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vinny t
11-03-2010, 03:09
So, I have been puzzling over which army to play next, and while thinking of possible themes to do, I have found one theme that I think is really awesome, namely... Lawrence of Arabia. Maybe it's because I'm taking Arabic, or maybe it's my love of the Tomb King's (which I already play) fluff, but the idea of lightly armored, horseback mounted raiders really seems like it would be awesome to see on the table. I already have conversion ideas for the thowb (robes commonly worn by gulf Arabs), but I don't know which army best represents Lawrence's raiders. Help please! :)

Dr.Mercury
11-03-2010, 03:21
I think wood elves would probably be a good fit.
With core missile fast cav, a guerrilla warfare type feel, and shooty characters, I think Lawrence of Arabia would work well

Dantès
11-03-2010, 03:45
I think wood elves would probably be a good fit.
With core missile fast cav, a guerrilla warfare type feel, and shooty characters, I think Lawrence of Arabia would work well

This is a good idea, but I feel like Empire might be a better bet. Handgunners for troops and outriders for special would fit the theme best

Braden Campbell
11-03-2010, 03:54
Dogs of War... with lots of Fast Cavalry (Core choice for them). Be sure to include Al Muktar's Desert Dogs.

The Red Scourge
11-03-2010, 06:15
I'd go with the DoW too. Woodies would be more of 1001 Nights thing with their forest spirits, and elves are a bit too elite :)

Leogun_91
11-03-2010, 07:14
Defenetively DoW.

Condottiere
11-03-2010, 09:06
We're pretty generic; you can add in a Kislev contingent for good measure.

Odin
11-03-2010, 11:38
Dogs of War... with lots of Fast Cavalry (Core choice for them). Be sure to include Al Muktar's Desert Dogs.

Indeed - Al Muktar's Desert Dogs basically are Lawrence and Faisal.

vinny t
11-03-2010, 12:06
If I go Dogs of War, what models should I use? Are there official Dogs of War models? Can the Desert Dogs be included in any other army?

Odin
11-03-2010, 12:12
If I go Dogs of War, what models should I use? Are there official Dogs of War models? Can the Desert Dogs be included in any other army?

Well, I think the DoW aren't official any more - but so long as your opponents aredecent enough it shouldn't be a problem.

Not sure if the Desert Dogs are still available, might need to seek them out on eBay, but they are ideal. You'd just want an army based almost entirely on light cavalry with bows.

Alternatively I guess you could use empire and have lots of pistoliers and outriders.

Condottiere
11-03-2010, 12:16
There are official DoW models, which I'm fairly sure are now out of production.

Speaking loosely, any around 28mm scale model that will more or less logically represent the specific unit type you have in your list.

Desert Dogs are Core in DoW, and rare in any other army, except TK, IIRC.

Dantès
11-03-2010, 16:17
Not sure if the Desert Dogs are still available, might need to seek them out on eBay, but they are ideal. You'd just want an army based almost entirely on light cavalry with bows.

Alternatively I guess you could use empire and have lots of pistoliers and outriders.

I don't think they had bows...I'm pretty sure they all had guns by that time. That's why I was suggesting Empire.

You could run handgunners as core, pistoliers/outriders as special, and Al Muktar's Desert Dogs as rare...

N810
11-03-2010, 16:26
Some Desert Night Goblins Could make for some great conversions. :D

Odin
11-03-2010, 18:13
I don't think they had bows...I'm pretty sure they all had guns by that time. That's why I was suggesting Empire.

You could run handgunners as core, pistoliers/outriders as special, and Al Muktar's Desert Dogs as rare...

Yes, Lawrence did of course. I just meant that the Desert Dogs are basically Lawrence and the bedouin but within the WHFB setting.

mrtn
11-03-2010, 18:38
I don't think they had bows...I'm pretty sure they all had guns by that time. That's why I was suggesting Empire.

You could run handgunners as core, pistoliers/outriders as special, and Al Muktar's Desert Dogs as rare...

I really really hope that the thread starter don't want an army based on the first world war, if he do he should start a rough rider 40k army instead. I'd certainly refuse to play anyone with repeater rifles in WFB.

Condottiere
11-03-2010, 20:07
It's hard to proxy Empire for Bedouins, the Empire tactical set up is too rigid.

BigbyWolf
11-03-2010, 20:44
Vinny T- if you're interested, the Desert Dogs (or some of them) are up on ebay at the moement...http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/warhammer-dogs-of-war-5x-al-makthoums-desert-dogs-ogre_W0QQitemZ270540104998QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_To ys_Wargames_RL?hash=item3efd726526 (UK site)

Dantès
11-03-2010, 20:55
I really really hope that the thread starter don't want an army based on the first world war, if he do he should start a rough rider 40k army instead. I'd certainly refuse to play anyone with repeater rifles in WFB.

When I said 'they' I meant the Bedouins. I don't think this army would be that hard. It's a glass cannon. Once you get across the table, they're done.

And the Empire setup isn't too rigid. It's actually quite flexible. Just depends how you play it.

Aflo
11-03-2010, 21:14
It's hard to proxy Empire for Bedouins, the Empire tactical set up is too rigid.


Huh?


Pistoliers and outriders with hunters and spearman core?

Midloo
11-03-2010, 21:39
If you wanted to proxy with some other company's models, there should be plenty of 25-28mm historicals available. (no GW tournies, but you save money and get a more varied force of fighters on horseback)

Also - Harad Raiders would work form the LotR line (yes I know licensing issues hurt you at tournaments as well)

vinny t
11-03-2010, 23:39
-mrtn, why do you hate repeating rifles? They certainly arent the best item the empire has.
-Midloo, why would the licensing issues hurt me at tourneys? aren't they all GW figures? And if I kitbashed a few so they would have handgunner rifles would it still be an issue?

It seems as though empire is the best match. Not because I hate DoW, but because Empire seems like a more competitive build, and while I want the army to look and play similar to the Bedouin's tactics, it would be nice to win once in a while. :)

mrtn
12-03-2010, 11:57
-mrtn, why do you hate repeating rifles? They certainly arent the best item the empire has.I certainly hope they don't have it at all. I can't find them in the armybook at least.
The Empire is the most scientifically advanced part of the warhammer world and they use 17th century technology. Araby is quite a bit behind. If you want to make an Arabyan army sporting 20th century technology you show a blatant disregard for the background.

vinny t
12-03-2010, 12:04
The outriders sport something like "repeater handguns". they shoot 3 shots instead of one. Lawrence's army used many captured light machine guns, so they would be ok for me to use, according to my theme.

Fabius Style
12-03-2010, 12:09
Well the only DOW available now on the GW online store are under the "misc" category. The only cavalry are Voland's Venators. Only pikemen and crossbows. Hopefully you can get your hand's on Al Muktar. The Paymaster Sheik could probably find his way into your army too!

mrtn
12-03-2010, 12:26
The outriders sport something like "repeater handguns". they shoot 3 shots instead of one. Lawrence's army used many captured light machine guns, so they would be ok for me to use, according to my theme.

Those are three pistols welded together (more or less) and are not even rifled. They're not even in the same ballpark as a machine gun. They probably couldn't even hit a ballpark when aimed.

It's like using an Apache helicopter in a dwarf army "because it fits my theme". :wtf:

Sure, it's your army, you do what you want, but I still wouldn't play you. :)

Condottiere
12-03-2010, 13:36
Theming devolves into two aspects:

1. Appropriateness to the setting

What's the tech level of the tribes you're using and that of their opponents, in relation to the Arabs and Turks of WWI? If they have bows, you should have bows.

2. Visualization of the theme

This one is tougher for this specific case, as not that many Arab themed miniatures exist in GW, though I wonder if some conversions from 40K are possible?

Dantès
12-03-2010, 14:59
Those are three pistols welded together (more or less) and are not even rifled. They're not even in the same ballpark as a machine gun. They probably couldn't even hit a ballpark when aimed.

It's like using an Apache helicopter in a dwarf army "because it fits my theme". :wtf:

Sure, it's your army, you do what you want, but I still wouldn't play you. :)

I really don't understand why you're complaining...because his theme doesn't fit into the warhammer world? Because Outriders with repeater handguns (which aren't pistols, they're rifles) don't fit into an araby themed list?

He's theming it around Lawrence of Arabia, not Araby in the Warhammer world. So in that context, it fits perfectly.

Also, there an extremely easy way to rationalize it...an Empire noble with more money than he knows what to do with, takes interest in a state in Araby that is fighting for it's independence. He buys a bunch of handguns, pistols, helblasters, and takes them with him to Araby, a la Lord Byron.

There you go, fluffy explanation.

And if you are not willing to play someone because their army is not perfectly themed...I'm pretty sure he won't be missing out on anything :)

mrtn
12-03-2010, 15:16
I really don't understand why you're complaining...because his theme doesn't fit into the warhammer world? Because Outriders with repeater handguns (which aren't pistols, they're rifles) don't fit into an araby themed list?

Both. And especially that he tries to fit (to use the word loosely) 20th century technology into a medieval/early modern context. Warhammer is a game of knights and wizards, not about guerillas cutting railroads and running around with field artillery borrowed from the British.

BTW, can you get a source for the rifling of the repeater handguns? I can't find any in the Empire armybook at least.

Dantès
12-03-2010, 15:22
Both. And especially that he tries to fit (to use the word loosely) 20th century technology into a medieval/early modern context. Warhammer is a game of knights and wizards, not about guerillas cutting railroads and running around with field artillery borrowed from the British.

BTW, can you get a source for the rifling of the repeater handguns? I can't find any in the Empire armybook at least.

Hahah whoa there...it's not like he's taking stuff that has never been in Warhammer before, and adding it for his own pleasure. He's taking something that ALREADY EXISTS in the form of the Empire army, and using it to REPRESENT another army. There is nothing wrong with this, and it is actually ENCOURAGED.

I'd love to find you a scholarly source on the rifling of repeater handguns...except...I don't think there are any. However, this isn't the point. The point is, this is a game of, like you said, knights and WIZARDS, so why are you complaining about something as trivial as the rifling of a barrel?

mrtn
12-03-2010, 20:39
If you use the empire rules to represent desert raiders with 17th century technology, or earlier, then I'm all for it. If you take them to represent machine guns then you're in the wrong game. It's jarring and goes against all descriptions of the world. Rifling of guns is only trivial if you already have it, if you don't it's a huge improvement. And it became common in the 18th century.
I hate historical anachronisms, and I don't approve of people turning my medieval game into world war 1.

vinny t
12-03-2010, 21:37
Well, a machine gun would be the helblaster, and that is easily modelled as a gatling gun of the time. Turning your game into WW1 would be more easily accomplished by just taking lines of handgunners and cannons and mortars and helblasters. The rifling doesn't even matter, because there aren't special rules representing rifling in the game. Also, I would be using empire rules to represent Lawrence's army due to their fast shooting cav. Those are ALREADY IN THE GAME. I'm simply using the same rules as those already in place to represent the army of my era.

eron12
13-03-2010, 04:48
If you use the empire rules to represent desert raiders with 17th century technology, or earlier, then I'm all for it.

I hate historical anachronisms, and I don't approve of people turning my medieval game into world war 1.

I guess you don't approve of Games Workship then, since the 17th century is beyond the Medieval period.

Condottiere
13-03-2010, 11:58
I'd say the upper limit would be the English Civil War, which for that setting should be the equivalent of the current US military.

rodmillard
13-03-2010, 21:22
I'd say the upper limit would be the English Civil War, which for that setting should be the equivalent of the current US military.

Yep, I'd say 100 english conscripts with pikes and muskets could take on an equal number of septics with 21st century weapons.;)

Or wasn't that what you meant?

Condottiere
13-03-2010, 21:29
I think that Cromwell's New Model Army sets the standard.

vinny t
13-03-2010, 23:16
Soo, empire or Dogs of War for the army?

Condottiere
14-03-2010, 00:00
I don't like recommending a faction that has no current or foreseeable support from GW, but DoW does allow you to tweak it's units to some facsimile of the army you're looking for.

scipunk
14-03-2010, 00:37
I say go Empire. It fits your fluff of Lawrence of Arabia.

As people have mentioned if your able to get a hold of Al Muktar's Desert Dogs and do a little conversion here and there that would be an added bonus to your army. Even the Ogre Araby maneaters would be great if they can be fielded (Can they?)

And if one has to nit pick you about the validity of the fluff and doesn't want to play you than that's their loss. Make sure you create a WIP thread once you have established the base of the army.

Hope to see it materialize

mrtn
14-03-2010, 03:07
I guess you don't approve of Games Workship then, since the 17th century is beyond the Medieval period.

Welcome to Warseer!

The troll pens are out behind the Smart Ass Tavern on Content Street.

eron12
14-03-2010, 05:13
Welcome to Warseer!

The troll pens are out behind the Smart Ass Tavern on Content Street.

Awww, someone's a poor sport. It's not my fault you made contradictory statements for everyone to see.

Condottiere
14-03-2010, 05:47
If you want to get relatively efficient light cavalry with a good BS, then Kislev is worth looking at, to take a contingent from them with your primary force.

vinny t
14-03-2010, 15:57
Can you still use Kislev?

Condottiere
14-03-2010, 16:20
Yes, the PDF is floating around the webs. Or the hard copy is in one of the Chronicles.

scipunk
14-03-2010, 18:16
Can you still use Kislev?

You can, but not sure if it is tournament legal any more, but if you don't care much for tournaments, the Kislev list would be a nice twist to your army

eron12
14-03-2010, 22:32
Miniatures might be a bit of an issue for Kislev though.

vinny t
15-03-2010, 02:58
So, DoW with a kislev contigent?
I would like for the army to be tournament legal, though.
Does anyone have any hard evidence that you can't use DoW or Kislev?

Freman Bloodglaive
15-03-2010, 07:17
I would say stick with Empire. They're not a perfect correlation, but they offer a playable army list, whilst with DoW you're using a 6th edition list (still legal, but some elements are overpriced compared to 7th).

You can make knights (using Bretonnian horses rather than the armoured type) and sculpt them with shrouding robes as well.

Al Muktars are fluffy as hell, but they're not a good unit. Even DoW players don't field them. They're a fast cavalry unit with no ranged weapons, and no combat weapons except for a magic sword on the second character (in a unit of five you have three special characters, Al Muktar, Sheik Shufti, and Ibn the blind beggar who, because he's a character, can be picked out of the unit and cut down making the +D3 combat resolution banner worthless). The unit also costs 245 points. DoW Light Cavalry with spear, bow and shield cost 18 points each, so that's almost enough for 3 units of 5 models (270 points, 315 with musicians).

In other words Al Muktar's are cool but pretty useless, and that's in a list that suffers from CbPU syndrome.

Condottiere
15-03-2010, 09:39
As I advise anyway who asks, send a query to the tournament organizers beforehand, asking if DoW armies are permitted and if there are any restrictions.

rodmillard
15-03-2010, 20:59
My own araby project (more arabian nights than Lawrence) uses the empire list with a couple of regiments of renown in rare: Al Muktar's and the Birdmen of Catrazza (represented by flying carpet riders)

I don't take this army on the tournament circuit, but I haven't had any problems with pick-up-and-play games in store, although I always take a second print out of the RoR PDF so that my opponent can refer to the rules throughout the battle.