PDA

View Full Version : What's appealing about Dark Angels?



TownCryer
21-02-2010, 13:26
Sometimes, say once or month or so I think on Dark Angels, but I don't know why, before I really was opposed to them, but now I've just been thinking on them with some consideration. But why? Why are they so appealing?? How do they play? What makes them different from standard marines?

cuda1179
21-02-2010, 13:51
They are different because they suck.:p

All kidding aside, they really don't have a lot going for them. The only good things about them are their special characters, Land Speeders that can claim objectives in certain situations, and the ability to take BOTH terminators and bikes and troops simultaniously.

The thing is that unless you want one of those three things the other marine codex's can do the same job better for less points. The Dark Angels' wargear is outdated and overcosted. Marines can have bikes as troops for far fewer points. Space Wolves can have terminators as troops for fewer points with far more options.

I do feel your pain though. I have a Dark Angels army. The only way they are seeing the light of day is if they play as generic Green Marines. At least until they get a new codex.

Threeshades
21-02-2010, 14:01
Actually space wolf terminators are really expensive as soon as you go beyond the standard storm bolter and power weapon equipment.

On the other hand i don't know how expensive death wing termies really are.

bigcheese76
21-02-2010, 14:05
In my opinion the main thing going for Dark Angels is the appearance of their veteran marines. I really like the models with their robes.

WinglessVT2
21-02-2010, 14:28
Terminators as troops.
Too bad they only ever come in units of five, and cost way too much.

Grand Master Raziel
21-02-2010, 15:48
Codex: Dark Angels is a heavily outdated, overcosted dex. If you're just looking to play a standard power armored Space Marine army, you're far better off using Codex: Space Marines. However, it can still be pretty competitive if you field a combined-armed approach with Bikes and Terminators along with a power armored contingent. Ravenwing Attack Squadrons are a lot more expensive than SM Bike Squadrons, but they do have a few things going for them. They have the Scouts rule (so, either a 12" scout move or outflanking, you're choice), they're Fearless, and every single bike has a teleport homer. You also get Attack Bikes as an upgrade to Ravenwing Attack Squadrons, but unlike the ABs that upgrade SM Bike Squadrons, RW ABs operate independently of their squadron. This is great when you field Sammael, making those RW squadrons Troops. Those Attack Bikes become scoring units. Having 50pt scoring units that can move 24" in a single turn is pure tactical gold.

As for Deathwing Terminators, they're a little more expensive than Space Marine Termies, but they're fearless, and if you field Belial, they're Troops. Not as useful as the Ravenwing as Troops, but not to be ignored. Also, Belial (at least as I field him, with twin L-claws) is quite a bit cheaper than a SM Captain with the same equipment. He's only WS5, but still has Rites of Battle - ditto Sammael and all DA Company Masters, so they do more from you besides just being killy. Plus, there's pre-nerf Chaplains. You can actually still get a 3 wound chaplain with Codex: Dark Angels! That doesn't suck.

MasterGideon
21-02-2010, 16:05
To Be fair, everyone above has hit the nail, they are out numbered, out gunned and out dated compared to SM, SW and soon to be BA, So really what is going for them? only 2 things really, their Background and unique image.

Play them to their strengths, which is Deathwing and Ravenwing and if your gaming group allows forgeworld units, bring in some mortis Dreads and Damocleas Command Rhino, they help a lot with bridging the weakness of Dark Angel lists.

But that my view, In all I hope that if and when the Dark Angel get there new Codex, it is as good as the rest of SM codex, what been seen in the SW and SM and what has been heard about the Blood Angel, well interesting times ahead for the unforgiven.


MasterGideon

Deusmex
21-02-2010, 17:15
They look cool and they have Dark in their name.

Simplistic yes but Im a simple guy.

Epicenter
21-02-2010, 18:47
A DA player can chalk up losing to his dex instead of admitting the problem might have been something he did.

wazatdingder
21-02-2010, 18:51
I was unaware anyone found them appealing.

bobbles
21-02-2010, 18:56
Its the cross dressing thing

DinoDoc
21-02-2010, 19:01
Sammael (Both versions) is the coolest HQ imo.

Thommy H
21-02-2010, 19:09
If you like the background and you happen to have a collection of figures that can only be built using the Dark Angels Codex, then go for it. If you just want Space Marines and don't plan on going Terminator- or bike-heavy then there's not much point using a variant Codex. You wouldn't take White Scars without bikes or Salamanders without flamers, would you? So only use C: DA if you think it's going to be something you can make use of.

Some advantages (major and minor) include the combined-arms tactics of Deathwing and Ravenwing squads, Termies with heavy and assault weapons, Terminator command squads, Fearless characters and units, the option for better Chaplains and Librarians (Ezekiel) than those fielded by regular Marines, commanders with Rites of Battle, Techmarines that don't take up Elites slots, Command Squads unlocked by any character and special weapons in 5-man Tactical Squads.

Some disadvantages (also major and minor) include fractionally more expensive Tactical Squads, much worse storm shields, poorer psykers, dropping a point of WS on your commanders, less versatile Veterans (although Sternguard and Vanguard are kind of rolled into one entry, minus jump packs on the latter), worse Venerable Dreadnoughts, no Master of the Forge, no WS 5 Company Champions and no fancy new Marine units.

They're not ridiculously worse than Space Marines, nor can you do "the same for less" except in a general sense. I can't physically field my army using Codex: Space Marines, for example.

Also, remember the FAQ: if you want to use a hybrid Codex and you have an opponent that will let you, then go do it. I also believe a lot of people are now keeping their options open with armies that can be used with both (or all, for SW fans) Codecies. So there's still options if you like your robes and sword symbols.

TownCryer
22-02-2010, 08:07
All very nice to keep in mind, and doing a hybrid codex might be the best way to go for me. I think for me it's the overall feeling that the Dark Angels have, the Gothic and Monastic feeling they have with them, especially the robes. And even then the FW dread - might as well since I'm planning on hitting up Warhammer World in a month or so.

But I think I should just rack up all my considerations for the army.

GrimZAG
22-02-2010, 08:52
Dark, Secretive, "Fallen Hero" type story, and they still defend the Imperium even though (they think) they have problems..

Dark Angels are like unpackaging a box to find another smaller, beautifully carved wooden box, covered in dark metallic gilding with a key in the key hole.. do you dare open it? Or shall it's secrets remain a mystery?

laudarkul
22-02-2010, 13:06
Dark Angels. Their name suggest something dark about them and their past suggest something like this. All those secrets around them makes their chapter intriguing.
I think that Ravenwing and Deathwing companies increase also the appeal factor.
What is not vanilla coupled with dark robes and secrets=win.

Fobster
22-02-2010, 13:31
They were special indian marines now they are grimdark and special. Aparently.

Hypaspist
22-02-2010, 16:28
Most of the negative aspects of why you *wouldn't* play Dark Angels have been covered above, but I play Dark Angels becuase I like their chapter history, and I like their visual look. The Rules, whether 3rd/4th/5th edition tend to be transitory, and whilst I can see, and understand why some of our brothers may have strayed to Codex: Space Marines, I am a proud proponent of playing Dark Angels because I like the Chapter. Ultimately, when choosing a chapter, look at the backstory, look at the history, and achievements, look at the characters within the chapter, and let that guide your hand.

Today's strong codex may be hit with Tomorrow's nerfbat (and vice versa) so picking a Space Marine Chapter because you like them and what they stand for (in my opinion) is a great decision.

To me, that's what is appealing about the Dark Angels, and I love them for it.

:)

EffigyoftheSwarm
22-02-2010, 16:48
I use the Dark Angels codex over the vanilla one cos i like to run a full army of Terminators.

And, wow, looks like we've gone a thread without someone misusing the term 'Emo' with regards to the DA's. Whenever some one says that i smile and say 'Yeah orchid were cool.'

Doppleskanger
22-02-2010, 16:52
Well I actually one a game with my DA last night, and that always makes you feel really good, so that's one reason. They are a challenge, but the models are fantastic (and with the new ven dread all in plastic except the IC's)and the back ground is well developed. The codex was sort of caught between editions and in a moment of confused direction from GW, so isn't great, but one day they will get a new codex. And what will be in it? Well given the current trend of amplifying the unique aspects of a chapter then we have to ask what is the unique, defining trait of the chaptr:? They wear dresses. What will be in the new codex? Short Skirts!

blackroyal
22-02-2010, 18:31
The comment "they are green" was the first thing that I thought, and everything else seems to have been covered already. Basically play them if you like deathwing/ravenwing.

Lusall
22-02-2010, 18:42
The comment "they are green" was the first thing that I thought, and everything else seems to have been covered already. Basically play them if you like deathwing/ravenwing.

It ain't easy being green.

But for me...it's the background. I like the secretive nature of the Dark Angels.

LonelyPath
22-02-2010, 18:53
Barring the Grey Knights, the Dark Angels have always been the most appealing to me with their background and what they're currently doing. They just click. Having a skimmer that is slmost a larnd raider and being able to field all-termie forces is nice, as are the models, but the fluff has always been the largest thing when it comes to attracting my attention to a army.

fluffstalker
22-02-2010, 20:05
Terminators, Bikes, Speeders, and having to work for your wins. Those are pretty much the only appealing things to me, since their battle companies are utter crap and all their special characters outdone by the SW/Vanilla dex.

enygma7
22-02-2010, 20:25
If you want to field a battle company you are fine to use the vanilla marine list. In fact, in the latest imperial armour a dark angels successor chapter is featured. They are mentioned as following the exact same structure as the dark angels, but then the book spends the next few pages talking about sternguard. So it seems even GW use the vanilla codex :)

In background terms, the dark angels are mostly based off the standard astartes template in any case.

Bloodriver
23-02-2010, 02:12
The only thing about them that appealed to me was that I could the DA Veteran squad as a basis for my Chaos Chosen.

ImRightBehindYou
23-02-2010, 02:14
They are different because they suck.:p

Land Speeders that can claim objectives in certain situations...

Your kidding right? Vehicles can never count as scoring.

Occulto
23-02-2010, 02:19
Your kidding right? Vehicles can never count as scoring.

If we go by the DA codex, they can. ;)

Codex trumps rulebook. :p

Nighthawke
23-02-2010, 02:24
Your kidding right? Vehicles can never count as scoring.

yes they can :S any vehivle that is a troops choice can or if it has a troops choice inside of it :)

DCLXVI
23-02-2010, 03:51
DA were my first (and only) SM army years ago, until I had to sell them all. Buying the Fortress of Redemption has reignited my interest in them and I intend to start collecting them soon :)
To me, the appeal of them was always the secretive Gothic background, the fact that something dark and terrible happened which they strive to atone for.
The fact they are wont to leave other chapters in the midst of battle to pursue their own agenda.
Plus all the (almost) demonic names - Asmodai (Asmodeus), Belial, Azrael etc :evilgrin:

It doesn't get much more grimdark than that!

Balerion
23-02-2010, 03:58
I enjoyed the ephemeral "stubborn mofos" angle of 3rd edition. It gave them a different taste than the other chapters, and presented an interesting basis on which to format armywide special rules. Unfortunately, GW has been backing away from that angle for years and flailing listlessly to replace it with something else that will stick, eg. "shooty plasma freaks" or "doublewing"

I've been thinking about selling my DAs, but I might stick it out for one more codex. Mostly because I don't want to deal with the ebay headache.

Thommy H
23-02-2010, 20:05
Except that Stubborn in 3rd Edition was almost the exact same rule as Fearless, so that's not really a change.

Ozendorph
23-02-2010, 22:43
Love the models, love the fluff, hate the dex. It's as though the head writer had something personal against the chapter.

I don't bother with my Angels for competitive games these days. I do enjoy painting them, and they still see action in Apocalypse :)

Mini77
23-02-2010, 22:59
They appeal because they look great. Aside from the White Scars there's not a better looking Space Marine chapter than the Dark Angels in my opinion.

WinglessVT2
23-02-2010, 23:01
Lamenters are cooler.

Madgear Thundaklutch
23-02-2010, 23:07
Honestly, Unless you want scoring speeders, fearless bikes, fearless termies, and cheap twin LC or TH/SS as troops, youre better off elsewhere. The spacewolves are the new Deathwing. The only draw back regarding a wolf termie army is lack of fearless and the over priced weapon options, a termie with TH/SS upgrade is 3 points shy of being double his base cost. Where as its free in the DA book, and possibly free in codex blue. dual claws are only about 8 points higher than the cost of a standard termie in DA/SM books (give or take).

I dont count logan's cost as a drawback, hes over twice the price of belial, but twice the man.

WinglessVT2
23-02-2010, 23:14
A gray knight brother-captain is about a third the price of Belial, but still twice the man.

MadDoc
23-02-2010, 23:50
Curious...

It would seem, from looking at the DA FAQ GW currently have up on their site, that they've removed the bits where they'd specifically nerfed Ravenwing Combat Squads to stop Scoring Speeders and have also removed the bit (where they flip-flopped) allowing/stopping Ravenwing bikers Turbo-Boosting on their Scout move (inspite of this being specifically allowed in the rulebook).

I wonder why they might have done that... :shifty:

Nighthawke
23-02-2010, 23:57
Curious...

It would seem, from looking at the DA FAQ GW currently have up on their site, that they've removed the bits where they'd specifically nerfed Ravenwing Combat Squads to stop Scoring Speeders and have also removed the bit stopping Ravenwing bikers Turbo-Boosting on their Scout move (inspite of this being specifically allowed in the rulebook).

I wonder why they might have done that... :shifty:

why did the faq have something in it saying you cant turbo boost on a scoot move ? it says you cant in the dark angels books :S

MadDoc
24-02-2010, 00:10
why did the faq have something in it saying you cant turbo boost on a scoot move ? it says you cant in the dark angels books :S

Yes, but GW had FAQed that to say you could. Then, while still leaving in the answer saying you could, they added another one saying you couldn't.

Now both are gone.

Nighthawke
24-02-2010, 00:22
Yes, but GW had FAQed that to say you could. Then, while still leaving in the answer saying you could, they added another one saying you couldn't.

Now both are gone.

Of course, you already knew all that and weren't just trying to be a smartarse or anything... :rolleyes:

Now, in the same spirit as your post, its a Scout move... not a scoot move.

thanks for being nasty :O i was genuinely curious about it, i thought you meant they FAQ'd it saying you cant turbo boost, but it says that in my codex anyway so i thought they might of done what they did to necrons and dark eldar codex wise

MadDoc
24-02-2010, 00:32
thanks for being nasty :O i was genuinely curious about it, i thought you meant they FAQ'd it saying you cant turbo boost, but it says that in my codex anyway so i thought they might of done what they did to necrons and dark eldar codex wise

Apologies, I thought you were simply trying to be a smartarse.

As I mentioned, GW had been wishy-washy (much to everybodies surprise) flip-flopping on the Turbo Boosting thing.

First saying you could do it... then that you could, but couldn't... and now they've removed any mention of it completely.

burad
24-02-2010, 04:09
Back to the original question.
To those of us who ride in real life, it's because of the Ravenwing.
If that doesn't make sense to you, you probably don't ride.

Madgear Thundaklutch
24-02-2010, 06:42
Back to the original question.
To those of us who ride in real life, it's because of the Ravenwing.
If that doesn't make sense to you, you probably don't ride.

We ride together, we die together. Ravenwing for life!

Plastic Rat
25-02-2010, 07:02
Sometimes, say once or month or so I think on Dark Angels, but I don't know why, before I really was opposed to them, but now I've just been thinking on them with some consideration. But why? Why are they so appealing?? How do they play? What makes them different from standard marines?

1. Models
2. Fluff
3. Being allowed to wear a dress in battle.
4. Being able to make other players laugh simply by waving your codex around.


Terminators as troops.
Too bad they only ever come in units of five, and cost way too much.

Space Wolves do it better now.

Scythe
25-02-2010, 07:27
Codex: Dark Angels is a heavily outdated, overcosted dex.

Sorry, what? Heavily outdated? Dark Angels are actually one of the more recent codexes released (march 2007, 3 years old). Since DA we have had releases of CSM, Orks Daemons, Space Marines, IG, Wolves and Tyranids (7 total). Older codexes include Eldar, Tau, Templars, Witchhunters, Daemonhunters, Necrons, Dark Eldar and Blood Angels (who are redone now though), a total of 8 races, some of which (Necrons) date back tot 2002, or even earlier if you do not count the 'revised' dark eldar codex.

That the codex might suffer competive wise is another issue entirely, but it does not stand alone in that aspect either.

Thommy H
25-02-2010, 07:45
Don't you know that being fractionally less competitive than a similar Codex released later and which built on the first Codex's innovations = completely outdated and nerfed?

Unless you win all the time with your book, it sucks (except from your opponent's perspective, when if you win all the time it's broken). A 50/50 win/loss ratio means you might as well just throw all your models in the bin.

Everyone knows that.

spaint2k
25-02-2010, 08:18
Space Wolves do it better now.

It really is somewhat debatable. Let's fight it out when you've got your Deathwing up and running. :)

Bartali
25-02-2010, 10:51
Apologies, I thought you were simply trying to be a smartarse.

As I mentioned, GW had been wishy-washy (much to everybodies surprise) flip-flopping on the Turbo Boosting thing.

First saying you could do it... then that you could, but couldn't... and now they've removed any mention of it completely.

The rulebook FAQ says bikes can turbo boost in their scout move, not sure if it was ever in the DA FAQ ?

LonelyPath
25-02-2010, 12:25
The rulebook FAQ says bikes can turbo boost in their scout move, not sure if it was ever in the DA FAQ ?

The DA FAQ was updated to say they could turboboost, then edited again to say they can't (with both answers being in there at the same time), as it's been mentioned, both of these have since been removed form the FAQ to fall back on the original mention in the codex that says they can't, lol.

@ Spaint2k - I recently had a Deathwing vs Loganwing battle and it was a draw, we had kill points and while the SW had the lead in CC with their storm shields, I had alot more bodies thanks to lower points costs (since WG cost the earth when upgraded beyond the basic storm bolter and power weapon) and was able to out maneuver him..

Madgear Thundaklutch
25-02-2010, 15:04
@lonely. That's more his list design than anything. Th/ss doesn't work when your upgrades are 25 points higher than everyone elses. Wolf guard termies weren't to spam th/ss. You can see that from the outrageous costs in the book. Had he equipped his termies with sb/wolf claw, he would have came out cheaper than yours and more effective.

spaint2k
25-02-2010, 16:05
I've got a pretty "optimised" force of Loganwing but so far I've only played on the same side as Deathwing (four player battle, 1500 points each, KP mission, our side cleaned up).

I still think that Logan's high cost coupled with the high price of TH, SS and chainfists mean that Deathwing can compete. And the Deathwing librarian's nullify is gold.

Kirill
25-02-2010, 16:33
Sorry, what? Heavily outdated? Dark Angels are actually one of the more recent codexes released (march 2007, 3 years old). Since DA we have had releases of CSM, Orks Daemons, Space Marines, IG, Wolves and Tyranids (7 total). Older codexes include Eldar, Tau, Templars, Witchhunters, Daemonhunters, Necrons, Dark Eldar and Blood Angels (who are redone now though), a total of 8 races, some of which (Necrons) date back tot 2002, or even earlier if you do not count the 'revised' dark eldar codex.

That the codex might suffer competive wise is another issue entirely, but it does not stand alone in that aspect either.

The meaning of the phrase "outdated" is not in reference to a period of time in this respect.
It is fairly obvious, if one takes a look through that codex that it is in fact out dated when compared to other space marine codexes.
It is also fairly obvious if you read the rest of the post you quoted from, what he was referring too.

Whether or not it was updated last year, or ten years ago has no reference to this discussion, because at the time of it's creation, to now, it has become outdated, by having other codexes do what it does, better.
The book is redundant.

More on topic.
Dark Angels (in my awesomely humble opinion) have the strongest background of any space marine chapter. It is easy to identify with them and mental imagery of heroic, brooding, bitter angels of death is glorious and easy to conjure.
I could never bring myself to play another chapter, even if the Dark Angels codex is nigh on pointless at this stage, rules-wise, the codex however still caries with it a lot of background, which Dark Angels aren't short on by any means, and reading it still gives a great feel, and that's where their appeal comes from, and it's fairly obvious that that's where they differ from "normal" space marines.
Unfortunately, and, much to the dismay of most Dark Angels players, they play simply like codex space marines, with slightly special terminators, and slightly special bikes. Here's hoping for that to change.

Plastic Rat
25-02-2010, 17:29
The meaning of the phrase "outdated" is not in reference to a period of time in this respect.
It is fairly obvious, if one takes a look through that codex that it is in fact out dated when compared to other space marine codexes.
It is also fairly obvious if you read the rest of the post you quoted from, what he was referring too.

Whether or not it was updated last year, or ten years ago has no reference to this discussion, because at the time of it's creation, to now, it has become outdated, by having other codexes do what it does, better.
The book is redundant.

More on topic.
Dark Angels (in my awesomely humble opinion) have the strongest background of any space marine chapter. It is easy to identify with them and mental imagery of heroic, brooding, bitter angels of death is glorious and easy to conjure.
I could never bring myself to play another chapter, even if the Dark Angels codex is nigh on pointless at this stage, rules-wise, the codex however still caries with it a lot of background, which Dark Angels aren't short on by any means, and reading it still gives a great feel, and that's where their appeal comes from, and it's fairly obvious that that's where they differ from "normal" space marines.
Unfortunately, and, much to the dismay of most Dark Angels players, they play simply like codex space marines, with slightly special terminators, and slightly special bikes. Here's hoping for that to change.

Well said. You can still win with the current codex. That's not the issue. However for many DA players, 'Is it competitive?' is not the entire measure of a codex.

I'll keep playing my DA army because of the fluff and the models, that always brings me back. The rules right now are just numbers and are fairly meaningless. I'll quite happily use the Space Marine Codex or Space Wolves to play my army. In the end I come back to the DA codex simply because it's convenient. I don't have to explain to my opponent that I'm actually using a different codex and that Sammael isn't actually a jetbike with a plasma cannon. Stuff like that.

I still however hope for a codex some day that brings out the character and uniqueness of DA on the tabletop.

Thommy H
25-02-2010, 18:17
Whether or not it was updated last year, or ten years ago has no reference to this discussion, because at the time of it's creation, to now, it has become outdated, by having other codexes do what it does, better.
The book is redundant.


Depends what your army is like. My Troops choices are Deathwing and a Tactical Squad - I can't do that with Space Marines or Space Wolves, because SM won't let me have Terminators as Troops and SW won't let me have a squad with a heavy and special weapon.

If I wanted to do pure Deathwing, C:SW might be better (though, as spaint2k says, I'm not convinced that an expensive Logan is more optimal than a dirt cheap Belial to get Termies as Troops) and if I wanted to do pure Battle Company, there's no doubt that C:SM would give me more options at a better cost. But a mix? Can't get that anywhere else. I also have a couple of Command Squads and a Company Veteran Squad, along with two Dreadnoughts and a Techmarine - that's, like, seven or eight Elites in C:SM, and there's literally no way I could make the army legal.

I'm not saying the book is better, or even as good, just that my particular combination of models only works with C: DA, so (at least in my case) it's not completely redundant.

Scythe
26-02-2010, 07:45
Unfortunately, and, much to the dismay of most Dark Angels players, they play simply like codex space marines, with slightly special terminators, and slightly special bikes. Here's hoping for that to change.

However, apart from the Ravenwing and Deathwing, Dark Angels are said to follow the codex astrates quite completely. Is there currently a big fluff reason why they shouldn't fight quite like codex space marines?

Kirill
26-02-2010, 08:40
Depends what your army is like. My Troops choices are Deathwing and a Tactical Squad - I can't do that with Space Marines or Space Wolves, because SM won't let me have Terminators as Troops and SW won't let me have a squad with a heavy and special weapon.

If I wanted to do pure Deathwing, C:SW might be better (though, as spaint2k says, I'm not convinced that an expensive Logan is more optimal than a dirt cheap Belial to get Termies as Troops) and if I wanted to do pure Battle Company, there's no doubt that C:SM would give me more options at a better cost. But a mix? Can't get that anywhere else. I also have a couple of Command Squads and a Company Veteran Squad, along with two Dreadnoughts and a Techmarine - that's, like, seven or eight Elites in C:SM, and there's literally no way I could make the army legal.

I'm not saying the book is better, or even as good, just that my particular combination of models only works with C: DA, so (at least in my case) it's not completely redundant.

Perhaps not completely redundant then, but only if you play with a grand mix of units, and maximize what the Dark Angels codex does actually do.
I will admit i'm glad there's somethings our codex still does well, and that if you are interested in playing that exact type of thing, than more power too you, and i hope the codex does you well, not all players want that though, which is where our codex begins to fail, as you, along with most of the rest of our players, see. A shame really. :(



However, apart from the Ravenwing and Deathwing, Dark Angels are said to follow the codex astrates quite completely. Is there currently a big fluff reason why they shouldn't fight quite like codex space marines?

The argument of whether or not we're truly so very dedicated to the Codex Astartes is one that is very debatable, as far as i can tell, the major thing about Codex Astartes is the formation. 9 of 100 and scouts, very basically, and the Dark Angels follow that.
However, it's been stated before, that the Dark Angels follow it loosely, it's also been stated that we're essentially codex, with little shiny bits.
Right now, in this current codex, we're obviously quite bound to the restrictions of codex space marines, and therefore seen as a fairly 'codex' chapter, and therefore, fight as such, and i can't debate that.

For the next codex, i could give you a multitude of reasons for them not to fight, or even be formed on a basic unit level, like the codex astartes deems, fluff and otherwise, though that's not the issue here really, but that is what i was referring to in my previous post, when i said i hope it changes.

Thommy H
26-02-2010, 17:57
I will admit i'm glad there's somethings our codex still does well, and that if you are interested in playing that exact type of thing, than more power too you, and i hope the codex does you well, not all players want that though

Would you play White Scars without bikes? Would you play Salamanders without any flame-weapons or meltas? Would you play Orks without boyz or Eldar without skimmers? If a Dark Angels army doesn't contain some Deathwing and Ravenwing units, or take advantage of all that Fearlessness, then you might as well use a different Codex, yeah. Stuff like that is what Dark Angels are for - complaining that you don't get the best out of the army if you don't use that stuff is like complaining that Tau suck if you build them around full frontal assault tactics!

I'm just saying that Dark Angels aren't all things to all people, nor should they be. There is no denying that they're "outdated" in the sense that many of their rules have been superseded by a shiny new Space Marine Codex (there is no good reason DA storm shields should be worse than SM storm shields, or their commanders worse fighters...) but in principle there's nothing wrong with the Codex and the way it works.

Kirill
26-02-2010, 18:41
Would you play White Scars without bikes? Would you play Salamanders without any flame-weapons or meltas? Would you play Orks without boyz or Eldar without skimmers? If a Dark Angels army doesn't contain some Deathwing and Ravenwing units, or take advantage of all that Fearlessness, then you might as well use a different Codex, yeah. Stuff like that is what Dark Angels are for - complaining that you don't get the best out of the army if you don't use that stuff is like complaining that Tau suck if you build them around full frontal assault tactics!

I'm just saying that Dark Angels aren't all things to all people, nor should they be. There is no denying that they're "outdated" in the sense that many of their rules have been superseded by a shiny new Space Marine Codex (there is no good reason DA storm shields should be worse than SM storm shields, or their commanders worse fighters...) but in principle there's nothing wrong with the Codex and the way it works.

There's a difference, between playing an army for it's advantages, and playing one because you enjoy the stylization, and feel of it.
Seems to me, you're mixing the two there, whether that's your intention or not is unclear.
Let me go into a bit of detail.
Dark Angels are not Ravenwing and Deathwing, plus filler, they're a space marine chapter, that happens to have two highly specialized formations.
To say playing Dark Angels you need some Ravenwing, and / or some Deathwing is silly, i shouldn't be expected to limit myself, or build around these two ideas, simply because the rest of my units receives no detail, there's no reason to have units in there that miss out on being "Dark Angely" or good, because they're not of the various wings.

I don't think Dark Angels are all things to all people either, i think they're Dark Angels, however people choose to view them. I myself like a battle company, which is why playing with the codex lets me down, because i know there's a better, and more fun list of options out there for me to enjoy, if the codex wasn't superseded by a different codex that blatantly makes most options in the Dark Angels codex a far inferior, and a less enjoyable choice, then the codex would by far and away the one i would play with every time, and i wouldn't have a problem with it.

Thommy H
26-02-2010, 18:44
By the same token, Salamanders aren't just flamers and meltas either. But if someone took Vulkan in their Space Marine army and didn't include any of those weapons to take advantage of his special rules, would they be justified in saying Vulkan wasn't worth taking?

Kirill
26-02-2010, 18:58
By the same token, Salamanders aren't just flamers and meltas either. But if someone took Vulkan in their Space Marine army and didn't include any of those weapons to take advantage of his special rules, would they be justified in saying Vulkan wasn't worth taking?

Depends what you're after i suppose?
If you wanted a highly effective list, based around Vulkan, and you didn't take any, or very few meltas or flamers, i suppose one would be justified in saying that he wasn't worth taking, though that's not what army is about in all cases.
If one wanted a list with Vulkan in it because you like salamanders more than is healthy, and didn't like the idea of flamers, or meltas, or both, i would find no problem in taking him, he's still a half decent character without those rules, and if it helps you fit the feel you like of your army, why not?!

One might like the idea of heroic captain Belail leading brothers of the fifth to battle, without the support of deathwing terminators, because one of the fallen is apparently somewhere nearby, and Belail is the only available commander in that particular region of space, if that's what you like, why not?!

Balerion
26-02-2010, 19:05
I'm just saying that Dark Angels aren't all things to all people, nor should they be. There is no denying that they're "outdated" in the sense that many of their rules have been superseded by a shiny new Space Marine Codex (there is no good reason DA storm shields should be worse than SM storm shields, or their commanders worse fighters...) but in principle there's nothing wrong with the Codex and the way it works.
There is something vastly wrong with the way the codex works, actually. Specifically, that is the fact that it was obviously designed and released as a test run for the real marine codex, and effectively features built-in obsolescence. Every codex should be conceived and designed from the ground up to stand on its own; they shouldn't be bastard testing grounds for future books.

Ozendorph
26-02-2010, 19:13
There is something vastly wrong with the way the codex works, actually. Specifically, that is the fact that it was obviously designed and released as a test run for the real marine codex, and effectively features built-in obsolescence. Every codex should be conceived and designed from the ground up to stand on its own; they shouldn't be bastard testing grounds for future books.

True that. +1

Thommy H
26-02-2010, 19:51
There is something vastly wrong with the way the codex works, actually. Specifically, that is the fact that it was obviously designed and released as a test run for the real marine codex, and effectively features built-in obsolescence. Every codex should be conceived and designed from the ground up to stand on its own; they shouldn't be bastard testing grounds for future books.

Which would make sense if we assume the test was a failure - instead, all of the things that Codex: Dark Angels got right are things that made it not only into Codex: Space Marines, but also almost every other Codex and Armies book thereafter. I'm specifically thinking about special characters unlocking variant builds, which was pioneered by the Dark Angels. So it was only a "test" in the sense that it was the first book to try out some of these things, and the designers didn't know for certain that they'd work. But they did - or at least they obviously think they did, because they were carried through. Only Space Marines got more stuff because a) their Codex came later and b) their book is supposed to represent 990 Chapters, not just a handful.

Again, I'm not being an apologist for some of the flaws. I myself play with a hybrid list (in other words, I get nice storm shields and WS 6 commanders...) in the same way that a lot (?) of Inquisition players use the modern stats for assault cannons and such. So there's room for improvement - or at least updating - but the basic structure of the army, and the things is has, only make them a fraction less competitive than Space Marines, as a whole. They're not vastly disadvantaged, nor is the Codex a joke: they're just not quite as good, on average, if you build an exactly equivalent force from C:SM.

But why would you do that? Why even use the Dark Angels Codex if you're just going to play with a list you can make with Codex: Space Marines? That's my point.

Starchild
26-02-2010, 20:08
As a fan of Techmarines, I have to say the Dark Angels have the best Techmarines hands down.

Designers like Mat Ward can power creep new books all they want, but when they take a wound from a model which should always have at least two, that's where I draw the line. Carrying so much gear makes any Techmarine a veritable fire magnet, and having one wound is just lame.

Not only did Mr. Ward take away a wound, he denied the Techmarine's retinue some options. I like being able to take 4 plasma cannons or 4 heavy bolters (or a mix) in a Techmarine's retinue; it's like getting a bonus Devastator squad without having to use a precious heavy support slot.

I'm looking forward to a distinctive Dark Angels codex, but if they nerf my Techmarines, I will not be pleased. :skull:

Balerion
26-02-2010, 20:24
They're not vastly disadvantaged, nor is the Codex a joke: they're just not quite as good, on average, if you build an exactly equivalent force from C:SM.

But why would you do that? Why even use the Dark Angels Codex if you're just going to play with a list you can make with Codex: Space Marines? That's my point.
For the DA codex to warrant it's own continued existence it has to offer something []isignificantly[/i] distinct from all other marines codexes. This should include units, wargear, and army builds. The DA codex design just doesn't do enough in these regards.

Wolf-riding cavalry and commando scouts are exciting.

Flying tactical squads and psychotic deathtroopers are exciting.

Codex DA is simply a bore. Doublewing is the only thing it can do that other Marines can't, and Doublewing begins to taste stale quickly. Nobody wants to be constantly shackled to expensive, small units in order to make their army fun and unique.

The Doublewing concept should stick around, because it's a worthy one, but the codex needs extra things to differentiate it from other marines. Mortis Dreadnoughts are at the top of the list. Every other chapter gets to use their Dreadnought-of-choice. Why the frak don't DA? Especially when the idea is just sitting right there already. Why not a special Land Speeder variant or Predator?

Clinging to the idea that the DA are strictly beholden to the Codex Astartes is a crutch. Nobody with half a brain should care; the fluff is malleable, and constantly changing. What did the Codex Astartes say about Land Speeder Storm strikes before 2008? How come Tervigons were never encountered prior to last month? The Codex Astartes argument is simply a dose of haterade from people who don't want to see DA's get any new toys because it makes their own Marines seem to have a gap, or makes the DA more difficult to play against. I can't imagine any actual DA player rejecting new units/configurations on the basis of the Codex Astartes.

Thommy H
26-02-2010, 20:43
I thought this was a discussion about whether the current Dark Angels Codex was worthwhile on its own merits, not what a hypothetical future Codex should contain. I think we can all agree that the current book is lacking when compared to more modern Codecies - it was the first of a new breed, a foundation upon which later ideas were built - but that's no reason to act like it's a complete waste of paper. It still has its uses - they're just more limited than they once were, because other books do "basic Marines" better.

Juggalo
26-02-2010, 21:35
Sometimes, say once or month or so I think on Dark Angels, but I don't know why, before I really was opposed to them, but now I've just been thinking on them with some consideration. But why? Why are they so appealing?? How do they play? What makes them different from standard marines?
What makes them different is their terrible secret and hidden shame: under those robes, they aren't wearing any pants.

Perverts.

Thommy H
26-02-2010, 21:38
What's perverted about not wearing pants? You wouldn't get far in life if you constantly kept them on.

Real men wear dresses anyway.

CherryMan
26-02-2010, 21:45
I have a good 6k army of Dark Angels marines that I have given up on, and now days simply play with the Space marine dex of the week. Its so much simpler, and you can get you're unique style and character/units with a twist.

I'm (as we speak actually) modelling a character that will represent "Pedro Kantor" from the Dark Angels Veteran squad. Making up a new story line and renaming the wargear is just part of the fun!

Juggalo
26-02-2010, 23:13
What's perverted about not wearing pants?
Because the robes are not there to conceal their lack of pants, but rather those midgets they keep around. "Watchers in the Dark" my ass. That's where the squats really disappeared to.

Occulto
27-02-2010, 00:57
I thought this was a discussion about whether the current Dark Angels Codex was worthwhile on its own merits, not what a hypothetical future Codex should contain. I think we can all agree that the current book is lacking when compared to more modern Codecies - it was the first of a new breed, a foundation upon which later ideas were built - but that's no reason to act like it's a complete waste of paper. It still has its uses - they're just more limited than they once were, because other books do "basic Marines" better.

Like all codices it depends on what everyone else you're likely to face is using.

If you're in a cut-throat environment where everyone tools their list to the n-th degree, then a DA list is likely to be disadvantaged.

If you're in a more relaxed environment where everyone isn't building their list to top-table-at-the-GT level, then the differences are negligible.

FashaTheDog
27-02-2010, 01:19
Thought it would be interesting to throw together a Dark Angels army list I would be fine to use in a friendly game using units both have either in common or an equivalent of and then compare it to the Marine Codex. The points are Dark Angels/Marines:

135/140 Company Master/Captain - Power weapon, jump pack
130/125 Dreadnought - Assault cannon, heavy flamer
245/230 5 Terminators - Assault cannon
200/190 10 Marines - Power Claw, meltagun
35/35 Rhino
220/200 10 Marines - Power claw, plasma gun, plasma cannon
35/35 Rhino
220/200 10 Marines - Power claw, meltagun, lascannon
35/35 Rhino
65/60 Landspeeder - Multi-melta
269/215 10 Assault Marines - Power claw
305/300 10 Devastators - 4 Lascannons
1850/1765 Total

Codex Marines gets the same thing and an extra 85 points (barring math error) and my Terminators lose fearless and Deathwing Assault rules. While I do gain Combat Tactics, I also lose Rites of Battle so there is a bit of a trade-off there, but overall the difference in points for a list like this is just too high a premium on that and Deathwing Assault. Overall there are some things, as mentioned by others prior, that set them apart and a list that focuses upon those would be better suited than using Codex Dark Angels for running a "regular" list.

MadDoc
27-02-2010, 03:17
Codex Marines gets the same thing and an extra 85 points (barring math error) and my Terminators lose fearless and Deathwing Assault rules. While I do gain Combat Tactics, I also lose Rites of Battle so there is a bit of a trade-off there, but overall the difference in points for a list like this is just too high a premium on that and Deathwing Assault. Overall there are some things, as mentioned by others prior, that set them apart and a list that focuses upon those would be better suited than using Codex Dark Angels for running a "regular" list.

Your Devastators also gain a Signum (one shot a turn at BS 5) for free, and cost less all up on top of that. Not to mention the C:SM squads also have extra options for their Sergeants that their DA equivalents don't (but based on the background should) get.

FashaTheDog
27-02-2010, 05:41
Don't care about those and the other "details" as I am more concerned with what is being lost from the list's transition from Codex Dark Angels to Codex Ultramarines. The only reason I mentioned Combat Tactics at all was that Rites of Battle is not just flat out lost, it is, in effect, replaced. Most units in Codex Ultramarines have more options, such as the Dreadnoughts or Captain. The other side of that coin is that Dark Angels can take that special weapon at base size so that can be a fairly moderate loss in transition as now that five man meltagun squad needs another five guys or lose the meltagun while the Landspeeder squadron's reduction in maximum size from 5 to 3 is less noticable as it is rare to see someone fielding nine Landspeeders, let alone fifteen. However, these are "details" and not the scope of what it was that I had found interesting, although they too may be of interest in their own right.

Samus_aran115
27-02-2010, 05:44
I don't really know. I was glaring at the models today, asking myself... "what IS good about these things?"

I still don't have an answer..

Thommy H
27-02-2010, 09:20
Don't care about those and the other "details" as I am more concerned with what is being lost from the list's transition from Codex Dark Angels to Codex Ultramarines. The only reason I mentioned Combat Tactics at all was that Rites of Battle is not just flat out lost, it is, in effect, replaced. Most units in Codex Ultramarines have more options, such as the Dreadnoughts or Captain. The other side of that coin is that Dark Angels can take that special weapon at base size so that can be a fairly moderate loss in transition as now that five man meltagun squad needs another five guys or lose the meltagun while the Landspeeder squadron's reduction in maximum size from 5 to 3 is less noticable as it is rare to see someone fielding nine Landspeeders, let alone fifteen. However, these are "details" and not the scope of what it was that I had found interesting, although they too may be of interest in their own right.

Well, like I said, if you build an army that can be fielded by another Codex and it comes out cheaper, that doesn't prove that much.

A thought experiment:

A Chaos Space Marine player puts together an army consisting entirely of dudes in power armour. He adds a Vindicator, just gives his Lord a power weapon and combi-weapon or something, maybe adds some bikes. He tots up his points using C:CSM, and then translates his army into C:SM (which he can, because he's just chosen some Space Marines - no Chaos stuff) and finds (for the sake of argument) that it comes out cheaper with C:SM, and he has a load more cool options with that book too.

Does that mean Chaos Space Marines are obsolete? "You can do the same for less" is only relevant if you do do the same. See what I'm saying? You can't complain that a book is pointless if you don't actually use any of the things that make it unique in the first place!

Now I'm not saying that all of the stuff that Dark Angels get makes up for WS 6 commanders, decent storm shields, signums (signa?), free flamers, thunderfire cannons and all the rest of it, just that it's a bit bizarre to have an army, not use any of its tricks, and then declare it to have been utterly superseded by Space Marines. As I've pointed out, my particular collection of models doesn't work with any other Codex, because I don't see the point in the equivalent of Salamanders-minus-meltas or Crimson Fists-minus-Sternguard. If you have a variant army, use it!

That said, if you're just using pure Battle Company, then you might as well use Codex: Space Marines - but you only have yourself to blame for the Dark Angels Codex being obsolete for your army!

Rated_lexxx
27-02-2010, 12:37
What I like about the dark angels was there background. Trying to find redemption. The models are awesome. I was thinking about getting a new army because My necrons are awful right now. I thought about dark angels did some research and found out there just as bad

Lord Malorne
27-02-2010, 13:04
I like the models, not the paint scheme or background though, that sucks.