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enigma-96
26-02-2010, 03:07
On the lasgun issue being able to throw it in a fire and recharge it, which by the way has a chance of permanently damaging it, isn't really that advanced since one can look at the AK again, the lasgun equiv, and see how easy it is to make ammo for it. Sure by comparison to the lasgun it's much harder but when you look at both guns in their respective time frames you see that both are easy to create ammunition for in comparison to all the other guns. Again though this doesn't really make it technologically advanced, just really really well created and easy to integrate into other arms lines.

I don't have much time right now so I'll leave you with this to ponder:
Lasgun: A futuristic peashooter that in real life would be very inefficient at wounding human creatures due to wound cauterization.
Pulse Rifle: A futuristic rifle that in real life would actually cause a great deal of damage to the intended target due to the melting of the hit area. Melting not burning

Fluff wise just look at the two weapon profiles and one can see that one is doing sub par damage with no AP at all while the other is doing damage equivocal to a HB, has a longer range while still sustaining the same rate of fire, and has an AP value that is the same as a bolter, the lesser cousin of the HB, so yeah tech wise, atleast in the standard weapon sense, the Tau either have a better weapon or a more common weapon that is still on equal footing depending on which Imperial you compare it to, Lasgun and Bolter respectively.

sabreu
26-02-2010, 03:28
On the lasgun issue being able to throw it in a fire and recharge it, which by the way has a chance of permanently damaging it, isn't really that advanced since one can look at the AK again, the lasgun equiv, and see how easy it is to make ammo for it. Sure by comparison to the lasgun it's much harder but when you look at both guns in their respective time frames you see that both are easy to create ammunition for in comparison to all the other guns. Again though this doesn't really make it technologically advanced, just really really well created and easy to integrate into other arms lines.

The lasgun is out and out the AK of the 40k universe: easy to produce, easy to maintain and even better easy to reload. Despite the weapon itself and it's capabilities, it truly is more technology advanced in regards to it's ammunition type. Durability and sustainability are the hallmarks of technological progress, not sheer stopping power.


I don't have much time right now so I'll leave you with this to ponder:
Lasgun: A futuristic peashooter that in real life would be very inefficient at wounding human creatures due to wound cauterization.
Pulse Rifle: A futuristic rifle that in real life would actually cause a great deal of damage to the intended target due to the melting of the hit area. Melting not burning

1.) Lasgun: That's still a cauterized heart, lungs, or other major organs. Your still dead.
2.) A 50 cal can kill you without actually hitting, if the round just flies by close enough. That doesn't make it more advanced because it has collateral damage capabilities.


Fluff wise just look at the two weapon profiles and one can see that one is doing sub par damage with no AP at all while the other is doing damage equivocal to a HB, has a longer range while still sustaining the same rate of fire, and has an AP value that is the same as a bolter, the lesser cousin of the HB, so yeah tech wise, atleast in the standard weapon sense, the Tau either have a better weapon or a more common weapon that is still on equal footing depending on which Imperial you compare it to, Lasgun and Bolter respectively.

For starters, the lasgun is a fairly great weapon against humans which it was probably designed to kill. It wounds on 4+ against other humans (and Tau for that matter). Carapace and Flak armor can mitigate the damage, true enough, but that was probably what led to the invention of the hot-shot lasguns, which can rip through power armor. The Tau weapons are strong I won't argue, but I believe the rules reflect more of their mentality than technology. They seem to have completely leaped over conventional rifles and armed all of their troopers with support weapons (for example, if we armed all our marines and army soldiers with saws instead of rifles).

The Orange
26-02-2010, 04:50
1. Fluff =/= Rules
2. On the issue of lasguns and other inferior IoM tech. It is not that the IoM does not have advanced tech it's that they have chosen to use that which is more reliable and easy to produce. You can't just look at the codex and say "here look the pulse rifle is so much more uber then the lasgun, clearly Tau are superior". Look at the plasmagun, it's far superior to the pulse rifle and it's one-man portable unlike the Tau's XV-8 mounted version. And the only reason IoM version is more dangerous is because the Tau chose to go with the weaker/safer version of plasma tech.

Don't forget that SM fall under the IoM, which represent superior/more compact armor, superior warfare training, as well as some damn crazy bio-engineering.

The Tau have better stats for one main reason, because the Tau Empire chooses to field a more elite and well equipped army. The fact that the basic Imperial Guardmen isn't as well equipped does not at all reflect the tech level of the IoM. Simply it shows that the value of an IG in the IoM is far less then the value of a Firewarrior in the Tau Empire.

borithan
26-02-2010, 07:34
Actually, Imperial tech is miles ahead of the Tau, who by the way are playing a huge catch up game. The only true strength the Tau have is they understand their tech, and will prove extremely powerful if they can progress long enough to get to imperial levels.Well, yes the Imperium is more advanced, but the Tau make better use of their technology to make better weapons with a lower tech base.

Of course they don't have to deal with various problems that the Imperium does. The better understanding of technology is one, as is the smaller size of the Tau Empire, and the more consistent tech level of its planets.


Then the warpstorm, then they came back some time later (hundreds or thousands of years later, cant remember) and they had advanced as a civilization on an unknown level.I think it was about 2000.


Digital weapons that are as effective as real ones,Well... that isn't really Imperial tech. Those fall under the tech of certain orange haired creatures.


Lasgun: A futuristic peashooter that in real life would be very inefficient at wounding human creatures due to wound cauterization.A discussion about that has been had, but while some areas of the wound would be cauterised due to the way a laser weapon is likely to work there would probably be quite a lot of bleeding.


2.) A 50 cal can kill you without actually hittingWhat?

mughzee
26-02-2010, 09:14
I didnt' read everything so I don't know if this has been said yet. If so, sorry. There's definately alot of say on it.

So. For those of you who haven't been around during their inception this gives a better picture. For those that have you know what I mean.

when we heard they were coming out with a new army alot of people were psycked about it actually, we saw Kroot pics and thought rad, then some Tau and leaks and were like Hmm....then business rose it's ugly head and we all knew GW had opened shop in Japan, but wasn't doing too hot So bam, we got Tau and I think that the old heads look at it and shake their heads thinking we could have really got a good new army, but in actuality we got a marketing scheme. That's how I and a few friends saw it. I still do. I like Tau, but they really did an injustice when they skimped out on the idea of taking "other" races, or that you were limited on your Kroot. Or how they could have done a Demaurg (SP?) Army, not Squat army, but a Merchant/Rogue Traderesk army that could have incorperated so much more of 40k Lore and they didn't instead we have Tau. And Tau forever more will hold that Albastross about their necks.

Dyrnwyn
26-02-2010, 09:43
I think it was about 2000.

Six. Six thousand years. The Imperium found them banging rocks together in caves six thousand years ago, in M35, and didn't encounter them again until M41.

MegaPope
26-02-2010, 10:10
Six. Six thousand years. The Imperium found them banging rocks together in caves six thousand years ago, in M35, and didn't encounter them again until M41.

Ah, if only that exterminator fleet from Triplex Phall had made it through the warpstorm, eh? ;)

If you think about it, the Tau actually do fit into 40Kverse rather well:

They have high technology for one reason, and one reason only, and it is this - without it, they are are bunch of weedy little greys who get curbstomped by the average Imperial Guard grunt (not that you'd know it from most of the background, but the game itself makes this brutally apparent).

So they shield themselves with what they believe to be high tech (which is mostly not quite the equivalent of Imperial museum pieces) and by the thoroughly reprehensible practice of employing (expendable) alien allies (slaves) who they have enticed into their empire of the 'Greater Good' (Greater East Ultima Co-Prosperity Sphere) usually by the application of a few little bits of obsolete tech (beads, coloured cloth) and often a healthy dose of Sudden Aerial Bombardment Syndrome.

As as result, to my mind they manage to be unpleasant in ways that the Imperium of Man can only dream of - The Imperials will kill your people, steal your resources and destroy your civilisation because they are immensely paranoid about anything that isn't human (and quite a bit that is, to be fair) usually with very good reason.
The Tau however, will kill your people, steal your resources and destroy your civilisation and claim to be doing you a favour.

At least the Imperials are honest about things, and they fight their own battles.

As to why the Tau get up a lot of people's noses (which is ironic, given that they themselves do not have noses) I'd say it's probably the plot armour. It used to be gameplay - MSM being a vile mechanic in just about any game system that doesn't have complementary rules to defend against it - overwatch, anyone? But now it's just the fact that they are the Mary-Sue of the 40K backstory. They need to undergo a few more disasters...like finding out why things can get REALLY messy when one of their Gue'vesa starts manifesting wierd mind-warping powers and growing horns out of his elbows...

carl
26-02-2010, 10:52
@sabreu: I think it's defintly a case of diffrent terms here.

I'm looking at the underlying tech involved in what makes both guns function. the Lasguin may be all the things you make it out to be. but it's still very simple laser tech, albiet in a more advanced state.

The Pulse rifle is plasma tech, (somthing we know is more advanced than lasgun tech anyway), and is effectivlly completly stable whilst still being fairly powerful. Somthing the IoM has so far demonstrated an inability to produce.

Your points on digi weapons and Servo Skulls are fairer i guess, and it's fair to say that the IoM has a miniturisation advantage with their tech when they choose to, (defintly a form of advancment), on the other hand as soon as you get to the larger sizes it becomes clear the IoM tech is less efficent as they struggle to produce large anti-grav units, (off the top of my head i can't even think of a devilfish sized IoM anti-grav, though i may have forgoten somthing). To be fair theirs a point of argumentation there i admit, which is more advanced, the one that is smaller or the one that can support bigger loads? It's a bit like arguing weather an HMG is more advanced than an M16. Without more detailed knowlage of the inner workings diffrances we can't say.

A similar point applies with IoM AI. They have servitiors and the like which are used for similar urposes, (though no au ones are fitted for CC duties natrually enough). Given how much smaller Tau Drone tech is and the totall all round use of Anti-Grav on them i'd say they have a major technologichal advantage in the feild of automated items.


Every battle field the IoM and Tau have clashed against each other, the IoM has sent half of a half-hearted effort. But I digress. The IoM more advanced tech stretches far more in the battlefield and in civilian use than the Tau. The IoM have pocket sized forcefields (Rosarius'), Displacer fields integrated into Flak/carapace armor, Digital weapons that are as effective as real ones, Mind impulse units, Gauntlets that rip tanks apart (powerfists), Bionic replacements for lost limbs that can be indistinguishable from real limbs (although, the Tech-priests favor more machiny looking things), Cyberization of human life (Arco-flaggalation, Servitors, etc), Hive Cities, Terra-forming, etc, etc. In the short, It will take the Tau about 20,000 years more to go before they are close to being on equal footing.

The problem with that littile list is it includes a lot of things that fall outside Tau philosiphy, expiriance, and most importantly, need.

The Tau don't mess around with cybernetics, or super CC weapons, or Hive Cities or such like because they just haven't found a practical need for them yet. As and when they feel the need to have them they can attempt to build them. And as i';ve allready pointed out. Given the Tau's current advantages in many other are's i fully expect the Tau to quickly overhual the IoM in these area's once they bother to actually try.

Thats very much and apples to opranges comparision in my eye's. Thats also why i limited my comparision to general bettlefiled items that the Tau and IoM both have equivelents of. To make sure where comparing things for which their is a comparision.