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Plague.Monk
21-02-2010, 02:12
And I was basically wondering why? Is it because their underpowered, or maybe cheap? Every one of my friends except one that I know that play 40K just don't like this army what so ever.

So why all the hub bub. . . bub?

wazatdingder
21-02-2010, 02:24
They're kinda sissies. The mech is more appealing to Anime fans. They 40k community has alway consisted of a more "Metal" base and they're more "Techno." It's a cultural thing, we gotta haze the sissies.

Plague.Monk
21-02-2010, 02:25
They're kinda sissies. The mech is more appealing to Anime fans. They 40k community has alway consisted of a more "Metal" base and they're more "Techno." It's a cultural thing, we gotta haze the sissies.

ahhh i got ya. . . i always thought of Heavy Gear when I saw them myself haha.

Dervos
21-02-2010, 02:30
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o190/Ceror/1228882751422.jpg

Yes it would seem the Tau are not liked for some reason :/

Maybe a new codex would revive them

rhelsius
21-02-2010, 02:31
I guess they need some more variety to appeal to a wider public. More new races to run wild into converting and painting, with lots of options to form as different an army as possible.

Plague.Monk
21-02-2010, 02:32
Their bare faces look like a cross between an Na'vi and Mordin from Mass Effect 2.

Dyrnwyn
21-02-2010, 02:33
I think alot of the dislike towards Tau stems from two sources.

One is the perceived weeaboo nature of the Tau, with their giant mecha, hopeful fluff, and smooth lines. Alot of 40k players are vocal in that the Tau don't fit into the grimdark grimness of the 41st millennium. I disagree, but that's their opinion to have. This isn't helped by some white knights claiming the Tau are the only good guys in 40k.

The other lies in playstyle. The Tau army used to feature alot of ways to simply deny your enemy any shots. Jump-Shoot-Jump hid Crisis suits, Long range AT and infantry fire meant Tau could hit from further back than most weapons, Steath Fields flat out denied shots. The army was built around not letting opponents shoot back at anything, and could be very frustrating to play against in 4th ed. 5th ed has mitigated alot of the Tau's target denial strategies - JSJ only works around solid cover rather than almost any cover and can't be done out of woods anymore. Longer ranges have been blunted by faster assaults due to the run rule. Near universal cover has also hurt Tau lists, letting more assaulters reach Tau lines. The list is weaker, but the stigma still remains.

wazatdingder
21-02-2010, 02:33
They also are an odd fit for the fluff of 40k, when someone who plays other armies starts a Tau army they do so with a knowledge of their place in the universe. When a Noobie walks in thinking the Tau are the end all of 40k you just want to slap them. For one, it's not a noob friendly army. Secondly, they are normally the sort of people that need to be slapped.

Lord of Worms
21-02-2010, 02:35
I guess they need some more variety to appeal to a wider public. More new races to run wild into converting and painting, with lots of options to form as different an army as possible.

Kroot are cool. I bought a couple of them to make into mercs for my thousand sons. When they started previewing the greens for the "upcoming army" they didn't show any Tau, just Kroot sketches and greens. I was excited, until I saw the battlesuits and read about their Space Communism. :wtf:

Dyrnwyn
21-02-2010, 02:39
Kroot are cool. I bought a couple of them to make into mercs for my thousand sons. When they started previewing the greens for the "upcoming army" they didn't show any Tau, just Kroot sketches and greens. I was excited, until I saw the battlesuits and read about their Space Communism. :wtf:

It's really more Space Colonialism. They're more like the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere or the British Empire than the USSR or Cuba.

After all, stiff upper lip and all that, good fellow! It's the blue man's burden to bring the light of the Greater Good to the dark jungles of the rest of the galaxy. After all, all those mucking savages have got to be saved from themselves! ;)

Morgrad
21-02-2010, 02:40
I just don't like the models. I like kroot, but the rest of the models are completely unappealing to me.

CapitanGuinea
21-02-2010, 02:51
first reason: they are xenos

second reason: they had token the place of the Squat with ... a disgustive background

third reason: they are... nothing! they doesn't fit at all in the Dark Millennium. I expect for their total annihilation or removal from the game.

Lord of Worms
21-02-2010, 02:53
second reason: they had token the place of the Squat with ... a disgustive background


I concur. Squats and Chaos Dwarves would be much more welcome.:cool:

szlachcic
21-02-2010, 02:53
For me it is mainly because I don't like anime or anime-inspired things. They never quite fit in the 40k universe IMO. To a lesser extent I don't like their playstyle and I have known several Tau players which made bad opponents which unfortunately gives me a preconceived notion of what to expect from a "Tau player."

AbusePuppy
21-02-2010, 03:03
Firstly, people see battlesuits and think "omg animu so sissygirl not MANLY like SPAEC MAREENS!" Because clearly dudes wearing magic armor with superhuge guns that constantly want to charge into melee have nothing to do with anime. Oh, and don't forget the Warrior's Ethos.

Secondly, they don't have enough skulls and torture and rape to fit in with the grim darkness of the darkness of the grim future's dark grimness. They ever did anything nice once! They don't fit with the fluff AT ALL, because the Imperium is all murder and skulls, all the time!

Thirdly, they have plot armor that protects them from dying. Unlike, say, the Marine chapters, most of which have been slaughtered down to 3-4 dudes at least seventeen times over the past one hundred years.

And lastly, their army is super-weak if you build it poorly and spam their crappy troop choices in transports with no fire points, ignoring the preponderance of S10, S7, and S6 guns with low AP and long range available on high-mobility units. Because if your army isn't all troops, all the time, you're basically a cheater.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 03:08
They're very hard to play, and most who have tried them did so after being told that firewarriors are dead-good, then they got conned into buying/trading lots of them.

Their book has very few choices, and out of these, only a handful are actually good.
What tau is is a foot army that's deadly, redeploys as fast as mech, and points their guns at the sides of your tanks no matter what you think about it. Once they're done with their turn, they jump away from you, and they do all this while pretty much ignoring terrain, since everything you want to field is either a skimmer or jump infantry (jetpack).

They're also hated for another, very important reason: crowbar'd into the background.
They came out of nowhere, and didn't get much actual backstory until their 4th edition codex, and even with that by your side, there's still not a whole lot of it to read.

Lord of Worms
21-02-2010, 03:08
Firstly, people see battlesuits and think "omg animu so sissygirl not MANLY like SPAEC MAREENS!" Because clearly dudes wearing magic armor with superhuge guns that constantly want to charge into melee have nothing to do with anime. Oh, and don't forget the Warrior's Ethos.

Secondly, they don't have enough skulls and torture and rape to fit in with the grim darkness of the darkness of the grim future's dark grimness. They ever did anything nice once! They don't fit with the fluff AT ALL, because the Imperium is all murder and skulls, all the time!

Thirdly, they have plot armor that protects them from dying. Unlike, say, the Marine chapters, most of which have been slaughtered down to 3-4 dudes at least seventeen times over the past one hundred years.

And lastly, their army is super-weak if you build it poorly and spam their crappy troop choices in transports with no fire points, ignoring the preponderance of S10, S7, and S6 guns with low AP and long range available on high-mobility units. Because if your army isn't all troops, all the time, you're basically a cheater.

Yes. Now you got it!:p

scarletsquig
21-02-2010, 03:19
People don't like them because Dark Eldar were supposed to get redone instead.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 03:20
That was necrons.
Tau came out to please the blood angels, dark angels, and space wolves.

Actually, I don't know why tau were made, or what GW was smoking when they decided to add mecha battlesuits to their universe.

Void Reaper
21-02-2010, 03:26
Personally, I dig the Tau for being the only army in 40k with vaguely logical military equipment and strategy (ie, fewer, very well-armed and mobile troops using fluid fire and maneuver tactics). That being said...their fluff needs significant improvement. I like the move they are making toward darkness--mind control over the Vespids, wiping out Imperial civilian populations that don't give in, etc. It's sort of a good tragic arc for them---they enter the galactic stage thinking they can be good and decent and, after getting their butts kicked by the Imperials, Orks, and Tyranids, quickly realize they have to be nasty and ruthless to win. I think if GW takes their fluff more in this direction, things will be better.

On another note, I've been fortunate that I've never encountered any of these super-irritating Tau players people here have mentioned. Are these types rules-as-written abusers? If so...ick.

Kensai
21-02-2010, 03:27
The tau-hating in 40k has always been a concept which makes little sense to me. Many people quote their dislike of the tau's similarity to Anime, yet this makes even less sense in a hobby which is populated in part by nerds.

Last time I checked, many of my fellow nerd friends also like to like to watch Anime.

Void Reaper
21-02-2010, 03:28
The tau-hating in 40k has always been a concept which makes little sense to me. Many people quote their dislike of the tau's similarity to Anime, yet this makes even less sense in a hobby which is populated in part by nerds.

Last time I checked, many of my fellow nerd friends also like to like to watch Anime.

Yeah...that's confused me, too.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 03:36
They weren't as clever about the theft of source-material.

Necrons are terminators, and even have a 'we'll be back'-rule, but they don't look exactly like the terminator, so that's okay.

Tau are just straight-up mechasuits, and even do the little darting 'pewpew'ing across the battlefield when they fight people.

Solar_Eclipse
21-02-2010, 03:39
Ive disliked them because they have very obvious plot armour.

I dont mind plot armour, it's required that something will happen to protect a main character.

But when the Tau, an incredibly small and weak civilisation, get attacked or attack something major, and they always pull something from their ****.

My favorite (alright, most hated) is from the cities of death book.

Basically, you look at the cover and you see Tau in Close Combat. So you think "Well...the tau are screwed. Even against Guard, Tau will suck."

Well you read the story and you watch as that when the Tau ran from that engagement (funnily enough they arent shot down or ran down by the lighter and faster imperial Guard) The Imperial Guard suddenly get possessed by the spirit of a terrier and instead of staying in their nice and cozy fortifications they spent an age building, they decide to charge out and try to nip the Tau's ankles.

Here the Tau show their ingenuiety in that they seem to be able to predict the movements and thinking of an alien race with an entirely different biology, outlook, psychology and brain. Thus they do the "Jump on the Guard while some of us run away" trick, which is a good tactic. But it should only work if the Guard general was a 4 year old.

Then we get stuff like The Taros campaign book, where it goes into huge detail about how the Guard have these huge logistics problems and cant take the heat and such like that.

Problem is that the Tau Harrass the Guard the whole way, never having any of the same logistical problems.

Presumably the Tau are dropped in by Orca or something.

But then why the hell dont the Guard notice it on their long range Auspex?

The only thing i can think of is that the time that the orcas dropped coincided exactly with the operations Lho Stick and Recaff breaks.

To really sum up, The Tau annoy me not because anything that the Tau do, but because they do things which should fail and instead succeed because their plot armour is 20 Inches thick and made of the same stuff R2-D2 and C3-PO use. They never really get any setbacks, their warpjump limitation is mitigated with a half arsed explanation of 'Warp planing" which doesnt make any real sense considering they have no psykers. Finally any fights they get into seem to be won because of "ingenious tactics" like running and then shooting at the same time.

Sigh, that made made more angry than i thought.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 03:49
I dislike the lack of backstory, and Shadowsun.
She's more mary sue than Marneus Calgar, and a lot more boring.
Shadowsun single-handedly destroyed an entire hivefleet - without losing any ships. What she was doing crewing tau vessels, we will never know, since she's fire caste, and not air caste.
After that, she went on and destroyed all the imperial guard ever deployed near their tiny empire, and completely cleansed the outer worlds, all without losing anything of value.

Why can't Farsight be useful, so I can finally field an army that has morals and ideals I agree with, plus is led by a character that's actually interesting and badass for real?

daboarder
21-02-2010, 03:53
Personaly i have no problem with tau, hell if anything they would be my third army if i could afford one. mostly because their playstyle is so different to my BA and NIDS. I also like the amount of FW love they get.

Edit: gotta admit their backstory/fluffarmour REALLY needs to be addressed when they get a redo, I'd like to see alot more join or die type stuff.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 03:54
They're kinda cheap to buy, actually, as long as you avoid the metal things - and you will, since out of all of them, only broadsides have a realistic purpose.

Baracus
21-02-2010, 03:57
People just hate them because in apoc we can get mantas and win the game with a ship that carries 48 fire warriors 1 etheral 8 battle suits and 4 hammer heads plus all the good weapons on it like the heavy rail Cannon.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 03:59
Remember, it one-shots titans.
Right through the void-shields.

Maybe Shadowsun was driving it that day.

Epicenter
21-02-2010, 04:01
People don't like them because of their supposed anime look, their hopeful thing - that's the two big things.

Myself, I'm not a fan of the Tau because they won't commit to the anime look or commit to a more blocky "western modern sci-fi" look. They sort of straddle the line, and that bugs me a lot.

Monospot
21-02-2010, 04:08
They are a space commie hippie commune. With mecha.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 04:09
They're communistic, imperialistic, colonial oppressors, armed with plasmaguns that aren't really plasmaguns, and equipped with 'high-tech' mechasuits, that dart around on open fields, going 'pewpew!' at everything in sight.

I just love my tau so much, but I sincerely hope Shadowsun gets the swarmlord treatment in their next book.
Just because I said that, she's going to end up falcon punching him into an other dimension, while doing a drive-by on him from a looted baneblade, that's on fire.

wazatdingder
21-02-2010, 04:10
On another note, I've been fortunate that I've never encountered any of these super-irritating Tau players people here have mentioned. Are these types rules-as-written abusers? If so...ick.

Generally, they are the sort that brags about how they could have got a free ride to college anywhere they like, and have chosen the local community college. And then they bring a poorly homemade Tau super heavy made with plaster of paris that takes up half the table to an apocalypse game even though everyone drops subtle hints like, "you really shouldn't play that." But it's OK because they got all the exact specifications off the internet, yet they couldn't get ALL the rules.

Actually, I was OK with Tau...before the incident :mad:

wazatdingder
21-02-2010, 04:12
People just hate them because in apoc we can get mantas and win the game with a ship that carries 48 fire warriors 1 etheral 8 battle suits and 4 hammer heads plus all the good weapons on it like the heavy rail Cannon.

See above,

If you have a Manta that is not made out of plaster of paris, bring it.

Farouk
21-02-2010, 04:31
The real problem:

We need Fluff Fire Warriors! A single one of them should be able to dispatch whole Space Marine squads and Dreadnoughts like in the official fluff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000:_Fire_Warrior)! ;) :cheese:

Solar_Eclipse
21-02-2010, 05:21
People just hate them because in apoc we can get mantas and win the game with a ship that carries 48 fire warriors 1 etheral 8 battle suits and 4 hammer heads plus all the good weapons on it like the heavy rail Cannon.

Get a manta and pit it against an equal points value of Thunderbolts, Lightnings and Marauder destroyers.

Its not *that* powerful.

And really, the Imperial Aircraft are easier to buy/make.

sgtfrog19
21-02-2010, 05:53
I always thought that they looked cool and stuff but im just to lazy to learn about them and at the shop i play at there are afew people that play tau, (oh and the fire warrior game was awesome )

Radium
21-02-2010, 06:28
They are a space commie hippie commune. With mecha.

... Which are all bad characteristics.

Tau just don't fit the very western aesthetics of 40k. And an army that only shoots (or worse: jump-shoot-jump) is boring.

e2055261
21-02-2010, 06:44
I don't really get it. I suppose they've not had the time to develop the same amount of background as other armies. At least they're different. The similarity to anime doesn't hold much water for me.

They won't be so unpopular when their new dex finally appears because a) it will have more options for players b) more models will come out (that will look better than the current ones) and c) they will be brought more into line with 5ed rules.

Lord of Worms
21-02-2010, 06:57
The issue isn't wether or not anybody wants to play them, but that people hate their existence. For example, I don't play eldar, nor will I ever. But I like them, I like the contribution they give to the 40k universe, but the Tau are just a dumb faction designed to get people interested in 40k who normally wouldn't be. They bring nothing to the Galactic balance of power and the only reason they weren't wiped out already is that the Imperium can't be bothered because they have real threats to deal with.
I can't blame them for trying, but I don't have to like it.

dtjunkie19
21-02-2010, 07:22
I dislike you all haha.

I enjoy the tau background/tactics/aesthetics/etc.

People just can't seem to accept a race outside of their 40k schema.

A race that uses progressive military tactics? And has a good quality of life? And is collectivist? that doesnt torture or consume the galaxy? and pewpews across the battlefield instead of running forward with a stcik in their hand to bash people on the head? Those bastards!

Vaden
21-02-2010, 07:32
I don't like them, and have never liked them, because in my opinion, moreso than any other army in the game, they are completely 1 dimensional. Even old, outdated armies have variety in their playstyle. Dark Eldar have nice shooting, but also nice CC in Archon/Incubi. Necrons have Wraiths which are nice for getting those heavy support units, but also have some nice shooting. Tau? Tau have shooting. And shooting. Every Tau army I ever see from Tau is always the same, regardless of the army composition. Sit back, shoot, hope nothing gets into CC, and that's it. It's a boring army to play against.

Go figure that my roommate loves them and has a big ole army of them...Guess what I get to play against...

Tenken
21-02-2010, 07:32
The issue isn't wether or not anybody wants to play them, but that people hate their existence. For example, I don't play eldar, nor will I ever. But I like them, I like the contribution they give to the 40k universe, but the Tau are just a dumb faction designed to get people interested in 40k who normally wouldn't be. They bring nothing to the Galactic balance of power and the only reason they weren't wiped out already is that the Imperium can't be bothered because they have real threats to deal with.
I can't blame them for trying, but I don't have to like it.

All eldar bring is "HURR WE MINIPULATED U!!!" They're awful, awful space elves.

Tau bring something completely different. They aren't just another SM faction, or just another cult of crazies worshiping something equally as crazy. They're actually different. Along with orks, and chaos to an extent, I think they're about the only unique race in 40k's otherwise pretty much predictable sci-fi genre.

Tau are awesom, the people who hate them are, I suspect, the same people who get a red ass when someone wants to use a katana in D&D and they're all "ZOMFG ITZ A BASTARD SWORD WEEABOO NOOB!!! I H8 NARUTO N DBZ!!! NINJAS SUX!!1!1" Let people enjoy something different. Variety is the spice of life after all, and the same can be said for gaming.

Creeping Dementia
21-02-2010, 07:40
A lot of players are just jealous of the Tau really :angel:.

They seem to be the only race thats figured out target designation, cruise missile strikes, intigrated battlefield communication networks, and don't rely on WW1 and WW2 style tanks that look like they were mass assembled from Ikea.

I'm just messin', I play some Imperials as well as Tau, and some players just get a dislike for certain armies. For example, I can't stand anything Chaos. Hey great, these Marines are spikey and deformed... but wait... they're also angry!!!. How long did it take to come up with those ideas :rolleyes:.

Shinzui
21-02-2010, 07:50
The issue isn't wether or not anybody wants to play them, but that people hate their existence. For example, I don't play eldar, nor will I ever. But I like them, I like the contribution they give to the 40k universe, but the Tau are just a dumb faction designed to get people interested in 40k who normally wouldn't be. They bring nothing to the Galactic balance of power and the only reason they weren't wiped out already is that the Imperium can't be bothered because they have real threats to deal with.
I can't blame them for trying, but I don't have to like it.

This is a perfect example of Tau dislike based on ignorance rather than actual reason.

There are literally thousands of empires throughout the galaxy like the Tau. Case in point the tyranid codex where a hive fleet destroyed several sectors containing 300+ alien civilizations over the course of its rampage eventually ended by the eldar.

The Imperium doesn't hold even a majority of the galaxy. "Spread thinly across the galaxy" is what the rulebook describes. To say that any smaller empire is crushed is to just ignore the overwhelming evidence. The Imperium forces is overstretch. Logistics and avaliable forces matter no matter how larger you are to your opponent. Look at history for many examples.

Tau was an intelligent addition to the 40k world. They show case a possible minor race on its way to the big leagues (the 5th edition lists examples of half a dozen races including the Tau all forging their own empires in the galaxy).If you've ever heard Jervis on race development that each race bring unique aspects to the galaxy which the Tau do through modern warfare tactics, mechs and the ability to have many different alien auxiliaries.

In my experience people who dislike Tau aren't any more than any other group. Everyone has their likes and dislikes. Usually the people who dislike Tau are just louder. I've probably encountered more people who dislike the concepts of Space Marines and C'tan than Tau.

carldooley
21-02-2010, 07:56
so apparently the most effective build for people right now is 1 commander, 6 firewarrior 'spotters' and a hundred kroot:confused:

enigma-96
21-02-2010, 08:14
Anyone notice how bitter some of the Tau haters sound, especially the one who obviously got conned in to trading models he spent time carefully making but instead decided that winning was more important than the hard work he put into them and thus traded for models that he thought would be insta-win but turned out to require more tactics than the models he traded away; yeah 'cuz that isn't totally biased :rolleyes:

On a side note would people stop calling them communists because their FASCISTS. They're lead by a small elite group of people who gained power by playing on the people's religous beliefs and by spouting racist propaganda that created both a racial superiority complex and a scapegoat mechanism whereby the elite rulers of the Tau can never be blamed because it is 'always' the fault of those inferior races. Likewise their entire empire is built around the concept of war, kinda like the fascist Imperium ;), to the extent that almost all industry in their society is for one purpose and one purpose only, the continuation of a war that has the most immediate benefit of keeping the leaders in power and the lower caste blissfully ignorant of what is really going on or in the case of their soldiers turning them into zealous-racists. What I just described is Germany and Japan, especially Japan in the religous sense, during WW2 both of which were Fascist.
For the Greater Good and Living in harmony with the rest of society is not a sign of communism, the Japanese lived like that for thousands of years. "Rant Over"

I think the Tau are OK but I do think their next codex should have atleast 2-3 new assimilated races in it to spice things up a bit.

*edit Someone mentioned that Shadowsun lead an entire fleet against a Tyraid hive fleet and didn't lose a single ship due to her tactical brilliance, ridiculous right? I agree, except a look at the Doom of Malantai's fluff makes me reconsider how ridiculous that idea really is when taken in context of all the other ridiculous fluff in Warhammer. Oh yeah lets not forget the World Engine incident, cuz that was totally believable :rolleyes:

NightrawenII
21-02-2010, 09:28
I don't like Tau, because they are cowardly-xeno scum, who sit on their arses in the cover, shoot things and then run at the first sight of CC. Not to mention their fluff.

*edit Someone mentioned that Shadowsun lead an entire fleet against a Tyraid hive fleet and didn't lose a single ship due to her tactical brilliance, ridiculous right? I agree, except a look at the Doom of Malantai's fluff makes me reconsider how ridiculous that idea really is when taken in context of all the other ridiculous fluff in Warhammer. Oh yeah lets not forget the World Engine incident, cuz that was totally believable :rolleyes:
Doom of Malan'tais fluff is the worst piece of background I have ever seen. (Yeah, I hate this character and Hive-mind help these poor souls, who will try to field this thing against my Eldar, for the Perils of Nerdrage have no mercy nor leave survivors.:mad:)
and the World Engine incident ended with entire marine chapter destroyed.

Ivellis
21-02-2010, 09:38
Was it not a SPLINTER fleet that Shadowsun defeated? BIG difference there.

Emperor's Scourge
21-02-2010, 09:46
I actually see a lot of similarities between the current Tau Empire and the Imperium during the Great Crusade. Join or die. Compliance or genocide. Emerging technologies. Ruled by a small group of individuals that have convinced everyone else that its in their best interest to give up all their rights and personal beliefs.

I could go on, but there are many differences as well.

Arbiter7
21-02-2010, 09:48
I like T'au. They add variety to the Galaxy. That way it needn't always be ending with space marines and their corrupted brethren exchanging blows 95% of the time, while the Imperial Guard was meatgrinding men with no result.

XENOS FTW! Down with the glorified imperium of Man! :p :p

Born Again
21-02-2010, 09:53
Basically, people don't like Tau because this is a hobby where people like to latch on to something they don't like and obsessively whinge about it, spreading the dissent to any new players they come across instead of just avoiding it themselves.


Kroot are cool. I bought a couple of them to make into mercs for my thousand sons. When they started previewing the greens for the "upcoming army" they didn't show any Tau, just Kroot sketches and greens. I was excited, until I saw the battlesuits and read about their Space Communism. :wtf:

err... actually wasn't a sketch of a Fire Warrior and a Battlesuit the first thing we saw, long before any Kroot appeared? :confused: They're in the Jes Goodwin sketch book...

Radium
21-02-2010, 09:54
XENOS FTW! Down with the glorified imperium of Man! :p :p

I support your view sir (even though the Imperium is a nice distraction for chaos), but bringing down the Imperium is best done one army at a time, with a shuriken catapult in hand and the roar of Khaine in your veins.

Max Jet
21-02-2010, 10:04
Actually, I was OK with Tau...before the incident

No problem Dude. Actually I have a similairy valid reason for hating Space Marines.
Too much identifying with the army and if I hear some comments like "I hate you and your army, just another Xenos.. geeez." It's over.
In my experience Space Marine Players get enfuriated the most when loosing.
How could their poster boys loose to some foul Xenos????
I like Tau players much more and I thank GW for the army, because most of them don't identify with their army.

Arbiter7
21-02-2010, 10:08
...bringing down the Imperium is best done one army at a time, with a shuriken catapult in hand and the roar of Khaine in your veins.

Couldn't have said it better myself. ;)


The only thing that kept me from making a T'au army was their similarity with my Eldar. That's why my second army is going to be from the Imperium: I like the best of both worlds :cool:

Discord
21-02-2010, 10:12
Overall, I like Tau. The models are pretty neat and they have an interesting playstyle. However, I generally dislike Tau in 40k. Why? Because 40k is a space fantasy game. It has space knights in power armour, wielding chainswords, big hammers and shields with power generators. There are orcs, goblins and snotlings in space. Daemons and other chaos stuff directly ported over from the fantasy setting. Even the real 'high-tech' army consists of elves in space, with living ships and constructs made out of bone. Planets have all sorts of random fantasy creatures living on them, the most advanced technology coming from orangutangs who assemble it from whatever's at hand. Imperial society consists of a mismatch of planets ranging from the stone age to places with ancient, forgotten tech and lots of headtubes. Nobles run around with huge wigs, canes and bionic eyes. The inquisition is burning witches and hunting evil cults.

And then there's Tau. Who don't fit in the general 40k aesthetic at all, being all science fiction, not space fantasy. Unlike Tau, I dislike both Necrons and spike Eldar, but at least they fit in better. The latter will hopefully be awesome though, after getting a proper treatment by Jes Goodwin instead of being a bunch of eldar with some dark elf bitz slapped on.

Arbiter7
21-02-2010, 10:17
Dislike for T'au can be frequently be traced back to the assumption that this is the age of the Imperium of Man, and everything should be Man-Centered.

Well, I've got some technical, untreatable, malfunctions on the golden throne that hint that's about to change... if it ever was the case. Let me see how the Imperium navigates the Galaxy without the Light of the Emperor...

The future bodes ever grimmer. Let the youngsters have a go at the Galaxy.

morwa
21-02-2010, 11:11
I can't quote, but someone said it before on warseer. Tau fit warhammer quite well, as they have darkness like every other army. It's hidden, but it is. Look at etherals. They control everything with some pheromone stuff. That's why Farsight broke off Tau, becouse he lost etheral who controlled him.
As to models, I dislike them. They could be redone.

eggmarine
21-02-2010, 11:51
I think Tau are unpopular because they put down Humanity- they have innovation and new shiny tech while apparently the Humans haven't invented so much as a plasma tin opener in 10000 years (having lost all capacity for creativity and being tied to the past).

On a deep level the Tau are insulting, maybe not because of their fluff, but the way their fluff contrasts with the Imperial fluff making Humans look like a bunch of degenerates.

When they were released I liked the look of the minis but the background put me off, the Tau race is too shiny and perfect. I hope a Hive Fleet lands on them soon, condemning them to the fate of the Squats.

Mannimarco
21-02-2010, 12:23
^ *sigh* the tau arnt communist

I may be mistaken but i believe that has come up in the past, probably nobody noticed that though as it is a very rare topic that hardly ever comes up ;)

Ivellis
21-02-2010, 12:26
Funny world we live in when most people don't even know what communism is. If it's foreign, brand it with the c-word.

Oguleth
21-02-2010, 12:27
I don't mind the looks or the background, I just hate them just like I hate IG in the sense that games rarely get interesting with them on the other side of the field. It's always very either/or; they crumble in cc - let them shoot you a lot and you crumble. I suspect it's much more fun with mirror matches or games against armies that play the same way, however.

Kadaan
21-02-2010, 12:35
I think alot of the dislike towards Tau stems from two sources.

One is the perceived weeaboo nature of the Tau, with their giant mecha, hopeful fluff, and smooth lines. Alot of 40k players are vocal in that the Tau don't fit into the grimdark grimness of the 41st millennium. I disagree, but that's their opinion to have. This isn't helped by some white knights claiming the Tau are the only good guys in 40k.

The other lies in playstyle. The Tau army used to feature alot of ways to simply deny your enemy any shots. Jump-Shoot-Jump hid Crisis suits, Long range AT and infantry fire meant Tau could hit from further back than most weapons, Steath Fields flat out denied shots. The army was built around not letting opponents shoot back at anything, and could be very frustrating to play against in 4th ed. 5th ed has mitigated alot of the Tau's target denial strategies - JSJ only works around solid cover rather than almost any cover and can't be done out of woods anymore. Longer ranges have been blunted by faster assaults due to the run rule. Near universal cover has also hurt Tau lists, letting more assaulters reach Tau lines. The list is weaker, but the stigma still remains.

What he said!

Putty
21-02-2010, 12:36
Tau armies are very annoying to play against because:

1) Crisis Suit Spam means you need to kill 20 Drones before you get to kill any Suits.

2) All they do is shoot at you from 1 table length away.

3) 1/2 their shooting phase is taken up by Marker Lights instead of just shooting at you.

4) They get another movement phase after shooting... which is pure cheese (although I don't believe in cheese)

Max Jet
21-02-2010, 12:51
Tau armies are very annoying to play against because:

1) Crisis Suit Spam means you need to kill 20 Drones before you get to kill any Suits.

2) All they do is shoot at you from 1 table length away.

3) 1/2 their shooting phase is taken up by Marker Lights instead of just shooting at you.

4) They get another movement phase after shooting... which is pure cheese (although I don't believe in cheese)

Stop making things up! Otherwise GW might even listen to you, and then the Tau get the same treatment as Chaos Marines or Tyranids.

Gosh Let's spam all threads with "Imperials are cheese!"

johnwayne
21-02-2010, 14:02
Ive disliked them because they have very obvious plot armour.

I dont mind plot armour, it's required that something will happen to protect a main character.

But when the Tau, an incredibly small and weak civilisation, get attacked or attack something major, and they always pull something from their ****.

My favorite (alright, most hated) is from the cities of death book.

Basically, you look at the cover and you see Tau in Close Combat. So you think "Well...the tau are screwed. Even against Guard, Tau will suck."

Well you read the story and you watch as that when the Tau ran from that engagement (funnily enough they arent shot down or ran down by the lighter and faster imperial Guard) The Imperial Guard suddenly get possessed by the spirit of a terrier and instead of staying in their nice and cozy fortifications they spent an age building, they decide to charge out and try to nip the Tau's ankles.

Here the Tau show their ingenuiety in that they seem to be able to predict the movements and thinking of an alien race with an entirely different biology, outlook, psychology and brain. Thus they do the "Jump on the Guard while some of us run away" trick, which is a good tactic. But it should only work if the Guard general was a 4 year old.

Then we get stuff like The Taros campaign book, where it goes into huge detail about how the Guard have these huge logistics problems and cant take the heat and such like that.

Problem is that the Tau Harrass the Guard the whole way, never having any of the same logistical problems.

Presumably the Tau are dropped in by Orca or something.

But then why the hell dont the Guard notice it on their long range Auspex?

The only thing i can think of is that the time that the orcas dropped coincided exactly with the operations Lho Stick and Recaff breaks.

To really sum up, The Tau annoy me not because anything that the Tau do, but because they do things which should fail and instead succeed because their plot armour is 20 Inches thick and made of the same stuff R2-D2 and C3-PO use. They never really get any setbacks, their warpjump limitation is mitigated with a half arsed explanation of 'Warp planing" which doesnt make any real sense considering they have no psykers. Finally any fights they get into seem to be won because of "ingenious tactics" like running and then shooting at the same time.

Sigh, that made made more angry than i thought.

And that doesn't make you angry at the guy who wrote that, but instead you get mad at the characters? :)
Damn, I knew some of the 40k fluff was bad and ripped off, but not by that much

Sygerrik
21-02-2010, 14:26
The Tau are a bunch of weeaboo. They're based on anime, which is only marginally more interesting than watching mold form on the side of a fish tank. This, to me, makes them boring.

I do like Tau appearances in the fluff, mostly because they almost always get beaten in amusing ways. Like in the Tyranid codex, where they throw a parade for the Necrons that saved them from a Hive Fleet... only to be harvested by said Necrons. Or the Ork codex, where they get outsmarted by a Warboss and trapped, and then the Orks turn all of their high-powered guns into Orky snazzgunz and deffgunz and outshoot them on their own terms.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 14:40
They're more based on modern warfare and chinese foot infantry, actually.
It's just the crisis suit that's stolen straight from anime.

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
21-02-2010, 14:43
I'm gonna get shot down for saying this, but it's because the tau are commies. i HATE communism

Not that again...:mad:
You may want to (re-)read that:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4150807#post4150807

But the fact remains that Tau are also despised because they got the (undue) reputation of being communists.

DeadlySquirrel
21-02-2010, 14:47
... i was being sarcastic =p

sorry, doesnt really come across via text does it?

johnwayne
21-02-2010, 14:47
The entire origin of the Imperium and the space marines are so straight stolen from Dune that you could call them the God-Emperor and his Spice Marines. 40k could just as well be the continuation of that fictional history line. Even the gothic in space of 40k style looks 'remarkedly similar' to what Lynch's Dune looks like (1984 to 40k's 1987). I don't think stolen ideas are going to help justify the Tau-hate, lol.

But I agree that they are somewhat out of place, a pure sci-fi race in a space fantasy setting. And yes, I dislike tau and imperial guard too, because they just aren't fun in combat.

d6juggernaut
21-02-2010, 14:48
I love how a lot of people here accuse the Tau for been anime inspired, thus they suck. Yeah, because everything about anime is just "Oohh, emo teenagers with crazy hair wielding giant sword and giant gun trying to save the world, baaaad~~". That kinda sounds like quite a few Space Marine chapters doesn't it? Please watch some animes before jumping into conclusions, we're not living in the 40K world, you don't need to go all grimdark at everything in existence.

Granted, I'm no expert in Tau fluff, but I find it even weirder that people don't like them because they ummm...hide in cover? Use mutual support? Avoid casualties? Their standard armor is not the size of a fridge, they're not born a 8 feet tall green monster, they don't outnumber every army in the galaxy combined. So why wouldn't they use cover and shoot their opponent? Do people really want every xeno race to be a bunch of fanatics wearing as many skulls, heads, seals, chains, or whatever as they possibly could and just run out up with their sword/axe/stick?

johnwayne
21-02-2010, 15:02
Granted, I'm no expert in Tau fluff, but I find it even weirder that people don't like them because they ummm...hide in cover? Use mutual support? Avoid casualties? Their standard armor is not the size of a fridge, they're not born a 8 feet tall green monster, they don't outnumber every army in the galaxy combined. So why wouldn't they use cover and shoot their opponent? Do people really want every xeno race to be a bunch of fanatics wearing as many skulls, heads, seals, chains, or whatever as they possibly could and just run out up with their sword/axe/stick?

going further on the 40k fluff in general...
as you describe the 40k races, with the fanaticism, skulls, axes and running towards eachother to bash eachother skulls in (which seems to be the working paradigm in every war), you would expect the galaxy to be devoid of any intelligent life by now. If everybody seems so eager to hate and kill, and with the deathrates they have in every single military confrontation, it's a wonder they even have soldiers left.

Maybe it's because according to the excellent writers that make up this stuff, only one single war happens at a time. Makes perfect sense. In a universe where killing is the only spoken language. One of the many incosistentcies in 40k's fluff.

Don't get too deep into it. It's just a bunch of cool sounding sentences (with the same 25-30 adjectives over and over again) to justify a wargame with ridiculous amounts of casualties. I cringe when I see people hail the "deep background" of the armies, "believable and intelligent" tactics and "deep psychology" of the characters. It's not. Maybe if you live in a basement. But the story is never original and not deep at all. At best, it's a list of numbers, dates, cool names for characters and vehicles that give you a context to play your games in. Don't take it for something it isn't.

Btw, that scene with the drive-by on a stolen baneblade that is on fire, that is totally awesome. I would pay for that :)

Zombie Savant
21-02-2010, 15:12
People oft complain about the Tau fluff, in that it's too contrary to the nature of 40k. They're too bright, young, and still alive somehow for people to bear, they want such a small enclave to be crushed violently. This seems, to me at least, to ignore the fact that Tau really aren't so friendly. You join, or you are annexed. Just because they don't necessarily slaughter a planet of humans after capturing it makes sense -- do you want to murder the billion or so people that for the first time have a modicum of a chance for advancement, a standard of living, and real contribution? As long as you can brain-wash away their conditioning, you've just got yourself a new workforce.

People don't like Tau, fluff-speaking, because they are semi-"reasonable," as opposed to the Imperial Factions. The Eldar are so haughty and fatalistic that they have avoided this fate.

The other thing I don't get is that, really, all the in-universe factions feel the same way about the Tau. A bunch of upstart younglings with no real conception of the galaxy at large. If it was something that was just contained to the Tau Fluff, I can understand, but all the other background pieces pick at them too. They're not awesome no matter what in isolation.

Then, there are the obvious issues of aesthetic and gaming style (neither of which I find bothersome). I like all Tau models barring the suits, and the krootox perhaps.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is this. Pieces of fluff in, say, the vanilla codex, where it STATES as FACT that other 'codex' chapters, who are directly descended from their own primarchs, want nothing more but to emulate and honor the tradition of Row-Boat Gullly-Man of the Ultramarines, are the ones to be mad at. This is nothing but rampant, flagrant, ****** you to the fanbase and the fluff.

The Tau are much less grievous offenders. As far as gameplay is concerned, too, they have a different way of playing than say, all of the space marine divergent lists. Wow, another army that gets close and assaults. Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Black Templars. Out of these *maybe* the Black Templars and the Dark Angels offer something different enough to warrant its own armylist.

Blugughh, I'm getting OT, but I'd rather see 3 new Tau Codexes before a new marine one.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 15:17
Most of the softy-softy, 'resistance is futile. Join the collective'-stuff was condensed in about four pages of their 3rd edition book.
The 4th is more about the problems they've encountered, now that they've managed to run into all other factions a few times.

This has - good heavens - led to them developing a more fluid command structure, better weapons, tactics to combat many of the factions, and actually advanced their technology.

And then there's Shadowsun, who cannot be beaten ever.

wazatdingder
21-02-2010, 15:51
Me boyz luv Towelsies. Specially when people who gots dem decide dey don'ts wan em no more. An' we getz lotza bits to loot fer cheap. Dem battle suits make good Kans.

Frozen Yakman
21-02-2010, 16:58
People hate because the Tau realized the same thing cave men realized the first time he chucked a javelin at a wild boar; range is the king of combat. For some reason, most of the other armies seem to have forgotten this axiom. Which makes them pretty dumb.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 17:40
Not all of them.
Farsight wants you to drive him closer, so he can hit the enemy with his sword - but only if this is an effective tactic.

the1stpip
21-02-2010, 18:06
I hate Tau.

They are the only army that can batter my Dark Eldar, and I never seem to be able to do anything.

Other than that, I have no issue with them, and have even considered playing with them from time to time.

druchii lord narakh
21-02-2010, 18:21
i like the tau. there a good armie. the only reason i think people hate them is that they have bad combat(although Farsight is amazing in combat) and that they have way better shooting then most armies. also is the crisis suit jumping and the tanks that have a almost eldar invincibility to them. also is the fact that i mostly see them lose is why i think people hate them. its not that the armie sucks its that all i really see is lots of crisis suits and kroot, little fire warriors and almost no parianas, but alot of tanks. the best tau armie i ever seen fighting (and winning ) was one with few crisis suits, lots of warriors, a single broadside squad with one hammer head, and paranas. They player also used more of the other types of special given from the marker light other then the +1BS. he annialated the chaos armie in three turns.

borithan
21-02-2010, 18:35
I just don't like the models. I like kroot, but the rest of the models are completely unappealing to me.Comeplete opposuite to me. I like the Tau stuff, but all the other alien nonsense is rubbish.


They're also hated for another, very important reason: crowbar'd into the background.That was going to happen to any new race. Can't single out the Tau specifically for that.


Thus they do the "Jump on the Guard while some of us run away" trick, which is a good tactic. But it should only work if the Guard general was a 4 year old.Many generals have been fooled by a feigned retreat.


Then we get stuff like The Taros campaign book, where it goes into huge detail about how the Guard have these huge logistics problems and cant take the heat and such like that.Ok, the Taros campaign book was over the top in the favour of the Tau (though it makes some kind of sense as it is basically the "Tau" Forgeworld book). That wasn't the only problem with it though (What was it... 4 regiments or something to retake a whole planet?).


their warpjump limitation is mitigated with a half arsed explanation of 'Warp planing" which doesnt make any real sense considering they have no psykers.The idea of warp travel without psykers has always existed. The Navigators of the Imperium are not required for Warp Travel, they just make it 1) more reliable and 2) gives them a capability to make much longer warp trips than any other race. The Imperium needs the Navigators because their empire is so large, not because they are vital for warp travel.



They're communistic,No.



imperialistic,Yes.



colonial oppressors,Unclear, but almost certainly in some cases. However, many people criticise the Tau for not being nasty enough... which is just weird.



armed with plasmaguns that aren't really plasmaguns,Why do plasma guns need to explode?


Tau just don't fit the very western aesthetics of 40k. And an army that only shoots (or worse: jump-shoot-jump) is boring. Shooting armies = non-western aesthetic? Doesn't make sense to me. Most of the anime stuff I have seen seems to have an obsession with oversized swords, while most Western Sci-fi I have seen seems a lot more focussed on guns (Stargate, Star Trek, and Battlestar Galactica for example). When it isn't it is often very much inspired by Japanese cinema(Star Wars). Anyway, while visually, and to a certain extent philisophically, I can see the "Eastern" influence, focussing on overwhelming mobile firepower seems to very much fit with current Western military goals.

Sorry... just re-reading what you have written I realised there wasn't necessarily any connection between those two sentences.


And is collectivist?Well... I would say the Imperium is rather collectivist as well. At the very least it doesn't really favour the individual.

Anyway, I would rather 40k would emphasise shooting a lot more than it does.

carl
21-02-2010, 19:16
My favorite (alright, most hated) is from the cities of death book.

Basically, you look at the cover and you see Tau in Close Combat. So you think "Well...the tau are screwed. Even against Guard, Tau will suck."

Well you read the story and you watch as that when the Tau ran from that engagement (funnily enough they arent shot down or ran down by the lighter and faster imperial Guard) The Imperial Guard suddenly get possessed by the spirit of a terrier and instead of staying in their nice and cozy fortifications they spent an age building, they decide to charge out and try to nip the Tau's ankles.

Here the Tau show their ingenuiety in that they seem to be able to predict the movements and thinking of an alien race with an entirely different biology, outlook, psychology and brain. Thus they do the "Jump on the Guard while some of us run away" trick, which is a good tactic. But it should only work if the Guard general was a 4 year old.

Then we get stuff like The Taros campaign book, where it goes into huge detail about how the Guard have these huge logistics problems and cant take the heat and such like that.

Problem is that the Tau Harrass the Guard the whole way, never having any of the same logistical problems.

Presumably the Tau are dropped in by Orca or something.

But then why the hell dont the Guard notice it on their long range Auspex?

The only thing i can think of is that the time that the orcas dropped coincided exactly with the operations Lho Stick and Recaff breaks.

To really sum up, The Tau annoy me not because anything that the Tau do, but because they do things which should fail and instead succeed because their plot armour is 20 Inches thick and made of the same stuff R2-D2 and C3-PO use. They never really get any setbacks, their warpjump limitation is mitigated with a half arsed explanation of 'Warp planing" which doesnt make any real sense considering they have no psykers. Finally any fights they get into seem to be won because of "ingenious tactics" like running and then shooting at the same time.

Sigh, that made made more angry than i thought.

LOL:).

I understand your frustration.

The problem is:

A) newer fluff makes the IG and other non-marine forces a lot more competent in many area's.

B) The Tau have allways been emphesised as this super mobile force able to match space marines in mobility and majorly outnumber them. That alone means they really should be able to run rings round IG.


The reall issue is ultimetly long and short: The IoM and everyone else except maybe eldar make use of a number of tactics that for various reasons just ren't sensible. The Tau are a sane group in a world of nutters and as a consuquence as soon as any one with a very basic knowlage of working tactics gets hold of them they turn uber godly becuase frankly thats what they would actually be.

I should also point out that given the wide veriaty of uses to which the manta is put and the sheer numbers of ships and whatnot that carry tem the Tau can happilly feild the equivelent of several dozen full titan legions in a battle and not even consider it a major drain on their rescources. The same ammount is a commitment for the IoM of immense rescource, (qf the number of titan s and other super heavies involved in the 3rd armegeddon war). This alonje gives them a degeree of very hard to defeat plot armour because they can defat any force upto and including that deployed in the defences agai8nst the Black Crusades/Hive fleets with ease, and it's a lot more mobile than the equivelent force of any other army, (even eldar titans can't go ballistic to cross continents).

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 19:23
The manta is outright cheating.
For starters, they can build more. Then there's the fact that it flies, has really powerful guns, and it also doubles as a badass transport, and all this without having four weeks' worth of 'awakening rituals!?'

Insane.
Everyone else is either beaten by tau on a tactical level, or by their technology.

Stupid imperium of man, with their 50 foot walking battle mechasuit- oh, hey, look what I did there.

carl
21-02-2010, 20:13
LOL. I like the last bit.

And yes the manta is a cheat. Thats the point. The IOM instead of focusing on making more mass producable peices of gear in all categories is so cuaght up on STC and tech religion that it just can't outproduce the Tau on many itmes, and many it can it does so through it's vastly greater size.

Some armies can outproduce the Tau, (Orks and ELdar really, though Necrons too long term i bet), but eithier don't have the unity, or lack the numbers, (or both), to take advantage of that. Chaos are reliant on deamon engines and corruppted/captured IOM stuff, and well that covers nearly every army i think.

Also to be 100% honest large numbers of ground bound Manta's is A) asking for exterminus or equivelent. B) really hurting their allready weak, (though growing) space firepower. Thats what it was built for after all. Space combat, it's ground role is strictly an ad hoc modification and it shows.

ThePrecious
21-02-2010, 20:24
I love the addition of new alien races to the "playable" 40k universe, more spehss mahreens chapters does not equal more fun. Though i am not a big fan of the look of some of their models they add variety which is good in my opinion. Their supposed tactical genius and ability to completely win always no matter what the situation is because of their afforementioned tactical genius is quite annoying but no army has perfect fluff.

Why I hate this army is because of their gameplay.

They are extremely one dimensional with their shooting and their ridiculous amounts of shooting wargear. They not only dominate their shooting phase but also dominate YOURS. the 4+ save outside of 12 inches on SKIMMERs which are usually fast skimmers is quite annoying, as are their many devices which increase their BS and do not require LOS. If they pushed the alien confederation theme with 2-3 more alien races (that are worth taking *cough vespid*) in the army they would be much more fun to play against and three dimensional.

carl
21-02-2010, 20:29
The point is theyre SUPPOSED to be 2 dimenshinol in the sense of dominating the shooting phase. Thats like saying Khorne beserkers are bad because they only do CC.

dude37
21-02-2010, 20:32
since my immediate friend circle only has 2 other people the tau player usually has to be on the team of one of us, both melee armies, effectively making the team with tau win 90% of the time. i am proud to admit i was the first to break the record.:p

This isn't helped by some white knights claiming the Tau are the only good guys in 40k.

tau are not the good guys. "join us or die" is the mentality used by all 40k races including tau, not really a good guy thing to do. but they do have the best conditions for their people by our standards.

MasterDecoy
21-02-2010, 20:34
I love the addition of new alien races to the "playable" 40k universe, more spehss mahreens chapters does not equal more fun. Though i am not a big fan of the look of some of their models they add variety which is good in my opinion. Their supposed tactical genius and ability to completely win always no matter what the situation is because of their afforementioned tactical genius is quite annoying but no army has perfect fluff.

Why I hate this army is because of their gameplay.

They are extremely one dimensional with their shooting and their ridiculous amounts of shooting wargear. They not only dominate their shooting phase but also dominate YOURS. the 4+ save outside of 12 inches on SKIMMERs which are usually fast skimmers is quite annoying, as are their many devices which increase their BS and do not require LOS. If they pushed the alien confederation theme with 2-3 more alien races (that are worth taking *cough vespid*) in the army they would be much more fun to play against and three dimensional.

tau only have 1 fast vehicle, the piranah. If your refuring to the multi tracker, it doesnt make them fast either.

The amount of times Ive had to explain to people the difference between "as if" and "Is" really makes me want to bash my head against the desk repeatedly.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 20:36
"Their supposed tactical genius and ability to completely win always no matter what the situation is because of their afforementioned tactical genius is quite annoying but no army has perfect fluff."

They use transports, retreat before numerically superior enemies, bribe their enemy's enemy to fight on their side, advance their technology, mount actual weapons on their power armored infantry, have air-support, don't worship machines as if they were gods, and bring superior firepower to bear at all times.

Of course, it also helps that their enemies just want them to stay still, so they can hit them with their huge chainsaw swords.

juicifer
21-02-2010, 20:45
Tau need more rapist cowboy knife fighters, then they would actually fit the theme of 40k. Also their veritechs crisis suits need to transform into awesome jets so they can whooosh whilst pewpewing.

carl
21-02-2010, 20:49
LOL.

Though to be fair nids, Eldar, DE, and to a lesser degree Orks can justify their CC focus. 2 have the numbers, (and nids use it more to exhuast the enemies ammunition as much as for a viable tactic), and Eldar can overcome the two big disadvantages with CC in the real world: Difficulty of getting to the target and Difficulty of carrying the big killy sword and much else. Since their speed and holo-feilds make it genuinly easy to do.

R Man
21-02-2010, 21:00
Well, the Tau do make other factions look bad. Let me explain.

The Tau tech is supposedly advancing awesomely, while human tech languishes. Right? In some cases this is true, but not always. Power Armour is always getting modified, and there are thousands of variants of every weapon out there and dozens of Vehicles which have been made. As for STC, well the Imperium needs some way to enforce a measure of Standardization, without it reinforcing planets becomes more difficult. And lets face it, the Ad Mec needs to speak in religious terms. If you were explaining how a Plasma gun works to a common soldier who comes from a distant backwater, do you think explaining that 'the transmatter activator coils the manetic field etc.' is a wise choice when the two of you can barely understand each other? Or would you just say its magic?

Then there is tactics. While other races are charging forward trying to brain each other, the Tau are innovating, developing and using modern military tactics, and that's why they win! But hang on, the Cadians are based on the modern military using such modern tactics? And Space Marines, once you get past their traditional portrayal, they do use quite advanced tactics.

I don't think its a case of people not liking the Tau's 'hat'. Few people would hate them if they had their set of characteristics and fought on their terms and won that way. However it seems as though, whenever the Tau is involved, whatever tactics/traits/characteristics of other armies that they have suddenly seem to count for nothing.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 21:04
The last upgrade to power armor was mark 8, and that was a thousand years ago - in-game.
Marines don't trust it yet, since it's so 'new,' and don't want to replace their trusted mark 7 just yet, plus, it's supposedly really, really hard to make.

"there are thousands of variants of every weapon out there and dozens of Vehicles which have been made." You've not read the background all that much, have you?

carl
21-02-2010, 21:10
And lets face it, the Ad Mec needs to speak in religious terms. If you were explaining how a Plasma gun works to a common soldier who comes from a distant backwater, do you think explaining that 'the transmatter activator coils the manetic field etc.' is a wise choice when the two of you can barely understand each other? Or would you just say its magic?


ou do realise that Tech presist use religious terms because thats what THEY belive. It isn't kiddy mans explanations to barbarians, it's how they actually see the world.

Occulto
21-02-2010, 21:11
The other lies in playstyle. The Tau army used to feature alot of ways to simply deny your enemy any shots. Jump-Shoot-Jump hid Crisis suits, Long range AT and infantry fire meant Tau could hit from further back than most weapons, Steath Fields flat out denied shots. The army was built around not letting opponents shoot back at anything, and could be very frustrating to play against in 4th ed. 5th ed has mitigated alot of the Tau's target denial strategies - JSJ only works around solid cover rather than almost any cover and can't be done out of woods anymore. Longer ranges have been blunted by faster assaults due to the run rule. Near universal cover has also hurt Tau lists, letting more assaulters reach Tau lines.

This. I don't particularly care about whether they fit in the background - my dislike of them comes from what happened on the table.

Friend of mine started playing them when they came out and it became very apparent that the Tau knocked Eldar off their perch as the most annoying army to face.

Every time a Tau opponent said: "But I've got this rule which lets me do..." the rage built even further.


The list is weaker, but the stigma still remains.

There's a lot of grudges to work through before I'm willing to lose my loathing of Tau. :p

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 21:18
I just hate Shadowsun, and about half the units available.

ImRightBehindYou
21-02-2010, 21:29
Because their Tau and abuse spearhead deployment. No just kidding but seriously nobody likes Tau.

R Man
21-02-2010, 21:30
The last upgrade to power armor was mark 8, and that was a thousand years ago - in-game.
Marines don't trust it yet, since it's so 'new,' and don't want to replace their trusted mark 7 just yet, plus, it's supposedly really, really hard to make.


I never said it happened often, just that it happened. They do advance, slowly, but they do it. And with an Empire that large did you really think it would be quick?



"there are thousands of variants of every weapon out there and dozens of Vehicles which have been made." You've not read the background all that much, have you?

Pretty much every description of Imperial Weapons mentions a number of varieties and variations. For a start, every type of guardsmen had a different lasgun. The 4th edition rulebook mentions several different patterns and even states that (for Lasguns) 'many variants on the basic design exist' of course, no figures are given.


ou do realise that Tech presist use religious terms because thats what THEY belive. It isn't kiddy mans explanations to barbarians, it's how they actually see the world.

How do you know they accept the religion as actual religion? Perhaps they just use religion as a metaphor. A lot of people think priest in the past were conmen, but in the ancient world priests were often keepers of knowledge and many were well educated and intelligent. They were an early form of scientist, often mixing study with faith (Mayan Priests could predict eclipses). For example, few people know this, but the Pope originally backed Galileo and his idea, and turned on him only because Galileo was rude to him.

carl
21-02-2010, 21:34
I know it because there's fluff articles describing it. Pm me if you want more info as i doubt i can quote that much stuff and get away with it. the ][ system had some rules for ad mech explorator temas put out and there's a lot of tuff on their religion in there.

TBH the term religion my be slightly misleading, it's more a set of rock hard rules by which they make all decishion, but they are worded religiousdly and interpreted in a similar manner. Sort of a very riligiously obeyed techpreist 10 commandments:p.

Kurgash
21-02-2010, 21:40
Hate them for the jump shoot jump, hate them for the 'pop all my heavy armor waaaaaaay over here' LOVE them when I finally catch the blighters between two khorne squads and the look on my opponent's face when he realized I Creeded him.

Vexbane
21-02-2010, 21:40
I do not mind the Tau. My friend plays them. They do need an overhaul in the fluff and codex. They need better/more mercenaries types and should have the best snipers in the game imo since that is their main forte. My 3 Cents.

johnwayne
21-02-2010, 21:52
tau are not the good guys. "join us or die" is the mentality used by all 40k races including tau, not really a good guy thing to do. but they do have the best conditions for their people by our standards.

and while they offer technological salvation to the races that join them, the imperium offers religious salvation to those that join them. So, in a way, they're both as good.
Actually salvation of the soul is better, so IOM is more good than Tau.

Bodysnatcher
21-02-2010, 21:54
Tau took a serious power-drop in 5th ed. So probably plenty of people hate them because they hear me moaning about it all the time :p

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 22:02
Salvation of the soul doesn't come from worshipping machines or an undead guy who dropped dead 10,000 years ago.

AlmightyNocturnus
21-02-2010, 22:05
Yeah, can`t stand the Tau. If you look back at the second post in this thread, it is summed up perfectly (Tau are totally techno wussies in a universe of metal badasses). They may be on the weak side now, but those of us who have been playing long enough to remember when they came out and the JSJ days when you couldn`t get close to them. They were essentially the Thorek-gunline of 40K (to use a WFB analogy). Since I suffered a lot of early losses to this version of the Tau, I relish every curb-stomping I give them now. After all, it`s only a matter of time before they are back with a new book, new rules, and deadlier shooting (and jumping).

Almighty Nocturnus

Aulbath
21-02-2010, 22:13
Hmm... Tau, Necron and Dark Eldar are the latest additions to 40K, and I dislike them all - been around since 2nd ED and I liked those somewhat more classical races that had some kind of fantasy equivalent but not being crap like Khemri or Dark Elves.
Necron luring you in with the Terminator-idea just to turn out to be that crazy Stargate-********. Dark Eldar are just laughable... in a way, they are like Cradle of Filth turned miniatures. Also, they are the most ugly designs ever, easiley being worse than the latest nekkid beastmen and Pumbagor!

And then there are the Tau... I don't care for their background (actually, background-wise I only like the classic 2nd ED factions because most of that feels like it's part of something greater rather than just tacked on as time progressed and new money had to be made) - and the idea of having them just pop up and being "super advanced" is like... meh!

Next up, their looks. Now let me start this with saying I really, really like some Tau Models. I am a big fan of japanese animation (however, more the late 80ies and 90ies stuff, AKIRA, Genocyber, Cyber City OEDO and all which is totally different from most of the crap you get to see today) and I really do like Mecha-Soap Operas (Gundam Zeta ftw!). So, the Tau Robotsuits and the Firewarriors are really cool models. However, the Tanks are not - I get a VERY bad Star Wars Eps. 1-3 vibe from them - not good, not at all! The Kroot are absolutely horrible... the whole design concept behind these is completely beyond me. Instead of making the Tau those crazy techno-samurai with giant robots that would have been super-awesome we get this mixed bag of random ideas that just doesn't seem coherent in the slightest. Why are the tanks so roundish? Why are the suits so very boxy with straight lines rather than curves? What's the deal with all those crazy aliens that share none of the visual treats of the "main force" and in case of the Kroot would be more fitting in the world of ALKEMY by Kraken?

Their visual design is a mess, which is very sad - because, as mentioned there was so much potential to make them both appealing to J-freaks as well as the grimdark and heavy metal faction. Looking at Infinity that's a very good example of mixing japanese and western influences and make it stunningly beautiful. GW's take on that is rubbish.

And finally... Fire Warrior from THQ. When you die in the first level of the game fighting against Guardsmen in a trench, you know you are on the wrong team. When Space Marines turn out to be giants that seem to be invulnerable to anything you throw at them you know you are on the wrong team. When the story picks up and gets better once it has NOTHING to do with you and your alien empire you know something went way wrong.

Actually, if GW was to remove factions from 40K it should look like this: 1st Dark Eldar (boy, I REALLY hate those) 2nd Necron (just because the standard infantry is cool doesn't stop the whole Khemri / Stargate mash-up in deep space from sucking) and 3rd the Tau. Still think the concept could work within 40K as it's diverse enough and could make for some very slick designs resulting in great miniatures... but they way things are now? No, thank you... I'd rather have they released another new Space Marine chapter and ditched those because the basic design foundation is good on that stuff, they can't possible screw it up (okay... Salamanders... :/ ).

johnwayne
21-02-2010, 22:42
Salvation of the soul doesn't come from worshipping machines or an undead guy who dropped dead 10,000 years ago.

There's so much stuff in the WH40k-usniverse that doesn't make sense, and this is the one you want to argue about?

;)

Hoodwink
21-02-2010, 22:44
I find a lot of the younger crowd (low teens and below) are drawn to tau because of their anime charicteristics and robots. This tends to be fairly bad for the rep since many are pretty immature.

Of course... nothing screams that more than a middle-aged adult screaming over some painted men on a game because he didn't get a dice roll he wanted... :rolleyes:

dtjunkie19
21-02-2010, 22:48
I find a lot of the younger crowd (low teens and below) are drawn to tau because of their anime charicteristics and robots. This tends to be fairly bad for the rep since many are pretty immature.

Of course... nothing screams that more than a middle-aged adult screaming over some painted men on a game because he didn't get a dice roll he wanted... :rolleyes:

If so...maybe for about 5 minutes. I've never seen a younger kid stick with tau for more than a week. Its not at all an easy playstyle to pick up

Penitent Engine
21-02-2010, 22:50
I used to dislike the Tau quite a bit, mainly because of my friend's quite reasonable 'shoot-the-b********s" tactics against my CSMs in 4th. But now, I quite like them. Their flexibility, openness to new ideas and induction of other races makes a refreshing break from the rest of the genocidal/xenocidal/omnicidal races in 40K. And while it's their greatest hope, it's also bound to be their downfall. Because as sure as eggs hatch, they're going to take over a world with some Chaos cults on it. And then we'll see how the mecha-men from the east fare when their planet comes under Daemonic invasion :D

azimaith
21-02-2010, 22:54
I do not mind the Tau. My friend plays them. They do need an overhaul in the fluff and codex. They need better/more mercenaries types and should have the best snipers in the game imo since that is their main forte. My 3 Cents.

Tau's forte is not sniping. By the background its not even long ranged shooting.

Promethius
21-02-2010, 22:57
My argument against them is based almost entirely on plot armour. The Taros campaign book was a fan-boi's wet dream. Shadowsun doesn't just take the biscuit, she takes the whole tin. Calgar punching out an avatar is nothing compared to her exploits.

kaimarion
21-02-2010, 23:09
My argument against them is based almost entirely on plot armour. The Taros campaign book was a fan-boi's wet dream. Shadowsun doesn't just take the biscuit, she takes the whole tin. Calgar punching out an avatar is nothing compared to her exploits.

Could you please explain that to us poor souls who do not have that book.

Baracus
21-02-2010, 23:19
Tau fit 40k good because they play modern warfare unlike most armys who

Fly millions of lightyears in mile long spaceships to fight with swords.

The tau on the other hand slowly advance and use plasma as a basic gun. They also understand what the are making unlike the eginseers who just copy blue prints and hope for the best.

FashaTheDog
22-02-2010, 00:18
I like my Tau; they're not my most competative and I have 24 Fire Warriors in the painting queue I'm not looking forward to, but the army has a very strong anime flavor to it. And before the chorus of "Tau are not anime" arises, yes mine are very anime, well Gundam anyway. When I finish the roll in my camera and develop it, I'll scan my Zaku Crisis Suit and Exia Farsight. Even one of my Hammerheads has a Gundam X Satellite Cannon, microwave collectors included. I need to go back and add it across the army, but I decided to make my Sept emblem the Zeon flag. Tempted to make an ejected pilot that bears a striking resemblence to the Red Comet.

bossfearless
22-02-2010, 00:52
Firstly, people see battlesuits and think "omg animu so sissygirl not MANLY like SPAEC MAREENS!" Because clearly dudes wearing magic armor with superhuge guns that constantly want to charge into melee have nothing to do with anime. Oh, and don't forget the Warrior's Ethos.

Secondly, they don't have enough skulls and torture and rape to fit in with the grim darkness of the darkness of the grim future's dark grimness. They ever did anything nice once! They don't fit with the fluff AT ALL, because the Imperium is all murder and skulls, all the time!

Thirdly, they have plot armor that protects them from dying. Unlike, say, the Marine chapters, most of which have been slaughtered down to 3-4 dudes at least seventeen times over the past one hundred years.

And lastly, their army is super-weak if you build it poorly and spam their crappy troop choices in transports with no fire points, ignoring the preponderance of S10, S7, and S6 guns with low AP and long range available on high-mobility units. Because if your army isn't all troops, all the time, you're basically a cheater.

This iis such epic truth right here. But wait! You forgot to mention that the Tau have an unforgivable lack of giant shoulderpads! The Fire Warriors only have teh one pauldron and it don't got spikes or dead babies or nothing!

Vepr
22-02-2010, 00:56
I like Tau more than Necrons. Necrons have always felt kind of shoehorned in to me. I think if they improved the suits model a bit and added some more mercenaries I could maybe even see myself playing Tau. :D

WinglessVT2
22-02-2010, 01:59
That one pauldron puts Marneus Calgar to shame.

Plague.Monk
22-02-2010, 02:15
I'm kinda shocked how many pages this has warranted lol

big squig
22-02-2010, 02:43
Tau have a lot of fan art though. Especially from the deviant art / anime art fan community.

Plague.Monk
22-02-2010, 03:25
Tau have a lot of fan art though. Especially from the deviant art / anime art fan community.

go figure right?

IcedAnimals
22-02-2010, 03:38
most gripes I see people have with the tau is the plot armor one. very few people associate tau with anime. I do not mind the tau but I hate the xeno. So while I have a tau army I converted all the models to have guardsmen legs and human heads unless helmeted. And almost all of them have helmets. so it was actually really easy conversion work.

WinglessVT2
22-02-2010, 03:42
The plot armor is mostly inherent to Shadowsun, whom I wish GW writes out of the background once they get an update.
They list lost battles in their own codex, some lessons learned, and tend to be the ones with the most pronounced Worf effect in more recent codices.

Lord of Worms
22-02-2010, 03:49
. very few people associate tau with anime.


Are you actually serious? That's like saying Genestealers aren't a ripoff of Alien. Look, if you or anybody else likes anime that's fine, I have no problem with that. But I hate it, and the Tau are an army that is clearly aesthetically inspired by anime (or whatever sub-genre they happen to call it now).

WinglessVT2
22-02-2010, 03:53
I haven't met someone who didn't first associate tau with mechsuit anime, and most pick up the fact that their infantry is chinese foot soldiers in space.

Plague.Monk
22-02-2010, 03:53
Are you actually serious? That's like saying Genestealers aren't a ripoff of Alien. Look, if you or anybody else likes anime that's fine, I have no problem with that. But I hate it, and the Tau are an army that is clearly aesthetically inspired by anime (or whatever sub-genre they happen to call it now).

Even I thought of Neon Genesis wtfever when I saw it

Arbiter7
22-02-2010, 06:07
Or Robotech... or Voltron...

good times.

Plague.Monk
22-02-2010, 06:20
Or Robotech... or Voltron...

good times.

Hey

Voltrons awesome

juicifer
22-02-2010, 07:26
Maybe crisis suits will get the ability to form together into a mighty robot with it's very own theme song in their new codex.

Plague.Monk
22-02-2010, 07:30
Maybe crisis suits will get the ability to form together into a mighty robot with it's very own theme song in their new codex.

only if you get a free soundclip of the transformers noise. . . or somehow, your entire world turns into the cutscene from Power Rangers when forming any giant robot

EmperorEternalXIX
22-02-2010, 07:33
I don't really have a problem with the Tau army itself...but the guys who play them tend to be the least 40k fans I know of. I dislike most Tau-exclusive players I've met on account of their horrendous wailing cries of disdain for the game because one piece of wargear they never took does nothing anymore in 5th edition and thus the Tau can never win another game ever again.

The Tau may not be top tier horse hockey like it once was, but it is still a powerful and capable army and if people weren't so busy trying to continue to win with immobile gunlines sitting on rooftops it might be going a bit better for them.

IcedAnimals
22-02-2010, 07:47
Are you actually serious? That's like saying Genestealers aren't a ripoff of Alien. Look, if you or anybody else likes anime that's fine, I have no problem with that. But I hate it, and the Tau are an army that is clearly aesthetically inspired by anime (or whatever sub-genre they happen to call it now).

Actually I am serious. Every single person I have ever shown tau to who doesn't read these forums and read that the tau are "suppose" to represent anime say they really are not very similar. Honestly there is just as much similarity between anime and sisters. (And most people I know who enjoy both anime and warhammer love themselves some sisters of battle)

I can think of a SINGLE anime that had tau like units. Which is quite impressive considering the millions of titles out there. Coincidence alone should have given them more. (that anime being appleseed).

Nothing about a battle suit is particularly anime. We have had bipedal suits in sci fi for as long as there has been sci fi.

But my original point could be personal experience. I can't speak for the entire world and I have by no means done a large scale study. All I can say is that of the hundred or so people who have seen my models at my house the tau have not once been associated with anime. And the group is quite diverse in their knowledge of both 40k and anime.

My sisters have been referenced as anime models before "an entire army of hot chicks eh? sounds like most anime plots".

I guess I just don't see the connection myself either. Most people say they are "giant robot anime!" which seems odd as the few races who actually field giant robots aren't the tau. But those imperial,chaos and eldar titans would fit right in.

GrimZAG
22-02-2010, 08:01
I dislike Tau because GW came along and invented a brand new army from NOWHERE! and the love and attention that Dark Eldar should have received instead went to them.

e2055261
22-02-2010, 08:22
The good thing about the Tau is that AP 4 actually means something :)

Tau are fine in every sense. They just need a bit of a redo. Their background needs a lot of expanding, for one.

For Pete's sake at least they're not more marines... which are fine but how about a bit of variety.

Don't get the dislike tbh.

big squig
22-02-2010, 08:45
I dislike Tau because GW came along and invented a brand new army from NOWHERE! and the love and attention that Dark Eldar should have received instead went to them.
Yet when necrons were introduced (an army invented from nowhere) no one complained, even though both the inquisition and squats were ignored.

Deadnight
22-02-2010, 10:01
1) Crisis Suit Spam means you need to kill 20 Drones before you get to kill any Suits.

or drop ordnance on them... thats 10 crisis suits right there, plus drones etc is half an army. im sure you can find stuff to blow them to hell...


2) All they do is shoot at you from 1 table length away.
like a lot of armies.


3) 1/2 their shooting phase is taken up by Marker Lights instead of just shooting at you.
so? its one of their signature weapons.


4) They get another movement phase after shooting... which is pure cheese (although I don't believe in cheese)
so do lots of other armies. except with them, its followed with lots of dice rolling as things die in cc. tau dont get any of that fun...


__________________________________________________ _____________


Being serious about the issue, a lot of people have problems with tau for a variety of reasons.
(1) shoehorned into the 40k-iverse. uh-huh. yeah... in fairness, GW made the tau a gnat at the **** end of the galaxy. if you want shoehorned, look at the necrons. apparently they, and their ctan are responsible for everything that has ever happened. tau? they dont even compare.
(2) they dont fit the 40k-iverse. *shrug* fine. read between the lines. tau are like the roman empire in a lot of ways. Fine, they'll be your friend, but i enjoy the contrast they bring. I feel the torch they hold just shows up the darkness all the more in the other races.
Also, i will point out in the tau GW took a new approach with the tau backstory, and got slated for it. then GW went with the "skulls and doom" idea again for necrons, and rather than being applauded for it, they got slated for lacking imagination, and just rehashing the same old ideas. GW are literally damned both ways...
(3) Plot armour... Fair enough.. As opposed to the mordians who were at their final strongpoint when a deus ex machina turned up. As opposed to wazdakka killing a titan with an ork-bike. as opposed to a SM chapter wiping out an eldar craftworld just cos they're 'ard. As opposed to any gemmellian SM story where the heroes hold out against overwhelming odds and manage to survive not by their own ability, but because other dudes turn up on the last page...
(4) anime... apparently they were designed to get the japs into the game... yeah, and space wolves were designed to get norwiegans and swedes into the game...

then there are the in-game issues

(5) boring codex. I play tau, i love them, but my god am i sick of them! i have one build i can work with. guard, orks, marines, space wolves have dozens of winning builds.
(6) mishmashed design philosophy. GW dont actually know what they're doing with tau. they have no clear cut niche. apparently they're a shooting army, but most armies out there outshoot them. even the railgun is outclassed by a zoanthrope squint! they're supposed to be this long range army, but almost fight like eldar as they must get in to rapid fire, and then get eaten in cc... GW gave them pointless special characters (even tau players hate tau SCs!) and their approach to making commanders cool was ridiculous, situational, pointless and gimmicky wargear as opposed to actual decent abilities...
(6) model quality could be better.
(7) outdated rules. its a third edition codex with a 4th ed band aid, but its still essentially the same 8 year old codex it always was. its feeling its age, and compared to whats out there, its sorely underpowered. if i was to get a new army, id tell people space wolves. ignore the tau for now.

Sternguard777
22-02-2010, 10:23
I don't mind Tau. My first game was against Tau in which I was spurred into learning the rules and raising my own army because I lost miserably, but I don't think the Tau should be taken out of the game for it. I don't think I lost because the 4th ed tau were super cheesy flying anime robots but because like manyy an imperial general I refused to adapt my strategy in the least bit to fit the situation. I didn't know the rules so I couldn,t properly fight my enemy so my forces perished.

I know all of you who hate the Tau have yourselves reasons for it but stop and think about them for a moment.

-Tau fluff armor- This is in my opinion entirly negated by all the entries in other codexes when the poor upstart xenos are blasted to bits by green fighting mushroom people with thier own guns or harvested by robots while thier leader was awarding the robots medals for killing the space bugs that were eating thier planet. Give it a break without fluff armour there would be no fluff as every race's VIPS and important locations would die or be destroyed after one battle.

-"Came out of nowhere."- If you think about it the entire game came out of no where when GW decided it would get some extra money if it expanded its fantasy wargame into a science fantasy in space. So the Tau came into the game after 2nd Ed. if you want to play 2nd Ed armies with 2nd Ed rules no ones stopping you.

-Don't like thier models- These statments have been almost entirely based upon opinion in that some people are hating the battlesuits with a rightous fury, while others love the battlesuits but hate the auxilleries with a passion, my advice would be to stop being so picky as to which plastic toy soldiers in an army that you don't like and there for don't play sucks the worst.

-I hate Anime- okay but i don't see what that has to do with tiny toy soldiers whose gear is anime based. you dont play them for a reason, if you hate a mechsuits guts just because its not grimdark enough for you, then go play IG or space marines or orks or eldar or any or the other factions that exist that you may actually like. you can like what you like just don't ripp on what other people like because you think its going to take over and invade you plastic soldiers game and destroy the universe with good intensions.

-I hate Tau (Technology/character/tactical/character/lack of/existing) fluff- Alright so the Tau are a little different from your average super soldier toting hyper religious 40k faction. Just because GW wanted to make a new race with some different fluff that actually understand thier technology and have tactics beyond running at the opponent with sticks doesn't mean they have sinned against the universe and must pay with the blood of thier offspring. (I'm looking at you Chaos players). As for the characters having fluff armour as thick as the president's bunker's walls they have three special characters of which only one of which is loyal to thier empire and able to fight worth a damn. I'm sure GW will expand upon/fix the fluff with the next codex if Warseer's whighning doesn't have the whole army deleted as per Squats.

-I just hate them on the table top- now this I can't help as it is based entirely in you opinions gleaned from fighting against the Tau as they tried to make your little plastic soldiers join them or die. If you couldn't find ways to defeat them, or don't have fun beating them I can completely see how this could have tarnished them forever in your perspective but it must be said that 5th ED has crippled them as a playable army in all aspects except what they're good at so mabye they hate you with you stick bearing brutish shock troops and hope you'll rue the day when they get the upper hand again as Im sure the necron players would be eager to be rid of phase out and get a fifth ed army with all the perks of a new release.

For the most part all the posts in the thread say "i dont mind that about tau i hate them because..." and it never ends it even goes into all other armies or even threads were someone just steps in to comlpain and steps out were everyones opinion is geared exclusivly at what they like and everything else is blashphamy. Can't everyone just play nice and have a meaningful disscussion for once?

NightrawenII
22-02-2010, 10:31
Could you please explain that to us poor souls who do not have that book.
Hmm, in short

The Imperium is assembling resources for the Abddon's 13th Crusade. One of the mining worlds for Forgeworlds is the Taros, which apparently have fallen in the influence of Tau Empire. So the Imperials send the SM to punish traitorous governor.
Big Suprise!! There is entire FW Cadre+ Cavalry = SM get beaten.
Now, what? The Taros is insignificant, but we cannot let these filthy xenos desecrating the Imperial soil.
So the small crusade is assembled (and there you start to smell something fishy, because the books make the great effort to explain you, how hard it's to get enough troops, warmachines, material etc. etc.)
After many problems and half-backed solutions (half of the regiments never land on the planet, promised titan support consists from group of Warhouds)the crusade is launched on Taros.

Now, the Tau out-manouver, out-fight and out-wit any Imperial effort, because ya'now, the Tau use intuitive and modern tactic, where the Imperial commanders are bunch of incompentent ******. Mind you, the bulk of imperial army is made from Tallarn Desert Raiders and Taros is Desert Planet.:eek:
The Imperials also suffer from supply problems, while the Tau don't, regardless on the fact, that the planet is under Imperial blocade.
In desperate attempt to turn the tide of war, the IG commanders send assassin to kill the Ethereal, Im not sure what happend, but the Ethereal ends up death. Now, you are expecting the Tau to flee in terror. Wrong!! The Tau suffer from Perils of Nerdrage and launch furious assault on Imperials, slaughter them rigth, left and centre.
The Imperial Army escape annihilation just because the Raptors (what are doing jungle-specialists on desert planet is beyond me.) cover their withdrawal.
And the Major Facepalm come at the end, in this sentence(IIRC):
"For the Hight Lords of Terra, the Taros was only small matter in the great theatre of universe, it's loss insignificant for the great Imperium of Man, but for Tau Empire it was the greatest and epical battle with all of their efforts committed to the battlefield.:wtf:

Brother Loki
22-02-2010, 10:36
Where did this idea that Tau are a sit back and shoot army come from? Even in 4th that hardly ever happened in a successful army - the majority of Tau shooting is done at 12" or less with only the markerlights and railguns hanging back. Overwhelming localised short ranged firepower is how Tau win games, either from firewarriors or suits rapid firing, using markerlights to increase BS and reduce cover saves and then using JSJ to avoid the response. It doesn't work as well in 5th as it did in 4th due to the changes in cover and LOS, but it still works.

GrimZAG
22-02-2010, 10:40
Yet when necrons were introduced (an army invented from nowhere) no one complained, even though both the inquisition and squats were ignored.

Probably because this thread is specifically about Tau. :D

and in Coolness rating, Necrons are up there. You can't really have a good sci-fi universe without merciless undead robot apocalypse type creatures.

Sternguard777
22-02-2010, 10:42
Hmm, in short

The Imperium is assembling resources for the Abddon's 13th Crusade. One of the mining worlds for Forgeworlds is the Taros, which apparently fall in the influence of Tau Empire. So the Imperials send the SM to punish traitorous governor.
Big Suprise!! There is entire FW Cadre+ Cavalry = SM get beaten.
Now, what? The Taros is insignificant, but we cannot let these filthy xenos desecrating the Imperial soil.
So the small crusade is assembled (and there you start to smell something fishy, because the books make the great effort to explain you, how hard it's to get enough troops, warmachines, material etc. etc.)
After many problems and half-backed solutions (half of the regiments never land on the planet, promised titan support consists from group of Warhouds)the crusade is launched on Taros.

Now, the Tau out-manouver, out-fight and out-wit any Imperial effort, because ya'now, the Tau use intuitive and modern tactic, where the Imperial commanders are bunch of incompentent ******. Mind you, the bulk of imperial army is made from Tallarn Desert Raiders and Taros is Desert Planet.:eek:
The Imperials also suffer from supply problems, where the Tau don't, regardless on the fact, that the planet is under Imperial blocade.
In desperate attempt to turn the tide of war, the IG commanders send assassin to kill the Ethereal, Im not sure what happend, but the Ethereal ends up death. Now, you are expecting the Tau to flee in terror. Wrong!! The Tau suffer from Perils of Nerdrage and launch furious assault on Imperials, slaughter them rigth, left and centre.
The Imperial Army escape annihilation just because the Raptors (what are doing jungle-specialists on desert planet is beyond me.) cover their withdrawal.
And the Major Facepalm come at the end, in this sentence(IIRC):
"For the Hight Lords of Terra, the Taros was only small matter in the great theatre of universe, it's loss insignificant for the great Imperium of Man, but for Tau Empire it was the greatest and epical battle with all of their efforts committed to the battlefield.:wtf:

so basically the Imperium made a big fuss over nothing and pulled resorces that could be doing the other thing to fight the tau on a planet they didn't even really want? :wtf:

laudarkul
22-02-2010, 12:00
I do not like their model look (especially the crisis) .
Their fluff is based in crushing my army type (IG) and the whole greater good stuff behind their fluff makes them annoying to me.
I like playing against them and when I'm beat them more then happy :D.

WinglessVT2
22-02-2010, 12:18
They're anime because they wear mechasuits, dart around the battlefield going 'pewpew,' and when they're done with this, they 'jump' back.

Of course, the imperium of man fields even larger mechasuits.

Iracundus
22-02-2010, 12:47
Now, the Tau out-manouver, out-fight and out-wit any Imperial effort, because ya'now, the Tau use intuitive and modern tactic, where the Imperial commanders are bunch of incompentent ******. Mind you, the bulk of imperial army is made from Tallarn Desert Raiders and Taros is Desert Planet.

Just because it is a desert planet doesn't mean the Tallarn are guaranteed to win. In particular, 3 of the regiments were infantry regiments meaning their overall level of mechanization and mobility was limited. Now that can be laid at the blame of the people assembling the operation, but they were under constraints due to forces being needed at the Cadian Gate.

The failure of Imperial strategy and tactics can be blamed on the incompetence of their commanders. The Tallarn infantry did more or less what they were told to do, paying a high price in blood along the way.



The Imperials also suffer from supply problems, while the Tau don't, regardless on the fact, that the planet is under Imperial blocade.

The blockade was never total as the Tau maintained a fleet in being for the duration of the battle. The Imperial ships were occupied protecting the vulnerable troop and water transports ferrying supplies to the ground forces.

The Tau had also already confiscated most of the existing water supplies on the planet and had control of the largest purification plants on the planet so they had existing and ongoing supplies of water from the planet while denying them to the Imperials. Furthermore they were described as having higher tolerances to dehydration and desert conditions than humans, likely because the Tau originated from an overall arid planet themselves.



In desperate attempt to turn the tide of war, the IG commanders send assassin to kill the Ethereal, Im not sure what happend, but the Ethereal ends up death. Now, you are expecting the Tau to flee in terror. Wrong!!

Which is not unexpected since in the previous Tau codices, an increased determination through a desire for revenge is documented as one of the reactions to an Ethereal's death.



And the Major Facepalm come at the end, in this sentence(IIRC):
"For the Hight Lords of Terra, the Taros was only small matter in the great theatre of universe, it's loss insignificant for the great Imperium of Man, but for Tau Empire it was the greatest and epical battle with all of their efforts committed to the battlefield.:wtf:

You don't remember correctly. There is no such excessive Tau chest beating at the end. That is the precise danger of relying on memory, colored by bias. What it does say is this:



Following their victory, the planet and its mineral resources were now firmly in Tau hands. Over the following years the Tau would increase their grip on T'ros. Their young empire had been expanded, and ships from T'au and Dal'yth would soon be in orbit, loaded with alien colonists. Meanwhile the Imperium was powerless to strike back. Another invasion would require a far greater force than that sent to Taros under Lord Commander Gustavus, and it was just not possible at this time. There would be no second invasion for the forseeable future. With T'ros secure, the Ethereal councilors on T'au shifted their gaze to the new borders of their Empire, and eyed the next world for conquest... p. 146, Imperial Armour 3

It says it rather to the point without any overblown bombastic boasts. The Imperium's inability is due to the impending 13th Black Crusade and as the Eye of Terror campaign showed, the Tau did indeed expand when the bulk of Imperial forces were distracted.

NightrawenII
22-02-2010, 13:39
The blockade was never total as the Tau maintained a fleet in being for the duration of the battle. The Imperial ships were occupied protecting the vulnerable troop and water transports ferrying supplies to the ground forces.

The Tau had also already confiscated most of the existing water supplies on the planet and had control of the largest purification plants on the planet so they had existing and ongoing supplies of water from the planet while denying them to the Imperials. Furthermore they were described as having higher tolerances to dehydration and desert conditions than humans, likely because the Tau originated from an overall arid planet themselves.
I was talking more about fuel and ammo problems though.

Which is not unexpected since in the previous Tau codices, an increased determination through a desire for revenge is documented as one of the reactions to an Ethereal's death.
Fine.

You don't remember correctly. There is no such excessive Tau chest beating at the end. That is the precise danger of relying on memory, colored by bias. What it does say is this:

It says it rather to the point without any overblown bombastic boasts. The Imperium's inability is due to the impending 13th Black Crusade and as the Eye of Terror campaign showed, the Tau did indeed expand when the bulk of Imperial forces were distracted.
:eek: Then Im sorry, Im maybe misremember this with DoW: DC. But Im still smelling something fishy. :shifty:

FashaTheDog
22-02-2010, 15:49
They're anime because they wear mechasuits, dart around the battlefield going 'pewpew,' and when they're done with this, they 'jump' back.

Of course, the imperium of man fields even larger mechasuits.

But Imperial mecha suits don't dart, they purposefully stride through combat. Not only that, they have more than one pilot, usually, and their guns don't go 'pewpew,' they go BOOM-MOTHER@#$%ER-BOOM!!! FOR THE EMPEROR!!!!!!!!!! The Mech?, Mecha? -It's pronounced TITAN! motivational poster is actually an official Imperial flier they post on all worlds bordering the Tau Empire, just to be sure. Oh and those Imperial mecha suits with only one pilot don't get too much attention anymore even though they usually have giant chainsaws just to be safe from someone thinking hey, Imperium of Man can be anime too, like the Desu Brigade.

Deadnight
22-02-2010, 16:55
Where did this idea that Tau are a sit back and shoot army come from? .

the background, shockingly.... check the designer notes, tau wiki, and fluffbible if you're interested. here is the exact quote:

Preferring long-range firefights rather than close assaults

there is a difference between "sit back and shoot", and "long range". that said, the entirety of kaoyon tactics involves sitting down and waiting for the other guy to come to you...



Even in 4th that hardly ever happened in a successful army - the majority of Tau shooting is done at 12" or less with only the markerlights and railguns hanging back. .

game mechanics =/= fluff. see here is an example of the mish mashed design philosophy. they're supposedly this long range army, yet must get into the area where they're most vulnerable in order to pop off a few extra shots, and then, assault happens.


Overwhelming localised short ranged firepower is how Tau win games, either from firewarriors or suits rapid firing, using markerlights to increase BS and reduce cover saves and then using JSJ to avoid the response. It doesn't work as well in 5th as it did in 4th due to the changes in cover and LOS, but it still works.

not according to the fluff. tau are not designed to work up close, but sadly due to 40k game mechanics they must. i always liken it to fighting like eldar, except without the close combat, psychic powers, resilience and yet having all their weaknesses...

The Orange
22-02-2010, 16:58
Actually, I don't know why tau were made
PROFITS....at the time Tau were the fastest growing segment of sales (for xenos armies at least). It was simply a way to make a quick buck for GW. The Tau codex was little more then a reprint with added Forgeworld knockoffs, and poorly developed new units. (edit: referring to why the 2nd Tau codex came so soon).


or what GW was smoking when they decided to add mecha battlesuits to their universe.
Oh of course, Dreadnoughts/wrathlords/Titans (Imperial/Eldar/Ork/etc)/penitent engines/deff dreads/killa kans/Chaos Defilers/sentinels are so obviously not giant robots :eyebrows:


They're anime because they wear mechasuits, dart around the battlefield going 'pewpew,' and when they're done with this, they 'jump' back.
And how is that anime? When clearly you admit....


the imperium of man fields even larger mechasuits.

The Tau have an obvious Japanese Samurai warrior influence what with their honorable warrior background and segmented armor (or chinese warriors too). Add to that they also use battlesuits, and OMG nerdrage revelation, anime has battlesuits, anime is from Japan, Tau is so Asian, "they must be anime!!!" :eek:.........:eyebrows:

09Project
22-02-2010, 17:07
I don't dislike Tau, but I would never get an army and they can be a bit annoying to play.

I think the idea is a good one, I have nothing against mecha suits in 40k, but just feel the fluff is a tad dull and they don't really seem to interact with the other main races in the same way as others (and lets face it they have the threat level of a three legged cat where the Imperium is concerned). They almost just out on their own, some change in a fluff though and rethink on the army and I think they'd be really good.

Must say I like the Firewarrior models, the FW Crisis suits are often very nice too. The standard GW Battle Suits though remind me of series of shoeboxes, which is not a good look.

carl
22-02-2010, 17:55
I'd like to point out that whilst Tau look nothing like the real eastern anime stuff i have seen they DO look like every western anime fanboys idea of what animie looks like. (if you get what i mean, those who've heard of but never seen it).

WinglessVT2
22-02-2010, 18:00
We could always add the eldar titans to the obvious anime inspirations afoot in the game.
Now that's a darting pewpew mechasuit if I ever saw one.

Cerraand
22-02-2010, 20:04
overall people dislike the look of the models, their philosophy and the play style...
also "They don't fit in the 40k universe" appeared a couple of times.

I saw a lot of rant implying that their existence was an abomination that deserved to be purged from the entire game...

Imo, their difference from is refreshing.
Also, a lot of people seems to misinterprets a lot of stuff in their fluff... try reading it with objectivity.
I tried doing it with the races I don't like and my perception changed a lot (sometimes for the worst it's true)

One last thing (it's my turn to rant) how can you think the kroots are much better than the Tau? (than anything in fact)???
The models sucks, the fluff sucks, everything about them sucks!
it's only a matter of personal taste ;)

johnwayne
22-02-2010, 20:06
why are they sometimes called 'space cows'?

WinglessVT2
22-02-2010, 20:07
Because the imperial infantryman's uplifting primer states that they have udders.

Plague.Monk
22-02-2010, 20:14
Giant robots, such as the Ork, Imperial, and Inquisition mechs, are much darker and more grim than the Tau. the Tau have the pretty clean cut lines and very very japanese anime influenced styles when it comes to armor. Giant robots in general are not anime, but the tau ones, are.

KingDeath
22-02-2010, 20:20
I dont get the nerdrage about the Tau. Sure, one might not like their look or their playstyle, but the same could be said about every other race in 40k.
Yes, the fluffarmour is a bit...thick at times but i am fairly certain that this will be scaled back in the future / already has been scaled back a bit ( Nimbosa Crusade, the Zeist Campaign, the current Nid Codex ), now that the Tau Empire is quite large and a few defeats wont be enough to destroy it.

That the Tau appear to be a relatively bright spot on the otherwise cruel and mercyless ( sometimes played to utter stupidity, remember the "Let no good deed go unpunished..." quote in the current Chaos Codex ) is actually quite refreshing. Besides that, noone could deny that even the Tau are hardly white knights. They might not be grimdark, but they have lost their white vest a long time ago.

Sygerrik
22-02-2010, 21:18
I noticed how in the end of the Dark Crusade Tau campaign, they round up the remaining humans and stick 'em in camps, then sterilize them so that the planet will only be populated by the Master Race of space cows.

Ok, so they're not Space Commies. They're Space Nazis.
/godwin'd

WinglessVT2
22-02-2010, 21:20
Did the nazis go pewpew with robot suits? No?

Didn't think so, so hah!

Pushkin
22-02-2010, 21:33
Not a huge fan myself, but i don't hate them either. I never felt there was anything about Tau to get that passionate.

I hate the fact people refer to them as communists. because they're clearly not. But it would be good if they were. It would add a new dimension to the grim future of the 40k millenium if there was a real marxist, collectivist feel to the Tau. Certainly a conflict of ideologies could only add to the fluff?

azimaith
22-02-2010, 21:36
the background, shockingly.... check the designer notes, tau wiki, and fluffbible if you're interested. here is the exact quote:

Preferring long-range firefights rather than close assaults

there is a difference between "sit back and shoot", and "long range". that said, the entirety of kaoyon tactics involves sitting down and waiting for the other guy to come to you...

Except for the part where they don't like defensive actions and Kauyon is an ambush (as in a short ranged surprise attack) and Mont'ka is a storming action, which by its definition is a short ranged attack.

Their two main mentioned methods of attack rely on the overwhelming use of short ranged firepower while the use of long ranged firepower typically requires defending a fortress or other elevated position which they are specified to not do.

Long ranged fire fights is entirely a question of "long ranged for actual combat or long ranged like sniping."

All signs point to a longer engagement range for tau warriors but not at a mile away sniping.

senorcardgage
22-02-2010, 21:41
I used to notice a common dislike for Tau, but that has faded greatly. Back in the day, their crisis suits could hide behind LOS blocking terrain and pepper you to no end. Back in the day they could also annihilate you with shooting while you slowly advanced, but with running its not so bad.

It seems like since their inception Tau has gotten the short end of the proverbial stick and so I feel sorry for them more than anything else.

carl
22-02-2010, 21:46
I noticed how in the end of the Dark Crusade Tau campaign, they round up the remaining humans and stick 'em in camps, then sterilize them so that the planet will only be populated by the Master Race of space cows.


Which is completly stupid since every other fluff source goes on about how much they VALUE such populations for what they can bring to the tau empire. they eve go so far as to give the more long term residents a supply of Tau weaponry....

FW dosen't do gd background though.

I mean if you look up the opriginol Epic stats for the Manta, (which existed long before the FW model). It had a radiclly diffrent armerment outfit, diffrent transport capacities and a bunch of other advantages that to my knowlage the FW one lacks.

WinglessVT2
22-02-2010, 21:46
Even back then, you still lost to anyone with infiltrators, or faster movement than regular infantry.

"Hey, look, I can hide my 30 scouts behind this forest 12 inches from your firebase."

"My chaos lord is cavalry, and has infiltrate."

The Orange
22-02-2010, 21:49
the Tau have the pretty clean cut lines and very very japanese anime influenced styles when it comes to armor. Giant robots in general are not anime, but the tau ones, are.

Seriously? Maybe the FW made suits yes, but I don't know how anyone can call the giant bricks the Tau call a crisis suits anything but ugly.

WinglessVT2
22-02-2010, 21:49
Am I the only person in the whole world who likes the regular, ancient crisis suit?

The Orange
22-02-2010, 22:05
they eve go so far as to give the more long term residents a supply of Tau weaponry....
They don't give them "their" weapons, just weapons that are sufficient. Kroot use their own guns, only with upgraded ammo from the Tau, the Vespids are pretty much mind controlled drones for the Tau and even then their easy fodder that has to close in with the enemy, and Humans are only given the ability to produce the IG equivalent in most cases. Everyone is not equal in the Tau Empire, Tau are the 1st class citizens, it just so happens to be that their culture has evolved to idolize self sacrifice for the community.


I mean if you look up the original Epic stats
Epic is a different game, why would it's stats match regular 40k?


Am I the only person in the whole world who likes the regular, ancient crisis suit?

Probably, I find it lacking in detail and plain boring. It's not sleek and smooth, the whole thing is a jumble of parallel and perpendicular lines. I don't understand how someone can look at an XV8 and say "that's amine influenced". If they were painted red, blue and white, had giant golden crests on their foreheads, and swung laser swords....they yea, but their nothing like that. Also take a look at GWs BFG Tau fleet, ugly ugly blocky models IMO. Again it was FW that produced the more smooth and crisp Tau models.

Baracus
22-02-2010, 22:08
Sounds a bit like mobile suit Gundam

Kensai
22-02-2010, 22:14
Yeah, the current crisis suit models are pretty meh. The forgeworld ones are definitely a step up, but are still kinda ugly.

Here's to hoping that their next codex/model releases includes re-done crisis suits.

carl
22-02-2010, 22:17
They don't give them "their" weapons, just weapons that are sufficient. Kroot use their own guns, only with upgraded ammo from the Tau, the Vespids are pretty much mind controlled drones for the Tau and even then their easy fodder that has to close in with the enemy, and Humans are only given the ability to produce the IG equivalent in most cases. Everyone is not equal in the Tau Empire, Tau are the 1st class citizens, it just so happens to be that their culture has evolved to idolize self sacrifice for the community.


They give them markerlights, pulse rifles, Burst Cannone and a few other lower end goodies in the case of humans.

Human nature being what it is it tends to be the high commands that horde them but they get them.


Epic is a different game, why would it's stats match regular 40k?


Becuase it's exactly the same unit....

Dyrnwyn
22-02-2010, 22:26
Probably, I find it lacking in detail and plain boring. It's not sleek and smooth, the whole thing is a jumble of parallel and perpendicular lines. I don't understand how someone can look at an XV8 and say "that's amine influenced". If they were painted red, blue and white, had giant golden crests on their foreheads, and swung laser swords....they yea, but their nothing like that. Also take a look at GWs BFG Tau fleet, ugly ugly blocky models IMO. Again it was FW that produced the more smooth and crisp Tau models.

You know, oddly enough, I rather enjoy the contrasting aesthetic between the blockier Tau units with the sleeker ones. Shows to me the constantly upgraded technology of the Tau. The XV8 is a workhorse and they haven't really developed anything that's all around better, so they keep using it, even as their newer ship and tank designs overtake their older ones, replacing blocky utility with more sleek aesthetic designs. That said, some of the FW suits are FAR nicer looking.

shadowskale
22-02-2010, 22:27
There is a reason why tau are hated, and I shall show it with these funny pictures :p

Lord of Worms
22-02-2010, 22:54
Not a huge fan myself, but i don't hate them either. I never felt there was anything about Tau to get that passionate.

I hate the fact people refer to them as communists. because they're clearly not. But it would be good if they were. It would add a new dimension to the grim future of the 40k millenium if there was a real marxist, collectivist feel to the Tau. Certainly a conflict of ideologies could only add to the fluff?

To a communist, there has never been a "true" communist government, because communism is apparently perfect. If it fails to live up to their defied leader's prophecies, it isn't communism. It's the same argument many protestant splinter groups give when saying that the Catholic church isn't "true" Christianity because of the Crusades or some equally insipid self-referential value judgement. I've heard those arguments before and to be honest with you, most of that sophistry comes from either pol-sci or philosophy grads with an exaggerated sense of their own importance.

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
22-02-2010, 23:34
To a communist, there has never been a "true" communist government, because communism is apparently perfect. If [...]. I've heard those arguments before and to be honest with you, most of that sophistry comes from either pol-sci or philosophy grads with an exaggerated sense of their own importance.

I won't argue with you, I just wanna say:
There never was a real communist government. Because communism, as well as anarchy, are utopias, pre-supposing that men are good-willing being, with an highly developped moral sense and no selfisness.
The USSR, and the so-called "democratic republics" of the Pact of Warsaw, were dictatures, and nothing else.
By the way, K. Marx was a philosopher, not an economist.
And I'm not graduated in philo or pol-sci.
Before I get some health troubles, I was working as a chef.
But it's irrelevant on this forum, and I apologize for this aparte.

fluffstalker
22-02-2010, 23:44
ROFL@ the TH Termie pawning the Ethereal. Thats why TH/SS termies are hated though, not why tau are hated.

TheMav80
22-02-2010, 23:56
I like the Tau due to the fact that they aren't stupid ridiculously grim-dark.

Gothic horror fantasy in space is a cool idea. GW just does a horrible ham fisted job of bringing it about. Apparently their solution is to just throw skulls on everything!

OMG look how hardcore that guy is! He's using a skull for a gun that shoots flaming skulls at you, while wearing armour made from skulls...all wrapped in chains. :rolleyes:

They've become a parody of themselves and it is getting stupid.

Lord of Worms
23-02-2010, 00:02
I won't argue with you, I just wanna say:
There never was a real communist government. Because communism, as well as anarchy, are utopias.
By the way, K. Marx was a philosopher, not an economist.


I understand what you`re saying, but would that make somebody any less of an anarchist in spite of the obvious practical impossibility? To be honest, we call our government `Democracy`, but they have absolutely no traits associated with that concept either. Communism was clearly a propaganda tool for small groups of people to take control of societies and I see striking similarities between a planned economy with collective ownership and the `Greater Good`. If you couple a vague ethical value judgement as the underpinning of society coupled with the Ethereal`s mind-control powers and you have just entered Communism 2.0. They don`t even need a media. People point to their caste society and squeal `blasphemy` when comparing it to Communism because the Commie Bible never told them to do it, therefore it wasn`t communist. I call ******** on that. For a government to exist any society needs at least two classes,rulers and ruled.

I know he was a philosopher, I never said otherwise.
Forgive me if I sound vitriolic, but this is an argument (except fot the Tau part) I`ve had with far too many people who listened to two lectures, pretended to read the manifesto, and think they "get it".

WinglessVT2
23-02-2010, 00:03
Skulls and pieces of parchment, if I may.
With little skulls stamped into the wax seals.

Jayden63
23-02-2010, 00:26
I never really thought much of crisis, stealth, or broadside suits. They were all just kinda meh, even the new forgeworld suits are just ok. But I love Tau tank, firewarrior, and drone designs. Love them.

I care just as much about Tau background as I do 40K background in general. That is... not much. I'm a modeler, then a gamer, then a reader, in that order. So for me, Tau just rock. and you can never have too many Hammerheads or Devilfish on the table. As for performance back in 4th ed. their battlefield performance was solid. Not OTT, but solid. A good general could go toe to toe with even the power dexs.

Now its a different story on the battlefield. My Tau now proudly sit on the shelf, looking pretty, but staying home until they get a rework to make them more viable on the battlefield once again.

Also to all those Tau haters out there. You need to get on your knees and kiss their little blue toes. The Tau were the first completely new race that 40K had in a long time. GK are just more marines, deamons are just chaos offshoots. Tau were something completely different, the release of that army breathed a new life into the game and brought countless new players into the fold. GW was doing **** poor at the time and the Tau gave them a proper shot in the arm that they needed.

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
23-02-2010, 00:32
@Lord of Worms: no offense intended, no offense taken.:)

The rulers / ruled point of your post is interesting too. But it's not the right place to discuss this... Alas.

Philhelm
23-02-2010, 00:59
Well, as far as the Tau go, I think part of the issue is that they are completely new to the Warhammer 40K universe, so that alone may be a reason that they are regarded with reservation. On the other hand, the Necrons were a new introduction to the Warhammer 40K universe, but I think they were executed better, and Terminators were sorely lacking. I'm sure I'm not alone in fantasizing about Tech-Com IG fighting Necrons.

I don't hate the Tau, but the anime influence doesn't appeal to me. Having said that, the over the top gothic aspect of W40K gets annoying too, but not as much as the Tau.

The Kroot, on the other hand, I love. I would certainly field a whole army of them if I could, and they had their own Codex.

Lord of Worms
23-02-2010, 01:03
Well, as far as the Tau go, I think part of the issue is that they are completely new to the Warhammer 40K universe, so that alone may be a reason that they are regarded with reservation. On the other hand, the Necrons were a new introduction to the Warhammer 40K universe, but

Well, I don`t think that the Dark Eldar faced the same reservations when they were first introduced. They weren`t popular, but IIRC people didn`t hate their existence so much.

EDIT:


The rulers / ruled point of your post is interesting too. But it's not the right place to discuss this... Alas.

I was looking up a quote for another thread and came across this. It`s from The Book of Lies by Aleister Crowley

LOUIS LINGG
I am not an Anarchist in your sense of the word: your
brain is too dense for any known explosive to
affect it.
I am not an Anarchist in your sense of the word:
fancy a Policeman let loose on Society!
While there exists the burgess, the hunting man, or
any man with ideals less than Shelley’s and self discipline
less than Loyola’s —in short, any man
who falls far short of MYSELF —I am against
Anarchy, and for Feudalism.
Every “emancipator” has enslaved the free.

This book is always strangely stimulating whenever I read it. It`s been a while.:)

borithan
23-02-2010, 17:27
I personally like the normal battlesuits. They just seem quite dinky.



I hate the fact people refer to them as communists. because they're clearly not. But it would be good if they were. It would add a new dimension to the grim future of the 40k millenium if there was a real marxist, collectivist feel to the Tau. Certainly a conflict of ideologies could only add to the fluff?There have already been allusions to Marxism and Communism in the 40k background... Heck, one of the inspirations of the Imperium is clearly the Soviet Union.

The Dark Crusade ending was only a possible answer to why the human population fell after the Tau victory. It was not stated as fact, just a guess by Imperial analysts.


To a communist, there has never been a "true" communist government, because communism is apparently perfect.Its not just that. There are just some things which have no place in Communism in any form, perfect or not. The Caste system for one. Anyway, most supposed "Communist" countries have never claimed to be communist societies. They have claimed to be societies on the way to a communist society. I believe the USSR's term for its own political/economic system was "state socialism". Marxists generally knew when they didn't measure up to the idea of a communist society.


To be honest, we call our government `Democracy`, but they have absolutely no traits associated with that concept either.A government chosen by the people it represents, and allows involvement of the general public in the political system, whether directly or indirectly. Western Democracies are democracies, but then democracies don't have to be perfect to be democracies, so they are achievable.



and I see striking similarities between a planned economy with collective ownership and the `Greater Good`.The "Greater Good" is an idea common to all human societies. We are a collective creature and the idea that there is a result that would be best for the community as a whole which happens to require individual sacrifice is present everywhere. For example, JFK's "Ask now what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" (or however it goes) amounts to a very similar idea, and you aren't going to call him a Communist are you? "Greater Good" =/= communism or socialism. All political ideologies believe in a "Greater Good", except for anarcho-capitalism... but then part of their argument is often that all being selfish bastards results in the best result for everyone.


For a government to exist any society needs at least two classes,rulers and ruled. The whole point of a communist society is that there are no classes. No rulers and no ruled. Everyone is equal, and everyone can do whatever the **** they want. It is a utopian idea (regardless of the fact that Marx argued it wasn't), but if a society has classes, it is not a communist one. And if a society has Castes, it isn't even one striving to be anything like a communist one.

Lord of Worms
23-02-2010, 18:38
A government chosen by the people it represents, and allows involvement of the general public in the political system, whether directly or indirectly. Western Democracies are democracies, but then democracies don't have to be perfect to be democracies, so they are achievable.
.

They are not democracies. They are constitutional republics or constitutional monarchies. There is a massive difference. Having a right to vote does not mean democracy.

leadlair
23-02-2010, 18:48
And I was basically wondering why? Is it because their underpowered, or maybe cheap? Every one of my friends except one that I know that play 40K just don't like this army what so ever.

So why all the hub bub. . . bub?

1. They aren't Space Marines. Obviously nothing that the Tau can do about that but any new race will be judged against Space Marines. It is just the way it is.

2. The original play style in 3rd edition was really annoying. Some of the game mechanics were just broken. Not being able to shoot at someone when they can shoot at you is cheesy. So GW didn't do them any favors with this.

3. They aren't as grim as the rest of the setting so a lot of people do not think they fit into the fluff. I guess to some extent they don't fit in that they have a different fluff feel than everything that came before. Personally having been into 40k for over 20 years now I think this is a good thing. The grim dark future stuff gets a little old after a while.

4. Well they really just came off as a rip off of anime / mecha stuff. I would say that their suits are really what people do not like. It just makes you roll your eyes a little bit that GW couldn't come up with something more original than that.

leadlair
23-02-2010, 18:49
first reason: they are xenos

second reason: they had token the place of the Squat with ... a disgustive background

third reason: they are... nothing! they doesn't fit at all in the Dark Millennium. I expect for their total annihilation or removal from the game.

Not sure how you figure they replaced the Squats considering how long it had been in between the canning of the squats and the arrival of the Tau????

Deadnight
23-02-2010, 19:26
Except for the part where they don't like defensive actions and Kauyon is an ambush (as in a short ranged surprise attack) and Mont'ka is a storming action, which by its definition is a short ranged attack.
.

wrong, on both counts.

kauyon is pulling the enemy into a firetrap. read the battle at the mine in iav3 for a perfect example of a kauyon battle. guard pushed forward, tau hit them hard when they got into range, the guardsmen then counter attacked, pushed forward to seize the complex at which point the tau disengaged, retreated to their orcas and pulled out.

as to montka it means killing blow. overwhelming a particular point of the enemy with overwhelming firepower. as to storming actions, these are only an element of montka (as in seize a position, a philosophy also not held close to the heart by most shas according to the tau - remember territory is irrelevant) that part is conducted by the kroot, with their superior fieldcraft, while the tau offer long range support fire and try to eliminate enemy firepoints targetting the kroot force...

montka is more about eliminating the enemy rather than grabbing that position.



Their two main mentioned methods of attack rely on the overwhelming use of short ranged firepower while the use of long ranged firepower typically requires defending a fortress or other elevated position which they are specified to not do.
.

wrong. in the vast majority of the fluff, when things get up close and personal the tau either send in the kroot or pull out. beyond that, reading IAV3, the fire warriors seem to enjoy setting up an etreme range perimeter, and closing in from there at their pleasure. drones, kroot, and on occassion, crisis suits (ie against terminators) are all they seem happy to send into close quarters...



Long ranged fire fights is entirely a question of "long ranged for actual combat or long ranged like sniping."

All signs point to a longer engagement range for tau warriors but not at a mile away sniping.

indeed, there is a sniper army. alaitoc eldar. tau are not snipers. theyre US marines. badass grunts with kickass gear and excellent armour backing them up. in the "real" world, i'd expect them engaging at a few hundred metres or more, unless its tau armour which is often reported as engaging beyond visual range. In 40k terms, i would argue long range means engaging beyond 12" as a preference, rather than needing to get that close to be effective.

weirdmaster
23-02-2010, 19:52
The Demiurg are the Squats' replacements and they are currently allied with the Tau (well, a couple brotherhoods are at least).

I have no idea why so many people don't like the Tau. I've never been able to figure it out.

As far as the Tau Empire, being communist: I don't think so as they have a leadership caste. And the Tau are "First among equals" (that's a quote straight from the Tau codex).

fluffstalker
23-02-2010, 20:03
The Demiurg are the Squats' replacements and they are currently allied with the Tau (well, a couple brotherhoods are at least).

I have no idea why so many people don't like the Tau. I've never been able to figure it out.

As far as the Tau Empire, being communist: I don't think so as they have a leadership caste. And the Tau are "First among equals" (that's a quote straight from the Tau codex).

Sounds like a 20th century regime to me. Cookies to the one who gets it.

azimaith
23-02-2010, 21:47
wrong, on both counts.

kauyon is pulling the enemy into a firetrap. read the battle at the mine in iav3 for a perfect example of a kauyon battle. guard pushed forward, tau hit them hard when they got into range, the guardsmen then counter attacked, pushed forward to seize the complex at which point the tau disengaged, retreated to their orcas and pulled out.

That's not kauyon, kauyon is typified by luring enemies in with a "bait" then destroying it in an ambush. That's just a fighting retreat.



as to montka it means killing blow. overwhelming a particular point of the enemy with overwhelming firepower. as to storming actions, these are only an element of montka (as in seize a position, a philosophy also not held close to the heart by most shas according to the tau - remember territory is irrelevant) that part is conducted by the kroot, with their superior fieldcraft, while the tau offer long range support fire and try to eliminate enemy firepoints targetting the kroot force...

Mont'ka is a storming action using overwhelming force to destroy an enemy position. It doesn't matter where you storm you will always need to get in close otherwise you can't force the enemy to move. A tau gunline plinking you from half a mile away will not force you to abandon you're position, you just dig in deeper and render that ineffective.

I guess the Tau codex is wrong on page 12 when it says: "The first involves bringing the prey to the hunters, the second involves the hunters running the prey to the ground; the former is Kauyon, the latter Mont'ka."
Obviously they must run the prey to the ground by standing completely still and bring the bringing the prey to the hunters must mean the hunters flee from the prey right!



montka is more about eliminating the enemy rather than grabbing that position.

I think you're being rather silly to assume tau don't care about ground at all. Even if they don't care about defending it to the death a Tau commander is not so stupid as to ignore the benefits provided by a commanding position on the battlefield. People take their lack of desire to defend to the death too far when they start assuming tau don't care about land at all. You can't fight a war where you are blind to the advantages and traits of terrain. A tau will not fight for a chest deep swamp the same way he will for a high ridge.



wrong. in the vast majority of the fluff, when things get up close and personal the tau either send in the kroot or pull out. beyond that, reading IAV3, the fire warriors seem to enjoy setting up an etreme range perimeter, and closing in from there at their pleasure. drones, kroot, and on occassion, crisis suits (ie against terminators) are all they seem happy to send into close quarters...

The vast majority of fluff has tau striking with precision maneuvers not sitting back on some fortress firing away. The tau way of war is similar to the Eldar, not to a guard artillery company.

Last time checked Kroot, Drones, and Crisis suits are all part of the tau army.



indeed, there is a sniper army. alaitoc eldar. tau are not snipers. theyre US marines. badass grunts with kickass gear and excellent armour backing them up. in the "real" world, i'd expect them engaging at a few hundred metres or more, unless its tau armour which is often reported as engaging beyond visual range. In 40k terms, i would argue long range means engaging beyond 12" as a preference, rather than needing to get that close to be effective.

If you are under the impression marines do not storm buildings or spend all of their time at maximum range for fear of being anywhere near the enemy, and not caring about what sort of ground they hold you are very, very, wrong.

carl
23-02-2010, 22:54
@azimaith & Deadnight:

Your saying contradictory things here.

Given that i think it's only fair to ask you both to provide evidance.

kardar233
23-02-2010, 22:55
My main problem with the Tau is that there are so many good plot hooks GW could have or could still build into them.

Example: Tau are the leftovers or unseen side-effects of the C'tan's genetic engineering, which causes their almost complete lack of warp presence. The Ethereals are a group of Eldar who were sent by their Farseer to keep the Tau under control so that they don't turn back over to the Necrons. However, due to their slowly decreasing numbers, they can't keep full control over their subjects anymore and there are unfortunate... incidents.

I think they really need something to cause intrigue.

Otherwise, they're just Fascist Meritocratic Mecha-using Blue Midgets in Space.

Pushkin
23-02-2010, 23:02
There have already been allusions to Marxism and Communism in the 40k background... Heck, one of the inspirations of the Imperium is clearly the Soviet Union.



To be honest i've never really looked at the imperium that way. I mean obviously there are references in the look of some IG units and the "meatgrinder" way they are supposed to fight, but in ideological terms i've never really picked up on a marxism feel to the 40k universe.

But anyway that wasn't really the point i was trying to make. I was rather getting at the idea that the Tau fluff hints at collectivism/utilitarianism etc. without really giving it its own 40k identity. To be honest i haven't really read much of the BL stuff or played fire warrior, which i get the impression from some of the posts expands on the ingame fluff regarding Tau.

I feel the imperium works as a gaming concept because it takes historical ideas and pushes them to extremes and ends up with its own 40k interpretation of things. E.g. The god emperor of mankind who sits upon golden throne of technology, biological enhanced superhuman monks dressed as knights, walking cathedrals and tanks with organs that fire rockets. completely implausable in their own way but their is an eccentric 40k feel to it all that makes it all make sense.

The imperium cannot be compared to the catholic church/medieval europe in any literal sense but the ideas and concept resonate in the design. With tau, ideas are hinted at but i didn't feel like these ideas have been "40k'ed" and taken to an extreme, nor do the models themselves seem to hint at the fluff behind them.

Its not just the imperium, when you start thinking of all the different 40k quirks and references to history (Orkimedies anyone?) you get a sense of what 40k fluff is all about and why Tau don't fit.

Put it this way, the tau could be put into any other sci-fi universe such as Star Trek or Star Wars without them really seeming out of place, which is why they don;t work in the eccentric/extreme and sometimes comical 40k universe

shadowskale
23-02-2010, 23:20
all this talking about religion and politics just makes me want to say this:
Kill the Heretics
ahem OT: tau are disliked some people loved by others, tau players love the firepower, Necron Dark eldar and other armies with not much shooting hate them

WinglessVT2
23-02-2010, 23:22
I love the mobility.

Juggalo
24-02-2010, 02:15
And I was basically wondering why? Is it because their underpowered, or maybe cheap? Every one of my friends except one that I know that play 40K just don't like this army what so ever.

So why all the hub bub. . . bub?

I think mainly it's because they were introduced very recently (relatively, anyway), and are portrayed as a fledgling civilization, but all of a sudden fluff-wise they are involved in everything, everywhere. It's kind of another instance of a book's fluff crossing into sweaty fan fiction territory (like the Necrons being behind every conspiracy or evil scheme in the universe, or Ultramarines being clones of Jesus).

Or it could be the fact that their glossy anime-feel not only clashes with the grimdark of 40k, but they are also a blatant ploy to attract the Asian market.

WinglessVT2
24-02-2010, 02:17
Which they failed hard at.
Japanese people love tyranids and demonhunters, as well as regular marines.

Pink Horror
24-02-2010, 02:54
OMG look how hardcore that guy is! He's using a skull for a gun that shoots flaming skulls at you, while wearing armour made from skulls...all wrapped in chains.

Which unit is this? I want the army that shoots flaming skulls from a skull gun! I hope the helmet looks like a skull!

sabreu
24-02-2010, 03:09
I know a few people have mentioned the blocky suits compared the smooth, curved vehicles of the tau as a major upsetter, but aren't Space Marines the opposite of that paradigm? Their power armor is quite curvy and smooth, and their vehicles are ::cough:: metal boxes. Thusly, I conclude Tau are very 40k.

DDogwood
24-02-2010, 03:29
They are not democracies. They are constitutional republics or constitutional monarchies. There is a massive difference. Having a right to vote does not mean democracy.

You need to explain your definition of "democracy" to back that one up. Fair, multiple candidate elections are the defining characteristic of a democracy by most accounts. Of course, not all democracies are liberal democracies, which is where many people get mixed up.

A constitutional republic or a constitutional monarchy can be a democracy; the terms are neither synonymous nor mutually exclusive.

The Tau aren't communists, or even socialists, but their society is certainly collectivist instead of individualist. Then again, so is the Imperium, and so are the Necrons, the Eldar and the Tyranids. The Orks have the most liberal society in the 40k universe (they're only lacking the rule of law, which they replace with the rule of Waaagh).

Juggalo
24-02-2010, 03:49
Tau are basically pod people, since the whole civilization is being held together by the ruling caste secreting obeisance pheromones.

Lord of Worms
24-02-2010, 04:01
You need to explain your definition of "democracy" to back that one up. Fair, multiple candidate elections are the defining characteristic of a democracy by most accounts. Of course, not all democracies are liberal democracies, which is where many people get mixed up.

A constitutional republic or a constitutional monarchy can be a democracy; the terms are neither synonymous nor mutually exclusive.


:rolleyes:

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" -Ben Franklin

I'm not going to get into how unlikely it is that "fair" elections actually occur, but practically no government relies on the popular vote to determine it's officials or representation. A few years ago, here in Canada a referendum failed to pass that would have made a portion of Parliament as being determined solely based on the popular vote. Currently, there are very few "contested" ridings where I live. My MP is the leader of the Liberal Party, which is the official opposition party right now. This means that there is no reason for me to vote if I don't want to vote for him. There is no way that the leader of the opposition would find himself not earning a seat in parliament. If they thought that Etobicoke South had even a glimmer of hope of not going liberal they would put him elsewhere. This is the definition of undemocratic (not "oppressive") because my vote might as well not count.

"Most accounts" of what people think democracy means is categorically incorrect. The definitions have changed due to the rhetoric of the times but that does not change what it is.

Any society with "free and fair" elections (:rolleyes: US in this case), in a two party system with a president with a 20-30% approval rating has absolutely nothing to do with "Majority Rule". Why? Because the constitution says so irrespective of how much people don't like it or not like it. Furthermore, none of the current population voted on wether or not to adhere to the constitution. Theoretically if 50% +1 of the populace were unhappy with the whatever's going on, they could immediately veto any and every policy of the public servants. If, and only if, they had a democracy. But they don't. The constitution and bill of rights (and whatever else they have) defines what their rights are and the population itself has no legal authority to change them.

Pink Horror
24-02-2010, 04:14
The Orks have the most liberal society in the 40k universe

Bloody tax-and-spend Orks! :mad:

Firaxin
24-02-2010, 04:58
I don't hate the Tau, per se.

In no particular order--

#1: I hate their designers and their writers, who ruined their potential. I hate the Wardian (yes, I just invented that adjective) presentation of their 'good' and 'just' behavior as much as I hate the Wardian presentation of how it takes no effort for them to overcome any obstacle. They would be really cool if we saw the immense struggle it was for them to get to where they are now. No, instead, we get "baby Hercules fell out of his crib and was attacked by a pair of snakes. Oh no! They lunge at him, but their fangs break on his impermeable skin and he strangles them with a gurgling baby-laugh, not understanding the danger. A decade passes, and now he's a teenager, able to take on empires single-handedly."

#2: I hate the noobs who play Tau and insist until they're blue in the face (no pun intended) that the Tau are akin to gods--a race that can do no wrong; an army of white knights, immune to chaos, and easily capable of conquering the galaxy.




Personally, I think the coolest way for the Tau to have been integrated into 40k would be if they were a vassal/slave race to the Kroot, who ruled them through infinitely greater numbers and control of higher technology (the Kroot have real warp engines, after all). JSJ Battlesuits and Non-LOS missiles don't mean anything if you're stuck on a planet.

The Ethereals would be real psykers, hidden from the Kroot because they represent the Tau's only chance at true independence (should they ever develop their own warp engines & Gellar Fields, they would need Ethereals to navigate through the warp). With the Tau's naturally low warp signature, the Ethereals would be about as rare among Tau as Blanks are among humans. This is why their presence on the battlefield motivates nearby firewarriors to fight so hard to protect them and why their death has such a devastating blow on the community/army. Each Ethereal would, in effect, generate the same amount of hope as a living incarnation of the Star Child. etcetc.

Farsight's Enclaves would be the largest portion of Tau who successfully freed themselves from Kroot oppression/control. Unfortunately, without access to Kroot warp drives, and with no Ethereals, they're effectively stuck in place simply fighting to survive and live out their way of life.

This makes them grimdark, while at the same time preserving a bit of their white knight status (they're struggling to obtain their freedom from slavery), and (as slaves) they're clearly not being handed everything on a silver platter.

Griffindale
24-02-2010, 05:12
I think they're kind of grimdark in that behind it all they actually are an oppressive manipulative culture. I believe I remember reading that they control the vespid through mind control helmets that are suppossedly used for communication or something like that? Ethereals have some pheremonal-esque effect. I remember reading one of the articles in Dawn of War: Dark Crusade describing the effects in one sector under Tau control. The Tau were making the human workers work in an old mining facility "For the Greater Good". Ofcourse, the facility was unsafe and unlivable with acid rain and horrible accidents every day. But hey, its for the Greater Good right? :shifty:

Firaxin
24-02-2010, 05:19
You pretty much have to read between the lines though, because it's never blatantly spelled out; there's only a lot of hearsay, rumors, hints, etc. Thus there's nothing you can use to smash the Tau-loving 'white knight' noobs, who will rightly say there's no hard proof.

Juggalo
24-02-2010, 05:30
I don't hate the Tau, per se.

In no particular order--

#1: I hate their designers and their writers, who ruined their potential. I hate the Wardian (yes, I just invented that adjective) presentation of their 'good' and 'just' behavior as much as I hate the Wardian presentation of how it takes no effort for them to overcome any obstacle. They would be really cool if we saw the immense struggle it was for them to get to where they are now. No, instead, we get "baby Hercules fell out of his crib and was attacked by a pair of snakes. Oh no! They lunge at him, but their fangs break on his impermeable skin and he strangles them with a gurgling baby-laugh, not understanding the danger. A decade passes, and now he's a teenager, able to take on empires single-handedly."


Matt "****head" Ward is the worst thing to happen to GW games since Tuomas Pirinen. Or maybe Gav Thorpe. Both those guys were tools, and I think Thorpe is still churning out "fiction" for BL.

Lord of Worms
24-02-2010, 05:33
Matt "****head" Ward is the worst thing to happen to GW games since Tuomas Pirinen.

Pirinen wasn't that bad. It's just a sad state that some goof they hired to help with LotR got repeatedly promoted because everybody good quit.

sabreu
24-02-2010, 05:33
tau just need a better motif and they would be alot better. Just havn't figured out a motif to fit them yet.

Captain_Trips01
24-02-2010, 05:39
Tau are not weeaboo in any significant way. The mecha designs are based on American mecha like Heavy Gear, not stuff like Gundam. Compare tau suits to Heavy Gear and then compare them to Gundam. You'll see what I mean. Tau are also grimdark enough to fit the setting. Admittedly, they are less obviously evil than other races, but the setting needs the Tau to show just how rediculously over-the-top grimdark everyone else is.

MetalGecko23
24-02-2010, 07:24
To me personally the tau were not very grimdark in their begining. Their fluff has evloved sense then though and they have pick up some moral grey, even if it does require you to think about it. The tau are starting to fit in now, because I have noticed a growing trend towards the not so grimdark. Look at the space marines, they used to be psycho zelot super killers and now they are paragons of humanity and shinning white knights that defeat the enemies of man. I mean I can barely find the moral grey areas of the marines in the new codex. Its just that there is like 20 years of grimdark fluff to over shadow the newer stuff. Even the imperial guard are slowly losing their grimdark. Now they are the joe everybody who is fighting to protect his people from the horrors of the galaxy. At this rate I suspect that the tau will be more grimdark than the imperial factions by the time their new codex comes out.
As for the "anime" look. Last time I saw a discussion on the anime thing a guy in japan showed a woman on the train next to him if a picture of a tau battlesuit looked anime, the woman's answer was no. So if a japanese person in japan doesn't think the tau look anime then their not anime. As for me I was watching anime before I started the tau and didn't think they looked anime at all, I liked the near future military look they had. Armies that do look anime are the space marines and eldar, which was what I thought when I first saw them.

Juggalo
24-02-2010, 08:32
Look at the space marines, they used to be psycho zelot super killers and now they are paragons of humanity and shinning white knights that defeat the enemies of man. I mean I can barely find the moral grey areas of the marines in the new codex.
That's mostly the Marysultramarines fluff, and it's yet another example of Matt Ward's utter failure as an author, a game designer, and in the opinion of some, a human being. :D


Even the imperial guard are slowly losing their grimdark. Now they are the joe everybody who is fighting to protect his people from the horrors of the galaxy.
That was always true. The Imperial Guard was always about everyday Joes fighting outrageous, fantastical enemies. The grimdark comes in the casual way their lives are expended by the billions, often for little to no reason, and in conflicts frequently completely unrelated to "their people". The other part of the grimdark is that an average Joe in the 40k universe is just as likely to be a hive ganger, pit gladiator, cannibal, savage jungle-warrior, mass-murdering convict, post-apocalyptic survivor, a combination of these things, or something else entirely different, as he is likely to be the spit'n'shine for crown and country good ol' boy soldier.


As for the "anime" look. Last time I saw a discussion on the anime thing a guy in japan showed a woman on the train next to him if a picture of a tau battlesuit looked anime, the woman's answer was no. So if a japanese person in japan doesn't think the tau look anime then their not anime.
Oh come on, everyone knows a woman's opinion doesn't matter, especially in Japan, and particularly on the subject of robots. :p

Shadey
24-02-2010, 09:08
I got no problem with Tau themselves, not to mention anyone who cant see the dark side of the tau isnt looking hard enough.

The problem I have is the inferiority complex when it comes to their close combat abilities, shared by many tau players as evidenced by the picture Dervos posted.

borithan
24-02-2010, 10:23
2. The original play style in 3rd edition was really annoying. Some of the game mechanics were just broken. Not being able to shoot at someone when they can shoot at you is cheesy. So GW didn't do them any favors with this.But then Eldar had been able to do exactly the same thing.


They are not democracies. They are constitutional republics or constitutional monarchies. There is a massive difference. Having a right to vote does not mean democracy.Collins defines a democracy as "government by the people or their elected representatives". The latter fits all Western Democracies to a greater or lesser extent. Democracy is not limited solely to Athenian style democracy.


Tau are the leftovers or unseen side-effects of the C'tan's genetic engineering,Introducing the C'Tan into yet another area of 40k's background would not be a good thing.


I mean obviously there are references in the look of some IG units and the "meatgrinder" way they are supposed to fight, but in ideological terms i've never really picked up on a marxism feel to the 40k universe.Oh, it is limited (largely) to references, rather than any attempt to have a "Marxist" grouping ideologically within the 40k universe. Its things like the Imperium's similarity in some areas to USSR, the Red Gobbo's and the like.


This is the definition of undemocratic (not "oppressive") because my vote might as well not count. Just because there are flaws in the system of electing representatives does not make a place undemocractic. It just makes it a flawed democracy.


Any society with "free and fair" elections ( US in this case), in a two party system with a president with a 20-30% approval rating has absolutely nothing to do with "Majority Rule".Democracy (at least in the modern, non Athenian sense) does not equal majority rule.


Personally, I think the coolest way for the Tau to have been integrated into 40k would be if they were a vassal/slave race to the Kroot,Most decidedly not keen on this idea.


This makes them grimdark,Don't really want more pointless grimdark, and even then, the Tau only appear "good" when you compare them to other 40k races. In the 19th century they would have been seen as another imperialistic power (not bad as such though), and nowadays would be viewed as a nation that was totally out of control and would have to be brought under control. They would be the bad guys of this world. Its just in 40k land, because they don't exterminate you as a matter of course, that they come across as "not dark".


I believe I remember reading that they control the vespid through mind control helmets that are suppossedly used for communication or something like that?That is a suggested theory. It is never said anywhere. The Tau couldn't communicate effectively with the Vespid leadership and it led to conflict. They then created communication helms and after that the Vespid came to accept the Tau. This could be due to the helmets controlling them, or it could just be that because the Vespid finally understood the Tau message they came to accept it. Or anything in between. Personally I would go for the Vespid realising that they could either gain by joining with the Tau freely, or face being conquered by them.


they used to be psycho zelot super killers and now they are paragons of humanity and shinning white knights that defeat the enemies of man.Well, that had been present since at least 2nd ed Ultramarines Codex, and possibly before. Space Marines haven't been barely controlled psychopaths for a long long time.

Brother Loki
24-02-2010, 16:23
they're supposedly this long range army, yet must get into the area where they're most vulnerable in order to pop off a few extra shots, and then, assault happens.

If it's done right, there should nothing left in range to assault. Decide what needs to die this turn - fish of fury it with 2 or 3 full firewarrior squads with markerlight support. 48-64 BS5 S5 shots should kill pretty much anything. Add in some battlesuits against harder targets. If necessary, charge lanes can be blocked by the devilfishes drones. Next turn jump back in the devilfish and zoom off, ready to do the same somewhere else.

Maximuspandem
24-02-2010, 17:52
So let me get this right.

People don’t like Tau mainly because of these

1- They are not Grim dark enough, I’m sorry but having skulls plastered all over your homes or tanks (or whatever) is not the only way to be Grim dark. I think the insidious and sneaky way the Tau can operate is rather Grim dark tbh.
Whispering in to some Governors ear slowly corrupting him/her over time plus there is always the stark reality that that Tau have a "join us or we will make you join us" mentality.

2- They are Space communists and or democratic/not a dictatorship ruled by a mad man and thusly do not fit in with the background of 40k.

Okay so first off they are NOT space communists, they have a whole section of their society dedicated to trade and commerce. They may not be ruled by one over aching dictator but they are ruled by a caste that are obeyed totally (farsight aside) which is just as bad if you ask me.

There caste system also feeds in to the fact that their society is very strictly ordered, if you are born in to a labour family then that is what you are going to do as well, tough if you don’t like it. Just because conditions might be slightly better than the average hive world it does not mean that the lack of social mobility is any less suffocating and "evil".

3- they look like anime robots/mecha and it does not fit in with the Grim dark of 40k.
Whilst this is ofc a personal opinion, i must say that whilst influenced by Asian mecha they are far more like western mecha than Asian, if anything they are perhaps a hybrid of both styles.
Again as for the Grim darkness the Eldar have smooth flowing lines and clean cut tech but no one would accuse them of not fitting with the overall feel of 40k

4- They are new and up and coming civilization and all of a sudden they are all over the place and seem to smash aside all and sundry.
Well it depends what source material you are quoting from. If it is a Tau source then yes they are on the rise and nothing can stop them, but in the SM codex the Ultramarines (who seem to get hate on just as much as the Tau) are throwing back the boundaries of the Tau empire and killing Tau like its going out of fashion.
Whilst I disagree that the size of the Tau Empire should not be over stated it is necessary for them to be placed in enough warzones so as to not exclude them from fighting any other army.

4.5 - they popped out of the ground with no background previous, and what background was ropey in the extreme.
So 40k should not evolve nor have new races added to it? I for one would like to see even more new races added; variety is a good thing IMO. As for their background i was always quite happy with the background.

Even more so when they explained why the Tau are so driven as a race, rather than some mumbo jumbo about being the last race of the ancients or some crap like that they made it a biological thing. although the only bit that was a cliché was the warp storms, as that is slightly over used by GW.

5 - Now this is the biggie; TAU PLAYERS.
So some Tau players see their army as "god like", this is just wrong but does not every army have these kind of people. Those who think that their army is better than every other. Some accuse many Tau players of being rules lawyers and always taking the letter of the law to the extreme.

Now as far as I can tell there is a very good reason for this (and i am a tau player and SM player BTW) the Tau army is very fragile one mistake and you will be punished, you do not have a 3+ save to hide behind or vast hordes of models to back you up ala nids or orks. So sometimes you must insist that the rules are applied as written simply to ensure that you don’t get rolled.

Deadnight
24-02-2010, 20:03
That's not kauyon, kauyon is typified by luring enemies in with a "bait" then destroying it in an ambush. That's just a fighting retreat.

the codex also refers to the absence of "bait" as a lure. tau will happily use locations (eg the mine) as a lure to draw in the enemy.
the ambush the tau perfromed was textbook kauyon. you're merely picking hairs. the ambush was designed to hurt the imperials as they sought to get a position, and when they got in close, the tau pulled out. does not seem the type of thing a short trange firefight army seems likely to do - surely they would be in their elements in the close up shooting match amongst the buildings? Hmm. tau werent. they buggered out - they'd done their damage.



Mont'ka is a storming action using overwhelming force to destroy an enemy position. It doesn't matter where you storm you will always need to get in close otherwise you can't force the enemy to move. A tau gunline plinking you from half a mile away will not force you to abandon you're position, you just dig in deeper and render that ineffective.

yet the codex also says they dont storm positions by choice either. and if they do, thry use kroot. it seems you're skimming the codex entries. as to @plinking@ thats bringing in this sniper idea which i refute.

tau use kroot to do the storming whilst they themselves offer long range support fire.


I guess the Tau codex is wrong on page 12 when it says: "The first involves bringing the prey to the hunters, the second involves the hunters running the prey to the ground; the former is Kauyon, the latter Mont'ka."
Obviously they must run the prey to the ground by standing completely still and bring the bringing the prey to the hunters must mean the hunters flee from the prey right!

you might also read the 'montka' and 'kauyon' sections instead of one sentence.
montka is a careful application of overehelming firepower in order to maximise enemy casualties. as to standing still, from my reading tau move to a positionm, hold it in order to make a kill, and then redeploy. they seem to stand still for the shooting part- they're not eldar! only the armour and crisis suits are designed to constantly fire on the move.

I
think you're being rather silly to assume tau don't care about ground at all. Even if they don't care about defending it to the death a Tau commander is not so stupid as to ignore the benefits provided by a commanding position on the battlefield. People take their lack of desire to defend to the death too far when they start assuming tau don't care about land at all. You can't fight a war where you are blind to the advantages and traits of terrain. A tau will not fight for a chest deep swamp the same way he will for a high ridge.

indeed. tau view ground as irrelevant in itself, but its useful as a position in order to make a kill - see above point. but its irrelevant to the debate since you're equating this, and montka to "charge and seize that hill!" see above point about the mine. the mine was useful as a lure in which to kill guardsmen, but the tau had no issues handing it to the imperials after.



The vast majority of fluff has tau striking with precision maneuvers not sitting back on some fortress firing away. The tau way of war is similar to the Eldar, not to a guard artillery company.

yet they use fortifications too. tau way of war is strategically mobile, in that they can redeploy forces quickly with orcas and mantas to flashpoints, but tactically (ie on the 40k battlefield, we'll say), they are no more mobile than the majority of other armies out there. tau way of war is often hit and run attacks, strikes, feints, lures etc. but they will strike and strike hard when they need to, just as they will wait to strike you when you try to engage them. montka and kauyon.




If you are under the impression marines do not storm buildings or spend all of their time at maximum range for fear of being anywhere near the enemy, and not caring about what sort of ground they hold you are very, very, wrong.

putting words into my mouth. tau are like marines in the sense they are badass grunts with top notch gear, and they like the word "firepower". tau have no problem storming buildings, but typically, they'll rely on kroot to do that kind of stuff, whilst the fire warriors hold a perimeter, and keep the enemy's heads down, and prevent reinforcements redeploying to strike parties (first battle at taros with avenging sons, battle at the water plant) indeed, against the avenging sons, the tau storming the imperial palace did appallingly bad! they learned from it, me thinks!
but tau do prefer "long range" firefights, and engaging at long range - its in black and white in the fluff.


_________________________________________________

furthermore, i will make this point. what is the point of making an in-close firefight army (as you claim tau are) when it is when they are in that precise situation that tau are most vulnerable? tau dont do well within 12". it does not make sense to say thats where they're supposed to excel as well...

Sceleris82
24-02-2010, 20:17
For me its their style, i really like the gritty/supernatureal 40k. A universe with gods magic, awsome combats,,it has style, kinda like the movie 300, its just awsome.

Tau for me are like,,,, the Jajabinx of 40k

ichbala
24-02-2010, 20:24
Banka Tau :D

Pink Horror
24-02-2010, 23:30
Okay so first off they are NOT space communists, they have a whole section of their society dedicated to trade and commerce. They may not be ruled by one over aching dictator but they are ruled by a caste that are obeyed totally (farsight aside) which is just as bad if you ask me.

There caste system also feeds in to the fact that their society is very strictly ordered, if you are born in to a labour family then that is what you are going to do as well, tough if you don’t like it. Just because conditions might be slightly better than the average hive world it does not mean that the lack of social mobility is any less suffocating and "evil".


I should comment, but I like where I live. :D

DDogwood
25-02-2010, 03:47
A few years ago, here in Canada a referendum failed to pass that would have made a portion of Parliament as being determined solely based on the popular vote.

No it didn't - there has never been a referendum on proportional representation for the Canadian federal government. You might be thinking of the referendum on electoral reform in BC.


This is the definition of undemocratic (not "oppressive") because my vote might as well not count.

Think about this - any system that relies on a majority vote means that the minority votes won't count. That doesn't make them undemocratic.


"Most accounts" of what people think democracy means is categorically incorrect. The definitions have changed due to the rhetoric of the times but that does not change what it is.

I think you're mistaken. You seem to be claiming that direct democracies are the only "real" democracies, but that's simply not accurate. A representative democracy, like Canada or the United States, is still a democracy - it's just not the kind of democracy you'd prefer.



Bloody tax-and-spend Orks! :mad:

Heh, I like it! I meant "liberal" in the sense of individual liberty, but da Bleedin' Hearts Tribe would be a good Ork army. They could carry around anti-globalization banners, drive vehicles built by bloated and inefficient gov-ar-mint programs, and protest the abuse of squigs by going around naked.

Lord of Worms
25-02-2010, 05:06
No it didn't - there has never been a referendum on proportional representation for the Canadian federal government. You might be thinking of the referendum on electoral reform in BC.

No, it was a provincial thing in ontario, I may have gotten confused because there were federal comittees looking into this and seeing this referendum as a pilot project. I have no idea what`s going on in BC.


Think about this - any system that relies on a majority vote means that the minority votes won't count. That doesn't make them undemocratic.
What`s your point? I don`t think you understand what I`m saying. If Iggy wasnt in my riding my vote may contribute to deciding what`s going on at Capital Hill.

My statement `undemocratic` being explicitly clarified as not being synonymous with oppression should have made this clear.

You are mistaking me, I dont care one way or another, and to be honest if you looked at an earlier post, I quoted Ben Franklin explicitly stating that Democracy was not synonymous with liberty. I`m not saying majority rule is better,in fact I think it`s worse than the garbage we have now. I just get sick of modern rhetoric perverting definitions so that what once meant one thing, now means the exact opposite.

Iron-Man
25-02-2010, 09:56
I feel tau just need an update. understand that they are only on their SECOND edition of there codex while save for the necron codex and DE codex, everyone else got shiny new toys and upgrades. look back and all the absalute nonesense and weird broken rules in the pasts books for other races. once their new codex is rewritten, their fluss will become more interesting. i think most people hate the tau right now simply because their army is practically useless at this moment. i mean geez you could make a tyranid list right now that would blow tau's pants off in shooting. speaking of tyranids, i nearly died laughing when i read the tau getting merced when they had a parade for the necrons saving them.....expanding your empire.$42. adding new aliens to your galactic french foreign legion.$67. getting vaporised by gauss weapons while thanking robots for saving your butt from a rapid mutating superpredator.PRICELESS.

borithan
25-02-2010, 10:10
I just get sick of modern rhetoric perverting definitions so that what once meant one thing, now means the exact opposite.Language and definitions change. Democratic has come to mean more than just majority rule. And that expanded definition includes those systems which are generally called "democracies".

Iron-Man
25-02-2010, 11:02
tau are not snipers. theyre US marines. badass grunts with kickass gear and excellent armour backing them up. in the "real" world, i'd expect them engaging at a few hundred metres or more, unless its tau armour which is often reported as engaging beyond visual range. In 40k terms, i would argue long range means engaging beyond 12" as a preference, rather than needing to get that close to be effective.

Lmao. lol I almosted died laughing when i read this. other than some notion of fire and maneuver, which was created more as a game play tactic than origenal fluff tactics, i fail to see how tau are in anyway shape or form like us marines. me being a marine in a special forces unit, i happen to know how they operate, and let me tell you that us marines are by far the most "in your face" force in the world. lol and btw marines have the oldest equipment in the us military. most of our crap is atleast 5 years old. get your facts straight mate :D

Pug Life
25-02-2010, 13:48
Tau player here. I'm shocked that this topic has churned out 12 pages.

sabreu
25-02-2010, 14:48
me being a marine in a special forces unit, i happen to know how they operate, and let me tell you that us marines are by far the most "in your face" force in the world.


As a former MP, I have to agree with you on this one. Any force that needs as much internal policing as the Marines do, is certainly rabid enough to qualify as "most in your face" in the world. God I love my fellow service men! :D

carl
25-02-2010, 14:59
This i think comes down to an argument of what:

"in your face"

Means.

For me it's the kind fo firefight ranges you'd expect t see n a lage scakle urban war. a few meters to a few tens of meters.

Long range would be a few hundred meters, and extreme range would be anthing over the half a KM mark.

So i think a clarification of terms is needed here.

Sorros
25-02-2010, 19:02
It has to do with the mech/anime-style technology, and the perceived 'happy communists" (which they arent?)

They aren't communist at all, and they have a join us or die horribly policy...not exactly a benevolent attitude. Also, there were rumours floating around regarding concentration camps...

I rather like the Tau. On a side note, how would Exodites react to the Tau...

Lord of Worms
25-02-2010, 19:06
They aren't communist at all, and they have a join us or die horribly policy...not exactly a benevolent attitude. Also, there were rumours floating around regarding concentration camps...

:rolleyes: Because the Soviets didn't have concentration camps, and people joined them voluntarily right?

enigma-96
25-02-2010, 19:31
Because the Soviets were so Communist right? :rolleyes:

Lord of Worms
25-02-2010, 19:32
Fine then, the Tau aren't Commies, they're "Stalinists". Does that fit your definition a bit better?

enigma-96
25-02-2010, 19:37
Well you're trying and I don't want to discourage you but Stalinist is still wrong... sorry hon ;), though it is more accurate than communist.
If anything the Tau are a blend of Faschism and Japanese Imperialism.

Lord of Worms
25-02-2010, 19:42
For all intents and purposes Jap. Imp. was fascism, but I don't see it. Not anymore than any other expansionist power would be, anyway.

enigma-96
25-02-2010, 19:58
Well I guess it depends on how each of us views community living and 'communist' style society.
For me the class structure of the Tau screams Japanese since, at least since the feudal era anyways, the Japanese have been strictly placed into such class roles and it has been ingrained in their culture that the class one is born into is the class that one will die in. Likewise Japanese society, speaking from an Imperial Japan and earlier seeing as the knowledge I have of current Japan is basically trivia, was very much about helping out the community and the country and putting the country's needs before their own, I.E. For the Greater Good. But I don't think anyone would go so far as to call the Japanese communist would they?

The Tau have an extreme class structure, community living, their empire is incredibly imperialistic, and they believe in racial superiority, yeah I'm not seeing the argument for them having any form of communism.

Gearhead
25-02-2010, 20:02
Tau player here. I'm shocked that this topic has churned out 12 pages.

Indeed. It just keeps popping back to the first page.

Tau are grimdark, they're just more subtle. Seems as though if people don't see it immediately then it doesn't exist. Then again, if people looked harder at Tau they'd see they aren't communist. A caste system is pretty far from Communisim.

edit:ninja'd

Plague.Monk
25-02-2010, 20:07
I created a monster . . .

PxDn Ninja
25-02-2010, 20:07
I personally like the Tau, and my roommate plays them. If Blood Angels weren't about to get their new Codex, I would consider playing them as my second army. (Necron being my primary).

Absolutionis
25-02-2010, 20:18
I rather like the Tau. On a side note, how would Exodites react to the Tau...
Tau says "Join us or die"
Exodites say "No"
Tau says "We appeal to the Japanophiles"
Exodites say "No, we are too proud and arrogant"
Tau says "We will kill you with guns"

...then Biel-Tan comes in and beats up the Tau. END!

---

Personally, I would prefer if the next Tau codex were to focus on Farsight. Farsight is actually an interesting character and has revealed the "dark" side of the Tau.
Overall, I would prefer if GW pushed the "eerie utopia" setting of the Tau more. Introduce the aspect of Tau preaching "good" and their propaganda is mind-numbing and the Ethereal Caste is really the mind-controlling structure that it is hinted to be.

As it stands, the Tau are just naive and it doesn't appeal.

Their technology level is about comparable to the Imperium, and their fighting tactics are similar to the Imperium in many ways, and even their indoctrination is focused around worship/subjugation to the Emperor/ethereals. The only thing that differs is that the Imperium has been around longer, it is bigger, and it doesn't have a plot shield protecting it.

The Tau plot-shield is annoying. Every other race has reason they have survived. They're either too numerous (Imperium, Orks, Tyranids, Daemons) or have a place/means to escape (Eldar, Chaos, Necrons) or some other gimmick (Eldar farseers, Necron teleportation, Daemon spawning). Tau have none of this. If any race cared enough to destroy the Tau, the Tau would be gone. Tau are small and they reside on planets and their expansion is really slow.

Every instance of the Tau surviving is because someone got distracted (Imperium withdrew in IA) or the force wasn't big enough (Tyranid Splinter fleet). Most races from Necrons to Eldar to Chaos really don't CARE about the Tau.

I dislike Tau.

enigma-96
25-02-2010, 20:53
Tau AREN'T on equal technological footing with the Imperium they are far far more advanced than all but the most elite cadre of Techpriests on Mars which is one of the key reasons why they do so well.

Yes they have plot armor, 'cuz every other race doesn't :rolleyes:, but it's their extreme tech advantage that allows that armor to at least be plausible in the first place. If they had Imperium level tech then their plot armor would be the most ridiculous thing ever conceived by GW, this includes Malan'tai, but they don't have Imp tech, they have better and thus have been able to hold on to the meagre empire that they have.

Besides the Tau are constantly getting pwned in newer books due to how small their empire is, which is pretty believable if you ask me, so I really don't see why people keep coming back to their plot armor as being any more ridiculous than any other races, quite frankly it's a stupid argument since it only works if taken out of context of all the other races fluff.

jesusjohn
25-02-2010, 20:59
I think one of the problems is that the Tau are quite subtle, I love them. They are grimer and darker than most things in the 40k universe. They have taken everthing bad about imperilism, modern interventionist policy, various political movements and candy coated it. They are a sci fi race in a universe that dosn't care about them, they are arch manipulators and for they are a dynamic race. They are a lot of fun and in the 'grimdark' 'adult' 40k universe ('adult' in the same way Gears of war is 'adult'...) it's nice to see something different... seriously does it have to have skulls to make it dark? or dealing with cultural absorbtion and the idea of converstion through trade and diplomacy until you are one of them hold more darker themes (and maybe more relevent to a modern world?).

Just rambling thoughts.

sabreu
25-02-2010, 21:04
Tau AREN'T on equal technological footing with the Imperium they are far far more advanced than all but the most elite cadre of Techpriests on Mars which is one of the key reasons why they do so well.

Actually, Imperial tech is miles ahead of the Tau, who by the way are playing a huge catch up game. The only true strength the Tau have is they understand their tech, and will prove extremely powerful if they can progress long enough to get to imperial levels.

arachnid
25-02-2010, 22:26
For some reason, the tau are like sleepers (the cars not the movie), capable of quick technological advances and will prove a force to be reckoned with in a short amount of time.

In the fluff the eldar first found nothing of worth on the tau planet, next time they looked, there were sapient lifeforms.
Another blink of an eye and the tau were united and gearing up for war in spacefaring vessels.
Humanity has already past it's prime, the tau haven't touched theirs yet.
Unhindered by superstition and the stigma of innovation that humans cling to, the tau will likely progress beyond imperial tech in short order.

Thus , in a relatively short amount of time, the tau have become a factor in the powerstruggle.

I suppose that's why they aren't that well liked, they appeared out of nowhere, both fluff- and gamewise.

If they clean the 'dex up, progress the tau another step on their evolution, some new models here and there they would be fine again.

carl
25-02-2010, 22:37
Actually, Imperial tech is miles ahead of the Tau, who by the way are playing a huge catch up game. The only true strength the Tau have is they understand their tech, and will prove extremely powerful if they can progress long enough to get to imperial levels.

So your trying to say a race with the production capacity and tech base to deploy a basic rifle, and ransport that is several generatioons ahead of the best equivelents in the IoM armies is worse.

right what have you been smoking.

Yes the IoM has some better tech in area's of certian large units like titans and starships. Bu then Tau never expected to need titan grade ships and their first generation of space vessals whern't built for combat. It's like saying an Abrahams is a better MBT than a mini. Your talking about 2 things, one of which was designed for war. one of which was not.

When you get down to any tech the tau have had in mass production on a regular basis the IoM keeps geting left behind over and over. Hell the Manta through it's sheer mass producability and capability to carry it's own organic support in addittion to warlord grade firepower and fly and fight in space makes the actual oM Warlord look pretty pants in comparision despite it being an emergency use of the design for a purpose it was never meant to fufil. Now think what will happen when the tau develop a dedicated Ground heavy of the same size...

Noserenda
25-02-2010, 22:56
Jesus wept, theres a giant epic thread of "debate" about Imperial v Tau tech on the background forum, please go waste your breath there...

Personally theres not much more then friendly **** taking round these parts, but then theres not many Tau either :shifty:

Deadnight
25-02-2010, 23:01
im a tau fan, yet i will also admit that imperial tech is still, in many ways, light years ahead of the tau in many areas.

Some areas of imperial technology (or techno sorcery) such as what is warp or psionic related is in an area unknown to the tau.

In others, for example, the imperial fleet, and BFG stuff in general, yet again, thehumans are far in advance of the tau. And thats not dissing the tau! in the space of a very short length of time, they've gone from having a fleet that was sub-orkoid in terms of ability and technology to sub imperial, and having imperials worried by their advancing tech.

tau would generally have better looking, more efficent, and cleaner lower and medim end technology, whereas with the imperials, the bigger (and more ancient) the more advanced and beyond-tau it is....

that said, tau have mastered anti grav. they've got all them drones flitting around the place. and anti-grav is one area the humans dont really do all that well...

tau generally understand their tech - that is the difference. it looks clean nice. the imperials have all this bio-connected lunacy, and pipes and gears, prayers and wotzits all connected, but thatshould not take away from how cool it is.

carl
25-02-2010, 23:13
@Noserenda: Sorry i didn't realise about that thread. i'll try to keep this next bit short.

@Deadnight: i never said the IoM had no advantages,. But it's clear in several area's, (Plasma, Missiles, AI, and Anti-Grav to name a few), the Tau are way ahead of the IoM.

To be fair there's a lot of Apples to Oranges going on in Tau vs. IoM Tech. But if you look at their stats, (assuming they represent general capabilities), and cross referance that with flfuf for accurracy checks, and it becomes clear that the level of tech they can equip basic troopers and tanks, as well as elite troops and tanks far outstrips that of the IoM for even their SM's.

On the other hand there's no question the IoM currently has major advantages in area's of Titans, Starships, and general Warp Tech. However these are all area's the Tau have littile expiriance in and that the IoM is steadilly losing knowlage of. Ultimetly the pendulem will swing towards the au in very short order. And for the purposes of general terms, i view that base level battlefeild tech as the better yardstick.

If otgher wish to use a diffrent yardstick thats fine. But thats what produces any variables between Tau and the IoM. Where you take your meashuring point.

Draconis
25-02-2010, 23:32
In the fluff it was the Empire that found their planet, not the eldar. Then the warpstorm, then they came back some time later (hundreds or thousands of years later, cant remember) and they had advanced as a civilization on an unknown level. I personally love the Tau. They were my first major army. The only real complaint I have bout them are their models. I like their infantry, but hate the way their crisis/xv88 suits look. The vehicles look alright, but as you all know, gw "borrowed" most of their vehicles and infantry from other games/information. And as for their fluff, I think it fits perfectly in the 40k universe. 1. They are their own race and have evolved in their own way. They are going to be different. 2. Its a nice change from all the other races that, although are different, kinda have the same gothic/survivalist fluff

sabreu
26-02-2010, 00:25
@Deadnight: i never said the IoM had no advantages,. But it's clear in several area's, (Plasma, Missiles, AI, and Anti-Grav to name a few), the Tau are way ahead of the IoM.

IoM uses Plasma to far greater capabilities, AI is banned due to the Iron Men betraying their ancestors (abominable intelligence), and Anti-Grav is widely used in the IoM, far more than the Tau. Servo-skulls, Cherubim, vehicles - military and civilian usage, etc. Tau's smallest anti-grav device is incredibly bulky compared to the compact servo-skull!


To be fair there's a lot of Apples to Oranges going on in Tau vs. IoM Tech. But if you look at their stats, (assuming they represent general capabilities), and cross referance that with flfuf for accurracy checks, and it becomes clear that the level of tech they can equip basic troopers and tanks, as well as elite troops and tanks far outstrips that of the IoM for even their SM's.

They have some good tech, that's for sure, but they also have a relatively small empire in the galaxy. The logistical needs to supply the Tau's entire military population (the Fire Caste) is roughly equivelant to just a few battlegroups of the Imperial Guard. According to the background, Lasguns are powerful, reliable weapons that can be recharged via sunlight or throwing your magazine into a fire. Let's see a Tau firewarrior try that with his pulse rifle when it runs out of juice.


On the other hand there's no question the IoM currently has major advantages in area's of Titans, Starships, and general Warp Tech. However these are all area's the Tau have littile expiriance in and that the IoM is steadilly losing knowlage of. Ultimetly the pendulem will swing towards the au in very short order. And for the purposes of general terms, i view that base level battlefeild tech as the better yardstick.

Every battle field the IoM and Tau have clashed against each other, the IoM has sent half of a half-hearted effort. But I digress. The IoM more advanced tech stretches far more in the battlefield and in civilian use than the Tau. The IoM have pocket sized forcefields (Rosarius'), Displacer fields integrated into Flak/carapace armor, Digital weapons that are as effective as real ones, Mind impulse units, Gauntlets that rip tanks apart (powerfists), Bionic replacements for lost limbs that can be indistinguishable from real limbs (although, the Tech-priests favor more machiny looking things), Cyberization of human life (Arco-flaggalation, Servitors, etc), Hive Cities, Terra-forming, etc, etc. In the short, It will take the Tau about 20,000 years more to go before they are close to being on equal footing.


If other wish to use a diffrent yardstick thats fine. But thats what produces any variables between Tau and the IoM. Where you take your meashuring point.

The setting is the yard stick. Use it to it's full potential. ;)

enigma-96
26-02-2010, 01:42
The main problem with the tech argument is that people are using too many different measurements for the same topic, I.E. no one is defining their terms. (In psych that is equivocal to an auto failure by the way ;) )

Sabreu you mention the Lasgun as being mass produceable and very reliable, but does that make it more advanced? The AK line of guns is considered our the most mass produceable and reliable gun in existance but if I were to go up to someone who knew anything about guns and asked them if it was the most technologically advanced weapon we had, they would give me a resounding 'NO', and probably kick my @$$ too for even suggesting such a thing ;)

Likewise the other problem with the argument is that people are assuming Industrial Capacity and Technological level are the same thing, their not. Yes the IoM can outproduce the Tau but that's because they're so much bigger and have so many more worlds than the Tau do and thus have the capacity to build more, but this doesn't mean that they have better tech than the Tau. If both empires were too suddenly become the same size, up or down doesn't matter, the Tau would have general tech that was far and a way better than anything the Imperium could have. The only saving grace for the Imperium is that they went the German route technologically and decided that they would rather have big ticket items that were super advanced instead of having a more even tech distribution.

* One last thing, sorry Sabreu not meaning to pick on ya just trying to make a point, but the Servo Skull anti-grav argument holds no grain of salt to the Gun Drone's anti-grav since one neither carries weapons nor gear of any appreciable value and as such its grav only needs to keep the skull up whereas the drone's grav has to account for big weapons load out, shock absorbtion from weapons fire, and has to carry other devices that are immediately important to the battle at hand, thus the drone's anti-grav is superior, hell if the tau wanted to waste their time making small useless droids, lol C3PO, they probably could but then again they are a sensible race. Hmmmmm I see why the Tau never caught on, they were just too sensible :D

sabreu
26-02-2010, 02:38
Sabreu you mention the Lasgun as being mass produceable and very reliable, but does that make it more advanced? The AK line of guns is considered our the most mass produceable and reliable gun in existance but if I were to go up to someone who knew anything about guns and asked them if it was the most technologically advanced weapon we had, they would give me a resounding 'NO', and probably kick my @$$ too for even suggesting such a thing ;)

I actually didn't really mention the mass produceable aspect of the lasgun if you look back mate. My focus was entirely on the fact it is a reliable, powerful weapon that can be recharged with amazing ease and can be super-charged in the thick of the fight. Very advanced if you think about that:)


Likewise the other problem with the argument is that people are assuming Industrial Capacity and Technological level are the same thing, their not...

No one really assumed that, it's just that it has a direct effect on how much stuff can be distributed amongst your rank and file troops, especially potent but hard to make weapons.


* One last thing, sorry Sabreu not meaning to pick on ya just trying to make a point, but the Servo Skull anti-grav argument holds no grain of salt to the Gun Drone's anti-grav since one neither carries weapons nor gear of any appreciable value and as such its grav only needs to keep the skull up whereas the drone's grav has to account for big weapons load out, shock absorbtion from weapons fire, and has to carry other devices that are immediately important to the battle at hand, thus the drone's anti-grav is superior, hell if the tau wanted to waste their time making small useless droids, lol C3PO, they probably could but then again they are a sensible race. Hmmmmm I see why the Tau never caught on, they were just too sensible :D

Actually....servo-skulls are commonly fitted with las-weapons or other nasties. In 40k, they have close combat weapons in a Daemonhunter army list, and in Inquisitor they have small arms embedded in them. :p

On that note, feel free to debate with me more. It's productive and fun. :D