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Azazyll
10-02-2010, 03:49
It's always bothered me: why do SM get the Rhino, when they are supposedly elite, and IG get the Chimera? The Chimera is by almost every standard the better transport tank. Better armor to the front, the multilaser, and HB/HF option, with more gun ports. The Rhino's only advantage is that it has a 15% chance of fixing itself, which implies to me that they're even easier to make, since they're so easy to fix. It just doesn't make sense to me. Why give the finest warriors of the Imperium the second best transport?

Does this ever bother anyone else? It's annoyed me for over a decade.

tuebor
10-02-2010, 03:57
Actually, the Rhino has a couple of advantages over the Chimera. It has better armored sides and doors on the sides. Of course, neither of those things would matter to the Guard since we don't try to get that close to the enemy anyway but for Marines those are both very good things.

Rydmend
10-02-2010, 04:01
There are many things in this game that don't fit with the fluff or simply fall out of line with what you would expect.

This is just one of those things.

Samus_aran115
10-02-2010, 04:11
It's always bothered me: why do SM get the Rhino, when they are supposedly elite, and IG get the Chimera? The Chimera is by almost every standard the better transport tank. Better armor to the front, the multilaser, and HB/HF option, with more gun ports. The Rhino's only advantage is that it has a 15% chance of fixing itself, which implies to me that they're even easier to make, since they're so easy to fix. It just doesn't make sense to me. Why give the finest warriors of the Imperium the second best transport?

Does this ever bother anyone else? It's annoyed me for over a decade.

Because the chimera is ugly DUH! Space marines get all the coolest looking stuff. The rhino is way more robust looking than the filthy chimera. Besides that, the IG need to draw attention to their vehicles so that their midget infantry can catch them off guard.

I like the rhino better as a transport, because I feel very little if it explodes, which I guess has to do with it being 35 points.lol.

Creeping Dementia
10-02-2010, 04:11
I think the way things are does fit the fluff.

IG are the Hammer. They present a strong front (front AV12), and are quite tough when they have massive support, like more chimeras, protecting their weaker flanks. Think of them as a sort of Phalanx, a rock hard army from the front, but weak if outmanuevered

SM and equivalents on the other hand are elites, using precision strikes, hitting flanks, and being flexable. You think they want to be worried about directional angles when hitting a vulnerable spot? They can't worry about forming a front wall of Rhinos because the numbers just aren't there, they need side protection. Rhinos have the flexablity for this sort of warfare IMO, they don't crush with an armored wall, rather, they independently hit vulnerable spots.

borginator
10-02-2010, 04:14
Rhino
Pros
-AV11 on sides
-15% chance to repair itself
-Cheap points wise
-3 Access points
Cons
-Lack of weapons


Chimera
Pros
-AV 12 on front
-2 Heavy weapons
Cons
-AV10 on sides
-Only one rear access point.


Edit: Well I'm retarded, for some reason I thought Chimera was a 'fast' vehicle. As the posters below have said, they're definitely not fast.

tuebor
10-02-2010, 04:16
Rhino
Pros
-AV11 on sides
-15% chance to repair itself
-Cheap points wise
-3 Access points
Cons
-Lack of weapons
-Classified as a tank, ie can only move a max of 12"

Chimera
Pros
-AV 12 on front
-'Fast' vehicle, can move a max of 18"
-2 Heavy weapons
Cons
-AV10 on sides
-Only one rear access point.

It is odd that the elite force that excel in close combat have such a slow vehicle. The Chimera moving flat out can cover more distance than a Rhino. Heck, Chimeras are more effective than buying carapace armor for your unit. However, I find that they are time bombs for the guard on the inside.

The Chimera isn't fast, only the Hellhound variants are.

senorcardgage
10-02-2010, 04:33
yeah, the cimeras are definitely not fast.

starlight
10-02-2010, 04:36
It's always bothered me: why do SM get the Rhino, when they are supposedly elite, and IG get the Chimera? The Chimera is by almost every standard the better transport tank. Better armor to the front, the multilaser, and HB/HF option, with more gun ports. The Rhino's only advantage is that it has a 15% chance of fixing itself, which implies to me that they're even easier to make, since they're so easy to fix. It just doesn't make sense to me. Why give the finest warriors of the Imperium the second best transport?

Does this ever bother anyone else? It's annoyed me for over a decade.

If it's bothered you for that long, then you should have dropped in on any of the many dozens of times this has been discussed before... :p

They are different because they (and their armies) do very different things.

The Rhino is an APC (Armoured Personnel Carrier) which is designed to get their troops into battle. The Chimera (like the Razorback) is an IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle) which is designed to support troops during battle.

Rhinos (and Drop Pods) are delivery systems, whereas the Chimera are fighting vehicles.


...and the *best* transport (in the Imperium at least) is the Land Raider... :p

ehlijen
10-02-2010, 04:39
My understanding is that the rhino is meant to be smaller and lighter than the chimera, facilitating easier airborne transport via thunderhawks. Marines put a lot more stock into being able to deploy from and retreate into orbit quickly then they put into long distance ground road trips.

vladsimpaler
10-02-2010, 04:42
I think that the Imperial Guard should get their Rhinos, Preds, and Land Raiders back. :)

MetalGecko23
10-02-2010, 04:42
They are different because they (and their armies) do very different things.

The Rhino is an APC (Armoured Personnel Carrier) which is designed to get their troops into battle. The Chimera (like the Razorback) is an IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle) which is designed to support troops during battle.

Rhinos (and Drop Pods) are delivery systems, whereas the Chimera are fighting vehicles.


...and the *best* transport (in the Imperium at least) is the Land Raider...
yah! What he said.

Tzeentch Loyalist
10-02-2010, 04:49
I think that the Imperial Guard should get their Rhinos, Preds, and Land Raiders back. :)

And space wolves get back the leman russ

DvlDog
10-02-2010, 08:24
I remember this conversation so many times....
Another con of the Chimera is that not only is the side armour 10, it has a much bigger arc of side armour. Being as long and narrow as it is.

DoctorDanny
10-02-2010, 08:31
At 35 pts I wouldn't mind using Rhino's in my guard army. Just don't take away my Chimera's. For only 20 pts more they are the *REAL* bargain of the century.

I'd like to add that the ability to fire 5 models from the top hatch and not count as open topped is the icing on the cake.

Schismotive
10-02-2010, 08:36
Rhinos carry space marines. What more could you want?

EmperorEternalXIX
10-02-2010, 08:40
I will save a lot of time and outline how this thread is going to go: The IG guys are going to argue that the Chimera is the easiest vehicle in the game to kill and that it has no real advantages because their awful side armor, which they apparently almost always get hit on.

Then you will be told that the Rhino's side armor of 11 makes it the best APC in the game, and that you overlook the incredible option of an added 10-point storm bolter to make "mobile and killy."

The fact that an entire football team's first and second strings could fire bullet passes out of the back of a Chimera will be ignored, as will the fact that it has more range, firepower, troop capacity, and a bigger firing point availability.

Invariably someone will mention the Rhino's repair ability. Seeing this ability actually happen in a game is sort of like seeing Bigfoot, so it's usually half-joking.

Someone will probably bring up the Razorback and how ridiculously overcosted all its variants are while trying to argue that having a TL HB turret is somehow worth the points when it horribly reduces carriage capacity and fire point usage -- two negatives the Chimera doesn't have to face at all no matter it's layout (whether it has one or three weapons).

Someone will get frustrated and say that the Imperial Guard need a powerful and capable transport like the Chimera en masse, because they have no other viable options (because there is no other higher-armored, faster, troop-carrying vehicle with heavy long range armament in the codex, of course...).

About this time someone will bring up the amazing advantage of the Rhino's entry points and will talk about how great the vehicle is when you do a completely non-immersive, meta-game-motivated thing like buy one for a squad you aren't going to ride in it (like a Dev squad) and use it as "mobile cover."

Some of these things may have already happened, of course...

In all seriousness, I am more upset about the Razorback than the Rhino. The Razor is an utter **** of a vehicle and a ghastly points sink. No variant of it is worth 70+ points while there are 65-point Chimera variants running around outshooting them. There is no justification for how good the new Chimera is, it is superior to the Rhino and Razorback in every way except access points, tank hunting (and that's with a 35pt lascannon), and side armor, all of which are negligible much of the time in the face of the Chimera's strengths. They could have at least made it count as open topped when having 376 guys firing their plasma guns from the roof...

It was very different when the Chimera was around ~100 points for virtually the same vehicle with less useful fire point options. We all knew a price drop was coming, but to cut the cost in half was really a shock to most of us...up here in Boston even some of our guard players think it was a ridiculous cut.

As far as the OP's sentiment goes, I have been annoyed with Space Marine vehicular mediocrity since the dawn of my entry in the game for just this kind of reason.

Xelloss
10-02-2010, 08:54
Because the chimera is ugly DUH!
Well, not as ugly as the Leman Russ. I'm not a big fan of "WWI in space !" He would have been so much better with its turrel put backward... ⌐⌐
On the other hand, I find the Salamander version quite cool. Too bad it isn't in the IG codex.

Giganthrax
10-02-2010, 09:45
The reason marines don't have chimeras is because marines aren't supposed to excel as a long-range shooty army. Their theme has them fighting mostly in rapid fire range and in close combat. Hence, their main transport is extremely cheap and virtually immune to small arms fire.

This is the same reason razorbacks have a small transport capacity - having access to long-range shooty transports would only promote gunline mentality, which goes against the entire bolter, chainsword, and power armor philosophy of space marines. It's the same reason why lascannons are so expensive for marines, and why it's so much easier to get tons of melta, flamer and plasma rather then tons of missile launchers, plasma cannons, or lascannons.

IG, on the other hand, are supposed to have lots of shooting so as to be very strong from long range, but weak up close. Hence, their primary transport is also a long-range shooting platform that has strong frontal armor to better survive long-range shooting, but weak side armor which makes it vulnerable to small arms shooting. It has high transport capacity and access to lots of weaponry because it's supposed to contribute to mobile gunline theme.





Oh and, razorbacks are great transports for support units such as devastators, long fangs, objective-camping tactical squads, command squads, etc.

Epicenter
10-02-2010, 10:05
The Rhino is a battle-taxi. It's (in the fluff) a reasonably reliable, reasonably durable box for Space Marines to ride to get into combat. The Rhino isn't supposed to fight. It's supposed to transport Marines. It does this cheaply and effectively. The Marines are the fighting part of this pairing. The Marines who have to debark from the Rhino to fight are no slouches once they're out of their transport - Space Marines are dangerous, tough, and heavily armed. It's durability is modeled in the game with the Repair rule. Even if the Rhino suffers a catastrophic failure (explosion), chances are good that all of the Space Marines inside will survive. The lack of weapons actually works for Space Marines in a perverse sense - it doesn't encourage you to dwadle, but to get Rhinos to their destination ASAP.

The Chimera is, as mentioned above, a fighting vehicle. In the latest incarnation of the IG, it's basically a rolling pillbox, designed to give Imperial Guard troops a higher effective Toughness and Armor Save without actually giving them one. Imperial Guardsmen are barely serviceable troops once out of their Chimera. Armed with basically non-existent standard weapons, ineffective armor and poor Toughness. To augment the IG's poor Ballistic Skill and lasguns (rofl) the Chimera is considerably better armed and is a much more even partner in the Chimera/IG pairing than the Rhino/Marine pairing. And remember: If a Chimera explodes, not many of the Guardsmen inside are likely to survive. Really, the only thing that the Chimera has that the Rhino lacks is that I think the Rhino should have the Amphibious rule (as should the Land Raider).

However, I do agree about the Razorback. It's excessive for what it does. Space Marines have to pay EXTRA to replace Heavy Bolters with Heavy Flamers? While twin-linked multimeltas in the turret might require an additional point cost, I think Heavy Flamers basically even out with Heavy Bolters when one considers how much earlier you can start plinking away with HBs over HFs.

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
10-02-2010, 10:08
The cut of price of the Chimera IS upseting. My secondary army is IG, and I was almost stunned when I saw how cheap Chimeras were.
Still, I only use two, since I prefer the Light Infantry with heavy weapons fire support concept.
I think no transport is "broken" or very bad per se, it all depends of what you're supposed to do with them.

SM have Drop pods to fall on the rear or in the middle of the enemy, Rhinos are just here to bring the devastators squads and the the relief squads.
IG have Chimeras to re-inforce its mobilty and to give their squads a dedicated support fire, different from the heavy weapons which received their orders from the company commanding officer.
If IG had a transport fitting the same role as Rhinos, it will be trucks. (And I wanted we had! 10/10/10, not even fast, open vehicles, with an heavy stubber and roughly 30 pts worth... Mr GW, if you're reading this, please...)
So, yes, Rhinos aren't very good. But I don't think they're supposed to be sent in the heart of the battle. Rather on its borders.

Bloodknight
10-02-2010, 10:37
The Rhino's main advantage are the 3 exit hatches and evenly spread armour.
I would love Rhinos for my IG veteran assault squads because you can jump out on 3 sides without exposing the weakest side of the tank (keeping it alive longer so you can use it as mobile cover) or having to run around it while also saving 20 points.

The Chimera's main advantages are its firepower and the extra fire points, its main weaknesses are the narrow front armour angle/wide side armour angle and the single hatch in the back.

Of course the troops inside make a lot of difference, too. When a Rhino explodes, a squad of 10 SM will likely lose under 20% of the unit (IG units lose roughly 40%), won't have to take a panic check most of the time (the Guard has to test already with a roughly 30% chance of failure, which is higher than the occasional SM's test on LD9) or suffer less from the consequences (ATSKNF) and are more likely to pass the pinning check.


My secondary army is IG, and I was almost stunned when I saw how cheap Chimeras were.

Chimeras were pretty bad at 85 points in the last codex, they went down 35% from the last to the current one.

Rhinos went down to 35 points between codixes, which is a 30% drop.


And I wanted we had! 10/10/10, not even fast, open vehicles, with an heavy stubber and roughly 30 pts worth... Mr GW, if you're reading this, please...

Why would you field such a thing? It would be a horrible deathtrap like DE Raiders or Ork Trukks without the advantages (Ramshackle Table/Antigrav movement, fast).

Archangel_Ruined
10-02-2010, 10:47
There is a rhino I rate quite highly, unfortunately it's with the spikey buggers. Daemonically possessed rhinos with a havoc launcher are quite pricey but you have no option but to destroy the damn things. The drop in BS isn't too bad either, both weapons are twin linked and both can fire on the move. That and the two special weapons that will invariably be in the back somewhere can fire too (glad the FAQ cleared that one up...). For vanilla marines you're left with little option other than keeping them as cheap as possible and fielding them in numbers. Most upgrades don't make it more effective and will only annoy you more when it gets popped. Razor backs are too rich for my blood, longfangs are the only squad I can see the point of taking them for. Chimeras, on the other hand, are just seven kinds of awesome. They're less vulnerable early in the game due to AV12 frontage, everyone and his mate gets to fire out the top and for 65pts they can crank out 9 S4+ shots a turn. I can't imagine the player who would be despicable enough to spam veterans with grenade launchers and heavy bolter/autocannons with HB/HB/HS chimeras as the heart of a gunline, I'm glad that kind of player isn't common... All that mid strength AP4 firepower from a troop choice, no, chimeras aren't on a par with rhinos.

Still, you can always forget about rhinos altogether and field drop pods. It's always funny putting dreadnoughts and grey hunters behind an opponents guns.

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
10-02-2010, 11:06
Why would you field such a thing? It would be a horrible deathtrap like DE Raiders or Ork Trukks without the advantages (Ramshackle Table/Antigrav movement, fast).

For three reasons:
Firstly, and mainly, because when you read novels concerning the IG (Gaunt's saga), featuring a Light Infantry Regiment, that's what they use. And I find the idea not too unrealist.
Secondly, because they aren't death traps (even if they explode: F3 vs End3 gives 50% wounded, then save for 1/3, gives 33% of losses, compared to Chimeras F4 vs End3, 66%, then save for 1/3, 44% of losses) and would allow reployement of your troops at a cheaper price than Chimeras.
Thirdly, because when you really have to delay an enemy unit, the better way to do it is to assault it, and have your truck blocking the way in the same time. That's what an open truck can do.
I know, it wouldn't be a very competitive transport. But since I play only for the fun...

Bloodknight
10-02-2010, 11:27
33% of losses, compared to Chimeras F4 vs End3, 66%, then save for 1/3, 44% of losses

Correct. But you'd also have to take into account that an open topped vehicle blows up twice as often as a closed topped (unless it's an AP1 weapon, then 4-6 blows up open topped vehicles and 5-6 blows up enclosed vehicles, only a 50% increase) and that it's far easier to get several penetrating hits vs an AV10 front vehicle than an AV12 front.

I'm not sure if I really wanted a vehicle that's less than 50% less expensive, but makes my units inside take 50% more panic and pinning checks and gets more often into the situation of being in danger of blowing up due to the weak armour.

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
10-02-2010, 11:37
I'm not sure if I really wanted a vehicle that's less than 50% less expensive, but makes my units inside take 50% more panic and pinning checks and gets more often into the situation of being in danger of blowing up due to the weak armour.

You're right, from top to bottom.
But I think to my Guardsmen as human beings, and human beings do sometimes panick in the middle of battles. With good reasons!
As I wrote, I'm a player, not a competitor, and the way the tides of battle can change, the difficulties a commanding officer have to overcome to win a battle with mere humans in the 40K universe interest me far more than the actual outcome of the battle.
Of course, I try to win. But if I have to retreat... Well, I guess the Commissariat certainly knows my name by heart!

Bloodknight
10-02-2010, 11:41
I understand that; for similar reasons I think that the Basilisk has no place on the battlefield (and that's without looking at its lacklustre rules) :).

But then I think that trucks don't have a job on the battlefield either, they're just there to transport the troops to the front and then rush off, being unarmoured and all.

There's a reason why troops disembark from trucks as quickly as possible in real life: it's really easy to get killed in one.
Many simulations will award extra damage to infantry in a truck that gets shot at because there's no cover and they're all bunched up.

Giganthrax
10-02-2010, 11:45
However, I do agree about the Razorback. It's excessive for what it does. Space Marines have to pay EXTRA to replace Heavy Bolters with Heavy Flamers? While twin-linked multimeltas in the turret might require an additional point cost, I think Heavy Flamers basically even out with Heavy Bolters when one considers how much earlier you can start plinking away with HBs over HFs.
Why would you want to change the basic razorback anyway? Standard HB razor is 40 pts, and it works great for its points.

Vaktathi
10-02-2010, 12:24
As far as the OP's sentiment goes, I have been annoyed with Space Marine vehicular mediocrity since the dawn of my entry in the game for just this kind of reason. Space Marines are not a tank army. They never have been and never will be. They can do mechanized infantry very well, but if you want an armored phalanx, Imperial Guard have always been the army that has been billed as such since 2nd edition.

Space Marine vehicles are there to support and transport, the Space Marines actually do the vast majority of the work. If their tanks were all amazing, there would be no point to SM's in the first place. Rhino's, for what they are, are great, they are a small fraction of the cost of the squad they are transporting and only need live to turn 2 or 3 and then can die without regret (whereas Chimeras cost as much as the squad they transport and hurt if you lose them at any point). Razorback option costs are out of whack yes (particularly the Heavy Flamer), but part of that, as has been pointed out, is to avoid people playing SM's like one would play Imperial Guard. Predators could use some work but that's more a result of the defensive weapons rules than anything else. Other than that SM vehicles are pretty ok.


But then I think that trucks don't have a job on the battlefield either, they're just there to transport the troops to the front and then rush off, being unarmoured and all. Indeed. Even armies that have or still do use trucks, the infantry disembark a ways away from the combat unless they are ambushed, and get to the front on foot the last stretch, they don't bring the trucks. Trucks die and are big targets. I don't see what use IG would really derive from trucks either? We don't really need a cheaper transport, or an assault transport. All it would do is mean a much easier killed vehicle, with no real addition to the army. I'd rather see Salamanders and Quad Launchers.

Lord Cook
10-02-2010, 13:14
It's always bothered me: why do SM get the Rhino, when they are supposedly elite, and IG get the Chimera? The Chimera is by almost every standard the better transport tank.

No, the Chimera is a better tank for Imperial Guard. Think about it.

Give Space Marines a Chimera and what do you do with it? You spend too much on a full squad of Marines to just sit back and shoot with the Chimera's heavy weapons. It would be a waste and you'd be annihilated at range. Similarly, the Marines themselves have too little firepower to make it worth sitting inside and shooting out the top. One special weapon and one heavy? Especially for the cost. You're paying a fortune for power armour, great leadership with ATSKNF, 4's across the stats and bolters and you want to castle up inside a transport?

As soon as you advance with the Chimera a Space Marine army wouldn't be able to afford enough of them for decent mutual support, so you're exposing side armour more frequently than Guard would. If you move 12" you can't shoot out or use your heavy weapons. The only way to disembark your Marines so as to shoot with a whole squad would be to turn the Chimera around first, pointing rear-end towards the enemy. Coincidentally, exactly what Guard have to do when they need to get troops forward as quickly as possible.

A Chimera would be wasted on Marines. You'd never be able to use it as well as the Guard does, because it just doesn't mesh with your abilities. The exception is something like Devastators of course, but it's an exception.


I have been annoyed with Space Marine vehicular mediocrity since the dawn of my entry in the game for just this kind of reason.

You're annoyed that a heavy infantry army whose vehicles specialise in transportation and light support have inferior vehicles to a tank-based army? Isn't that the whole idea? :eyebrows:

Space Marine vehicles are still effective for the points. Rhinos are well worth 30 to 35 points, and Razorbacks seem decent at 40.

As for Chimeras, they were 85 before, and ridiculously overcosted. At 60 or so they would be fine now, and we have them at 55. The balancing factor (and the reason why Chimera-heavy armies don't work very well) is that you need so many of them that it screws you over in Kill Point missions. Let's not forget that every time a Chimera explodes we lose more than 40% of the squad inside and have to take both a morale and a pinning check on Ld8, with no auto-rally. Every time you want to disembark towards the enemy (say for melta-gunning a vehicle) you have to turn the Chimera around, exposing all the Av10 rear and sides. Chimeras have two heavy weapons, but rarely get a chance to fire more than one. Looking at the Rhino/Chimera comparison on paper is completely different to considering them in a game.

Fixer
10-02-2010, 13:44
An important fluff reason for Rhinos is the number of Crew.

A Rhino only requires one driver who can also fire the weapon mount. A Chimera requires 3. Marines are too valuable a resource to sit nursing a single weapon mount or sitting in the command chair of a tank when they could be putting their fist through the skull of some xenos scum.

tuebor
10-02-2010, 13:46
The balancing factor (and the reason why Chimera-heavy armies don't work very well) is that you need so many of them that it screws you over in Kill Point missions.

Another issue I've had with my mechanized IG is that with 8 Chimeras and another 3-6 vehicles I often have traffic issues where there simply isn't enough room to maneuver them all.

Fixer
10-02-2010, 13:50
And of course, the issue with the lead model in your column getting immobilised and making it impossible to drive past.

Bloodknight
10-02-2010, 14:09
Chimeras have two heavy weapons, but rarely get a chance to fire more than one.

I think the defensive weapon change in combination with the cheaper Chimera made the Multilaser/Heavy Flamer Chimera a lot more popular. In 4th edition I saw and used a lot more HBs and stubbers on Chimeras because they could fire all that on the move. But then, at 103 points (stubber, EA, Smoke) they needed it.

Purge the Heretic
10-02-2010, 15:06
Weren't rhinos a fast vehicle in earlier editions?

Bloodknight
10-02-2010, 15:15
No. Except for Blood Angels with their overcharged Rhinos.

During the time it could run over 20" (2nd edition), a Leman Russ could do so, too, and Jetbikes went in excess of 30" ;)

Grand Master Raziel
10-02-2010, 15:58
Personally, I think the Chimera is about 5-10pts underpriced. The Rhino is about adequately priced, but Extra Armor is wildly overpriced, and there are no other options much worth taking. As for Razorbacks, there really is very little to be said for them. Giving up the top hatch and both transport capacity and the repair rule pretty much makes them complete losers, no matter what their price is. If Razorbacks could keep up with Rhinos while laying down fire, then they might be a realistic option, but they can't, which makes the heavy weapon turret worse-than-useless (because you sacrifice the top hatch for it), plus you lose transport capacity, so you're bringing weak squads close to opposing forces, where they'll be gobbled up in short order. As far as taking them as independent gun platforms, you'd be better off taking Attack Bikes or Land Speeders for around the same price, or invest the points in dakka Preds.

As far as the Rhino vs Chimera debate goes, the only thing about the Chimera I really grudge is the ability for 5 models to fire out of it. I'd love to be able to have 5 models fire out of the back of a Rhino! Of course, more than that, I'd like to have Tac Squads that could take 2 special weapons instead of a special and a heavy. Alternately, give some of the heavies an assault fire mode, like the suspensors on DWKT heavy bolters or PAGK psycannons. Allowing the multimelta to be fired with the same profile as a meltagun would be good, too. Basically, it would be nice to be able to take more advantage of the abililty the Rhino has. Giving it the same hatch-firing capability as the Chimera wouldn't make that much difference, when there are so few squads that can carry more than one special weapon anyway.

Also, what would go a long way towards evening up the disparity between IG and SM vehicles would be if SM vehicles (at least the Rhino-based ones) had the Agile rule from VDR. It would make thematic sense, it would make Razorbacks not-pointless, and it would stop Preds from being static gun platforms. It wouldn't step on anybody else's toes, either, because no other army has ground vehicles with that rule. Tau vehicles are close, but are skimmers.


This is the same reason razorbacks have a small transport capacity - having access to long-range shooty transports would only promote gunline mentality, which goes against the entire bolter, chainsword, and power armor philosophy of space marines.


I think there's damn small chance of that happening. When you have to pay 160pts on a squad that gets one heavy weapon, you know gunlining it is not going to be your optimum build.


Razorback option costs are out of whack yes (particularly the Heavy Flamer), but part of that, as has been pointed out, is to avoid people playing SM's like one would play Imperial Guard.

Space Marines lacking the cheap infantry awash with heavy weapons and the awesome tanks that can be fielded in squadrons, I think there's damn small chance of that.


You're paying a fortune for power armour, great leadership with ATSKNF, 4's across the stats and bolters and you want to castle up inside a transport?

Sometimes, yes. If there's a Monstrous Creature or a squad of something like Berserkers, Howling Banshees, or Genestealers within striking distance, I'd rather keep my squads of Marines in their tracks, force the aforementioned nasties to pop the track, then unload on the suckers who, having popped a transport instead of locking my squad in combat, is still subject to being shot at.

Vaktathi
10-02-2010, 16:10
Actually I'm starting to see more and more gunline builds, particularly with SW's, involving just buttloads of razorbacks and longfangs. Great against MEQ armies, eldar and the like, not so much against orks and IG, but they are out there and more common now, and they play just like IG armies for the most part. You can see plenty of them in the army list section. I've played against them a couple times now.


When you have to pay 160pts on a squad that gets one heavy weapon, you know gunlining it is not going to be your optimum build. You buy a small squad, stick it in a lasp/plas razorback, and call it good. 165pt Las/plas squad with an AV11 shell essentially. Not very horrific next to an IG unit that's 140pts for the chimera, lascannon, and PG given the much higher capabilities of the SM's in comparison to the IG squad.


Space Marines lacking the cheap infantry awash with heavy weapons and the awesome tanks that can be fielded in squadrons, I think there's damn small chance of that. Yes, because taking LRBT's in squadrons is currently all the rage :p That's basically wasting points and giving your enemy a pass on a lot of pain. The only vehicles you'll likely see squadroned are the griffon and hydra.

Likewise, IG HWT's are considered rather poor, and the infantry squads carry 1 BS3 heavy weapon, usually an autocannon. Not exactly "awash" with weapons. There's just a good number of such squads. A CSM havoc squad of 6 dudes with 4 AC's is going to be far scarier than a greater points value of 3 IS's with a total of 3 autocannons. It's the chimera that makes these units so scary.

Archangel_Ruined
10-02-2010, 16:31
Heavy weapons are best left to vehicles or vets in a mech guard list, so you'll get mobility or BS4. I'll also second there are some scary marine gun line builds out there. I can run three optimised longfang squads (2x4ML+LC and one with a mix of HB's and plascannons) that'll make most players think twice, especially with the option of splitting fire.

MOMUS
10-02-2010, 16:42
simple, the rhino is alot better as it is full of SM rather than guard

Lord Cook
10-02-2010, 17:11
Personally, I think the Chimera is about 5-10pts underpriced.

Possibly, but how much of the Chimera's effectiveness is being gained from the squad inside being able to shoot out? Because the embarked unit (particularly a standard Infantry squad) is good for precious little else, and also costs points. So we're paying 120 points for an Infantry squad with autocannon and flamer, inside a Chimera. The Infantry squad does not leave the Chimera unless absolutely necessary, so the whole 120 point package seems (at face value) to just be the Chimera, at 55 points. It seems too good. The same applies to the 155 point combination of melta Veterans and Chimera.

By comparison, Space Marines in a Rhino seem worse because the Marines aren't doing anything besides firing a single special weapon until they leave the Rhino. Now I appreciate that Tactical squads aren't very good, and could probably do with 2 attacks base to bring them up to par, but at least they can function without the transport. Once a Chimera explodes the Infantry squad inside is literally left hanging, poor at both shooting and assault, vulnerable to leadership issues and hemorrhaging Kill Points.

There is a unit in the Guard codex I would call overpowered, but the Chimera isn't it. Similarly, I think Rhinos are great for the points. Tactical squads need help, but that has nothing to do with either of our vehicles.

KingDeath
10-02-2010, 17:11
Hrm, i actualy like my Rhinos.
AV11 and a Havoc Launcher, what more could my black heart desire?
Sure, the degenerated imperial scum can only field a stormbolter or ( bwhahahaha ) fit a hunter killer missile, but who cares about the followers of the carion god? :D

UberBeast
10-02-2010, 18:33
I will save a lot of time and outline how this thread is going to go: The IG guys are going to argue that the Chimera is the easiest vehicle in the game to kill and that it has no real advantages because their awful side armor, which they apparently almost always get hit on.

Then you will be told that the Rhino's side armor of 11 makes it the best APC in the game, and that you overlook the incredible option of an added 10-point storm bolter to make "mobile and killy."

The fact that an entire football team's first and second strings could fire bullet passes out of the back of a Chimera will be ignored, as will the fact that it has more range, firepower, troop capacity, and a bigger firing point availability.

Invariably someone will mention the Rhino's repair ability. Seeing this ability actually happen in a game is sort of like seeing Bigfoot, so it's usually half-joking.

Someone will probably bring up the Razorback and how ridiculously overcosted all its variants are while trying to argue that having a TL HB turret is somehow worth the points when it horribly reduces carriage capacity and fire point usage -- two negatives the Chimera doesn't have to face at all no matter it's layout (whether it has one or three weapons).

Someone will get frustrated and say that the Imperial Guard need a powerful and capable transport like the Chimera en masse, because they have no other viable options (because there is no other higher-armored, faster, troop-carrying vehicle with heavy long range armament in the codex, of course...).

About this time someone will bring up the amazing advantage of the Rhino's entry points and will talk about how great the vehicle is when you do a completely non-immersive, meta-game-motivated thing like buy one for a squad you aren't going to ride in it (like a Dev squad) and use it as "mobile cover."

Some of these things may have already happened, of course...

In all seriousness, I am more upset about the Razorback than the Rhino. The Razor is an utter **** of a vehicle and a ghastly points sink. No variant of it is worth 70+ points while there are 65-point Chimera variants running around outshooting them. There is no justification for how good the new Chimera is, it is superior to the Rhino and Razorback in every way except access points, tank hunting (and that's with a 35pt lascannon), and side armor, all of which are negligible much of the time in the face of the Chimera's strengths. They could have at least made it count as open topped when having 376 guys firing their plasma guns from the roof...

It was very different when the Chimera was around ~100 points for virtually the same vehicle with less useful fire point options. We all knew a price drop was coming, but to cut the cost in half was really a shock to most of us...up here in Boston even some of our guard players think it was a ridiculous cut.

As far as the OP's sentiment goes, I have been annoyed with Space Marine vehicular mediocrity since the dawn of my entry in the game for just this kind of reason.

+1 Love for this post!

Epicenter
10-02-2010, 22:00
Personally, I think the Chimera is about 5-10pts underpriced. The Rhino is about adequately priced, but Extra Armor is wildly overpriced

EA is ridiculous across the board. I think the price for it was in reflection of the 4th edition vehicle rules. In 5th, EA is bordering on pointless and the cost OTT.


As far as the Rhino vs Chimera debate goes, the only thing about the Chimera I really grudge is the ability for 5 models to fire out of it.

I really don't think there was a single IG player who didn't have a moment of "..." (stupefaction) when we saw that you could shoot 5 models out of the top hatch. Shortly afterwards the "..." turned to "zomg squee!" As is readily apparent from looking at the rules section here, there's still many people who think it's too good to be true.

I'm going to say this right now, though. I'm going to use the heck out of chimeravets option right now, because it's one of those no-brainer options like assault cannon / starcannon spam, Carnifexes, and 3rd and 4th edition Falcons - all of which got nerfed. I suspect that 5-shooting port Chimeras or vets are going to get nerfed somehow next IG Codex to make us do something else.

starlight
10-02-2010, 22:09
Given that we've *always* been able to shoot five weapons from the back of a Chimera, I'm still a little amazed this is such a big deal.

Every Edition I've played until the 5th Ed IG Codex - Shoot any two models plus three Lasguns = five models shooting.

5th Ed - Shoot with any five models.

The only difference is that (by my count) three squads (Command, Special Weapons, Veterans) gained the benefit of getting three Specials and two Lasguns instead of two Specials and three Lasguns, as it was before...

Hardly game breaking to get one weapon per squad upgraded... Unless you're maxing out on Command and Vets, it's maybe a half dozen extra hits per game...and even if you are it's likely only (at most) two extra hits per squad? :eyebrows:

Badger[Fr]
10-02-2010, 22:19
Both vehicles would be grossly underpriced in regard to their abilities weren't it for Killpoints. An excessive number of dirt-cheap transports can be a significant liability.



I really don't think there was a single IG player who didn't have a moment of "..." (stupefaction) when we saw that you could shoot 5 models out of the top hatch. Shortly afterwards the "..." turned to "zomg squee!" As is readily apparent from looking at the rules section here, there's still many people who think it's too good to be true.
It looks good, until you realize a single shaken result is enough to neutralize both the transport and its passengers (and the whole unit costs as much as a Leman Russ). It's still useful, but not as much as one may think at first glance.

Lord Cook
10-02-2010, 22:30
;4383621']Both vehicles would be grossly underpriced in regard to their abilities weren't it for Killpoints.

Personally I think it was grossly overpriced in both our previous codexes, and we finally have a functional, competitive vehicle that is actually a good buy. The problems with other transports by comparison seem to revolve around unrelated issues, such as Devilfish having to pay points so that they aren't worth two Kill Points, or Rhinos having overpriced Tactical squads inside.

Badger[Fr]
10-02-2010, 22:36
Personally I think it was grossly overpriced in both our previous codexes,
They indeed were, considering how unforgiving 4th Edition rules used to be.


we finally have a functional, competitive vehicle that is actually a good buy.
They're probably even too good, to be honest. Mechanized IG builds would be an utter no-brainer weren't it for Killpoints.

de Selby
10-02-2010, 22:41
Fluffwise, I don't think there's anything the rhino can do that the chimera can't except maybe go in and out by Thunderhawk. It is rather unsatisfying.

I'd like the rhino to get some kind of special rule such that it cannot be immobilised: either you destroy it, or it keeps moving forward. I think this is very Marine.

I think this is what the self repair rule is supposed to reflect but it's too unreliable to really bring out the 'unstoppable' rhino character. The old rhino box had exclamation marks on it, as I recall. Rhino!

Grand Master Raziel
10-02-2010, 22:59
Given that we've *always* been able to shoot five weapons from the back of a Chimera, I'm still a little amazed this is such a big deal.

Every Edition I've played until the 5th Ed IG Codex - Shoot any two models plus three Lasguns = five models shooting.

5th Ed - Shoot with any five models.

The only difference is that (by my count) three squads (Command, Special Weapons, Veterans) gained the benefit of getting three Specials and two Lasguns instead of two Specials and three Lasguns, as it was before...

Hardly game breaking to get one weapon per squad upgraded... Unless you're maxing out on Command and Vets, it's maybe a half dozen extra hits per game...and even if you are it's likely only (at most) two extra hits per squad? :eyebrows:

You're forgetting a few points. One: the Chimera's fire point, as it currently stands, allows five members of the embarked squad to fire out with whatever weapons they happen to have, not two firing out with their weapons and three firing the hull lasguns. Two, IG players are getting Veteran Squads as a Troops choice now, so they have a Troops squad they can load up with specials and motor around with. Platoon Command Squads are good for this, too, especially if you keep them cheap. Having 4 guys fire flamers out the top hatch is no laughing matter. If it was just standard Infantry Squads getting to fire out of that top hatch, the 5-model capacity would be no big deal, but with squads like these being able to do it, it begins to loom pretty large as a major advantage.

Also, don't sneeze at a small increase in special weapon hits per game. In a tight game, that can very easily be the deciding factor.

starlight
10-02-2010, 23:05
Forgetting...? :eyebrows:

Okey-dokey...

Vaktathi
10-02-2010, 23:36
;4383621']Both vehicles would be grossly underpriced in regard to their abilities weren't it for Killpoints. An excessive number of dirt-cheap transports can be a significant liability. Eh, I personally don't see it much that way. KP's are a crutch for deathstar armies and people without calculators for the most part. None of the game designers have ever really mentioned KP's as a decision factor in any element of codex design as far as I can recall. Chimeras were horrifically overpriced previously, absolutely terrible. Rhino's have been 35pts for several years now, starting almost 3 years ago. We've had 50pt dark lance bearing raiders. Aside from the Chimera, I don't really recall much complaining about these vehicles. I think much of the problem with the chimera is that people really just aren't used to IG actually being able to play mech well. In the last book it was terrible, and most IG players still don't play that way, so when they see it, they have no idea how to react to it. People also have gotten into the rut of expecting IG to be a pushover (I've had players get upset over losing to guard because well...spehse elfs don't lose to guard!) and are surprised when they get shot off the table. The bigger problem, at least to me, is the Vendetta. Thing should be 25-40pts more.

The problem is that other armies haven't quite caught up yet, especially the skimmer armies that were, if anything, underpriced in 4th, are now really hurting with their expensive transports.



Fluffwise, I don't think there's anything the rhino can do that the chimera can't except maybe go in and out by Thunderhawk. It is rather unsatisfying. Side hatches. Any good SM player realizes just how huge a difference this can make. Extra distance and not having to show AV10 armor is a huge boon.

Col. Tartleton
10-02-2010, 23:39
Just give rhinos supercharged engines. Now they fit with the marine use of them: Horizontal Drop Pod Tank Shock

Drop Pods hit you from above at high speed careening through ack ack fire and deploying a squad of super soldiers in your face.

Rhinos hit you from the flank at high speed careening through anti tank and suppressive fire and deploying a squad of super-soldiers in your face.

They're not tanks, they're Marine HMMVs. The fact that their disposable one way SUV is about as hardcore as an IG IFV is what we should be looking at. Rhino's should be refluffed as being fast as hell and cheap/expendable/repairable easily.

Ozendorph
10-02-2010, 23:43
Rhinos are designed to support Marines. Chimeras were designed to be supported by Guardsmen. It's really that simple.

Imagine a Marine Sergeant riding in a Chimera. He'd be going nuts trying to figure out why the crew kept stopping to deliver inaccurate salvos of multilaser fire, rather than getting his unit to the front. It'd likely end in mutiny.

de Selby
10-02-2010, 23:43
I'll grant you that being that bit closer on disembarkation is useful in a game where every inch counts, but fluffwise I'm not feeling it as a decisive factor.

Sergeant, why must we go everywhere in this crappy transport?
It has doors in the sides my brother!

edit: if it had a big door in the front, like a land raider, then actually I could kind of see it as a characterful attribute.

Vaktathi
10-02-2010, 23:49
Fluffwise, it shares parts and is externally identical with nearly every other major SM vehicle, its immune to small arms, fluffwise it is a little faster than the chimera (not enough to warrant an in game effect however), it's reliable, it's *very* simple, and it gets the job done.

A chimera is a much heavier vehicle requiring greater support infrastructure that share nothing in common with any other SM vehicle, and needs a lot more support for ammo, weapons, etc and isn't as overall versatile. It's got a lot of stuff SM's don't *need*, but that acts as a great force multiplier for guardsmen.

Toe Cutter
10-02-2010, 23:55
Fluffwise, I don't think there's anything the rhino can do that the chimera can't except maybe go in and out by Thunderhawk. It is rather unsatisfying.

I'd like the rhino to get some kind of special rule such that it cannot be immobilised: either you destroy it, or it keeps moving forward. I think this is very Marine.

I think this is what the self repair rule is supposed to reflect but it's too unreliable to really bring out the 'unstoppable' rhino character. The old rhino box had exclamation marks on it, as I recall. Rhino!

So you want an even more broken version of the machine spirit than you already currently have? Rhinos that cannot be immobilised? So you want APCs with completely indestructible track mechanisms? Interesting.

What can the rhino do that the chimera can't? Allow units it transports to debouche from side doors. Allow units to debouche and move forwards without exposing its rear armour. Confer immunity to small arms fire (excepting tau weaponry) on the unit it transports from both front and side arcs.


You're forgetting a few points. One: the Chimera's fire point, as it currently stands, allows five members of the embarked squad to fire out with whatever weapons they happen to have, not two firing out with their weapons and three firing the hull lasguns. Two, IG players are getting Veteran Squads as a Troops choice now, so they have a Troops squad they can load up with specials and motor around with. Platoon Command Squads are good for this, too, especially if you keep them cheap. Having 4 guys fire flamers out the top hatch is no laughing matter. If it was just standard Infantry Squads getting to fire out of that top hatch, the 5-model capacity would be no big deal, but with squads like these being able to do it, it begins to loom pretty large as a major advantage.

Also, don't sneeze at a small increase in special weapon hits per game. In a tight game, that can very easily be the deciding factor.

He's not forgetting a few points at all you know. You're just not reading his post properly. The points you're trying to make, starlight has already made, you just misunderstood what he was saying.

This is just another case of nerd rage and envy from the space marine proletariat. Largely from the same space marine players that are no doubt spamming as much melta into their tactical squads as they possibly can in a vain attempt to emulate melta vet heavy guard lists.

Space marines are not guardsmen. They handle differently, play differently and should be treated differently. The sooner people realise this the sooner they will come to realise how epic fail a chimera would be as a transport for a marine list and how to properly use their rhinos and the squads within them.

Sadly if you can't even read whats placed directly in front of you, I don't hold out a great deal of hope for you figuring out how to use your army properly.

Archangel_Ruined
11-02-2010, 00:15
Fluffwise they'd be better welding the extra armour on the back and reversing at the enemy... There's a lot to say for jumping your marines out of a side door and rapid firing a squad to death while your ride is sat between you and all the return fire that would be coming next turn. The AV11 side armour just means it's more likely to be there and working next turn. I can see an arguement for making rhino's a bit more 'mariney' though. Rather than giving them all machine spirits (a bit complicated for a rough and ready ride) or making them fast (a bit too useful for a cheap marine transport) I'd vote for giving them extra armour as standard and drop the repair rule, just to keep them moving if all else fails. As it stands it's too pricey an upgrade.

Samus_aran115
11-02-2010, 00:17
Hrm, i actualy like my Rhinos.
AV11 and a Havoc Launcher, what more could my black heart desire?
Sure, the degenerated imperial scum can only field a stormbolter or ( bwhahahaha ) fit a hunter killer missile, but who cares about the followers of the carion god? :D

Bwahaha is right. for the sames price as a chimera, we get a havoc laucher for our useless metal transport shields. Beefing up a chaos rhino(or any rhino for that matter) isn't always the best idea. A land raider? Sure. Throw a dozer blade and a heavy flamer on it. It's AV14. A rhino? Pft. Let em' burn.

Haha. don't twist it though. I love havoc launchers and rhinos plenty, I just find that upgrading them is a rather meaningless prospect if your trying to get troops to where the action's at, then leaving them around to fire their upgraded frag missiles. Just use the points to give a marine something good, not the shield.

broxus
11-02-2010, 00:20
Personally I think it was grossly overpriced in both our previous codexes, and we finally have a functional, competitive vehicle that is actually a good buy. The problems with other transports by comparison seem to revolve around unrelated issues, such as Devilfish having to pay points so that they aren't worth two Kill Points, or Rhinos having overpriced Tactical squads inside.

Please dont tell me that you think that Tactical Marines are over costed? The lone Guardsman is the worst Troop choice infantry for the points in the game. I mean for only 11 points more a model you get the following (SW's make this even worse)

ATSKNF
Combat tactics
Acute Senses
Free Flamer
Free Missile Launcer, Multi Melta, or heavy bolter
Free Krak Grenades
Free Bolt pistol
Weapon has +2 AP
Weapon has +1 STR
+1 BS
+1 Weapon Skill
+1 Toughness
+1 Strength
+1 Initiative
+1 Leadership
+2 Armor Save
+Special skills from having named characters

Yea that seems fair huh?

IG for 5 points really got the raw deal compaired to every other codex, lets not even compare them to an orc. Orders could have really closed this gap but alas, GW really missed the boat on making them have good range. Vox casters should have been free squad upgrade and given orders a 48" range, along with giving each squad two free grenade launchers or possibly a grenade launcher and Auto Cannon as a free squad upgrade. I hate to feel that my transport is better than the unit it transports. If it was up to me Chimera's would be 60 points and have a Heavy Stubber for free, with no searchlight and a +5 points for smoke. I really think the IGs core should be tanks with heavy stubbers (they just make tanks look so cool and iconic), Grenade Launchers, and Autocannons as the focus/highlight of the IG.

In regards to people saying that the Chimera being over powered, its the only transport other than the Valk that can only be taken in the Fast Attack slot. The SM's can take Rhino's, Razorback, Land Raiders, jump infantry, multiple Speeders, Bikes, and Drop Pods. This give SM's tons of mobilty!!!
.

Toe Cutter
11-02-2010, 00:38
Oh cry me a river why don't you (but please wont you do it rather more quietly?)

Guardsmen at 5 pts is fine. Rather than comparing them to what you can get for simiar points in the ork codex or what you can get for three times its cost in the marine codex why not consider what you actually get for that 5 pts in the guard codex?

Individually a single guardsman is not good but when did you last see him singly?

When you take him and 29 of his mates, led by a barely sane commissar and some assaulty NCOs with a smattering of heavy and special weapons you get a force to be reckoned with. Particularly with certain of the orders you've derided rather short sightedly or when in close proximity to one Mr Iron hand straken.

Take some time to consider what you can combine that 5pt guardsman with from within his own codex to determine whether he's worth it or not. Don't bother wasting your time what other troops in other codices get - they're other troops and other codices and therefore are in an entirely different situation.

Grand Master Raziel
11-02-2010, 01:35
So
He's not forgetting a few points at all you know. You're just not reading his post properly. The points you're trying to make, starlight has already made, you just misunderstood what he was saying.

Okay, maybe it's more accurate to say he's giving them insufficient due. It would be one thing if the Chimera had the fire point it's got, but the only unit that could go inside it was the bog-standard Infantry Squad. It's quite another when it's Vets with their potential to fire up to 5 upgraded weapons out that hatch (Sergeant with plasma pistol, 3 squaddies with special, one HW) or Platoon Command Squads with similar capabilities. Having squads that can take that many special weapons and transports they can all fire out of at once is huge.


Please dont tell me that you think that Tactical Marines are over costed?

Ummm...the quote you're flipping out over is actually referring to the price of the previous Chimera. LS was stating that, last dex, the Chimera was overcosted. The Chimera. Not Tac Squads, Chimeras.


In regards to people saying that the Chimera being over powered, its the only transport other than the Valk that can only be taken in the Fast Attack slot. The SM's can take Rhino's, Razorback, Land Raiders, jump infantry, multiple Speeders, Bikes, and Drop Pods. This give SM's tons of mobilty!!!

Anything other than Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Drop Pods is outside of the realm of dedicated transports, and therefore like comparing apples to pot roasts. If you want to get into across-the-board comparisons, the thread could turn real ugly, real fast, because both sides will have partisans with fairly strong opinions. Sticking to just transports...you, Mr. IG player, can have Razorbacks. Seriously, next dex, you can just have them for all I care. Without some fairly major changes, the things are just expensive liabilities. Drop pods are useful, but they don't really provide mobility in the sense you mean. Yes, a pod lets you put a unit anywhere on the table. However, once there, that unit is basically staying there the rest of the game - or, more frequently than not, dying in that spot. The drop pod insertion can be tactically useful, but it's hardly a game-winner by itself. That effectively leaves Rhinos as the only transport SM players have that's worth a damn, and it's basically only worth a damn because it's cheap and it'll carry a full squad. Now, I'm not saying SM players should have Chimeras. However, what I am saying is SM vehicles really suffer by comparison to IG vehicles across the board, even in areas where they really shouldn't. Something should be done to redress this. My personal favorite solution would be that Agile rule from VDR (for those of you who don't know what that is, it gives the vehicle the same move-and-shoot profile as a Fast vehicle without giving it the movement of a fast vehicle) for Rhino-chassis vehicles. That would fix the problem right there. IG vehicles could still be the gun-heavy hammers they are now, but SM vehicles could be the more nimble mobile gun platforms they're supposed to be. Currently, SM gun tanks are actually less mobile than the Leman Russ tanks, because they have to sit stationary to fire more than one weapon, whereas the Russes can move and fire their turret weapon plus one other weapon. I can see IG vehicle having more firepower than SM vehicles. I can see them being more heavily armored. But being that and being more mobile? That's just not right.

The Marshel
11-02-2010, 02:49
The lone Guardsman is the worst Troop choice infantry for the points in the game. I mean for only 11 points more a model you get the following (SW's make this even worse)


cut the rest out to save space.

you do realize that point values are not only assigned on the basis of the individual profile, but the rest of the codex and its units are also taken into consideration. If guard were to, for some reason lose, oh lets say leman russes, the point cost of a guardsmen would go down to compensate for this.

I wasn't aware my marines got acute senses, so i just went to check the codex and, no, they don't. i don't know where you got that idea from, but you could possibly be referring to space wolves, if so i'll let that one slide, but keep in mind space wolf grey hunters are a very different ball game to the marines in the vanilla codex.

ATSKNF is certainly a handy ability to have, but more often then not, marines are running around without combat tactics so rather then being able to use this asset tactically, it usually ends up meaning that we get a few crippled squads rather then losing the lot (as normally, it takes a bit of a hammering in combat to get marines to run). valuable, yes, but i hardly see it as a strong point for marines being over bearing and guardsmen being overpriced.

free flamer is certainly handy, but is it really as free as you think? guard pay 5 points for the same flamer correct? you guys replace a lasgun for that flamer, so +1 S, +2ap. you also can neglect your bs 3 for that flamer, a nice advantage. add on to that jsut how many you can cram into an army and i'm starting to think you've done well to get it for 5 points. marines however gain no strength or ap bonus on their gun and sacrifice their good bs 4 to use this template weapon. so if guardsmen are going to get it for 5 points, i think its very fair that marines get it free

the free heavy weapon is a bit of a moot point. IF you're going to combat squad to get the most out of these weapons you probably tool a las cannon or plasma cannon to get the most out of these weapons. a single heavy bolter isn't overly effective and the combining its heavy status with the bolter's rapid fire makes it hard to combine the two, so no-one uses these. MM is certainly handy, but being unable to move and use it means all it really does is kep tanks off your rear. handy, but if it actually cost points, i wouldn't use it. missile launchers aren't really worth standing back to shoot anyway and are no overly reliable on their own at doing anything, so really,m our free heavy weapons bring almost nothing to the table.

you forgot frag grenades

+ one in every stat is representative of the fact that marines are super human. you'll find that in every game that uses the gw profile (warhammer, 40k historical etc) normal humans are represented by the WS 3 BS 3 S3.... stat line. any situation where something is abnormal in some stat, it is raised to 4. marines are super humans and as such are 4 in most every stat. nature of the army and by no means, unbalanced.

our armor is good, yes, but most everyone these days gets a 4+ cover anyway so i feel this point is annoyingly moot. This is a personal pet peeve of mine, this flaw in the cover save system, as it denies the units who pay for better armor their advantage. but thats another story for another day.

guard get their special bonuses for named characters too, and when applied properly, yes, orders make a huge difference. not other army gets orders, so i don't see how you can complain about what i and most would consider a fair and balanced system. given the modifications you suggest, a command squad could just hide in a ruin all day, out of sight and out of mind, and still be ordering the guardsmen. so the opponent would have to deal with all the first rank second rank, bring it down and so one, without the option of taking out the command. seems fair to you as a guard player i'm sure, but from an unbiased perspective, no, not at all.

so what if the chimera is your only transport. what do you want to transport anyway? the only guard unit that i see regularly which wants to be near the unit are meltavets and a chim works wonders for them. marines really do need to be in that 24" sweet spot, and the rhino, imo is great for getting us their. 12" move, pop smoke, follow up with another 12, get blown up, lose maybe one or two marines then do your business. its not graceful but it works. its an entirely different role to the chimera, which is usually more of a fire support armored bunker.

as for the rest of our mobility. what are marines mate? we are a strike force, shock and awe surgical tool of the imperium. yes, we are going to be more mobile then the guard in most situations, that how our army is designed to play.

and as for a guardsmen being overpriced, keep in mind that the guard are one of the more forgiving races. if you stuff up, make an error, or if you have a really bad turn of shooting/ combat/saves where the dice just hate you, its easier for you to come back from that then it is so eldar/marines/tau.

you lose a guardsmen squad, so what, you probably got 100 more men on the table anyway. I lose a marine squad, thats 170 points to your 50 (bare bones squads) and thats gonna make things much harder for me for the rest of the game objective wise.

So if you really consider the humble guardsmen to be overpriced, i'm not sure what army is for you, cause it really doesn't get much better then a guardsmen.

Tau_player001
11-02-2010, 03:51
Take some time to consider what you can combine that 5pt guardsman with from within his own codex to determine whether he's worth it or not. Don't bother wasting your time what other troops in other codices get - they're other troops and other codices and therefore are in an entirely different situation.

I just had to quote this. The irony!

AbusePuppy
11-02-2010, 04:13
Sticking to just transports...you, Mr. IG player, can have Razorbacks. Seriously, next dex, you can just have them for all I care. Without some fairly major changes, the things are just expensive liabilities.

Spammed Lascannon/Plasmagun hulls would like to disagree.

broxus
11-02-2010, 07:38
cut the rest out to save space.
So if you really consider the humble guardsmen to be overpriced, i'm not sure what army is for you, cause it really doesn't get much better then a guardsmen.

Wow, just wow!

Anyways you can cut it anyway you want it. Yes SM's should be better but if anyone states they are overpriced for what they can do I get very upset. As I pointed out compared to the IG they are a steal. ATSKNF is a huge deal btw if you lose combat you dont lose the entire squad. All I am saying is that really, IG infantry should have gotten some more love to put them in line with all the other 5th Edition codex's troops choice which are cheaper and stronger. If they had then maybe everyone wouldnt feel it required to field mech IG.

Vaktathi
11-02-2010, 07:47
and as for a guardsmen being overpriced, keep in mind that the guard are one of the more forgiving races. if you stuff up, make an error, or if you have a really bad turn of shooting/ combat/saves where the dice just hate you, its easier for you to come back from that then it is so eldar/marines/tau. I think this is the first time I have seen someone try and make this argument..ever.

broxus
11-02-2010, 08:12
I think this is the first time I have seen someone try and make this argument..ever.

I think it will most likely never happen again. It's similar to Hailey's Comet passing Earth you only get to see it once a lifetime twice if you live to be very old.

EmperorEternalXIX
11-02-2010, 08:34
You're annoyed that a heavy infantry army whose vehicles specialise in transportation and light support have inferior vehicles to a tank-based army? Isn't that the whole idea? Not so much the transports, but I am really tired of reading the epic fluff about the dreaded and mighty Predator Annihilator or the amazingly destructive Vindicator when they are both massively inferior to everything in the Guard codex.

Generally the fluff of the idea doesn't make sense at all. Space Marines...we are engineered to be the brutal destroyers of the Imperium's enemies...we are given the best armor, the best weapons, the best training...but apparently everyone thought we didn't need the best vehicles.


Space Marine vehicles are still effective for the points. Rhinos are well worth 30 to 35 points, and Razorbacks seem decent at 40. Razorbacks at 40 aren't that bad. Razorbacks at 70 are complete trash. And sadly the Space Marines are not really going to get much benefit when using anti-infantry weapons on transports. A rhino with a second storm bolter is almost as good against hordes as a razorback is. Why take the hits on transport capacity and fire points?

AndrewGPaul
11-02-2010, 08:42
Not so much the transports, but I am really tired of reading the epic fluff about the dreaded and mighty Predator Annihilator or the amazingly destructive Vindicator when they are both massively inferior to everything in the Guard codex.

Generally the fluff of the idea doesn't make sense at all.

You've got it backwards, there; it's the game that's wrong, not the background. :)

EmperorEternalXIX
11-02-2010, 08:44
Please dont tell me that you think that Tactical Marines are over costed? The lone Guardsman is the worst Troop choice infantry for the points in the game. I mean for only 11 points more a model you get the following (SW's make this even worse)

ATSKNF
Combat tactics
Acute Senses
Free Flamer
Free Missile Launcer, Multi Melta, or heavy bolter
Free Krak Grenades
Free Bolt pistol
Weapon has +2 AP
Weapon has +1 STR
+1 BS
+1 Weapon Skill
+1 Toughness
+1 Strength
+1 Initiative
+1 Leadership
+2 Armor Save
+Special skills from having named characters

Yea that seems fair huh?

IG for 5 points really got the raw deal compaired to every other codex, lets not even compare them to an orc. Orders could have really closed this gap but alas, GW really missed the boat on making them have good range. Vox casters should have been free squad upgrade and given orders a 48" range, along with giving each squad two free grenade launchers or possibly a grenade launcher and Auto Cannon as a free squad upgrade. I hate to feel that my transport is better than the unit it transports. If it was up to me Chimera's would be 60 points and have a Heavy Stubber for free, with no searchlight and a +5 points for smoke. This was a joke, right?


You've got it backwards, there; it's the game that's wrong, not the background. Yes, true in either viewpoint. I just am tired of reading fluff for the Guard tanks that explains they are easy to build and don't have a lot of need for materials, and yet they seem to also be made of sterner stuff than anything the SM field.

godking
11-02-2010, 08:49
I think the Chimera should have a rear AV of 14....have you seen the model that back door is thick. so 12/10/14 sounds good to me.

tuebor
11-02-2010, 12:45
I think that SM vehicles fit the fluff behind Space Marines quite well. Marines conduct rapid hit and run strikes after insertion from Thunderhawks or drop pods. Their vehicles are light enough to fit in a Thunderhawk, are quick and are made to support the dismounted Marines, which are the main combat power of a Marine force.

When the Marines need to fight a pitched battle against an entrenched enemy they have the vehicles for that, the Land Raider and the Vindicator.

Of course, certain point values could stand to be adjusted, the Razorback is rather overpriced for example, but I think in general they fit the theme well.

edit: After years of the Guard being considered a lesser army than the Marines I do rather enjoy the fact that some Marine players are actually jealous of what we have.

Lord Cook
11-02-2010, 13:36
You're forgetting a few points.

No Starlight covered all that very well. More to the point, it's incredibly unlikely you will ever fire five good weapons out the back of a Chimera. No Guard player worth the name puts plasma pistols on his sergeants. Similarly the chance of being able to fire both a heavy weapon and three specials is incredibly small. I don't know how often you get a chance to play with or against this, but that just doesn't really happen. The vast majority of the time it's three specials out the back. Perhaps, from time to time, four. The only way to get four is with a Command squad, and Platoon Command squads are Bs3. Company Command squads generally end up being one per army.


Please dont tell me that you think that Tactical Marines are over costed?

You don't? Buy a full Tactical squad and it will set you back, what, 180 points? And that's going fairly cheap. What does it do for 180 points? Nothing. It has no serious firepower, your durability is mediocre, a Rhino is basically mandatory and it has barely adequate punch in close combat. In trying to be good at all possible roles it's actually worse than average at everything. It only becomes half-decent when you add a special character like Vulkan and theme your squad around using his abilities. Chaos Marines aren't overpowered, and yet they are cheaper than Tacticals and have +1A, losing ATSKNF in the process. No contest.


The lone Guardsman is the worst Troop choice infantry for the points in the game.

:wtf: Only if we ignore:

Necron Warriors
Fire Warriors
Kroot
Tactical Marines
Guardian Defenders
Storm Guardians
Grey Knights
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
Space Marine Scouts
Bloodletters
Daemonettes

Yes, if we ignore those, guardsmen are absolutely the worst Troop choice for the points.


I mean for only 11 points more a model you get the following...

Don't compare model for model. Compare squad for squad. For the cost of a single Tactical squad with average equipment you can have three Infantry squads merged together with a Commissar. In that situation the guardsmen are far more durable, have far greater firepower, have dramatically better leadership, are much better in combat, are just as versatile, and can be issued orders. One of those orders make them just as mobile as the Marines as well.

The problem here isn't with the Rhino. It's with what's sitting inside it.


...This give SM's tons of mobilty!!!

All of which is completely irrelevent.


Ummm...the quote you're flipping out over is actually referring to the price of the previous Chimera. LS was stating that, last dex, the Chimera was overcosted. The Chimera. Not Tac Squads, Chimeras.

He was replying to me. It was quite clear.


My personal favorite solution would be that Agile rule from VDR

A good fix for Predators, but I'm not sure what use that would be to the Rhino however.


Not so much the transports, but I am really tired of reading the epic fluff about the dreaded and mighty Predator Annihilator or the amazingly destructive Vindicator when they are both massively inferior to everything in the Guard codex.

Well Predators are too expensive but that hardly has anything to do with the Imperial Guard.


Generally the fluff of the idea doesn't make sense at all. Space Marines...we are engineered to be the brutal destroyers of the Imperium's enemies...we are given the best armor, the best weapons, the best training...but apparently everyone thought we didn't need the best vehicles.

But define 'best'. Because the Rhino is the 'best' transport for Marines. It compliments them perfectly, while the Chimera compliments the Guard perfectly. Perhaps what some Marine players want is to have the best vehicles 'for the points'. And that's just not justified. All our vehicles should be worth the cost.

If instead what you want is to have the best vehicles regardless of points, then that's never going to work is it? Because all your vehicles would need more firepower and armour than Guard vehicles, and again that's completely unjustified.

Marines have overcosted Predators and their basic infantry continue to lack any clearly defined role. The first needs a codex fix, and I think the Agile solution is a good one. Keep the same speed but let them fire as a Fast vehicle. The second? Jury's out there.

Toe Cutter
11-02-2010, 13:39
I just had to quote this. The irony!

Oh mate - you've made my day. First of all, oh knower of things, I'd be ever so grateful if you could provide me with your particular definition of the term 'irony'. Then I'd be simply entranced to learn how irony describes the portion of my text you're quoting.


Not so much the transports, but I am really tired of reading the epic fluff about the dreaded and mighty Predator Annihilator or the amazingly destructive Vindicator when they are both massively inferior to everything in the Guard codex.

Fluff =//= gameplay otherwise your marines would never die and wouldn't have to bother using their bolters on my guardsmen, they'd just spit at them.



Generally the fluff of the idea doesn't make sense at all. Space Marines...we are engineered to be the brutal destroyers of the Imperium's enemies...we are given the best armor, the best weapons, the best training...but apparently everyone thought we didn't need the best vehicles.

Define best if you please?

You don't need chimeras (and trust me, you really don't want them - try swapping out your rhinos for chimeras and you'll soon realise why).

You don't need battle tanks. The space marine army has its emphasis on the marines themselves. Why would you go to the trouble of creating super human made of win warriors of doom only to have them sit inside battle tanks and lob ordnance shells at their opponents? Guard can do that and we can do that cheaper and better thank you very much.

Much to my displeasure you now have your very own short ranged ordnance that, I grudgingly concede, complements the short ranged nature of your forces nicely. Sticking a bassilisk or a manticore in a marine army would look ever so ridiculous and invalidate the whole point of the marine list (iron warriors I'm looking at you).

Marines are a super human character driven army of surgical strikes.

There is nothing character driven or surgical about the great leveller that is ordnance. Particularly ordnance that is flung half way across the battlefield at forces.

Badger[Fr]
11-02-2010, 13:47
I think much of the problem with the chimera is that people really just aren't used to IG actually being able to play mech well.
Why do IG play mech so well, in your opinion? Is it the sheer number of special weapons, or the affordable Av14 heavy tanks? I don't think so, as the previous Codex already featured BS4 Troops with 2 Special Weapons, efficient Av14 vehicles, and solid FA choices (namely, Hellhounds and Rough Riders), and yet, was nonetheless found wanting. The new 5th Edition units help, but are hardly mandatory.

Mechanized IG builds first and foremost depend on the humble Chimera. Weren't it for this ridiculously cheap Av12 vehicle, IG players wouldn't be able to achieve successful armour saturation. Apart from Kill points, there is no reason to not go Full Mech. And such a no-brainer would reek of bad game design, wouldn't it?

Tau_player001
11-02-2010, 13:58
Oh mate - you've made my day. First of all, oh knower of things, I'd be ever so grateful if you could provide me with your particular definition of the term 'irony'. Then I'd be simply entranced to learn how irony describes the portion of my text you're quoting.

Fair enough. This thread is about Rhinos vs Chimeras, and when someone start comparing guardsmen to tactical squads, you jump with "do not compare units to units". If you weren't comparing them, you shouldn't find you were insulted or something.

I am agree that the chimera is a really good addition to GI's army, and veteran squads being troops now, with 5 slots to shoot their special weapons throug chims with HP4 makes the chimera an incredible tool to maintain their gunlines. But i would never discuss it comparing it to other armies or other transport options. The problem with Chimeras is not the chimera itself, it's the veteran troops inside being troops. They should have either HP3 or being a cheap elite option, but not both for the point they cost and being able to do a such efficient job covering holes on the gunline for a cheapy troop slot.

Lord Cook
11-02-2010, 14:00
;4385544']the previous Codex... was nonetheless found wanting.

Possibly because the infantry was appallingly bad? Those Bs4 troops with two special weapons you mention were 10 points a model, needed a doctrine to become Troops and even then were limited to three squads per army. Veterans couldn't score. Basic infantry shed Kill points left, right and centre, with five-man Command squads of any type all being worth two Kill points each! Firepower was low, orders non-existent and leadership unreliable. Commissars were useless, rendering any single large block of troops pointless. Even in vehicles, Chimeras were devastatingly overcosted after the 5th Edition changes, and pretty bad even before.


;4385544']Mechanized IG builds first and foremost depend on the humble Chimera. Weren't it for this ridiculously cheap Av12 vehicle...

Firstly, you've still failed to explain how exactly the Chimera is 'ridiculously cheap'. Secondly, you can make a perfectly viable mechanised army while not depending on Chimeras at all. My current 1,750 point force has thirteen vehicles, of which only four are Chimeras. I'm depending on low quality in mass, and the reason it works is that so many other armies seem fixated with the next biggest and more expensive gimmick.

Badger[Fr]
11-02-2010, 14:50
Basic infantry shed Kill points left, right and centre, with five-man Command squads of any type all being worth two Kill points each! Firepower was low, orders non-existent and leadership unreliable. Commissars were useless, rendering any single large block of troops pointless.
You're entirely right, but how do Commissars and Infantry blobs relate to mechanized builds? Moreover, Killpoints are as much of an issue as they were in the previous book. I spent the whole 4th Edition playing a mechanized IG build, and had plenty of time to note these drawbacks by myself.


Those Bs4 troops with two special weapons you mention were 10 points a model, needed a doctrine to become Troops and even then were limited to three squads per army.
A ten man Veteran squad with 3 Meltaguns costs as much as an eight man Grenadier squad with two Meltaguns. Sorry, but I wouldn't call two additional bodies and a single BS 4 weapon (at the expense of carapace armour, targeters, and AP5 Lasguns) a game changer. The widely improved dedicated transport, however, is. Weren't it for Chimeras and Valkyries, Veterans would be utterly useless. Orders do help, but aren't necessarily mandatory. Being a short ranged, vulnerable unit, Veterans entirely depend on their transport, and it happens that they have perhaps the best dedicated transport in the entire game.


Firstly, you've still failed to explain how exactly the Chimera is 'ridiculously cheap'.
It's cheaper than the Infantry squad it carries, is tougher, and has two Heavy Weapons, one of which it can fire on the move. Whereas a Rhino is as good as the squad it carries, a Chimera remains a threat regardless of its passengers. There's a reason many competitive IG builds (actually, any build based on mechanized Veterans or Platoons) almost entirely depend on the humble Chimera.

Would the average mechanized Veterans build (to avoid the loathed term "Chimeltas") be so competitive if Chimeras were still 85 points each or were replaced by, say, Rhinos? I doubt it would.


Secondly, you can make a perfectly viable mechanised army while not depending on Chimeras at all.
If you field enough Valkyries, perhaps. But mechanized Troop choices would still be a no brainer IMHO, weren't it for Killpoints.

Lord Cook
11-02-2010, 15:56
;4385707']You're entirely right, but how do Commissars and Infantry blobs relate to mechanized builds?

Apologies, I was under the impression you were referring to the codex in general. Looking back, this was not the case. The other points still stand.


;4385707']A ten man Veteran squad with 3 Meltaguns costs as much as an eight man Grenadier squad with two Meltaguns. Sorry, but I wouldn't call two additional bodies and a single BS 4 weapon (at the expense of carapace armour, targeters, and AP5 Lasguns) a game changer.

Honestly, I would. Ap5 lasguns do very little and targeters are highly situational. Veterans get their own gimmicky situational bonuses as well in the form of frag and krak grenades. Whether or not the extra two men is worth the carapace armour I'd say probably not quite, but a Veterans squad is only taking morale checks after three deaths rather than two, and considering both of these units are trying to stay in their transports anyway, I don't want to have to pay for a better armour save. And three special weapons is a big deal compared to two, especially when you consider the potential effect of orders on top. Lastly if we're trying to create a pure mechanised force we ideally need more than three Troops choices, especially in 1,750+ games, and you were limited to three Grenadier squads.

Veterans are noticeably better than their previous counterparts. Enough to change the game probably not, but in combination with a cheaper Chimera enough to elicit complaints.


;4385707']The widely improved dedicated transport, however, is. Weren't it for Chimeras and Valkyries, Veterans would be utterly useless... Being a short ranged, vulnerable unit, Veterans entirely depend on their transport

Which has little relevance for the cost of Chimeras. Tactical Marines are arguably useless without a Rhino. No one would take Fire Dragons without a transport. The list goes on.


;4385707']...and it happens that they have perhaps the best dedicated transport in the entire game.

The best for them, yes. But 'the best'? Hardly. For the aforementioned Fire Dragons the best transport is something very durable because they are such a high-profile target and something very fast because they need to get within 12" and have no use hanging back because they can't score. Arguably their best transport is the Wave Serpent. You can't pick a single unit and say "this is the best vehicle" or some such, without clarifying 'at what'. Chimeras are good for relatively cheap shooting units for whom Av10 is a genuine improvement in armour, and in forces with enough units to pull off good mutual support to cover the side armour.


;4385707']It's cheaper than the Infantry squad it carries, is tougher, and has two Heavy Weapons, one of which it can fire on the move.

It's not tougher. Ten guardsmen in cover are harder to remove than a single Chimera, especially considering cover is far easier to achieve for those infantry. Sure it's tougher than ten guys out in the open, but why would they be out in the open? It's slightly cheaper by about 5 points, and it's two or three inches faster. The area where it does have the definitive advantage, as you say, is in firepower. But for that it isn't scoring on it's own, and it can't use orders to make it faster or increase firepower.

I'd agree that on the whole, a Chimera is marginally 'better' (whatever that means) than a standard Infantry squad, assuming we ignore the potential for merged platoons if we lack transports. That hardly makes it "ridiculously cheap", especially considering that ten-man Infantry squads aren't exactly the best measure of greatness.


;4385707']Would the average mechanized Veterans build... be so competitive if Chimeras were still 85 points each or were replaced by, say, Rhinos? I doubt it would.

Would the average mechanised Eldar army work if all the Wave Serpents were replaced by Chimeras?

Vaktathi
11-02-2010, 16:03
Not so much the transports, but I am really tired of reading the epic fluff about the dreaded and mighty Predator Annihilator or the amazingly destructive Vindicator when they are both massively inferior to everything in the Guard codex.
Never have these vehicles ever been presented as more powerful than IG tanks. SM's have never been presented as a tank army.

SM fluff is painfully over exaggerated, especially the newer stuff, to the point where its even hard to just read without laughing. If Mr.Ward and a couple others would tone it down a notch or seven, stuff might not seem so bad. Too many SM players read into it way too far. Contrary to popular opinion, SM's aren't supposed to be the absolute best at everything. They are elite shock troops with limited numbers that rely on the strength of their incredible infantry above and beyond everything else.

Even going back to 2nd edition, SM tanks were never more powerful than IG tanks. The Leman Russ Demolisher was better armored than the Land Raider (which was about identical to the normal LRBT) which they totally revamped once 3E came out.



Generally the fluff of the idea doesn't make sense at all. Space Marines...we are engineered to be the brutal destroyers of the Imperium's enemies...we are given the best armor, the best weapons, the best training...but apparently everyone thought we didn't need the best vehicles.
You have Land Raiders. You have fast attack grav effect vehicles as opposed to flyers that have been weighted down with heavier armor. Those are both outside the purview of the Imperial Guard. The Predator and Vindicator are, when it boils down to it, kitbashes of the common SM APC hull designed to provide fire support, not be all powerful army destroying MBT's.

Tanks aren't what the Space Marines are about. Space Marine's have vehicles to support their incredibly amazing infantry. If they had incredible MBT's and the like, the need for genetically engineered super soldiers would be greatly diminished. Most SM's tanks are there for being light, fast (at least fluffwise faster than IG tanks) and ease of transport and maintenance, not to be the most powerful battle tanks available, when that need occurs, you have Land Raiders and Thunderhawks.

Badger[Fr]
11-02-2010, 16:28
Veterans get their own gimmicky situational bonuses as well in the form of frag and krak grenades.
Grenadiers got them as well, IIRC.


Veterans are noticeably better than their previous counterparts.
They are, but are they good enough to turn an overall weak army into one of the most competitive builds in the entire game? I don't think so, and neither are our new HS or FA choices. At the moment, Officers and/or Chimeras are, in my opinion, the backbone of the Imperial Guard. Without them, neither Mechanized nor Infantry builds would be viable.


The best for them, yes. But 'the best'?
To be fair, I may have been a little too emphatic, but a Chimera has everything a good IFV needs: it's mobile, affordable, reasonably durable, features two heavy weapons, and has a great synergy with the Imperial Guard as a whole, thanks to its firepoints and the widespread use of Av12+ vehicles in most mechanized builds. Most transports are found wanting in one area or another (Rhinos are harmless, Trukks and Raiders are outrageously vulnerable, and Wave Serpents are pricey), but Chimeras are not.


It's not tougher.
In a vacuum, I would probably agree, but one must consider the army as a whole. If your opponent faces Hydra squadrons, Valkyries, and Leman Russes, he's unlikely to target the Chimeras first. As a consequence, a mechanized IG build is much tougher than the sum of its parts. That's the whole point of armour saturation.

In terms of sheer effectiveness, I think it's quite obvious the current IG Codex favours mechanized builds. Infantry platoons are quite efficient but slow, pricey, and eventually depend on Orders and Commissars. An all Infantry IG army is much more vulnerable than a mechanized build.

borithan
11-02-2010, 18:02
I think the Chimera should have a rear AV of 14....have you seen the model that back door is thick. so 12/10/14 sounds good to me.I know your making a joke, but the vehicle that the Chimera is based on, the BMP 1 also has very thick rear doors. This is because the doors were used as extra fuel tanks...

Toe Cutter
11-02-2010, 18:31
Fair enough. This thread is about Rhinos vs Chimeras, and when someone start comparing guardsmen to tactical squads, you jump with "do not compare units to units". If you weren't comparing them, you shouldn't find you were insulted or something.

:D fair enough you've got me there, there is a degree of irony in that situation. In my defence, I've pointed out at several points already that comparing chimeras to rhinos in isolation rather than in the context of their respective army lists is just as daft as comparing a guardsman to a marine in isolation. I therefore believe that the point is valid while still being ironic.



I am agree that the chimera is a really good addition to GI's army, and veteran squads being troops now, with 5 slots to shoot their special weapons throug chims with HP4 makes the chimera an incredible tool to maintain their gunlines. But i would never discuss it comparing it to other armies or other transport options. The problem with Chimeras is not the chimera itself, it's the veteran troops inside being troops. They should have either HP3 or being a cheap elite option, but not both for the point they cost and being able to do a such efficient job covering holes on the gunline for a cheapy troop slot.

Emphasis mine.

It would appear I've found another case of irony. You mock me for making a point then make the very same point yourself. Comparisons without context are bunkum. On this we appear to agree.

Think I can hear Alanis Morisette playing in the background somewhere. I'm off to throttle her. ;)

Skyros
11-02-2010, 18:53
Please dont tell me that you think that Tactical Marines are over costed? The lone Guardsman is the worst Troop choice infantry for the points in the game. I mean for only 11 points more a model you get the following (SW's make this even worse)

ATSKNF
Combat tactics
Acute Senses
Free Flamer
Free Missile Launcer, Multi Melta, or heavy bolter
Free Krak Grenades
Free Bolt pistol
Weapon has +2 AP
Weapon has +1 STR
+1 BS
+1 Weapon Skill
+1 Toughness
+1 Strength
+1 Initiative
+1 Leadership
+2 Armor Save
+Special skills from having named characters

Yea that seems fair huh?

Haha, *only* 11 points more? Or for more than 3x the cost of a guardsman?

I think vanilla tactical marines are overcosted. You said they get acute senses, which is false.

Combat tactics isn't worth a point per model to upgrade. If it cost 1 point, I would never buy it. Same thing for bolt pistols, really.

The +2 AP on the weapon has much less of an impact than it sound, because models with that AP would simply be using cover saves anyway.

Same for the +2 armor save - models w/out power armor just take 4+ cover saves and there's an abundance of melta these days.

And it's disingenuous of you to mention the space marine special skills without mentioning the orders provided to IG troopers or the IG own selection of special characters.

Anyway, you're overlooking a difference in how the two armies play. Tactical squads are supposed to be able to handle anything - they're supposed to be the meat of the army. The rest of the space marine army is there just to support the basic space marine. IG is supposed to have more specialized responses to specific threats. Your basic grunt is just there to protect/deliver the special/heavy weapons. The basic IG trooper isn't expected to do all the work. An IQ squad is just a glorified delivery system/protection mechanism for your special and heavy weapons. Tactical squads are not (or well, they shouldn't be. Right now they kind of are, which is why people think they are overcosted).

I'm just kind of amazed an IG player would think his guardsmen should be more like Space Marines.

Also I have no burning desire to use a chimera for my Space Marine forces. Space Marines don't live inside their rhino the way IG live inside their chimera, so the better side armor and extra access points (and cheaper cost) seem better to me. Rhinos are a delivery system for a squad of marines. It's cheap and it's supposed to get them where they go. It represents a fraction of the squads cost. A chimera is the fighting platform for a Guard squad, which wants to stay inside its vehicle as long as possible. The two armies play completely differently and I think each transport complements the fighting style of each army quite well.

broxus
11-02-2010, 19:31
This was a joke, right?

Yes, true in either viewpoint. I just am tired of reading fluff for the Guard tanks that explains they are easy to build and don't have a lot of need for materials, and yet they seem to also be made of sterner stuff than anything the SM field.

No your right, with all those free upgrades that a marine has compaired to a Guardsmen it should probably be cheeper. hmmm.. Mabye SM's should only be 10points.

Sarcasim off.

broxus
11-02-2010, 19:36
Haha, *only* 11 points more? Or for more than 3x the cost of a guardsman?

I think vanilla tactical marines are overcosted. You said they get acute senses, which is false.

Combat tactics isn't worth a point per model to upgrade. If it cost 1 point, I would never buy it. Same thing for bolt pistols, really.

The +2 AP on the weapon has much less of an impact than it sound, because models with that AP would simply be using cover saves anyway.

Same for the +2 armor save - models w/out power armor just take 4+ cover saves and there's an abundance of melta these days.

And it's disingenuous of you to mention the space marine special skills without mentioning the orders provided to IG troopers or the IG own selection of special characters.

Anyway, you're overlooking a difference in how the two armies play. Tactical squads are supposed to be able to handle anything - they're supposed to be the meat of the army. The rest of the space marine army is there just to support the basic space marine. IG is supposed to have more specialized responses to specific threats. Your basic grunt is just there to protect/deliver the special/heavy weapons. The basic IG trooper isn't expected to do all the work. An IQ squad is just a glorified delivery system/protection mechanism for your special and heavy weapons. Tactical squads are not (or well, they shouldn't be. Right now they kind of are, which is why people think they are overcosted).

I'm just kind of amazed an IG player would think his guardsmen should be more like Space Marines.

Also I have no burning desire to use a chimera for my Space Marine forces. Space Marines don't live inside their rhino the way IG live inside their chimera, so the better side armor and extra access points (and cheaper cost) seem better to me. Rhinos are a delivery system for a squad of marines. It's cheap and it's supposed to get them where they go. It represents a fraction of the squads cost. A chimera is the fighting platform for a Guard squad, which wants to stay inside its vehicle as long as possible. The two armies play completely differently and I think each transport complements the fighting style of each army quite well.

I am not saying that SM's should be weaker or that IG should be better. I am saying that at 5pts a model IG are still over costed for what they can do, period. If they dont want to make them 4pts a model then I recommended some changes to make them in line with the 5th edition codex trend of super cheap troops.

I hate that I have to play mech guard like you recommend to make my army work. Sadly I would take nothing but Chimera's instead of guardsmen if i could. Vets are costed correctly but the standard squads blow and should be cheaper. I mean its sad the transport has more dakka than the squad inside.

Lord Cook
11-02-2010, 20:09
I am saying that at 5pts a model IG are still over costed for what they can do, period.

Only if you include them in ten-man squads. A thirty-man squad with a Commissar is very good value, and well worth the points. They need to be used properly in order to function properly.


I mean its sad the transport has more dakka than the squad inside.

Because that isn't a realistic portrayal of how real-world human militaries operate? :shifty:

fluffstalker
11-02-2010, 20:59
Agreed! Have you seen a Bradley IFV in action? Its cannon is rather hefty, and it can sport ToW missles to boot! The only time the infantry squad would outgun it if it was an anti armour squad with heavy weaponry.

As for the rhino, well, I like to think about it this way. Has anyone seen the 'movie' marines stats? Thats basically how marines would be as they are portrayed in 99% of the fluff, not even the more OTT books like Brothers of the Snake. However, for sake of game balance, marines are not 50 point, S6, T 6, W 2 powerhouses, because then marine armies would be ridiculously tiny and boring, or everybody else would have to have gigantic armies to deal with them. Likewise, I seriously doubt marines would actually ride to battle in an apc that has less armour than the Guard vehicle. However, for balance reasons, rhinoes are not AV 13, Preds are not AV 14, and LRs are not AV Infinity. I agree its silly that a very elite force would go to war in such a fragile transport, but thats a background argument, and for sake of gameplay balance rhinos being AV 11 is fine.

Azazyll
11-02-2010, 23:20
An important fluff reason for Rhinos is the number of Crew.

A Rhino only requires one driver who can also fire the weapon mount. A Chimera requires 3. Marines are too valuable a resource to sit nursing a single weapon mount or sitting in the command chair of a tank when they could be putting their fist through the skull of some xenos scum.

See, I could almost get behind that, except that that one crew member is a space marine. Why are they wasting one guy in power armor and those expensive glands as nothing but a glorified taxi driver? So he gets to shoot a storm bolter. WOO HOO! Time to paint the town red!

If it had a hull mounted HB, or HF, I could get behind it. But to be completely lacking in real firepower seems like a waste.

And I'm shocked no one has brought up STC in the thread thus far. It's the annoying fluff explanation I was waiting for.

starlight
11-02-2010, 23:35
Possibly the driver is at some level of training between being assigned to a Reserve Company before being attached to a Battle Company in a Squad proper?

Skyros
11-02-2010, 23:58
I always thought the driver was a particularly lucky space marine 'scout' level.

Nullius
12-02-2010, 00:03
Sorry if this has been adressed as I skipped a few pages but someone earlier mentioned that a pro of the chimera is that it has 5 fire points yet doesnt count as open topped. I was under the impression that if someone fired from a transports hatch, unless it had armor value of 3+ or better, the vehicle counts as open topped until your next turn. Is that an old rule?

Vaktathi
12-02-2010, 00:11
Sorry if this has been adressed as I skipped a few pages but someone earlier mentioned that a pro of the chimera is that it has 5 fire points yet doesnt count as open topped. I was under the impression that if someone fired from a transports hatch, unless it had armor value of 3+ or better, the vehicle counts as open topped until your next turn. Is that an old rule?

Old rule, 5th edition got rid of it.

Tau_player001
12-02-2010, 00:52
I always thought the driver was a particularly lucky space marine 'scout' level.

I believe they are the poor clumsy on the company, because they are not really lucky driving those metal boxes (well... they will need to, to survive the battle i mean).

pom134
12-02-2010, 01:00
I think you have to look at it like this:

A rhino actually IS a transport. Its job is to move marines around.

A chimera is a battle tank. If guard players could take them without taking infantry they would. Because lets face it, guard infantry are garbage and chimeras are awesome, especially in high volume.

Tau_player001
12-02-2010, 01:00
I am not saying that SM's should be weaker or that IG should be better. I am saying that at 5pts a model IG are still over costed for what they can do, period. If they dont want to make them 4pts a model then I recommended some changes to make them in line with the 5th edition codex trend of super cheap troops.

I hate that I have to play mech guard like you recommend to make my army work. Sadly I would take nothing but Chimera's instead of guardsmen if i could. Vets are costed correctly but the standard squads blow and should be cheaper. I mean its sad the transport has more dakka than the squad inside.

People tend to forget this most part of the time. Body count, you are just not paying for a grunt, you are paying for more wounds for your special/heavy weapons, and they are reliable if you complement the guardsmen with their gear/options.

You can't compare 30 imperial guards+Command platoon to 10 tactical marines on default, if you want to compare them, do the maths right. Get that 30 imperial guards geared and the same for the space marines. You will see their synergys work way better between gear options/cost and sinking wounds (body count!) than the 10 tactical marines upgraded.

If i could kill 2 guardsmen per shot, yeah. But even the worst creature in-game should pay 3 points atleast for having W1.

Lord of Worms
12-02-2010, 01:19
Possibly the driver is at some level of training between being assigned to a Reserve Company before being attached to a Battle Company in a Squad proper?

In brothers of the snake, there was no 11th guy. One of the ten men in the squad drove them around. If you chose to ignore that, then they would be members of the armoury, techmarines that drive the tanks and thunderhawks and maintain everything.

Vaktathi
12-02-2010, 01:52
To be fair, brothers of the snake, while an ok read, is probably the least fluff accurate SM novel ever written. Tac squads killing a thousand dark eldar, one SM dispatched to deal with Dark Eldar on a planet, normal SM's tearing through Plague Marines without heed to their vastly more hardy physiology, SM's showing up and just giving orders to IG commanders (a big no-no except for very rare situations), and much much more. So much mary sue and blatant ignorance of stuff in every other SM background material.

broxus
12-02-2010, 07:04
I just give up trying to argue with those who think that SM troops are over costed. This codex made them a much better deal than the last. If you think they cost to much then I dont know how you could possibly say IG troops dont cost to much also for what they can do. Sure SM's got the shaft compared to the SW's but other than that they are possibly one of the best deals in any army.

EmperorEternalXIX
12-02-2010, 07:31
The problem here isn't with the Rhino. It's with what's sitting inside it. I don't agree with much else you said, but I have to agree here. If the basic space marine were cheaper, or if he were say a Grey Hunter, all would be well. As they are, I find the guys severely lackluster relative to both fluff and most of the game. 16 points they are not...12 points at best, maybe arguably 13 or 14. And before you go on about all of those abilities and special rules, just remember that a pretty good amount of them only kick in when they are getting their shiny blue butts whipped (which in a perfect world, you will not be using much because you aren't dying en masse). When combat tactics won me games there was nothing "Space Marine" about it; it was just me eeking out a technicality and clawing one or two lone broken men toward an objective with a run move. Most of the time using Combat Tactics is just going to get you escorted off the board, if your foe is canny.

I long for a future in 40k where every models like a Space Marine with a lot of gear is BASE costed and does not COME with almost anything...I would like to decide if I'd rather have combat tactics and grenades or be 3 points cheaper.

WLBjork
12-02-2010, 09:02
In brothers of the snake, there was no 11th guy. One of the ten men in the squad drove them around. If you chose to ignore that, then they would be members of the armoury, techmarines that drive the tanks and thunderhawks and maintain everything.

The author either messed up or changed the background for that Chapter.

Traditionally, vehicle crews are drawn from one of the reserve companies (6th IIRC).

Edit: As for the aforementioned trucks for IG, they were an example in VDR. AV9 all round (unarmoured), open-topped. Worked out at 20pts or less.

Logarithm Udgaur
12-02-2010, 09:50
After reading through this entire thread, I just got to ask: am I the only one that fields veterans on foot?

Bloodknight
12-02-2010, 10:36
Probably yes ;). I only do that if I play a whole footslogger army. I don't field any Chimeras then so my opponent's AT guns are completely wasted.

Fixer
12-02-2010, 11:09
Probably. Veterans are much more useful when they get to range, and when they get to range rapid fire with plasma, melta or flamer death. A unit on foot is vulnerable to lash, ranged fire and assault. A unit on foot can only move 6" with it's meltaguns causing a 12" threat range on it's close range melta shots. A unit in a transport can move 12", deploy 2" and have a 1" base width bonus for a much improved 21" threat range (and since the Chimera can spin on the spot, that's a threat range from any edge of the vehicle.)

The difference between Vets and Tacticals is fairly plain to see. Veterans can be configured for a squad with a stack of assault weapons while tacticals can only field one. The additional benefits that tactical marines have (armor, str, grenades) aren't of any use when going into a shooting role and are effectively wasted. In a recent tournament with my single tactical marine squad I managed to use the Krak grenades of my Tacs precisely zero times.

And again, with so many things out there that will crush a tactical marine squad as easilly as a guard veteran squad in close combat (thinking Orks, Beserkers, Monsterous creatures etc) the marines better close combat ability is also completely pointless.

Then you have tactical marine dire configuration making them a heavy weapon, assault weapon and bolter squad. A basic unit at 205 points with a Transport doesn't put out enough firepower and isn't versatile enough for it's points cost to be taken in any serious number, while additionally ending up as the only scoring units marines have. It leads to tactical marines ending up hiding for the most part while the more effective parts of the marine army go out and do their work.

These issues don't crop up with Chaos and Space Wolves. They can pack in more assault weapons and due to extra attacks/plague marine junk or what have you, they're actually versatile due to decent close combat ability combined with an improved amount of assault weapons. What's more Space Wolves can have 6 strong units with their Razorbacks as fire support while tactical marines have no real units with the exception of small Sternguard squads that would really make use of them (I wont mention Devestator squads here as they are woefully overpriced and no one takes them these days)

In the case of things like Sternguard, Grey Hunters, Plague Marines and Khorne Beserkers, the extra firepower of the Chimera would be mostly wasted as the job of the vehicle is to deliver a deadly cargo (and thus keep moving 12" most of the time). For tactical marines, they spend most of the time hiding and never getting out of their metal boxes if possible. In that case the Chimera's superior firepower and front armor is something to be jealous of.

Lord Cook
12-02-2010, 14:08
I just give up trying to argue with those who think that SM troops are over costed.

It's not an argument broxus when you don't make any credible points or support your argument with any credible facts. Why do you think Tactical squads are worth the current cost? Why do you think that a Guard Infantry platoon that is literally better at shooting, assault, leadership and versatility is comparable to that same Tactical squad?


In a recent tournament with my single tactical marine squad I managed to use the Krak grenades of my Tacs precisely zero times.

Ironically, possibly their best chance to use said krak grenades was scuppered by a Guard Veterans squad moving 12", flipping their Chimera around, disembarking 2" towards their Land Raider and then blowing it apart. Tactical Marines just aren't impressive for the cost.

borithan
12-02-2010, 15:12
To be fair, brothers of the snake, while an ok read, is probably the least fluff accurate SM novel ever written.Well... the older stuff said that the crew of all a Chapter's vehicles were indeed just line troopers (this was when a Space Marine Chapter was indeed pretty much 1000 guys, rather than each battle company being at least 105 guys, probably more), and so 1 or 2 of the squad might be tasked to man the vehicle (though I think the implication was it was more likely to be people from the reserve companies, allowing battle company squads to remain at full strength dismounted).

gitburna
12-02-2010, 15:26
SNIP.... the marines better close combat ability is also completely pointless.

Then you have tactical marine dire configuration making them a heavy weapon, assault weapon and bolter squad...SNIP... It leads to tactical marines ending up hiding for the most part while the more effective parts of the marine army go out and do their work.

These issues don't crop up with Chaos and Space Wolves. They can pack in more assault weapons and due to extra attacks/plague marine junk or what have you, they're actually versatile due to decent close combat ability combined with an improved amount of assault weapons.

The thing is though, what can you do? Tactical squads are following the established background. As is the Rhino. I remember Andy Chambers saying something similar in regards to the Space Marine fleet for BFG. They worked great for planetary assaults but weren't quite so hot at fleet encounters - Great as per background but no good as per games. So what can you do to stay true to the background and also be good in the game?

Fixer
12-02-2010, 15:49
The thing is though, what can you do? Tactical squads are following the established background. As is the Rhino. I remember Andy Chambers saying something similar in regards to the Space Marine fleet for BFG. They worked great for planetary assaults but weren't quite so hot at fleet encounters - Great as per background but no good as per games. So what can you do to stay true to the background and also be good in the game?

Possibly the following:
Points cost adjusted to match Space Wolves.
Combat tactics changed: Now gives Space Marines Hit and Run for the first round of any combat they did not initiate.
Two combat squads from the same unit can travel in the same transport if there is space.
Combat squads can re-merge into a single unit (but they cannot split again if the squad is below 10 members)
Close combat weapons.

Lord Cook
12-02-2010, 15:56
How about:

Bolter drill - At the start of their shooting phase, Tactical squads that pass a leadership check may fire +1 shot with their bolters than they would normally be able to.

Gives them two shots at 24", or three at 12". Emphasizes their iconic signature weapon a bit more and gives them some genuine shooting punch without simply adding more un-fluffy special weapon slots.

ScItRiX
12-02-2010, 16:40
After reading through this entire thread, I just got to ask: am I the only one that fields veterans on foot?

Nope. I like to run a mixed force. Vets with camo cloaks sitting on an objective are pretty good. Use the Vets in chimeras to go take objectives or hunt things.

Earl_UK
12-02-2010, 18:13
id say its all about the SM using the rhino as a standard chassis for the bulk of there vehicles.

Rhino
Razorback
Predator
Whirlwind

one spanner fits all.

Cerraand
12-02-2010, 18:28
I don't agree with much else you said, but I have to agree here. If the basic space marine were cheaper, or if he were say a Grey Hunter, all would be well. As they are, I find the guys severely lackluster relative to both fluff and most of the game. 16 points they are not...12 points at best, maybe arguably 13 or 14. And before you go on about all of those abilities and special rules, just remember that a pretty good amount of them only kick in when they are getting their shiny blue butts whipped (which in a perfect world, you will not be using much because you aren't dying en masse). When combat tactics won me games there was nothing "Space Marine" about it; it was just me eeking out a technicality and clawing one or two lone broken men toward an objective with a run move. Most of the time using Combat Tactics is just going to get you escorted off the board, if your foe is canny.

I long for a future in 40k where every models like a Space Marine with a lot of gear is BASE costed and does not COME with almost anything...I would like to decide if I'd rather have combat tactics and grenades or be 3 points cheaper.

Are you really saying you want your SM only one point higher than the sisters of battle (who are only WS3 S3 T3 and I3)?
It makes as much sense as wishing for 5 points firewarriors.
It seems to me you're trying to compensate your lack of skills with cheaper marines.

Again SM players whining because IG "have something better than my SM"...
I'm getting tired of hearing that.

Anyway, wasn't the thread about rhinos VS Chimera?

Personally they are not used for the same purpose, so comparing them is not really relevant.

Skyros
12-02-2010, 18:29
Krak grenades are another one of those things I would almost certainly not pay a point per model to buy. They are so rarely useful. About the only time I've ever used them is when I get charged by walkers...and relying on Krak grenades to save you there is a waste of time.

I also wouldn't pay a point per model for combat tactics. (Except perhaps on bikers).

However, I don't think the answer is to turn tactical marines into blood angels marines/ space wolves marines.

Vaktathi
12-02-2010, 18:33
How did this thread turn into

"what's wrong with tactical marines"?



That said, free krak grenades are one of the most amazing things for 5E marines of all types now that you're hitting on back armor. Even a single tac marine can pose a potentially lethal threat to a Leman Russ. They weren't usually worth the 20pts per squad before, but combined into the base cost along with frags and a bolt pistol, they make anything that isn't a land raider, monolith, or big walker a decent target in an assault.

de Selby
12-02-2010, 19:16
So you want an even more broken version of the machine spirit than you already currently have? Rhinos that cannot be immobilised? So you want APCs with completely indestructible track mechanisms? Interesting.

This is just another case of nerd rage and envy from the space marine proletariat. Largely from the same space marine players that are no doubt spamming as much melta into their tactical squads as they possibly can in a vain attempt to emulate melta vet heavy guard lists.


Quoted for hysteria.

I guess the debate has run its course but for the record, while I do have a marine army I also have a guard army and I mostly play tyranids. Yes, Virginia, there really are people out there who want to change the way things work in the game without being part of a nefarious plot to take over the world/tabletop.

EmperorEternalXIX
12-02-2010, 19:43
Nerd rage and envy from the Space Marine prole...wow. I can't even finish reading that.

I think I made my point earlier. The debate of Rhino Vs. Chimera must not just consider the two vehicles in a vacuum, but rather, must also

@Cerraand: The point isn't that IG have "something" better than the Space Marines. it's that they have EVERYTHING better, except the numbers on their stat lines. The synergy of the codex, the power level of the weaponry, the volume of fire, the number of mobile scoring units (that are quite capable of defending themselves and surviving despite what many guard players would have us believe).

You guys can tout 3+ saves and T4 all you want...I don't think there's one of us out there who wouldn't rather have 30-35 T3/5+ save models than 10 T4/3+ save models. The blindness of the Guard community on Warseer just amazes me.


Krak grenades are another one of those things I would almost certainly not pay a point per model to buy. They are so rarely useful. About the only time I've ever used them is when I get charged by walkers...and relying on Krak grenades to save you there is a waste of time.

I also wouldn't pay a point per model for combat tactics. (Except perhaps on bikers).

However, I don't think the answer is to turn tactical marines into blood angels marines/ space wolves marines. I agree largely with this sentiment. Most of the gear/rules a Space Marine carries do not come into effect during a battle, and when they do, it is often out of desperation once the fight is already largely lost.

Combat Tactics: Only can be used if you lost in assault or got shot up 25+%.
ATSKNF: You got merc'ed badly enough to fall back from combat or shooting
Krak Grenade: "Well I know it might not work but I have no choice since my Power Fist guy died..."
Frag Grenade: Yup, I'm going to assault all the time with a 1-attack model.
The Free Heavy Weapons: If we are doing what marines do and deep striking, assaulting, and moving up in our awesome Rhinos, when am I going to use this?
Special Weapons: The Plasma gun will just kill your 30+pt model at some point and it's fire is meant for targets the rest of the squad won't deal well with; the melta gun means you have a squad of guys firing ineffectively at vehicles so the melta guy can get a shot off; the flamer works out well enough but it's costed effectively (of course I think it should be free for many people not just SMs...very situational weapon).
Power Armor: As I've said, a large number (I venture a blind guess of about 60%) of the weapons in the game ignore this, and we simply don't have the numbers to sit back and shoot.
Toughness 4: Means nothing to a lot of the weaponry in the game. If the gun or model is strong enough you are getting wounded on 2s and 3s just like a guardsman is, so this is largely situational. While it's nice to be tougher, let's face it...without assault consolidation there are only so many times you will get assaulted in a game, and when you have a dozen well-armed metal boxes to hide in the odds of your force suffering severe losses in one swoop from assaults versus your comparatively low toughness is massively lessened.
The point is, the Tactical Marine is what makes the Rhino not that useful. If Scouts could take Rhinos I bet you wouldn't even SEE Tactical Marines in many lists.

Vaktathi
12-02-2010, 20:15
The point isn't that IG have "something" better than the Space Marines. it's that they have EVERYTHING better, except the numbers on their stat lines. Oh yeah, that close combat ability, first turn deep strikers with no-risk scatter, etc.

IG have more of everything, that's their point. Not everything is better.


The synergy of the codex That's a writer issue, not a fluff issue or something regarding vehicles.


the power level of the weaponry The vast majority of which are identical to SM weapons


the volume of fire Guard have always had a far higher volume of fire than marines. That's the point. Why do you always bring this up in threads like this? Marines have never been, and were never meant to be, on the same level as Imperial Guard in a heavy weapons shooting war.


the number of mobile scoring units Again, this has always been the case. IG have always had more troops, at the cost of being individually less effective and less survivable.


that are quite capable of defending themselves and surviving despite what many guard players would have us believe If used well yes. I'd still take a 10man tac squad to hold an objective over a 25man foot slogging platoon against most threats.



You guys can tout 3+ saves and T4 all you want...I don't think there's one of us out there who wouldn't rather have 30-35 T3/5+ save models than 10 T4/3+ save models. The blindness of the Guard community on Warseer just amazes me. Hyperbole is fun.



Combat Tactics: Only can be used if you lost in assault or got shot up 25+%. So wait, an ability regarding morale tests is bad because you only get it when you need to take a morale test?



ATSKNF: You got merc'ed badly enough to fall back from combat or shooting Great in synergy with the above. Keeps you from running off the board. Many have been the game where a win has slipped from my hands when a marine unit just regroups and runs back to an objective.



Krak Grenade: "Well I know it might not work but I have no choice since my Power Fist guy died..." 1/3 chance to pen almost any tank in the game, 50% chance to do something to it. Multiplied by 9 or 10 guys. Awesome. I use these on my CSM's at least once a game unless facing nids and the like.



Frag Grenade: Yup, I'm going to assault all the time with a 1-attack model. Pistol shots + follow up assault with 2 attacks, not hard to defeat anything that's not also a space marine or an equivalent, or that doesn't outnumber you 3-1. Or at worst prevent an enemy from gaining an advantage and engaging them on an even footing most of the time.



The Free Heavy Weapons: If we are doing what marines do and deep striking, assaulting, and moving up in our awesome Rhinos, when am I going to use this? A good point, but the heavy weapon in the squad is something that has been there since RT and is codified in SM lore.

Surprisingly enough, this is one of the things SW players love to bring up as a "drawback" for why their marines aren't far and away the best SM book out right now.



Special Weapons: The Plasma gun will just kill your 30+pt model at some point It's far less useful and more likely to kill a model on guardsmen, costing only 33% less total (20pts as opposed to 30). The only places you really even see these in IG armies is on CCS's and Vets squads riding in chimeras. GW has gone out of their way to kill the Plasma Gun.


the melta gun means you have a squad of guys firing ineffectively at vehicles so the melta guy can get a shot off Or gives you a chance to ID a character, hurt an MC, or kill a transport so you can assault what was inside it.



Power Armor: As I've said, a large number (I venture a blind guess of about 60%) of the weapons in the game ignore this, and we simply don't have the numbers to sit back and shoot. In the IG book, 15 of the 40 non-ordnance weapons are AP 3/2/1. Granted most of the ordnance weapons are, but IG are an exception to most armies with this sort of weaponry.

Most AP1/2/3 weapons are single shot weapons, meaning hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's, they'll kill about 3 marines in a 6 turn game. The vast majority of weapons in the game are not AP3.

In the SW book, about half ignore armor saves, but almost all are single shot weapons aside from plasma guns and Cyclone missiles.

Orks have 6, most of these are BS2 single shot weapons.

etc.



Toughness 4: Means nothing to a lot of the weaponry in the game. If the gun or model is strong enough you are getting wounded on 2s and 3s just like a guardsman is, so this is largely situational. While it's nice to be tougher, let's face it...without assault consolidation there are only so many times you will get assaulted in a game, and when you have a dozen well-armed metal boxes to hide in the odds of your force suffering severe losses in one swoop from assaults versus your comparatively low toughness is massively lessened. [/list] T4 means little to heavy weapons, but it means the world against small arms and in close combat. There's more to 40k than long range heavy weapons fire.

T4 3+ is also huge against medium anti-infantry weapons. That means it takes a BS3 heavy bolter about 3 turns to kill 1 marine on average, so 2 in a 6 turn game. That same heavy bolter will kill 7-8 Guardsmen in the same game.



The point is, the Tactical Marine is what makes the Rhino not that useful. If Scouts could take Rhinos I bet you wouldn't even SEE Tactical Marines in many lists.Not quite sure how to respond to that. The basic scout is, if anything, worse in terms of cost efficiency and organic weapons capability than a Tac marine. I don't think they'd be much more popular than tac squads.

Is the IG book probably overall more powerful than the basic SM book? I'll go ahead and say yes, it is. But most of this is basically wanting marines to be what they aren't or not fully appreciating what they already have. SM's aren't supposed to be *teh Übar* at everything. There are things that will outshoot them. There are things that will outfight them. There are things that will outmaneuver them. SM's however are designed so that they can generally be better (or at least on par) at one or two of these things than an opponent no matter *who* they face, and for the most part do that ok.

Cerraand
12-02-2010, 20:15
@Cerraand: The point isn't that IG have "something" better than the Space Marines. it's that they have EVERYTHING better, except the numbers on their stat lines. The synergy of the codex, the power level of the weaponry, the volume of fire, the number of mobile scoring units (that are quite capable of defending themselves and surviving despite what many guard players would have us believe).


Then stop playing space marines if you think guards are so much better...



You guys can tout 3+ saves and T4 all you want...I don't think there's one of us out there who wouldn't rather have 30-35 T3/5+ save models than 10 T4/3+ save models. The blindness of the Guard community on Warseer just amazes me.


Funny thing is, I don't play guards, you falsely assumed I did because I said something in their defense?



I agree largely with this sentiment. Most of the gear/rules a Space Marine carries do not come into effect during a battle, and when they do, it is often out of desperation once the fight is already largely lost.


As an elite infantry army, I expect them to be versatile, if you want specialization go see other chapters.



Combat Tactics: Only can be used if you lost in assault or got shot up 25+%.
ATSKNF: You got merc'ed badly enough to fall back from combat or shooting


They are not as bad as you say. Are you expecting them to be fearless??



Krak Grenade: "Well I know it might not work but I have no choice since my Power Fist guy died..."


Tactical marines are not that much designed to kill big stuff, so losing a power fist is no big deal. At least you have a backup gear.



Frag Grenade: Yup, I'm going to assault all the time with a 1-attack model.


It's an all or nothing matter to you?
The fact is they can take on many infantry in the game with very good chances of winning. If you send them against CC specialists, you're a fool.



The Free Heavy Weapons: If we are doing what marines do and deep striking, assaulting, and moving up in our awesome Rhinos, when am I going to use this?
Special Weapons: The Plasma gun will just kill your 30+pt model at some point and it's fire is meant for targets the rest of the squad won't deal well with; the melta gun means you have a squad of guys firing ineffectively at vehicles so the melta guy can get a shot off; the flamer works out well enough but it's costed effectively (of course I think it should be free for many people not just SMs...very situational weapon).


There's a lot of uses for heavy/special weapons in a tactical squad. If you choose to use them in a tac squad, you must have a plan. But you are not compelled to (and you don't have to pay for them)



Power Armor: As I've said, a large number (I venture a blind guess of about 60%) of the weapons in the game ignore this, and we simply don't have the numbers to sit back and shoot.

Toughness 4: Means nothing to a lot of the weaponry in the game. If the gun or model is strong enough you are getting wounded on 2s and 3s just like a guardsman is, so this is largely situational. While it's nice to be tougher, let's face it...without assault consolidation there are only so many times you will get assaulted in a game, and when you have a dozen well-armed metal boxes to hide in the odds of your force suffering severe losses in one swoop from assaults versus your comparatively low toughness is massively lessened.


60% of the weapons are AP3 or better?? you must be joking
Even if there's some AP3 weapons, nothing forbids you to use cover.
An entire squad with power armor is quite hard to kill to a lot of troops.
If you need special weaponry to take down the troop choices of the opponent maybe it's because the armor is not so useless

The T4 may not be insanely powerful, but it gives the upper hand on most situations.



Nerd rage and envy from the Space Marine prole...wow. I can't even finish reading that.

I think I made my point earlier. The debate of Rhino Vs. Chimera must not just consider the two vehicles in a vacuum, but rather, must also

Nerd rage, Envy... you just described most your posts (someone had to tell you someday)


Maybe we should go back to the original topic now. I suggest you open a thread on how bad Tactical marines are if you want to continue.

As some people said earlier, both transports are not used for the same thing.
The rhino is a battle taxi and the chimera is much more like a moving weapon platform.

Skyros
12-02-2010, 20:24
1/3 chance to pen almost any tank in the game, 50% chance to do something to it. Multiplied by 9 or 10 guys. Awesome. I use these on my CSM's at least once a game unless facing nids and the like.

While I would definitely pay extra points for frag grenades and ASKTNF, I just don't see krak grenades being used all that often - primarily because of the frequency with which you need to roll 6's to hit. Then you need to roll to penetrate. I've often had a full squad use krak grenades and get 0 penetrations. It seems far too unlikely to occur to make that be a 'plan' for tanking out tanks, and as such I would (given the choice) be much more likely to not pay the points for krak grenades and instead spend the points on other more effective anti-tank weaponry.

Vaktathi
12-02-2010, 20:25
It happens, but more often you need 4's, sometimes you get to auto-hit. I routinely lose 1-3 tanks a game with my IG to krak grenades.

Archangel_Ruined
12-02-2010, 20:47
It's chalk and cheese, I know. The thing is, I don't think anyone is really going to say the chimera is anything other than fantastic. It is, the cost of it, the units it can carry, the firepower and firepoints. It really adds something to the unit it carries. I don't think the rhino is awful, I just don't think it compares as favourably.

EmperorEternalXIX
12-02-2010, 21:13
Then stop playing space marines if you think guards are so much better...I play Space Wolves, and even with them carrying better troops in my army, I still look at the Rhino and go "man I wish I didn't have to use these crappy things, they are so lame."


Funny thing is, I don't play guards, you falsely assumed I did because I said something in their defense? I didn't assume anything -- every time I talk about the Imperial Guard a brigade of people pop up and ceaselessly harass me about my opinions (even in threads like this one, where others have agreed). I wasn't really referring to you, but rather the "Emperor Eternal Fan Club" that seems to turn up every time I post with snide jabs at me. These are guys who very obviously play Guard, with tons of Guard logs and such in their sigs, etc. But at least people like Vaktathi try to make an effort at disguising their rage for the sake of appearing civil; this reply was pretty rude by comparison.

If you don't play Guard I assume you must play SM...if you don't play either, why even participate in this thread?


As an elite infantry army, I expect them to be versatile, if you want specialization go see other chapters.A Grey Hunter or Chaos Marine squad is versatile. A Space Marine squad is non-synergistic crap that can't deal with any real targets effectively (except those designed with extreme vulnerability to the bolter), but has a slight possibility of rare to near-miraculous success in a variety of situations (krak grenades, know no fear moves toward objectives, combat tactics taking you that one extra inch to avoid the "You can't regroup" rule, etc). I spent a lot of times with my tacticals in 5th edition and most of it was spent running for their lives or praying for a non-optimal attack to succeed. That is why I changed to Space Wolves, the sole reason: The basic marine plays like crap in the standard SM dex.


They are not as bad as you say. Are you expecting them to be fearless?? Yep. Silly me, when the Emperor of Mankind decrees in the fluff that they are literally bred without a capacity to feel fear, I would expect them to not have a whole slew of special rules designed around running for their lives, the same way you would not expect a Tau Ethereal to have a re-rollable 2+ armor save on his robe.


Tactical marines are not that much designed to kill big stuff, so losing a power fist is no big deal. At least you have a backup gear.Well of course not, that is their sort of built-in weakness. But I don't like relying on a back up gear. No one else has to do that, why should the Space Marines? When was the last time you felt like taking a Hunter Killer Missile on an IG vehicle would be great because of how often they lose all their weapons, for example? In IG you have twice as many chances to do something you are geared for, with the sheer volume of fire. And again I point out the numbers differences...an SM list is going to spend almost an entire unit's worth of points on a handful of easily destroyed vehicles that grant KPs and mount absolutely ZERO offense. I can deal with both of those faults, though -- because like I quoted before, and relative to the topic, the problem isn't the 35 pt Rhino, it's the 170+ point **** in its bowels that makes it not that helpful.

And to Vak--I'm not saying it's WRONG for the Guard to put out that much fire, or that the Space Marines should do the same, but it's certainly a huge difference when comparing these two transports, wouldn't you say?


It's an all or nothing matter to you? The fact is they can take on many infantry in the game with very good chances of winning. If you send them against CC specialists, you're a fool. Using a Tactical Squad for close combat of any kind is still a desperation move, just like most of their other tricks. The only reason I ever assaulted with them instead of firing their weapons was because the situation dictated it was mathematically more likely for my desired outcome, which is rare (since mostly in CC marines hit other stuff in the game on 4's). This is pretty rare, since most of the wussy infantry in the game are T3 5+sv, which means it would be numerically better to bolter them (because of the AP) unless they're in cover (which, let's face it, they always are in 5th ed, just about). The only time it is beneficial universally is when you pistol and charge into cover on one of the crappiest squads in the game for CC, and in this situation you put your marines in the dangerous situation of possibly encountered a power weapon of some kind, which is the most dangerous thing to them in the game (due to dying with no save possible in CC and causing extra No Retreat wounds on top of it, assuming you try to use the "awesome" combat tactics rule and fail to escape, which happened almost every time I used it in CC even against total bums). And as was already mentioned...the Krak Grenades are not as useful as they may seem on paper, either.


There's a lot of uses for heavy/special weapons in a tactical squad. If you choose to use them in a tac squad, you must have a plan. But you are not compelled to (and you don't have to pay for them)I will give you the argument that was given to me..."If I took a crap in this bucket and said, 'Here, it's free!' ... does that make it good?"


60% of the weapons are AP3 or better?? you must be joking Well generally the game seems to have a series of equivalent type weapons. Right now there are a lot of imperial armies and they all carry the same kit, looking purely at that...power weapons/fists, any rending weapons, any melta weapons, any long-range AT weapons like MLs or LCs, plasma weapons meant to deal with MCs, and of course, pretty much every ordnance weapon in the game that isn't the Whirlwind...I mean what else is there? The flamer, the heavy bolter, and the autocannon? Of course considering the other armies in the game alters this number a lot, but that is why I said it was a blind guess, if you were paying attention.


Even if there's some AP3 weapons, nothing forbids you to use cover. An entire squad with power armor is quite hard to kill to a lot of troops. If you need special weaponry to take down the troop choices of the opponent maybe it's because the armor is not so useless This is pretty much true, of course if you stand in cover you are just going to be hitspammed to death. The thing that sucks about cover is it provides no benefit to a space marine unless he's being hit by something pretty serious, whereas your average guardsman is going to be getting a better save against almost every weapon in the game from it. If a Space Marine unit is in cover, just inflict mass wounds till it fails some saves. VERY easy for the Chimera, for what it's worth.


The T4 may not be insanely powerful, but it gives the upper hand on most situations. It gives an equal ground in a lot of situations, but with so many high strength weapons floating around, it usually is "wound on a 2+" a lot of the time despite being above average.


Nerd rage, Envy... you just described most your posts (someone had to tell you someday) Yup that's me...nerd raging everywhere...that's why I'm the one throwing disrespectful jabs into his posts and singling people out, I guess...


Maybe we should go back to the original topic now. I suggest you open a thread on how bad Tactical marines are if you want to continue. I really was not off the topic; the reason the Rhino loses in this comparison on every level is because of the Tactical Marine being bad. There are plenty of people in this thread who agreed with this sentiment (in fact it was put forth by another poster, I was only agreeing with it and elaborating on it...why the hell don't you guys go crucify anyone else for a change?).


As some people said earlier, both transports are not used for the same thing. The rhino is a battle taxi and the chimera is much more like a moving weapon platform. This is true, but the comparable cost versus the wildly different battlefield roles makes no sense and I can't imagine a logical argument to that. So it's a gunboat, a pillbox, whatever. Yeah, makes sense fluff-wise and gameplay-wise. I fail to see any logic as to why that means its justifiable to have 10 of them, all scoring, all firing away from turn 1. I know it's fluffy but you can't even deny how insanely strong such lists are relative to the rest of the game. Subsequently, you can't even really compare the two vehicles; the Rhino is never gonna win a game for a Space Marine army the way Chimeras are going to be integral to a Guard army.

Cerraand
12-02-2010, 22:28
If you don't play Guard I assume you must play SM...if you don't play either, why even participate in this thread?


Why not? It's forbidden to post on topics that are not to the army you play?



Yep. Silly me, when the Emperor of Mankind decrees in the fluff that they are literally bred without a capacity to feel fear, I would expect them to not have a whole slew of special rules designed around running for their lives, the same way you would not expect a Tau Ethereal to have a re-rollable 2+ armor save on his robe.


If we followed everything the fluff said about space marine, only one acid-spitting, feel no pain etc... tactical marine should be enough to take on a 3000 points force.



because like I quoted before, and relative to the topic, the problem isn't the 35 pt Rhino, it's the 170+ point **** in its bowels that makes it not that helpful.


You can put something else than tactical squads in it.

You still rant for abilities the basic marine have. I really don't think you have to pay for them.



I will give you the argument that was given to me..."If I took a crap in this bucket and said, 'Here, it's free!' ... does that make it good?"


No, I doesn't. But it's not total crap in the bucket you're talking about.
And since I doesn't cripple the unit, I wouldn't call it crap.



Of course considering the other armies in the game alters this number a lot, but that is why I said it was a blind guess, if you were paying attention.


Just saying you were way over the actual thing.



Yup that's me...nerd raging everywhere...that's why I'm the one throwing disrespectful jabs into his posts and singling people out, I guess...


I did deserved that. I knew. But point is, you don't realize you're doing it often. That was my point. If you can't even realize it, I guess I just wasted my time.



I really was not off the topic; the reason the Rhino loses in this comparison on every level is because of the Tactical Marine being bad. There are plenty of people in this thread who agreed with this sentiment (in fact it was put forth by another poster, I was only agreeing with it and elaborating on it...why the hell don't you guys go crucify anyone else for a change?).


Since you don't use the plain tact marine, why do you insist so much on them making rhinos useless?



This is true, but the comparable cost versus the wildly different battlefield roles makes no sense and I can't imagine a logical argument to that. So it's a gunboat, a pillbox, whatever. Yeah, makes sense fluff-wise and gameplay-wise. I fail to see any logic as to why that means its justifiable to have 10 of them, all scoring, all firing away from turn 1. I know it's fluffy but you can't even deny how insanely strong such lists are relative to the rest of the game. Subsequently, you can't even really compare the two vehicles; the Rhino is never gonna win a game for a Space Marine army the way Chimeras are going to be integral to a Guard army.

It's true that too much chimeras take out the fun of a game, but when I have to face a fully mechanized SM army (more than 5 rhinos) I makes it as hard as the fullt mechanized chimeras. You have to take out a vehicle then a squad.

The guards cannot take much punishment, so they need a transport like the chimera. I don't see why a space marine squad should use them.

Vaktathi
12-02-2010, 23:36
I play Space Wolves, and even with them carrying better troops in my army, I still look at the Rhino and go "man I wish I didn't have to use these crappy things, they are so lame." I never feel that way about them with my CSM's, they get me across the board,



A Grey Hunter or Chaos Marine squad is versatile. A Space Marine squad is non-synergistic crap that can't deal with any real targets effectively (except those designed with extreme vulnerability to the bolter), but has a slight possibility of rare to near-miraculous success in a variety of situations (krak grenades, know no fear moves toward objectives, combat tactics taking you that one extra inch to avoid the "You can't regroup" rule, etc). I spent a lot of times with my tacticals in 5th edition and most of it was spent running for their lives or praying for a non-optimal attack to succeed. That is why I changed to Space Wolves, the sole reason: The basic marine plays like crap in the standard SM dex. I think that's more a function of creep in marine codex's relative to each other. I'm having a hard time coming up with an army list in the CSM, BT, SM, DA, or BA books that would compete on even footing with the SW book, and I wouldn't want to have to take BT's, DA's or BA's against the basic SM book it I wanted a fair match. Each SM book that comes out has to be flashier, killier, more special than the last, and most especially compared to the basic SM book.




Yep. Silly me, when the Emperor of Mankind decrees in the fluff that they are literally bred without a capacity to feel fear Methinks this is a little mistaken. Fear still exists, I believe they even state as such in several SM books. It's not so much that they don't fear anything, it's that it's reduced essentially to a "this is a bad situation", an informational thing that they don't allow to conquer them to the point where it is a "oh **** run!".



Well of course not, that is their sort of built-in weakness. But I don't like relying on a back up gear. No one else has to do that, why should the Space Marines? Most armies don't have backup gear. Most units in other armies are good at one thing and that's it, SM's can engage MEQ infantry to a decent degree, slaughter weeny infantry, they can kill light vehicles relatively easily, and tanks even without powerfists and stand a good chance of killing them (10 krak grenades hitting on 4's stand a better chance of killing an LRBT than 2 BS4 meltaguns)


When was the last time you felt like taking a Hunter Killer Missile on an IG vehicle would be great because of how often they lose all their weapons, for example? If they didn't cost so much to the point where it'd just be better to take another unit :P I've never found HK missiles in any army to be worth it.




In IG you have twice as many chances to do something you are geared for, with the sheer volume of fire. And again I point out the numbers differences...an SM list is going to spend almost an entire unit's worth of points on a handful of easily destroyed vehicles that grant KPs and mount absolutely ZERO offense. Well, the whole KP mechanic is dumb :P

As to having zero offense, that's why they are cheap as all hell. As they are, they are a humongous force multiplier. The difference between a footslogging SM army and a mechanized SM list is huge. Their value comes not from any offensive firepower, but enhancing the ability of other units to use their offensive power. The enhanced mobility and defensive value is huge.



And to Vak--I'm not saying it's WRONG for the Guard to put out that much fire, or that the Space Marines should do the same, but it's certainly a huge difference when comparing these two transports, wouldn't you say? There's a difference in the purpose. The Rhino is a metal box to quickly and cheaply get the marines up the board to do their nasty thing in one piece. The Chimera is there be an organic bunker/fire support mechanism for the IG unit that's going to die to a stiff wind if it has to get out.

The threat in the SM army is from the infantry, the vehicles are there to support the infantry. In the IG army, the tank is as important as the infantry, its an entirely different army paradigm.



Using a Tactical Squad for close combat of any kind is still a desperation move, just like most of their other tricks. The only reason I ever assaulted with them instead of firing their weapons was because the situation dictated it was mathematically more likely for my desired outcome, which is rare (since mostly in CC marines hit other stuff in the game on 4's). Against most eldar, tau, DA/BA/BT's, IG, Gaunts of all types, etc it'll be scarier to pistol them and then charge. Against CSM's, it's still probably better to pistol and charge and hope you beat them on an even footing than rapid firing and taking a scary charge after. It's really only CC specialists that you would rather rapid fire than pistol+assault, stuff like Genestealers and Berzerkers.


This is pretty rare, since most of the wussy infantry in the game are T3 5+sv, which means it would be numerically better to bolter them (because of the AP) unless they're in cover (which, let's face it, they always are in 5th ed, just about). 2 bolter shots versus 1 bolt pistol shot and 2 CC attacks? Unless they're attacking first, and hitting much harder, you'll be better off shooting that pistol along with any assault weapons, and following it up by charging.



I will give you the argument that was given to me..."If I took a crap in this bucket and said, 'Here, it's free!' ... does that make it good?" Most of the stuff SM's have isn't terrible. 170 pts for 10 T4 3+sv dudes that will auto-regroup, can't be swept, have pistols, S4 rapid fire weapons, frag and krak grenades, come with a heavy weapon and a flamer, can split into two squads, with pretty much 4's across the board for stat's isn't terrible. They aren't in the situation that IG ST's are in where they pay for gear and rules that their statline can't back up.

I'd agree that SM's would be much better if they had the option for 2 specials, that would actually increase effectiveness a lot. That said, on their own they aren't terrible, its that their equivalent keep getting better and better.

It also doesn't help that the SM book is designed primarily to fight other marines, and then have their thunder stolen when the next SM book gives everything counterattack, free double special weapons, and an extra attack for cheaper :p




This is pretty much true, of course if you stand in cover you are just going to be hitspammed to death. The thing that sucks about cover is it provides no benefit to a space marine unless he's being hit by something pretty serious, whereas your average guardsman is going to be getting a better save against almost every weapon in the game from it. If a Space Marine unit is in cover, just inflict mass wounds till it fails some saves. VERY easy for the Chimera, for what it's worth. That's a legitimate gripe. The stupid ubiquitous 4+ cover save is ridiculously powerful for armies like Orks, and utterly useless for MEQ armies. A BS modifier would have been infinitely more appropriate.



It gives an equal ground in a lot of situations, but with so many high strength weapons floating around, it usually is "wound on a 2+" a lot of the time despite being above average. Against heavy weapons yes, but that isn't a problem unique to Space Marines. But then again, that's the point of heavy weapons.



This is true, but the comparable cost versus the wildly different battlefield roles makes no sense and I can't imagine a logical argument to that. So it's a gunboat, a pillbox, whatever. Yeah, makes sense fluff-wise and gameplay-wise. I fail to see any logic as to why that means its justifiable to have 10 of them, all scoring, all firing away from turn 1. I know it's fluffy but you can't even deny how insanely strong such lists are relative to the rest of the game. Subsequently, you can't even really compare the two vehicles; the Rhino is never gonna win a game for a Space Marine army the way Chimeras are going to be integral to a Guard army.You can make a decent footslogging IG army without chimeras. Less mobile, but ****tons of dudes and still a ton of guns. I don't think you can make a legitimately competitive SM army without rhino's. All drop pod or footslogging SM lists are incredibly easy to isolate and destroy in detail comparatively.

Skyros
13-02-2010, 00:18
While tactical marines have their issues, I don't think those issues come from the Rhino. A tactical squad in a chimera would be an even bigger points sink and really gain almost nothing, IMO.

Rhinos work great for sisters of battle, for example. The difference between a foot slogging sister force and a mechanized rhino sister force is night and day.

And sisters *can* be in chimeras (through various inducted force shenanigans) but most feel it really isn't worth the effort (or extra points cost)

Pyriel
13-02-2010, 00:27
in my opinion the true problem lies in the uses of the tactical squad. not exactly the rules, but the way tactical squads are used in the current metagame.

first of all:
1.given the fact that 40k is a wargame, it needs intelligence to be played well. at least some degree.
2. given the fact that the average person is not smart but... well, average.
3. given the fact that the average 40k player plays space marines (hugest sellers)
4. therefore, many(not all!) space marines players have average, thus sub-par intelligence. i'm not accusing anyone in particular, and for the sake of the argument lets cosider me "dumb like the rest", but hear me out a little:

when have we seen space marine players realy revolutionise their playstyle from edition to edition?
i keep seeing powerfists in nearly every damned sergeant, as if they're still 15 pts, as if they're still 4 attacks on the carge.
i keep seeing anti-tank loaded tacticals, as if the squad is small like in the previous las-plas codex, and its bolters were few so losing their utility was ok...
i keep seeing tactical squads misused. in another thread, there was a player (no offense to him, i've made worse mistakes in the past) seriously considering a 250-pt(with rhino) worth all-comers tactical.

the tactical squad needs to be given a *role*. by playing "powerfist rhino extra armor, now get best special weapon and best heavy weapon" , you might be getting all the cool stuff, but you're not giving the squad a role. theories on using the tactical squad in a better way *can* and *do* exist.

there is no "tactical squad" unit; there are *the unit's variants*. i will accept SM complaints about tacticals the moment i see them properly studied and used. till then, suck it up.

Ozendorph
13-02-2010, 00:44
in my opinion the true problem lies in the uses of the tactical squad. not exactly the rules, but the way tactical squads are used in the current metagame.

first of all:
1.given the fact that 40k is a wargame, it needs intelligence to be played well. at least some degree.
2. given the fact that the average person is not smart but... well, average.
3. given the fact that the average 40k player plays space marines (hugest sellers)
4. therefore, many(not all!) space marines players have average, thus sub-par intelligence. i'm not accusing anyone in particular, and for the sake of the argument lets cosider me "dumb like the rest", but hear me out a little:

when have we seen space marine players realy revolutionise their playstyle from edition to edition?
i keep seeing powerfists in nearly every damned sergeant, as if they're still 15 pts, as if they're still 4 attacks on the carge.
i keep seeing anti-tank loaded tacticals, as if the squad is small like in the previous las-plas codex, and its bolters were few so losing their utility was ok...
i keep seeing tactical squads misused. in another thread, there was a player (no offense to him, i've made worse mistakes in the past) seriously considering a 250-pt(with rhino) worth all-comers tactical.

the tactical squad needs to be given a *role*. by playing "powerfist rhino extra armor, now get best special weapon and best heavy weapon" , you might be getting all the cool stuff, but you're not giving the squad a role. theories on using the tactical squad in a better way *can* and *do* exist.

there is no "tactical squad" unit; there are *the unit's variants*. i will accept SM complaints about tacticals the moment i see them properly studied and used. till then, suck it up.

Oh, it's the "sub-par" intelligence of Marine players that makes Tactical Squads an inferior choice. It's all so clear now.

Pyriel
13-02-2010, 00:55
Oh, it's the "sub-par" intelligence of Marine players that makes Tactical Squads an inferior choice. It's all so clear now.

thank you for your logical argument. it is oh-so-constructive. carefuly thought out, well-laid. see? i can be ironic too mate. its being *logical* and *presenting actual thought-out arguments* thats hard, and that matters.

that been said, i said i agree that tactical squads need work. but if you dont show the devs where they need fixing (by repeatedly using them and their variants) they will never get fixed. the developers have admitted to not playtest that extensively, so official games must playtest for them.

just like in the gym: no pain, no gain. nobody was born strong. its working out and feeling hurt the next day that slowly improved him.

Ozendorph
13-02-2010, 01:06
I didn't present an argument. I was thanking you for pointing out the flaws normally attributed to Tactical Marines are actually symptoms of Marine players' mental or educational shortcomings. That's a good thing to know!

starlight
13-02-2010, 01:48
Inability to stay on topic, and ignorant personal comments result in...

Thread Closed.

Don't invite me to take a more critical eye than I already have... :eyebrows:


starlight