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View Full Version : A new side project; Dark Elves vs. Warriors of Chaos



Razakel
17-02-2010, 21:06
Hello everyone,

Some of you may know me from my Battle Reports (see my signature). I intend to keep playing my Dwarf army, however the same army over and over can be tremendously boring as some of you may know.

As a result I've decided to pick up a new army, just as a small side project, since I've got a €40 gift voucher for Games Workshop. What I can't decide however is which army to pick, I've narrowed it down to two possible choices, everything else is 100% excluded so please don't mention them.


Dark Elves

Pros:

#1: I love Malus Darkblade, the character, the books and the model (especially Spite!) Yes, this point is worthy of mention since I like using special characters.

#2: I like the Executioners, the Black Guard, some of the Magic items, Corsairs and Cold One Knights.

#3: I like the playstyle of a fast-moving, hard-hitting army that has some interesting add-ons (Hydra's, Reaper Bolt Throwers etc.)

#4: They would be almost the direct opposite of my Dwarves which would be great, the Dwarf playstyle is fine, but I need a break.

Cons:

#1: I have an infinite amount of disdain for the Dark Elf Magic phase and spells. I think the spells are boring, and the spells that aren't boring are retarded.

#2: The army is extremely fragile and it would take some serious getting used to.

#3: Colour-wise I'm not sure I like it, lots of heavy purples and blacks, with only a few bits of silver and gold to make up for it.

#4: I wouldn't want to be called a cheeseball, yes this is a valid point, it contributes to my enjoyment of the game.



Warriors of Chaos

Pros:

#1: I've always wanted a Tzeentch army (before Gateway even existed), I like the concept.

#2: They seem like a very all purpose army, the basic Warriors can carve up pretty much anything.

#3: The army is well supported by the Warshrine, Hellcannons, monsters and Magic.

#4: Speaking of Magic, I love the Tzeentch lore. So much random disruption, the true embodiment of chaos.

#5: I like the models and the colour scheme, the blue seems much better than dark purple.

Cons:

#1: The army is very expensive points wise, and few in number (this could also be a pro, since I have fewer models to paint).

#2: My obsession with Magic could go horribly wrong with a few bad miscasts.

#3: The army can be very unpredictable, some of the Magic items cause Stupidity and the Hellcannons misfire chart is one of the ugliest things I've ever seen.

#4: I don't like footslogging Marauders, which would leave me quite vulnerable on the infantry front.


Right now I'm leaning towards Chaos, but I'm still not sure. Convincing well thought-out arguments are good:

"lol dubble hydra scrub" is not.

So what do you guys think? Which army do you think I should get?

willowdark
17-02-2010, 21:42
Not taking infantry does not make you vulnerable to infantry. You're hardly handicapping yourself if you don't want Marauders. Marauder Horsemen are about the best fast cav in the game right now, so you can build an effective core, for cheap. That combined with your Tzeentch, I'm assuming disc-riding, Sorcerers, you'll have a very fast army that can pick infantry apart. Not to mention that Knights can take most infantry to front anyway.

Now, I'm a DE player, and I love the army for so many reasons, but every day that goes by I find myself wishing I had the resources to build a WoC army. It is a great army.

Warriors is a limited army though, while DE can be built in a number of effective ways. Since you've already ruled out Marauders and you've committed to Tzeentch, that doesn't leave you a lot of options. If you buy Warrior infantry, you'll go through points too fast and be forced into mandatory Knights and not much else.

Most people complain that WoC is only Sorcerers and Knights, and so gets boring. I''m drawn to it because that's exactly what I want, Nurgle Magic in my case. I've written lists that include Nurgle Sorcerers, with both Marauder and Warrior infantry blocks, remember that a Palanquin will fill out your rank bonus, Marauder Horsemen, Knights and 2 Hellcannons, and I love everything about it, but I'd imagine that if you go into it without knowing for sure what you want you could get frustrated quickly.

DE on the other hand, have so many good choices that you can spend a lot of time exploring the army and always finding something to be excited about. I think they make a great primary army, but if you just want a small secondary army then Chaos might be a better fit.

Dantès
17-02-2010, 23:00
Are you settled on these two? Because i think a great idea for a next army would be...

Just kidding :p

I put my vote in for WoC, though I do love the Dark Elves. It really comes down to

a) $$$
b) 'side-project,' which i assume you mean that they'll just be something you do for fun, as DElf really need to be an all-or-nothing affair.
c) more interesting magic
d) the elite feel of them is awesome
e) controlling the magic phase is lots of fun
f) marauder horsemen are SO awesome
g) so are chaos knights

Jack of Blades
17-02-2010, 23:06
f) marauder horsemen are SO awesome
g) so are chaos knights

Maybe I'm just tired, but for your information I found the way you put this quite the chuckle :p

Roark
17-02-2010, 23:41
Why don't you like footslogging Marauders? Is it the models? I found that mine look fantastic with all the spare heads from the Horsemen sprues.

Plus, what's not to love about a unit of 20 dudes with all the best facets of ITP, FC, WS4 and a 4+AS in CC for a measly 150pts? Or 25 for 180?

I love Marauders. They're so damn cheap. With 3 big blocks and the stubborn banner, they continually get underestimated, with SCR coming out the wazoo. Oh, and none of those 60 models is the same. Each one is unique.

willowdark
17-02-2010, 23:46
Rules-wise Marauders are great. If the problem is models, you could always use beastmen.

Roark
17-02-2010, 23:47
My vote went to WoC, due in large part to how cheap it is to build. So many plastic kits of decent quality. The only mucking around I had to do with my army was replace the old, puny horses of 3 mounted Chaos Sorcerors and a Chaos Chariot. I just bought a set of 5 new Chaos Knight steeds on Ebay. Lots of vendors sell the bits.

With Delves, you are looking at some pretty expen$ive Dark Riders, harpies and Cold One Chariots IF you actually want them to look good.

Narcissus
18-02-2010, 04:04
My obsession with Magic could go horribly wrong with a few bad miscasts.


You can solve this by talking the Infernal Puppet. Allows you to prevent miscasts from being quite so bad.

You can do WoC with a nice low model count. All cavalry/mostly cavalry could be an exciting change from dwarves! If you want a different playstyle don't take the Hellcannon!

willowdark
18-02-2010, 05:08
Well, except the Hellcannon causes Terror, is unbreakable with T6 and 5 wounds, and follows the rules for monsters and handlers, meaning it skirmishes through difficult terrain and can declare charges. It also rampages 3d6".

Don't fall into the trap of thinking it's just a fancy stone thrower. The Hellcannon is a beast at guarding a flank. That's why I advocate taking two, one to shoot and one to guard the flank like a spawn.

Condottiere
18-02-2010, 10:56
If you're playing Dwarves and want a change, then you switch to Elves, and Dark Elves will give you the flexibility that you seem to want to experience. The bedrock of WoC are the Chaos Warriors and Knights, whereas Elves are squishy creatures that need some thought to use properly.

mrtn
18-02-2010, 14:26
#3: The army can be very unpredictable, some of the Magic items cause Stupidity and the Hellcannons misfire chart is one of the ugliest things I've ever seen.

Only a dwarf player... :p :rolleyes:
;)

Slaaneshi warriors are one of the most dependable core units you can get in the game. Especially since you have magic banners that give stubborn or "doubles count as insane courage".
Besides, you don't have to take the helm of many eyes, you know. :p

Poseidal
18-02-2010, 14:39
#2: My obsession with Magic could go horribly wrong with a few bad miscasts.
Luckily, WoC have a good safety mechanism against it: the puppet

It's saved several of my sorcerers from certain doom, and as a bonus spelt certain doom for some opponents.

As far as modelling goes, I started just wanting a small, 3rd force to play with differently to my Empire and Wood Elves and have ended up getting and converting up all sorts of interesting units, Hellcannons and Giants and Drogres, oh my!

It's great fun making characters too, especially Disc based ones.

Preacher
18-02-2010, 14:59
I think maybe DE have more options as far as builds are concerned, so if your looking for a different play style against the stunties you play now, they would win out in that area.

The small nature of the WOC army is a big plus if your planning a "small side project", if your looking for a warrior/kinght/character heavy army. They all take up a lot of points, so you could build a decent sized force for not all that much money.

Lets look at your Cons for DE:

1. Magic can be nasty with them, if you kit the army that way. And they don't need to use just The Dark Lore. Fire, Shadow, Metal and Death can be used as well to change things up. The Dark Lore isn't as bad as it seems. The spells can work well with the army and are obviously fluffy but the spells are situational for sure.

2. Yes, the army can be on the fraile side(their elves, lol). But that would provide a good learning curve for you to keep you interested in them. Learning to use them right could take a while and would be a big change from the toughness of the Dwarves...I actually see this one as a Pro not a Con.

3. Who said your elves had to be Purple? I've seen alot of incredible looking DE's that are red or dark green(look in GeOrc's thread and check out some of the DE in there). I've seen people go as far as painting them in light greys and whites, with the fluff to back it and they still look good. Bottom line they are your minis, you can paint them whatever colour you like, why not give them the blue paint scheme you like? I don't think its a stretch to say that the DE's have ties to the Chaos Gods. Morathi has made a lot of "deals" over the years, sure most were with Slaneesh, but still.

You could theme a army Tzeentch led by a Sorceress. Maybe this particular sorceress made a deal with The T. Man on the side? So all her warriors wear those colours?

4. Cheese??? Sure the DE can put that out. But one of the reasons I wanted to put together a DE force was to play the opposite of the "cheese" lists. And still win and have fun with them. If you don't write a "cheesy" list, then no one can you a "cheeseball".

Just as a side note. According to our best sources over in the rumour sections DE are due to get some new Dark Rider models and if you believe what they say, the models look fantastic and are plastic as well.

Well after that massive rant....I think its time for me leave.

Bottom line.... I vote DE because they the biggest change from what you play and paint now. Change is good my friend.

Good luck whichever direction you go.

willowdark
18-02-2010, 15:18
Couple points about DE.

Chillwind, Bladewind, Soul Stealer and Black Horror are all fantastic spells. I don't know what you see in them that you don't like, but they are great in game. Chillwind in particular is perfect for the DE since they are so vulnerable to missiles and warmachines. I kept an organ gun out of the entire game by picking the crew off one by one.

Doombolt is good, but the range is too short. If you can get in though, it is a strong magic missile with a low casting value. It's just not a spell you can usually use on turn 1, so it limits your casting ability if you roll for it.

Also, My colour scheme is all reds and golds with nice, warm, natural flesh tones and blond hair. I know that the general perception is that they should have pale skin and wear black, but I've deliberately gone for something more like a pissed off, militant High Elf, and it works great. Especially if you go magic heavy like me. I have, literally, 5 different naked female Elf characters in my collection between sorceresses and Death Hags, and the idea of warm flesh tones, blonde hair and reds is really irresistable for these models.

The DE can produce a very powerful magic phase, especially with tricks like the Sac Dag, or like the way I stack my casters with powerstones for free castings of PoD.

The big difference here is that WoC casters are dual purpose. A Tzeentch Sorcerer on a Disc, or even a Dragon, can bring a significant combat utility to the army as well, where DE armies that invest in casters need to pay for even more characters if they want fighters. I'd say this lends itself more to the "small side project" idea, since it takes less thought to build a WoC army that's good at magic and combat. You can do it with DE, but it takes some practice and some creative resource management.

Although I've heard of many people having success with the DE sorceress on Black Dragon. That's definitely an approach worth looking into if you pick DE and want to go magic heavy.

YTY
18-02-2010, 16:02
Take Dark elves for the versatility. They can master every phase with different army types.

Lordsaradain
18-02-2010, 16:16
I vote for WoC.

They have a cheap great looking plastic range, awesome cavalry and magic(which is pretty different from your dwarves).

Farnsworth
18-02-2010, 17:05
for a different type of army, go DE - corsairs, executioners, dark riders, bolt throwers, magic - pretty.much a complete change!

for a decent side project, go WoC - cheap, plastic and finished in about 7 units.

Farnsworth
18-02-2010, 17:09
Btw, i'd go for a corsair heavy force lead by malus and fellheart - kind of like the start of the firsr Darkblade book (I forget the title.)

Razakel
18-02-2010, 21:30
I'm still undecided :(, thank you for all the comments so far. Keep them coming if you don't mind!

willowdark
18-02-2010, 22:01
I still think you need to ask yourself how far you want to drift away from Dwarfs. If you really just want a simple side project, go Warriors. It's a great plastic range, a low model count and very straight forward tactics. It would be the easier transition.

DE is an army to get immersed in. About half the range in the core choices are ugly metal, so a significant degree of conversion work is required. Most units are low toughness and less armour, so require careful planning to get the most out of. There is a high variety of usable character options, whether it be casters, fighters, a CoB or Assassins. And solidly half the army falls apart in combat if you don't break on the charge.

A DE army is really a full time investment. Unless you opt for a Dragon and dual Hydras, or any build that settles for minimum Dark Riders as core.

brendel
18-02-2010, 22:33
I think if you are leaning toward chaos to begin with you should follow you gut feeling, you can always start dark elves as a side project when your chaos army is finished.

Malorian
18-02-2010, 22:38
From what I'm reading I think you should go with WoC.

ChaosVC
19-02-2010, 02:55
Despite being a WOC fan, I voted for Dark elves for a number of reason, speed, manuveuring and flexibility. Of course I am assuming that you only play dwarves all this time. You will find darkelves a more interesting army to play with and there are more then a few ways to play with darkelves, while woc is the extreme one way opposite of dwarves. Model wise, WOC have more room for conversions while darkelves are good even without any, but conversion is always fun when you want them too look unqiue.

Razakel
19-02-2010, 15:45
Alright, I've considered all the input and come to a decision. Thanks to everyone who voted in the poll, and everyone who posted their opinion, it was invaluable.






FOR THE GLORY OF TZEENTCH!

How good is the Battalion by the way? I'll be picking up the army book tomorrow, so I'll have to see.

willowdark
19-02-2010, 15:53
The box gets you more foot than anything. If that's what you want then great, but you'll want to get some Marauder Horsemen, and since you'll probably want a few of those you might be better off just buying boxes of them, knights and dogs, along with your Tzeentch Disc Riders.

I'd make sure that I wanted foot befor picking up the Battalion. If you decide you do, get 2 of them.

BTW, I am truly glad that you came around to Warriors. My group is full of WoC players and I think it's great for gaming in my area. I think your group will appreciate it too.

Lordsaradain
20-02-2010, 22:30
When you buy the army book, be sure to pick up a box of hounds (and I'd suggest a box of marauder horsemen too) because these guys have their uses in every type of army.