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Jack of Blades
21-02-2010, 08:47
First of all don't complain about how DoC should be nerfed below the ground or whatever in this thread.

Really, I just tried making an army list of them. Using an unmarked level 2 wizard DP along with a max gifted Herald of Tzeentch cost me 625 points in characters. I then went on to core and filled it with a juiced unit of 30 Horrors along with 2x6 Furies and 2x15 more Horrors. The special slots were occupied by 5 Nurgling Swarms and 5 Seekers while 6 Bloodcrushers made up a rare slot. This is in a 2250 point army.

To me this seems incredibly dull as you don't really have any fun toys to use, just a lot of stuff that ignore the psychology phase and either spam spells (Horrors), occupy something hard-hitting (Nurglings), take out small, annoying stuff (Furies & Seekers) or destroy what they manage to charge (Bloodcrushers).

But they're all Daemons. They're all, well you know... it'd be like making an army out of various spawning of Saurus as well as Kroxigors & Stegadons.

So, how fun are ''balanced'' DoC? does it get dull after a bunch of games?

Jind_Singh
21-02-2010, 08:57
mmm, depends. I kept changing and changing the lists until i finally came up with the following:

deamon prince of khorne
3 heralds, juggers, but no firestorm blade but they had armour. The bsb had the D3 combat res bannor
3 big units of bloodletters, full command, always march icon
6 furies
5 fleshounds
3 blood crushers

and it was cool - i had to really play them hard to get results, my opponents loved them, and the list was smacked around by most of my gaming friends - though I was able to put up a fight.

If i was to play DoC again (they are in boxes under the bed, all 11,000 pts of them :() i would use the same list - as it allows me to challange myself and others also have fun with it.

But its tough making getting that balance!

Jind_Singh
21-02-2010, 08:58
and after a while it will get dull as theres not that many 'balanced' lists to choose from, so you'd be stuck with same army/play style after a while

Condottiere
21-02-2010, 09:15
Playing against any Daemon list is just a chore, you do it because you have to, not because you want to.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
21-02-2010, 10:13
you do it because you have to, not because you want to.

...that's what she said :eek:

I agree with the sentiment, though. Not particularly fun. My orcs prefer to smash in skulls that don't dissipate into the aethyr. Rather, they like to make it to the enemy battle line without being incinerated and hounded.

Solasun
21-02-2010, 17:27
Playing against any Daemon list is just a chore, you do it because you have to, not because you want to.

I could say the same for just about any 'beardy' list in the game. I've had *mutual* fun at 500 points playing Daemons and it's nice to have an army that doesn't melt in the face of the enemy ala my Ogres.

Jack of Blades
21-02-2010, 17:44
So basically, from the replies I've got the concensus seems to be that Daemons aren't fun to play with or against. Well that's not much of a shocker really. The army simply isn't flexible enough... it's just different versions of the same things over and over again. Plaguebearers, daemonettes, bloodletters, horrors - they're really just the same thing. And to fill out your special choices, you have more of the same thing... except that these are slightly different. Then the rare choices are again more of the same, but a bit different.

What a waste of an army book.

Solasun
21-02-2010, 18:29
I wouldn't say that it's a wasted book; however I'd say it's one that scales very very well and that certain 'themes' can take it over the top (Oh, hello mono-Slaanesh leadership bombing) but that's not to say you're unable to have fun with it. Try looking at older rulings like how the Chaos Gods are adversaries to each other or aim for a list that might appear at a certain time during a demonic incursion (I've certainly done this to great effect with the new Tyranid codex.) The book is what you make of it and if you're not willing to put something of yourself into it then yes, then you're more likely to run into "waste of an army book."

Jind_Singh
21-02-2010, 18:40
yeah, to say no one cant have playing against DoC is not correct - like i said when I ran mono-lists of slaanesh and khorne everyone liked them - as i took single fleshounds, bloodcrushers, no spell breaker, and for slaanesh no leadership reducing items/characters, no keeper of secrets - and all armies need to be led by a fully priced prince - the prince really is a points sink and one of the more wasted options in the book so people love seeing a prince on the table!
but a balanced list makes for a close and exciting game - so i still say keep your mind flexible and your options open - others will enjoy the game, dont give up!

theunwantedbeing
21-02-2010, 19:11
Balanced fun to play DoC do exist.
It just requires effort to achieve.

You can even include flamers, flesh hounds and a blood thirster to get a balanced fun list.
It takes a good deal of thought to the list of course.

You basically are ignoring the power combo's when you make that balanced fun list.
Most people have to become long time veterans before they realise this sadly :(

kaubin
21-02-2010, 19:32
I enjoy playing a good and balanced Daemons army, and they look fun to play. If I were to pick up Daemons, the funnest build to me looks like mono Slaanesh, it`s very aggressive without being frustratingly tough. You might want to leave the greater daemon at home though.

Bodysnatcher
21-02-2010, 19:37
I play mono-Tzeentch.
I don't use Kairos
I do use the bluescribes because:
1. I've made a cool conversion for them.
2. It's a very flavourful thing to throw an enemies magic back at him.
3. The randomness is hilarious.
I don't currently use flamers.
I use the changeling because:
1. Cool conversion again.
2. Hilarity from combats is amusing for both sides.
I keep my horror units large - I despise the multiple units of 10 horrors army.
I take 1 Herald.

The army is great fun to play with and I hope my opponents enjoy playing it - it has to engage or get close to be effective so it's not a gunline or no-touch army, fighting actually happens.

happy_doctor
21-02-2010, 19:38
Challenge accepted! Here's a 2250 point army that can perform decently and seems like fun to play with/against:

HEROES
-Daemon Prince, Undivided, Lvl 1, Winged Horror, Iredescent Corona, Enrapturing Gaze
-Herald of Tzeentch, BSB

CORE
-12 Daemonettes, Full Command
-12 Daemonettes, Full Command, Siren Standard
-27 Horrors, Full Command, Icon of Sorcery
-10 Furies
-10 Furies

SPECIAL
-6 Screamers of Tzeentch
-6 Seekers of Slaanesh, Full Command
-6 Seekers of Slaanesh, Standard, Musician

RARE
-3 Flamers of Tzeentch
-2 Fiends of Slaanesh

Total: 2249 points

Mind you, it is still a hard army, but not UKGT hard.
The list has speed (only horrors get left behind, but they can still blast away with magic), decent magic output (8 power dice) and combat capability in the form of daemonettes, daemon prince and the fiends.

Just like theunwantedbeing pointed out, daemons take some work to make them balanced and fun. For example: Lvl3 horrors are brutal, since they get +2 dispel dice and the bolt of change. If, however, you keep them close to their lvl2 limit, a skilled opponent will have a chance to drop them to lvl2 and limit their potential. The same applies to flamers: 3 are hardly terrifying, though they can still make their points back.

So, did this help?

enyoss
21-02-2010, 20:00
I think that Daemons can be just as fun to play with and against as any other army. It just requires the user to show some restraint and not be a tool.

When I first started designing a list I really tried to hamstring myself. Then I realized that as long as I was aware of the pitfalls of the list (e.g. inadvertently taking three Siren Songs and the Mask for example) there was lots of room for manoeuvre.

One of the lists I started out with is here http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236658. After hearing all the Daemon hate I was really nervous about getting it right, but am a lot more relaxed about it now :D.

Rogzor87
22-02-2010, 03:18
I Been playing Daemons and my Opponents and I never have complained about them being Overpowerd ever. I also don't take rediculous things.

My general 2k Lists are comprised of about

1 Herald of Khorne
1 Herald of Slaanesh
1 Masque
1 Skulltaker

10 Bloodletters
2 blocks of 20 Daemonettes

5x Nurglings

3x Flamers

I win and lose. but its more like 60/40.

I do have other Models. I just don't use them in Casual Games. Maybe If i plan on winning a Tourney I pull them out but other then that. i keep them put away because taking auto win lists just isn't fun for me or my opponents.

reynor
22-02-2010, 03:24
Rogzor87 -- that seems a little short of 2k. Am I missing something?

Overall, I'm glad to know Daemons can be balanced.

Rogzor87
22-02-2010, 03:36
Yeah it is short. Its just what i remember from the top of my head. I haven't played Daemons in awhile. I switched to WoC and then Skaven.

What I listed. is Pretty much My Always and I will mix in other things to fill in the Rest when I did casual Fun games. I also Do themed games with them alot too... Going All Nurgle or Khorne or Slaanesh. But uusally 50% of my Army is Always Core... I rarely Go Tzeentch Because I'm not a huge fan of magic and how magic can win games on its own.

I do Play them Seldomly. But I am having much more fun with my Blocks of my Warriors and Skaven Running around.

reynor
22-02-2010, 04:21
I like the core models best for Daemons of Chaos -- especially Khorne and Slaanesh.

The core troops in Daemons aren't super tough. They're good, but not super tough.

Jind_Singh, I like your Khorne list due to the way it would look on the tabletop. And I like combat the most of any aspect of the game.

I played my Daemon list the other day and it wasn't too tough:

Herald of Khorne, Etherblade
Herald of Tzeentch, Flying
10 Plaguebearers, Full Command
10 Bloodletters, Full Command
10 Pink Horrors, Full Command, Banner of Change
2x10 Daemonettes, Full Command
5 Seekers of Slaanesh

1250-ish

It was a doubles game. I teamed with Screamng Bell Skaven vs. new Beastmen. We lost horribly.

I almost always lost combat versus units of three Minotaurs. They are monsters. Daemonic instability is weird. For some reason I don't enjoy it as much as normal Combat Rez calculation.

Rogzor87
22-02-2010, 04:30
I need to spend some money and update my Daemonettes. I got the 5th edition Crab claw ones ): I use the 5th edition Blood letter for my Herald and have the current Bloodletters for my Unit

But yes. Daemons can be Balanced and very fun. They can win or lose.

Really the people who ruin daemons for others are the Powergamers who just spam the best to win not thinking about how it will actually react in the end that NO ONE will ever want to play against them again. Thats why I generally Play Balanced lists or Themed and i almost always spend 50% or more in core.

Bloodletters = hit hard but not tough
Daemonettes = Lots of attacks, ASF, s/t 3... can't take on big things and can't take hits either
Plaguebearers = they are the toughest, but don't do much dmg. they pretty much are stallers
Horrors = Weak little wizard block. I don't like them and i don't use them.

So when most your army is Core. Even if you try to spam something. It will still be hard to win because the Core are not rediculous. but they look good!.

JayC707
22-02-2010, 06:38
Playing against any Daemon list is just a chore, you do it because you have to, not because you want to.

QFT. :chrome:

Devil Tree
22-02-2010, 07:02
Balance issues aside, I generally find armies that donít use psychology (VC, TK, DoC) to be rather boring to play with or against. They just donít act like a semi-real army would. They donít run away when beaten or use clever bait/flee maneuvers, they either win combat or crumble like wet animal crackers. And when you add the fear/terror mechanic you tend to get the worse of both worlds. I used to play 6th edition VC but gave up on them because they werenít fun to play with anymore.

reynor
22-02-2010, 07:23
Psychology is a very critical component of Warhammer. I've only played my daemons twice. Won the first time. Lost the second. I didn't have fun either time.

Why? Because Warhammer is all about combat. Sure, shooting is fun (often devastating), magic is cool. But combat (and movement) is what Warhammer is all about. At least for me. The thrill of baiting and fleeing, the wonderful feel of getting stuck in combat, staying, and catching flanks the next round...

With ItP you can't bait and flee. You watch your units dissolve slowly, making the game boring. I'd rather break and run. If you get run down you don't have to watch your unit wittle its life away for three turns. If you escape -- aye -- there's the thrill.

And what good are Fast Cav that are immune to psychology? Seekers of Slaanesh? They're fast as heck. But you can't do much but charge into combat with them.

When I play my Daemons I don't feel like I am playing Warhammer. I feel like I'm playing Halfhammer, because they ignore half the rules.

ChaosVC
22-02-2010, 09:01
You know, standing on one foot and balancing a keeper of secrets on the right hand while the skull taker on the other can be quite fun until one of them drops...

Rogzor87
22-02-2010, 09:14
Yeah Balancing some of the stuff was hard. my Keeper of Secrets took forever.

But as the starter of the thread stated. This is to say if BALANCED DoC are fun.

IMO they are. I been playing Daemons since the Storm of Chaos book and I will continue to do so because As long as you actually make a Balanced list. They are fun to me. Yeah they skip out on alot of the rules being Immune to Panic, But you still have to worry about some things.

Vermin-thing
22-02-2010, 09:15
WHEN they do redo the army book, I hope for all armies sake that they nurf-bat the heros/lords into the dirt, and add gifts to the units. I mean unlike other armies the generic warriors can, and should, be changed, and morphed so that it's not just 20 plague bear-ers, 2 X 10 bloodletters, 15 daemonettes, and 30+ horrors.

Try making an army without any banners/gifts and you'd be surprised how different it is compared to armies with them.

Lets see,

You got your unit of 10 bloodletters. They can take command/magic banner as normal, but in addition they would have access to gifts.
You would buy the champion which would give you 25 points for no characters, 50 points for a hero, and 100 points for a lord.
These values would not be stackable meaning that if you had three characters in the unit, you'd only get 50 points for one hero, and 100 points for one lord. This would stop deathstars.

So for bloodletters they could have:

25 points: +1 attack.
15 points: +1 move.
20 points: MR (2).
35 points: 5+ armor.
50 points: frenzy, re-roll failed rolls to wound.
55 points: 3+ ward save.
70 points: two ranks may attack as long as they are not flanked.

Bladelord
22-02-2010, 09:22
A friend of mine used a Daemon list, something like this (1999pts):

herald of Khorne, Jugger, re-roll to wound & firestorm blade/armour of khorne.
herald of Khorne, Jugger, re-roll to wound & firestorm blade/armour of khorne.
herald of Khorne, BSB, Jugger, re-roll to wound & firestorm blade/armour of khorne, stubbron banner.

15 Bloodletters, FC, +D6'' 1st charge.
15 Bloodletters, FC, +D6'' 1st charge.
15 Bloodletters, FC, +D6'' 1st charge.

6 Fleshhounds.
6 Fleshhounds.
6 Fleshhounds.
(maybe a 4th unit)

His Heralds got shot in the face by cannons etc, so maybe that's a balancd list?

Rogzor87
22-02-2010, 09:38
Maybe I play generally with Normal Rules and don't take the same magical items/Daemonic Items more then once. Like that Banner you took for your Bloodletters.

Falkman
22-02-2010, 09:55
A friend of mine used a Daemon list, something like this (1999pts):

herald of Khorne, Jugger, re-roll to wound & firestorm blade/armour of khorne.
herald of Khorne, Jugger, re-roll to wound & firestorm blade/armour of khorne.
herald of Khorne, BSB, Jugger, re-roll to wound & firestorm blade/armour of khorne, stubbron banner.

15 Bloodletters, FC, +D6'' 1st charge.
15 Bloodletters, FC, +D6'' 1st charge.
15 Bloodletters, FC, +D6'' 1st charge.

6 Fleshhounds.
6 Fleshhounds.
6 Fleshhounds.
(maybe a 4th unit)

His Heralds got shot in the face by cannons etc, so maybe that's a balancd list?
That is an incredibly lame list, I wouldn't have fun at all playing with or against that.

That being said Daemons can be made fun, you just need to put a bit more effort into it than most other armies in the game.
I have a pretty balanced Slaanesh/Tzeentch written up that I play from time to time, and I haven't gotten any complaints about it.

reynor
22-02-2010, 10:21
After reading through this post and playing with my paltry daemons, I'm convinced they can be fun to play against. I've had an okay time playing them.

At least there isn't that sinking feeling you get when someone runs down a unit of models you spent two weeks painting. At least your models each get to see a little fight time...

I have yet to play AGAINST a daemon list. So maybe I'll change my mind.

Rogzor87
22-02-2010, 10:23
Well just hope your first game against them isn't against one of the Over powered Spammer's

Jack of Blades
22-02-2010, 12:38
All right then, so what is broken? I have a fair idea of what's lame, like the list posted several posts above, but I still don't really know what exactly is so broken. Assume that the points value is 2250-2999.

Falkman
22-02-2010, 13:44
Things that I believe are way too good in the Daemon army:

Obsidian armour (especially on a Bloodthirster)
Firestorm blade
Noxious vapours
Siren song
Armour of Khorne (if used by Heralds on Juggernauts)
Slime trail
Standard of Chaos glory
Banner of Hellfire
Great icon of Despair
Siren standard

Flesh hounds
Flamers of Tzeentch

Worth noting is that special characters are banned at pretty much every event here in Sweden, so I have not included them on the list.

Now I've made quite a big list, but I believe that even though all of the stuff here is way too good, I don't think people have to refrain from taking all of it.
As long as you take the stuff on this list in moderation (no spamming of units/gifts) and only use a few of the things listed in their armies, I think things are pretty fine.
My own Daemon army only uses a Siren standard and 3 Flamers from that list, but I think including 1-2 more things wouldn't unbalance it too much.

Bodysnatcher
22-02-2010, 18:37
The only thing on that list I take is the banner of hellfire.
It's balancing effect is the fact it gets off only occasionally, but when it does it devastates. The 100pts cost makes it pretty fair in my opinion.

Lord Inquisitor
22-02-2010, 18:49
Here's my "friendly" DoC list.

Keeper of Secrets (level 4)
Herald (chariot, level 1)
Herald (foot, level 1)
Herald (on steed with BSB)

15 Daemonettes (FC)
15 Daemonettes (FC)
10 daemonettes (FC)
5 Furies

7 Seekers (FC)
6 Seekers (FC)
5 Seekers (FC)

3 Fiends

So pure-Slaanesh, and there are zero gifts or daemonic icons. It plays well but not unbeatably - it's all speed and without the usual Ld bomb it needs to do damage with those S3 daemonettes to do well.

Would this be considered "fun" for a daemonic list?

larabic
22-02-2010, 19:09
I started a mono khorne list back before the split... then Converted to demons and sold off the mortal parts i had bought. The reason i started mono khorne was because i had some good ideas for converting, really wanted to paint the new models. Sorry they aren't the best to play against but you can't blame the player just for playing any Demon list, they did pay for the models after all.

If it was up to me i would take out all fearless armies (DoC, TK, and VC) from the game. Playing an army that throws away a third of the rulebook never sat right with me.

Pacorko
22-02-2010, 19:51
Thing is with DoC is very difficult to "balance". As you pointed out on your list you have just a lot of stuff that ignore the psychology phase--which nullyfies your opponent's monsters or heavy hitters---and either spam spells (Horrors)--which, by and large, is INCREDIBLY UNBALANCED and bore no matter whose army is doing it--, occupy something hard-hitting (Nurglings)--speed bumps are many people's petpeeves and not really an "unbalancing" factor--, take out small, annoying stuff (Furies & Seekers)--bothersome but no real reason for anyone to whine about--or destroy what they manage to charge (Bloodcrushers)--again, bothersome and a bit unbalanced as they are undercosted, by hey! I know I can and have take them.

So, no. You list is not really "balanced". You just left out many things that might have made it quite over-the-top, but what you've got gives you a bigger chance to plan some tactics and make important decisions... that alone should be fun enough.

Unless you want to totally smash your opponent by Turn 2, I don't see why you don't think your list would be fun to play.

And anyone who doesn't like to play against DoC "just 'cause it's DoC", well... I can understand some of the rationale behind this, but c'mon! Daemons can be beat in either system. It just take a bit more effort* to pull it off.

*On the "victim's" side. I still believe DoC armies are mainly "just push minis, then roll dice" affairs. Not really challenging to play at all.

Jack of Blades
22-02-2010, 20:00
If Immune to Psychology is what bothers you, just remove it when you're not in a tournament or something :)

reynor
22-02-2010, 20:10
I think the new version of Daemonic Instability is just unfun.

The old version goes like this.

After combat resolution, if the Daemons lose, they take a leadership test based on their unmodified leadership (Ld 8 at the time). If they fail, *poof* the entire unit goes back to the Realm of Chaos.

Jind_Singh
22-02-2010, 20:21
Here's my "friendly" DoC list.

Keeper of Secrets (level 4)
Herald (chariot, level 1)
Herald (foot, level 1)
Herald (on steed with BSB)

15 Daemonettes (FC)
15 Daemonettes (FC)
10 daemonettes (FC)
5 Furies

7 Seekers (FC)
6 Seekers (FC)
5 Seekers (FC)


3 Fiends

So pure-Slaanesh, and there are zero gifts or daemonic icons. It plays well but not unbeatably - it's all speed and without the usual Ld bomb it needs to do damage with those S3 daemonettes to do well.

Would this be considered "fun" for a daemonic list?

I like it - personally id drop all magic everywere and load up one more deamonettes and fiends - but i like the idea of the no gifts/icons!

Pacorko
22-02-2010, 20:35
If Immune to Psychology is what bothers you, just remove it when you're not in a tournament or something :)

It's not a thing that bothers me in the least. I am merely addressing why some people may complain about it, aside from it being an minor unbalancing factor in the game as commentend above.

And someone put quite aptly in a marvelous and suscint way: "DoC is playing Halfhammer."

Really, so many exceptions to the main rules will make it a nightmare to balance any DoC list. There will always be something that doesn't look fair or right.

Add to that the fact that there are lots players who go all out with the sillyness (all official, granted), and the many sad cases of jerks who not content themselves with just how spiked DoC are, they go and find ways to abuse the rules!

loveless
22-02-2010, 20:59
They just donít act like a semi-real army would.

While I agree that Psychology is one of the factors that stops WHFB from being great (the Magic Phase is the main offender in that department), I hate arguments like this. Of course they aren't going to act like a semi-real army - they're effectively extra-dimensional beings that feed off of emotion and entropy. Though I may have missed the history class where the Britons summoned daemons to slaughter the French only to see said daemons break and run after Jeanne d'Arc hit them with her magic sword :p

I think that's a problem with some fantasy, though - it's difficult to deal with fantasy baddies because they don't play by the rules. The humans, dwarfs, elves, and other good guys typically have to face ridiculous odds to topple the daemonic overlord or vampiric tyrant - it may not seem "fair" to get to play as the overlord or tyrant, since the typical rules are their playthings.

You have to wonder, though - if the damn Empire faces off against Chaos and the Undead every 3rd Tuesday, why the heck are they still afraid of them?

Bodysnatcher
22-02-2010, 22:15
The Empire might, but the individual people don't. It's an important distinction.

_Ashdil_
22-02-2010, 22:57
I did not read the whole thread, but here are my 2 cents.

First I started DOC becouse I wanted an army that did not break and that did not care for fear/terror, but my friend plays both VC and Tomb Kings, so undead where out. And I love the models! And fluff too.

My army, or the list I want to field (dont have all the models yet) is fair, but not a pushover. So hopefully fun to play with, the test list I have tried out (with a prince/ or 4 heralds) have all been fun and close games.

So my idea is to have 1 of each heralds, and one of each core, no furies. I also wanted to get one more unit from each god. But I think I will rethink that and take in bloodcrushers instead of nurglings.
The list looks something like this (skipping gifts for now):

Herald of Slaanesh, lvl 1
Herald of Khorne
Herald of Nurgle lvl 1
Herald of Tzeentch

19 Bloodletters FC + banner
19 Daemonettes FC + banner
15 Plaguebearers FC
12 Horrors

5 Flesh hounds
5 Screamers
6 Seekers

3 Bloodcrushers

Vs the armies I will face I think this list will work just fine, seekers suck as they cant hit hard and cant take a hit (not from my 3 battles with them)

Bloodlettes with herlad so far rules and scares my opponent the most. Daemonettes are so so, but I see thier potential. I saw only yesterday that thier M is 6, I thought it was 5 :) so they have thier uses.
The plaguebearers with Herald will live through most things. After 5 turns of extream shooting from 3 x 10 glade guards and still 3 got through to fight and winn! Now that is something, he however shoot at other targets aswell, but they took a good 3 turns of full shooting. But I would like to have them in a regiment of 19, might tweak the list for it.
The rest have thier uses aswell. Bloodcrushers to get some more heavy hitting, can be chnaged for 2 Beasts of nurgle instead. Screamers I have never used, but I will convert some and try them out. If used in the right way the slashing attack is a game winner!

I have fun with my Daemons, and they are not over the top unless you choose to, like most armies. They are however allways resiliant, like all ItP, crumbling and fearless armies.

Bodysnatcher
22-02-2010, 22:59
The 4 herald list can be quite nasty, so care must be taken with it.

_Ashdil_
22-02-2010, 23:07
True, but I dont think mine is over the top. Even when I have had 2 units of fleshhounds they have not run over thier opponnents, now I have only had 1 game vs TK, very frustrating as I got all charges in perfect, but not wounding and making a big mistake on my BSB for that battle made it a draw. Then I have had 2 battles vs WE. My all time nemesis army, I hate the buggers as I somehow fail to get how to beat them. There it has been one loss and one draw.
Next up is HE, and army I also have, so I should be able to beat them, knowing how everything works, and most magic combos etc...

Aslong as you stay away from flamers and extream use of any special choice and many min sized units of horrors I think you will get a balanced and fun list.

I like mixing the gods for for the rules diversity and the look of the units on the gameing booard then from fluff reasons. I am to old in the game just to go by fluff for each army I start with.:p

Vermin-thing
23-02-2010, 02:14
I'd play daemons, I've got around 6k worth, but mono armies are the ones I am drawn to. I'd rather not just spam plague bearers, nurglings, and beasts, but what choice do we have? The reason I'm not going to bother is that I know that the army is an unstoppable block of slow moving troops. I wish I could somehow convert models so that I can use more than just the latter. I am shocked by the lack of flexibility in terms of the troops. I'd rather not spam the same model 100 times, unless I'm playing 40k.

Would people backlash against bloodletters painted in the colours of nurgle? What about green/brown horrors, or daemonettes covered in maggots?

Rounding out at about 1999-2000:

Herald of nurgle, level 2
Herald of nurgle, level 2, mount
Herald of nurgle, level 2, BSB

16 plague bearers, command
20 plague bearers, command
15 plague bearers, musician

5 bases of nurglings

2 beasts of nurgle

donaldtroll
23-02-2010, 05:06
So basically, from the replies I've got the concensus seems to be that Daemons aren't fun to play with or against. Well that's not much of a shocker really. The army simply isn't flexible enough... it's just different versions of the same things over and over again. Plaguebearers, daemonettes, bloodletters, horrors - they're really just the same thing. And to fill out your special choices, you have more of the same thing... except that these are slightly different. Then the rare choices are again more of the same, but a bit different.

What a waste of an army book.

actually i would say that daemons are TOO flexible... especially if you know what you are going to go up against... need an anvil? none better than plaguebearers... facing dwarves? bloodletters will eff them up big time... elves? slaanesh is tailor made for that... wanna win? just go tzeentch :P

they got the best anvil, some of the best hammers, great characters (very flexible) awesome special chars, and most of all EVERY unit in the book is viable one way or another... very diverse list imho, and great fun to play with

ftayl5
23-02-2010, 06:27
daemons can be very fun too play and even play against IF you use a single pantheon. If you sitick to a single god, it actually makes the game a little challenging eg.

Khorne; an all khorne army has little manouverability, no shooting, no magic and no defence against 'subtle magic' (invok, vanhels, etc) But they will obliterate everthing in close combat

Nurgle: some magic, some magic defence, no shooting. Very little killing power, but a lot of survivability and that never say die attitude

SLaanesh: some magic, some magic defence, no shooting. Very manouverable, very fast with nothing under movement 6. However, not very hard hitting, will stuggle against anything with decent armour or toughness

Tzeentch: ULTRA magicy, very good shooting from flamers too. But you will be destroyed in close combat, I repeat YOU WILL NOT WIN CLOSE COMBAT EVER.
I exagerate but you get the idea

Combine these amd you have an army with no weaknesses, khorne for elite, slaanesh for light, nurgle for points denial and 'holder uppers', and tzeentch for magic and shooting.

But seperate thema nd you have an army with obvious strengths aswel as very exploitable weaknesses. Hence more challenging to play, and less painful to play against

I personaly use an all khorne army

reynor
23-02-2010, 07:29
I personaly use an all khorne army

An all-Khorne army sounds fun. Lots of red! :D

All Slaanesh would be interesting too. Not for leadership bomb, etc. Just for the finesse necessary to winning combat with fast, fragile units. Flank flank flank!

I love daemon models. In the end, I wish the army wasn't so daemonized! :eek:

Falkman
23-02-2010, 10:35
Would people backlash against bloodletters painted in the colours of nurgle? What about green/brown horrors, or daemonettes covered in maggots?
I think that's a great idea, you get some more variation in your army but still stay in theme if you model them correctly.
I know a guy who did the same but Tzeentch themed, his Seekers were Dryads riding on green stuff flame, all painted in Tzeentch colours, looked like some sort of fire-nymphs, was really cool.

Pacorko
23-02-2010, 17:25
Don't get me wrong, mates. I am not jumping on the whinwagon, the concept is appealing and one single god army is a fantastic thing to behold.

Yet, that's what I don't like about the whole concepts: Daemons standing on their own with way too many exceptions to the main rules, just read like "overcompensation for lack of numbers--and interesting additions".

I just would love to have a Mortal unit or two thrown in, as in the days of not so old, so you can see plagueriddled madmen (all sorts of conversions made from flaggies and zombies and whatnot) walking alongside Plaguebearers or Beasts.

But we have to play by the book--which in turn doesn't care much about the main book! :D

So, I for one I'm not going to get any "backlashing" from anyone just because I want to add some variety to the rather "meh" Nurgle models available. Or Tzeentch's or Slaanesh's. It was exactly what I tought the minute I decided I wanted to make a DoC army: Three mono-god armies to suit my tastes, using all of the available models and them some. And houseruling new units for everyone to use in my regular games with my friends.

Daemons, of all armies, just seem to be there to inspire our creativity to new heights.

But my arguments stays the same: as they are written now, it's impossible to balance DoC. People may choose not to spike them that much, but they are meant to work as sinergetic-whole and that just means they will be "unbalanced" individually.

You can still have fun with them or against them, though. But I believe people in both camps will be missing a lot.

MalusCalibur
23-02-2010, 18:49
Been a while since I addressed this issue, so I'll dust off my 'rant' (though it's not really a rant).

It is my belief that the problem with DoC lies with players being *badwords*, more than it lies with the book itself. The book is easily the most abusable in the current range, but that doesn't mean every army built with it has to be. I think that any DoC player should be taking the units they like, for whatever reason that is. Models and fluff being the key ones there (they are certainly my main deciding factors). To tell a player they can't take certain things from their book is not exactly a friendly way to conduct a game. This is why those who pour scorn on the book annoy me a little when they create the 'lists of unfair things'. Just because something is good in a book doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. Daemons should be allowed their powerful items just like everyone else, though thanks to the Daemonic Gift rules you do need to excercise some restraint. But arbitrary bannings, or additional restrictions like items taking extra slots, etc, is not the answer. The player themself should recognise and avoid the issues where plausible.
Of course, there are still things that a player should not do, and the main one for me is patron over-mixing. Although it DOES make fluff sense (Daemonic incursions generally tended to be mixed in this way), it does present the problem of 'you get the best of all worlds'. Personally, I can't see why anyone would want to mix more than 2 gods anyway (the gods wouldn't exactly be pleased about that either), but sticking to one means you only get one major 'strength' compared to the four as a whole (which is a good thing). I won't repeat those individual strengths as somebody already covered them.
Another major one is overloading on the dodgy units, which are Hounds, Flamers, and (to a lesser extent) Horrors. I don't mean that you should never take these units at all (it would leave Khorne armies a bit neutered to take no Hounds), but in moderation. 1 or 2 units tops, because that seems a reasonable amount for a 'real' Daemon army to bring. Again, it's down to the player to not be an **** about it.
The last one (for me) is special characters. I loathe special characters, frankly. All of them, from any book - even moreso now that they're now part of the list instead of 'opponents consent', as they damn well should have remained. They reek of boring - if you want a cool character in your army, invent one yourself! Write your own background, and choose your own items. Why would I want to take someone like Skulltaker, or the Masque, and use THEIR army? I want to use MY army. Not to mention that the Daemon special characters are undeniably broken to the point where my arguments cease to apply. No Daemon player should take them - if they do, then they are crossing into *badword* territory.

What I'm getting at really is that Daemons shouldn't be hated for being Daemons. It's not a perfect book by any stretch (Hounds with 2 Wounds? Flamers good at combat? Special characters who make children weep?), but I don't think the answer is to try and take away everything that Daemons do have going for them as some kind of retaliation - ideas such as taking away their 'proper' Ward save, or bringing back the old 'instagib' rules. Do you know anyone who played a pure/majority Daemon army back when those rules were in place? I'd be inclined to doubt it.
I personally play Daemons because I adore them. I go against my own convictions because I DID try to play a majority Daemon army back in the HoC days, with limited success. I don't like to feel guilty because I want to play my favourite army (and that's not because of the power level), and I don't think anyone who wants to play Daemons should be ostracised for it, or forced into a 'watered down' set of rules by other people. I think that, so long as the player is consciously aware of both players enjoyment, and doesn't squeeze every last bit of power out of the DoC list (and most of all, bins the idea of special characters from the get-go), then there is no reason for them not to collect and play them.

DoC is a book where all the choices are viable, and as far as I know nothing is complete and utter junk that could NEVER work. Surely that is something else positive about it?

[For the record, although anecdotal evidence counts for nothing, my win record with my own Slaanesh/Khorne (and please, no crucifixions for mixing those two - I did it because those are the two I like the best) army is about level, and even then I've decided to change it to two seperate mono-god armies.]

_Ashdil_
23-02-2010, 19:23
I agree with Pacorko, it would be fun if they had some human units. I would love to see Daemons get more units overall, undivided daemons, so that they are available to all gods and you get more choices. That is a good thing, becouse if you choos unit A, you miss out on unit B and vice versa.
For a human unit I think some form of cultist units would be cool. So atleast one undivided unit in special and one rare. Perhaps let them have marks to make them more suitible to one god.

I came up with an idea of what would happen if they brought back the role 11/12 and they go poff rule. If you bring cultists, they could perhaps stoop that from happening to units within 6" or some such, as thier praying and ringdancing and symbol writing helps the daemons to stay in the mortal world. That would ad alot of flavour to daemons, and make them harder to play with, as cultist units should be weak in combat. What they should do is to support the daemon units.

This is very much wishlisting, but something that I think would make the army more fun and diverse, and also would help to get away from the problems that do exists with the book now.

On the note of special chars, all special chars for all armies should only be used if you opponent agrees to it. They are special, only one of a kind Lords and heroes that seldom will be seen on a battlefield. I know GW does alot to point towards the opposite, but what do they know! ;)

ftayl5
24-02-2010, 05:31
as in the days of not so old

I too enjoyed those days. Where my bloodletters made an elite hard hitting centre unit... not the entire army. But oh well. Do a lengedary battle, 2 vs 2, chaos warriors and daemons of chaos vs ___________ and ______

better yet 3 v3

Chaos Warriors, Daemons of Chaos and Beasts of... oh wait its just beastmen now :cries:

A short answer to teh title of this thread.

In most cases, not very

reynor
24-02-2010, 06:52
Maybe we should just play with the old Hordes of Chaos rules?

Oh the good old days!

16 pt bloodletters that could poof away as easily (or more easily) than the average unit of troops?

No one could complain about our army then...

Oh! And Daemonettes were sexy back then, too.

I have wanted to run Daemons for more than a year... but the local community backlashes... and after a year of playing Fantasy I understand why...

But I still LOVE the models and LOVE the fluff!

ftayl5
24-02-2010, 09:34
Oh! And Daemonettes were sexy back then, too.

so true

i did used to get annoyed at my deamons suddenly dissapearing, but it added more fun to the game. Daemons were funner back then, now they're the serious, no laughs, destroyers that they probably should be. I think daemons are undercosted now, 12pts for a bloodletter thats overall better than the old 16pt ones.... and a daemon hero was 230pts (without marks/ magic/equipment) and now they're an average of 100pts each. (Still with mostly the same stats but variatiions for each god, + the locus ability)

about the psychology, i think it makes sense. daemons are basically slaves (kind of) to their patron, who is a dimension away with no possible threat to himself, so why on earth would he ever want them to flee, freeze with terror etc etc.

But yeah, I dont think the daemons are particularly horrible, considering that while the daemons are scrutinized and ranted about, the ranters are often the ones with the 2 Hell Pit Abomination or 2 Engine Of the Gods or 2 Screaming Bell /Plague Furnace lists.

So yeah please, daemon ranters reading this, go bother Mr. runs a 1250pt list with 20 power dice. Or Mr. no peasents in a brettonian list.

ftayl5

EDIT: also everything malus calibur said is 100% correct

reynor
24-02-2010, 09:44
...the ranters are often the ones with the 2 Hell Pit Abomination or 2 Engine Of the Gods or 2 Screaming Bell /Plague Furnace lists.


Ha ha one of the biggest daemon critics in our community ran a Hydra in a 750-pt list for a doubles tournament.

Just sayin'

Pacorko
24-02-2010, 15:18
That's true.

Many of the crap-talk I've heard comes from ubercompetitive jerks who don't want any kind of competition for their unbalanced/juiced-up/maxed-out/spam-prone miniature armies, and they are the ones that are "regulars" in what ridiculously small tourney circuit is there in Mexico City.

shredshredxx
24-02-2010, 23:30
i've thought for a long time about starting a balanced doc army with no greater daemon, probably subbing a daemon prince or just sticking to heralds for characters. the heralds are what really draw me to the list, as the conversion opportunities are really exciting, and i have tons of ideas for every option.

if your army is entirely immune to psychology, so what? so are vc and tk. every army has natural advantages, and that's one of daemons' advantages. and while a 5+ ward on every model may sound nuts at first, remember that the majority of the army is only t3, and only characters can get any sort of armour. compare this to brettonians, who can get a 5+ ward as well as a 2+ armour for their ENTIRE army. (although i certainly wouldn't mind magical attack negating the daemonic ward. it's fluffy, and would tone down daemons a great deal, which i think threads like this on prove is something the army list needs.)

if you build a list with balance in mind, i don't think anyone will give you grief for it. just stay away from greater daemons, big units of flamers and flesh hounds, and special characters. a theme helps, too.

reynor
24-02-2010, 23:49
Yeah. I've personally been thinking about a daemon prince with Khorne and Slaanesh. No flamers.

I like how in the old Hordes book you couldn't take Slaanesh, Nurgle or Tzeentch units if you had a Daemon Prince of Khorne, etc. It enforced some flavor and prevented kerazy lists.

I would even love to run an all Khorne list. It's great in Combat, a little speedy bought no magic and no shooting. Can't be that bad if I don't double up on gifts, magic items, etc. Led by a greater daemon, of course.

squiggoth
25-02-2010, 01:27
The last one (for me) is special characters. I loathe special characters, frankly. All of them, from any book - even moreso now that they're now part of the list instead of 'opponents consent', as they damn well should have remained. They reek of boring - if you want a cool character in your army, invent one yourself! Write your own background, and choose your own items. Why would I want to take someone like Skulltaker, or the Masque, and use THEIR army? I want to use MY army. Not to mention that the Daemon special characters are undeniably broken to the point where my arguments cease to apply. No Daemon player should take them - if they do, then they are crossing into *badword* territory.

You should either marry me or apply to that vacancy as a Game Designer in Nottingham. :)

The only Special/Unique thing about Special Characters in current 40K and Fantasy is how they magically appear in every tiny border skirmish - in the case of Daemons even in TWO universes simultaneously and in the case of Space Marines in every single one of the thousand Marine chapters out in the galaxy.
How very unique! I miss the days when I could simply tell my opponent "no way Karl Franz is gonna muster his Dragon AND the Pope AND a Steam Tank or two to help poor ole Mrs Yaroslav in Kislev get rid of them mean goblins nicking her cabbages" or "thank you, but your Boss Snikrot is in another galaxy".
The latest Lizardmen and Skaven books thankfully got blessed with (mostly) balanced, mediocre or overcosted Unique Characters, which means they are actually Unique (most players who claim to use Unique Characters to theme their army somehow always seem to think that the overcosted or mediocre ones don't provide cool themes for their army :angel: ). Us poor Daemon players on the other hand got dealt special characters that are so ridiculously cheap and effective that I wonder if GW realises that not everybody playing Daemons is seven years old. Not fielding the moronic Masques, Blue Scribes, Fateweavers, Skulltakers and Epidemiuses is definitely a very solid first step towards creating a Daemon army that is fun to play both with and against - a bit of constraint when it comes to mixing Marks, duplicating Gifts/Icons and overloading on the most broken units will be another good idea. And please don't insult your opponent's intelligence by converting your Flesh Hounds and Flamers into slaaneshi/nurglesque gribblies and telling him you did it for theme and looks - we all know why you didn't convert a Daemon Prince instead. ;)

With those restrictions they are a lot more balanced, but even then I still find them a rather dull army simply because they ignore half the game (but only the interesting half, ie baiting/fleeing, running away and all that other jazz that involves more strategic thinking than just pointing them towards the opponent and rolling a bucket of dice). I honestly can not be @rsed to dust my Nurglites off unless I have an opponent specifically asking to play a game against them - which has happened only once since the new book, I kid ye not. :p

MalusCalibur
25-02-2010, 01:53
You should either marry me or apply to that vacancy as a Game Designer in Nottingham. :)

Funny you should say that...thats exactly what I've done! (applied for the position, that is)


"thank you, but your Boss Snikrot is in another galaxy".

Gotta admit that I chuckled at that one.

Vermin-thing
25-02-2010, 02:01
Here's my attempt at a balanced nurgle/tzeentch army.

Daemons of Chaos 2500 points.

Heros:
Herald of nurgle: (level 1, staff of nurgle) 215 (general)
Herald of nurgle: (level 1, slime trail, palanquin) 225
Herald of tzeentch: (BSB, chariot of tzeentch) 200
Herald of tzeentch: (disk of tzeentch) 135

Core:
Plague bearers: 20: 240 (command 30) 270 Plague bearers: 20: 240 (command 30) 270
Horrors: 15: 180 (command 30) 210 Horrors: 15: 180 (command 30) 210
Furies: 5: 60 Furies: 5: 60

Special:
Seekers: 5: 120
Screamers: 6: 180
Nurglings: 4: 140

Rare:
Beasts of nurgle: 2: 200

Total: 2495

101 models
8 levels of magic, 8 power dice, 4 dispel dice, one bound item
14 deployments

It could be way harder.

Maoriboy007
25-02-2010, 02:20
The latest Lizardmen and Skaven books thankfully got blessed with (mostly) balanced, mediocre or overcosted Unique Characters,

Don't forget VC. They get my vote for some of the worst special characters, the manfredd Hero is the best of a bad lot, with maybe a nod to the Manfredd lord. Both have a huge (but probably fair) cost.

reynor
25-02-2010, 06:07
Yes the Daemon special characters are a bit much.

Even a mono Army with more than two Heralds is an annoyance.

However, I have been considering playing Daemons at 2500 in the Hobby Center Tournament this Sunday because I'm facing a Beastmen list with four units of Minotaurs, three chariots, some Ungors and Warhounds. And oh yeah -- a Wargor, Gorebull and two Bray Shamans in a Bestigor deathstar.

Unfortunately I don't have 2500 points of Daemons and most of them are not painted :( (they must be painted to play in the tournament).

So it's Ogres versus Minotaur spam.

It's not looking good.

Pacorko
25-02-2010, 06:39
Here's my attempt at a balanced nurgle/tzeentch army.

Daemons of Chaos 2500 points.

Heros:
Herald of nurgle: (level 1, staff of nurgle) 215 (general)
Herald of nurgle: (level 1, slime trail, palanquin) 225
Herald of tzeentch: (BSB, chariot of tzeentch) 200
Herald of tzeentch: (disk of tzeentch) 135
--snip--

It could be way harder.

As said above, more than two heralds ends any attempt at being balanced, so there.

Yes, it could be nastier, but I doubt your comp is a "balanced one". You just took balanced as "good at hitting, good at resisting, good at magic and with nice shooting", and I know similar armies have been the reason why many players whine about DoC.

Let's face it. They are overpowered, meant to be used in tandem, and can't be brought down to a "decent" level unless you take one and just one power... and that takes a bit of the fun for many DoC players who like to win all the time--that's why they picked daemons after the new books came out.

The more I read about them, the more I see they are flawed rules-wise. Way too many exceptions for their cost, to be fair.

Still, if I must face some tomorrow, so be it. I like my games whether I win or loose, and I have a soft spot in my heart for almost all of the silly Daemons.

reynor
25-02-2010, 07:02
As said above, more than two heralds ends any attempt at being balanced, so there.

More than two heralds and your risking a sprang tongue... (name that 80s movie!)

So... um... yeah.

Here's a khorny list for you:

Herald of Khorne, General, Juggernaut, Armor of Khorne, Firestorm Blade
Herald of Khorne BSB Juggernaut, Armor of Khorne, Banner of Unholy Victory

4x20 Bloodletters with full command

4x5 Furies
3x5 Fleshounds

3 Blood Crushers, Musician

2495

No magic standards. Only repeat is Armor of Khorne.

This army is combat and movement driven. No magic. No shooting. Still kinda fair. But as Cleveland Brown would say, it's a bit "buring."

Personally, I'd be bored by no baiting and fleeing. So much fun! But I think this army could still run the chance of getting shot to pieces, out beefed by Minotaurs (ha ha) or magicked to death. I'm sure most of the newer books could have a field day with it in the hands of a skilled general.

Makes me kinda want to spend the kajillion $$ to find out... and unleash the spray gun on my minions!!! :chrome:

Grey Mage
25-02-2010, 08:42
So basically, from the replies I've got the concensus seems to be that Daemons aren't fun to play with or against. Well that's not much of a shocker really. The army simply isn't flexible enough... it's just different versions of the same things over and over again. Plaguebearers, daemonettes, bloodletters, horrors - they're really just the same thing. And to fill out your special choices, you have more of the same thing... except that these are slightly different. Then the rare choices are again more of the same, but a bit different.

What a waste of an army book.

Is empire boring because its 95% Human?

Is my Lizzies boring being 80% Saurus?

Of course Daemons of Chaos is full of Daemons- Id be a bit upset if the book wasnt.

A couple of things could be done to bring the book back in line with others while keeping the unique feel of the army. Like capping Horrors at lvl 2 wizards, dropping BLs I by 1, and reducing the regen save on a number of nurgle units to a 5+ instead of a 4+. Oh, and for the gods sakes where is animosity?

But then, I dont mind fighting daemons- as a lizzie player I find it an honor and a privilege.

ftayl5
25-02-2010, 09:37
Herald of Khorne, General, Juggernaut, Armor of Khorne, Firestorm Blade
Herald of Khorne BSB Juggernaut, Armor of Khorne, Banner of Unholy Victory

4x20 Bloodletters with full command

4x5 Furies
3x5 Fleshounds

3 Blood Crushers, Musician

I too, give all my heralds armour of khorne, but really 2 juggernaut characters? is that necessary? You're not putting them both in the bloodcrusher unit right?

I woud advise the banner of sundering, it's just awesome for magic defence
I think even I might whine over 3 units of flesh hounds, but it is 2500 so, maybe its ok.

Heres a smaller Khorny List

1500pts

Herald of Khorne
Armour of Khorne, Firestorm Blade
140pts
Herald of Khorne
Battle Standard Bearer, Great Standard of Sundering, Armour of Khorne
190pts

20 Bloodletters
Full Command
270pts

15 Bloodletters
Full Command
210pts

5 Chaos Furies
60pts

5 Flesh Hounds
175pts

5 Flesh Hounds
175pts

3 Bloodcrushers of Khorne
Full Command
260pts

Total: 1480pts

Pretty mean with the bloodcrushers but I love the lil' devils, looks pretty mean over all, but remember, no shooting, magic etc
EDIT: actually looking over this a second time, it's actualy quite mean isnt it?

reynor
25-02-2010, 13:18
I too, give all my heralds armour of khorne, but really 2 juggernaut characters? is that necessary? You're not putting them both in the bloodcrusher unit right?

I dunno. I've never played such an army. :P I have next to no experience with daemons. No one in our community plays them.

I figured the Heralds would run around on their own or join a unit of bloodletters. I still tend to think like an Orcs & Goblins general -- I put my BSB and General on boars and nest them with big blocks of boyz.

I honestly don't know if my list is mean. Are Flesh Hounds mean? I was thinking they were overgrown Warhounds. :P I guess I should look at the stats.

Man, I want to play daemons. But I don't want to be "that guy." It's too bad. They are such great models, are fun to paint and look terrific on a battlefield.

Sigh. I guess I'll go build me some Spaze Mareenz. Very rarely do people cry cheese over Smurfs.

reynor
25-02-2010, 14:07
Does anyone think my Khorne list is as cheesy as a Beastmen army with four units of Minotaurs, three chariots, a 24-man block of Gors with a Beastlord, two bray shamans, and various ungors and warhounds?

Here's my list again, for your consideration:

Herald of Khorne, General, Juggernaut, Armor of Khorne, Firestorm Blade
Herald of Khorne BSB Juggernaut, Armor of Khorne, Banner of Unholy Victory

4x20 Bloodletters with full command

4x5 Furies
3x5 Fleshounds

3 Blood Crushers, Musician

2495

No magic standards. Only repeat is Armor of Khorne

squalie
25-02-2010, 14:10
However, I have been considering playing Daemons at 2500 in the Hobby Center Tournament this Sunday because I'm facing a Beastmen list with four units of Minotaurs, three chariots, some Ungors and Warhounds. And oh yeah -- a Wargor, Gorebull and two Bray Shamans in a Bestigor deathstar.

You shouldn't have too much to worry about as that's an illegal list.

reynor
25-02-2010, 14:18
Holy Cow (no pun intended).

Sorry. I meant it was a gor deathstar.

Jack of Blades
25-02-2010, 15:12
Is empire boring because its 95% Human?

Is my Lizzies boring being 80% Saurus?

Of course Daemons of Chaos is full of Daemons- Id be a bit upset if the book wasnt.

A couple of things could be done to bring the book back in line with others while keeping the unique feel of the army. Like capping Horrors at lvl 2 wizards, dropping BLs I by 1, and reducing the regen save on a number of nurgle units to a 5+ instead of a 4+. Oh, and for the gods sakes where is animosity?

But then, I dont mind fighting daemons- as a lizzie player I find it an honor and a privilege.

No, because it's an army with varied options. Daemons have exciting character opportunities (what army doesn't... okay, Ogres don't count) but their troops? Individually they're all fine. But when you have four blocks for your troop entries along with Furies, I mean come on. How would you like Empire if your troop selection was made up of swordsmen, halberdiers, spearmen and another block that can shoot spells from one lore? That doesn't quite catch the whole point though, but you get it.

WoC, another close combat oriented army, are somehow infinitely more attractive out of a gameplay point of view than DoC. Doc's feel isn't exactly enticing either... ''we're evil automatons that go around killing stuff'' is very dull, reminds me of mono-Khorne (which is even duller) and it doesn't help that they actually are automatons. It might be that Daemons just aren't for me I guess, but the army as a whole has fluff and gameplay as deep as flattened paper.

Basically, I'm saying that the options of the Daemons are a bit on the bland side, it feels like unit types that were copy-pasted into the army book to fill the roles. There are no toys.

reynor
26-02-2010, 05:13
Hmmm... I like them. But I have to admit they were better as the spice in the Hordes of Chaos army as opposed to the main ingredient in their own army.

Still, I loves me some Daemon models. The aesthetics are the thing I find attractive.

I have to agree -- Warriors of Chaos are a more attractive army to play. They are combat oriented and have sweet magic too.

ftayl5
26-02-2010, 05:40
I disagree. Did you ever stop and think "wait a second... don't WoC worship DoC??" You know... they do.... so.... yeah.... kinda... points out just who is better....

Although fluff does tell us that the gods prefer mortals as they are rarer and and have initiative, personalities and ambitions and FEELINGS (you know those things that allow the chaos gods to exist) I think that WoC might be nicer to play because less people start gathering pitchforks and torches when they see you. But to me a DoC army looks better, more conversion options, very chracterful models, and much more challenging to paint. Whereas 80% of a WoC army is metal and oversized shields.

And no it's not because I just like having a 'massively overpowered army' it's because I really like the fluff, the models, the modelling and painting opportunities and the look on everyones face when the combat phase arrives :)

reynor
26-02-2010, 05:45
I only have 1,000 points of Daemons and I've only fielded them twice.

I like the army and like finding ways to run it without being overpowered. I'm even thinking of using the old Hordes of Chaos rules so I can have the classic mix of mortals and daemons (and maybe even some beasts!)

Rogzor87
26-02-2010, 06:13
Let's face it. They are overpowered, meant to be used in tandem, and can't be brought down to a "decent" level unless you take one and just one power... and that takes a bit of the fun for many DoC players who like to win all the time--that's why they picked daemons after the new books came out.


I Been playing Daemons Since the Storm Of Chaos book. I didn't pick them because they were overpowered I picked them because they were fun and the Army I had at the time.

So don't just assume people only play them because they win. Some people just like the Lore and style of the army (ME as an example) And has played them for many years.

Falkman
26-02-2010, 06:41
Does anyone think my Khorne list is as cheesy as a Beastmen army with four units of Minotaurs, three chariots, a 24-man block of Gors with a Beastlord, two bray shamans, and various ungors and warhounds?

Here's my list again, for your consideration:

Herald of Khorne, General, Juggernaut, Armor of Khorne, Firestorm Blade
Herald of Khorne BSB Juggernaut, Armor of Khorne, Banner of Unholy Victory

4x20 Bloodletters with full command

4x5 Furies
3x5 Fleshounds

3 Blood Crushers, Musician

2495

No magic standards. Only repeat is Armor of Khorne
You're not serious, are you?
Beastmen are about as far from cheese as you can come, and the list you posted ain't even a good Beast-list (so, a bad list from a bad army), whereas you have 3 Flesh hound units, one of the hardest units in the game.
If you wanna label it as such, then yes, your list is cheesier than the Beast-list. Except for the Flesh hounds yours isn't particularly good either though.

reynor
26-02-2010, 06:42
I like the lore and the style. The only thing that keeps me from playing them is the overpoweredness.

Which is our main topic. How do we craft "balanced" daemon lists?

My above-posted Khorne list is, IMHO, a decent attempt. Mono-God can help.

Unfortunately I think friendly builds with the other gods would be tougher. Slaanesh could pull it off so long as leadership bombing is avoided. Nurgle is just so darn tough. And tzeentch. Don't get me started. An entire field of Horror units that are each a wizard?

That's why I built with Khorne. I think it could be a fun list.

On the other hand, a Warriors of Chaos list with Mark of Slaanesh would be better. Immune to Fear, Panic and Terror -- but still able to bait and flee? Yes please!

reynor
26-02-2010, 06:45
You're not serious, are you?
Beastmen are about as far from cheese as you can come, and the list you posted ain't even a good Beast-list (so, a bad list from a bad army), whereas you have 3 Flesh hound units, one of the hardest units in the game.
If you wanna label it as such, then yes, your list is cheesier than the Beast-list. Except for the Flesh hounds yours isn't particularly good either though.

Well I proposed that seriously -- but I am particularly naive when it comes to the daemon book.

What would tone it down?

That's why I'm here -- to find ways to run Daemons in a friendly way.

For what it's worth, that Beastmen Minotaur Kingdoms army walked all over a Multi-God daemon army teamed with Skavens and a Screaming Bell. Minotaurs are ridiculously hard in combat. I think we managed to kill one!

Falkman
26-02-2010, 06:53
Well I proposed that seriously -- but I am particularly naive when it comes to the daemon book.

What would tone it down?
Reducing the Flesh hounds. 1-2 units are enough, you could go for some Blood crushers instead.
But as I said, the rest of the list isn't particularly nasty, I just found the amount of Flesh hounds a bit excessive.


For what it's worth, that Beastmen Minotaur Kingdoms army walked all over a Multi-God daemon army teamed with Skavens and a Screaming Bell. Minotaurs are ridiculously hard in combat. I think we managed to kill one!
They might be hard in combat, but they're fragile as hell out of it, just shoot them some and watch them run in panic (or if they got a mino character joined up, just shoot some more).

reynor
26-02-2010, 07:43
My Seekers trashed a unit of Ungors. But none of the rest of our units got to fight anything but minotaurs.

Granted, we had no shooting. And none of my Magic Missle spells went off. :(

Flesh Hounds dropped to one unit. Two units of Blood Crushers.

This is all theoretical anyways -- but good! Perhaps I'll buy the army someday?

Grey Mage
26-02-2010, 09:51
No, because it's an army with varied options. Daemons have exciting character opportunities (what army doesn't... okay, Ogres don't count) but their troops? Individually they're all fine. But when you have four blocks for your troop entries along with Furies, I mean come on. How would you like Empire if your troop selection was made up of swordsmen, halberdiers, spearmen and another block that can shoot spells from one lore? That doesn't quite catch the whole point though, but you get it.

WoC, another close combat oriented army, are somehow infinitely more attractive out of a gameplay point of view than DoC. Doc's feel isn't exactly enticing either... ''we're evil automatons that go around killing stuff'' is very dull, reminds me of mono-Khorne (which is even duller) and it doesn't help that they actually are automatons. It might be that Daemons just aren't for me I guess, but the army as a whole has fluff and gameplay as deep as flattened paper.

Basically, I'm saying that the options of the Daemons are a bit on the bland side, it feels like unit types that were copy-pasted into the army book to fill the roles. There are no toys.

Ahh, I see- I hadnt thought of it like that. In that respect your quite right... there is basicly one choice per slot per god, at best. If your playstyle runs heavily to a particular god, or you simply choose to go mono-dual god(s) then it would be alot blander.

Chaotic beings from beyond the galaxy who represent the shifting and corrupting powers of the empyrean shouldnt be... static. I can agree with that.

Condottiere
26-02-2010, 12:16
If the points discrepancy is a worry, unilaterally add 10% to the cost of each Daemon, or even 20%.

reynor
26-02-2010, 15:21
Chaotic beings from beyond the galaxy who represent the shifting and corrupting powers of the empyrean shouldnt be... static. I can agree with that.

You mean chaos should be CHAOTIC?! FTW? ;)

ftayl5
26-02-2010, 20:39
yes there is that problem with mono god armies, you only have 5 different things to choose (greater daemon, herald, core slot, special slot and rare slot) and slannesh hardly has a special as theres no model for seekers, except on ebay perhaps

Grey Mage
26-02-2010, 21:53
You mean chaos should be CHAOTIC?! FTW? ;)

Remember my friend, WTF=FTW ;).