. I pity the players that actually modelled their army based on storm of chaos variant list, some of my friends have to remodel their collection to revert them back for normal gaming.

tezdal
04-02-2010, 02:33
You can't sell models of dead characters.

I'd think the Vampire counts/Tomb kings would tend to disagree.

High Loremaster
04-02-2010, 02:48
Not to mention the order forces kicked the utter snot out of Chaos.

Rogue
04-02-2010, 02:55
I think that just about everyone hit the basics as to why it was a fiasco. You would think that participating in a campaign of that magnitude should mean something in the end but it turned out to change nothing, like the nemesis crown. I would recommend that you stick to your own campaign.

On another note the armylists were rather interesting. Some may need to be revised in my opinion but overall some nice concepts with these armylists.

ChaosVC
04-02-2010, 03:13
The lorthern sea guard list and the Cult of slannesh are a favourite.

Stumpy
04-02-2010, 03:35
Ah, the cult of slannesh. I remember them. So much better than normal dark elves. Everyone got cool army list variants... except the empire. Their's sucked.

Eric.Miller
04-02-2010, 03:44
The lorthern sea guard list and the Cult of slannesh are a favourite.

The Cult of Slaanesh was awesome but the Fleet list was one of the worst abominations, second only to the Slayer list. There was nothing interesting at all in the entire list, so to make it fair they had a special rule that removed everything interesting from the opponent's list before the game began.

What a crock.

The Eshin list, Carstein list, Cult of Slaanesh list were all good. The Daemon list was simply bent, even more powerful than the DoC book in my opinion.

The rest were mediocre or uninspired, but the Sea Elves and the Slayers were simply abominable.

Sir_Turalyon
04-02-2010, 03:50
I think reason Storm of Chaos ended in fiasco is that Studio din't expect the outcome to divert so much from a draw, and that with their 3-month WD production time they had to write final campaign background before it ended. The campaign was supposed to represent great incrusion of chaos worshippers into Empire, ending in titanic siege of Middenheim. Background released after campaign such as WD articles or WFRPG books described siege repelled but city half-devasteted. In actual campaign unthinkable happened and Chaos forces never made it to city walls - there was no siege. The longer the campaign was taking, the less and less it's background matched actual situation.

I believe Storm of Chaos will be return to background in few years, in way studio always wanted it to happen. After majority of players will be to new to remember campaign or just won't care about game outcomes from ten years ago, it will be ret-conned to Archaon breaching city walls and almost taking the Middenheim before being heroicaly repelled.

ChaosVC
04-02-2010, 03:54
The Cult of Slaanesh was awesome but the Fleet list was one of the worst abominations, second only to the Slayer list. There was nothing interesting at all in the entire list, so to make it fair they had a special rule that removed everything interesting from the opponent's list before the game began.

What a crock.

The Eshin list, Carstein list, Cult of Slaanesh list were all good. The Daemon list was simply bent, even more powerful than the DoC book in my opinion.

The rest were mediocre or uninspired, but the Sea Elves and the Slayers were simply abominable.

Well I only played the Cult of Slaanesh then because my HE wasn't ready but I can tell you alot of HE players love their Lorthern Sea guards all of a sudden because of Storm of chaos.

Yep, Slayer list is really shi tty, I played chaos and I have to bloody kill every single unbreakable stunties just to win the bloody game....bloody squats with orange hair deserved to have all their hair shaved!

enyoss
04-02-2010, 04:40
The Cult of Slaanesh was awesome but the Fleet list was one of the worst abominations, second only to the Slayer list. There was nothing interesting at all in the entire list, so to make it fair they had a special rule that removed everything interesting from the opponent's list before the game began.

...

The rest were mediocre or uninspired, but the Sea Elves and the Slayers were simply abominable.

Agreed, the High Elf list was a complete and utter joke. It took all of the flavour of the High Elf army (the range of units), put it through the wringer, and left nothing but seaguard and shadow warriors. Then, just in case people hadn't realized that their army choice was completely one-dimensional, they were given a special rule which encouraged an all out approach to shooting.

As for the merwym... why?... Just... why?

Overall it looked like the list had been knocked up in 30 minutes. My cat could have done better, and it's been dead for 20 years.

On the other hand some of the other lists, such as the Cult of Slaanesh and Daemon Legion lists, had some real flavour.

LordZombie
04-02-2010, 06:34
I have never understood the hate for the Storms of Chaos, it was a alright campaign. It had WD features and support. True, the ending was weak and everyone counts the armies as unoffical now days (my gaming group still uses them) but it was not the ulimate failure that was called the nemsis crown. I have never ran a campaign in all my years that was as bad as that one. Sure, it had the mega battle to get everyone together to play, but they only worked if you played empire versus orc and goblin. I have never felt as dirty as I have after playing the nemsis crown.

scipunk
04-02-2010, 06:52
It was also the time where Daemons got their own lists and every one wanted to use one even after the campaign. It was hilarious though....if you thought undead popped like crazy, wait until they failed their instability test and your unit of 20 daemons would just disappear back into their realm:p

If its for the right price, I say get it...its a fun read despite the final outcome of the campaign.

ChaosVC
04-02-2010, 07:00
I have never understood the hate for the Storms of Chaos, it was a alright campaign.

Its not that people hate the campaign, its that people are not impressed when GW decide to white wash the whole thing out of existance after everyone have commited some of their time to the honestly fun event and got a...."IT NEVER HAPPEN! GO ON WITH WHAT YOU ARE DOING.":p

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-02-2010, 07:01
Overall it looked like the list had been knocked up in 30 minutes.

It was. At least from memory and that is admittedly quite shaky I think there was originally a different Seaguard list but that didn't get included in the final book. I seem to remember being told that a couple of the lists was written over a weekend just before the deadline for the book.

Now that information could be wrong, or I could misremember it so take it with a bunch of salt, but the state of some of those lists certainly suggest it could be possible

Anyone remember the mini articles GW had on there own site about the different variant armies? The apparently biggest selling point for the Slayer lists was that you didn't had to think too much but just push your models forward and roll dice :p

Bloodknight
04-02-2010, 09:32
The campaign was supposed to represent great incrusion of chaos worshippers into Empire, ending in titanic siege of Middenheim. Background released after campaign such as WD articles or WFRPG books described siege repelled but city half-devasteted. In actual campaign unthinkable happened and Chaos forces never made it to city walls - there was no siege.

Yeah, I remember that the Dogs of War players (I remember them best because I played as one in that campaign) held the city of Bohsenfels till the end when Gav just decided it should be destroyed out of nowhere just to fast-forward the Tzeentchian warhost to Middenheim's city walls although the games played would have never allowed this (well, at least he had the Tzeentchian warlord beheaded for his failure and replaced in the fluff). This basically happened to most other cities, too, because else Chaos would have just been repelled at the border.

Grimmeth
04-02-2010, 09:55
I seem to remember there was something written about Offence being harder than Defence in this situation, and the studio simply hadn't taken this into account - therefor, especially at the 'siege point' if an area was being hit really hard one day the defenders (Order) could just all put their results against that area and push it back again.
Obviously this screwed with the idea of Chaos starting this whole unstoppable siege thing.

Condottiere
04-02-2010, 10:02
I'd think the Vampire counts/Tomb kings would tend to disagree.They're not dead yet, just were.

ashc
04-02-2010, 10:14
The support during it was pretty good, It was poorly organised/planned in the long run in regards to what would happen if certain armies did well/badly, leading to the fiasco of an ending that was written.

Surprising considering they made the 40k campaigns run *fairly* smoothly.

*Grimgor Ironhide charges in to thread to bash ashc around the head a few times, then runs off*

GRIMGOR!!!!!! :mad:

Greymarch
05-02-2010, 00:49
I remember they kept going on about how Deathmaster Sniktch is going to do something awesome, just wait for it guys! And as the campaign went on... nothing. Some vague rumours of a skaven nuke but no info. But then at the end, after all the climatic (!) battles were over Valten gets killed in his sleep, and a weeping blade is left behind. Thanks guys!

willowdark
05-02-2010, 01:01
That's weird. I'd bet that if it hadn't been hyped, and just went down that way, it would be remembered as a great ending.

Imagine the epilogue, or even just a post-climax chapter, of any book where an assassin steals into the night to kill the hero in his sleep, leaving a signature like that and the world to put itself back together in his wake.

Sound like a great ending, if it wasn't expected.

Sir_Turalyon
05-02-2010, 01:55
I seem to remember there was something written about Offence being harder than Defence in this situation, and the studio simply hadn't taken this into account


As far as I remember Order players were just better coordinated and Orcs players sided with them for most of campaign.

Sygerrik
05-02-2010, 02:38
That's weird. I'd bet that if it hadn't been hyped, and just went down that way, it would be remembered as a great ending.

Imagine the epilogue, or even just a post-climax chapter, of any book where an assassin steals into the night to kill the hero in his sleep, leaving a signature like that and the world to put itself back together in his wake.

Sound like a great ending, if it wasn't expected.

Not really. It was so spiteful. The campaign was OVER, all of the heroes and their armies had gone home, and the war was finished. Oh, and PS, the best Empire hero is dead. The end.

It's too bad; Valten was awesome and I would have loved to see him in the 7th edition Empire book. But nope, away he goes.

sigur
05-02-2010, 02:49
While I wasn't directly involved in the campaign, I followed it for some time.

The basic problem seems to be (apart from shoddy planning/organisation) that the GW dudes in charge should EITHER make the whole background really dependant on the players (which would be like shooting the background and, following that, the whole game in the foot, kicking it's knee and stabbing it in the back) or just do what they planned to all along and just let players do smaller battles, fight for single provinces which later get deus ex machina'ed back into the original shape again afterwards and don't pretend that people may have an impact on the bigger picture.

It's exciting and great if communities of players get organized and stuff but GW really should stay away from trying to make campaigns really siginficant to the world.

Maoriboy007
05-02-2010, 03:15
The problem I had was that valten was outmatched by archaon in every way. Basically he woiuld get knocked down by archaon until he failed a break or "I'll get back up again" Ld test and died.
If I where Archaon, I would have sent someone with the chaos runeshield to keep VAlten occupied while I went and killed eberyone else.

TheDarkDuke
05-02-2010, 03:41
From what I remember the two problems in terms of the game play was that the combined army lists of the Empire, High Elf, Dwarf and Bres were simply far superior to those of the Cult, Skaven, Vampire and Chaos. Add in that the Orc and Goblin players didn't really follow through with the fluff established at the onset (with the Empire distracted they decided to take advantage while at the same looking for some good fights) they basically just went on a "where are those chaos fellas, they look like more fun to stomp on" causing the Order side to focus just on the North part of the campaign.

As for the fluff. Only two parts were not well received at the conclusion. Grimgor comes out of nowhere and stomps to crap out of Chaos' chosen champion, then says well that wasn't hard and walks away... Then a massive untouched VC army is knocking at the door at about a 25% standing Empire army, Teclis and less then 500 swordmasters. Someone goes to Mannfred "BOO!" and he jumps and says I will get you next time...

Now the big "well what about this" part of the fluff was the whole what about the Skaven doomsday device. They mentioned Skaven were working on something big, at the end they stated it was a doomsday device, and then there was no follow up.

Now the problem don't like fluff wise is they have turn the clock back. Not even to the point of "status quo" but the SoC has not happened in ever army book since released, thus causing a "why did we even bother with the campaign" mentality.

Personally I think all of the Army lists were nicely thought out, but not balancing at all. Dwarves could be anything in combat, but could never break. Elves that could literally take out several full units before the game started with ranged attacks. At a time when Bret were already a top tier army, they gained the ability to field even cheaper core knights. Daemons were costed correctly but would go "pop" quicker then instant pop corn. The magic items added were considerably more useful and powerful for cheaper then we would find in any army book.

On the topic of the Deathmaster. Never was it stated he killed Valten. At best it was hinted at that a Skaven assassin killed Valten in his sleep. Now I am not 100% on this next part, but I am pretty darn sure there was no weeping blade left behind. On top of that I believe the hint of Valten being killed was he was already mortally wounded and had actually disappeared while sleeping, not even a confirmed death. I will have to pull out WD300 and re-read it to be sure.

Cacodemon
05-02-2010, 09:23
I'd really like Gav to come on to this topic and respond.

All in all, Storm of Chaos was an attempt to sell model lines that were hardly selling:
- Metal Dwarf Slayers, no-one used them in the Dwarf armies so make them an army of their own with stupid Doomseekers and the rather cool Goblin Hewer
- Metal Skaven Assassins, the weakest character choice of the old Skaven book, they got Clan Eshin Triad and Assassin General.
- Dark Elves, the weakest army of 6th edition (pre-revision). Give them Chaos Daemons and they will sell better :wtf:
- High Elves, Seaguard were the weakest core choice, so they made an army around them, and sell those metal Shadow Warriors at the same, why not

snurl
05-02-2010, 09:41
Their was some more info about the Skaven doomsday device, if you dug around for it. They had built a huge bomb underneath Middenheim, but it failed to explode.

In the beginning of the SoC book, it says that the army lists contained inside are Official. For GW to turnabout and say later on "well, now they are not" was bad form. I knew several players who remodeled their armies or started new ones just because of that book, myself included - I built up a Slayer army, and now it just sits there.

Condottiere
05-02-2010, 09:56
GW ran into the Law of Unintended Consequences, what they had planned to happen went out of control the moment they allowed a certain random element, the players, into the equation.

While results can be massaged, and hurdles placed to make certain outcomes unlikely, just throwing out or ignoring what actually happened cheapened the entire undertaking.

ashc
05-02-2010, 10:26
Basically they took on more than they could stomach with it; essentially the campaign was too big and important for it to really be pulled off properly.

Fantasy's best campaign was Albion, all the armies arrived, fought for territory, plenty of funky scenarios and at the end of the day the results didn't matter but it was still a heck of a lot of fun.

Jedi152
05-02-2010, 10:28
They even tried to weight it to the side of chaos (Horde of Archaon special rules: You get double the points of the opponent...), and it still went belly up! :D

UberBeast
05-02-2010, 17:00
Ah, the cult of slannesh. I remember them. So much better than normal dark elves. Everyone got cool army list variants... except the empire. Their's sucked.

Ah Middenheim list with unique units and character models released?

Hrokka `Eadsplitter
05-02-2010, 17:18
As I read at some sight, explaining Grimgors bashing of da chaosdude: The attackers and the defenders were evenly matched, both sides were winning and losing, but neither side could win, but then da orcz kame to town, since they'd been kickin' the a$$es of both sides...

But the campaign really brought some good models: Teutogen Guard, Valten - the extreme owned-by-giant-rat-assassin dude, and those standard bearers that Grimgors 'ardboyz used(Some kind of statue of Mork(Or possibly Gork))

Greymarch
05-02-2010, 18:10
Their was some more info about the Skaven doomsday device, if you dug around for it. They had built a huge bomb underneath Middenheim, but it failed to explode.

I thought it went off, but only partially so only destroyed the skaven lairs under the city.

Souppilgrim
05-02-2010, 18:30
In the beginning of the SoC book, it says that the army lists contained inside are Official. For GW to turnabout and say later on "well, now they are not" was bad form. I knew several players who remodeled their armies or started new ones just because of that book, myself included - I built up a Slayer army, and now it just sits there.

That is the worst offense of GW. They wasted a lot of peoples time and money. If they want to be static and have a never changing world is one thing.

GodSlayer
05-02-2010, 18:54
Add in that the Orc and Goblin players didn't really follow through with the fluff established at the onset (with the Empire distracted they decided to take advantage while at the same looking for some good fights) they basically just went on a "where are those chaos fellas, they look like more fun to stomp on" causing the Order side to focus just on the North part of the campaign.

Well that explains why 7th edition OnG are this way...:shifty:
Listen to GW or else...

Oguleth
05-02-2010, 20:52
Did anything good actually come out of it? I can't say I followed the fluff much (except I have noticed there is a lack of mention in the new WHFRP edition, from what I have seen), but the lists in it was horribad - call it official and then change their minds.

I remember lots of people switching lists back then, and got burned out of the whole game.. Come to think of it, I haven't actually played much FB since it started :shifty: