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Eldartank
20-02-2010, 06:15
I recently got my new Tyranid Codex. I must say that this codex is absolutely the BEST codex ever published in the entire history of Games Workshop. As hard as I tried, I honestly could not find anything wrong with any aspect of this codex. Every unit has just the right points cost for their abilities. Everything about this new codex is a great improvement over all previous ones.

;)

Tenken
20-02-2010, 06:20
I see what you did thar.

Clever.:rolleyes:

Eldartank
20-02-2010, 06:30
Actually, I am mostly satisfied with the new Tyranid codex, although I think there are some imperfections. I think I can work around those imperfecions when building my army, though. I just made that over-the-top post to see how others reacted, especially after seeing all those "I hate the new codex" posts. What really amused me is how the new Tyranid codex was brutally lambasted and castigated BEFORE it was even released. When it was finally released and I picked mine up, I was even more amused to see that it wasn't quite so bad as all those condemning posts made it out to be.

:)

Riptacus
20-02-2010, 06:39
What really amused me is how the new Tyranid codex was brutally lambasted and castigated BEFORE it was even released. When it was finally released and I picked mine up, I was even more amused to see that it wasn't quite so bad as all those condemning posts made it out to be.

That's because people had 100% accurate information about the codex, from stats to points costs, nearly a month in advance of the release date. I'm amused by guys like you who seem to project their own habit of remaining as ill-informed as they can until the last possible moment onto everybody else.

It's not as though the pre-release complaints suddenly vanished when the book came out; everything that people were worried about made it intact to the final print. You may disagree with the acuity of those problems, but you would have been able to do that pre-release just as easily as post-release, so I can't see what you find so amusing (unless it's GW's continued inability to keep their rules under wraps in spite of a concerted effort to do so).

Tenken
20-02-2010, 07:10
The codex is fine, imo. I think the biggest complaint is it's just another army, nids aren't nids anymore. They lost their mutability within units (like having 8 biomorph options for every troop choice). They just feel like another army, not like tyranids. That's my beef with the armybook. Fine book, but it doesn't do the tyranids justice. Special characters maybe, and psychic powers and shadow in the warp, but that's all really.

Corpse
20-02-2010, 07:34
Nids are more mass produced feeling rather then a few potential heroic nids getting beefy for no reason within a brood. All broods are armed similarly for the mass produced feel. Like a hive mind would intend it to be.

All in all, I like what they did with the gaunts and warriors. Lots more big stuff instead of just carnifexes, and I do feel for the guys with fexes who have to pay more. Bright side, shooty fexes can fight like melee fexes now.

vladsimpaler
20-02-2010, 07:54
http://www.fnmeng.info/Pictures/[H]ard%20Pictures/But%20then%20I%20lol'd/at-first-i-was-like-but-then-i-lold.jpg

unclejimbo827
20-02-2010, 08:13
This thread makes me want to go look at an anime titmarine thread.

Bonzai
20-02-2010, 08:19
I like the new dex. It brings a lot of new options to the table, and makes lists other than nidzilla viable. The people who seem to complain the most are those who invested in 6 fexes, and are now having to rebuild from mostly scratch.

Filthy O'Bedlam
20-02-2010, 09:06
I just won my first Fifth Edition Game Ever, in over a dozen tries, and it was with the new Tyranid Codex. I personally really like the book. Yes, the in-squad mutability is gone, but there is now more than one competent build out there. And Hell, for the Nizilla People, they can now take 9 Carnifexes if they Want. now that's Nidzilla.

Cheers, Filthy

Tethylis
20-02-2010, 09:46
My biggest problem lies with the fact that the Tyranids now seem to be alot more of a shooty army than HtH. IMHO Nids should be the ultimate threat in HtH, but the lack of equivelant assault grenades combined with no bonus +1A for multiple weapons kinda feels like Tyranids have had their teeth pulled out.

Plastic Parody
20-02-2010, 10:38
My biggest problem lies with the fact that the Tyranids now seem to be alot more of a shooty army than HtH. IMHO Nids should be the ultimate threat in HtH, but the lack of equivelant assault grenades combined with no bonus +1A for multiple weapons kinda feels like Tyranids have had their teeth pulled out.

Eh its been that way for some time Im afraid.

Griffindale
20-02-2010, 11:09
Most tyranids players are just mad that now they actually have to PLAY their armies.

Maldred2
20-02-2010, 11:16
This is the codex that has brought me back to 40K.

There seem to be a lot of different options to play. I won't be fielding the same army over and over again because I'm shooting myself in the foot if I make other choices.

sometimes I'll field gargoyles and shrikes, sometimes i'll field raveners, sometimes I'll field deathleaper.

Not because they are "required" to win, but because they are fun!!

And I feel I'll have a fighting chance wichever option I choose. Robin Cruddace did a great job on this codex for casual players like me.

Mojaco
20-02-2010, 11:17
I just made that over-the-top post to see how others reacted
Maybe next time don't say so in the third post, and you might get some reactions.

I agree the Tyranid codex isn't half bad. I even use a unit of 3 carnifexes and I'm doing fine so far. Some of the stuff people said is absolutely true; losing instant death immunity in return for a wound is a big deal (it puts a huge burden on losing combat if you lose by 3 wounds with each powerfist hit) and having no assault grenades hurts (though I don't think EVERY army should have frag grenades). But, at the same time they overstated some potential drawbacks; for example being able to instant-kill a warrior with shooting has so far not been a problem, as those weapons focus on Trygons and Fexes.

Nice codex. If only they could go back and fix Space Wolves they'd have a perfect track record for 5th edition IMO.

boreas
20-02-2010, 13:39
Well, it's got lots of new fun units and they are trashing their opponents 75% if you read most battle reports on various websites. It's a cool codex to play with or against (even if I get trashed by my friend's nid 75% of the time). It does need a lot of adjusting to, both tactically and miniature-wise, though.

A few glitches? Sure, but not enough to justify the Warseer-Whinefest we've had (which, thankfully, is starting to die down). A FAQ will clear up some issues (Doom vs units in vehicles, etc). Some will remain "bad" (spike rifle, pyrovores...). Oh well, I've been having Repentias and Penitent Engines in my codex, I'm sure you can cope with your "bad" choices too...

Phil

Max Jet
20-02-2010, 14:14
A few glitches? Sure, but not enough to justify the Warseer-Whinefest we've had (which, thankfully, is starting to die down)

May I kindly ask you how many glitches and errors, along with no brainers and senseless choices a Codex needs and at what price it should be sold in order to make you say "This is a really bad Codex and not worth the price"? And perhaps what Codex comes the closest to this.

Latro_
20-02-2010, 14:15
Its a great book, does suffer a little bit from CSM syndrome, that is a few select units that stand out above all others

e.g.
thropes, trygons, hive guard, tevigons

daboarder
20-02-2010, 14:27
The Bigest Gripe for me personaly is the massive discrepency between model's and rule's. I'm NOT talking about a lack of model's for Tervigon's and the like, as im more than happy with my fex conversion. What I AM talking about is things like the now defunct Carnifex head and carpace options, or the spineguant that are a Nerf to your army that COST you points instead of saving them, even the new units are not immune to this, look at the pyrovore, a great model but at $55 each I cannot justify spending money on them as a student if they are never going to see to table. Needless BS like this is probably what pisses me off the most about the new codex.

Morgrad
20-02-2010, 14:42
I gave great love for the pyrovore. 2 of them in a spore is a cheap suicide unit, highly positionable, that can do great damage to the target you want it to, then HAVE TO BE KILLED or they're going to nuke something again the next turn.

They're cheaper than a guardian double-flamer squad, with a much cheaper delivery system, and heavy flamers instead of regular. And the guardian flamer squad in a serpent is one of the best suicide units in the game (for the points).

I love this new 'dex, and I'm not just some thoughtless fanboi. The synergy options are fantastic, the units are effective, and each FoC has a quite a few valid choices (with the elites choices being overwhelming).

You can make so many types of armies with this book, each of which can be effective.

Does it have some crazy issues? Well, sure. It's a 40k codex. But that doesn't make it not awesome.

As for defunct carnifex heads and the like - now you can make your 'fexs look however you want with lots of variation without having to worry about WYSIWYG. I think that's a good thing.

carl
20-02-2010, 15:00
Even i'm not saying it's total Garbage. As i pointed out in the Whine thread, it's very much a case of their being clear issues with several units lacking grenades and several more just being plain overpriced compared to equivelent alternate options.

Lack of Grenades on littile guys is defintly the bigesst issue long Term though IMHOP. Good T, High Save, moderate WS models can live without them, midling WS, Low Toughness Low save models absolutly cannot. The saves are probably the biggest issue, but WS and T just act as force multipliers ontop of that.

Morgrad
20-02-2010, 15:26
I so rarely paid for flesh hooks last 'dex that the lack of assault grenades isn't that big a deal to me. We have some synergy options to minimize the initial damage we take or maximize the damage of the surviving models - but sometimes you just charge into cover, take your thumping, and attack last.

boreas
20-02-2010, 16:03
May I kindly ask you how many glitches and errors, along with no brainers and senseless choices a Codex needs and at what price it should be sold in order to make you say "This is a really bad Codex and not worth the price"? And perhaps what Codex comes the closest to this.

Dude... I LIKE my Inquisitorial codices, even though I'm eager as hell to have new ones(mostly to get new fun units). Go read the entries for "penitent Engines" or "Repentias". Look at what my "Priest" do. Ever tried a Culexus assassins in an all-comer's list?

All of those make the Pyrovore look Uber and the Spike Rifle seem like an assault cannon.

The fact is, even Pyrovore can be used. Is it optimal? If' you're looking for an "optimal" codex, then maybe GW should not publish codices. It should publish ONE list for each army and you get to play with the Optilist...

Phil

Max Jet
20-02-2010, 17:45
O.k Boreas I have taken a cloooose look at the Witch Hunter Codex, so here is my opinion.

Hm of the options the Excruciator, and the Bionics seem totally worthless, but both don't count as the Excruciator got invalidated and the Bionics are a copy paste choice from the Space Marines.

The Divine Pronouncement is WAY to expensive.

Word of the Emperor is "meeeeh" but AMAZINGLY good against Tyranids!!

Thats it. One overexpensive, two outdated and one "meeeh" Option in the entire Codex. So only two worthless choices counts and even one of them is AMAZING in a specific situation. Not bad eh? Now onto the units.

The priest is a joke right? But he is a copy paste from the Imperial Guard Codex, so that doesn't count.

Arco Flaggelants... hmmm I cannot say anything. They don't seem that bad. Certainly they have their use against specific armies.

Sister Repentia. Jesus.. I laughed ^^ Mistress .. thehehehe =) Wow they are as bad as a unit can be.
They would need a transport, the possibility to charge out of it, or outflanking. That would make them somewhat usable.

The Assassins.. Well.. The Eversor is Rubbish ^3 and the Cullexus? Sounds really good against Tyranids.

More Copy Paste choices, they don't count.

Seraphim Squad. A little bit too expensive.

Immolator. Too Expensive.

Penitent Engine.. dear good. There is no excuse for that.

Karamazov... meeeeh

So without counting the outdated rules or copy paste choices. (Many options have been adjusted point wise to other existing units we have:

2 rubbish options
4 rubbish units or characters
5 meeh choices

as oposed to 33%(!) of the Tyranid options being stupid or senseless or overpriced

7 stupid or senseless or outperformed units
4 Meeeeh units or characters


The one Codex being 2 editions old, the other being fresh and new.

go figure.

boreas
20-02-2010, 19:29
Look at it this way:

"Good" mean "I would field that unit. It's as cost-effective as most similar-slot 40k units. "Very good" is obviously better that "good", and "not-good" or "bad" are worst. "Meh" means: not as good as "good", but could have it's moments when tactically used. As you can see, it's not a very empiric view ;)

"Fun" means "it adds some spice, both tactically and cinematically to my games. It can become a part of some Campaign or would be very cool to convert as a show case.

Hive Tyrant:Very good
Swarm Lord: good and fun
Tyrant Guard brood: very good
Tervigon:very good and fun
Tyranid Prime: good
Parasite: Meh but fun
Hive guard: very good
Lictor: meh
Death Leaper: meh but very fun
Venomtrope: meh
Doom: Good and fun
Zoanthrope:Very good
Pyrovore: not good
Ymgarl: Good and fun
Warrior: good
Genestealer: meh
Mycetic spore: good
Termagant: okay, good when in masses
Hormagaunt: meh, okay in masses
Ripper swarms: meh
Shrike: Meh, but fun in an all-flier list
Ravener: not good
Sky-slaher: Meh, but fun in an all-flier list
Gargoyle: Meh, but fun in an all-flier list (possibly good when in masses)
Harpy: not good, but fun in an all-flier list
Spore mine: not good
Carnifex, meh, okay when multiple units.
Old One Eye: Bad, but fun
Biovore: not sure, might be ok
Trygon: good and fun
Mawlock: good and fun
Tyrannofex: meh

So we have:

-Four very good units (I would rather have them than a similar-slot unit from other codices)
-Eight good unit (just as cost-effective as similar-slot units)
-Twelve "meh" units (you have to work harder to have those perform)
-Five Bad units (I wouldn't take them, except for a themed list like all-flier)


BUT, you have 13 units that are cool to use because they include new game dynamics (Venomthrope, Ymgarl), theme list possiblities(Harpy) or Cinematic value (Old One Eye).

If you compare that with other codices, its very very positive. Take a Tau list, and you have some very good units (Suits, Hammerheads), some very bad units (Firewarriors, Vespids) and few "fun" units. Same for CSM, WH, DH... In fact, only the newer codices can positively compare. IG have lost of fun and good units, but they also have crappy ones (Storm Troopers!? Penal Legion?). Same with Orks (Flashgitz???). Space Wolves have 24% less unit types than nids. 34% less if you don't count characters!!! That's a lot less diversity and fun to have. That makes you nids list a lot less predictable. It probably come to this: I don't think a "good" codex is one where each and every entry is competitively good. To me a good codex is like a restaurant menu with lots of choices. It might not all be "fine cuisine", but you can eat there very often and always find something you want to eat...

Phil

WinglessVT2
20-02-2010, 20:46
It's not fair to compare anything except necrons to tau.
Both armies have very few units to begin with, and out of those, even fewer have any purpose behind them.

Hoodwink
20-02-2010, 20:51
I like gargoyles. Point-for-point the best units in the game for me. Cheapest unit to put in toxin sacs and adrenal glands, a way to wound ANYTHING, and flyers. A+ for me.

Oktober
20-02-2010, 21:01
Nids are more mass produced feeling rather then a few potential heroic nids getting beefy for no reason within a brood. All broods are armed similarly for the mass produced feel. Like a hive mind would intend it to be.

one of the hive fleets in the codex actually talks about how mutable their forces are to better fight their enemy...Gorgon or something against the Tau. I feel that that is what the hive mind would do, not just mass produced units but easily upgraded troops designed to fight a specific enemy...more to what the previous codex was like.

I'm not a fan of the new codex, hate it actually. Changes are too drastic and it completely changes the dynamic of the army I spent so much time and energy on. I think it would be interesting to change Space Marines this much and see how up in arms people would be.

Edit: to be told I am a casual gamer, never played nidzilla and always played a mix of things and had lots of fun in 4th.

Hoodwink
20-02-2010, 21:19
I don't see any reason why a person who plays a "mixed of things" would have any issue with the new codex on how it's set up.

It's set up to make the bigger Godzillas more expensive and the smaller guys less expensive. It evens out perfectly if you take a combination of the two.

Even setting up the army is much easier to do. There are no longer a million things to put on your units and (what I love) you don't have to have a million different models because you may want to play one unit slightly differently than normal for a game. WYSIWYG was a b**** for the old dex.

WinglessVT2
20-02-2010, 21:22
It also has medium-sized critters with a purpose.

MasterDecoy
20-02-2010, 22:15
Im kind of sick about people complaining that the spinefist is a nerf, and I ran the numbers:

Spinefist: BS3 S3 AP5 - Twinlinked
Grots: 75% * 66.66% * 100% = 49.99% to kill (3 S/PK)
Gaunts: 75% * 50% * 100% = 37.5% to kill (3 S/PK)
Guardsmen: 75% * 50% * 100% = 37.5% to kill (3 S/PK)
Aspect Warriors: 75% * 50% * 50% = 18.75% to kill (6 S/PK)
Sisters Of Battle: 75% * 50% * 33.33% = 12.49% to kill (9 S/PK)
Ork Boyz: 75% * 33.33% * 100% = 24.99% to kill (6 S/PK)
Orks With KFF: 75% * 33.33% * 66.66% = 16.66% to kill (7 S/PK)
Marine Scouts: 75% * 33.33% * 50% = 12.49% to kill (9 S/PK)
Tactical Marines: 75% * 33.33% * 33.33% = 8.33% to kill (13 S/PK)
Terminators: 75% * 33.33% * 16.66% = 4.16% to kill (25 S/PK)
Warboss: 75% * 16.66% * 50% = 6.25% to wound (48 S/PK)
Carnifex’s: 75% * 16.66% * 33.33% = 4.16% to wound (97 S/PK)

Fleshborer: BS3 S4 AP5
Grots: 50% * 86.66% * 100% = 43.33% to kill (3 S/PK)
Gaunts: 50% * 66.66% * 100% = 33.33% to kill (3 S/PK)
Guardsmen: 50% * 66.66% * 100% = 33.33% to kill (3 S/PK)
Aspect Warriors: 50% * 66.66% * 50% = 16.66% to kill (7 S/PK)
Sisters Of Battle: 50% * 66.66% * 33.33% = 11.11% to kill (10 S/PK)
Ork Boyz: 50% * 50% * 100% = 25% to kill (5 S/PK)
Orks With KFF: 50% * 50% * 66.66% = 16.66% to kill (7 S/PK)
Marine Scouts: 50% * 50% * 50% = 12.5% to kill (10 S/PK)
Tactical Marines: 50% * 50% * 33.33% = 8.33% to kill (13 S/PK)
Terminators: 50% * 50% * 16.66% = 4.16% to kill (25 S/PK)
Warboss: 50% * 33.33% * 50% = 8.33% to wound (37 S/PK)
Carnifex’s: 50% * 16.66% * 33.33% = 2.77% to wound (145 S/PK)




As you can see, on anything below T4, the spinefist is clearly better, againsnt T4 exactly the same, T5, the fists are slightly worse, against T6 , once again the spine fist is better, and T7 the borer is only better cause it can hurt it.

So lets put this in perspective, against all of the most common types of infantry you will face, the fists are better or the same, slightly worse againnst some rarer characters, and much better vs most MC's, yup, sounds like a nerf to me :P

Hoodwink
20-02-2010, 22:21
The funny part I've found is that there are so many nay-sayers on the new dex, but I've heard FAR more stories of people having much more fun games with it than previously. More options, more tactics, people seem to have a much better chance to win now. Maybe the people who lose are just staying out of the threads, I dunno. But it just seems like what I see.-

WinglessVT2
20-02-2010, 22:25
Why would I pay points for a gun that's exactly as good as the one I start with against 75% of the units in the game?

My gants are there to swarm people. It's in my best interest to take as little bling on them as is physically possible, so I can field more of them.

Yes, people outside warseer and the unofficial tyranid forum are having a good time with the new tyranids, for exactly the reasons listed.
It's a superior codex compared to the old one, but there are a lot of really stupid things in it, too.

Morgrad
20-02-2010, 22:31
@MasterDecoy:

The twin-linked upgrade of spine-fists makes them, as you've pointed out, not a nerf (but makes the model 20% more expensive).

The spike rifle is a nerf you have to pay for. 6" more range, lose 1 point of strength, and go from AP5 to AP-. I could see it as a free option, but for 20% more points and dramatically lessened impact except from >12" up to 18" makes them stink on ice.

Hoodwink
20-02-2010, 22:33
I agree there are stupid things in it, but it's a superior book to the old one. People are complaining that it's far worse and they can't use their army anymore, yadda yadda yadda.

I agree on spike rifles. Make them free. They are good against rapid fire by limiting their shots and still staying out of charge range, but it's not worth the point sink.

Eldartank
20-02-2010, 22:41
That's because people had 100% accurate information about the codex, from stats to points costs, nearly a month in advance of the release date. I'm amused by guys like you who seem to project their own habit of remaining as ill-informed as they can until the last possible moment onto everybody else.

It's not as though the pre-release complaints suddenly vanished when the book came out; everything that people were worried about made it intact to the final print. You may disagree with the acuity of those problems, but you would have been able to do that pre-release just as easily as post-release, so I can't see what you find so amusing (unless it's GW's continued inability to keep their rules under wraps in spite of a concerted effort to do so).

Oh, no, you're totally wrong. Absolutely no one knew anything about the Tyranid codex until it hit the stores. Seriously. There's no way GW would allow information on an upcoming codex to be leaked to the public. That just never happens. No, really, I'm serious. Seriously.....

:D

Hoodwink
20-02-2010, 22:45
The problem with the leaks is that, yes a lot of people saw the codex before it was released, but a lot of people saw fan-made codexes that claimed to be original, too.

A lot of these people started getting crazy before they even knew what they were talking about.

Then you have people that jump on the panic bandwagon and hate something because other people do :P

MasterDecoy
20-02-2010, 22:49
Why would I pay points for a gun that's exactly as good as the one I start with against 75% of the units in the game?

My gants are there to swarm people. It's in my best interest to take as little bling on them as is physically possible, so I can field more of them.

Yes, people outside warseer and the unofficial tyranid forum are having a good time with the new tyranids, for exactly the reasons listed.
It's a superior codex compared to the old one, but there are a lot of really stupid things in it, too.

and nobody is forcing you to take that upgrade, I was pointing out that it IS an upgrade, and therefore should be paid for, hell, if it didnt cost any points, then it would be one of those "no brainer" choices people keep complaining about.

Hoodwink
20-02-2010, 22:55
Even if it were free, I'd take borers more often than not. The extra Str and AP outweigh the slight range advantage most of the time.

By far not game-breaking or anything, but just silly. Like the MC Devourers and MC Deathspitter debate.

EDIT: lol still talking about the fleshborer vs spike rifle here... but yeah it would be a no-brainer for the spinefist most of the time.

MasterDecoy
20-02-2010, 22:57
Even if it were free, I'd take borers more often than not. The extra Str and AP outweigh the slight range advantage most of the time.

By far not game-breaking or anything, but just silly. Like the MC Devourers and MC Deathspitter debate.

Spinefists are AP5 as well, and are the same range, you might be thinking of the spike rifle, which yes, IMHO is crap.

but free fists would be stupid.

EDIT: lol, you ninja'd my answer.

naloth
20-02-2010, 23:18
If you compare that with other codices, its very very positive.
Given that I disagree with about half your ratings, I can see how there's a difference of opinion. I marked ones that I disagree with:

*Hive Tyrant: Good to meh depending on what you're facing.
*Swarm Lord: (as Tyrant)
*Tyrant Guard brood: meh, a tyrant cover save
Tervigon:very good and fun
*Tyranid Prime: very good
Parasite: Meh but fun
Hive guard: very good
Lictor: meh
Death Leaper: meh but very fun
Venomtrope: meh
Doom: Good and fun
*Zoanthrope: good
Pyrovore: not good
*Ymgarl: meh but fun
*Warrior: meh
*Genestealer: good possibly very good
*Mycetic spore: meh, lousy for shooting, easy KP, but DS options are good.
Termagant: okay, good when in masses
Hormagaunt: meh, okay in masses
Ripper swarms: meh
*Shrike: good but situational
Ravener: not good
Sky-slaher: Meh, but fun in an all-flier list
*Gargoyle: good
Harpy: not good, but fun in an all-flier list
Spore mine: not good
Carnifex, meh, okay when multiple units.
Old One Eye: Bad, but fun
Biovore: not sure, might be ok
Trygon: good and fun
Mawlock: good and fun
Tyrannofex: meh

Suprisingly about half were upgraded from your view and about half were downgraded. Still, it's not like the SW, Ork, or IG book which has mostly good -> very good and only one or two meh -> bad.

carl
21-02-2010, 00:07
I so rarely paid for flesh hooks last 'dex that the lack of assault grenades isn't that big a deal to me. We have some synergy options to minimize the initial damage we take or maximize the damage of the surviving models - but sometimes you just charge into cover, take your thumping, and attack last.


Yeah but how many MC's did you take and how many littile guys?

Grenades aren't as vital to MC's as they still get to strike at the same time as powerfists, generally the only thing the enemy has that they fear. Littile guys with 6+ and 5+ saves just can't afford to have half/two-thirds of their brood cut down before they even get to strike. Hell even the much disliked Tacs can at ful size get close to a half a dozen kills against the weaker littile guys and 2-3 against the best. only a few of the littile andmedium guys are tough enough to take even a tac's attacks to the chin and not really hurt for it.

Hive Mind help you if those are Pedro Enhanced Sternguard, (or simlar equivelents). Not only will the Helfire really scare your MC's and Medium Guys. But their salvo of attacks will murder any non-MC unit completly and utterly. And Pedr Players are fond of spamming 3 of these units on you.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 00:14
Hive Tyrant: prohibitedly expensive under 2k points. Not very killy for its cost, but still very useful. Heavily customizable. Good.
Swarm Lord: dramatically more expensive than regular tyrants, and slightly more killy. Good.
Tyrant Guard brood: mandatory if you're bringing tyrants or a swarmlord. Decent.
Tervigon: expensive, not killy at all. Very good and useful abilities. Good.
Tyranid Prime: very good value for the points, and very killy. Characters will learn to fear these. Good.
Parasite: expensive, and not all that killy. It's an independent character with wings, which is always good, and it brings synapse. Decent.
Hive guard: pretty much mandatory. Essential.
Lictor: horrible, unless you take a large amount of them. Bad.
Death Leaper: good for psychic defense, but not killy. Costs as much as a monstrous creature. Decent.
Venomtrope: they fail to impress, and eat up elites. Cover is easy to get, even without these. Bad.
Doom: spore pod is mandatory. Very killy for his cost, but sucks up an elite slot. Decent.
Zoanthrope: mandatory for dealing with heavy armor. Essential.
Pyrovore: utterly useless. The tyranid equivalent of servitors. Bad.
Ymgarl: expensive. Sucks up elites. Easily defeated by people who know how they work. Bad.
Warrior: cheap synapse that gets cover saves, and butcher infantry of all types and sizes. Slow, can be made either shooty, choppy, or a combination. Good.
Genestealer: better against armor than warriors. Gets infiltrate for free now. Decent.
Mycetic spore: yay, organic drop pods. Not impressed. Decent.
Termagant: cheap cover. Large units can hold up infantry for a turn, until you're ready to send in something competent. Loves having warriors and tervigons around. Good.
Hormagaunt: extremely killy for their cost, but hates charging things in cover. Will bounce off heavy infantry. Good.
Ripper swarms: horrible, and they suck up actual troop slots. Bad.
Shrike: warriors with wings. Mandatory if you want some winged elements in your army, as they're the only fast synapse you have realistic access to. Good.
Ravener: a combination of warriors and genestealers. Less killy and durable than warriors, but much faster. Gets acute senses for some reason or other. Decent.
Sky-slaher: just awful. Bad.
Gargoyle: cheapest jump infantry in the game. Screens everything behind them, and can be made competent and really killy with upgrades, like gaunts and gants. Good.
Harpy: I have no idea what this thing is supposed to do, or what role it fills, but it both flies and has lots of big guns. Someone will find a use for it later. Decent.
Spore mine: you can use them to restrict movement through shenanigans, but since they consume a fast attack slot... Bad.
Carnifex: expensive. Outclassed by warriors, shrikes, trygon, and tyranid prime when it comes to dealing with infantry and most types of armor. Could be useful in large games. Bad.
Old One Eye: a more expensive carnifex, so even worse than the regular one. Bad.
Biovore: good if you need more anti-infantry. Guess that tyranids rarely need more of? Decent.
Trygon: fast and killy monster, that can be made into synapse. Good.
Mawlock: slower than trygon, plus less killy. Wants to be on the board for half the game, so it can hurt foot armies with silly shenanigans. The problem? No one runs foot. Bad.
Tyrannofex: very expensive anti-whatever, with hardcore durability. Not really fieldable below 2k points, and not really needed below that, either. Decent.

Riptacus
21-02-2010, 00:33
I agree almost entirely with your ratings, Wingless, except in a few cases.

I'd bump Genestealers from 'Decent' to "Good".

I'd knock down the Harpy to "Bad". Sure, there may be situational conditions where it excels, but the same concept would apply to the Pyrovore, Carnifex, etc. In general, I think people who use it will experience a disappointing combination of fragility and lackluster damage output.

I'd bump the Mawloc to "Decent" at the very least. Spending half the game off the board means it's potentially exposed to half as much fire, and can contest an objective in the endgame. Also, you're overlooking its ability to hit vehicles. S6 versus rear armour is often a 50/50 shot at damage.

Lastly, Spore Mines could vault up to "Good" or even "Great" if the FAQ treats them well.

Morgrad
21-02-2010, 00:59
Yeah but how many MC's did you take and how many littile guys?

Last 'dex I'd typically run 2 sniper-fexs, a walking tyrant with a guard or two, and a flappy tyrant - so 4 MCs and a variety of assorted gribblies to back them up. Usually at least 2 squads of non-upgraded 'stealers, 2 squads of 4 tyranid warriors (one shooty and one choppy), a couple zoeys, then gargoyles/hormagaunts/whatever.

I'd mix it up a bit, but the most MCs I ever brought was 5, and that was once - because I wanted to try a close-combat carnifex.

I never once used elite 'fexs or dakka-fexs.

So 4 MCs, 8 warriors, and 40-70 little guys, depending on what I felt like doing that day.

The only guys with flesh hooks were my carnifexs, just to burn the last point or two in the list. I also almost never upgraded the save for anything, so I don't see the complaint about that impacting my play much, either.

boreas
21-02-2010, 02:09
I still think that most players undervalue the "fun" factor. Sure, if you take the units 1 vs 1 against some other codices they might not be overwhelming, but the fun factor with nids is all the rules that give synergy to other units. In that respect, the nids codex is closer to the Eldar or Tau codices. That, in my book, is a lot of fun, which is very positive.

Phil

freddieyu
21-02-2010, 02:49
Maybe next time don't say so in the third post, and you might get some reactions.

I agree the Tyranid codex isn't half bad. I even use a unit of 3 carnifexes and I'm doing fine so far. Some of the stuff people said is absolutely true; losing instant death immunity in return for a wound is a big deal (it puts a huge burden on losing combat if you lose by 3 wounds with each powerfist hit) and having no assault grenades hurts (though I don't think EVERY army should have frag grenades). But, at the same time they overstated some potential drawbacks; for example being able to instant-kill a warrior with shooting has so far not been a problem, as those weapons focus on Trygons and Fexes.

Nice codex. If only they could go back and fix Space Wolves they'd have a perfect track record for 5th edition IMO.

Nah the Space Wolves are just another SM army, albeit with a furry flavor....a battle cannon or earthshaker round kills them puppies as dead as any other marine out there.....

Morgrad
21-02-2010, 03:41
I still think that most players undervalue the "fun" factor. Sure, if you take the units 1 vs 1 against some other codices they might not be overwhelming, but the fun factor with nids is all the rules that give synergy to other units. In that respect, the nids codex is closer to the Eldar or Tau codices. That, in my book, is a lot of fun, which is very positive.

Phil

Agreed 100%.

- Also Phil :D

Max Jet
21-02-2010, 11:10
So we have:

-Four very good units (I would rather have them than a similar-slot unit from other codices)
-Eight good unit (just as cost-effective as similar-slot units)
-Twelve "meh" units (you have to work harder to have those perform)
-Five Bad units (I wouldn't take them, except for a themed list like all-flier)

It's not only, that I don't agree, you managed to completely neglect the options, which are a great part of the Codex. As I said, 33% of the options are useless or overexpensive. That is unforgiveable for something costing me 22.50€

And fun doesn't exclude competitiveness. The Guard and the Orks are two perfect examples for armies being fun AND valuable. Everyone can make a fun unit, I could come up right here with a unit being funny to play, but making the unit valuable also requires work and skill which obviously hasn't been put in this Codex.
Say what you want, it has nice ideas but is a rushed work.

Hoodwink
21-02-2010, 15:48
I think people are giving the Harpy a bad rap. I can forsee it being very useful in certain situations. It's a very cheap MC for what it brings.

With Adrenal Glands, you have a fairly decent anti-tank and anti-infantry option. You can fly over an enemy infantry unit and drop 3 templates on them in 1 turn. Not to mention he's a flyer which gives him far more reach than other MC's.

The key is to keep him at a distance. Not much can ID him at a distance, so use that to your advantage. With HVC (twin-linked which makes up for his mediocre BS), he has decent ranged anti-armor support. He's not great at anything in particular but fills in those areas you might be lacking. HVC and adrenal glands can make up for some lack of Anti-armor. STC and Toxin sacs would be nice Anti-infantry.

Toxin Sacs on a MC?!? Yes, because he gets relatively few attacks, but is all but guaranteed to strike first on the charge. Against MEq, he will wound on 3+ without sacs. 4+ with but allows for rerolled failed wounds. Mixed with Scytals he has, that makes for more killiness. Against units like Nurgle, it gives even more killiness.

He's not amazing at anything, but I can definitely see a usefulness for it. He's more of a kiter to stay in the back and pop templates at people. Then rush in if you need added support against armor from how I view him. Just gotta watch the fire he takes, so your best defense is distance.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 16:10
I'm thinking regen, adrenal glands, linked heavy venom, and cluster spines.
That's two large blasts to destroy most infantry, fairly reliable anti-tank, and a fast support-critter, that makes it so you can charge into cover if he's part of the combat.

The only question is how to make it survive a turn. Heavy bolters and autocannon equivalents are everywhere, and the thing is too large to get a coversave from anything, except maybe the tyranno.

Hoodwink
21-02-2010, 16:19
Yeah you'd need positioning and range. Then you'd have to hit the biggest threats to it asap.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 16:24
This demands further analysis, because I really, really want harpies.
Flying anti-tank units, that drop large templates on infantry, simply can't be completely useless.

Morgrad
21-02-2010, 16:48
I've been chewing on theoryhammer for harpies, and I'm not sure that anything but testing it out is going to prove its worth or not. It's the cost of 20 toxic/FC gargoyles, which makes it awfully expensive, but WinglessVT2's last point screams truth. Which doesn't mean it's true, but... c'mon.

Anyway, I like the concept of it, it can put out a heapin' helpin' of anti-infantry blast templates (esp. if your pick up cluster spines - a free upgrade, and it shoots that + the TL stranglethorn each turn), plus the spore-mine salvo. If it can live 2 turns and drop its payload, that's 4 large-blasts from shooting and 3 from the mines. Pretty impressive.

I would be tempted to leave the HVC off it and have its anti-tank be in melee - it's fast enough to get to them, and shooting the HVC at tanks means its second shot per turn is probably wasted. But... do we need more anti-infantry?

As part of supporting a big honkin' unit of gargoyles with some shrikes backing it up, I definitely want to give one a try a few times and see how it runs.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 17:04
The thing with the venom cannon is you can stun or immobilize vehicles with it, then finish them off with automatically hitting, strength-6, monstrous creature attacks.
Sure, you only get three, but it should be more than enough. While on your way there, pass over infantry and drop some mines on them.

It's probably smarter to run them in pairs, with a large unit of gargoyles giving partial cover to them, but this means you'll need to run at least one trygon prime if you want synapse for them, or blow a million points on a winged tyrant.

naloth
21-02-2010, 17:39
I would be tempted to leave the HVC off it and have its anti-tank be in melee - it's fast enough to get to them, and shooting the HVC at tanks means its second shot per turn is probably wasted. But... do we need more anti-infantry?


That's the biggest issue I have. It's another unit that's not really suited well for what I need. The harpy's anti-tank is mediocre while it's pretty good anti-infantry. It completes with the other 'nid units which about all are geared toward killing infantry and pretty good at it.

Hoodwink
21-02-2010, 17:42
I'd be tempted to keep the STC on it and use adrenal glands. Then you can sit back and potshot, then if a turn arises and you need it, move up to attack armor.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 17:43
Linked guns with strength-9 are completely acceptable for anti-tank versus light- and medium armor.
The -1 to damage isn't that big an issue, because you only need to stun or immobilize the tank, then you can finish it with your harpy's attacks in mêlée.

Dreachon
21-02-2010, 19:04
The issue comes though with it beeing a blast, so when the centre scatters over a vehicle you can forget about, it's also a single shot.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 19:08
It's also linked, so you get a re-roll.

Dreachon
21-02-2010, 19:09
True but I'd much rather take it for anti-infantry, there's other nids that do it's job far better for a lesser cost.

naloth
21-02-2010, 19:49
Linked guns with strength-9 are completely acceptable for anti-tank versus light- and medium armor.
The -1 to damage isn't that big an issue, because you only need to stun or immobilize the tank, then you can finish it with your harpy's attacks in mêlée.

While I agree that S9 is pretty good, it being a blast isn't a positive for vehicle hunting. The -1 dmg is a pretty big issue because you're rarely going to destroy anything and less likely to inflict any result that matters against many vehicles.

The notion of destroying it in CC is a joke since the harpy would have to be within 6" after it immobilized it and then roll decently with its 3 (2+1 assault) attacks.

The harpy needed 4 attacks and a decent WS.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 20:14
To be perfectly honest, I'm still not sure what role the harpy is supposed to play, but that's the best we've come up with so far.

Anti-infantry is also covered by your entire army.

Rydmend
21-02-2010, 20:45
To be perfectly honest, I'm still not sure what role the harpy is supposed to play, but that's the best we've come up with so far.

Anti-infantry is also covered by your entire army.

I sometimes use 2 harpy and they do pretty well. They are fast moving fire-support units with the ability to stop transports and drop large blasts, they need to be dealt with or they will bother you all game.

I think the key to using them is to make sure they are not your only fire support option (they should never be your main anti-transport killer) and to make sure you have plenty other juicy MC targets on the table so they don't get burned down.

Comrade Penguin
21-02-2010, 21:38
The harpy is an incredibly cool unit, but it is way too fragile. Two heavy bolters can take one out pretty easily, and considering how cheap h. bolters are I would be surprised if the harpy ever lived past turn two. Also its supposed size means that cover saves are hard to come by.

On another note, I have become increasingly impressed with hormagants. I used them back in the old days when they were 12 pts (with tox sacs), so the points drop is a godsend. And that I 5 means that they tear through a lot of units before they get a chance to strike back. A + in my book.

Max Jet
21-02-2010, 21:40
and to make sure you have plenty other juicy MC targets on the table so they don't get burned down.

In my experience that never works.
First of all, a Trygon or Hyve Tyrant will be shot with different weapons than a Harpie which requires nothing more than basic anti infantry weapons or one single S10 hit.
Furthermore you can pick out an expensive MC that takes up a slot on it's one with so little effort. Why would anyone choose to wound another Creature when he could completely vaporize this one? Sounds like a really bad tactic to me.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 21:55
Strength-10 isn't exactly common.
I'd be more worried about autocannons.

Morgrad
22-02-2010, 03:50
I'll probably run two units of 20 gargoyles with the Parasite for synapse. If the unit he's with gets shot up, he can switch to the other on the following turn. It effectively gives you 40+ ablative wounds for your flying synapse, which is pretty nice.

Oh, and the ablative wounds can demolish infantry...

Using the harpy on the same side for anti-tank should pull a lot of the HB and AC fire to the gargoyles, because they'll make a mess of the enemy if left unchecked. So that's an option.

On a side note, spent all day converting up my Parasite of Mortrex, and hopefully will be showing it to warseer soon. =)

WinglessVT2
22-02-2010, 03:56
it should be noted that adrenal glands and toxins make gargoyles rather dangerous.

Rydmend
22-02-2010, 15:37
In my experience that never works.
First of all, a Trygon or Hyve Tyrant will be shot with different weapons than a Harpie which requires nothing more than basic anti infantry weapons or one single S10 hit.
Furthermore you can pick out an expensive MC that takes up a slot on it's one with so little effort. Why would anyone choose to wound another Creature when he could completely vaporize this one? Sounds like a really bad tactic to me.

Don't forget harpies tend to get targeted by autocannons, Hbs, krak missles, and other medium-high stregth weapons. These weapons commonly go towards MC's as well as medium sized infantry like your zoanthropes, warriors and raveners.

I use my harpies for harrassment and forcing my opponent to make target priority choices but I don't base my list around them. If my harpies get vaporized early on that means my opponent fired at least 10 but more likely 20-30 shots from weapons that could have done way more damage to me elsewere.

Riptacus
22-02-2010, 16:42
With Adrenal Glands, you have a fairly decent anti-tank and anti-infantry option. You can fly over an enemy infantry unit and drop 3 templates on them in 1 turn.

...

The key is to keep him at a distance.
Those two suggestions are directly opposed to each other, yet you had no problem recommending one right after the other.

The Harpies suffers a little bit from T-Fex syndrome. The best upgrade weapon for it to take is an anti-tank one, but its default weapons are strictly anti-infantry.

I don't see the Spore Mine bombardment ever being very useful. It'd be good against foot-slogging Orks that have already closed with you, I suppose. In most other cases attempting to use it would require to put your Harpie in a suicidal position, and it's already vulnerable enough, even at distance.

carl
22-02-2010, 19:04
Last 'dex I'd typically run 2 sniper-fexs, a walking tyrant with a guard or two, and a flappy tyrant - so 4 MCs and a variety of assorted gribblies to back them up. Usually at least 2 squads of non-upgraded 'stealers, 2 squads of 4 tyranid warriors (one shooty and one choppy), a couple zoeys, then gargoyles/hormagaunts/whatever.

I'd mix it up a bit, but the most MCs I ever brought was 5, and that was once - because I wanted to try a close-combat carnifex.

I never once used elite 'fexs or dakka-fexs.

So 4 MCs, 8 warriors, and 40-70 little guys, depending on what I felt like doing that day.

The only guys with flesh hooks were my carnifexs, just to burn the last point or two in the list. I also almost never upgraded the save for anything, so I don't see the complaint about that impacting my play much, either.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you;).

I';d say the fact that you had 2 CC tyrants, 2 Dakka Fex's and some shooty warriors goes a LONG way towards anwsering things. not only do you have a fair number of MC's. you've also got another chunk of your army in shooty guys. Plus 2 fire magnets in your Genestealers, (how often did they survive to hit CC in your games).

I also guess it depends on opponnents and your boards.

But a few mathhammer nubers show that basic tac marines should be killing off 2 Genestealers who charge them, (or 4 guants). Any kind of CC specalist can easily double up those numbers. Thats a significant part of both squads gone before they get to do any damage. It littrially is the diffrance between a squad coming out mualed and largely intact.

I mean if Guants and genestealers where cheap enough then ok, but they aren't THAT cheap.

DuskRaider
23-02-2010, 00:49
Well, I played against the new Nids today, and while I did win... they were nasty. It was my friend's first time using the new 'dex so it was a a learning experience. He's played Nids since 3rd Edition, but said the new book is a completely different dynamic from the last one. The Tyrannofex itself is a nasty choice and made short work of a couple of my Trukks (it's a sissy in CC, though).

The Doom of Malan'thai (or whatever)... Broken? Almost... on the verge of broken. But it falls like a sack to ID (thank GOD). This bastich took out a good portion of a Trukk Boyz squad before falling on my Mega Armored Warboss' Power Klaw, which I got lucky and just skipped from combat to combat to reach him.

Hive Guard are just nasty. A STR 8 weapon that ignores TERRAIN?! Yeah, that's a scary idea. To make things worse, it's actually (almost) as durable in CC as an MC.

Gaunts (or Gants, they're all the same to me) really hit hard when charging into CC. They ripped a Trukk Boy squad to pieces on the charge before they could strike, and were subsequentally ripped to shreds by a Slugga squad on the next turn, proving whomever gets the charge will probably win between these two.

Warriors with Boneswords are brutal. Granted, a squad with a Warboss doesn't have as much to worry about (thankfully he didn't take two), but they're still nasty.

Trygons can be massively effective against basic infantry, but when there's more elite troops in the mix he becomes noticeably less of a threat. Nobz make short work of this guy, which isn't saying much since they make short work of pretty much anything.

In all, the new codex is actually quite nasty. When I say it was a close game, I'm talking about "I had a Warboss and 5 Burnas left" close. Very close. I think all the negativity for the new 'dex comes down to a few things: People are taking other people's word for it and slamming it before they use it, or they just don't know how to play good. No offense, but it's just the way I see it.

WinglessVT2
23-02-2010, 00:57
More like people field 3+ tervigons, then complain that an army with nothing that can move, nothing that has a better gun than a boltpistol, and nothing that's choppy in combat sucks.

Also, the hive mind would like to know what you faced, and what you fielded.

DuskRaider
23-02-2010, 01:09
I fielded the following:

HQ:
Mega Armored Warboss
-Attack Squig
-Cybork Body

Elite:
Burna Boyz x 12

Troops:
Mega Armored Nobz x 5
-Battle Wagon
-4 x Big Shootas
-Deff Rolla

Trukk Boyz:
-Nob
-Power Klaw
-Shootas
-Big Shoota
-Trukk
-Red Paint Job

Trukk Boyz:
-Nob
-Power Klaw
-Shootas
-Big Shoota
-Trukk
-Red Paint Job

Trukk Boyz:
-Nob
-Power Klaw
-Shootas
-Big Shoota
-Trukk
-Red Paint Job

Heavy:
Looted Wagon
-Boom Gun
-2 x Big Shootas
-'Ard Case
-Red Paint Job

Looted Wagon
-Skorcha
-2 x Rokkit Launchas
-Red Paint Job

It was a 1300 point army. From what I remember he fielded, it went something like this:

HQ:
Tyranid Prime
-Bone Sword
-Lash Whip
-Death Spitter

Elite:
Zoanthropes x 3

Hive Guard x 3

Doom of Malan'thai

Troops:
Hormagants x 30

Termagaunts x 20

Warriors x 3
-Death Spitter x 2
-Barbed Strangler

Heavy Support
Tyrannofex
-Regeneration
-Rupture Cannon
-Flame weapon (Hellhound equivalent)
-Some Punisher equivalent weapon

Trygon
-Regeneration

I think that was about it. My knowledge of the new codex isn't really the best as far as specifics (and my memory is completely horrible), but I think I got it all right. As a test list, I thought it was actually pretty good.

Edit: Forgot about the Trygon, and the Tyrannofex had regen. I got everything else corrected as well.

Morgrad
23-02-2010, 01:42
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you;).

No worries - I've got a job where I can't surf the web, too! :)


I';d say the fact that you had 2 CC tyrants, 2 Dakka Fex's and some shooty warriors goes a LONG way towards anwsering things. not only do you have a fair number of MC's. you've also got another chunk of your army in shooty guys. Plus 2 fire magnets in your Genestealers, (how often did they survive to hit CC in your games).

Last codex a solid mix of MCs, gribblies, bashy, and shooty worked very, very well for me. I am tempted with the new list to try a no-MC list at 1850, but then it makes all the enemy AT go after things like warriors - which hurts a lot with ID. But I guarantee I'll still try it a couple times, for laughs if no other reason. Part of my problem is that I often play in tournaments with 2 hour time limits, and moving massive numbers of models means you only get to play 3 turns - especially if up against another horde army.

It depends on the game with the stealers - sometimes they'd get wiped out before charging, sometimes they'd make it unscathed. It all depends on what you can get in your opponents face and force him to deal with first. Of course, sometimes my gribblies were 36 genestealers. :evil:


But a few mathhammer nubers show that basic tac marines should be killing off 2 Genestealers who charge them, (or 4 guants). Any kind of CC specalist can easily double up those numbers. Thats a significant part of both squads gone before they get to do any damage. It littrially is the diffrance between a squad coming out mualed and largely intact.

Very true, but such is life (or death, in this case). As much as possible, I'd hit someone with multiple squads at the same time, and many games I'd end the game with multiple squads with only 2-3 guys left. It's important to move your guys in combat groups - not just squads. You know you're going to get shot up, but if you still get there with enough to demolish your target (even if you're "crippled" after), you still end up with something on that part of the board while your opponent has nothing.

A squad of 2 genestealers can still take an objective at the end of the game, so ripped up squads change focus.

Besides, if there aren't tyranid bits flying all over the place to add some flavor, the rippers feel jilted when the battle is over.


I mean if Guants and genestealers where cheap enough then ok, but they aren't THAT cheap.

Yep, but it's cost-benefit. 16pt genestealers vs. 24pt genestealers means lots of points for other things. It's the same reason my MCs NEVER had 2+ saves. For those points, I can add more models, which is almost always better. The tendency of people last 'dex to ignore warriors if there are genestealers around was common - and scything/rending warriors were as good as 'stealers in combat, and if you charge together, you really make a general mess of things.

Besides, 6 'stealers at 50% more points means 9 stealers at base. So if I lose 2 on the charge, who cares? And if you're not in cover, I get 3 more stealers eating your face before you get to go.

Of course, with the new 'dex, I don't even consider gargoyles 6pt troops - they're 8pts - because FC/toxin is AWESOME for 2pts per model.


More like people field 3+ tervigons, then complain that an army with nothing that can move, nothing that has a better gun than a boltpistol, and nothing that's choppy in combat sucks.

Balanced armies ALWAYS beat imbalanced ones (assuming the same skill-level at playing - not list creation). You need enough of everything and not too much of anything - AT, choppy, shooty, survivability, objective grabbers, speed, etc. I will, at some point, field a 3 tervigon list for the hell of it - but it's going to have everything else balancing the lack of punch from termigants and their mommies.

The balancing act of list creation is extremely important in 40k, and is too often overlooked in favor of one-trick ponies. What you get for your points - not what's on the table, but what it's going to do for you - is a cost/benefit that a lot of people just don't understand.

"This unit is SIIIIIIIIIIIIICK". True - but it's going to kill two or three of my units the entire game, and costs as much as five. In the meantime, the rest of my army is going to obliterate the rest of yours, then grab objectives at the end of the game while your uber-unit slaughters something that doesn't matter.

Man I love this game. OK, off to finish my Parasite!

Revelations
23-02-2010, 01:53
Heavy Support
Tyrannofex
-Regeneration
-Rupture Cannon
-Flame weapon (Hellhound equivalent)
-Some Punisher equivalent weapon
Here I am trying to correct you without my Codex handy:shifty:, but I'm under the impression that the t-fex chooses one of those weapons, not all 3. Or I'd think we'd see a lot more of them.

DuskRaider
23-02-2010, 02:48
Yeah, I'm not sure... But I did see him use all three, which at first I thought it would only have one. Regardless, it's a nasty unit that took out my Boom Wagon before I even got to use it, so I put it at the top of my hit list, lol.

Lazarus15
23-02-2010, 03:09
In all, the new codex is actually quite nasty. When I say it was a close game, I'm talking about "I had a Warboss and 5 Burnas left" close. Very close. I think all the negativity for the new 'dex comes down to a few things: People are taking other people's word for it and slamming it before they use it, or they just don't know how to play good. No offense, but it's just the way I see it.

Check my sig. I have an Evil Sunz army, however my main is Tyranids. This weekends tourney (I did take top honors! :cool: ) I played against a Bad Moons/Evil Sunz mix army. It was tough, however, knowing what to kill and having played the army alot, I swung back and smashed the guy after his initial assault. Very good tough game, but I cannot state it strongly enough that you are not playing your army right or have a poor make up if you are complaining about some of these things.

DuskRaider
23-02-2010, 03:29
I'm not complaining about anything and I definitely know how to play my Orks, all I'm saying is that the Tyranid codex isn't the pile of garbage people are crying about. I was playing a friendly game against a close friend of mine, however if it were a tournament environment I can think of a few lists that would probably leave a similar list as he used against me in the ground. But isn't the point of a friendly game just to have fun and try different lists?

Morgrad
23-02-2010, 05:24
The new tyranid 'dex rules. Synergy, synergy, synergy, and synergy. The biggest mistake people make is comparing it unit by unit.

carl
23-02-2010, 23:52
@Morgrad: Oh i agree with your points cost arguments. However Frags haven't been heavily pricced of late, even for very good CC specelists.

16pt's vs 24pts is sound. 16 vs 17 isn't so much. Which is the real issue here. Frags aren't some super expensive upgrade that lets you get 10's of extra models in a typical army by not taking. They're barely even enough for a single extra unit.

Which is where i see the isue with their lack in the new codex. The old codex you could on some units justify leaving them home. The same could rarely be said of 1 and 2 pt frags in the current dex, (if they existed).

Morgrad
24-02-2010, 00:26
Right, but a) we don't get them, so it doesn't matter, and b) that's why a lot of "must have" upgrades per Warseer simply weren't must-haves.

4+ saves on 'stealers, 2+ saves on MCs, flesh hooks on almost anything.

The lack of assault grenades in the new 'dex just means different tactics - for you and your opponent. It means nothing to me. :)

Lazarus15
24-02-2010, 04:21
If stealers had the ability to be upgraded with flesh hooks in the new book, I personally think that would be over the top. I think they points paid accurately reflect the potential of the unit....you already are getting a much better value than in the previous book. Anything that can almost wipe out a 10+man strong stealer squad before they can attack....you probably shouldn't be charging and you have made a mistake somewhere.

ghoulio
24-02-2010, 05:48
I have been playing 40k for almost 20 years, 15 of those have been spent playing Tyranids. This is my fourth Tyranid Codex with this army and I have to say I have never been as frustrated with 40k as I am right now. The reason I say this is because nothing in the book is clear at all. It seems like every special rule we have fits in to some grey area where you can read it many different ways. Here are some examples.

- When I first started making army lists I had 2 hive tyrants together with Hive Commander so I could field (if needed) a complete reserve army as the rule states: "If a Hive Tyrant has the Hive Commander upgrade, a single unit of Troops may outflank. In addition, whilst the Hive Tyrant is alive you add +1 to your reserve rolls". Now, when first reading it I read it as almost the exact same as the Eldar's Autarch ability (ie they stack, since it doesn't say otherwise). Now people are saying that they don't stack, that the Hive Tyrant has to be on the board to use it, etc. After writing the IG codex with a similar rule you would THINK Cruddace would have the foresight to actually clear this up.

- Mawloc's deepstrike (don't worry, I won't get into it lol)

- Doom of Malantai. Man, the amount of arguments this model's rules alone cause is crazy, especially when dealing with cover saves and vehicles.

Basically, almost all of my frustrations with this codex would be cleared up by a good GW Errata. I just think that it is sloppy to bring out a product that NEEDS an Errata even before it hits the shelves, thats all.

Lazarus15
24-02-2010, 06:35
They have been doing errata's for over 12 years now. Kinda beating a dead horse a little.

Pink Horror
24-02-2010, 08:03
I still think that most players undervalue the "fun" factor. Sure, if you take the units 1 vs 1 against some other codices they might not be overwhelming, but the fun factor with nids is all the rules that give synergy to other units.

I call overt synergy special rules a lazy, annoying, anti-fun factor that is more like playing Magic: the Gathering or Warmachine than 40k. I prefer the synergy that naturally comes along when it is good to have infantry support your tanks (preventing assaults on rear armour), elite sergeants in your squads (powerfists), or a critical mass of unit selections (mech guard, old nidzilla).

So, the Tyranids have plenty of forced synergy, but the natural synergy is flawed, thanks to how No Retreat! works. You actually have to try to keep certain kinds of units separate from each other. It's also very hard to split up a Tyranid army because Synapse is either very expensive or slow. It's hard to make a varied force because there are lots of essential units and few slots for them: anti-armour is going to eat a couple elite slots, and synapse is going to take a few more. Someone mentioned an all-wing army. I don't know how you will do that, because wings are not in troops. You only have three fast slots. The best you can do is a winged detachment. What happened to units that let us screw with the force chart?