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MetalGecko23
24-02-2010, 00:45
So I bought some Tamiya acrylic paint and some Reaper Master-Class paint and was wondering how they stack up to Citadel Paints. What makes them different? Are they better of worse? Has anybody used them?

Lord of Worms
24-02-2010, 00:54
Drop-bottle pots are intrinsically superior to those stupid lids GW uses. The Reaper and Vallejo lines are all comparable if not better to the Citadel Paints. All you need is the cheat-sheet to find out what matches up with what.

MetalGecko23
24-02-2010, 00:59
All I have seen of Reaper is they have superior metals. Vallejo's paints I don't know were to get them any more.

nightgant98c
24-02-2010, 03:39
alot of paints are just as good, if not better than citadel's. But if you're already using them, it can be tough to change over, due to color matching. I've never seen this cheat sheet, but it would make things easier.

Tenken
24-02-2010, 03:50
Citadel paints, outside of the washes, are universally pretty crappy. I use *******' craft paints more often than citadel's and they cover in less coats, and smoother. Vallejo pry makes the best paints for the cost. I've heard good things about P3, but I haven't used it yet.

Go down to your local michaels or hobby lobby though and just pick up Americana craft paints. Well don't get any light colors (reds yellows or oranges), all the darker colors cover just as well, if not better than citadel paints, and are like a dollar, maybe 2 I forget, for a bottle about 3 times the size of citadel paints.

burad
24-02-2010, 04:00
I use Tamiya paints for additional colors that Citadel does not sell. Gunmetal, for instance. Tamiya makes a great gunmetal.

The Orange
24-02-2010, 04:10
All I have seen of Reaper is they have superior metals.

That's the first I've herd of this, definitely gonna check it out when I get a chance. Good metallics in a dropper bottle? Hell yea :evilgrin: Anyone else with a similar experience?

Iverald
24-02-2010, 04:33
Vallejo has imho worse metals. Too glossy, tend to poorly interact with citadel washes, which imho are a must-have for people painting armies. I've yet to use p3 metallics, but at first glance they seem as good as citadel.

As for standard colour paints, it depnds what properties of paints you are looking for. If you glaze a lot, or need thinned paints for feathering, then citadels are for the job. They also have the virtue of being bright and lively, which is quite important for taabletop models. Deficiences in opacity are well made up for by foundation range, with duller colours for those who this sort of style.

Vallejo game colour are duller than citadels, have better coverage, especially whites, beiges and reds, but when watered down they seem to loose consistency at some point (it ceases to matter if you use juices, or more precisely coloured water in many many laters) so it is best to use media, such as thinner and/or matt medium. Oh, and glaze medium is priceless!

Vallejo Model Colour is also worth considering, having a massive colour range, but the paints are even more duller.

P3s seem to lose negative properties of VGC, retaining excellent opacity, when diluted are as translucent as citadels and have extended working time ideal for blending (similarly to enamel paints) to boot.


EDIT: It would be great if anyone would post any comparison of Andrea paints, which look good, albeit slightly too expensive.

Pink Horror
24-02-2010, 04:47
I was an acrylic painter before I discovered miniatures. I've tried pots, and I use them sometimes, but I still most enjoy Liquitex Heavy Body. I often use craft paints on on scenery. Craft paints seem to cover sand and cardboard and those kinds of things very well, and it's nice to use something cheap when I'm painting a large surface that I purposefully want to be dull. I can mix colors by eye, correcting for the change as they dry, so I never worry about color matching.

Samus_aran115
24-02-2010, 04:52
Citadel paints, outside of the washes, are universally pretty crappy. I use *******' craft paints more often than citadel's and they cover in less coats, and smoother. Vallejo pry makes the best paints for the cost. I've heard good things about P3, but I haven't used it yet.

Go down to your local michaels or hobby lobby though and just pick up Americana craft paints. Well don't get any light colors (reds yellows or oranges), all the darker colors cover just as well, if not better than citadel paints, and are like a dollar, maybe 2 I forget, for a bottle about 3 times the size of citadel paints.

eww. Gross. Americana, deltaceram coat and those other craft paints are feh as hell. I can't find a decent black that even comes close to chaos black. Nor can I find a decent blood red substitute, shining gold..Goblin green, skull white...The list goes on and on.

IMO, citadel paints are well worth the money.

Olja
24-02-2010, 05:02
I tried Tamiya paints about ten years ago. I really didn't like them. They didn't spread evenly, dried too fast, and really stank. But maybe the've changed since then.

I do use Vallejo and like the results. The problem is that I can only get them over the web (or take a very long car drive). For large projects, such as tanks, I like to use GW paints. I don't have to worry about running out.

I'm not complaining about the GW pop tops. I still remember putting my paints in a vice and using a wrench to open them. The pop tops are A BIG IMPROVEMENT.:)

Lord of Worms
24-02-2010, 05:06
Those washes are an obscene ripoff. They're such a watery, crappy product. People should learn how to make their own washes. Go on awesomepaintjob.com

Samus_aran115
24-02-2010, 05:10
Those washes are an obscene ripoff. They're such a watery, crappy product. People should learn how to make their own washes. Go on awesomepaintjob.com

Eh... Making washes is a lot of work. Why bother when I can spend more moneyzz?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Please, I beg you all. Stay away from delta ceram coat black...It chips off like frozen skin on an undead.

Tenken
24-02-2010, 05:11
eww. Gross. Americana, deltaceram coat and those other craft paints are feh as hell. I can't find a decent black that even comes close to chaos black. Nor can I find a decent blood red substitute, shining gold..Goblin green, skull white...The list goes on and on.

IMO, citadel paints are well worth the money.

Then you need to look harder. Especially with black paint, black is black is black. I use apple barrel black and it's just as good as chaos black for 1/4th the price for 3 times the paint, and apple barrel paints are crap! Craft paints aren't any good if you're painting show models, granted, but honestly for table top quality armies they're fantastic. As long as you're priming your models you could pry paint them with berries and grass and still make it look half decent after a wash.:p

I'll be the first to admit though if you want light colors you have to get good paints because light colors tend to be very thin. I only buy really bright colors from GW/vallejo/whatever else, for everything from green on up I use craft paints, and they look just fine. I'm sure if you saw any of my models you wouldn't even realize I used craft paints.

Lord of Worms
24-02-2010, 05:14
Eh... Making washes is a lot of work. Why bother when I can spend more moneyzz?:rolleyes::rolleyes:


Well, you could spend $15, and make washes of all of your paints in about 5 minutes each. Or you could spend $5 a wash that will only paint one squad. "Specially Formulated" for maximum stinginess and ripoff.

Samus_aran115
24-02-2010, 05:20
Well, you could spend $15, and make washes of all of your paints in about 5 minutes each. Or you could spend $5 a wash that will only paint one squad. "Specially Formulated" for maximum stinginess and ripoff.

(psst... I was agreeing with you.lol.didntcha see my /rolleyes ?)

Anyway, yeah. The washes are a bit much. It's a shame there's really no good competition for them.

Tenken
24-02-2010, 05:24
I miss the inks.:cries:

Samus_aran115
24-02-2010, 05:25
Then you need to look harder. Especially with black paint, black is black is black. I use apple barrel black and it's just as good as chaos black for 1/4th the price for 3 times the paint, and apple barrel paints are crap! Craft paints aren't any good if you're painting show models, granted, but honestly for table top quality armies they're fantastic. As long as you're priming your models you could pry paint them with berries and grass and still make it look half decent after a wash.:p

I'll be the first to admit though if you want light colors you have to get good paints because light colors tend to be very thin. I only buy really bright colors from GW/vallejo/whatever else, for everything from green on up I use craft paints, and they look just fine. I'm sure if you saw any of my models you wouldn't even realize I used craft paints.

Yeah. My experiences with bright colored craft paints really turned me off. The second I used citadel white, they got my vote. Shining gold too. Craft golds seen to clump up too much compared to shining gold.

Dunno. I see your points though so I'll take your word that vallejos are good. My terminators are done in a craft paint, and they look pretty good compared to my other termies done in citadel paints. So there is a pratctial value to craft paints.

Iverald
24-02-2010, 05:31
Well, you could spend $15, and make washes of all of your paints in about 5 minutes each. Or you could spend $5 a wash that will only paint one squad. "Specially Formulated" for maximum stinginess and ripoff.


I beg to differ. The washes have different medium and the effect is hard to emulate through any other means. If you want black wash, you can simply try to dliute a black paint, but the effect will be different as the particles are larger in the case of standard paint and it will result in heavier opacity and rarely creating a nice gradient given by the wash, which is VERY easy to achieve and control.

:wtf: Don't tell me you are pouring the wash straight form the pot on your minis. They don't run out a fraction that fast. :eyebrows:

djinn8
24-02-2010, 05:32
I use P3 paints for the most part, and they are pretty good, but their are some problems I've noted.

The metallics are terrible IMO. The paint and particals don't mix very well and when you paint it on a model the particals tend to run to places you don't want them. Also the paints, which are of a fairly slimy texture, seem to dry a lot faster than Citadel paints when on the pallet. The only reason I would recomend P3 is because it has a very unique subdued and subtle colour to the paints when they dry. The colours look far more realistic than the more vibrant Citadel colours. Sadly this fact somewhat limits the range as it means that while it has a fantastic range of browns, grey, reds and whites, the more vibrant colours like the blues, greens and yellows are either lacking in variety or are useless as they don't mix well with the rest of the range. Of those colours green is by far the worst of the bunch. I hate painting green with P3 paints.

I realise that it might seem like I'm being a bit down of P3 by saying the above, but I wouldn't use them almost exclusivly if they were crap. Rather I'm trying to say that they are more specialised and give of a certain vibe that might not be suitable for certain paint schemes and/or painting styles. They suit me fine however since I like to paint with a darker and more analogus style and I paint using NMM rather than metallics.

ED: also I should note that I don't know whether P3 have a range of inks/washes etc, as I never use anything other than basic paints.

(Analogus? Is that the correct word? I mean the opposite of contrasting)

Lord of Worms
24-02-2010, 05:45
I beg to differ. The washes have different medium and the effect is hard to emulate through any other means. If you want black wash, you can simply try to dliute a black paint, but the effect will be different as the particles are larger in the case of standard paint and it will result in heavier opacity and rarely creating a nice gradient given by the wash, which is VERY easy to achieve and control.

:wtf: Don't tell me you are pouring the wash straight form the pot on your minis. They don't run out a fraction that fast. :eyebrows:

You can buy wash medium. Go on that site I posted. My friend made me Copper/Bronze Patina wash and it kicks ass. It cost about 20 cents worth of a material for a GW pot of it.

Iverald
24-02-2010, 05:46
ED: also I should note that I don't know whether P3 have a range of inks/washes etc, as I never use anything other than basic paints.

(Analogus? Is that the correct word? I mean the opposite of contrasting)

They have some inks and washes, which are similar to inks: armour wash (nearly black), flesh wash, red ink, yellow ink, turquoise ink, I don't remember anything else. I used the armor wash and it's inferior to citadel washes. Dunno 'bout the inks, tho.

I know that this seems kinda trolling, but thinning p3 paints slightly and keeping them well closed prevents them from drying and becoming slimy. Well kept they are buttery, but it changes when thinned.

EDIT: Ido agree on with you on blue and green paints. No good at all.

"Analogus" is correct in this context as far as my BA-level English goes. ;)

EDIT 2:
@ Lord of Worms: those yield a nice effect indeed. Too bad getting the needed materals would cost me much more, due to my location.

djinn8
24-02-2010, 06:01
I don't suppose someone could reckomend a good set of green and blue paints that would mesh well with P3? Not citadel though since I don't like the pots.

Iverald
24-02-2010, 06:13
Apart form Citadel, Vallejo Game Colour is the way to go. For even darker colours go for Vallejo Model Colour. VGC are basically Citadel equivalents but they got slighly different hues and produce different mixes.

http://www.acrylicosvallejo.com/

I still swear by C. enchanted blue and dark angels green. Ironically drop pots tend to clog which is quite irritating, especially when later there are bits of drid paint in the pot.

Pink Horror
24-02-2010, 06:29
"Analogus" is correct in this context as far as my BA-level English goes. ;)

sarcasm? :wtf:

Commissar Bone
24-02-2010, 07:06
Liquitex FTW. I'm *still* working on a 4.65oz tube of Mars Black I've had for 15 years. This stuff never ends.

Bloodknight
24-02-2010, 07:34
sarcasm?

Probably not, except that he missed the missing O, says my BA degree level in English ;)

@topic: I use Citadel mostly, with the occasional pot of Coat d'Arms, they're awesome. Craft paints I'd only use to paint terrain, I'm not much into smudging models with paint that's not made for the purpose.

MetalGecko23
24-02-2010, 07:49
Well I tried Tamiya flat black and white. It seems the white is about the same a Citadel and the black is kind of cool. It has a almost charcoal like look to it where chaos black is sometimes a little glossy.
I got a Reaper Master-Class gunmetal blue that looks wicked.....its just I have no idea what to use it for..:confused:. Awesome for necrons but thats about it.
Though Reaper had a fairly large selection of colors and Tamiya has a ton of good "military type" greens. Though the Reaper drop top is sweet never used that style before.
My problem is Tamiya and Reaper are the easiest paints for me to get right now because the GW I went to is closed down now. :cries:

Mini77
24-02-2010, 08:06
GW is bad. Everything else is great.

marv335
24-02-2010, 09:09
GW metallic paints are widely acknowledged to be great, I use a mix of GW and Vallejio paints, with winsor and newton artists inks (which are identical to GW washes BTW)
As to GW paint longevity, I've got some of my original paint, still in good condition that I bought about 20 years ago. still use it. Metallic purple. great for edging power weapons.

Lord of Worms
24-02-2010, 20:30
Well I tried Tamiya flat black and white. It seems the white is about the same a Citadel and the black is kind of cool. It has a almost charcoal like look to it where chaos black is sometimes a little glossy.
I got a Reaper Master-Class gunmetal blue that looks wicked.....its just I have no idea what to use it for..:confused:. Awesome for necrons but thats about it.


If it's the same as the vallejo gunmetal blue you're supposed to do uber light drybrushes on exposed metal that you don't want to look chrome plated. I use it in combination with washes and such for my Thousand Sons.

Norsehawk
25-02-2010, 04:04
I've been using a wide variety of products to put paint on my minis.

I have always used GW paints and most of them are great. I still have some bottles from the 80's that are still good enough to use. The washes do work great and they don't get used up too quickly. Since they came out, I've only fully emptied one bottle of Devlan Mud after a few months of use, Did some Iron Warriors, Deathwing, lots of bones, general shading for metallic items, ect. Easily the most valuable out of the set.

I do have a set of the Vallejo game colors paints, they do work good, and have quite a few of the older discontinued colors that GW no longer produces.

P3 is another brand I love. The colors don't exactly match (and sometimes are nowhere near GW/Vallejo colors) but they expand the color range quite a bit and give you many in between colors. Moldy Ochre and Sulfuric yellow are great. Very high pigment count means that most of the colors behave similarly to the foundation paints.

Reaper: I only have some experience with a few of the colors, but the Shadowed steel is one of my go-to colors when I am doing some armies. It gives you a nice boltgun metal color, but with a tiny tinge of blue. Looks great on my Space Wolves.

Foundry Paint System: instead of buying one bottle of paint, you buy the color range, for example, Flesh, you get the base color, the shade and the highlight in 3 different bottles. Seems like a good mix of paint and it works well, but somewhat expensive.

I also have tried some of the craft store paints, and as of yet, I'm not impressed. I know some people get ok results with them, but the pigment counts don't impress me overly much. Pretty much relegated to terrain use in my opinion. You get what you pay for.


I have also followed awesome paint job's directions for making my own washes and they are extremely useful. It also does help that I did have everything needed on my shelf to make the Black washes. I have been making different washes in the past but his recipes have good results. I've been experimenting with different colors and they are doing quite impressive things. need to try some more ink colors when I have some extra cash to spend, but I have purple, black, red oxide, and raw umber so far.

FashaTheDog
25-02-2010, 04:26
I've used GW paints for the last two decades, and like marv, the ones I have not completely used are still good. I've had no issues with them, but I will admit that I do not rave about them either. The seem fine as far as acrylics go, although I do have a soft spot for oils. Lately, I've been using Winsor & Newton Finity Artists Acrylics and Pearl Ex Interference. They are far thicker but they you can use interference with them easier. The only downside is that you may need to mix colors to match all of the GW colors but it is easy enough. While I do have a GW sales rack, the tube travel better (I often take my paints with my on long trips; that's how most of my Space Wolves were painted).

Dangersaurus
25-02-2010, 04:30
I miss the inks.:cries:

Edit: Once again, this time without the sarcasm and a real link (http://www.blackhat.co.uk/) to the current owner of Coat D'arms paints... the one I linked to previously was the interim owner. The latest owner is Blackhat. These are the original Citadel paints, including the early washes.