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View Full Version : Justification for using "lash" in a World Eaters themed army....



Trench_Raider
10-03-2010, 21:23
Ok, from previous posts here and elsewere most folks know I really have a problem with the use of opposing Chaos powers in the same army for traional and fluff reasons. The sight of Khorne Berserkers with a lash prince in the same army (or worse yet nurgle and tzench daemons in the same force) makes me want to claw my eyes out. I don't want to re-hash that argument here. But my stance on the issue helps to frame were I'm coming from.

Yesterday I pulled out the raw material I have gathered for an old style World Eaters themed CSM army and started the planning. It's to be a colorful force with lots of old school flavor. The majority of the army is of course Khorne Beserker squads made up of Khorne marked RT chaos renegades, "1992 pattern World Eaters", and second edition models. I've got a lord on a first pattern juggernaught and a "blood slaughterer" that I plan on using as a "counts as" drednaught as well. (http://www.solegends.com/citcat9x3/c92402chaosspacemarines-01.htm) It's going to be a fun project to put together.

Well, I was thinking over unique HQ options, when I thought about the sorceror. True enough you would never see a sorceror in a World Eaters army. Khorne hates "magic" and all the librarians of the World Eater legion were killed when they turned to Chaos. This is even more the case with a Slaanesh marked character using the "lash" power. But though the magic of "counts as" I have come up with a suitably old school solution.

He's not a sorceror at all and he's not using a psycic attack. It's a World Eater legion techmarine armed with a graviton gun! :thumbsup:
For those younger gamers out there the graviton gun is a weapon from the first edition of the game that also briefly made a showing in 2nd editon as well. Even in those days it was harldy ever used by anyone. Here is the description of the weapon from the RT book:
"The graviton gun is a curious weapon. It was oiginally developed for peaceful purposes in low gravity enviorments. Any target hit by the gun acquires added mass-becoming much heavier almost instantly. This does not physically change or harm the target but it does make movement difficult..."

Granted the effect of the lash is not in keeping with the original effect of the graviton gun, but one could certainly make the case that a modified/updated version of the gun might alter the gravity effect in the opposite way in lowering the target's mass combined with a sort of tractor beam effect. Yes it's a stretch, but it's a fairly characterful way to shoehorn in the character and is certainly more creative than just combining chaos powers in a "mix and pick" fashion with no regards to theme, tradition, or fluff.

I've even got a conversion idea in mind, using an old RT techmarine as the base model.

What are your thoughts on this?

TR

Lord of Worms
10-03-2010, 21:31
I would let it slide....barely. ;)

wazatdingder
10-03-2010, 21:36
Because it's not a deamon prince and you seem to have the models to make it work ok... But Khorne may not be pleased, I hope that is a second HQ and a Khorne badass it the first.

shabbadoo
10-03-2010, 21:37
I think you've hit on about the best justification for taking a "Slaaneshi Sorcerer" in a Khornate army that anyone is likely to come up with. I really don't care what opponents bring to the table anyways so long as it is obvious what it is and what is does. Good use of "counts as" so far as I am concerned.

Also, what wazzatdingder said too. You should have a Khornate Chaos Lord in the list too as the actual leader.

innerwolf
10-03-2010, 21:45
Make a suitable model and it's mighty fine.

Lord Inquisitor
10-03-2010, 21:48
I've seen a WFB Khorne army that needed a scroll caddy for magic defence and put in a "slave sorcerer" in chains and stocks. Something similar - a Khorne Lord with a broken Slaanesh sorcerer under one arm could be rather amusing. Or perhaps just the head, like the medusa's head, has the power...

However, I suspect the graviton gun is perhaps the best justification. Get over here!

librerian_samae
10-03-2010, 21:49
That idea is freaking awesome, I love good solid counts as to make things old school and fluffy and this idea (with a decent model) gets a huge double thumbs up and nice guy pose from me.

Griffindale
11-03-2010, 00:58
I would say ok, roll my eyes, and play you. Its just kind of funny. I guess you did make up a successful reason for it. I would HOPE that the gun would look cool though.

It may just be the Clash of the Titans movie coming out, but I really like the idea of the "Medusa head effect". Some powerful WE chamipon has triumphed over foul magic and turned their power into his own. Sounds very cool.

Victomorga
11-03-2010, 01:12
Ok, from previous posts here and elsewere most folks know I really have a problem with the use of opposing Chaos powers in the same army for traional and fluff reasons. The sight of Khorne Berserkers with a lash prince in the same army (or worse yet nurgle and tzench daemons in the same force) makes me want to claw my eyes out.

What are your thoughts on this?

TR

it's going to be tough painting that army if you're going to be fighting the urge to claw your eyes out every time you look at it.

"a rose by any other name..."

it's still a lash whip in a khorne army. I don't have a problem with it because it isn't breaking any rules, but as far as I can tell the only difference between you and the people you seem so irritated by is some manufactured backstory that you feel translates to a moral high ground. again, the codex says it's okay so it's okay, but I don't see how you can roll your eyes at another player who might have the exact same army list as you but hasn't felt the need to justify their decision.

pom134
11-03-2010, 01:27
Make it a salvaged Magna-grapple that he modified to fire a net instead of the armor piercing tip! That will explain the pinning too!

Mannimarco
11-03-2010, 01:45
the whole point of trying to justify it is so people out there will acknowledge it due to the story you created for it and not because your using a power build (1 lash isnt even a power build even)

BTW lash whips are for the nids, not chaos

3 0f 6
11-03-2010, 07:17
It is in the Codex so it is fine. Of course, I like your justification for it, shows you are a long term player (and purist at heart). Like for example, my Chaos army is painted as an iron warrior legion, yet now it consists of noise marines (yep, iron warrior colours, pretty pink sonic weapons) and plague marines (painted up as rotting iron warriors) and now 2 prince options, one of which is a inquisitor model armed with a gunblade (which counts as an empty hand I guess).

The Clairvoyant
11-03-2010, 07:30
I love that idea :)

However, i have to disagree with you on the common usage of it in 2nd ed.
Among my gaming friends, we banned the use of it!
A vortex grenade was 50pts, one shot. A graviton gun was 40pts and can be used every turn.
Ok it doesn't kill the enemy but it takes them out of the game. Bloodthirster just been summoned nearby? - drive over on your bike and give it a zap. 2+ to hit and it can't move for the rest of the game

DeeKay
11-03-2010, 09:04
Here's another idea.

Rename the psychic ability to something like Slaughterhouse, and simply say that the power herds the enemies together to make the killing that little more expedient.

Rules-wise, it can be done and you can make up your own fluff so I can't see any problem with it.

With regards,
Dan.

BrotherOfBrass
11-03-2010, 09:12
It's ok by the rules, you've come up with a reason that satisfies your personal fluff criteria, so go for it! If Khorne disapproves, the dice will let you know...

Worsle
11-03-2010, 09:30
Do what you want that is what I think. Worry to much about some one not liking it and you wont do anything, as there is always som one who does not like something. However if you are taking lash for it is effectiveness why? Lash is not that good, best hq chaos have is a nurgle warptime prince or failing that kharn stands up fairly well.

Really if you can make a good conversion and it is clear enough what it is meant to be then go knock yourself out.

Brother Loki
11-03-2010, 09:40
I think it's a great idea, but you need to make the techmarine look like a blood spattered Gordon Freeman.

Corpse
11-03-2010, 11:06
One buddy uses a blood lash sorcerer, who takes joy in making things bleed.

Another prefers to go with the two princes with a bunch of nurgles, and says that if it ain't broke, break it. As in, that's the spirit of chaos.

Lots of colorful responses. I don't care either way anymore what people mix when I go against them. Just what I play. If your cool with justifying whatever you want in fluff to yourself, then that's good for you. I enjoy making up my own fluff, building models that barely resemble the codex stuff and seemingly have my own legions.. My own broods, hordes etc.. All endless, nobody matters not even the HQ's. No "I want attention" cinematic heroes in my forces. Everything dies, and moves along.

Killgore
11-03-2010, 11:11
Lash in a Khorne army- my justification if i was to do this

The enemy are overwhelmed by the corrupting influence of Khorne emanating from the Daemon prince/ sorcerer. And thus in their blood crazed confusion they wonder around in perfect circles waiting for plasma cannon death lol

after all, Khorne does not care who’s blood flows

malisteen
11-03-2010, 13:26
I wouldn't, myself. Part of picking your theme is not using options that don't fit your theme. I wouldn't complain or roll my eyes if an opponent did, though.

totgeboren
11-03-2010, 13:38
I would play you, but in a way I feel you are using "count as" the wrong way.
Instead of you having a sweet model that you try and find some rules for, you want some rules (that many people hate playing against) in your army that goes against the theme of your army.

I would rather face a "Blood Priest", that spread the rage of Khorne to all. His unholy influence can make your enemies become filled with mad bloodlust, fighting themselves (bunching up) in their madness, or go charging straight into your lines (move em out of cover towards your berserkers).

I use my Techmarines as obliterators. :P

Fixer
11-03-2010, 13:55
Why can't people just admit they are powergaming and move on with their lives?
You don't need to put together a huge thread and ask for input to convince yourself it's okay.

"Despite the fact that using it goes against pretty much everything devout followers of Khorne would do, I want to use Lash of submission sorcerer in my World Eaters army because it makes my list far more powerful."

It's okay because it's legal so in a tournament it wouldn't matter! Also from the sounds of your list you're not powergaming so it's fine for friendly play unless you're specifically going with a group or campaign that stipulates you have to stick to you army background.

WYSIWYG/Modelling issues are moot after the actual reason for you taking it. This whole thread reminds me too much of that Iron Warriors plague followed by the quick repainting of demon princes pink by those supposed 'IW Fluff lovers' when the new dex hit.

Worst offender here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116582

Killgore
11-03-2010, 14:12
Why can't people just admit they are powergaming and move on with their lives?
You don't need to put together a huge thread and ask for input to convince yourself it's okay.



Get off your high horse

Lash is a valid codex option, a single World Eaters techmarine with a 'counts as sorcerer lash attack' is exactly the type of inventive list building the Chaos codex designers were probably aiming for when they designed the book.

Its a interesting idea, the model will probably look great, only issue most people have is the fact that it requires a mark of slannesh? well guess what, cult armies died last edition, so get over it. Id rather use different marks in the chaos codex for a legion force to differentiate specialist troops/ characters then be stuck using one mark.

Plus Id much rather fight a Khorne 'lash whip' techmarine HQ then a Vulkan or Shrike in a Ultramarines army.

Lord Inquisitor
11-03-2010, 14:26
Why can't people just admit they are powergaming and move on with their lives?
You don't need to put together a huge thread and ask for input to convince yourself it's okay.
Well it's perfectly reasonable to want to make a competitive army and a themed one. I play in tournaments and a themed army looks better, is more fun to play with and tends to score well for painting! And I feel that there is something to be said for not just bunging a Slaanesh sorcerer into a Khorne army and making an effort to make it more "fluffy", if only in the interest of making a good looking army.

Personally, I really do use the fluffy choices for my army, but then with Emperor's Children the Lash is appropriate! :cheese:

Fixer
11-03-2010, 14:41
Get off your high horse

How about reading my post? I said it was okay.
Thank you for another Warseer achievement in ignorance.

Seriously though 'intended inventive list building'? 95% of all Chaos Armies using Lash of submission is not particularly inventive no matter what colour you paint the miniature. If anything the new Chaos Dex was written with the express intention of removing all the balance issues with rules oversights from too many options or 1 dimensional power builds. (they still failed)


Plus I’d much rather fight a Khorne 'lash whip' techmarine HQ then a Vulkan or Shrike in a Ultramarines army.

Ahh, so it's not anything to do with actual fluff/balance . Just hating space marines :rolleyes:



I've got nothing against people playing the game however they want. I just get annoyed by people saying they're doing something for fluff reasons when they're obviously not. At least be honest to yourselves!

Hell, not like you're going to see a thread from someone asking if it's possible to justify an on-foot khorne lord with blood feeder leading an army made up of unmechanised Slaaneshi Noise marines, bikes, and spawn.

Earthbeard
11-03-2010, 17:04
I'm pretty much with Totgeboren and Fixer on this.

Personally play with what you want, makes no difference to me, but as fixer says, you often find "count-as" is done most of the time for the more powerful elements in a list, than the weaker ones, often with obfuscating reasons behind it, rather than just saying screw it, I want the "power" stuff.

Gustovic
12-03-2010, 16:49
None. This is one of the non BG lists

Mannimarco
12-03-2010, 17:01
Ahh, so it's not anything to do with actual fluff/balance . Just hating space marines :rolleyes:


I think his point is he's more likely to find a techmarine with a graviton weapon in the world eaters than he is to find sombody with the same skills as vulkan/shrike in the ultramarines

"counts as" helps and yes its what people use to justify taking these characters in non chapter but isnt it wierd how every chapter seems to have a vulkan clone running around in it?

heck the amount of vulkan models leading every chapter out ther leads me to belive the raven guard were right, yeah they might have botched it up and made a bunch of mutants but if only they had stuck at it they too could have had a whole army of vulkans

sliganian
12-03-2010, 17:07
I think his point is he's more likely to find a techmarine with a graviton weapon in the world eaters than he is to find sombody with the same skills as vulkan/shrike in the ultramarines

"counts as" helps and yes its what people use to justify taking these characters in non chapter but isnt it wierd how every chapter seems to have a vulkan clone running around in it?

heck the amount of vulkan models leading every chapter out ther leads me to belive the raven guard were right, yeah they might have botched it up and made a bunch of mutants but if only they had stuck at it they too could have had a whole army of vulkans

hehe. The funny part is that I've ran a Salamanders army for about 5 years or so and do not have Vulkan in it.

Why? Because I already had a 'leader' for my force (with ThunderHammer and combi-melta) and I don't need to bolt-on some special character to make my force themed.

Plus I find it politically awkward that the only 'black' Marine is: "Vulkan He's Tan". :angel:

Of course, the Salamanders' colour scheme is also the same as the Jamaican flag so maybe there is something in that...

MadHatter
12-03-2010, 17:59
while i will not say no to your theme. I do find it funny that you basically did the thing you complained about. but I don't have an issue with it. Infact i thought it was creative.

Grax
12-03-2010, 19:59
Here's another idea: never, ever use Lash again.

You might not win as many games, but trust me, you'll have a lot more friends. ^_^

Mannimarco
12-03-2010, 20:12
I'll see your "never use lash again" and raise you a "never use stormshield termys ever again and never use nob bikers ever again and never use a biker seer council ever again and dont even think of using mephiston"

come to think of it lash isnt that bad after all when you consider what came after it

jsullivanlaw
12-03-2010, 21:12
Your justification is that Chaos Marines, even World Eaters, don't like losing.

ObiWan
12-03-2010, 21:20
Your idea sounds quite good, but if you are such a purist, you shouldn't use it at all.

Lord Asgul
12-03-2010, 23:44
I feel strange for having such a large army with 7 sorcerors and NONE of them have lash of submission or are slaaneshi

Chem-Dog
13-03-2010, 02:33
This just slides...Personally I'd have said the Lash is infact a dire insult issued by the Obviously not Slaaneshi Obviously not Sorceror Khorne Champion that enrages it's target so much they run directly towards him in order to punch him the hell out, it's the sort of thing Khorne would do, the scamp!

SandQueen
13-03-2010, 02:47
This just slides...Personally I'd have said the Lash is infact a dire insult issued by the Obviously not Slaaneshi Obviously not Sorceror Khorne Champion that enrages it's target so much they run directly towards him in order to punch him the hell out, it's the sort of thing Khorne would do, the scamp!

Probably something about the Target's mother/norn queen/ primarch.

Champion: "I may be a despicable soldier of darkness but at least my primarch didnt get POISONED"
Marneus Calgar: "ITS ON NOW!"

Lord of Worms
13-03-2010, 09:23
This just slides...Personally I'd have said the Lash is infact a dire insult issued by the Obviously not Slaaneshi Obviously not Sorceror Khorne Champion that enrages it's target so much they run directly towards him in order to punch him the hell out, it's the sort of thing Khorne would do, the scamp!

Model a SM version of Fred from Youtube with a megaphone.
Or Lars Ulrich
:)

Lothlanathorian
13-03-2010, 11:04
I wouldn't be opposed to it for one reason and one reason alone: Khornate Techpriest. Look at my custom title. Go ahead. Look. That's right. I support this endeavor. I even once bought all the bits to convert my own Berzerker Techpriest back when Chaos 3.5 came out just because I thought it would be funny. Never put it together, though. :(

IAMNOTHERE
13-03-2010, 11:17
I don't think any slaneshy stuff would fit a WE themed army. It's just wrong.

A non WE lthemed force is fair game though.

IIRC a standard tourny build is 2Lash prince, 2 squads of plague marines, 2 squads of Zerkers and some oblits.

I see no real difference here.

Logarithm Udgaur
13-03-2010, 11:24
Why can't people just admit they are powergaming and move on with their lives?


This. If you want to play it, the codex allows it and that is fine. Just do not expect me not to give you grief for it if we happen to play each other.



Plus I’d much rather fight a Khorne 'lash whip' techmarine HQ then a Vulkan or Shrike in a Ultramarines army.
Care to explain this? It is fairly well the same thing that the OP was talking about, shoehorning something that does not fit the army fluff in order to get the rules you want.