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Plague.Monk
17-02-2010, 08:45
Digging around in various sources of Warhammer 40K lore, I came across the list of different SM Chapters. I saw the Celestial Lions, clicked on it (honestly cuz the name sounded cool), and read a bit into them. So how do these various "wiped out" chapters work? Do people still make armies of them, or do they have any special roster such as the Blood Angels or Black Templars? I'm basically trying to understand how all this works so forgive my noobish-ness. How would HQs work for them and such?

AndrewGPaul
17-02-2010, 08:51
What do you mean "how do they work"? You buy some Space Marines, paint them the appropriate colour and work out an army using Codex: Space Marines. Most people don't work out the exact history of their games, and the exact date they take place, and there's no rule saying you can only use characters if they existed at the same time and place (so you can use Usakar Creed versus a Tyranid army).

Use the Black Templars or Blood angels codex if you want. There's no fluff on most of these Chapters deliberatey - make stuff up yourself.

Plague.Monk
17-02-2010, 08:55
What do you mean "how do they work"? You buy some Space Marines, paint them the appropriate colour and work out an army using Codex: Space Marines. Most people don't work out the exact history of their games, and the exact date they take place, and there's no rule saying you can only use characters if they existed at the same time and place (so you can use Usakar Creed versus a Tyranid army).

Use the Black Templars or Blood angels codex if you want. There's no fluff on most of these Chapters deliberatey - make stuff up yourself.

K thats basically what I thought but wasn't sure. Thanks mang :skull:

AndrewGPaul
17-02-2010, 08:57
Basically, Dark Angels, Blood Angels (and their successors), Black Templars and Space Wolves have their own codex, and everyone else uses Codex: Space Marines

Plague.Monk
17-02-2010, 08:58
Basically, Dark Angels, Blood Angels (and their successors), Black Templars and Space Wolves have their own codex, and everyone else uses Codex: Space Marines

perfect :) I guess I didn't realize how "customizable" everything is in the Warhammer Universe hah.

:skull:

Plague.Monk
17-02-2010, 09:17
Ok say this is just a spitball idea, but if I wanted to maybe "copy" the Space Wolves codex, but since Lions are based around a Pride, could i essentially use their rules/units, except make them lions basically? Because, correct me if i'm wrong, Space Wolves have units with different names than their SM counterparts but do basically the same thing?

again, pardon my ignorance :skull:

iseeleadpeople
17-02-2010, 09:34
Of course mate! Just let the person you are playing against know what is what i.e golden claws terminators ( made that up sorry if it sounds naff) are the same as wolf guard terminators.

Most of all have fun!

Prokrustes
17-02-2010, 09:35
Ok say this is just a spitball idea, but if I wanted to maybe "copy" the Space Wolves codex, but since Lions are based around a Pride, could i essentially use their rules/units, except make them lions basically? Because, correct me if i'm wrong, Space Wolves have units with different names than their SM counterparts but do basically the same thing?

again, pardon my ignorance :skull:

Im not sure if do understand you right with the "copy" part. But I presume you are asking if you can play the Celestian Lions as Space Wolves? If that is the question, sure you can do that. Rename "Wolf packs" to "Pride", Thunderwolves to Thunder/Mountain/Whateverlions etc. It should all be ok, as long as you are using a (any of it will do, except maybe Chaos Space Marines) Space Marines codex (Dark Angels, Space Marines, Blood Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves). And explaining your opponent which codex you are using and what the units are supposed to be if it isnt obvious. You can also rename Tactical squads to prides or whatever, be creative.


" Because, correct me if i'm wrong, Space Wolves have units with different names than their SM counterparts but do basically the same thing?"
Depends what you understand under the same thing. All Space Marines (even Chaos) do basically the same thing. However, there are differences. Space Wolves are better in close combat and assault then normal space marines and some other differences. But use whichever SM codex you think represents your Celestial Lions the best.

Hope that helps.

Plague.Monk
17-02-2010, 09:41
Fantastic :) When I stay up to late my mind gets overly creative and I think of random things haha. I even went as far as to concoct and idea in my head for an HQ:

Essentially, you'd take Canis Wolfborn, lob off the head and tail of his wolf mount and put on the head/tail from the High Elf Chariot in from Fantasy (the white lions that pull the chariot). Then, switch the halo around his head for any of the more standard ones (just preference) and the shoulder pads for either the shoulder from the High Elf Chariot (the driver has a neat lion shaped one) or even grab some of those lion head ones I saw in the Rumours thread.

I'm going to a local game store tomorrow and going to thumb through some of the books and talk with my buddy up there to decide everything. I thought I was pretty dead set on Tyranid, and now. . . This just seems kinda cool hah.

Know any places to get Lion style bits? Such as the lion head on the Ogre Hunters chest in my avatar?

Prokrustes
17-02-2010, 10:35
www.bitsandkits.co.uk
www.bitzbox.co.uk

And there are alot more, check google. Its just those 2 were I get my bitz from and I cant complain so far.

Plague.Monk
17-02-2010, 10:40
Thanks man :skull:

Already found a couple things, like the individual Lion chariots and a crest that could be used for many many things :) I need to go to sleep/hide my credit card before I start buying a whole bunch of stuff and wake up to a very sour significant other >_>

Prokrustes
17-02-2010, 16:46
This could be interesting for you:

http://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/conversion_parts/big/lion_shoulderpads.jpg

DeadlySquirrel
17-02-2010, 16:51
Ok say this is just a spitball idea, but if I wanted to maybe "copy" the Space Wolves codex, but since Lions are based around a Pride, could i essentially use their rules/units, except make them lions basically? Because, correct me if i'm wrong, Space Wolves have units with different names than their SM counterparts but do basically the same thing?

again, pardon my ignorance :skull:




NO MORE PROXYING!!! please. =]

Inquisitor Engel
17-02-2010, 17:01
NO MORE PROXYING!!! please. =]

Doing an entire army as 'Counts-as' is not the same as proxying.

Counts-as = Creative.

Proxy = Lazy (or determining if buying a unit is worth it for maybe a friendly game or two)

SPYDER68
17-02-2010, 17:33
http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.browse&category_id=17


and to the main site.

http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/

They have some good marine bits, Celestial Lion Shoulder pads etc included.

enigma-96
17-02-2010, 19:55
I don't know if this is helpful to you or not but right now my side side project ; is an armaggedon crusade army made up of various different chapters. I'm using the Space Wolves codex as well since Grey Hunters are good representatives of most marines anyway and Blood Claws make good Black Templar, not too mention how good Mark of the Wulfen represents Excorsists :evilgrin:, but back to the point in this army I'm making 1, maybe 2 if I like how they play, Lone Wolf units but to fit them to the theme I'm making them Celestial Lions. It goes well with their "die with their brothers attitude" and makes sense since only 96? remain, lol no apothecaries, and is incredbily flavourful while still being historically correct, as one can get in this universe anyway.

So if you wanted to make an "accurate", obviously subjective, army you could always do something similar but instead of having only 1 or 2 Celestial Lions you could go all out, I pray for your wallet if you do, and make 96 of the most characterful and badass looking Lions out there. In this case I would suggest the Space Wolf Codex since any of the survivng Tac squads will be alot hardier and a little more brutal than your average marine. Likewise you could take 2-3 Lone Wolves to represent the Lions who have already succumbed to their chapter's despair and have resolved themselves to die in battle. To tell you the truth if I saw that army, most likely on the Apoc Table, I would be seriously impressed.

As for the modelling aspect it's been mentioned before but it's worth rementioning, Chapter House Studios makes great shoulder pads nad their Celtic shield makes for a pretty good Lion-y storm shield.

GL with w/e you do and don't worry about which marine codex you use, if anyone says no to it their being quite the little dink and probably aren't worth playing anyways.

DeadlySquirrel
17-02-2010, 20:42
too many people use wolf rules saying it fits the theme better. the wolf book should be used for wolves and those of their geneseed

Plague.Monk
17-02-2010, 20:45
I think the look of the Black Templars with some of the skins/lion shoulder pads would fit the lions well. When I think lions I think very "royal" looking, strong, etc. The tabard on the Templars could be grounds for some very cool possibilities with a lionhead logo :skull:

enigma-96
17-02-2010, 21:32
The Black Templar models are very nice and their tabards would give a pretty nice royal look, maybe add one or two Dark Angel robed guys to act as a sort of "walking flag" if you get what I mean. Though I'm not sure any lion decals exist so I hope you're good at freehanding :p

Quick question, are you going for the whole army being royalish or just some of them with the rest being almost serf like

Mr. Squirrel I think you're confusing power gamers with actual fluff gamers, yes they do exist I am a testament to that...sigh so many losses for the sake of good storytelling.

Look at it this way Marines are supposed to be this really awesome commando force, not stealth wise but doctrine and size wise, that is good at taking on most enemy forces but is not great at any one job. They are meant to be these really elite soldiers and yet vanilla marines, along with some of the other ones, lack some weapons that any militia man and his mother would take in this day and age. Looking at the various codecii I see that the space wolves are one of the few marine armies that is intelligent enough to carry a pistol and knife along with their bolter, hmmmmmm is it that vanilla marines are just not strong enough to carry a pistol, knife AND a bolter :eyebrows: Seriously it isn't the players fault for wanting to play, you know, actual marines instead of 'sort of' marines. Fluff wise we can never have true marines but atleast the wolves get close to it.

I do agree though that WAY too many people use the 'it fits my army better' argument and then proceed to spam Rune Priests and the like, well guess what? When Blood Angels comes out in July all those people will switch codecii and the Wolves will consist of two people those who play wolves, and those who use it for fluff reasons. I don't see why anyone couldn't use the codex if it actually fits their theme especially if they take measures to only use options that are right for their army. Besides it is Mr. Monk's, or anyone else's for that matter, army so why can't they do what they will with it?

Plague.Monk
17-02-2010, 21:57
Essentially my idea would be to use the HQs andsome of hte troops with the royal tabard/black templar look. Since there aren't many left, I figured I'd have some more "normal" looking ones that would be considered recruits if you will, and the ones with the tabard be slightly worn looking. The Lion shoulderplates would be pretty universal though, because they're just so cool. I also like the Emperor's Champion a lot, particularly because of the leafcrown on his head. Pain't that gold with the blue helmet and the tabard being a blue fade with gold trim and a lions head, itd look awesome :skull: this would be a future project for me i think, once I get a little more established with my painting skills once again. I used to paint figures for my buddy way back when, but haven't in years.

Col. Dash
18-02-2010, 01:55
While I am all about the idea and say go for it, using space wolves for what is in a sense a codex chapter is kind of silly. I like the idea of black templars though, they would be very fitting as well I think. Those shoulder pads are pretty cool, definately look into that.

Lord Lorne Walkier
18-02-2010, 22:46
I would just use the SM codex. Any way have you worked out your Fluff?? Is your army the last of the Lions? are they trying to rebuild their chapter? are they Renegade?

Plague.Monk
18-02-2010, 23:20
I would just use the SM codex. Any way have you worked out your Fluff?? Is your army the last of the Lions? are they trying to rebuild their chapter? are they Renegade?

it would be combination of rebuilding on top of the last remaining Lions. Think of it as coming back for blood, a thirst for revenge while trying to recapture past nobility or glory.

the story behind them says fighting til every one of them is wiped out, and thats what I'd like to capture if I decide to partake in this heavily modded adventure. I figured they'd have to borrow Apothecaries and the like, or since time frame can be an factor, train new ones and they reemerge from the fallen. A comeback story.:skull:

Plague.Monk
18-02-2010, 23:22
"Thanks to recent events (such as the Arkio Insurrection), their numbers have been severely depleted. Under threat of extinction, and in order to quickly replenish their numbers, they were forced to ask their kindred Chapters from subsequent Foundings for a tithe of warriors from the related Chapters' pools of candidate Space Marines."

from the Warhammer 40K wiki page for Blood Angels.

Kind of sounds like the BAs back story fits my vision haha.

Super Ninja
18-02-2010, 23:59
Just so you know, you don't have to have A CL army that is so small. Your army could represent a force of marines from before the 3rd Armageddon war, when they weren't on the verge of extinction.

My 2 cents

Plague.Monk
19-02-2010, 00:00
Just so you know, you don't have to have A CL army that is so small. Your army could represent a force of marines from before the 3rd Armageddon war, when they weren't on the verge of extinction.

My 2 cents

this is true, a pre-assault army.

Lord Lorne Walkier
19-02-2010, 00:06
I would stick with a post Armageddon force. Why pick them if not for the cool fluff. I do like the borrowed medics. Could have them keep their parent chapter colors. would be great conversation pieces and would make your force quite unique.

Plague.Monk
19-02-2010, 00:11
I would stick with a post Armageddon force. Why pick them if not for the cool fluff. I do like the borrowed medics. Could have them keep their parent chapter colors. would be great conversation pieces and would make your force quite unique.

thats what I was thinking, just have to decide on a good chapter whos colors compliment the Lions haha. Suggestions?

PreacherBoyRoy
19-02-2010, 01:07
from what i have seen of the lions they look very cool. if GW made a army out of them, it would take alot of willpower to keep me from buying them. the main colors I've seen them use, are white, gold and blue. white being the base color. I would love to see the finished product once you get them done.

Plague.Monk
19-02-2010, 02:54
Quick questions. If i decided to do the tabard models from Black Templars, should I paint the tabard blue, white, off white, or what color? I can't decide.

PreacherBoyRoy
19-02-2010, 03:26
my first instinct says off white, but it really depends on how you plan on painting the rest of the modal. if you choose to paint the base armor white I'd use off white with some blue lining on the tabards. if you make the armor off white I'd use blue. give the tabard a kind of mane feel, which means making it darker then the rest of the modal.

Plague.Monk
19-02-2010, 03:36
my first instinct says off white, but it really depends on how you plan on painting the rest of the modal. if you choose to paint the base armor white I'd use off white with some blue lining on the tabards. if you make the armor off white I'd use blue. give the tabard a kind of mane feel, which means making it darker then the rest of the modal.

From what I read they have gold armor with blue helm/shoulders. so I was going to do that, a gold with a bit of tarnish, and some rich royal blue with yellow/gold eyes. I was thinking th off white with like a blue lining and a lion in the center. . . probably blue as well with a gold eye

PreacherBoyRoy
19-02-2010, 03:46
should look awesome!

Plague.Monk
19-02-2010, 03:50
I'm not totally sure though. . I'll only be using some of the Black Templar models with the tabard, maybe the HQ/Elite. Helbrecht would probably be used, or Emperor's Champion. Also considering Canis Wolfborn and modding out that Lion like i mentioned before.

TheSanityAssassin
19-02-2010, 07:06
As an aside, a guy who used to play at our LGS had a FANTASTIC Celestial Lions army that he played as Lost and the Damned....tricked out but small number veteran marines, with "Guard" forces they basically coerced into helping them continue to fight.

Sadly he quit when Lost and the Damned became impossible....too much work put into a force he'd never be able to play at the time.

enigma-96
19-02-2010, 08:31
Assuming that the borrowed apothecaries would most likely be from one of the chapters that took part in the 3rd War for Armageddon here is a list of most of the chapters that took part:

Salamanders* Ulitmate Nice Guys
Black Templar* Very honourable chapter that respects sacrifice for the Emperor
Omega Marines* Likely an Ultramarines founding
Raptors
Angels Porphyr
Silver Skulls* Ultramarines founding
Widowmakers
White Scars
Marines Malevolent+ Ultimate @$$holes
Exorcists+ Pet project of the inquisition and the Grey Knights, gene-seed too tainted too risk accidentally passing on
Storm Lords
Storm Giants
Sons of Guillaman* Ultramarines founding
Flesh Tearers+ Corrupt gene-seed, kinda @$$holes

If you want to read up on each of them you can always go here,
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Space_Marine_Chapters
Not sure if I'm allowed to give this link or not so if I should remove it someone just tell me and I will.

Anyways, out of those chapters the starred ones are the most likely to provide aid, reasons given, and those with a plus sign are the least likely to give aid, reasons given. I'm working on the assumption that the Celestial Lions are a Ultramarines founding since they seem to share a lot of similarities with them and the other Ultramarine foundings so the willingness of 'brother' chapters would be there.

Brother Loki
19-02-2010, 09:39
Some excellent Lion shoulder pads which you might find useful for your veterans/honour guard or whatever. The helmets aren't bad either.

http://www.sciborminiatures.com/en_,shop.php?group=72

Plague.Monk
19-02-2010, 21:43
Assuming that the borrowed apothecaries would most likely be from one of the chapters that took part in the 3rd War for Armageddon here is a list of most of the chapters that took part:

Salamanders* Ulitmate Nice Guys
Black Templar* Very honourable chapter that respects sacrifice for the Emperor
Omega Marines* Likely an Ultramarines founding
Raptors
Angels Porphyr
Silver Skulls* Ultramarines founding
Widowmakers
White Scars
Marines Malevolent+ Ultimate @$$holes
Exorcists+ Pet project of the inquisition and the Grey Knights, gene-seed too tainted too risk accidentally passing on
Storm Lords
Storm Giants
Sons of Guillaman* Ultramarines founding
Flesh Tearers+ Corrupt gene-seed, kinda @$$holes

If you want to read up on each of them you can always go here,
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Space_Marine_Chapters
Not sure if I'm allowed to give this link or not so if I should remove it someone just tell me and I will.

Anyways, out of those chapters the starred ones are the most likely to provide aid, reasons given, and those with a plus sign are the least likely to give aid, reasons given. I'm working on the assumption that the Celestial Lions are a Ultramarines founding since they seem to share a lot of similarities with them and the other Ultramarine foundings so the willingness of 'brother' chapters would be there.

and the Ultramarines color scheme would work well with the Lions haha. Thanks man! :skull:

Plague.Monk
19-02-2010, 22:20
This might be a nice tabard color too, except with a Lion Head in the middle.

http://common.allakhazam.com/images/9/6/9627abf1084bb2fb4fb9c7e5820ef823.png

Lord Lorne Walkier
20-02-2010, 00:13
Assuming that the borrowed apothecaries would most likely be from one of the chapters that took part in the 3rd War for Armageddon here is a list of most of the chapters that took part:

Salamanders* Ulitmate Nice Guys
Black Templar* Very honourable chapter that respects sacrifice for the Emperor
Omega Marines* Likely an Ultramarines founding
Raptors
Angels Porphyr
Silver Skulls* Ultramarines founding
Widowmakers
White Scars
Marines Malevolent+ Ultimate @$$holes
Exorcists+ Pet project of the inquisition and the Grey Knights, gene-seed too tainted too risk accidentally passing on
Storm Lords
Storm Giants
Sons of Guillaman* Ultramarines founding
Flesh Tearers+ Corrupt gene-seed, kinda @$$holes

If you want to read up on each of them you can always go here,
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Space_Marine_Chapters
Not sure if I'm allowed to give this link or not so if I should remove it someone just tell me and I will.

Anyways, out of those chapters the starred ones are the most likely to provide aid, reasons given, and those with a plus sign are the least likely to give aid, reasons given. I'm working on the assumption that the Celestial Lions are a Ultramarines founding since they seem to share a lot of similarities with them and the other Ultramarine foundings so the willingness of 'brother' chapters would be there.

Personally, i would go with the Raptors. 2nd founding chapter of the Raven Guard. The more different your army the better IMO. (RG Fan boy) I would also pick a chapter that contrasted with your main force so people would be forced to ask the question, Ummm whats up with that guy?