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howlinmonkey
15-02-2010, 14:56
Since the relatively quick and early 2010 release of the tyrannids,can they be classified as the big bad of the 40k universe?Personally I'd like to see a prolonged necron onslaught with lots of new options.
What do you think?

catbarf
15-02-2010, 15:23
I'm afraid I see nothing but a complete non sequitur between Tyranids being the big bad and Necrons getting new options.

Vepr
15-02-2010, 15:23
Do you mean in the fluff or on the table top? Maybe in the fluff but I don't see it on the table top.

Hoodwink
15-02-2010, 15:28
I don't call Tyranids "Big Bad", but I'd put them in the middle. They are the kids sitting quietly in the back while the big boys beat up on the nerd herd who can't defend themselves.

Night Master
15-02-2010, 16:02
I've always thought Chaos, in the form of the Traitor Legions, was the "big bad" in 40k. They're irredeemably evil. They want to destroy the Imperium and enslave mankind.

I contrast, the Tyranids just kinda travel the universe like a locust swarm, eating everything. They're neither evil or good. Just a force of nature really.

Dave

LonelyPath
15-02-2010, 17:07
Agreeing with Night Master in seeing Nids as a force of nature. They couldn't care less about anyone or anything so long as they fulfill their need.

As for the Big Bad, there are alot of greyness in regards to who's good or evil in the 40k universe, but Necrons and Chaos are the 2 leading forces in who's the baddest of the bad.

Latro_
15-02-2010, 17:08
everyone knows the imperium is the baddest thing in the 40k galaxy.
running things and supressing the masses for 40,000 years.

azimaith
15-02-2010, 17:09
I think he means big bad as in the greatest threat. Yes, fluff wise Tyranid's are even more apocalyptic than before.

Latro_
15-02-2010, 17:19
I think he means big bad as in the greatest threat. Yes, fluff wise Tyranid's are even more apocalyptic than before.

my post still stands :D

azimaith
15-02-2010, 17:42
I can see it now:
After a millenia of conflict the Imperium of Man is finally defeated, the Tyranids descending upon Terra. In a desperate attempt to escape extinction the Imperium gathers together all its battle fleets and strips all remaining worlds of anything they can harvest and takes off into the cold void beyond the galactic rim in stasis fields triggered to turn off when they reach another habitable galaxy.

Thousands of years later upon the planet of Hu Arch Gamos Kanrav looks to the skies as a massive fleet is detected in system. He watches it intently as it closes to orbit and suddenly the sky is full of falling metal pods disgorging millions upon millions of horrifying ape-like creatures, totally unlike his hooved, insectoid form. They fall upon the defensive line in numbers beyond counting stabbing wildly with knives, firing bizarre weapons unlike the wholesome life shooting bio-guns his people use. Soon his base is overrun as a massive metal beast tears open the gates. Gamos Kanrav pushes a button sending the data core with the information on the attack plummeting into the bases interior before he is impaled upon a grotesque metal blade. The planet is stripped bare of all resources, especially biological ones which are used to feed the now hungry and awakened crew. From this planet the threat from beyond gained its name, The Humans, Devourer of Worlds.

After a millenia of conflict this galaxies natives are finally defeated, in a desperate attempt to escape extinction they gather together all of their bio-ships and strip all remaining worlds of anything they can harvest before taking off into the cold void beyond the galactic rim in stasis fields triggered to turn off when they reach another habitable galaxy. Suddenly they are thrown off course as they enter a warp storm and hurled ten thousand years into the past. Over the world of Tyran the skies darken as Magos Varnak peers into the heavens...

Tenken
15-02-2010, 18:10
I can see it now:
After a millenia of conflict the Imperium of Man is finally defeated, the Tyranids descending upon Terra. In a desperate attempt to escape extinction the Imperium gathers together all its battle fleets and strips all remaining worlds of anything they can harvest and takes off into the cold void beyond the galactic rim in stasis fields triggered to turn off when they reach another habitable galaxy.

Thousands of years later upon the planet of Hu Arch Gamos Kanrav looks to the skies as a massive fleet is detected in system. He watches it intently as it closes to orbit and suddenly the sky is full of falling metal pods disgorging millions upon millions of horrifying ape-like creatures, totally unlike his hooved, insectoid form. They fall upon the defensive line in numbers beyond counting stabbing wildly with knives, firing bizarre weapons unlike the wholesome life shooting bio-guns his people use. Soon his base is overrun as a massive metal beast tears open the gates. Gamos Kanrav pushes a button sending the data core with the information on the attack plummeting into the bases interior before he is impaled upon a grotesque metal blade. The planet is stripped bare of all resources, especially biological ones which are used to feed the now hungry and awakened crew. From this planet the threat from beyond gained its name, The Humans, Devourer of Worlds.

After a millenia of conflict this galaxies natives are finally defeated, in a desperate attempt to escape extinction they gather together all of their bio-ships and strip all remaining worlds of anything they can harvest before taking off into the cold void beyond the galactic rim in stasis fields triggered to turn off when they reach another habitable galaxy. Suddenly they are thrown off course as they enter a warp storm and hurled ten thousand years into the past. Over the world of Tyran the skies darken as Magos Varnak peers into the heavens...

I lol'd. Send this in with you resume to GW, they just might hire you.:p

howlinmonkey
16-02-2010, 14:32
Hi,
I didn't get the time to quantify my idea before,so here goes.I mean as background NOT solely fluff,more an active backdrop for the tabletop.
I do not mean for GW prolonged campaigns like Armageddon,which when it finished meant absolutely nothing to the 40k universe.What I'm getting at is that the fluff needs to become active,it has got to mean more gamewise than history.
Imagine if GW would do something like publish in WD regular updates on for example a Necron onslaught that went beyond their normal campaigns having a lasting effect on the game.
For example scenarios could reflect that with forces being cut off from resupply so player would be forced into heroic last stands as much of the fluff talks about anyway.Games really need to stray from balanced force engagements if fluff is going to make any sense gamewise.
Imagine for instance if you are playing a normal two player battle,if another player appears and suddenly announces a Necron deepstrike without warning.If players are already playing a game with severely restricted/depleted forces,would they band together or try to complete the mission?Randomness could be a way to integrate the fluff and feel that you are progressing the 40k universe.The problem with fixed games is you roughly know what will happen,what if a totally unexpected random element occured,how would players deal with it?
For background fluff to work,it has to be prolonged not for a few months but much longeruntil events change the 40k universe,i.e either the Necrons are driven back or continue.I could be cynical and suggest campaigns are only done to generate interest/sell stuff.It needs to change.
Thoughts?

Gutzmek
16-02-2010, 18:08
I think the OP is reffering to this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigBad) definition of "Big Bad" on the Tvtropes website. If that's true, then Nids would not qualify(The hivemind is more like a Eldritch Abomination (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EldritchAbomination))

TheShadowCow
16-02-2010, 21:03
I think the OP is reffering to this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigBad) definition of "Big Bad" on the Tvtropes website. If that's true, then Nids would not qualify(The hivemind is more like a Eldritch Abomination (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EldritchAbomination))

Plus HordeOfAlienLocusts :p

In fact, the Tyranids cut into a fair few of the "bad" tropes... composite race, composite tropes!

Bunnahabhain
17-02-2010, 01:00
I lol'd. Send this in with you resume to GW, they just might hire you.:p

Nah... It's well written, coherent, and has no obvious typos. GW would never stand for it!

BaronDG
17-02-2010, 01:27
On tyranids being a "force of nature":

We do have the right to define things as evil. Like cancer is an evil. Some people seem to think that people have to break some moral code to be evil, but that just isn't so. Some things are just inherently bad!

KingNova3000
17-02-2010, 02:54
Tyranids will eventually destroy the Galaxy. Destruction of the races will also lead to the destruction of the chaos gods, as their will be no souls left to feed them. Without war or violence there will be no Khorne. Without deceit of corruption there will be no Tzeentch. Without greed or lust there will be no Slaanesh. Without disease there will be no Nurgle.

BaronDG
17-02-2010, 03:04
I don't think so. Tyranids are still becoming more and more anthropomorphic the longer they stay in this galaxy and try to copy us in order to beat us. Eventually, they will be susceptible to our weaknesses as well and that is when Chaos enters the picture.

The genestealer fluff is interesting from this point of view. They do not want to be reconsumed by the hive mind. What are they willing to do to escape this fate? This might open up the possibility of pacts with the dark gods, in the way the old genestealer cults worked.

What happens when one of those get swallowed up by a hive fleet?

sliganian
17-02-2010, 14:49
On tyranids being a "force of nature":

We do have the right to define things as evil. Like cancer is an evil. Some people seem to think that people have to break some moral code to be evil, but that just isn't so. Some things are just inherently bad!

OT: Cancer isn't 'evil', it is biology gone hyper and awry. You are mis-applying sentience where none exists.

On topic, for Humans Chaos is the biggest threat as they technically cannot escape it so long as humans have emotions.

It could also be argued that Orks are a force of nature as well, as they live in a constant present with no 'plans' per se. They are just Orks.

MarshallSam
17-02-2010, 23:45
Nah... It's well written, coherent, and has no obvious typos. GW would never stand for it!

Sigged :D!!!

Voss
17-02-2010, 23:57
I don't really think the 40K universe has a big bad any more.

The 'nids are just locusts, consuming all the food sources.
The C'tan are just sending their mindless soldiers to round up dinner, and don't really have much feeling for the meat animals.

Chaos has more or less been rendered irrelevant by the scale of the above threats. After they wipe out all life in the galaxy, the temporary consciousness granted to some pesky emotions in the Warp will settle down and fade away.

The orks are just looking for the next scrap, but aren't any more malevolent than a couple of hooligans looking for a punch up.

The Imperium is busy trying to keep human stupidity under control, and while they aren't particularly good at it, in terms of scale, they aren't doing anything particularly wrong. Who cares about a couple million human deaths each year in the face of trillions of human beings? Economies of scale suggest irrelevance.


BaronDG- No, cancer is bad or unpleasant for the people involved. Evil involves some sort of motivation or intent. If someone cursed you to have cancer, you might consider them evil. But the cancer itself is no more evil than a rock that rolls down a cliff due to erosion and happens to brain a passerby.

BaronDG
18-02-2010, 02:37
While one definition of evil is "morally reprehensible", others are synonymous with disagreeable and harmful, both of which the tyranids are.

Individual tyranids are just slaves to the hive mind but the hive mind is Evil!!!

Master Jeridian
18-02-2010, 02:56
I think Tyranids are the greatest threat to the galaxy (even ignoring the hype every army gets in it's Codex).

Chaos- well, it's a bit of a joke TBH. It used to be scary. Now it's a parady of itself. It's the impotent raging nerd in the Eye, screaming at absent Daddy whilst cutting himself. It's also the Unkillable Enemy, this may fascinate some, but if you can't kill something, there's no hope- so you might as well ignore it, IRL worrying won't help, and in a fictional story you already know what will happen, boring- like invincible horror monsters like Jason. Grave threats, with a tiny hope of victory (like Tyranids), are far more interesting. That tiny chance you can survive makes the threat all the more threatening.

Orks- Theoretically similar threat as Nids, they love killing and there's thausands of them. But it's repeated time and again, that by their very nature they will never become organised on a galactic level. By nature they fight each other in a perpetual state of mini-empires.

Tau- Really...

Eldar- They've resigned themselves to death.

Necrons- Close contender to Nids, but they are for all extents and purposes finite. There are only so many Necron Warriors, they may be near-immortal, but I don't think they are all gods. A Necron Warrior may be destroyed in something extreme like a Warp Rift or a supernova. And each loss depletes the force.

The Tyranids on the other hand can only grow more numerous with each victory, where a Chaos or Imperial force would lose men and materials to capture a bombed, ruined world. That ruined world will be sucked dry to increase the size of a Tyranid force that captured it.
The Tyranid burn and move on means that there is no option for other armies to reconquer lost ground or any method of cutting off Tyranid supply lines and resource worlds- for they need none.

The Tyranids are also the only force that can't be considered evil, any more than a thunderstorm, a cancer or a lion. They are all mindless, simply existing by nature or instinct. They kill you not because it brings them pleasure, but simply because they exist that way.

My favourite Tyranid quote (from memory) is an Imperial commander, he hates the Tyranids not because they hate him, but because they are incapable of feeling hate.

BaronDG
18-02-2010, 03:16
I think Tyranids are the greatest threat to the galaxy (even ignoring the hype every army gets in it's Codex).

Chaos- well, it's a bit of a joke TBH. It used to be scary. Now it's a parady of itself. It's the impotent raging nerd in the Eye, screaming at absent Daddy whilst cutting himself. It's also the Unkillable Enemy, this may fascinate some, but if you can't kill something, there's no hope- so you might as well ignore it, IRL worrying won't help, and in a fictional story you already know what will happen, boring- like invincible horror monsters like Jason. Grave threats, with a tiny hope of victory (like Tyranids), are far more interesting. That tiny chance you can survive makes the threat all the more threatening.

Orks- Theoretically similar threat as Nids, they love killing and there's thausands of them. But it's repeated time and again, that by their very nature they will never become organised on a galactic level. By nature they fight each other in a perpetual state of mini-empires.

Tau- Really...

Eldar- They've resigned themselves to death.

Necrons- Close contender to Nids, but they are for all extents and purposes finite. There are only so many Necron Warriors, they may be near-immortal, but I don't think they are all gods. A Necron Warrior may be destroyed in something extreme like a Warp Rift or a supernova. And each loss depletes the force.

The Tyranids on the other hand can only grow more numerous with each victory, where a Chaos or Imperial force would lose men and materials to capture a bombed, ruined world. That ruined world will be sucked dry to increase the size of a Tyranid force that captured it.
The Tyranid burn and move on means that there is no option for other armies to reconquer lost ground or any method of cutting off Tyranid supply lines and resource worlds- for they need none.

The Tyranids are also the only force that can't be considered evil, any more than a thunderstorm, a cancer or a lion. They are all mindless, simply existing by nature or instinct. They kill you not because it brings them pleasure, but simply because they exist that way.

My favourite Tyranid quote (from memory) is an Imperial commander, he hates the Tyranids not because they hate him, but because they are incapable of feeling hate.

I agree that chaos is in a sad state. It used to be a constant moral threat, with cults and uprisings, not just near the Eye, but all over the great Imperium. Their leaders were Renegades, from all walks of Imperial life, not just marines. And they were also incompatible with each other so you knew that if the four gods were to reunite, humanity would be lost.

And now, they unite freely and the threat has never been lesser... :cries:

Tenken
18-02-2010, 03:23
I think the hive mind is a pretty malevolent threat. Individually tyranids aren't very malevolent, they don't derive any pleasure (appearantly) from killing, they just do it. However the hive mind seems like it might. Certainly tyranids are numerous enough that they don't NEED to invade and consume every planet, however, yet, they do. The hive mind I think has some sort of alien malevolence, completely incomprehensible, but utterly wicked.

Yeah chaos seems like a total joke now. Before it seemed like everything was under constant threat from chaos, but now it seems like they're pretty well confined to the Eye, and despite being united they can't even punch through Cadia, CADIA!! Just a planet occupied by simple imperial guardsmen, not even space marines! That's just awful.

Orks represent a constant threat, but not an all consuming one, like nids. An individual system might have serious worries about orks (armageddon comes to mind), but the imperium as a whole doesn't seem to worry to much about the ork threat. Unless the orks were all united under one banner the imperium can commit enough forces to quash nearly any individual orkish uprising.

tuebor
18-02-2010, 03:30
Hi,
I didn't get the time to quantify my idea before,so here goes.I mean as background NOT solely fluff,more an active backdrop for the tabletop.
I do not mean for GW prolonged campaigns like Armageddon,which when it finished meant absolutely nothing to the 40k universe.What I'm getting at is that the fluff needs to become active,it has got to mean more gamewise than history.
Imagine if GW would do something like publish in WD regular updates on for example a Necron onslaught that went beyond their normal campaigns having a lasting effect on the game.
For example scenarios could reflect that with forces being cut off from resupply so player would be forced into heroic last stands as much of the fluff talks about anyway.Games really need to stray from balanced force engagements if fluff is going to make any sense gamewise.
Imagine for instance if you are playing a normal two player battle,if another player appears and suddenly announces a Necron deepstrike without warning.If players are already playing a game with severely restricted/depleted forces,would they band together or try to complete the mission?Randomness could be a way to integrate the fluff and feel that you are progressing the 40k universe.The problem with fixed games is you roughly know what will happen,what if a totally unexpected random element occured,how would players deal with it?
For background fluff to work,it has to be prolonged not for a few months but much longeruntil events change the 40k universe,i.e either the Necrons are driven back or continue.I could be cynical and suggest campaigns are only done to generate interest/sell stuff.It needs to change.
Thoughts?

I suppose I'm not 100% sure what it is you want. It sounds like you want more interesting scenarios, which I think most people want. Luckily, the Battle Missions book is coming out soon and even more than that there's nothing stopping you from writing your own scenarios.

However I'm really not sure what you're after when you talk about changing the background of 40k.

Master Jeridian
18-02-2010, 03:37
I think the hive mind is a pretty malevolent threat. Individually tyranids aren't very malevolent, they don't derive any pleasure (appearantly) from killing, they just do it. However the hive mind seems like it might. Certainly tyranids are numerous enough that they don't NEED to invade and consume every planet, however, yet, they do. The hive mind I think has some sort of alien malevolence, completely incomprehensible, but utterly wicked.


Earlier interpretations of Tyranids have the Hive Mind and the Shadow in the Warp being more Lovecraftian/gestalt consciousness than twirly moustache villain at the heart.
It was more the collective hunger and imperative to feed of the billions of Tyranid creatures than a single directing queen or villain.
From what I've heard of the 5th Ed rendition- of Hannibal-like Lictors and Cylon-like Special characters this has been thrown out for cartoon bad-guys like Chaos.

Your second statement is very confusing. It's precisely because the Tyranids are so numerous, and multiply so much that they need to expand, to consume and to obliterate. This is no different to any animal, any species- be it bacteria or locust. The difference with Tyranids are they have evolved to bridge the gap between worlds.
The lack of a 'malevolent' genius villain at the Tyranid centre is precisely what appeals to me, I don't like cartoon bad guys who are bad because the script demand it. I prefer villains who do not consider themselves bad, but have their own motives and needs- in the Tyranid case it gets even less selfish than that, they are just animals, animals on steroids.

The Tyranid style of alien (like Star Trek Borg, or of course Cthulu) is so scary because it isn't out to get you, you are irrelevant, you are below it's ability to comprehend you. The need to 'project' motives and human sentience onto them says it all.

AngryAngel
18-02-2010, 05:01
I'm going to go out on a limb and call the Nids evil. While the vast majority of them have no minds and simply do as they are commanded too. There is a conciousness behind their actions at the core of it. Which drives them not to just eat till full, but to wipe everything out. Nothing natural about that at all. They are a sentient plague. Simply because they don't focus on that sentience and its motivations, doesn't mean they don't exist.

However their singular drive will also eventually be their own doom. As they wish to glutton till nothing remains, and then what ? They'll have to eat each other and eventually die off.

Are they the big bad ? Nope. I don't think there is one for 40k.

Griffindale
18-02-2010, 06:03
It could also be argued that Orks are a force of nature as well, as they live in a constant present with no 'plans' per se. They are just Orks.

You just made either orks sound like the Joker or the Joker sound like orks...

Master Jeridian
18-02-2010, 10:37
I'm going to go out on a limb and call the Nids evil. While the vast majority of them have no minds and simply do as they are commanded too. There is a conciousness behind their actions at the core of it. Which drives them not to just eat till full, but to wipe everything out. Nothing natural about that at all. They are a sentient plague. Simply because they don't focus on that sentience and its motivations, doesn't mean they don't exist.

However their singular drive will also eventually be their own doom. As they wish to glutton till nothing remains, and then what ? They'll have to eat each other and eventually die off.


I'm going to have to agree to disagree. I find this 'humanising' to be a lack of imagination- which seems to have caught on at GW in 5th.

You've just described every animal from bacteria to ants to sharks.

Every animal is instinctively driven to consume and multiple at all costs, by any means. The only thing stopping them wiping out everything else are predators that kill them, natural conditions that prevent their survival (desert rats in the antartic for example) and lack of infinite resources.
They do all this without a moustache twirling villain in his volcano lair planning it.

I see the Tyranids as the end result of an evolution that consumed their homeworld and any other animal on it, and evolved a means to reach the stars. All without the need for sentience, free will or individual thought.

sliganian
18-02-2010, 14:06
You just made either orks sound like the Joker or the Joker sound like orks...

"You lotz want ta see a magik trick?" :D

AngryAngel
18-02-2010, 17:11
Well you wish to see them as non sentient, incapable of understanding concepts of good or evil. That is fine, as really how can either of us know for sure. They truely don't go into the hive mind and how it thinks, what it thinks. It's not perhaps a normal villian. However, it can and I believe is, evil in its intent.

Though as I said, who is to know for sure, no one here created the Nids afterall.