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Maelstorm
10-03-2010, 10:07
Yo

Im soon going to compete in my first big tournament, and was just wondering...is there any usual tournament-combos i should know/worry about?

I talk about things like BT with obsidian armour, infinite hatred; waraltar archlector with sepcculum, Lizzies with 2-3 stegs and such.

So, simply, what usually shows up at the other side of the table, and how do i take care of it?

If it matters, i play a cav-heavy slaanesh WoC-army with a dragon-sroc, disc-sorc and a fighty-disc.


Restrictions:
-Max. 1 of each rare choice (Max.2 of each for High Elves)
- Max. 2 of the same Special choice
- Max. 3 of the same Core choice, except ranked infantry without missile weapons and beast herds.
- Max. 3 chariots (incl. characters and units).
- Max. 3 units of flyers (incl. characters)
- Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines, characters and chariots).
- Max. 5 warmachines.
- Max. 9 PD in an army *

DAEMONS OF CHAOS - All Greater Daemons count as an additional hero choice; Herald BSB may take either daemonic gifts or a daemonic icon, not both; Daemonic Gifts may not be duplicated (except for Spellbreakers); Horrors are limited to 0-2.
DARK ELVES -Max. 35 repeater crossbows in the army; Max. 8 shades per unit; Max. 2 flying units or characters; Assassins after the first take a hero choice; Pendant of khaleth takes a hero choice; Ring of hotek takes a hero choice; Max. 1 Large Target; Max. 1 Rare choice
EMPIRE - Steam Tank counts as 2 rare choices; Max. 3 Wizards (Including the Arch Lector)
LIZARDMEN - Characters mounted on Stegadons also use the relevant special or rare slot; Max. 6 Terradons in army (excl. characters); All disciplines taken after the third count as an additional hero slot (Slann BSB counts as 1, Becalming Cogitation as 2 Disciplines); max. 2 Stegadons of any type
ORCS & GOBLINS - Max 6 goblin fanatics.
VAMPIRE COUNTS - The Drakenhoff banner counts as an additional hero choice; The Helm of Command counts as an additional hero choice; Each +1 to cast in the army counts as 1 powerdice in each phase. Max. 5 Cairn Wraiths
WOOD ELVES - Treeman Ancient counts as Treeman.

The Red Scourge
10-03-2010, 10:38
Since you've already got your list, does it matter? :)

Maelstorm
10-03-2010, 10:42
It can change if I need to, just thought i get an idea of what ppl tend to bring^^

phoenixguard09
10-03-2010, 10:43
Of course it matters Scourge. :D He wants to now what shows up usually. So where exactly is this tournament?

Whistler
10-03-2010, 10:44
Looks to me like that's one hell of a restrictions list... Honestly, i would not play in this kind of tourney, restricting other players and myself from using what i want. If u want a "friendly players" only tourney, just say so and rate ppl's armylist when they enter them, instead of making a list like that...

sorberec
10-03-2010, 11:05
I don't think there's a real answer to this question. Most tournaments have their own comp systems so what people bring will depend on the restrictions.

Falkman
10-03-2010, 11:18
If u want a "friendly players" only tourney, just say so and rate ppl's armylist when they enter them, instead of making a list like that...
Oh lord...
Those are the ETC (European Team Championship) restrictions, and they're used in one of the more hardcore tournaments in the world. People still tend to take REALLY nasty lists even though those restrictions exist.

So to Maelstorm, expect really nasty lists, Bloodthirsters with full kits, Dragonlords, lots of shooting etc. No-one (at least not those who wants to win) really play with big blocks of troops in these kind of settings, people will generally use monsters, shooting, magic and avoidy troops, so be prepared for that.

Maelstorm
10-03-2010, 11:31
Thanks guys, just keep ´em coming.

@Whistler, even if thing are pretty restricted, it´s mostly for the best. I´ve played some games with these restrictions and met some pretty nasty lists, for example a Lizardmen with dual stegadons and a TG-slann block.

@Phoenixguard: It´s in Sweden, think it is the Swedish Championship.

From what I´ve heard Deamons, Lizzies, DE and VC will pull the nastiest combos in this tourney.

Siren song Kepper , BT,
Dual stegs,
ASF BG, Assasin-Shades,
ASF HoC Grave Guards
and so on.

Anything I´ve missed?

Whistler
10-03-2010, 11:38
I really do feel stupid now... My humblest apologies to Falkman ^^.

Anywayz, i think you just summed it up, Maelstorm, nothing else i can think of at the moment.

Stumpy
10-03-2010, 11:56
I suspect you're going into a meanie-tourney, where people take horrible lists so they can win without skill or so they can compete against other insanity. While I'd be quite happy playing with those restrictions (my armies are all fine by them anyway) I'm getting the idea that to try and curb the worst of it because otherwise people will do the worst.

phoenixguard09
10-03-2010, 11:58
Well not being in Swden I can't tell you what they'll be taking. :D

But WoC Knights with all manner of nastiness and Dark Elf Black Guard spams are common in tournaments where I play. Hope this helps.

Lordsaradain
10-03-2010, 14:15
@Phoenixguard: It´s in Sweden, think it is the Swedish Championship.




Oh really, where in Sweden might I ask?

What is the points limit?

Maelstorm
10-03-2010, 14:52
In the beutiful metropol of västerås if I´m not mistaken.

It´s 2250 pts with the restrictions up top in this thread. If you play deamons you just get 2000 pts, if you play OK, OnG you get 2600 pts

Lord Malorne
10-03-2010, 15:06
Looks to me like that's one hell of a restrictions list... Honestly, i would not play in this kind of tourney, restricting other players and myself from using what i want. If u want a "friendly players" only tourney, just say so and rate ppl's armylist when they enter them, instead of making a list like that...

Then you have not read it really well, are you wanting duplicate organ guns? The only real restrictions is gunline (of course) and magic spam, to be fair, makes it easier for Daemons.

tmarichards
10-03-2010, 15:39
Looking at those comp restrictions, I'd take some of these on my DEs:

ASF Black Guard with a Lord with the Excutioners Axe (my S is double your T up to a maximum of 10, each wound does D3 wounds), with the Ring of Hotek on the champion.

The Pendant BSB- if you come up against a DE player with a BSB ona dark steed, keep your dragon away from him! All he'll do is run the BSB into you and challenge, then put a units inot eh flank and rear to beat the drago on combat res. You're best bet to killing this guy is static res.

Rending Star assassins that can fly with a bound spell.

Maelstorm
10-03-2010, 15:48
Hmm, i find it highly unlikely to see a DE-list without any kind of magic or magic def. I´d just pop gateway/ flickering fire all day at everything that bothers me :D

Hmm, you know that both the pedant and the ring takes up a hero choice in this tournament? Which kinda removes the point of them, it´s just not worth it according to DE-players.

Anyway, thanks for the clues. The Asassin is almost always there.

Falkman
10-03-2010, 16:12
Ah you're going to the Swedish championship, we've been sparring a bit down at the local club in preparation of that (I live in Västerås). We've all been using pretty nasty lists, we're basically trying to come up with the nastiest stuff possible so we can practice against it, since we know it will be present at the tournament.
Dark Elves will probably not take both the Ring and the Pendant, though one of them might be included. Means they will only get one additional character after the Dragon though.

It's probably gonna be a pleasant event even though lots of people will bring nasty lists, there's always the guys who are there just to have fun (well we all want to have fun I assume), so you'll probably see some more relaxed lists as well, but I do promise you that you'll see a higher concentration of nasty lists than normal in Swedish tournaments, since this is not using the regular comp system.

Lordsaradain: If you're not familiar with the Swedish tournament scene, I suggest you check out http://swfbr.ipbhost.com/ if you have any interest in tournaments, since that is the forum for all bigger tournaments in Sweden.

Durloth
10-03-2010, 16:14
I attend a lot of tournaments, and I find that there are some common misconseptions about power levels at tournamets on this forum.

A normal tournament (here in Norway) will have between 20 and 50 players.

If we have 50 players, maybe ten of them will be of the "hard core" gamers, that travel to tourneys like Gigant Fanatic, ETC and other international happenings. These are the ones with the really, really hard lists and they have a tendency of ending up playing each other in all exept the first battle, due to the Swiss system, that matches players according to their score.
The forty other attendees see tournamets as a great way of meeting new gamers and playing against armies they seldom meet, usually just showing up with the same lists and combos they use for friendly games and after the first battle, this majority will also play against each other due to their skill and power level.

My point is that the majority of "tournament players" and games you will play at tournaments are completely normal games and you shuldn`t go there with cheese or expecting cheese.

BTW: OPs`tournaments comp is quite normal comp, but not ETC-comp.

This years ETC have the following restrictions:
Armies cannot be duplicated.
- Armies are 2000/2250/2600 points.
- No characters that are: special, named or Albion
- No DoW or RoR in non-DoW armies . (OK may use Rhinox Cav)
- No SoC armies.

The ladder system:
All armies are divided into three categories; A, B and C. Category A armies are limited to 2000pts, B to 2250pts, C to 2600pts

When calculating victory points at the end of the game, once you have the result, then add 10% to any category A army's losses rounding off as normal. Any category C army would conversely have its losses reduced by 20%

Category A (2000pts)
Demons of Chaos

Category B (2250pts)
Dark Elves
Vampires
Empire
Lizardmen
Skaven (to be confirmed end of February)
Bretonnia
Chaos Dwarfs
Dwarfs
High Elves
Warriors of Chaos
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves
Beastmen

Category C (2600pts)
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs & Goblins
Dogs of War

General composition rules:

- Band C Armies may have 6 Special and 4 Rare Choices.
- Max. 1 of each rare choice (Max.2 of each for High Elves)
- Max. 2 of the same Special choice
- Max. 3 of the same Core choice, except ranked infantry without missile weapons and beast herds.
- Max. 3 chariots (incl. characters and units).
- Max. 3 units of flyers (incl. characters)
- Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines, characters and chariots).
- Max. 5 warmachines.
- Max. 9 Power Dice in an army *

*Magic description
You can use a maximum of 9 power dice in each magic phase. Each bound spell you use count as 1 power dice, all following bound spells used in the same turn counts as 2 power dice.

Every ability that grants the bearer complete knowledge of a single lore counts as one power dice in each magic phase.

All dice you would not normally generate, such as Focused Rumination Slann free dice, Skaven warpstones, night goblin mushrooms, power of darkness etc., also count in the total number of dice you can use in a magic phase.

Tomb Kings count each dice they use for a spell as 1 power dice and casket of souls counts as 2 dice total. They can not chose not to use all the dice when casting an incantation, for example a Liche Priest can’t choose only to use 1 dice on a spell. You can how ever choose not to cast a spell with a model. The 2 basic power dice all armies get only counts if they are used to dispel RIP spells with.

Max 10 dispel dice per army. First dispel scroll (and similar working items) you have in your army counts as 1 dispel dice, in EACH magic phase. The second and all other scrolls, counts as 2 dispel dice in each magic phase. So if you have 3 scrolls you can use a maximum of 5 dispel dice each magic phase. Dice from magic resistance does count in this maximum. Being allowed to reroll your dispel dice every turn counts as 1 dispel dice.

Dice removed by the Chaos Dwarf Chalice of Darkness count as dice used. You remove 3 power dice, you can use only 6 more in your magic phase.

Race specific:
DAEMONS OF CHAOS - All Greater Daemons count as an additional hero choice; Herald BSB may take either daemonic gifts or a daemonic icon, not both; Daemonic Gifts may not be duplicated (except for Spellbreakers); Horrors are limited to 0-2.
DARK ELVES -Max. 35 repeater crossbows in the army; Max. 8 shades per unit; Max. 2 flying units or characters; Assassins after the first take a hero choice; Pendant of khaleth takes a hero choice; Ring of hotek takes a hero choice; Max. 1 Large Target; Max. 1 Rare choice
EMPIRE - Steam Tank counts as 2 rare choices; Max. 3 Wizards (Including the Arch Lector)
LIZARDMEN - Characters mounted on Stegadons also use the relevant special or rare slot; Max. 6 Terradons in army (excl. characters); All disciplines taken after the third count as an additional hero slot (Slann BSB counts as 1, Becalming Cogitation as 2 Disciplines); max. 2 Stegadons of any type
ORCS & GOBLINS - Max 6 goblin fanatics.
VAMPIRE COUNTS - The Drakenhoff banner counts as an additional hero choice; The Helm of Command counts as an additional hero choice; Each +1 to cast in the army counts as 1 powerdice in each phase. Max. 5 Cairn Wraiths
WOOD ELVES - Treeman Ancient counts as Treeman. Do not get an extra wood in any scenarios. Instead, after choosing side, and playing capture markers, the wood elf player may move one wood on the table up to 2d6 inches in any direction. This may not bring the wood withing 6 inches of a capture marker or special feature. If it is already within 6 inches of a marker, it may not be moved this way.
SKAVEN: Max. 3 large targets (Hell Pit Abomination and Doomwheel count as 2 each; HPA also counts as 2 rare slots); for each unit of Clanrats/Stormvermin you may have up to 1 unit each of Skavenslaves, Rat Swarms and Giant Rats; Stormbanner is BSB only; Doom Rocket, Poison Wind Mortar, Jezzail units and a Doomweel count as warmachines. Storm Banner er One Use Only!

Falkman
10-03-2010, 16:22
My point is that the majority of "tournament players" and games you will play at tournaments are completely normal games and you shuldn`t go there with cheese or expecting cheese.

BTW: OPs`tournaments comp is quite normal comp, but not ETC-comp.
Absolutely agree, but since this tournament is dubbed "the Swedish championship" I think the power level is gonna be a bit higher than usual, especially since the ETC rules (which are used btw, the OP just didn't quote them completely) allow much more nasty stuff than usual comped tournaments in Sweden.
Most of the tournaments in Sweden uses a comp where you actually gain something even if you don't bring a hardcore list, whereas the ETC rules have no such bonuses for nicer lists, so the incentive to bring a nice list doesn't really exist in the same manner. No doubt some guys will bring whatever fun/nice stuff they want anyway, but I do absolutely expect the power level to be higher than usual here in Sweden, and people going to this tournament should be expecting that.

Maelstorm
10-03-2010, 16:25
@Falkman, Loa: I know you have, I´ve been playing there aswell^^ Point taken about PoK and RoH, as virtually no DE-player is going to come without a dragon if they can get thiere hands on one.

Any more nasty comboes people can come to think of?

Falkman
10-03-2010, 16:27
You one of the guys from Västerås as well? Who are you then?
I need to know :p

Skyros
10-03-2010, 16:38
*Magic description
You can use a maximum of 9 power dice in each magic phase. Each bound spell you use count as 1 power dice, all following bound spells used in the same turn counts as 2 power dice.

Every ability that grants the bearer complete knowledge of a single lore counts as one power dice in each magic phase.

All dice you would not normally generate, such as Focused Rumination Slann free dice, Skaven warpstones, night goblin mushrooms, power of darkness etc., also count in the total number of dice you can use in a magic phase.

Tomb Kings count each dice they use for a spell as 1 power dice and casket of souls counts as 2 dice total. They can not chose not to use all the dice when casting an incantation, for example a Liche Priest can’t choose only to use 1 dice on a spell. You can how ever choose not to cast a spell with a model. The 2 basic power dice all armies get only counts if they are used to dispel RIP spells with.

Max 10 dispel dice per army. First dispel scroll (and similar working items) you have in your army counts as 1 dispel dice, in EACH magic phase. The second and all other scrolls, counts as 2 dispel dice in each magic phase. So if you have 3 scrolls you can use a maximum of 5 dispel dice each magic phase. Dice from magic resistance does count in this maximum. Being allowed to reroll your dispel dice every turn counts as 1 dispel dice.

These magic restrictions, frankly, sound retarded. A level 3 bound spell counting as 2 power dice? What?

It sounds like if you took an arch lectors and 3 warrior priests, they couldn't even all use their wimpy bound spells in the same magic phase?

Falkman
10-03-2010, 16:55
These magic restrictions, frankly, sound retarded. A level 3 bound spell counting as 2 power dice? What?

It sounds like if you took an arch lectors and 3 warrior priests, they couldn't even all use their wimpy bound spells in the same magic phase?
Those comments, frankly, sounds typical from an arrogant American (see what I did there?).
If you wanna take an Arch lector + 3 Warrior priests the magic restrictions should be your least concern anyway, you should be thinking more about how you're going to win with a retarded list like that.

If you don't like the restrictions, fine, you're not going to the tournament anyway, so just shut up and leave if you don't have anything constructive to come up with. Warhammer is played differently in Europe compared to in the states, live with that. No-holds-barred tournaments are very rare in Europe, for a reason, the game is not balanced for that.

Grey Mage
10-03-2010, 16:56
Yo
Restrictions:
-Max. 1 of each rare choice (Max.2 of each for High Elves)
- Max. 2 of the same Special choice
- Max. 3 of the same Core choice, except ranked infantry without missile weapons and beast herds.
- Max. 3 chariots (incl. characters and units).
- Max. 3 units of flyers (incl. characters)
- Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines, characters and chariots).
- Max. 5 warmachines.
- Max. 9 PD in an army *

DAEMONS OF CHAOS - All Greater Daemons count as an additional hero choice; Herald BSB may take either daemonic gifts or a daemonic icon, not both; Daemonic Gifts may not be duplicated (except for Spellbreakers); Horrors are limited to 0-2.
DARK ELVES -Max. 35 repeater crossbows in the army; Max. 8 shades per unit; Max. 2 flying units or characters; Assassins after the first take a hero choice; Pendant of khaleth takes a hero choice; Ring of hotek takes a hero choice; Max. 1 Large Target; Max. 1 Rare choice
EMPIRE - Steam Tank counts as 2 rare choices; Max. 3 Wizards (Including the Arch Lector)
LIZARDMEN - Characters mounted on Stegadons also use the relevant special or rare slot; Max. 6 Terradons in army (excl. characters); All disciplines taken after the third count as an additional hero slot (Slann BSB counts as 1, Becalming Cogitation as 2 Disciplines); max. 2 Stegadons of any type
ORCS & GOBLINS - Max 6 goblin fanatics.
VAMPIRE COUNTS - The Drakenhoff banner counts as an additional hero choice; The Helm of Command counts as an additional hero choice; Each +1 to cast in the army counts as 1 powerdice in each phase. Max. 5 Cairn Wraiths
WOOD ELVES - Treeman Ancient counts as Treeman.

This.... sucks. The restriction on ranged weapons just sucks for most Wood Elf builds wich sucks doubly since its probly aimed at Dwarves, the O+G restriction just killed Night Goblins as a playable army, Max 9 PD? Screw off.

Seriously, whoever made this tournament needs to get a better system... this has horrid bias smeered all over it.

Lord Inquisitor
10-03-2010, 16:59
Those comments, frankly, sounds typical from an arrogant American (see what I did there?).

You mean make a bigoted and borderline racist personal attack as a retort to a perfectly on-topic and inoffensive, if blunt, post?

Falkman
10-03-2010, 16:59
It is not made to allow "fun, fluffy" lists like NG, it is made to stop the worst stuff doable with most armies. As I just stated, Warhammer is played differently in Europe compared to the states, live with it or shut up. You don't see me barging into every thread about American tournaments and shouting off about how retarded player-judged comp, or no comp at all, is, do you?


You mean make a bigoted and borderline racist personal attack as a retort to a perfectly on-topic and inoffensive, if blunt, post?
Americans are not a race (as a matter of fact I believe America is one of the more diverse countries in the world when it comes to nationalities), thus it cannot be bigotry or racism. And as far as I know far from all Americans are arrogant, and my comment was aimed at arrogant Americans, if you missed that part?

I just get very tired about people (and yes, it mainly is Americans) spewing crap all over the comp systems we use in Europe. You don't have to like it, but please just shut up about it since it won't affect you anyway.

Grey Mage
10-03-2010, 17:06
Americans are a Race just as much as the French or the Swedes are.

That being said I think that while some of these restrictions are good ideas, many of them are counter productive- the restriction on ranged weapons as an example... what do you expect a WE player to do? Run straight Forest Spirits? Like that isnt one of their best tournament builds anyways.....

Some these dont even make sense either... "treeman ancient counts as a treeman" does that mean you can take a lord in a rare slot?

And if your kicking daemons down to a lower point level, why are they adding on alot of restrictions on top of it? I can see the restrictions... no duplicating gifts, BSB gets icon or gifts but not both.... but why both? It seems overly harsh towards them.

Lord Inquisitor
10-03-2010, 17:08
It is not made to allow "fun, fluffy" lists like NG, it is made to stop the worst stuff doable with most armies. As I just stated, Warhammer is played differently in Europe compared to the states, live with it or shut up. You don't see me barging into every thread about American tournaments and shouting off about how retarded player-judged comp, or no comp at all, is, do you?
I've seen many variations on the "european" comp systems in place in US tournaments as well as the more traditionally "american" comp council systems, and I've played with no-comp tournies in europe. Don't be so naive as to assume that there is one way for european tournaments and one way for american. Some are good, others suck, none are perfect. I've played under a tournament very similar to the one posted (in Washington D.C.) and I can tell you right off the bat Dark Elves and Vamps shouldn't be in the B bracket, for starters.


Americans are not a race, thus it cannot be bigotry or racism. And as far as I know far from all Americans are arrogant, and my comment was aimed at arrogant Americans, if you missed that part?
*Shrug* Derogatory nationalistic sterotyping, whatever. You still came across as a jerk.

Durloth
10-03-2010, 17:23
the O+G restriction just killed Night Goblins as a playable army, Max 9 PD? Screw off.


Night Goblins by them selves are hardly a playable race at the moment anyway. The comp is there to remove a couple of the harder O&G builds, as their 2600 points and 20% VP bonus, already makes them the probably most powerful army at the tournament.

While Falkman is a bit harsh, I don`t really find your comment
Screw off constructive.. Comp is controversial over here too and is constantly discussed, changed or ignored. The thing to keep in mind is that, when done right, it makes WFB a better game and, no matter how it`s implemented, presents new tactical and strategical challenges. It shuld be seen as a challenge, rather than as a restriction:)

Edit: Swedes are no more a race, than Americans or French. They`re nationalities.

Falkman
10-03-2010, 17:25
Americans are a Race just as much as the French or the Swedes are.

That being said I think that while some of these restrictions are good ideas, many of them are counter productive- the restriction on ranged weapons as an example... what do you expect a WE player to do? Run straight Forest Spirits? Like that isnt one of their best tournament builds anyways.....

Some these dont even make sense either... "treeman ancient counts as a treeman" does that mean you can take a lord in a rare slot?

And if your kicking daemons down to a lower point level, why are they adding on alot of restrictions on top of it? I can see the restrictions... no duplicating gifts, BSB gets icon or gifts but not both.... but why both? It seems overly harsh towards them.
This is not really a forum for it but suffice to say neither French or Swedes are races either, they're nationalities.

A Wood elf player should run a mixed army, like all armies should do. If you regularly actually run with an army with more than 45 bows in it I'd be surprised, my usual Wood elf army contains like 30 bows and the rest is combat troops, still works really well.
The Treeman thing means that since the restrictions disallow doubling up on rare choices, taking a Treeman Ancient means that you can't take a normal Treeman as well.
And not to be rude or anything but I kinda doubt your grasp of the game if you actually think all forest is the best build with woodies. Maybe when they were released, but not since the Daemon book came out.

Tbh I find the Daemon restrictions almost too nice, you can still make absolutely nasty lists with Daemons even though you run with less points AND tacked on restrictions AND lose more VP than others. I played a training game against a friend who plays Beastmen (and he's a better player than me), and even though he had 600 pts more, I lost an additional 10% VP and he reduced his losses with 20%, I still massacred him off the board having lost no more than 800 pts of my army, all he had left was a single chariot. Daemons are really that broken of an army that they still work under these restrictions. Case in point being that even though last years' Daemon restrictions were even more severe, almost every team going to the ETC had a Daemon army with them.


I've seen many variations on the "european" comp systems in place in US tournaments as well as the more traditionally "american" comp council systems, and I've played with no-comp tournies in europe. Don't be so naive as to assume that there is one way for european tournaments and one way for american. Some are good, others suck, none are perfect. I've played under a tournament very similar to the one posted (in Washington D.C.) and I can tell you right off the bat Dark Elves and Vamps shouldn't be in the B bracket, for starters.

*Shrug* Derogatory nationalistic sterotyping, whatever. You still came across as a jerk.
I know Americans use different variations of comp as well, but the general impression I've gotten on these forums is that us Europeans use comp more often, and more stricter comp systems. I agree that Dark Elves don't belong in the B bracket, but there's not much to do about it, so instead of bitching about it, actually do what the OP asks for instead :)

gregtuck
10-03-2010, 17:36
Are Orc & Goblins really so terrible that they need to be allowed extra points just to be competitive?

Grey Mage
10-03-2010, 17:36
I dont see it as a challenge, I see it as the inability for a tomb king player to recover their losses during a battle in a timely manner- and I think its horrible that the DD cap is higher than the PD cap- when the system was designed to be the other way around.

A challenge? Make it something that most armies can deal with but most players dont do- no lord choices for an example, no dispell scrolls or a max of 1 per army, no identical units outside of the core section. No special characters isnt a bad idea, but I hope they dont do that for 40k, where some entire armies require it to even play... like deathwing.

Want to bring DoC back in line? Not doubling up on daemonic gifts and restricting horrors just did quite a bit for that one.

The problem with "when done right" is that everyone has a different opinion of what it is when done right. What seems perfectly reasonable to one will seem grossly unfair to another. What is unbalanced, what is balanced? Giving someone a 600pt advantage is balanced? No, Im sorry but these just seem to go to far.

The irony is, that none of these restrictions would change the composition of my lizardmen army one bit... but I still think theyre grossly unfair to a number of armies and playstyles out there that arent "hard".

Edit:

A Wood elf player should run a mixed army, like all armies should do. If you regularly actually run with an army with more than 45 bows in it I'd be surprised, my usual Wood elf army contains like 30 bows and the rest is combat troops, still works really well.


My GF runs Wood Elves, and her standard 2000pt list is based around 40 Glade Gaurd, a unit of warhawks, a unit of waywatchers, 1 noble and 2 mages of some sort... with some dryads, treekin, and wild riders thrown in at her whims. The one she took last month had 63 bows in it... it wasnt broken, it had a mixed play of ranged and CC in it... and I dont see why it should be punished, its not one of these offending lists.

I just cant see daemons as that broken either... they dont do well around here, removing special characters from WFB tournaments dropped their most powerful combos, and their magical offense isnt that severe.

Lord Inquisitor
10-03-2010, 17:49
I know Americans use different variations of comp as well, but the general impression I've gotten on these forums is that us Europeans use comp more often, and more stricter comp systems. I agree that Dark Elves don't belong in the B bracket, but there's not much to do about it, so instead of bitching about it, actually do what the OP asks for instead :)
Locally I've seen either a variation on this system or the wps comp system, both of which work reasonably well although they both have their quirks. So the european systems seem common enough, I believe the "american" systems are more common in other areas though.

Personally, I like to run a mono-Slaanesh Ld-bomb for tournaments but these restrictions kill that, and with the 250-600 point handicap, you can bet that you'd see the most point-effective units just to stay competitive. Probably still heavy on the Slaanesh, but you'll see flesh hounds and flamers in there. However, if you gave me free reign, I'd pick a VC, warriors, lizards or dark elf army. Probably my money on Dark Elves for the most cheese under these restrictions, as you can build an army that can excel in all four phases (movement, shooting, magic and combat).

Falkman
10-03-2010, 18:05
I think its horrible that the DD cap is higher than the PD cap- when the system was designed to be the other way around.

Giving someone a 600pt advantage is balanced? No, Im sorry but these just seem to go to far.

I just cant see daemons as that broken either... they dont do well around here, removing special characters from WFB tournaments dropped their most powerful combos, and their magical offense isnt that severe.
The DD cap is higher, sure, but you also reach it faster (by taking scrolls).

The sad thing is that even the 600 pts advantage (which you only have if you play a band C army against Daemons) isn't enough, even with the restrictions in place for the Daemons.

If you can't see Daemons as broken because your players don't do well with them, then you either run with restrictions that totally neuter the army, or your Daemon players are crap (or run with bad army lists, but that doesn't make the army bad, just that players' army list).

Maelstorm
10-03-2010, 18:29
@Falkman: I´m one of those new guys that have been haning around, not the one with the bandana, not the one with the beard, not the one with long hair....and thats leave you with me :P

@Grey mage: 600 pts more of O&G will be needed when facing deamons. Imagine having an army with ld around 6-7 and running into deamons,who is all fear. Panic anyone? O&G are consider one of the less good armys, thus they get more points to make up for it.

I think the restricion for missile weapons mostly are there just to eliminate the hardcore gunlines, say dwarves and empire-style.
Playing WE in 2250 with more than 45 bows would mean alot of Glade guards, and not much else, which i really wouldnt see working at tournaments anyways. Most WE tournaments have quite alot of forest spirits, as far as i have experienced. Still, 45 bows is alot of bows, so i wouldnt see it hampering a shooty-list all to much.

Stronginthearm
10-03-2010, 19:32
I just get very tired about people (and yes, it mainly is Americans) spewing crap all over the comp systems we use in Europe. You don't have to like it, but please just shut up about it since it won't affect you anyway.

Hooray for double standards, its ok for you to sneer at how uncultured we are for not using comp systems, or using different types but its not ok for us to make comments about the failings in your systems?

Falkman
10-03-2010, 19:40
I don't believe I've barged into a thread about an American tournament and started shouting about how stupid it is to run no-comp, care to show me where you found that?

The_Bureaucrat
10-03-2010, 19:41
The way I look at these restrictions.
I'd expect to see a lot of.
-(star) Dragons
-Plague Furances
-Knights
-ASF Blackgaurd
-Shade+assassin
-Flamers

Some thoughts:
-The limitation on bound spells costing 2 dice when more than 1 per turn is downright silly.
-I feel WoC and HE got off pretty easy. The lack of limitation on dragons/knights is pretty big.
-Stegs get hit pretty hard, although I wouldn't count out some Warspear+ETOG+slann as well as some good combat builds.
-WS7 ASF gravegaurd take a hit, because in order to give em ASF and Vanhels you need to burn at least one powerdice if not 2 and at least one hero slot. I'd guess many VC players swap for going knight heavy.
-Dwarfs could completely shut down magic without too much effort.
-I wouldn't expect empire or O+G to win anything.

Falkman
10-03-2010, 19:44
-I wouldn't expect empire or O+G to win anything.
Empire actually did really good last year, there was even talk about reducing the amount of points they get to play with this year, but that idea was scrapped in the end.

Durloth
10-03-2010, 21:22
I`m actually betting on O&G among the top 3 at the ETC trial tournament here in Oslo this weekend. It`s an army that had completely dissapeared amongs the more "hard core", but looking at this years sign up list, it is actually the most popular army.

I`ll report back on monday, as I guess the resoults can give us some kind of picture of the power levels out in practice.

@Falkman: Do you know how the accomodations and signing up at SM are?

Falkman
10-03-2010, 21:39
@Falkman: Do you know how the accomodations and signing up at SM are?
The signups are full already, with about 15 waiting in reserve. You could always pitch in for a reserve spot though, there's always a bunch of dropouts at every tournament here in Sweden.
I don't think there's a special deal with any hotels, at least nothing announced yet, so you'd probably just have to book a hotel room normally.
Here's the link to the tournament info, it's in Swedish but since you're Norwegian I think you can at least make sense of it: http://swfbr.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2667

knauden
10-03-2010, 21:43
If you're playing to win expect the worst..
Personally I would field an army based on a certain theme or fluff, and just play for fun :)

Annars önskar jag dig lycka till i turneringen, alldeles för långt iväg för mig att delta eller titta!

ChaosVC
11-03-2010, 08:39
If I have a choice, I would rather have a games day where everyone gathers to play and know each other than a stupid tourny where 90% of the players bring a max out list and try to bash each other and pretend to be friends...alas we humans are a competative species with an ego as big as our head. Thats whats normal in a tournament.

Condottiere
11-03-2010, 09:07
I attend a lot of tournaments, and I find that there are some common misconseptions about power levels at tournamets on this forum.

A normal tournament (here in Norway) will have between 20 and 50 players.

If we have 50 players, maybe ten of them will be of the "hard core" gamers, that travel to tourneys like Gigant Fanatic, ETC and other international happenings. These are the ones with the really, really hard lists and they have a tendency of ending up playing each other in all exept the first battle, due to the Swiss system, that matches players according to their score.
The forty other attendees see tournamets as a great way of meeting new gamers and playing against armies they seldom meet, usually just showing up with the same lists and combos they use for friendly games and after the first battle, this majority will also play against each other due to their skill and power level.

My point is that the majority of "tournament players" and games you will play at tournaments are completely normal games and you shuldn`t go there with cheese or expecting cheese.

BTW: OPs`tournaments comp is quite normal comp, but not ETC-comp.

This years ETC have the following restrictions:
Armies cannot be duplicated.
- Armies are 2000/2250/2600 points.
- No characters that are: special, named or Albion
- No DoW or RoR in non-DoW armies . (OK may use Rhinox Cav)
- No SoC armies.

The ladder system:
All armies are divided into three categories; A, B and C. Category A armies are limited to 2000pts, B to 2250pts, C to 2600pts

When calculating victory points at the end of the game, once you have the result, then add 10% to any category A army's losses rounding off as normal. Any category C army would conversely have its losses reduced by 20%

Category A (2000pts)
Demons of Chaos

Category B (2250pts)
Dark Elves
Vampires
Empire
Lizardmen
Skaven (to be confirmed end of February)
Bretonnia
Chaos Dwarfs
Dwarfs
High Elves
Warriors of Chaos
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves
Beastmen

Category C (2600pts)
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs & Goblins
Dogs of War

General composition rules:

- Band C Armies may have 6 Special and 4 Rare Choices.
- Max. 1 of each rare choice (Max.2 of each for High Elves)
- Max. 2 of the same Special choice
- Max. 3 of the same Core choice, except ranked infantry without missile weapons and beast herds.
- Max. 3 chariots (incl. characters and units).
- Max. 3 units of flyers (incl. characters)
- Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines, characters and chariots).
- Max. 5 warmachines.
- Max. 9 Power Dice in an army *

*Magic description
You can use a maximum of 9 power dice in each magic phase. Each bound spell you use count as 1 power dice, all following bound spells used in the same turn counts as 2 power dice.

Every ability that grants the bearer complete knowledge of a single lore counts as one power dice in each magic phase.

All dice you would not normally generate, such as Focused Rumination Slann free dice, Skaven warpstones, night goblin mushrooms, power of darkness etc., also count in the total number of dice you can use in a magic phase.

Tomb Kings count each dice they use for a spell as 1 power dice and casket of souls counts as 2 dice total. They can not chose not to use all the dice when casting an incantation, for example a Liche Priest can’t choose only to use 1 dice on a spell. You can how ever choose not to cast a spell with a model. The 2 basic power dice all armies get only counts if they are used to dispel RIP spells with.

Max 10 dispel dice per army. First dispel scroll (and similar working items) you have in your army counts as 1 dispel dice, in EACH magic phase. The second and all other scrolls, counts as 2 dispel dice in each magic phase. So if you have 3 scrolls you can use a maximum of 5 dispel dice each magic phase. Dice from magic resistance does count in this maximum. Being allowed to reroll your dispel dice every turn counts as 1 dispel dice.

Dice removed by the Chaos Dwarf Chalice of Darkness count as dice used. You remove 3 power dice, you can use only 6 more in your magic phase.

Race specific:
DAEMONS OF CHAOS - All Greater Daemons count as an additional hero choice; Herald BSB may take either daemonic gifts or a daemonic icon, not both; Daemonic Gifts may not be duplicated (except for Spellbreakers); Horrors are limited to 0-2.
DARK ELVES -Max. 35 repeater crossbows in the army; Max. 8 shades per unit; Max. 2 flying units or characters; Assassins after the first take a hero choice; Pendant of khaleth takes a hero choice; Ring of hotek takes a hero choice; Max. 1 Large Target; Max. 1 Rare choice
EMPIRE - Steam Tank counts as 2 rare choices; Max. 3 Wizards (Including the Arch Lector)
LIZARDMEN - Characters mounted on Stegadons also use the relevant special or rare slot; Max. 6 Terradons in army (excl. characters); All disciplines taken after the third count as an additional hero slot (Slann BSB counts as 1, Becalming Cogitation as 2 Disciplines); max. 2 Stegadons of any type
ORCS & GOBLINS - Max 6 goblin fanatics.
VAMPIRE COUNTS - The Drakenhoff banner counts as an additional hero choice; The Helm of Command counts as an additional hero choice; Each +1 to cast in the army counts as 1 powerdice in each phase. Max. 5 Cairn Wraiths
WOOD ELVES - Treeman Ancient counts as Treeman. Do not get an extra wood in any scenarios. Instead, after choosing side, and playing capture markers, the wood elf player may move one wood on the table up to 2d6 inches in any direction. This may not bring the wood withing 6 inches of a capture marker or special feature. If it is already within 6 inches of a marker, it may not be moved this way.
SKAVEN: Max. 3 large targets (Hell Pit Abomination and Doomwheel count as 2 each; HPA also counts as 2 rare slots); for each unit of Clanrats/Stormvermin you may have up to 1 unit each of Skavenslaves, Rat Swarms and Giant Rats; Stormbanner is BSB only; Doom Rocket, Poison Wind Mortar, Jezzail units and a Doomweel count as warmachines. Storm Banner er One Use Only!Are there any other restrictions? Because DoW should be doing quite well in this environment, with four cannons, Archwizard, Apprentice and three Dispel Scrolls, not to mention RoR.

Falkman
11-03-2010, 10:19
Well the general restrictions only allow one of each rare choice, so I don't know if you'd be able to take 4 cannons (I don't really know the DoW rules that well).
But DoW are definitely not a bad army with these restrictions.

EarthAndAllStars
11-03-2010, 18:27
This years ETC have the following restrictions...

Why bother with all of these restrictions? The easier thing to do is just have one army list and tell everyone that they can use whatever models they'd like as long as the base size is correct.

Falkman
11-03-2010, 18:33
Why bother with all of these restrictions?
Because the game is unbalanced as hell?

EarthAndAllStars
11-03-2010, 19:19
Because the game is unbalanced as hell?

Which is why there should simply be one list if you are seeking true balance. On this list you'd have categories instead of actual named units: Light Infantry, Heavy Cav, Warmachine, Monster, etc. to choose from. Then the game would come down to battlefield tactics and the luck of the dice, but with the added bonus of not every list being the same as some might favor one type of unit over the other.

Durloth
11-03-2010, 20:15
The signups are full already, with about 15 waiting in reserve.

Oh well. Shuld have known earlier. We`ve had a lot of cancellations, so we have almost 20 free spaces for this week ends tournament using the same rules. It`s just a train trip away... http://www.2d6.no


where 90% of the players bring a max out list and try to bash each other and pretend to be friends...alas we humans are a competative species with an ego as big as our head. Thats whats normal in a tournament.
See my post on the first page.


Are there any other restrictions? Because DoW should be doing quite well in this environment, with four cannons, Archwizard, Apprentice and three Dispel Scrolls, not to mention RoR.

I know one of the more hard core players have dropped his Dark Elves for DoW, with heavy magic, the Fighting Coocks and Mengils. I bet he`ll do alright. I ended up using my Ogres, rather than my DoW, because my DoW army is too small. I only had to paint up another butcher for my Ogres.


Which is why there should simply be one list if you are seeking true balance.

We seek to play Warhammer, just a bit more balanced version of the game...

This comp is not perfect, for sure. But what you guys have to remember is that a lot of people, from many different playing-cultures have given the comp a lot of work, as it`s made by a comittee of some of the best players from every attending country (that BTW AFAIK includes a member from the US team).

Edit: Fixed a quote.

Falkman
12-03-2010, 00:23
Durloth: I don't know if you got my PM, but they've opened up some more spots and at the moment there are three free spots available if you're interested in going.

I'd love to attend your tournament, sadly I have truckloads of schoolwork to do, so I won't be going anywhere for a while :(

ChaosVC
12-03-2010, 00:34
See my post on the first page.


Having being to enough tournys with "well thought out" rules to powerdown powerlist, your first post really isn't something special to be considered, they will always find loop holes to go around the rules and make your games suck.

Durloth
12-03-2010, 17:53
@ChaosVC:
If we have 50 players, maybe ten of them will be of the "hard core" gamers, that travel to tourneys like Gigant Fanatic, ETC and other international happenings. These are the ones with the really, really hard lists and they have a tendency of ending up playing each other in all exept the first battle, due to the Swiss system, that matches players according to their score.
The forty other attendees see tournamets as a great way of meeting new gamers and playing against armies they seldom meet, usually just showing up with the same lists and combos they use for friendly games and after the first battle, this majority will also play against each other due to their skill and power level.

There may of course be differences from country to country, but these are at least my experiences...

Shamutanti
12-03-2010, 17:59
@ChaosVC:

There may of course be differences from country to country, but these are at least my experiences...

Same.

Went to a Doubles Fantasy tournament last weekend.

Out of 20 teams, two were top notch players/tourny goers. Sure there were alot of Dark Elves/Demons/Vamp Counts but most were shock/horror fairly balanced. One of the teams stormed out in a proper hissy fit (actually yelled, screamed, swore, stamped their feet, piled their models away and left.)

Amusingly they were a Demon/Demon combo who had been pasting alot of players.

The winners, oddly, took a Demon/Dwarf combo that beat the ******* snot of people. Got all Massacres and claimed all the potential bonus points. Owie :<

Malorian
12-03-2010, 18:04
This will all obviously be different from place to place and even from tournament to tournament.

Around these parts people shy away from deamons and actually ogre kingdoms and orcs are the most popular armies seen.