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TeDasCuen
04-02-2010, 12:03
Hi all!

I have a doubt about armies and tournaments. My problem is that I want to start a new army, Space Marines, but I like the Black Templars (but I'm waiting codex of 5th) and I want to play sometimes like a generic Astartes Chapter (Space Marines Codex 5th) and sometimes like a Black Templar Army (Black Templars Codex of 4th).

Could I use the same Space Marines models and vehicles with Black Templars colours, emblems, etc. To play tournaments like a generic Astartes Chapter and like a Black Templars Army? In different tournaments, of course.

Thanks in advance.

grissom2006
04-02-2010, 12:08
Never a good idea asking us about what you can and can't do in a Tournie they have their own rules and it's down to the people running it. We could say yes it's all fine and dandy to do so and they then turned round and give a big fat NO. If you want to know if it's ok in a tournie you need to ask the people who are running the event not the warseer members.

Jack5h1t
04-02-2010, 12:14
Paint up your marines as black templars, game using the standard SM rules until the new BT 'dex comes out.

Is the old BT 'dex that bad? I know about the points differences and vehicle options are all old 4th, but are they still competetive with the 4th ed 'dex?

Thud
04-02-2010, 12:25
"Well, at least my army is painted."

That's what you say when people start whining about your Space Marines being painted the wrong colour.

TeDasCuen
04-02-2010, 12:27
Well it's true that each tournement has its own rules, but I'm asking your oppinion by your gaming experience (I started to play really recently to 40k).

The Space Marine Codex and "How to paint Space Marines" show you that you can create your own Astartes Chapter: your colours, emblemes, etc. Then, I can choose the same colours and emblemes than the Black Templars and say "they are Black Knights and aren't Black Templars".

I'm thinking to do it because using the same colour scheme and same emblemes I'll have the 80 or 90% of models to play like generic Astartes and like Black Templars (I like both). I mean, why buy 20 Space Marines to paint 10 as Black Templars and to paint 10 as Ultramarines if I can to have 20 with same colour scheme to play like 2 different codexs?

Obviously, I'll should to buy specific models for one and other codexs, in example an Emperor's Champion for Black Templars or heavy weapons options or vehicles for generic Astartes.

Spider-pope
04-02-2010, 12:49
Hi all!

I have a doubt about armies and tournaments. My problem is that I want to start a new army, Space Marines, but I like the Black Templars (but I'm waiting codex of 5th) and I want to play sometimes like a generic Astartes Chapter (Space Marines Codex 5th) and sometimes like a Black Templar Army (Black Templars Codex of 4th).

Could I use the same Space Marines models and vehicles with Black Templars colours, emblems, etc. To play tournaments like a generic Astartes Chapter and like a Black Templars Army? In different tournaments, of course.

Thanks in advance.

As long as you make it clear they are Generic Marines rather than Black Templars, i would imagine most tournements would be ok with it. But like others said its best to check with the organisers rather than rely on the Interwebs to tell you its alright to use.
If any players give you grief about the colour scheme, then just point out that clearly your army belongs to the Ebon Templars chapter and any similarities with the Black Templars are purely coincidental. ;)

Sir_Turalyon
04-02-2010, 13:10
My experience is hardly reliable, but after seeing Dark Angles Green Space Wolves, Blood Red Space Wolves, Khornite Space Wolves and Boltgun Metal Space Wolves fighting each other on last tournament I attended i doubt you would have problem with your Black Ultramarines there.

Besides, Black Templars are another 3rd edition variant SM list like Salamanders or Iron Hands. Except their mini-list got so out of control GW hastily gave them codex to get rid of it.

Mojaco
04-02-2010, 13:22
Black Templars have decent rules, right? Preffered enemy is better than ever, their land raider upgrade that nerfs meltaguns is gold, they're superquick with move + run + extra move due to casualties... I don't know anything else of the top of my head :)

They're hurt by powerfists not sitting on sergeants (1 attack) and by not getting super duper storm shields, but it's not that bad.

Bunnahabhain
04-02-2010, 13:31
Marines are marines are marines, regardless of codex or paint scheme. Very unlikely to have any problems, so long as your opponents can tell which units are which...

pookie
04-02-2010, 14:15
there is nothing majorily wrong with the current BT Dex, see Lord Malornes tactic thread if you think so, as it dispells a lot of whats not actually wrong with the Dex.

bonus is, that you will not have to do any major converstions/add too much stuff should/when we get our 5th Ed Dex.

wazatdingder
04-02-2010, 14:19
Black Templars have decent rules, right? Preffered enemy is better than ever, their land raider upgrade that nerfs meltaguns is gold, they're superquick with move + run + extra move due to casualties... I don't know anything else of the top of my head

I agree.

What do you have against templars? I know a lot of marine players who are sitting on the same fence and many of them lean toward the templars, especially for tournies.

Why don't you let us know your specific issues? It may be more helpful.

TeDasCuen
04-02-2010, 14:48
I'm not saying that I don't like the Black Templars or that I don't like their current codex (although a new codex with new units, options and a lot of background and history would be great). On contrary, I like both Armies. Each one has its play style.

I just wanted to know if I could use the same models with the same colour scheme and emblems to play with both codexs.

The Black Templars are a great assault force and I like their background and history, on the other side generic Marines are very tactical and I like their rules and they have a lot of equip options.

Xelloss
04-02-2010, 15:03
At least until the next BT codex, BT players are always allowed to choose between the BT codex or the vanilla SM codex, at the condition you don't mix them.
But BT use a great number of marines armed with a boltpistol and a chainsword, so you will have a lot of minis you will not be able to use with the vanilla codex.

The 4th edition codex isn't top tier, but stills quite keep up with other armies, especially since we kept some 4th rules that people now begin to forget, that with preferred enemy we are very effective in melee while having the option of the mini-dev squad or the 2x assault canon terminator squad. But on the other hand our powerfists only have 1A, our vehicles are expensive (save the tri-las pred and dread/LS with assault canon) and our most defining rule, Righteous Zeal, is pretty useless now you can't assault others with it.

Grax
04-02-2010, 16:31
I agree that it depends on the tournament, but honestly, I can't see any judge, even the strictest, saying that a black templar can't count as a regular space marine. The reverse may not be true though, so I'd make them to look specifically like Black Tempar. Wind up not liking them? Then they're regular space marines.

Netfreakk
04-02-2010, 17:22
My friend did this exactly. He plays Black Templars, but also uses the codex:space marine with the special character Lysander. Everything is painted in the Black Templar specs, but several of his terminators and lysander models have the Imperial Fist that are painted black. He dubbed them "Black Fists" when he's playing codex:space marine. Fluff wise, black templars are a 2nd founding from the Imperial fists so why couldn't Lysander get them to support, right? More importantly, they look good and they're all WYSIWYG so I have no problem playing which ever one he wants to play them as. I doubt tournaments would have a problem as they're all WYSIWYG, but he hasn't gone to one with them.

pookie
04-02-2010, 17:32
the only real problem you have is that the BT units are not like normal Marine Sqds, an Example is the Crusade Sqds dont have a Sgt, and may be a mix of BP/CS or Bolters.

Some units maybe built to be as 'normal' as possible, but you may find that the SM Dex and the BT are fairly diffrent so when the 5th dex comes out, you have a lot of work to do to turn your marine force back into templars.

its doable.

macbeth
04-02-2010, 17:36
Well, you're not using them as Orks either...

Seriously, I played my BAs as vanilla marines for quite a long time before the WD list, and I was never frowned upon...

Now, a tournament is another problem...

Aegius
04-02-2010, 17:39
I'm going slightly off topic with this one. I don't go to tournaments and I only play games with a close knit group of friends. So my little rant here is based on friendly games, as tournament organisers will have their own ruling on the subjet.

I was the same debate with a friend last night. I collect Eagle warriors, who are a codex chapter. My aim is to eventually have an entire chapter painted up. To do this I really need a bit of variety in my gaming, so I came up with the idea of using the Blood Angels codex (the new one, not the minidex) to represent the chapter's assault company. When I told my friend this, his reaction couldn't have been worse if I'd told him that I'd run over his dog.

His opinion is that I can't possibly use a non-codex codex to represent part of a codex chapter. I'd like you to bear in mind, that I'm the only player in my gaming group that has not only one, but 3 painted armies, and none of my armies could really be considered small either. He was happy to let me use a blood angels army if the figures were all built, but not painted, but not if they were painted. I was really taken back by his reaction. I could buy a bunch of models, leave them undercoated and use them as any marine chapter that I wanted, but my lovingly painted Eagle Warriors are destined to only ever be Eagle Warriors.

I would like to add, that I'm not taking any notice of his opinion, I've spent hundreds, if not thousands of pounds on my marine army, and I've lost count of the amount of time I've spent painting it, so I'll use it as I see fit.

Eulenspiegel
04-02-2010, 18:50
When I told my friend this, his reaction couldn't have been worse if I'd told him that I'd run over his dog.

It is envy, because you can change your codex at a whim between BA for assault, SW for first company, DA for recon company, SM for anything. Also, he now canīt possibly know what to expect.
Chances are, he canīt do it with his army, and so will adopt a firm standpoint of NO WAY.

You should take this serious. He DOES have a point.
Tell him that it gives him so much more "opponents" to choose from, and much more varied games. Also, you will have a much harder time adopting to your armyīs playstyle, which should give him an adavantage.

AFnord
04-02-2010, 19:35
If you really want to avoid any problems at tournaments, simply invent your own chapter, paint it whatever way you want, and then use whatever book you want. That way no-one will claim that you are using black templars as common marines, or vice versa. It's your own chapter, and you use the appropriate models. Of course you need to use the right models, or at least something that looks like them, and has the right wargear. No emperors champions with the wrong sword because you want him to be a basic force commander as well!

IcedAnimals
04-02-2010, 20:24
Since you can paint your army whatever color you want no tourny in their right mind would say "all black marines HAVE to use black templar codex"

You submit your list and as long as your models have the proper wargear on them your paint scheme does not matter.

pookie
05-02-2010, 16:24
I'm going slightly off topic with this one. I don't go to tournaments and I only play games with a close knit group of friends. So my little rant here is based on friendly games, as tournament organisers will have their own ruling on the subjet.

I was the same debate with a friend last night. I collect Eagle warriors, who are a codex chapter. My aim is to eventually have an entire chapter painted up. To do this I really need a bit of variety in my gaming, so I came up with the idea of using the Blood Angels codex (the new one, not the minidex) to represent the chapter's assault company. When I told my friend this, his reaction couldn't have been worse if I'd told him that I'd run over his dog.

His opinion is that I can't possibly use a non-codex codex to represent part of a codex chapter. I'd like you to bear in mind, that I'm the only player in my gaming group that has not only one, but 3 painted armies, and none of my armies could really be considered small either. He was happy to let me use a blood angels army if the figures were all built, but not painted, but not if they were painted. I was really taken back by his reaction. I could buy a bunch of models, leave them undercoated and use them as any marine chapter that I wanted, but my lovingly painted Eagle Warriors are destined to only ever be Eagle Warriors.

I would like to add, that I'm not taking any notice of his opinion, I've spent hundreds, if not thousands of pounds on my marine army, and I've lost count of the amount of time I've spent painting it, so I'll use it as I see fit.

Best not tell him that My Codex Chapter will use every single SM Dex going then eh :D

(obv not at the same time, but SM Dex will represent my Battle Company, the BA Dex as assault Company, the DA Dex for my 1st Company, and well im not sure bout the SW Dex yet :D )

Lordsaradain
05-02-2010, 16:58
If you have the correct models, I dont see how anyone could disagree because of how you paint them. There's nothing cheesy about it.

Thats like people disagreeing to play against blue-painted orcs because they are nt green, ridiculous.

Lord Malorne
05-02-2010, 17:12
Course you can use them as either, people do not care, the amount of times people ask if I am playing Black legion :rolleyes:...