PDA

View Full Version : A Universe all of our own...



howlinmonkey
22-02-2010, 09:33
I've come up with an idea that I want to share with you lot. Now,please before you say that's ridiculous and won't work, take some time to think about ok? And please try and keep replies sensible!
Year after year Warseer is filled up with things like 'Oh I wish Gw would do this',or'Why the hell did they do that.' Whatever. Try this: we've got the armies,rulebooks,codexes etc. Do we really need to toe the line? What if game clubs worldwide combined via the net to run the 40k universe? Now, before you rush to reply,THINK ABOUT WHAT I'M SAYING. Because of the net there is worldwide contact between a huge network of 40k players,why not use it for creating an 'alive' 40k universe? Online games are huge so surely running an almost realtime 40k universe where 40k clubs battles actually make an impression on the 40k universe will also work? This is the way for the fluff to be more active on the tabletop,rather than just background material. Clubs can form networks easily and one club each year could be designated as historians and record keepers,compiling information sent from all the other clubs. Now again,THINK ABOUT WHAT I'm SAYING!
1) We will be able directly to influence a potentially massive,much bigger than GW's own campaigns which only run for a few months,or at least until their latest sales push ends! The 40k universe I'm talking about will run and run:IT'LL BE ALIVE.
2) This might be the only way that we can get GW back to listening to the players about what we need and what they should do. It'll be our universe and we will determine what happens to it!
Please keep it sensible,I'd really like some constructive thoughts on this idea,as I believe that it is a real way of getting GW to listen to us,after all, they will be on the outside looking in!

Vampiric16
22-02-2010, 09:38
Sounds like it could work in theory. Only problem of course is the hundreds of battle reports flooding in where Calgar is killed off.

howlinmonkey
22-02-2010, 09:48
Yes,but think about this way: If it was set up so that only one club had control of a character,say for a year, that would avoid what you suggested.

EmperorEternalXIX
22-02-2010, 09:50
It might not be that bad if you take into account the rulebook's "models that are removed as casualties are not always dead..." caveat.

Olith
22-02-2010, 09:54
Lawsuits would fly because it would be published material using their IP and they can't let lose control of it. It's a nice idea, and one I have considered myself, if you could get the balance right and determine how to apply such issues as Vampiric put forth. I suppose the biggest problem as far as actually playing through such a thing is fabricated reports, so you are relying heavily on a trust system.

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
22-02-2010, 09:56
Sounds like it could work in theory. Only problem of course is the hundreds of battle reports flooding in where Calgar is killed off.

At last!:)



"[...] and one club each year could be designated as historians and record keepers,compiling information sent from all the other clubs."
More seriously, have you any idea of the work it represents to make a synthesis of all registered Battle Reports?
It takes lot of full-time working people to GW to achieve this result during each summer campaign. A club won't be able to handle it.

e2055261
22-02-2010, 09:58
Anything to kill off Vulcan Hestan has my vote! In fact several marine chapters could be in trouble...

Lord Damocles
22-02-2010, 10:29
We will be able directly to influence a potentially massive,much bigger than GW's own campaigns which only run for a few months,or at least until their latest sales push ends! The 40k universe I'm talking about will run and run:IT'LL BE ALIVE.
What happens if you're not part of one of these clubs?
What happens if GW dosn't sign up to this scheme (which they won't)? It'd be like the Medusa V Lucius the Eternal paradox debarkle all over again.


This might be the only way that we can get GW back to listening to the players about what we need and what they should do. It'll be our universe and we will determine what happens to it!
You have seen some of the 'improvements' to the setting which are called for around t'internet?

Who would decide which background shifts occur? After all, you can't have every decision dictated by in-game results. What's to stop Joe Nobody declaring that the Void Dragon wakes up and snacks on the Emperor? (Because that would cause some serious in-universe problems).


Also... the 40K'verse isn't 'our universe', as 'we' don't own the IP.

howlinmonkey
22-02-2010, 10:54
I would suggest a confederation of clubs to handle the running of the universe so to speak.Players could affiliate themselves to clubs online OR; the overseeing confederation could register the individual.Fake reports could be curbed by a club or official password.
Does GW now own the universe?NO! They have copyright on their property but they do not have copyright on peoples' own imagination to invent. Surely they cannot have a problem with a made up names' universe?How could they take legal action against that.Why would we need GW to sign up to it? Its not going to be official,its not looking for any endorsement.The confederation would collate the information and analyse it,and determine what the background shift is. A set grounding would be set up to prevent players doing anything crazy like the void dragon.The idea is to interact with the story better,not bring about the end of the game!

Mini77
22-02-2010, 11:08
Does GW now own the universe?NO! They have copyright on their property but they do not have copyright on peoples' own imagination to invent. Surely they cannot have a problem with a made up names' universe?How could they take legal action against that.Why would we need GW to sign up to it?

If you populate your created universe with GW characters, armies and affiliations they mostly can take legal action.

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
22-02-2010, 11:20
@howlinmonkey:
Since GW IS THE OWNER of the following words:
Space Marines (and all chapters' names mentioned in one of their books), Chaos Space Marines (and all chapters' names mentioned in one of their books), Imperial Guard, Tau, Orks, Eldars, Dark Eldars Tyrannids, Necrons,
Of the names of all characters mentionned in their books,
Of the names of almost all pieces of equipment (bolters, all vehicles names, etc...),
And much, much more,
I don't see how they would not be allowed to take legal actions... And win them!

Thanatos_elNyx
22-02-2010, 11:21
BattleTech run storyline events all the time and they do it properly.

Characters can be killed but only in events where it is stipulated that his life is on the line. So if there were a campaign there Calgars life was on the line, everyone would know before hand. And he'd have to be killed in over half of all the registered battles, before he would suffer storyline death, etc.

Sternguard777
22-02-2010, 11:36
Sounds quite good in theory, its exicution thats throwing it off with things like GW Legal and named characters it could work but youd have to work out the bugs first, good luck

Eldoriath
22-02-2010, 12:00
Not really a bad idea. Who cares if the evolving events are considered canon, it would be fun to see the progress and what happens. =)

MadDoc
22-02-2010, 12:19
Considering some of the abominable tripe produced by fans "who know better than GW (hur, hur my Army is the bestest, etc. :eyebrows:)" floating about the net, you'll excuse me if I don't join the chorus praising this as a great idea.

More power to you... but regardless of good intentions you're never going to please all of the people, you're going to have a nightmare time trying to keep personal bias out of the evolution/rewriting of things (want to see what fanboyism let loose looks like? See Matt Ward's C:SM :skull:), and you're never going to get GW blithely allowing the unauthorised usage and wholesale bastardisation of their IP in a very public way.

Shadowheart
22-02-2010, 12:21
Someone's going to have to put their money where their mouth is. Hundreds of clubs, thousands of people worldwide aren't just going to get together and commit to a project that has no substance.

You'd need some kind of starting point for this to take off from. Say for instance you talked a dozen or so clubs into this, got yourself a fairly professional website and got a small-scale version of your iHammer 40K running. Then it might catch on and grow. It might even hold someone's interest. But a plan without any practical basis is just wishful thinking.

Not that it's something I'd wish for.

MadDoc
22-02-2010, 12:33
And the second someone gets that professional looking website up GW Legal will rightly slap them with a C&D Order, which if ignored will result in GW taking legal action over their blatant IP infringement...

Its GWs IP, something which takes that IP as blatantly as this, and effectively takes it as its own, doing with it as it will, with no consideration for GW's clear rights is doomed to get the attention of their Lawyers.

You couldn't even be passed off as fan-fic, the OP even states that one of the intentions of this is to try and force GW's hand, and impose "our" view on them, forcing them to capitulate to "our" usurping of their IP. :eyebrows:

I mean seriously?

It seems a little suss to me...

Helicon_One
22-02-2010, 13:12
And then we could organise all the kids to rise up and overthrow the government, right?

This is one of those nice ideas that people have all the time which, in practise, would last for about 3 seconds until some ego-clash demolished it all. OK, fine, so from now on "we" will determine what happens in 40K. Who is "we"? You? Me? Grand Tourney winners? Warseer mods? The first time whoever is runing the show introduces some change that someone else fundamentally disagrees with (which will be the first change made and every single one after it, because 40K is full of conflicting ideas about what it should and shouldn't be) this grand unified global movement is going to splinter.

Khar
22-02-2010, 13:36
While idea itself is great, I highly doubt it could be done with 40k. [or WFB, for that matter] Firstly, there would still be a horde of people against progressing the background. They'd probably be the majority. For those playing living version of the universe, fluff in codices and rulebooks would be outdated in short time, leading to some weird effects. Not to mention fluff contradictions that could [and probably would] rise up, without some higher authority to control this changes, which GW wouldn't ever be.
So, yeah, I'd like to see a real living world as a background for a game, I'm just afraid it'd need a brand, new game.

ashc
22-02-2010, 14:13
Between you, your friends, and local club/playgroup you can do whatever you so please with the background given, and advance it how you wish.

What you propose brings up far too many technical/legal/ethical/logistical issues.

Darkspear
22-02-2010, 14:19
Many WHFB fansites have campaigns that keep the fluff moving, so far GW has not sued them yet. Examples include D.net's flesh and blood campaign, Da-warpath.com's Animosity campaigns and several others.

I believe the idea can work if it is not too ambitious coz people will quarrel over views. It is better for an army specific fansite to push the projects forward.

carldooley
22-02-2010, 14:21
Lawsuits would fly because it would be published material using their IP and they can't let lose control of it. It's a nice idea, and one I have considered myself, if you could get the balance right and determine how to apply such issues as Vampiric put forth. I suppose the biggest problem as far as actually playing through such a thing is fabricated reports, so you are relying heavily on a trust system.

oooh, you mean that GW actually has Original Ideas??? you know the kind of quagmire that comes from trying to own the IP & copyrights to everything in sight and within the breadth of imagination? Here are a couple of the more well known ones:

"Let's get ready to rumble!!!" - oops, I have to send a quarter to whats his face in the WWF.

"That's Hot!!!" - oops, a quarter goes to Paris Hilton

"You're Fired!!!" - oops, a quarter sent to Trump.

as for GW IP - has anyone seen whether Michael Kozoll (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083944/) has ever filed suit over Marbo?

carldooley
22-02-2010, 14:25
Many WHFB fansites have campaigns that keep the fluff moving, so far GW has not sued them yet. Examples include D.net's flesh and blood campaign, Da-warpath.com's Animosity campaigns and several others.

I believe the idea can work if it is not too ambitious coz people will quarrel over views. It is better for an army specific fansite to push the projects forward.

any possibility that they(GW) are monitoring Warhammer Online for player trends and world events?

Thanatos_elNyx
22-02-2010, 14:34
"Let's get ready to rumble!!!" - oops, I have to send a quarter to whats his face in the WWF.

World Wide Fund?

Case in point, I think you mean WWE! :evilgrin:

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
22-02-2010, 15:23
oooh, you mean that GW actually has Original Ideas??? you know the kind of quagmire that comes from trying to own the IP & copyrights to everything in sight and within the breadth of imagination?

Speaking of this, some of the names with GW "TM" or "copyrights" are only protected in a very restrictice scope, at least in France.
For example: "Imperial Guard". Since it also was the name of a part of Napoleon I Army (and others), this word could be used without GW's authorization in contexts not related to WH40K.
You can't protect common names. Brand, logos, new words, but not common names. "Elves" cannot be said to belong to GW. "Eldars" can.

Nonetheless, the idea of a permanent, world-wide, fluff altering WH40K campaign, leaded without their authorization, is by far covered by copyrights.

And when you see how bitterly some minor points of rules or backgrounds are discussed here, on Warseer, could you imagine how the fluff created by such a campaign would be accepted?
It would not unify (?) the WH40K community. It would tear it apart, IMHO.

howlinmonkey
23-02-2010, 08:47
Ok, I take the points about legal matters. It was only my suggestion on how the game might integrate the fluff more and make the 40k universe more involving.Personally, I think the game is stagnating.If you think about it,the only 'boosts' that the game gets is when new minis or codexes appear;correct me if I'm wrong but that surely does not count as progress? I am getting fed up playing meaningless battles where you turn up at a club with the same points costed armies and it has no impact. I like 40k but believe it needs to progress to a new level. I'll leave with this: Ok my idea would probably be shot down bt GW legal. As GW employees are rumoured to use warseer I ask you this; SHOULDN'T YOU BE DOING THIS ANYWAY? HELLO? HELLO?

ashc
23-02-2010, 09:56
Then run your own campaigns, in their own system on your own planets. Make your games mean something to you.

Cheeslord
23-02-2010, 10:50
If you are serious about starting this, I suggest asking someone with real legal experience as some of the advice here borders on the paranoid. All you seem to want to do is run a big campaign. Playing games in it would always be optional for gaming clubs (I imagine there would be plenty of out-of-campaign games when people want to field whatever heroes they like).

I don't imagine it would be in GWs interest to sue people for running a campaign even if they could (and you wouldn't necessarily need to duplicate any copyright material to run it). The problem would be persuading people to join it, most especially if this means restricting use of special characters as many people love using certain characters in their army. If you tell them they can't because that character is somewhere else (or dead) they are not likely to be happy.

Mark.

Olith
23-02-2010, 11:35
oooh, you mean that GW actually has Original Ideas??? you know the kind of quagmire that comes from trying to own the IP & copyrights to everything in sight and within the breadth of imagination? Here are a couple of the more well known ones:

"Let's get ready to rumble!!!" - oops, I have to send a quarter to whats his face in the WWF.

"That's Hot!!!" - oops, a quarter goes to Paris Hilton

"You're Fired!!!" - oops, a quarter sent to Trump.

as for GW IP - has anyone seen whether Michael Kozoll (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083944/) has ever filed suit over Marbo?

The legality and morality don't matter. If someone created this project GW would force them to shut down. Unless someone really wants a legal battle over a 40k campaign. Also GW's IP is the amalgamation and re-imaging of ideas that together form the 40k universe. You can't take the 40k universe and use that as the main basis for your own things when you take it to publishing something. You can use concepts of their ideas, just like they did.

howlinmonkey
23-02-2010, 11:42
Cheeslord,I'm not looking to start a big campaign,believe me that is not what I'm aiming for. Think of it as a living and breathing 40k universe,not something that stops when a campaign or even a single battle ends,just like all the online games like warcraft etc.Whenever a player goes online he/she will see what is happening at that moment in the unvierse,the state of play. The crucial thing is the player will be able to interact/change events solely by taking part.Think about this;most games that you will mean absolutely squat when they are over.This way you will leave your mark on the universe.

Inquisitor S.
23-02-2010, 13:11
It would not unify (?) the WH40K community. It would tear it apart, IMHO.

Can't see that happening because most people wouldn't even care. And as some people have already stated above, most fan-produced stuff is utter crap (no offence to specific people, I just avoid everything with the word "fan" in it it like the plague). And I infinitely prefer to have GW in charge of changes than the users, this is the internetz, THIS IS MADNESS! Erm, sorry for that, got carried away there ;)


that you will mean absolutely squat when they are over.This way you will leave your mark on the universe.
How can you leave a mark when it "means absolutely squat"?

Shadowheart
23-02-2010, 13:19
Think about this;most games that you will mean absolutely squat when they are over.This way you will leave your mark on the universe.
I assume you're talking about your proposed fictional universe. What do you suppose that will mean when it's over?

Perhaps I'm not with the times on this, but I don't like the idea of posting what I do online. I don't feel the need to tell the internet who I know or what I'm doing - I certainly don't feel that what I do doesn't count unless it's online somewhere.

Like you keep telling us, think about what you're saying. Do you really think games would become more meaningful to people if they could influence a fictional setting?

EldarWolf
23-02-2010, 14:50
You can't protect common names. Brand, logos, new words, but not common names. "Elves" cannot be said to belong to GW. "Eldars" can.



Eldar cannot, as GW 'borrowed' it from Tolkein.

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
23-02-2010, 15:04
Eldar cannot, as GW 'borrowed' it from Tolkein.

Totally forgot that... The name OromŽ gave to Elves...
I'm ashamed.:cries:

Next time I forget my brain somewhere, will anybody be nice enough to bring it back to me?

Pink Horror
23-02-2010, 16:39
Cheeslord,I'm not looking to start a big campaign,believe me that is not what I'm aiming for. Think of it as a living and breathing 40k universe,not something that stops when a campaign or even a single battle ends,just like all the online games like warcraft etc.

The only effect a MMORPG character really has on the universe is augmenting his own stats. If you raid some cave and kill an ancient dragon, is that dragon now dead for all the other players? When you finish a world-altering quest, do other players notice? Or do they just get the same quest? There are sometimes a few superficial things that the players can change, but most of the world is static. The developers have learned that, despite what players might say they want, the key to these games are designing static adventures for soloing and small groups. That is how most people want to play. The "massively multiplayer" aspect is just a sideshow to the core gameplay.

Crooky
23-02-2010, 17:02
The organization required to make this work would be massive. Who gets to decide what conflicts happen where? Who decides which way the setting moves, if at all? Who is going to 'referee' it all to make sure nobody ends up ruining everything?

Not to mention the fact that, as several people have said, most fan-created stories are complete crap.

I'll predict that should this idea ever get off the ground, within two months the entire setting looks nothing like it does currently; Terra gets invaded during Abaddon's 14th Black Crusade, then saved when the Emperor wakes up again to lead another Great Crusade, Ultramarines break off and form their own super-duper Imperium which the Tau join for the Greater Good, the Hive Mind gets corrupted by Chaos so now there are demonic Chaos Tyranids running around... Madness? This is WARHAMMMMMMMMMAAARRR!!

johnwayne
23-02-2010, 17:31
just start a simple website, with a lot of engaging short background stories and an easy way for contributers to add content and batreps. In a later stage, add a forum or a posting wall and you're off.
Maybe add a few 'official' battlegrounds where wars are going on (with some nifty and characterful special rules to give them some destinction - a weather system springs to mind) bewteen a few factions at a time, so batreps can be guided into a broader war without them getting lost into a big pile of bland battles. It could actually make the WH universe feel like a universe of war, instead of a universe of 'excuses for skirmishes' :p

And if the GW party police makes a fuss (which I doubht they will), use it as free advertisement for your organisation and change the name of the universe into HammerWar - the distinct universe, and change the name of each of the factions. The KaiserReich, Space Elves, the Space Orcks, Space Bugs, Space Cows, Space Robots Actually, you can let your forum decide, maybe that's a better solution:p

Lord Damocles
23-02-2010, 17:47
And if the GW party police makes a fuss (which I doubht they will), use it as free advertisement for your organisation and change the name of the universe into HammerWar - the distinct universe, and change the name of each of the factions. The KaiserReich, Space Elves, the Space Orcks, Space Bugs, Space Cows, Space Robots Actually, you can let your forum decide, maybe that's a better solution:p
Wouldn't changing all the names utterly defeat the point of the whole enterprise?

MadDoc
24-02-2010, 00:21
Wouldn't changing all the names utterly defeat the point of the whole enterprise?

But that way they can skirt the law and steal GW's IP and use it for their own devices...

How can that possibly be bad? :rolleyes:

Personally, if anybody were to try and rest control of the development of GW's IP this blatantly, I'd could quite happily sit back and watch as GW legal tore them a well deserved new one.

For personal, or even local club, use this might be acceptable. But to take GW's IP and usurp it, publishing and altering it outside of GW's control in such a global and very public way as the OP suggests is just asking for trouble.

Dakkagor
24-02-2010, 00:25
considering how huge and undetailed the 41st millenium is, why not just do a sector project, come up with your own named characters for your club, then tell us about it?

The results are almost certain to be better than trying to hijack GW's IP with an internet collective of raving fanboys.

Pink Horror
24-02-2010, 01:51
The results are almost certain to be better than trying to hijack GW's IP with an internet collective of raving fanboys.

If an Internet collective of raving fanboys wanted to hijack something, I think they would have more fun with the rules.