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View Full Version : Who would you want to write codex: Orks?



Tenken
09-03-2010, 04:28
Just my curiosity coming out, for all you ork players (and just fans I guess, orks are pretty cool :p) who would you want to see writing the new ork codex when it comes out? This isn't intended to be a rumor thread, or a wish listing thread, I'm aware codex orks isn't really even something people are talking about, this is just my curiosity. So who, and why?

I think I wouldn't mind seeing Cruddace giving orks a go. I think he did a bang up job on IG and pretty good on nids. I'd like to see him take some lessons away from both as far as balance goes (nothing like the pyrovore ever again, guh). But otherwise I think he's done pretty well. The one person I wouldn't want near codex orks is Ward. He already says he doesn't like orcs and goblins, so I'm sure the same goes for 40k orks, plus he wouldn't know the meaning of the word "balance" if you drilled it straight into his skull.

templersstorms
09-03-2010, 04:31
I think I trust myself to write it more than anyone else lately. IG were good, I would trust that guy.

Jupiter Terminalis
09-03-2010, 04:32
Cruddace wrote IG and Tyranids, those were both good books. Phil Kelly wrote Space Wolves, that was also an excellent book.

jspyd3rx
09-03-2010, 04:51
Yep. Who wouldn't want the Space Wolf author doing your codex.

Znail
09-03-2010, 05:20
Orks arent even in the pipeline for the next several years so its kind of early to speculate as there may be diffrent people working for GW at that time.

Tenken
09-03-2010, 05:22
Orks arent even in the pipeline for the next several years so its kind of early to speculate as there may be diffrent people working for GW at that time.

The point isn't to speculate. It's to ask yourself "gee who is the writer currently employed by GW who I'd most look forward to seeing writing orks?" Or apply the question to your army of choice. I simply chose orks because I play them, and I ask the question BECAUSE orks aren't in the works to be redone for some time.

GrogDaTyrant
09-03-2010, 05:27
Yep. Who wouldn't want the Space Wolf author doing your codex.

Been there, no thanks. I think he already did a masterful job at writing a seemingly 'rush-job' Ork codex. The numerous errors and vague rules were frustrating as heck to deal with. Issues like 'Can a shoota Nob take a Powerklaw?' As well as bizarre issues like MANz requiring a babysitter due to lack of Bosspole, or Zzap Guns becoming utter garbage.

I think I'd rather prefer Robin Cruddace to give it the old college try. Matt Ward would be a definite 'HELL NO'. Especially after the Orc and Goblin army book mess.

sabreu
09-03-2010, 05:31
pst. I could write a better ork codex than anyone on the staff. Seriously, all of the guys writing rules at the moment have hard ons for marines, and imperial stuff (cuz marines get to ally with them afterall).

Blitz001
09-03-2010, 06:28
to be honest not one of thoes idiots they have writing the codecies now. I honestly just laugh at most of the fluff they put in these books now.

the_gobbo_king
09-03-2010, 06:34
Phil Kelly, probably the best author they have, did a great job on the current codex and if he had a second go I could imagine him topping some of the crazy things in there. Plus he has a great sense of balance, the only bad thing he has come up with so far is Thunderwolves (general consensus, not mine).

TGK :shifty:

Jupiter Terminalis
09-03-2010, 06:35
Orks arent even in the pipeline for the next several years so its kind of early to speculate as there may be diffrent people working for GW at that time.

True enough. Hopefully GW's asinine business policies drive them into the ground, and they are bought out by Privateer Press. :evilgrin: They'd make sure everything was balanced and updated.

big squig
09-03-2010, 06:53
CRUDdace shouldn't be allowed to touch another codex. He's already caused enough mess.

Honestly, the ork dex IMO is just about perfect. They made nobs a bit too good, and flash gits not good enough, but the rest is spot on. The ork codex is what all codex's should be modeled after.

The guard and tyranid codexs are perfect examples of the poor direction codexes have been going in.

Rick Blaine
09-03-2010, 07:01
I don't want them touching the Codex this edition.

Tenken
09-03-2010, 07:09
CRUDdace shouldn't be allowed to touch another codex. He's already caused enough mess.

Honestly, the ork dex IMO is just about perfect. They made nobs a bit too good, and flash gits not good enough, but the rest is spot on. The ork codex is what all codex's should be modeled after.

The guard and tyranid codexs are perfect examples of the poor direction codexes have been going in.

How do you figure? I think the guard codex is pretty grade-a, lots of options, very few bad ones, very few must haves, special characters that bring something besides just unique wargear and face smashing ability, good wargear. I don't see what's wrong with it.

Nids have a good codex too, granted I think that Cruddace took them to far from being nids and tried to emulate his success with guard to much. They're a good army, with good choices, again few bad ones, and few must haves, however their wargear is lacking compared to guard IMO. The biggest problem is that they don't work like 'nids anymore, they work like every other army, just replace the vehicles with MCs, which was a bit of a disappointment to me.

In either case neither of these codices are no where near the bumbling buffoonery it took to create fantasy O&G or fantasy Daemons.

Though I will agree with you, the ork 'dex does seem just a hair short of perfection. I'd be happy if a new ork 'dex was just this one with some of the issues fixed (flash gitz, manz equipment, nobz WA shenangians) and a few new toys added.

Jupiter Terminalis
09-03-2010, 07:32
CRUDdace shouldn't be allowed to touch another codex. He's already caused enough mess.

The guard and tyranid codexs are perfect examples of the poor direction codexes have been going in.
:wtf: What planet are you living on? The Imperial Guard codex is one of the best books they've ever produced. Nothing is particularly over the top, and almost everything is viable (very few lemons overall). You can build a wide variety of lists that are both fun, characterful, and effective. I'm no expert on Tyranids, but I know several bug players whose opinion I value a lot more than forum warriors, and they feel much the same about their book.

What, in your opinion, is the proper direction for a codex to take?

Vaktathi
09-03-2010, 07:44
Cruddace needs a bit more work I think, while the IG codex is great, the nid book, while fun, has some synergy issues. Both have some rather blatant lemon units.

I haven't liked anything that Matt Ward has put out.

Alessio hasn't done anything with 40k since the rulebook, and that's a good thing. Keep him out.

Phil Kelly writes really powerful books, but tends to write armies that have ridiculous gimmick builds (nob bikers, JotWW, 4E flying circus, etc).

Jervis is well...Jervis.

shabbadoo
09-03-2010, 09:32
Anybody but Jervis. Nice guy and all, but I don't much care for his work as it has been rather flawed. The latest codex is okay, but by all that is holy are there a bazillion discrepancies and badly worded rules in it, and the order of assigning wargear by swapping out this or that, and in whatever order, needs to be worked out such that it is not innately flawed and utter crap.

I guess what is really needed are play testers who are not gooing all over themselves because they have the honor of playing the new codex, but play testers with an eye for finding problems with wording or just overall functionality and usefulness of the various units in the game.

Beyond that, the content in the current codex is a bit lacking. There should be at least one HQ character from every single major Clan, plus the usual minor characters. The lack of Nazdreg in the codex(and an update of a miniature to be really big and Nazdreg-ish) was a major oversight to say the least, and the opportunity to put in Orkimedes(talk about an Ork that would have a horde of special equipment and special rules, let alone a Mekboy retinue!) was missed. The codex still has 7 special characters in it, though a full dozen would not even be a stretch.

While not a fan of boar riders, squig riding Orks would be awesome(remember those concept sketches?).

An actual Ork tank would be nice, especially one that costs (at least)1/6 less because it doesn't work 1/6 of the time and has less range. :eyebrows:

I guess I'll also mention the whole Leadership of Grots or less issue with Nobs and Meganobs too(that beyond a huge oversight). Perhaps bring back Big Bosses as either Nob/Meganob unit leaders(+1 A, +1 Ld) and give them the boss pole option to fix that issue, or bring them back as a FOC choice that doesn't take up a slot, and you can buy a few of them ans spread them out to any units in your army. Yes, Big Bosses would have the full range of equipment options for the units they can join(i.e. a Big Boss that will be assigned to a unit of Stormboyz may take a Stormboy Rokkit Pack; or can take a Snazzgun and upgrades if he is joined to a unit of Flash Gits, etc.).

And of course Weirdboy powers are little bit too random to be useful, especially considering their wielder is running amok with only a 6+ save. The Warphead is seriously overpriced in comparison to other psykers considering his poor level of usefulness, poor survivability, and inability to counter enemy psychic powers. Weirdboyz/Warpheads are pretty much garbage.

Yes, there are a lot oft things I find deficient about the current Ork codex, and yet for all of that it is still fun to play and is surely competitive enough.

I guess I'll say that I would rather have two writers go at the next Ork codex together. but a little more brain powah into the mix, and hopefully the writing will end up being better.

With not as many bizarre units in the Ork army as are in 'Nids(which I think is decent enough), I would be willing to take a chance on Cruddace. There is lots of room for improvement to Codex: Orks in the way of making it more interesting rather than in the way of making it more powerful(I think its relative power level is just fine).

Griffindale
09-03-2010, 09:42
I can't say who will write it. I just think it should be written in big green crayon because thats how orks roll.

tu33y
09-03-2010, 09:42
fat bloke? hes a man who understands the orks.... or did he fully blot his copy book with GW when he went off to write Starship Troopers?

(okay, im 90% kidding)

enigma-96
09-03-2010, 09:48
With not as many bizarre units in the Ork army as are in 'Nids(which I think is decent enough), I would be willing to take chance of Cruddace. There is lots of room for improvement to Codex: Orks in the way of making it more interesting rather than in the way of making it more powerful(I think its relative power level is just fine).

Dis here boy makes a whole lotta sense, he's probabbly a brainboy of right madness. :p

Jupiter Terminalis
09-03-2010, 10:05
Cruddace needs a bit more work I think, while the IG codex is great, the nid book, while fun, has some synergy issues. Both have some rather blatant lemon units.
Well, to be fair, even Privateer Press puts out lemon units, and they opened their beta rules to the entire player community for a couple of months before they were finalized.


I haven't liked anything that Matt Ward has put out.

Alessio hasn't done anything with 40k since the rulebook, and that's a good thing. Keep him out.
Is that the 5th edition rulebook? Except for some vehicle stuff, and the stupidity of TLOS (especially how it applies to forests and similar terrain), I like 5th edition a lot more than 3rd or 4th.


Jervis is well...Jervis.
Jervis is great at building a narrative (see Battle Missions), but I agree that he should never write a book. He's all about fluff, with interesting rules being the last thing on his list of priorities. Just look at the Dark Eldar codex. So incredibly bland and boring as far as unit choices go. He didn't even give them any real wargear or vehicle options the first time around! He needs to stick to specialist games and writing background pieces.

Logan_uc
09-03-2010, 12:11
Phill Kelly did a outstanding job with C:Orks its the best codex ouy there IMHO, so no need to chage.

Jagged
09-03-2010, 13:30
Phill Kelly did a outstanding job with C:Orks its the best codex ouy there IMHO, so no need to chage.

I agree. There's no "need" to change. That doesn't mean there aren't things I'd like to change though :)


Like many I would swap Lootaz and Flash Gitz positions in the FOC
Give Burnaz and tank bustaz a dedicated transport option
Create a "Mad Boyz" troop option that would be a troop choice lead by a Weird Boy or Warp Head
Restore Zzap guns to their former glory
Increase the allowable numbers of Big Gunz in battery
Add an "I Winz" Button. Oh no, My mistake. That's reserved for the latest Codex! :)

the1stpip
09-03-2010, 14:05
I think Phil Kelly did a damn good job of the last one, only a few problems with it.

So I would be quite happy with him doing it again.

Oguleth
09-03-2010, 21:55
Seeing as Phil Kelly tends to do good Xenos books, I do hope he keeps being the main name in the next Ork Codex aswell. Though, can't say I want a new one anytime soon - getting new awesome models in plastic no less is more than enough :p

GrogDaTyrant
09-03-2010, 22:28
Phill Kelly did a outstanding job with C:Orks its the best codex ouy there IMHO, so no need to chage.

I gotta disagree here. Phil did a moderate job, IMO. There were simply too many errors, rule-discrepencies, and needless 'nerfings'. Zzaps, Looted-Wagons, and the switch that made Orks into an 'Almost Always Strike Last' army being top of my list. Personally I'd prefer it more if Orks didn't have a 'sub-par' Furious Charge, and instead costed 1 to 2 pts more and had a base I of 3. This would balance out the ludicrously amazing value of Shootas, while making Slugga/Choppas more effective/useful than being that of a 'cannon fodder CC unit'.

It'd also be nice to have access to a battle-tank again. Even if we go back to having to represent Gobsmashas or Lungburstas as a 'Looted Lemun Russ'. I'd be fine whether it comes in the form of Looted Wagons getting more development beyond rhino with a sawn-off battlecannon, or whether we get a new entry for 'Gunwagon' (without any glorified transport status). Fixing a lot of the morale problems, such as for MANz, would be nice as well. As would removing the silly 0-1 restriction for 'Ard Boyz.

And hell, allowing the army-wide special rule 'Waaagh!' to actually affect (or be useful for) more than just CC infantry would be nice as well. I can count the number of times I've actually used the Waaagh! in the countless games I've played. And it's been never.

sabreu
09-03-2010, 22:37
I gotta disagree here. Phil did a moderate job, IMO. There were simply too many errors, rule-discrepencies, and needless 'nerfings'. Zzaps, Looted-Wagons, and the switch that made Orks into an 'Almost Always Strike Last' army being top of my list. Personally I'd prefer it more if Orks didn't have a 'sub-par' Furious Charge, and instead costed 1 to 2 pts more and had a base I of 3. This would balance out the ludicrously amazing value of Shootas, while making Slugga/Choppas more effective/useful than being that of a 'cannon fodder CC unit'.

I like the boys as is, actually. The hitting last thing doesn't bother me so much as the lack of some close combat weapons in mobs. I think if we had some big choppa or power klaw boys in mobs it would equal out without having need to raise points or change the now iconic statline.


It'd also be nice to have access to a battle-tank again. Even if we go back to having to represent Gobsmashas or Lungburstas as a 'Looted Lemun Russ'. I'd be fine whether it comes in the form of Looted Wagons getting more development beyond rhino with a sawn-off battlecannon, or whether we get a new entry for 'Gunwagon' (without any glorified transport status). Fixing a lot of the morale problems, such as for MANz, would be nice as well. As would removing the silly 0-1 restriction for 'Ard Boyz.

I don't think we really need to specific tanks such as Gobsmashas or Lungburstas anymore. Ork vehicles are mutable to the extreme, so a few different broader types would be more appropriate. Add Guntrukks, Gunwagons and Big Trakks to the roster and you've got enough variety to make proppa ork wagons (if you get what I'm implying here).

The 'Ard Boyz 0-1 limitation was dumb. I agree. Also, I'd like to see a boyz mob upgradeable to Skar boyz, either unit wide or by model (to have mix). Wishful thinking but fun nonetheless.


And hell, allowing the army-wide special rule 'Waaagh!' to actually affect (or be useful for) more than just CC infantry would be nice as well. I can count the number of times I've actually used the Waaagh! in the countless games I've played. And it's been never.

I don't particularly feel strongly either way, tbh. I like the rule as is, but I can see where you are coming from.

wazatdingder
09-03-2010, 22:41
Andy Chambers!!! Coming back with a WAAAAAAAAAGH!!!

GrogDaTyrant
09-03-2010, 23:02
I like the boys as is, actually. The hitting last thing doesn't bother me so much as the lack of some close combat weapons in mobs. I think if we had some big choppa or power klaw boys in mobs it would equal out without having need to raise points or change the now iconic statline.

...

The 'Ard Boyz 0-1 limitation was dumb. I agree. Also, I'd like to see a boyz mob upgradeable to Skar boyz, either unit wide or by model (to have mix). Wishful thinking but fun nonetheless.



Fair point. If the Skar Boy upgrade came with a boost to Initiative 3. Then I'm down. But I think the 'iconic statline' was only iconic in the age when Initiative wasn't nearly as big of a deal as it is now. Plus, the Power of the Waaagh! did a lot to counteract that issue, and the game didn't have such current changes as that silly Initiative roll-off or Hit-and-Run requiring an I check (seriously? Why give it to Deathkoptas at all???).




I don't think we really need to specific tanks such as Gobsmashas or Lungburstas anymore. Ork vehicles are mutable to the extreme, so a few different broader types would be more appropriate. Add Guntrukks, Gunwagons and Big Trakks to the roster and you've got enough variety to make proppa ork wagons (if you get what I'm implying here).

I'm not requesting specific tanks of old. But yes, a few more general chassis and something that can actually be considered a tank (and not a Glorified Transport) would be very nice. All a Gunwagon really needs to be, would be a battle-tank style AV (even 13/12/10 would be fine), with plenty of options, guns (some preferably twin-linked), and anti-vehicular capabability beyond Apoc. Allowing options and flexibility, is key to keeping things in the Orky spirit IMHO. If I really wanted 'X tank that comes specifically with...', I'd play Imperium. A customizable battle-tank chassis is all I ask, and the ability to finally represent such old tanks that were capable of engaging other vehicles (somewhat reliably).



Andy Chambers!!! Coming back with a WAAAAAAAAAGH!!!

One could only hope...

Worsle
09-03-2010, 23:10
As long as it get the job done properly? Anyone. I would not mind Phill Kelly getting a shot to do it properly, as SW proves he can if do good work while adding a lot of character in the current design philosophy. I can't be too annoyed at Phill personally, it was GW policy to make crappy books when orks came out so no surprise that it is so bad. Though I have to wonder if he was really in on what was going on with the 5th edition given how badly the ork rules fit into it.

Really I don't care who writes it as long as we get a competitive book out at the end, does not matter whose name is on it if it is a good book.

e2055261
09-03-2010, 23:25
John Grisham. He'd do a great job.

LonelyPath
09-03-2010, 23:31
I'd like to see Phil Kelly do the next one, the current is excellent and alot of fun to play with and against, also well written with humour and interesting fluff.

DuskRaider
09-03-2010, 23:44
I'd actually love to see Cruddance do the next Ork codex, if Phil couldn't. Yes, the current 'dex has some flaws and looking at the newest books hitting shelves, we Orks don't exactly have a lot of unit options, but I'll say one thing: The current codex is just about as close as you can get to a perfectly balanced book as any.

I'm either in a minority of thinking the new Tyranid codex is actually well written, or there's just a small group of internet loudmouths who seem to be more then they actually are (I'm going with that one).

Really, I would've loved to see things such as Snikrot become an actual HQ with better rules, perhaps allow Kommandos to become Troops. Looted Wagons need to go back to being actual looted tanks, such as a Looted Leman Russ Exterminator or whatnot. Klan rules I'm not so worried about, I can represent my Blood Axe Boyz perfectly fine at this point in time.

I'll agree that at the very least, Burna Boyz need the option of a dedicated transport, even if it's a Looted Rhino / Chimera / Wagon. Lootas don't need it so much, as they can't move and shoot in the same turn and have a 48" range, so they can usually squat in terrain and pick off units / transports from across the board.

Morale issues are a big problem with the current codex, so those need to be fixed. The other problem I have? The fact MANz can't be given Cybork upgrades (without taking Grotznik, which... no). The last and biggest issue I have with the current book is the fact that we have no real Anti-Tank weapons (especially with AV 13+), with the exception of Power Klaws and Deff Rollas, both of which require you to more or less be in base contact. Add the Supa-Kannon to the book and get it over with, or allow us to take different weapons with Lootas / Flash Gitz. Perhaps even give us a new unit called Junka Boyz or something that can wield salvaged Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and Lascannons (that have a chance of blowing up in their faces).

The option to to Kommandos or Stormboyz as Troops would have been nice as well. As I said earlier, make Snikrot an HQ, give him some better stats and upgrades (perhaps dual 'Uge Choppas that also count as power weapons?). The same with Zagstruk, put him in HQ, give him some slightly better stats, and allow Stormboyz to be taken as Troops, in similar vein of Wazdakka. Barring character HQs, give Warbosses the ability to become Kommandos or Stormbosses.

MajorWesJanson
10-03-2010, 00:11
Phil or Robin. Or anyone who is willing to replace the word "points" with the word "teef" in the army list section of the book :D

As for added units and ideas:
Bump Ork boyz to 7 points, but give them +1I.
Give Hard Boyz +1I.
Bump Looted wagon up to a heavier tank and price it accordingly.
Snikkrot and Zagstruk as HQ ICs that make their respective units troop choices
Add Orkimedes as a named Big Mek HQ
Add Named Orky Tank ace character, upgrade for ork vehicle
Add Warboss Snagrod (Arch-Arsonist or Charadon) as a SC
Add Warboss Nazdreg
Swap lootas and flash gits in the FOC
Dedicated transports for lootas, burna boyz, tankbustaz, and flash gitz
Add Mad Boyz unit

Kits:
Plastic Warboss/Big Mek kit
Plastic MAN kit with pieces for Wazdakka or Nazdreg
Plastic Buggy/Trakk kit
Plastic Multipart Deffkoptas
Metal Tank ace character
Metal Snagrod
Metal Weirdboyz kit

GrogDaTyrant
10-03-2010, 00:22
Perhaps even give us a new unit called Junka Boyz or something that can wield salvaged Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and Lascannons (that have a chance of blowing up in their faces).



You mean... Lootas? You've described Lootas (especially Deathskulls in general) in every sense of the term. It's only been in the recent codex when they were given what is effectively a d3 shot Autocannon.

I think a better idea, would be to just expand upon the Lootas.

Tenken
10-03-2010, 00:22
Add Named Orky Tank ace character, upgrade for ork vehicle


Perhaps named "Pattork?" Oh-ho-ho.

sabreu
10-03-2010, 01:30
Bump Ork boyz to 7 points, but give them +1I.
Give Hard Boyz +1I.


Disagree here. Adding a Skarboys option for +4-6 points to get +1 strength, Initiative, and possibly an attack is all that's needed. 'Eavy armor should just be an option for all mobz.


Bump Looted wagon up to a heavier tank and price it accordingly.

Or just give us upated Guntrukks and Gunwagons!


Snikkrot and Zagstruk as HQ ICs that make their respective units troop choices

Unnecessary yet cool


Add Orkimedes as a named Big Mek HQ
Add Named Orky Tank ace character, upgrade for ork vehicle
Add Warboss Snagrod (Arch-Arsonist or Charadon) as a SC
Add Warboss Nazdreg

Definitely agree with you here. Also, let's get a Tankbusta character, A burna boss, and some other cool hq's. We are starved for characters!


Swap lootas and flash gits in the FOC

Eh. guess so. I see the point, but I don't really understand it as a major point.


Dedicated transports for lootas, burna boyz, tankbustaz, and flash gitz

Just give us trukk access!


Add Mad Boyz unit

I think a nice hq unit (ala warlocks) opened by a wierdboy would do nicely actually.


Kits:
Plastic Warboss/Big Mek kit
Plastic MAN kit with pieces for Wazdakka or Nazdreg
Plastic Buggy/Trakk kit
Plastic Multipart Deffkoptas
Metal Tank ace character
Metal Snagrod
Metal Weirdboyz kit

Add Plastic Flashgits, updated big gunz, Plastic Kommandos/Tankbustas combo kit to my wish list.

duffybear1988
10-03-2010, 01:34
Matt Ward! he writes the best books ever :)

He would give Ghazgkull and any unit he joins Scout, S7 and T7, 10 wounds I10, etc etc

Na seriously Phill Kelly is pretty good.

MajorWesJanson
10-03-2010, 01:48
Disagree here. Adding a Skarboys option for +4-6 points to get +1 strength, Initiative, and possibly an attack is all that's needed. 'Eavy armor should just be an option for all mobz.

True, that would work better.




Or just give us upated Guntrukks and Gunwagons!

I'd still like to see a heavy Ork tank unit, like an up armored FW Big Trakk




Definitely agree with you here. Also, let's get a Tankbusta character, A burna boss, and some other cool hq's. We are starved for characters!

Orks could get away with 4-8 more characters :) Or maybe keep Zagstrukk, Badrukk, and Snikrot as unit upgrades and make more unit upgrade characters like them for other units. A named Nob for basic boyz would be nice too.




Eh. guess so. I see the point, but I don't really understand it as a major point.

Flahs Gitz really need a better BS to be useful, maybe trade an attack for a point of BS? That and Lootas fit better as HS units, with heavier long range guns. Short range guns with possibly low AP is more the elite slot. It's more a theme thing than anything else.


Just give us trukk access!

That is what I meant. Maybe battlewagons too for Flash Gitz



I think a nice hq unit (ala warlocks) opened by a wierdboy would do nicely actually.

That could work too.


Add Plastic Flashgits, updated big gunz, Plastic Kommandos/Tankbustas combo kit to my wish list.

Or even metal flashgitz. Kommandos/Tankbustas are not too hard to do from existing kits. Big Gunz really only need a carriage designed and some grot crewers. They could do them like IG HW teams.

Carraway Effect
10-03-2010, 02:57
Of the active writers, I'll add another vote for Phil Kelly. He did good work, and could just use another swipe at it to fix a few dropped balls.

However, I actively would not like to see Robin Cruddace work on Orks. Don't get me wrong, I love Cruddace's work on IG, and I've no real quibbles with the new direction of the Tyranids. (The rules screw-ups, that's another issue, but that blame falls on GW's poor copy-editing work, and can't all be blamed on one person. There's a reason many successful game companies, like WotC, have separate staffers for Design and Development on a given project.)

Rather, I believe Cruddace has a particular role in GW, if his IG and Tyranids Codices speak to his general design philosophy: the scorch-earth-and-rebuild. Cruddace's work seems best targeted towards armies whose rules and playstyles have outright stagnated and need fresh blood--the old Guard book being a prime example. You call in Cruddace when the army needs to be taken back to the drawing board. I daresay, I want him in on the new Inquisition book, for example.

The current Ork Codex, on the other hand, is a solid design, if one with some obvious flaws. It's a book which more deserves to be built upon, rather than revamped. And for that, I think bringing the original designer back to correct his own flaws would be the smarter move.

Grimdakka
10-03-2010, 03:08
I might give Cruddace another go. Or let kelly take a crack at it. But either way whoever it is NEEDS to be set up with a 24 hour hotline to Andy Chambers! I mean come on! The guy wrote a dex that held up for like what.. EIGHT YEARS!? :eek:

What I would change in the current Ork dex...

*Add Nazdreg (maybe, for his "Kunnin' Planz") and Orkamedies (definately, for a Boss Mek with mek army).
*Ditch the lame Looted Tanks for propper ork Gunwaggons.
*Let MANs have cyborknetics and bosspoles.
*Tweek the Flash Gits a bit to make them worth bringing (maybe d6-1 for AP, or best of 2d6). And give them the same transport options as the regular Nobz.

Other than that I don't think the other tweeks mentioned in this thread are necessary.

Lootas, Tankbustas, Burna Boyz, etc can be mounted in Battlewaggons if you realy want to (or jump on an empty Trukk). This is fine as I think giving nearly every mob of orks a trukk option would be a bit much and this forces you to consider which unit is important enough to mount in a Waggon.

WAAAGH! + FC is okay as is. It certainly helps, but isn't realy overpowered in any way (especialy with the number of times I roll 1s for my fleet move :rolleyes: ). Basic mobz of orks still kill just about any other basic unit of troops in CC despite the low init. And as for the ubber killy melee units they can't... SHOOT THEM!

Skar Boyz... Unecessary with all orks with FC.

'Ard Boyz/'eavy armour... I can see why they don't want the option of all orks in an army to have 4+ saves, but the limit of 1 is kinda overly strict. Maybe 1 more mob of 'Ard Boyz for every mob of regular Boyz of equil number?... Hmm... That seems kinda beardy. :eyebrows: Then again. IG can field all Vets with carapace, Eldar can take Dire Avengers as troops, and Space Wolves can be a bunch of dirty cheating beardy cheese mongers... So I guess 'eavy armour options for all the boyz wouldn't be out of line. :D

sabreu
10-03-2010, 03:41
Flahs Gitz really need a better BS to be useful, maybe trade an attack for a point of BS? That and Lootas fit better as HS units, with heavier long range guns. Short range guns with possibly low AP is more the elite slot. It's more a theme thing than anything else.

I understand that, I do. Lootas would fit in better in heavy support I agree. I was just musing over the fact that of all things pointed out, the FOC placement isn't such a huge thing.

As an aside, I think Flashgits have great potential to be improved to be effective. The BS isn't want needs to be changed, having BS2 straight across the army, barring grots, is fluffy and great IMHO. The next author can change the rules for AP, amount of shots, add new upgrade weapons, or anything else his crazy mind can fathom. Just going to look forward to see if it becomes a hit or miss (again).


Lootas, Tankbustas, Burna Boyz, etc can be mounted in Battlewaggons if you realy want to (or jump on an empty Trukk). This is fine as I think giving nearly every mob of orks a trukk option would be a bit much and this forces you to consider which unit is important enough to mount in a Waggon.

I suppose this is a matter of opinion. We have certain armies that can get transports for every unit irregardless of FOC placement (Space Marines and Eldar jump to mind immediately), with those who cannot and designed that way purposely (Tyranids, Daemons and Necrons), or are currently suffering from edition changes (Witchhunters, Daemonhunters, and Tau). Trukk mounted Burnas, Lootas, or Tankbustas certainly aren't going to be overpowered because of a fragile trukk.

If Trukks for those elites really breaks the mind of the next author, I certainly hope looted wagons can be bought in squadrons in the next round. :D


WAAAGH! + FC is okay as is. It certainly helps, but isn't realy overpowered in any way (especialy with the number of times I roll 1s for my fleet move :rolleyes: ). Basic mobz of orks still kill just about any other basic unit of troops in CC despite the low init. And as for the ubber killy melee units they can't... SHOOT THEM!

The WAAAGH! is still awesome for krumpin and can fail epically as you point out. As I said before, I can see why some want more, but I'm content as is.


Skar Boyz... Unecessary with all orks with FC.

Certainly nowhere near as scarry as Death Company or Wolf Priest lead squads. It would not only be returning us a lost unit, but it would open up more variety. Done right, it won't be any more game breaking than 'Ard boys are.


'Ard Boyz/'eavy armour... I can see why they don't want the option of all orks in an army to have 4+ saves, but the limit of 1 is kinda overly strict. Maybe 1 more mob of 'Ard Boyz for every mob of regular Boyz of equil number?... Hmm... That seems kinda beardy. :eyebrows: Then again. IG can field all Vets with carapace, Eldar can take Dire Avengers as troops, and Space Wolves can be a bunch of dirty cheating beardy cheese mongers... So I guess 'eavy armour options for all the boyz wouldn't be out of line. :D

There is absolutely no reason why we should have had that a 0-1 option. It's hardly game breaking, and eats up points quick lessening the numbers to be faced. Shucks, if they just let us take three units like our last codex it would still be ok with me. :p

HA!
10-03-2010, 05:30
I hope it's Kelly. I think he did a great job with the fluff. Great,dry sense of humor throughout the whole book.

Scythe
10-03-2010, 08:13
How do you figure? I think the guard codex is pretty grade-a, lots of options, very few bad ones,

Really? Techpriests, Commissar Lords, Priests, Stormtroopers, Conscripts, Heavy Weapon Squads, Special Weapon Squads, Sentinels, Armoured Sentinels, Leman Russ Vanquisher, Leman Russ Punisher, some artillery...

All are rarely taken. And that's quite a long list.


very few must haves,

Veterans, Chimeras, Vendetta Gunships...

Seriously, I play Guard, and I like the Guard dex. However, it is not close to perfect, as some people like to think. Veterans should have been more expensive, or remained elites. A lot of things could use a serious price adjustment or remake. Some things are caused due to basic rules though (like fire points on transport vehicles. Imho, that rule should be done away with altogether. This is a miniature game. You want those models to look cool and hit the table at one point, not sit beside it and turtle up in their transport for the whole battle while firing).

Anyway, on the main subject: the Ork codex doesn't need any drastic changes at the moment, only minor tweaking. That removes Cruddace as an option imho. However, a new edition (and newer codexes, in lesser degree) might change this, so it really depends... no real preference then. All current writers got their good points and flaws...

Logarithm Udgaur
10-03-2010, 08:32
Or anyone who is willing to replace the word "points" with the word "teef" in the army list section of the book :D


Best idea proposed yet.

Arbedark
10-03-2010, 10:48
Matt Ward, who doesn't want an S8 T8 7W Monstrous Creature Gazzy?

Jagged
10-03-2010, 11:48
Create a "Mad Boyz" troop option that would be a troop choice lead by a Weird Boy or Warp Head


Just wanted to expand on this a bit.

I think there main issue with the current Weird Boy is that it doesn't work as an HQ option. Its not strong enough, doesn't make sense from a fluffy point of view and doesn't have the necessary options to make it an HQ unit.

It would be nice to have those options but even then there is still the fluffy point that Weird Boyz are rarely "leaders". Weird Boy HQs should be limited to special characters IMO. You certainly should not have to decide between Weird Boy and Big Mek for example. The HQ limitation doesn't make sense. You also HAVE to run them in a unit to get a decent Leadership value. So far better to make a Weird Boyz a troop upgrade hence Mad Boyz.

I always think of it as "Hey Warbozz! Look wut wez found on tha way to tha fight! Kan we keep it? It will be good for a laff!"

shabbadoo
10-03-2010, 14:03
Just wanted to expand on this a bit.

I think there main issue with the current Weird Boy is that it doesn't work as an HQ option. Its not strong enough, doesn't make sense from a fluffy point of view and doesn't have the necessary options to make it an HQ unit.


I completely agree. Weirdboyz/Warp'eadz are NOT leaders- they are liabilities! Of course they somewhat supposed to be liabilities too. I would fit them in like Techmarines- counts as Elites but don't actually take up an FOC slot, you can take 1-3 in your army, and you must assign each one individually to a "minderz" unit(Weirboyz/Warp'eads would NOT have the Independent Character rule!!!). Any unit that is given a Weirdboy/Warp'ead gets the "Minderz" rule, whatever the hell that is. I'll work it out later, or somebody else can. ;)

Also, Weirdboyz/Warp'eadz should not have random powers. They could have a wide array of powers(Weirdboyz- 3 powers; Warp-eadz- 6 powers), but they also would have a little bit better chance of something catastrophic happening when something goes bad; say, on a double 1(in which case the power works, but you still roll on the chart to see what else happens) and on ANY failed psychic test, they roll on the special(usually bad stuff) chart(in addition to taking a Perils of the Warp wound):

1: Weirdboy/Wap'ead is killed in an explosion of wild green energy! All units with a member within 12" of the Weirdboy(including his Minderz unit) take d6 Strength 5 hits!(Yes, this could hurt the enemy too, and yes, the enemy has reason to cringe ever time you roll that Psychic Test too! Awesome!!! :D)
2: Every model in the Minderz unit, including the Weirdboy/Warp'ead himself, takes a Strength 4 hit.
3: Something bad happens.
4: Something slightly bad happens.
5: Nothing happens. At all.
6: Power works, and something else beneficial actually happens too!(i.e. the "Dumb Ork Luck" result)

(The copper staff upgrade for Weirdboyz/Warp'eadz would allow a re-roll on this chart.)

The squigs are put to bed, and now I must follow.

Tenken
10-03-2010, 18:05
Really? Techpriests, Commissar Lords, Priests, Stormtroopers, Conscripts, Heavy Weapon Squads, Special Weapon Squads, Sentinels, Armoured Sentinels, Leman Russ Vanquisher, Leman Russ Punisher, some artillery...

All are rarely taken. And that's quite a long list.



Veterans, Chimeras, Vendetta Gunships...

Seriously, I play Guard, and I like the Guard dex. However, it is not close to perfect, as some people like to think. Veterans should have been more expensive, or remained elites. A lot of things could use a serious price adjustment or remake. Some things are caused due to basic rules though (like fire points on transport vehicles. Imho, that rule should be done away with altogether. This is a miniature game. You want those models to look cool and hit the table at one point, not sit beside it and turtle up in their transport for the whole battle while firing).

Relatively speaking, when compared to many codices this list isn't very long. Also sentinels are great, I don't know what you're looking at. But compare this list to the entire guard army list, not so long. Compare this list to the relative amount of useless garbage in the CSM codex relative to the amount of choices. IG are spoiled for choices, in every FOC.

By sheer weight of numbers some are gunna be bad and some are gunna be good. But again I feel none of those are "never gunna take it pyrovore bad" (well maybe the punisher) or "always have to have one monolith good." Some see the field less than others, but again part of it is due simply to the amount of choices guard have open to them.

Logarithm Udgaur
11-03-2010, 02:30
I agree with everything said above with the exception that the IG Elites section might as well not exist. Everything in there is overpriced.

GrogDaTyrant
11-03-2010, 03:30
Lootas, Tankbustas, Burna Boyz, etc can be mounted in Battlewaggons if you realy want to (or jump on an empty Trukk). This is fine as I think giving nearly every mob of orks a trukk option would be a bit much and this forces you to consider which unit is important enough to mount in a Waggon.

I disagree 110% with you here. Lootas don't need a transport, per say... But Burnas and Tankbustas pretty much require them, much like Nobs or MANz. Burnas on foot will never make it across the board or will just get jumped by any CC unit that can easily overpower them (such as Assault Marines). And thanks to Glory Hogs, if you actually want something that resembles control over the Tankbustas then they're going to need a transport. At the very least, those 2 units pretty much require Transport options. Flash Gitz need a transport option as well, as they automatically eat up 2 heavy slots unless you dragoon a ride from somewhere else.



WAAAGH! + FC is okay as is. It certainly helps, but isn't realy overpowered in any way (especialy with the number of times I roll 1s for my fleet move :rolleyes: ). Basic mobz of orks still kill just about any other basic unit of troops in CC despite the low init. And as for the ubber killy melee units they can't... SHOOT THEM!

Skar Boyz... Unecessary with all orks with FC.

For Waaagh!, it CAN be useful. But what makes it far from being overpowered is how 2-dimensional it is. If your army is pretty much combat based, then for one turn it allows you to do what several other armies can do all the time (*cough* Shrike-marines, because that makes sense...). If your list is heavily focused towards firepower, or if the majority/entirety of your army isn't infantry at all; then it does little to nothing. In my case, I have never used it in a game. This is of course not counting the times when I have called my Waaagh! to make fun of it's limited usage, and then continued gunning down the opponent with my buckets of dice.


The reason I don't think that FC is fine as is, is because of the current state of Ork initiative. Prior to the current codex, Orks weren't an 'almost always strike last' army. In fact, some units could achieve truly ridiculous initiative values (I 6 nobs on the charge, I 8 Warboss). When the old 3rd ed Green codex was written, failing a morale check from loosing combat meant a 2d6 roll-off. With 4th (trial assault rules for 3rd), and 5th, they adopted the Initiative roll-off that we have now. Rather than bring the Orks back in line (after replacing the borken Choppa rule with FC), Mr. Kelly opted to drop them to 2/3rd their initial cost, 3/4ths their initial cost for Shootas.

Sure it's fine on paper, and it's almost assuredly the reason behind the 'Randomly Falling Over Dead Rule' (a.k.a. No Retreat!). But it only fixed the problem of Ork boyz performing worse over the editions by making them cost less. Meanwhile Shootas became downright broken. Where Choppa/Sluggas operate fine in a 'remove a bucket of casualties and don't care' CC unit, Shootas actually became a god-like unit of versatility. They never had the Choppa rule in the old codex, and so gained +1 str on the charge for the loss of I 4. Sure it's a fair trade-off, but they also ended up with a crazy Assault 2 gun and dropped to 75% of their original cost. They became a stupidly good shooting unit (point for point), but maintained an above-par combat ability beyond that of tactical marines. While IG and Termagaunts have reclaimed their firepower superiority over Shootas with the recent codices, both of those units fold when it comes to CC.

What I'm basically saying... is that Choppa/Sluggas may currently operate fine as a cannon-fodder CC horde. But shootas are ludicrously under-costed right now, and outright broken when spammed and in the hands of a good player. Because of this, I believe a base I increase to 3, with a cost increase of 1pt or 2pts per boy would be fine. It'd help balance the point-for-point crazy firepower and versatility of shootas, while allowing choppas/sluggas to actually do their intended job and possibly catch the odd fleeing enemy (not to mention it would allow a charging unit to actually swing at the standard initiative for a CC unit). Nobs and Warboss initiatives are fine as is.

big squig
11-03-2010, 04:14
I wouldn't want CRUDdanc doing the ork dex because he would create 17 new units that won't get minis, add special rules for the special rules to get around other army's special rules, and would make it nigh impossible to look up even the most minor information. Add 20 special characters with EW to make it a modern GW codex and call it done!

gothgar
11-03-2010, 04:20
I'd like to see skarboys, maybe something exactly like what ard boys currently are

0-1 +x points

Unit gains +1ws and +1t and maybe even +1a

something along those lines

oh and I would like to see weirdboys as an elites slot

and more dedicated transport options...

Scythe
11-03-2010, 07:14
Relatively speaking, when compared to many codices this list isn't very long. Also sentinels are great, I don't know what you're looking at. But compare this list to the entire guard army list, not so long. Compare this list to the relative amount of useless garbage in the CSM codex relative to the amount of choices. IG are spoiled for choices, in every FOC.

I'll give you the CSM codex, that one indeed has some bad internal balance. However, when compared to some of the later codexes released (like marines and variants, orks and eldar) I think the relative amount of duds is rather similar. Mind, I never said the IG codex is a bad one, but there's definitely still room for improvement.

Yes, maybe sentinels are debatable. However, some extra units not mentioned might creep in as well then (like the previous mentioned complete elite section, or penal legionnaires; I think both have uses, but many people disagree with me).


By sheer weight of numbers some are gunna be bad and some are gunna be good. But again I feel none of those are "never gunna take it pyrovore bad" (well maybe the punisher)

As both a Tyranid and a Guard player, I would say that I would use a Pyrovore brood earlier than, say a Conscript unit. The dropping Pyrovores at least have some unique ability within the army, not so much for the conscripts. But that might be a personal opinion. Now, if we were talking about "never gunna take it Chaos Spawn bad", I might agree :p

Logarithm Udgaur
11-03-2010, 21:52
@gothgar
So you want a unit that is exactly like a unit already in the codex? Doesn't make much sense to me.


Weirdboyz should be an HQ unit that does not take up a FOC slot. This would represent that although they do not lead armies, they are still a valued resource to any Warboss.

Mozi
11-03-2010, 22:16
Phil or Robin. Or anyone who is willing to replace the word "points" with the word "teef" in the army list section of the book :D


Yes! That guy you described gets my vote as well :D

Seriously though judging by the current codex, I would pick Phil Kelly as well

Eos Rahh
12-03-2010, 00:25
Who ever wrote the 3rd ed dex for chaos. I want that guy to write the next chaos dex as it seemed he actually well...cared... Whoever wrote the 4thed one needs to be shot.

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
12-03-2010, 02:34
Andy Chambers. Who else? Seriously, how long did we play and win with his Old Codex?

Apart from him, Phil Kelly.
Just because I found everything I needed in the New Codex.
Excepted Makari...
I think we, Orks players, are very, very lucky: our two last Codecies were well thought and well balanced. Even if I agree with most things that were written above, we still have a great Codex that allows quiet a lot of styles of play to be viable.

But there's no hurry to have a new Codex: if something is not broken, do not try to fix it.
What would happen to us if GW tried to "fix it" with Matt Ward?

sorienor
12-03-2010, 03:23
Who would you want to write codex: Orks?

Me! :D

I love the codex as is, but some things just don't make any sense.

-Weirdboys blow. They need a complete revamp including some psychic defense.

-Looted wagons are ok but not great. It was a good try at allowing older players to keep their models but not much else. Either revamp or eliminate and give us a real battle tank as mentioned earlier. Having a squadron wouldn't be a bad idea either.

-Flash gitz: gitfinda should be BS3 instead of the silly range rule. Give them dedicated BW. Done.

-KMB the most useless thing in the codex. AP2 is almost completely useless. My solution is to make them AP1 (still S8 gets hot), for the bonus to vehicle damage. This will make them a viable option over rokkits. Same with zzap guns, AP1 please.

-Make meks in burna and loota units useful. make them "sergeants" with bosspole access and give them more mek-like stuff. Something like a "baby" kff that only effects the unit the mekboy is in.

-Tankbustas are almost fine as-is, just give them a trukk option and return the tankhunter rule.

-Move mega armor to an option for nob unit, and make nob bikers a separate fast attack choice so they can't be scoring.

-Return the bikers to 3rd edition. Bump back to 35pts and fearless.

-Attack bike! Give us an attack bike with BS (so 6 shots at 18"!!) plus upgrades to Rokkit, Deffgun and the ap1 KMB.

-Definitely need Nazdreg back! BS4 please.

-Baby squiggoth as a dedicated transport option heheh :)

I really like other ideas I've heard like changes to snikrot and zagstruk, and a jump pack option for the warboss.

Lord of Worms
12-03-2010, 06:10
Matt Ward.

Ghazgkull Thraka: WS8 BS3 S6 T8 W12 I7 Ld10
Headbutt: Counts as monstrous creature for purposes of attacking vehicles in melee.
The Eye of Gork and Mork: Any player reading this codex will immediately suffer a stroke unless they yell "Waaagh!" in a loud, annoying voice with a volume of no less than 90dB.
Proffit of Gork and Mork: Ork Boyz units do not give up kill points when wiped out and gain the Without Number special rule.
INSERT STUPID RULE HERE

Dribble Joy
12-03-2010, 10:19
True enough. Hopefully GW's asinine business policies drive them into the ground, and they are bought out by Privateer Press. :evilgrin: They'd make sure everything was balanced and updated.

Please...

Everblight? Skar-bomb? Long Gunners & Trenchers? Cane?

The whole theme of out-cheesing each other is bad enough in the last few GW armies without the nutters who wrote the WM units getting their hands on it (don't get me wrong, I love the system, just not what they've done with it).

Lordsaradain
12-03-2010, 10:24
The current ork codex is pretty good, so why not the same guy?

Worsle
12-03-2010, 10:41
Andy Chambers. Who else? Seriously, how long did we play and win with his Old Codex?

Apart from him, Phil Kelly.
Just because I found everything I needed in the New Codex.
Excepted Makari...
I think we, Orks players, are very, very lucky: our two last Codecies were well thought and well balanced. Even if I agree with most things that were written above, we still have a great Codex that allows quiet a lot of styles of play to be viable.

But there's no hurry to have a new Codex: if something is not broken, do not try to fix it.
What would happen to us if GW tried to "fix it" with Matt Ward?

Yes can't let Matt Ward do it maybe orks would get a good codex like SM rather than the useless nonsense they have now. Not that I can blame the current book to much on Phil Kelly as he can written a good book (see SW for reference) but any one who thinks the one dimensional garbage orks have been given is a good book does not know what is going on.

Orks where written with no staying power and almost seem to have been made to have zero staying power in the 5th edition. The worst transport in the game, horrible troop choices, terrible anti tank, the only 2 good units in elite with no real way of separating them out (as you need 1 warboss to move 1 nob squad out of elites, expensive and blocks the big meck), you need the big mech to make half the vehicles last long enough to work, fast attack is filled with land speeder parallels only worse and I am sure I can go on given more time to think. Like oh the battlewagon being so narrow you can't do anything to stop the AV12 shots or interaction fearless and ork boyz. Book pretty much needs to be reset given how many problems their are in it.

Lord of Worms :rolleyes:

Vaktathi
12-03-2010, 11:30
Orks with horrible troop choices? 30 model T4 fearless units lack staying power? An individual ork dies relatively easily. 30 do not. Trukk's are far from the worst transport in the game. They rush forward, and drop off dudes or die...and drop off dudes in the process. Very cheap, very fast, no frills, whats not to like?

AT is only a problem for AV13/14 at range. Anything AV12 or less dies to loota's very quickly. AV13/14 dies very quickly to powerklaws and a bajillion glancing hits in CC. Really, it's the Land Raider and Monolith that Orks have a problem with.

Pink Horror
12-03-2010, 11:42
I would like for them to write all the codices as a team, instead of the current mess of different authors with different styles.

Cheeslord
12-03-2010, 11:58
I would like it to be written by someone new, who would check the rules they have actually written for self consistency, internal and external balance and interaction with the main rules and other codices, and maybe even playtest them a bit before allowing the codex to be published.

mark.

Worsle
12-03-2010, 12:04
Trukk is AV10, open topped, does not even give you a proper wreckage to hide behind and as it is not a tank I can just delay you with speeders and you can't even try and tank shock me out of the way. They will blow up, they will not drop you off anywhere because they will have already blown up, but even if they do drop you somewhere a 12 man ork squad is a joke. No trukks are the worst transport in the game bar none, and when we are playing a game that makes mech normally so useful it means the other player can't help but have the tools to brush the trukks of the table. Even if we have a big mech with is kff trukks don't survive long enough to matter against good players.

Lootas are the only and I do mean the only ranged ranged anti tank orks have, sure they are fairly nice but you can only get 3 squads of them at the most. An other problem is lootas are elites, nobs the only good combat squad orks have are elites this is a big problem. As I said you get 1 nob squad in troops for every 1 warboss so if you want good combat squads you have to cut into your anti tank and also make it easier to deal with by having less off it. 2 warbosses is both expensive and means you can't get the kff, how great is that? Next as lootas can't be relied on to do everything by them selves no matter how good they are (note that are not that good either, just better than everything else by a long shot) we need to take other things to back them up and those are? Seems we are kind of left with deathrollas, power klaws and tl rokkets. Deathrollas are a form of tank shocking witch has its limitations and can be countered, also as I already said the battlewagon leaves its AV12 sides wide open. Klaws need to hit and against a good player that is on 6s not that impressive. But Worsle I made the tank move that stopped if from preforming as well as if it had stayed still. Yes but the tank is still alive and you klaw did nothing so who do you think won? Hint it is not the ork player. Well the tl rokkets in your fast are kind of ok at best. Fragile platforms and not really any good against inf, like land speeders but only a lot worse.

Now we get to the ork boys a big mass waiting for someone to come and kick it. Really this could be an all right squad if the codex could support it but with this mess of a codex that is not the case. Fearless does a number on them, large squads are just begging to be tank shocked into a nice flamer ready huddle too. Really either you have far to small a squad in a transport about to be kicked from under you or a large walking target with no real support. The ork slugga is the poster child for why theoryhammering what a sigle guy can do does not work.

I am not saying orks can not win even with all this, against really low level compition orks might even do better than most other books. This is mostly because orks are a really easy army to play. However the better the opposition gets the less and less an ork player can expect to win and this drop off is very steep.

Jagged
12-03-2010, 13:07
I would like for them to write all the codices as a team, instead of the current mess of different authors with different styles.

Thats far too sensible! YOU ARE BANNED! :(

Logarithm Udgaur
12-03-2010, 13:11
The more I read your posts Worsle, the more I am convinced that you are reading a different book than the 4th Ed Ork codex I read.

sephiroth87
12-03-2010, 13:18
He's wrong. And possibly an idiot. But this is the internet, so I can't tell if he's just trolling.

The ork codex is way, way better than it used to be. Try playing for 8 years with 8 point orks and 30 point bikes, 13 AV battlewagons, lootas that kill themselves, and tell me it's worse.

It also has well written fluff and way more of it. The last book was, what, 70-80 pages? Someone would give Worsle the Hope Diamond and the only thing he would say is that it was too heavy around his neck. :D

LonelyPath
12-03-2010, 15:24
When all is said and done, I love the current Ork codex, definately one of the best out there and it routainely beats the tar out of most armies it faces. Out of the victories listed in my signature, 4 of them have been with my tabling my opponent, including those based on the strengths of the current SW, IG and Nid codecis. The worst I've done against SM is a draw. Those times I have lost? It's down to my own Objective Blindness, where I forget to claim or contest them, something I do with every army (oops, heh).

The Ork codex makes it simple to put a list together and everything is simple enough to use, but there is still finesse needed in making it all work and finding the right balance. Meks with KFF are nice, but I prefer my 2 Warbosses, which cost about 5 points more than a Mek with KFF and burna by the time I've loaded them up with goodies, so how are they much more expensive? They also give me those Nob mobs as troops choices, which I load into Battlewagons and send on their way.

Yes, trukks aren't great, but get 4 of them and 2 battlewagons hurtling toward the enemy and it's not to simple to stop everything, even more so when backed up with mobs of lootas (I normally take at least 2 mobs).

Worsle
12-03-2010, 18:47
Ah the internet where having an opposing view the other person can't counter makes you a troll.

LonelyPath you mind telling me what those lists that play to the strength of the new books where and are you playing at 1500 points? Tell me in pm if you think it will clutter up the thread but it will answer a few thoughts in my head. Now I am going to assume you are playing on a standard enough board with enough terrain too as lot of things go weird without that. So with all that in place simple how are those trukks surviving past turn one? As I keep saying it but AV10 and the positive modifier on the damage table from open topped should see of those trukks against anyone with a real amount of anti tank, IG would be extra nasty in that regard. That would leave you with just the wagons. As I have said the narrow model is really a curse here, it would be hard not to get side shots off against it and then you are down to AV12. It is also still open topped unless you get an 'ard case and loose the ability to assault out of it, making it even more vulnerable.

That is just when shooting at it there are other tactics good players can use. Trukks can't ram unless you play for it making them more expensive than a rhino (think about that) meaning I can park some land speeders on fount of your trukks and you are stuck. This works even if you do get the ram too because of the 3+ save skimmers get to ramming. With me speeder blocking your path you have o choce but to go round it quite possibly into terain that could immobilize you and a good player will make you keep to the minim distance from their skimmers. Sure you could shoot the skimmers down but shooting comes after movement and having waisted your turn the skimmers have done their job. So even if I did fail to kill them some how in the first turn it would not matter as you don't get to move forward anyway.

it is not like I don't want orks to be good it is jut you have to face facts on this subject.

BobTheZombie
12-03-2010, 19:02
I'd be perfectly happy with Phil Kelly writing the codex when we eventually get a new one. I have a few niggles with the current codex, but as my other armies are Chaos Space Marines and Daemons, I recognise that it could be worse.

I'd like to see an expansion of the looted wagon rules, allowing much more scope for conversion. The thing that attracted me to Orks in the first place was seeing people's looted falcons, russes, monoliths etc. Some room to upgrade AV, more weapon options and deffrollas would be most welcome. I agree with the need for more Meganob options, more special characters, etc as other people have more elegantly stated. The shiny new models should keep me happy until the new book is written, though.

Badger[Fr]
12-03-2010, 19:15
Eh, it feels like someone had to parrot Stelek... The current Orks Codex is ill-suited to the current, heavily mechanized edition, but it was a solid, well-balanced, 4th Edition book. Don't blame Phil Kelly for its discrepancies.


Trukks can't ram unless you play for it making them more expensive than a rhino (think about that) meaning I can park some land speeders on fount of your trukks and you are stuck.
And how are Rhinos or even Land Raiders better? The Speeder has a 3+ save against ramming, and a S5 Land Raider hit is unlikely to destroy it. Trukks are indeed mediocre, but your argument is flawed.

Worsle
12-03-2010, 19:42
For a land raider list it is an issue but for rhinos not so much. The tactic is a solid one to use against any army that has to advance on you and orks are one of them. Now if we where discussing the flaws of a raider army this would be a good point to bring up there too. Orks in trukks need to advance and without the ability to ram or tank shock anything can get you stuc not just the speeders (they are just my default though as they are so good at it), this is a problem and should be remembered.

Also I am not blaming Phil Kelly but orks where made very close to the 5th edition rules and meant to be 5th edition complient when no forward thinking put into them. I blaim GW as a whole for that problem.

DuskRaider
12-03-2010, 21:21
...They will blow up, they will not drop you off anywhere because they will have already blown up, but even if they do drop you somewhere a 12 man ork squad is a joke. No trukks are the worst transport in the game bar none...

You're off your rocker, boy. I play almost exclusively a Trukk army, and I can tell you it's neither ineffective nor a joke. Yeah, Trukks easily bite the big one... What do you want? They're open-topped and fast, which means with RPJ and depending on how the enemy sets their side of the board up, I can assault him first turn. Right out of the gate.

A 12-man squad of Orks may seem weak compared to a 30-man squad of Orks, but if you're using Trukk Boyz, you should be smart enough to know you don't send a single Trukk full of Boyz at a target. Yeah, Trukks are fragile, they have 0% staying power, and they may not always get you exactly where you want to go due to this, but they're still a hell of a choice and having the ability to move what? 27" in a turn when you jump out, I'd say they're a damn fine choice.

BTW, you should be putting "in my opinion (IMO)" on your posts, because making it sound like a fact is only getting people to jump on you quicker. Just some advice, bud.

Badger[Fr]
12-03-2010, 21:54
To be fair, he still has a point about Trukks. Even a single Autocannon can cripple one reliably, whereas even the humble Rhino tends to be a tough nut to crack without AP1 weapons. As a consequence, you must spam tens of Trukks if you expect even half of your army to reach the enemy lines. And the Orks inside aren't that impressive either, considering how vulnerable they are.

BigBossOgryn
12-03-2010, 22:15
So, from reading this thread:

1. Cruddace could write the book and 90% of IG and 10% of Nid players will gush. The opposite ratio will denounce it as 'yet another reason Cruddace shouldn't write a codex, blah blah I could have done better...'

Except you couldn't. Except you don't understand the full picture of what goes into codex creation. You're just making yourselves look like whiners.

2. Old-school GW writers would be welcome to come back and 'ave anuvver go'.

Except they can't/won't/shouldn't.

3. On wish-listing:

Get rid of the 0-1 on Ard Boyz
Put Nazdreg back in
Better looted vehicle entry
Cheapen the Flash Gitz

GrogDaTyrant
12-03-2010, 22:47
2. Old-school GW writers would be welcome to come back and 'ave anuvver go'.


Only Andy Chambers, I think. The other old-school writers I wouldn't be happy with...



3. On wish-listing:

Get rid of the 0-1 on Ard Boyz
Put Nazdreg back in
Better looted vehicle entry
Cheapen the Flash Gitz

Add:
Restore the 2d6 Armor Penetration to Zzap Guns (the auto-shaken can stay or go... I could care less about that).
Mob Rule to count wounds, not models.
Transport options for Tankbustas, Burnas, and Flashgitz.
Some ranged anti-tank options, even if they're only Str 9.
Gunwagons. Allow for a non glorified-transport tank with AT potential.
I'd personally prefer to see an I 3 base for Boyz, at a slight pts increase.
Tone down the WAC abuse on Nob mobs.
Give MANz access to Cybork bodies, Bosspoles, and possible other weapon options (and keep WAC abuse minimal).
Give Wazzdakka an Invuln save, or make his gun twin-linked... or both.
Make a standard Warboss on Bike allow Warbikes as troops (which makes sense fluff-wise).
Warpheads/Wierdboyz given equipment, armor, cybork, and some method of psychic defense.
If Warpheads/Wierdboyz are NOT improved, then dump them down to Elites and make them a unit.

Other improvements could be:
Give Burnas back to boyz mobs.
Give weapon options to Warbikes and Stormboyz (possibly even an 'Eavy armor option to Stormboyz).
HQ characters for every clan, allowing for the possibility of theming an army.
Allow for 'Uge Choppa weapon upgrades among units of Boyz (probably at the expense of ranged weapon upgrades)
A free beer with every codex purchase.
And a pony, while I'm making wishes.

sorienor
13-03-2010, 05:03
Ah the internet where having an opposing view the other person can't counter makes you a troll.

Other people can and have countered your points. You respond with "nuh-uh".

I'm sorry your points are hyperbole at best and don't accurately reflect reality.

-Ork boys are one of the best troop choices in the game. They are better in close combat then most army's elite CC units. With the KFF and run rule they have the survivability to make into close combat.
-When talking about exposing AV12 you forget that even within melta range AV12 with a KFF is statistically harder to kill then AV14 with no cover save.
-Most of your points are "I can counter unit x with y" but you can't do everything you want in a single turn. For example, you can either block trukks with speeders or try and melta a battlewagon. Ork units are cheap enough to cause an over-saturation of targets.
-Trukks are fragile. We know that. That does not make them bad. The ramshakle table is amazing boost to that fragility. And again, if you shoot a trukk and then shoot the boys, that is less shooting to other units. In fact, please do so..

I could go on and on but basically theoryhammer in any form is useless against orks and that is what all your posts are..theoryhammer. Nothing you post holds up to the reality of the game table.

While everyone was cooing over the leafblower last year, Orks were on all 3 of the top tables. Neither the wolves, nids nor BA will change that... they may not be the top army (I have to go with IG on that one) but are just 1 step down.

shabbadoo
13-03-2010, 07:25
As far as being competitive goes, the current Ork codex is very competative. Not to toot my own horn or anything, but I haven't lost a single game using Orks since the latest codex came out for 4E, and the all comers list I play is not over-the top by any means. Granted, I don't play very often, but I have played at least 40 games in that time against a variety of opponents with varying skill levels. I have had only two ties, and those were near massacres that would have seen my opponents tabled(they each had two models remaining to my 30-40) if the two games had not randomly ended on the very first dice first dice roll. So, I am a bit biased as to how playable the Ork codex is. ;)

Worsle brings up some valid points about the weaknesses of Orks, but those weaknesses can be gotten around easily enough in my experience through the proper application of force/tactics.

As to the 'Ard Boyz thing, yes, I would drop the 0-1 limitation too. Let people take it or not, and not just for basic Boyz but for other units too like Lootas(they could...um...loot it?), Tankbustas("eksplodin' vehikulz killz us a bit too gud!"), and Burnas(assault troops without armor?). Don't make it an option for Kommandos though, as sneaky gits travel light. So, you could have an Ork army with lots of 'eavy armor, but that will of course severely cut into the army's total model count. Would be nice to have a choice though.

Arnizipal
13-03-2010, 15:20
I had to step in to remove some trolling and flaming form this thread.
Play nice in the future or I'll be forced to close this thread down.


Arnizipal,

++ The Warseer Moderation Team ++

Ravens Claw
14-03-2010, 09:31
Matt Wilson...he'd do a good job!

Jagged
15-03-2010, 12:15
@shabbadoo: I agree. While I don't think the Initiative and Leadership levels in the Codex were designed with the current assault rules in mind I would not dare to call our codex weak or underpowered. Like most I think our codex has some unnecessary limitations that could be relaxed and no one* would cry we were over powered.




* Who am I kidding? Of course someone would, this is the Intraweb!