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Souleater
11-03-2010, 10:38
So apart from BT, GK are the only loyalist chapter with an existing codex that haven't been re-done.

Orginally they were the fighting arm of the Ordo Mallaeus. And while GW have said they maybe when OTT with the =I= theme for DH/WH I would like to see this historical link maintained.

I'd like to see GK get two lists in the one codex. One a general purpose take on all-comers list - different to other marines and maybe with more psychics or anti-psychics. I'd like to see the DH guard dropped as they don't really fit the background other than as expendable cannonfodder.

The other an anti-daemon list specifically for GK vs CD fights - this could provide different gear for the GK, plus rules for Chaos Daemons and some scenarios for the two sides - after all I think these two forces shouldn't just be doing the run of the mill stand-up fights against each other.

I also wonder just how they will compare to SW, BA, etc in terms of power. They are described as being the best of the space marine chapters. They should to my mind be even more 'elite' in terms of power and low numbers but at what point would they become unplayable?

What would you like to see for GK?

Putty
11-03-2010, 10:49
GK?

They will be assimilated into the next IG codex, co written by Robin Cruddace & Phil Kelly!

Along with SoB to be a single 400 page codex.

:p

Lord of Worms
11-03-2010, 10:54
What would you like to see for GK?

I would like to see them done well in a post-reboot version of 40k with writers that realize non-monstous creatures should not have S/T 6.:rolleyes:

Can you imagine what depths of OTT stupidity it would go to in the current incarnation of 40k? No thanks, I value my sanity.

Promethius
11-03-2010, 11:04
I'm almost certainly in a minority, but I'd like to see sob as a stand alone ecclesiarchy army and grey knights as a dominant part of an inquisition book. Instead of codex:grey knights, it'd be more codex: forces of the inquisition. You'd have inquisitors, inquistorial stormtroopers, grey knights with a couple of extra units options and deathwatch kill teams. It would allow for grey knight only forces, but would also let you represent more of an inquisition strike force with, say, deathwatch units making up for defects in the grey knight list. The deathwatch could be more heavy support orientated, the grey knights more fast attack. I just think it would be a good opportunity to bring the deathwatch into the equation without a separate book, and would curtail the need to dream up a load of gk units to cover the obvious holes in the book.

mughi3
11-03-2010, 11:21
I would not mind a combined dex, i like both SOB and GKs, however i like GKs more.

Right now they are hard to play because they suffer from being to expensive for thier performance. This is understandable given they are several editions out of date. They really need more of their own ranged AT firepower, and more bang for the buck. FW brought them forward a little with an incinerator/psycannon armed GK reedeemer. hopefully thats the first step forward.

Souleater
11-03-2010, 11:23
I agree totally, Pormethius. I would be very happy with what you suggest.

I don't think DW would make a good standalone army for fluff or gaming reasons but they could fit in very well as support units as you suggest. But I like the idea of weird and odd Inquisition units.

It would be cool if Sisters when back to being Ecclesiarch troops. I think the popularity of Sisters surprised GW - the Codex itself said they weren't intended to be a standalone army.

Lord Khabal
11-03-2010, 11:28
Indeed. there should be a codex: Inquisition, featuring both grey knights and sisters, since there are multiple choices that are common.

The sisters bring the versatility, grey knights the muscle and stormtroopers the cannon fodder.

And screw the alliance bit... Pure inquisition only!!! No SM or IG.

mughi3
11-03-2010, 11:30
No i think the allies rules make sense. they go where they are needed and will work with other imperial factions when the need arises.

KingDeath
11-03-2010, 11:34
I too would prefer to keep the Grey Knights as a part of the Inquisition.
A standalone codex would probably make them too similar to normal spacemarines, with predators, devs, Chaplains and all that stuff, just in order to create some variety. A Daemon Hunters Codex on the other side would allow it's players to field, if it is well done, various different kinds of armies.
From a pure GK force to the entourage of a radical Inquisitor ( including daemonhosts... :D ) many things would be possible.

,

Lord Khabal
11-03-2010, 11:34
So do space marines and imperial guard... Anyway, thats not up to us is it?

Lord of Worms
11-03-2010, 11:37
So do space marines and imperial guard... Anyway, thats not up to us is it?

Allies is a game mechanic that still lingers from back when 40k was a good game. If they can't make it work without upsetting game balance or whatever people are crying about, maybe they need to re-evaluate who they hire to write codexes.

Ironhand
11-03-2010, 11:43
Here's my guess, based on statements by Jervis and the current design philosophy at GW:

The new GK (and SoB) Codexes will focus on the armies, with a minimal Inquisition presence. Allies will be limited to Apocalypse games, and inducted units will either be removed (most likely) or the complete entry will appear in the GK/SoB Codex.

Both armies will receive some new special characters, GK will certainly receive new units to fill out the force organization chart, and weapon and vehicle stats will be updated to match Codex:SM. GK will certainly retain their daemon fighting abilities (psycannons, blessed promethium, force weapons, and so on).

Bassik
11-03-2010, 11:51
The sisters of battle are apealing in a way few did forsee. They represent strong female characters, not the evil-but-sexy or the sweet-innocent-but-powerfull that are such a staple in sci-fi and fantasy, but instead made them ugly, battlescarred, and fully devoted to their duty.
Especially the female audience apriciates this deviation from the norm, but I am sure there are plenty of males like me that got enough from the sexist ways women are portrayed in these types of settings.

I think GW should exploit this character trait a bit more, and a good start would be to take a good look at the lead females in both Aliens and Terminator 2.

Bassik.

Lord of Worms
11-03-2010, 11:54
I think GW should exploit this character trait a bit more, and a good start would be to take a good look at the lead females in both Aliens and Terminator 2.


No. Every time GW decides to "exploit" some aspect of their IP, they overdo it, thereby cheapening it and making it trite. They will lose nearly all of their appeal if GW tries to do what you suggest.

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
11-03-2010, 12:52
GK will certainly retain their daemon fighting abilities (psycannons, blessed promethium, force weapons, and so on).
I hope so, since it's this Chapter only purpose!

I hope and wish an new, single "Codex: Inquisition", featuring GK, Deatwatch, SoB. That would be enough, and may contains the following choices:

Ordo Malleus:
Back to "Chapter Approved" (2001?): GK = Terminators only. Can only fight Chaos.
Troops, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support (except Land Raiders) choices filled with Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. May be led by Ordo Malleus Inquisitors.

Ordo Xenos:
Deathwatch: use the SM codex, with special gear, weaponry and tactics. They are Elite SM. May be led by Ordo Xenos Inquisitors.
May use Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, as above.

Ordo Hereticus:
SoB: can be used either as an independant army, representing the Covent going to wage wars against heretics in the name of the Ecclesiarchy (thus including Priests and Missionaries, and even Red Redemptionists), or as a part of an Inquisitorial army, led by Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors.
May use Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, as above.

All Ordos:
Inquisitors: HQ choices to lead Inquisitorial Armies.

I think this would better fit the purposes of the different Ordos of the Inquisition, as I see them. But I may be wrong.;)

htj
11-03-2010, 13:04
I'm in the camp for Sisters getting their own Codex, with Ecclesiarchy units and allies rules. I love the Inquisition and I have a soft spot for Grey Knights but they're terribly limited in terms of units. Putting them together in the same 'dex makes sense to me. But then, so does putting Blood Angels, Darks Angels, Black Templars and Space Wolves in one Codex, so I guess I'm just biased that way.

Lord of Worms
11-03-2010, 13:07
But then, so does putting Blood Angels, Darks Angels, Black Templars and Space Wolves in one Codex, so I guess I'm just biased that way.

At least DA and Vanilla together. I mean, really. What do the DAngels have that the Smurfs don't? A little 20 page pamphlet was enough once, so was a 3 page article in chapter approved or a campaign codex. Now everything has to be a Big Deal.

Worsle
11-03-2010, 13:14
Lord of Worms so I take it you are hapy with the state of the game then? I mean really from your repeated posts I find it hard to tell.

A single inquisition codex would be terrible and look terrible so we can ignore that idea. Separate books focusing in on the sisters and the grey knights is what I want. Grey knights especially need a lot of work. They need more units and more unique equipment to show that they are really something unique even among the space marines.

I think it is also safe to say that deathwatch and the ordo xenos is a fairly dead subject too. We have had to long with nothing to do with them in 40k and with sternguard taking what was their unique rule from the old pdf I really don't see them happening. Really you might as well make a SM army and call it a deathwatch army as I don't see us getting anything else soon or even at all.

AndrewGPaul
11-03-2010, 13:15
I'd like to see GK get two lists in the one codex. One a general purpose take on all-comers list - different to other marines and maybe with more psychics or anti-psychics.

What would you like to see for GK?

I wouldn't like to see that. Bear in mind that this is what I want, not necessarily what others (especially those who actually have a Grey Knights army) would want.

Grey Knights are supposed to be the Imperium's elite anti-daemon forces, and the last resort before Exterminatus. It simply doesn't make sense, IMO, for the Grey Knights to do anything other than specialise in fighting Chaos, because they won't be fighting anyone else.

This would have been easier to do if they hadn't made them a full army. If the ****hunters army lists had remained as simply allied contingents for other Imperial forces, Grey Knights could be made as purely anti-daemon troops, since you could include the unit or not, depending who you're fighting. Once you make an entire army, players are going to buy them and, not unreasonably, want to fight Orks without being gubbed repeatedly, so you need to water down the focus of the army.

Worsle
11-03-2010, 13:22
AndrewGPaul but the grey knights don't only fight daemons. They are also used to wipe out marine chapters that are seen to tainted and anything else where they don't want people to know why or don't trust them to know why. They also do take the field by them selves. Makes as much sense for them to be an army as anyone else.

That and even if they where an allied only unit they would still have to be useful against more than just daemons. I know I like building solid all comers list, and I know other people do too, and I would not field a unit that only serves a role if I am fighting on one army and otherwise just stand about looking pretty but not doing anything. They also can't be to good against daemons either, even if we ignore the fact daemons are kind of sucky anyway. Again this is a game and there is no point in stacking all the odds in favour of one player, why would a daemons player want to fight daemon hunters if he would just loose anyway?

Lord of Worms
11-03-2010, 13:22
Lord of Worms so I take it you are hapy with the state of the game then? I mean really from your repeated posts I find it hard to tell.

Try harder.;)

htj
11-03-2010, 13:40
I've got to say, I love the Inquisition models, I love the idea of it, but I never really got on board with them being on the battlefield. I couldn't help but feel that maybe they'd be better off dropped from 40K. This is coming from someone who has bought almost all of the Inquisition models released. Personally, I'd like to see a Necromunda expansion to use them in. Much like certain good folks are working on already.

Lord of Worms
11-03-2010, 13:41
Personally, I'd like to see a Necromunda expansion to use them in. Much like certain good folks are working on already.

There is one already. It's a whole campaign book called Chaos Gate or somesuch. You can find in wherever the old SG archives are hosted nowadays.

Souleater
11-03-2010, 13:44
This would have been easier to do if they hadn't made them a full army.

Grey Knights had a stand alone list back in Rogue Trader. That list was basically a Marine list with a few Inquisitors tacked on. But it was a full-fledged they were not allies in any way shape or form at that point.

(As an aside does this make them the first Chapter specific Army List?)

While it could obvioulsy be used to fight anybody it came in a book that had the first Chaos Space Marine and Daemonic Warband lists.

I agree that it is tricky justifying GK fighting everybody else with 'all-comers' type weapons. Possibly this is one of the reasons that GK haven't been updated?

Lord of Worms
11-03-2010, 13:48
I agree that it is tricky justifying GK fighting everybody else with 'all-comers' type weapons. Possibly this is one of the reasons that GK haven't been updated?

They were never designed for it. Inquisition was the only codex that had it's own missions in 4th. It also let your opponent take different models. It was clearly designed to be a fun, scenario driven army. Not a tournament army.

AndrewGPaul
11-03-2010, 13:51
AndrewGPaul but the grey knights don't only fight daemons. They are also used to wipe out marine chapters that are seen to tainted and anything else where they don't want people to know why or don't trust them to know why. They also do take the field by them selves.

The fluff serves the game. The fluff depicting the Grey Knights doing that sort of thing postdates them being made as a whole army. Before then, the only major references to the Grey Knights were the First Battle of Armageddon, where they took down Angron and the flavour text in Dark Millennium and the Warhammer 40,000 Compilation, both of which had Grey Knight Terminators against greater Daemons.

Of course, if we could somehow have weaned gamers of the odd idea that putting together an army to face a specific opponent is unusual or dishonourable, then they could have remained a choice to be used only against appropriate opponents, and I wouldn't be so grumpy. :)

Sisters of Battle shouldn't have been shackled to the Inquisition IMO - that always seemed an odd choice.

sephiroth87
11-03-2010, 13:53
I would be fine with an Inquisition only codex. Make both armies playable and give them benefits/army structure for taking army HQ models that were either Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle. It won't be hard and they need their costs made cheaper, especially the grey knights and terminators. And they need to bring back the old exorcist model on the Sisters. The giant organ of doom was awesome.

blake
11-03-2010, 13:55
1. Drop Allies

2. Give the basic Grey Knight a focus. As it stands right now your spending 26pts for a guy who's a little bit better at shooting, and a little bit better at melee. But he can't really focus on either.

3. Don't have to give them a lot of the toys from C:SM. But i would probably toss them some Bikers and Assault Troops to fill out their Fast Attack, maybe Land Speeders. I would probably steer away from anything "Scout" wise.

4. For an Elite choice maybe a couple types of dread's. I also could see a "Lone Wolf" style unit entry could fit in well in this army.

Those would be my idea's.

AndrewGPaul
11-03-2010, 13:58
Grey Knights had a stand alone list back in Rogue Trader. That list was basically a Marine list with a few Inquisitors tacked on. But it was a full-fledged they were not allies in any way shape or form at that point.

(As an aside does this make them the first Chapter specific Army List?)


Technically true, but did you ever see one? I didn't. Plus, you were restricted to a maximum random number of actual Grey Knights, with the balance having to be made up of other troops. There certainly weren't any miniatures, which is really what pushes the popularity of an army.

The first Chapter-specific army list was the Space Wolves list for the campaign in Chapter Approved; the Book of the Astronomican, although that was supposed to be for that campaign alone. Also, the Black Legion, World Eaters and Emperor's Children army lists came before the Grey Knights in Slaves To Darkness; at best it was the fourth. :)

Worsle
11-03-2010, 13:59
AndrewGPaul given grey knights can track their first army list back to rouge trader days there is a lot of fluff out there that post dates them. Flame falcons story is old enough now anyway, grey knights now have a reason to be used against anything and every one is happy the end.

Also maybe it is more people should be wiened of the idea that tailoring lists is a good idea? Tailor your list you weeken your ablity to make lists and handle versious opponents and end up with a very warped idea of what is powerful and what is not. Maybe you would not be so grumpy but that does not mean the game would be better for it.

cptmachine
11-03-2010, 14:02
I would like to see a combined codex with 3 lists in total. There should be enough space in one of GW's mamoth books to include enough background for both GK and SoB.

So yes 3 lists is what I want to see, one for GK, one for SoB (which would both be stand alone armies) and finally a allies list for ether GK, Sob, SM or IG which will have two entries (maybe a few more for creative people) in the form of a HQ for an Inquister Lord and a Elite choice for a squad of Deathwatch marines.

AndrewGPaul
11-03-2010, 14:05
My main problem with "all-comers" lists is that it doesn't make much sense in-universe. Obviously, no commander gets exactly what he wants, but the confines of the army list represent that. Why would a Space Marine officer go into battle against an Ork horde with the same force he uses against Chaos Space Marines. At the very least, he'd swap out the heavy bolters for heavy plasma guns and lascannon, and the like.

Making one army list to take on everyone really only comes about with tournament play and anonymous pick-up games. As to "a very warped idea of what is powerful", what do you mean by that? Does it perhaps mean I might use units which are very good aginst Orks but terribl;e against everything else? Something like that wouldn't show up in a tournament list, but it would still be a useful unit.

"weaned", by the way.

Lord of Worms
11-03-2010, 14:12
My main problem with "all-comers" lists is that it doesn't make much sense in-universe. Obviously, no commander gets exactly what he wants, but the confines of the army list represent that. Why would a Space Marine officer go into battle against an Ork horde with the same force he uses against Chaos Space Marines. At the very least, he'd swap out the heavy bolters for heavy plasma guns and lascannon, and the like.


That's where friendly campaigns come in. Playing games that are defined by points is artificial enough. No general worth anything engages in a "fair" fight. Concentration of force is all about cramming a tank formation through an infantry platoon to achieve strategic objectives, not trading blows in a Quality vs. Quantity contest.

Grimmeth
11-03-2010, 14:13
I may be in the minority here, but I don't really see Inquisitors having a place in the game of Warhammer 40k.
The way I see it they're the shadowy figures who work with small teams to root out evil, and if they do find it on a grand scale, commandeer other armies to do their work for them - I see it as being somewhat rare they're on the font line, and when they do t could be represented in game purposes with special scenario rules, apocalypse etc.

Thus, with that in mind I believe Grey Knights should be their own codex entirely - teleportation should be emphasised and vehicles played right back. They should have 'reactionary' rules to other armies Deep Strike (can automatically pull a random unit from reserve when another unit Deep Strikes as an example off the top of my head) to represent their quick reactiveness and effectiveness against Daemons.

Irbian
11-03-2010, 14:35
One army, one codex, codex: inquisition is, for what I have heard here en warseer, imposible.

Dont make sense armywise nor fluffwise and dilute the whole precious thing

Doppleskanger
11-03-2010, 14:42
kind of agree with Grimmeth, maybe somehow inquisitors should be subsumed within the guard dex. The only problem then is some cool models end up homeless, most noticeably archo flagellants and death cult assasins. I would see SoB and GK with their own codexes and inquisitors and some associated models sadly disappearing....

Locally we've been fiddling around with using small warbands of Inquisitors against chaos sorcerers and the like, at about 250 pts and with a fair chunk of rule amendments (such as using multiple codex and no FO). Its been great fun and seems to suit the background of Inquisitors (as in the Abnett books) a lot more than on the full battlefield.

laudarkul
11-03-2010, 14:44
Two codexes for GK and SoB with more fluff and more updated rules/units seems perfectly normal (as a comparison the old and the new IG codex).
As for GK I see them as a main part of =][=. They are the sword of Ordo Malleus, the elite forces of Inquisition.
They'll receive updated transports, units and maybe all GK will have deepstrike as an option (and GKT the possibility of assaulting after deep strike-those troops are elites). The new codex will give us the opportunity to field pure GK army (where maybe an Adeptus Custodes unit will appear) as well as =][= army (stormtroopers, inquisitors). I hope that allies system will go on.

htj
11-03-2010, 16:10
Thanks for the gen, Lord of Worms, I'll have a go at tracking that one down.


kind of agree with Grimmeth, maybe somehow inquisitors should be subsumed within the guard dex. The only problem then is some cool models end up homeless, most noticeably archo flagellants and death cult assasins.

Arco-Flagellants are Ecclesiarchy units, so they could live in the Sisters book. I see no reason why they couldn't shoe-horn DCAs into a Guard list, if they did so with Inquisitors. The best way to ensure balance in doing so, as far as I can see, is to disallow certain unit types if Inq. units were taken. Comments on the balance of the new Guard 'dex notwithstanding.

Promethius
11-03-2010, 16:16
Forgive my ramblings, but I was just thinking about what grey knights do whilst they are awaiting the implantation of their black carapace, after all, grey knights don't have scout squads. The thought occured that a logical thing to do would be to use these neophytes in the deathwatch - that way all grey knights have experience fighting aliens, and the deathwatch would have scouts for their own forces. This would make tying in deathwatch marines with the grey knights a better idea, as it would fill in some gaps in the gk fluff.

Helicon_One
11-03-2010, 16:30
There's so much copy-paste between the Witchhunters and DaemonHunters books (Stormtroopers, Death cultists, Inquisitors, retinues, Assassins) that merging the two lists into a single Codex has always seemed a no-brainer decision, and I'm not really convinced that either Gre Knights or Sisters of Battle have enough variety or a big enough niche to justify a full Codex of their own.

Suposedly Games Workshop have said they don't want to do a combined Inquisition list though, so who knows.

AdmiralDick
11-03-2010, 16:41
so is the question of this thread: what do we want to see? or what do we expect to see?

my answers to the two questions are very different, as others have been.

i've talked about this a lot in the past on this forum, and i can't say that my opinion has changed greatly at all in the intervening time. as to what i would personally like to see, some people may find a little hard to swallow:

i would like to see the Grey Knights and Inquisition removed from the game as a playable army. having played during 2nd Ed, when you couldn't take a GK army and during 3.5 onward when you could, i don't see that there is any significant benefit allowing players to field whole armies of them. it doesn't do anything to popularise their image amongst the community of players and has, in my experience, only really found favor with a particular polarised group. if anything, i've found people who play against them switch from being fans of GK to being quite strongly against them. that, to my mind, is not a healthy addition to the game.

as a part of this i've seen GK radically transformed form an elusive and shadow organisation equipped with bizarre and esoteric weapons, to become a 'takes on all comers' 'jack of all trades' style SM army. now, i own RT and RoC, i realise that you originally were able to take GK as a regular army, but i can't honestly say that that has ever brought much to the table. there theme is necessarily watered down, because rather than taking them only to face Daemons and CSM you have to be able to fight other things too. it also means that, for the sake of balance, they can't be as powerful as one might hope (is not expect).

throw on top of this that when you play a non-chaotic army and are faced with GK army you inevitably have to face the same, repetitive conversation as last time;

GK Player "so you're dudes are suspected of being tainted by Chaos"
Non-GK "er... no, they're just regular Craft World Eldar"
GK Player "well, they have to be Chaotic, otherwise i wouldn't be here would i?!"

which is actually quite offensive. aren't you the one that decides the backstory of your own army, not the guy sat opposite you? why should you be accused of Chaotic behavior?

alternative, you could both agree to totally disregard the GK background and say it really doesn't matter why you are fighting. but then, i really don't see how that can be said to be a good thing for the GK player.

so what's my solution?

personally, would scrap any notion of a further DH/GK codex. in the next incarnation of the C: IG (though it would have been preferable to have it in the current) i would include a special character unit of GK Terminators. i would make them a customizable as possible and i would make each one upgradable to a mini character (a heavy weapons guy, a coms man, a medic and a lesser chaplain). i'd give them bonuses that worked specifically against CSM and Daemons (perhaps tying it into marks). they would be able to hold their own against other foes, but they would not be amazing. then i would give them a special rule that allowed the opposing player to place some markers on the board to denote Chaotically infested terrain which offered buffs to all of the opposing players army irrespective of race and greater buffs to daemons and marked CSM. this would allow the opponent to determine the backstory of their army, not the GK player (they might be Chaotically influenced CWE, or it may just be an ambush, but it is very much their choice).

then, shortly after its release in the Codex, i would release Apoc Datasheets online (or in WD) for GK Captains and Chaplains, Dreadnoughts and maybe Chaplain Dreadnoughts and Landraiders (maybe even a couple of formations and/or scenarios). this would allow people to play whole GK armies in a much more appropriate fashion that fits in with the background much better.

smaller games represent GK units either rooting out Chaos for themselves (with the help of a few guardsmen of course) or being the first on the scene after some guardsmen have walked into a situation that they can't handle.

larger, Apoc games can be played to represent either very well predicted daemonic incursions (where multiple GK units have arranged to be in the same place at the same time) or ongoing engagements (where one GK unit has held off the forces of Chaos long enough to let other units arrive).

simples?

as for what i expect to happen, i have it on good authority (and i have no logical reason to doubt this) the GK will have their own codex (sans =]I[=). whether the Inquisition will be bundled into their own codex or simply made available as a special character unit through the C: GK i don't know. what i do know is that such a codex will almost certainly have gratuitous amounts of pwnage at its disposal (which will not endear it to its opponents) and is likely to break down the theme of the GK even further (Nemesis Force Lightning Claws anyone?)

senso
11-03-2010, 16:47
I'd like to see an 'all in one' inquisitor list, as SOB are my favourite troops fluff wise and it'll be a shame if GW drop them.

As for GK, a cool system would be if they were selected them the way Death Company were in the old BA pdf; have one GK Terminator for free for each specific type of troop choice selected. Then make them the toughest unit in the game, deep strike without scatter, immune to psychic attacks, have them be able to force a re-roll of inv saves in cc. They'll be small in number (maybe 4-5 max per 1500pts) but they should be able to take down MCs, infantry and low armour vehicles relatively easily.

Irbian
11-03-2010, 17:06
AdmiralDick, I dont understand why is a problem to have grey knights fighting eldars but is not a problem a cadia vs cadia fight or a chaos space marines vs demons one. Really dont get that point.

The problem to say "hey, we can sink that army in the darkness, noboy cares about" is that, you know, some Gk players as me have feelings :D

From a fluff perspective, there are several fights that dont make sense, and I dont find difficult to have the same reasons that a space marine for example to fight someone.

From a commercial perspective, drop an army is a bad move.

Finally, from a balance perspective, please, we cant start with the "OMG GK HAS LZERS ON THE EYES THEY REE BROOOOKENNN111!!!!11!" when the codex is not even at sight! :D

Sorry for my english, but I hope my point is clear

xxedge72x
11-03-2010, 17:33
So from this conversation, I take it that choosing Grey Knights as my first WH40k army was a bad idea?

So far I've been getting my ass kicked and it seems like they're headed for oblivion.

htj
11-03-2010, 18:41
I'm not really convinced that either Gre Knights or Sisters of Battle have enough variety or a big enough niche to justify a full Codex of their own.

Sisters used to have a lovely Codex all to themselves, with priests and stuff thrown in for good measure. Now they have even more units to choose from. Sir, I refute your statement. I think there's plenty of variety to be had in a Sisters / Ecclesiarchy Codex. Grey Knights I'm not so convinced about.

Souleater
11-03-2010, 20:41
So from this conversation, I take it that choosing Grey Knights as my first WH40k army was a bad idea?

So far I've been getting my ass kicked and it seems like they're headed for oblivion.

1. Don't give up! I think GK are a pretty hard army to play but stick with it. Try looking for some tactical advice either here or on Bolter&chainsword.

2. GW have stated that they will not drop any current armies. Now that might mean you wait for ten years before a new codex but if they hold to it then your army isn't going to vanish.

@AdmiralDick: Avatar pretty much reeks of Daemonhood to a GK. Eldar are up to all sorts of psychic shenanigans. Long story short it is quite possible for GK to end up attacking perfectly 'innocent' people.

Whitwort Stormbringer
11-03-2010, 20:54
On the one hand I think it would be awesome to get some more variety for Grey Knights and make them a viable stand-alone army. On the other hand, I feel like that's asking for Grey Knights not to be Grey Knights. They don't have tactical marines and devastators, or landspeeders, or whirlwinds. They don't have these things because they're a highly specialized branch of the Imperium's armies. If the Imperium needs to fight off some Orc horde, they're going to sent the Blood Angels or something, not the Grey Knights. The problem, of course, is that this just doesn't translate very well into a playable army all their own. That's kind of why I feel like the Grey Knights should stick to more or less what they are - a branch of the Inquisition that can be fielded as allies in other imperial armies.

Now, if GW were to flesh out the Grey Knights and add units while maintaining the theme of them as the daemonhunting chapter, then sure I'm all for it. But what would their fast attack units be? I mean I guess you could have Grey Knights on bikes, that doesn't seem so out of place. For heavy support, what would you have besides a Dreadnaught? Maybe a landraider variant, but vindicators and whirlwinds seem out of the question (I don't have strong support for this, just the way I feel on the matter). It would seem odd to add any sort of chaplain or librarian equivalents, since all Grey Knights are already psychic and they're supposed to be one of the most devout chapters.

LonelyPath
11-03-2010, 21:33
2. GW have stated that they will not drop any current armies. Now that might mean you wait for ten years before a new codex but if they hold to it then your army isn't going to vanish.

Wasn't it also stated that all the existing armies will get some form of update before the release of 6th edition?

I think GK can be expanded into a viable force of their very own without resorting to diluting them and making them closer to other SM chapters. They are as non-codex as you can get and should remain as such.

They don't need things like land speeders, predators, devastator squads and the like. What the do need are more units and character options that fit the theme of the chapter. For instance, Chaplains are present in novels and fluff, so throw them in, but make them a little different to others present among other SM chapters, I'm not sure how to do this, but they would needless to say be psykers in their own right, as all GK are sykers to some extent even if their powers are not great enough to truly manifest. Teleport attack squads work fine, but I think they need some expansion in their arsenal (and also remove psycannons, I don't see them fitting such a squad). Purgation squads need access to more weaponry, but they don't really need plasma cannons, multi-meltas and their ilk, instead think up some new weaponry dedicated to the GK for them to use (maybe some form of super storm bolter?). Meanwhile, the regular GK squad seems fine as a tactical unit. Give all the GK frag and krak grenades as standard though, it's daft these days for them to not have them and then only allow the justicar to have access to these useful tools of the trade.

I'd give them a Dreadnought character, seeing how rare their dreadnoughts are, they would be things of legend among the chapter. Throw in the GK LRR, it's great and should be put in the codex.

There are many possible directions and methods to take them in to make them a full army in their own right, it would take a heck of alot of work to accomplish, but I feel it would be worthwhile and a interesting list. As alreadt stated GK are there to hunt down and remove daemonic incursions, but they have other roles that are equally important and serve them readily, their army list should reflect this.

KingDeath
11-03-2010, 21:34
On the one hand I think it would be awesome to get some more variety for Grey Knights and make them a viable stand-alone army. On the other hand, I feel like that's asking for Grey Knights not to be Grey Knights. They don't have tactical marines and devastators, or landspeeders, or whirlwinds. They don't have these things because they're a highly specialized branch of the Imperium's armies. If the Imperium needs to fight off some Orc horde, they're going to sent the Blood Angels or something, not the Grey Knights. The problem, of course, is that this just doesn't translate very well into a playable army all their own. That's kind of why I feel like the Grey Knights should stick to more or less what they are - a branch of the Inquisition that can be fielded as allies in other imperial armies.

Now, if GW were to flesh out the Grey Knights and add units while maintaining the theme of them as the daemonhunting chapter, then sure I'm all for it. But what would their fast attack units be? I mean I guess you could have Grey Knights on bikes, that doesn't seem so out of place. For heavy support, what would you have besides a Dreadnaught? Maybe a landraider variant, but vindicators and whirlwinds seem out of the question (I don't have strong support for this, just the way I feel on the matter). It would seem odd to add any sort of chaplain or librarian equivalents, since all Grey Knights are already psychic and they're supposed to be one of the most devout chapters.

Thats why they need to be part of a Daemon Hunters Codex. Besides the normal PAGK squad the versatile ( at least he should be... ) inquisitorial stormtrooper should become the mainstay of the Codex. Anti armour firepower? Cool, take an appropriately priced meltasquad in a rhino/ Chimera.
Fast attack? Either deep striking ( reliably deep striking of course, some extra rule might be in order ) GK squad or stormtroopers ( a Valkyrie would be an awesome adition ). Heavy support? Purgation squads/ dreads/ landraiders or something similar. It is most certainly possible to create a fun, versatile and still fluffy Daemonhunters Codex, just not a pure GK one.

Regarding the issues with Inquisitors. I fail to see why some of the most militant and best trained Inquisitors ( and the Malleus is known for his martialy minded members ) would not be seen on the battlefield. Leave the sulking in shadows to the Hereticus people :D

El Torro
11-03-2010, 21:50
Like a lot of people I'm not really comfortable with the idea of Grey Knights having their own codex. Maybe it's just my lack of imagination but if they do get their own codex all I see is GW making them more like standard Space Marines and if that's the case then what's the point? Personally I think any codex including Grey Knights will have a number of non Grey Knight options as well.

SOB I can see having their own codex, they have enough going for them to warrant it. The problem with that though is that I don't really like the idea of the Inquisition being sidelined (either the DH Inquisition or the WH Inquisition). I think it stems from my soft spot for Assassins. I was hooked on them ever since you could take one with Polymorph as an ally in 2nd edition. I also don't imagine a fair number of models and units will be made obsolete.

I also like the idea of both SOB and GK having access to Imperial Guard. I think Imperial Guardsmen (and possibly Veterans) already fill a good role for either force and probably will continue to do so in the rewrite. I don't think the Ally rule will survive the transition into the new codex but that's easily fixed by giving them their own entry in the codex. I think we'll see an Imperial Guard Platoon as an entry in the new codex although with fewer options (no Orders, no Special Weapon Squads, etc...).

I'm interested to see what they actually do. While I see a lot of sense in a combined codex I don't really see it happening and would be surprised if it does.

Worsle
11-03-2010, 22:57
My main problem with "all-comers" lists is that it doesn't make much sense in-universe. Obviously, no commander gets exactly what he wants, but the confines of the army list represent that. Why would a Space Marine officer go into battle against an Ork horde with the same force he uses against Chaos Space Marines. At the very least, he'd swap out the heavy bolters for heavy plasma guns and lascannon, and the like.

Making one army list to take on everyone really only comes about with tournament play and anonymous pick-up games. As to "a very warped idea of what is powerful", what do you mean by that? Does it perhaps mean I might use units which are very good aginst Orks but terribl;e against everything else? Something like that wouldn't show up in a tournament list, but it would still be a useful unit.

"weaned", by the way.

Limited resorces, though no really we are playing a game here there comes time when you need to check the fluff at the door. Part of that game is the skill of army creation and an other part of the game is the challenge of using that same list against different people. Makes for a better gamer and makes the game better when you can take a verity of things to suit the type of army you want rather than take x to fight y ect.

I also mean people have a habit of tailoring their lists of in sertain directions, say they fight nothing but marines and change their list because of that. Now someone comes in playing IG or Nids or something else very diffrent and that tailored list can't handle them at all. Now while it is the players own fault for warping his list into that shape people tend not to look at it like that and will lay the blame for it in the direction of that codex. Why we get some many cries of cheesy for things that are frankly not even that good (like daemons).

Now I have kind of rambled away from the subject now. When it comes down to it I am a gamer first when I am at the table top and that is how I look at codexes too. What would add more to the game, grey knights with an army that can be used against anyone with a lot of unique equipment or the same unique equipment but you only get to use it against daemons? I mean what happens if the daemons book gets redone properly and they get some more daemon engines or some other form of AV and the grey knights are still left with no anti tank? Or if you are using them against CSM (once again when they get redone with one of these nice new books we have been getting since C:SM) we have an army capable of fielding a lot of different types of units so to work against them you would need a range of units too. Though all that being said I don't want the inquisition taken out of a grey knights book, some areas should be covered by others not just the knights.

Archangel_Ruined
11-03-2010, 23:16
Judging by how pretty the new BA plastics are if GW does redo the GK's in plastic then they'll take them all the way to awesomeville.

Purge the Heretic
11-03-2010, 23:18
gk's will come, and they will be a codex unto themselves, there will most likely be some inquisitorial characters, maybe assassins, but most force org slots will recieve more GK specific options, Phil kelley has already hinted at possible Jet pack GK's and an artist did a commissioned GK piece with the same.

A Jet bike character is also possible if you remember Stickmonkey's references to sammel..ish GK character in the works. (Big grain of salt on this one Harry said Stickmonkey was off on the inquisition models/codex in one thread I just read, actually bringing alot of that into doubt.)

I believe they will come back...they will play different from SM, BT, BA, DA...don't ask me how...and they will still have daemon focused wargear...

That is who they are meant to fight, their nemisis, they will be a balanced all- comers force, but they will be specifically tailored to destroy demon and chaos armies.

Ironhand
11-03-2010, 23:21
gk's will come, and they will be a codex unto themselves, there will most likely be some inquisitorial characters, maybe assassins, but most force org slots will recieve more GK specific options, Phil kelley has already hinted at possible Jet pack GK's and an artist did a commissioned GK piece with the same.

A Jet bike character is also possible if you remember Stickmonkey's references to sammel..ish GK character in the works.

I believe they will come back...they will play different from SM, BT, BA, DA...don't ask me how...and they will still have daemon focused wargear...

That is who they are meant to fight, their nemisis, they will be a balanced all- comers force, but they will be specifically tailored to destroy demon and chaos armies.

I think you've nailed it Purge. This is pretty much what I realistically expect when the GK Codex gets redone.

Worsle
11-03-2010, 23:28
That is who they are meant to fight, their nemisis, they will be a balanced all- comers force, but they will be specifically tailored to destroy demon and chaos armies.

So a balanced all comers force but also better against chaos? :confused: Did you mis the basic contradiction there?

AdmiralDick
11-03-2010, 23:42
AdmiralDick, I dont understand why is a problem to have grey knights fighting eldars but is not a problem a cadia vs cadia fight or a chaos space marines vs demons one. Really dont get that point.

i agree that it doesn't make much sense to have Imperial armies fighting other Imperial armies (assuming that they are both sticking to the party line). however, its not completely unimaginable, after all news travels incredibly slowly in the 41st millennium, and it doesn't require one side to be a heretic for disputes between planetary governors to breakout.

conversely, the very nature of the GK defines the background battle taking place. they only fight Chaos. so either the opponent is Chaotic (whether they want to be or not) or the GK are stupid and in the wrong place (which doesn't look cool on their CV nor does endear them to other players).

either way, i agree with you that this is a weak argument at best, which is why my solution doesn't actually prevent players from forcing a fight between GK and a non-Chaotic opponent. what it does do, though, is put the power to define their own army back in the hands of the non-GK player, where it should be.

its up to the opponent to choose whether they are playing a Chaotic army, or not, by placing the markers. and of course the buffs supplied by the markers will hopefully mean that the majority of GK opponents would choose the dark path after all and thus games would generally remain in keeping with the background. and of course nothing stops the truly strong willed and pure of heart from remaining so.


The problem to say "hey, we can sink that army in the darkness, noboy cares about" is that, you know, some Gk players as me have feelings :D

i know, but things don't last forever. :cries:

seriously though, i get that you and others would be upset, but any change is going to upset someone (which codex can you think of that hasn't been met with controversy?) and so whatever change happens, it needs to be the one that brings maximal good to the game. i don't honestly see why retaining GK as a playable army would be more beneficial than removing them. it would be painful to remove them now, but it will be significantly less painful to do it after such a long period of neglect and whilst their so few players than at any other stage.

ultimately, i'm not in charge of the game and i don't call the shots. its just my opinion. but it is still the right choice in my opinion.


From a commercial perspective, drop an army is a bad move.

i don't see why that has to be true. GK certainly don't sell as well as other armies and, assuming you didn't replace them with a more popular, more sustainable army (like AdMech or Demiurg), you would have more resources to concentrate on more productive (and more pivotal) armies, like Eldar, Tau and Necrons.

Purge the Heretic
12-03-2010, 00:17
@Admiral

-Opponent does not have to be chaotic, nor do the GK have to be stupid...perhaps those silly tau are about to stumble onto some ancient Khornate ruins...etc etc...

grow an imagination.

Also Demiurg? over GK...really?

- in reference to balanced all comers, I meant that I imagine they would be half-decent against most anyone...obviously with a weakness here and there maybe even a debilitating one versus some armies...ork horde perhaps? 300 orks vs 50 grey knights does tend to work out not so well for the armoured ones, but that they would dominate where they are meant to.

CKO
12-03-2010, 01:23
The grey knights should get powerful psychic powers, perhaps some that are automatic similiar to warlocks.

If I am not mistaken arent all grey knights psykers?

Whitwort Stormbringer
12-03-2010, 01:32
GK certainly don't sell as well as other armies and, assuming you didn't replace them with a more popular, more sustainable army (like AdMech or Demiurg), you would have more resources to concentrate on more productive (and more pivotal) armies, like Eldar, Tau and Necrons.

Demiurg have the potential to be more sustainable, since they would in all likelihood represent a full, stand-alone army, but on the other hand I feel like completely new introductions are rarely as popular as re-introductions. Of course, Tau have certainly earned their place at the table, so maybe this applies to units/characters moreso than it does to whole factions (given that the Demiurg have been present in the 40K mythos, of not on the tabletop, for at least a little while now).

I can't see Adeptus Mechanicus being nearly as popular as inquisitorial forces, and furthermore fluff seems to support them as ancillary players rather than independent standing armies. They're cool in BFG and Inquisitor, and they would probably be great for some sort of 40K skrimish level game, but not for 40K as it is.

Additionally, as I recall daemonhunters and Grey Knights in particular were quite popular when they first hit the scene. But they've been left to wallow and aren't competitive or new anymore, meaning they're not as popular as they once were. I think a new codex would make a huge difference.

On the units, I could definitely see Grey Knights in power armor being mounted on bikes or wearing jump packs, it's just a lot of the other typical Space Marine gear that doesn't seem to fit them - that's why I feel like they need support, Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and maybe some IG armor at the very least.

daa6
12-03-2010, 01:46
Personally, i like the idea first mentioned at the start of this thread, that GK should be a solid option in a Inquisition Dex, with Inquisitro builds and "rogue" options and the Deathwatch as a support option with use of Troopers....

Also the Sisters have their own dex.

After all the GK deal with everything from Daemons, rogue Inquisitors/Marine Chapters and worlds... even the psychers....

and the Death watch deal with "alien" menis as well as Psychers as well as being chosen from the best of the Marine chapters in the first place....

For the original Post, there was a Codex being designed in the Rules Development section, GK were next to done, and the DW were well on their way, and Inquisitors were in progress and had the whole honest/rogue options working, just not seen it for a while! but the GK i thought would have worked and been really good, the inquisition loked promising as well.... :)

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
12-03-2010, 01:53
If I am not mistaken arent all grey knights psykers?

No mistake. That's why I can't see them as a "regular" Chapter, fighting battles against any enemy of the Imperium.
If Grey Knights are here, you can be sure Daemons aren't far. Or some Corrupted Place or Artefact. Or Chaos Space Marines. In a few words, anything related to Chaos. But only to Chaos.
I can't see them operating as anything else than a highly trained, super equipped Kill Team, with but a few powerful Archivists-like fighters, clad in up-graded Terminator armours.
If they need a backing force, they are the Militant Chamber of the Ordo Malleus, and their Chapter Master is a member of the Inner Conclave of the Inquisition (Chapter Approved, 2001):
This means they have the right to requisition any military (or civil, by the way) forces that they need, in the limits of their orders (as a Legate Investigator with a Carta of Inquiry, see Dark Heresy, Inquisitor's Handbook).

That's why I don't see the usefulness of "normal" Grey Knights (ie: in standard power armour), and thus, the usefulness of a Grey Knights Codex.

I know this is somewhat a pure "fluff" point of view, and not a "gamer" one.

As far as "gamer" point of view is concerned...I haven't any answer.
I understand that rules limited to this "fluff" vision would be very unerving for people owning Grey Knights minis, and wanting to play them, even in tournaments. If they like their army, I can see no reason to forbid them to play with it, even if I don't agree with the need for this Codex.:)

CKO
12-03-2010, 02:55
I think there should be a Inquisition codex, just combine both and make a strict organizational chart.

Whitwort Stormbringer
12-03-2010, 06:49
I think there should be a Inquisition codex, just combine both and make a strict organizational chart.
I'd say combine both existing groups, and then throw in some Ordo Xenos stuff (most notably Deathwatch) while you're at it. If you're going to make an Inquisition codex, then I feel like you may as well incorporate all three branches so that the army is better balanced to take on any and all foes they might encounter in 40K.

Promethius
12-03-2010, 08:27
I'd say combine both existing groups, and then throw in some Ordo Xenos stuff (most notably Deathwatch) while you're at it. If you're going to make an Inquisition codex, then I feel like you may as well incorporate all three branches so that the army is better balanced to take on any and all foes they might encounter in 40K.

One of the best things about this idea is that you don't have to completely take away any weaknesses in the current dex; if deathwatch let you have heavy support, it could be anti-horde whilst gk hae anti monstrous creatures, but leave it so that tanks are still an issue, for example.

Incidently, on the chaplain front there is fluff to support gk chaplains in the gk books.

AdmiralDick
12-03-2010, 09:47
@Admiral

-Opponent does not have to be chaotic, nor do the GK have to be stupid...perhaps those silly tau are about to stumble onto some ancient Khornate ruins...etc etc...

grow an imagination.

lol. i don't think that there's an issue with my imagination (after all, i'm the one that's suggesting something different). on the other hand, i think you may be getting your arguments confused. my suggestion for 'markers' doesn't effect a players ability to field GK against any opponent they wish. it actually empowers players to take better control over their army's background. ultimately its a positive thing and its a bit odd that you are objecting to it.

what i assume you are actually against is that i want to reduce the army down to a single unit in games of 40k; which is unaffected by the previous concept (the chaos 'markers' could be used in an army or a single unit). realistically, whether the army should be cut or not is a judgment call. i realise that you have a vested interest in seeing the army remain, but it is still my opinion that allowing another SM chapter stay in the game in both unnecessary and actually is more damaging to the background and popularity of the game than it is helpful. i'm not suggesting that it will somehow pull the game down and destroy it (that is patently nonsense), however i think that it is exactly the kind of thing that is currently holding the game back.

i guess we'll have to just disagree on that point, though i'd be interested to here in what way you believe having a C: GK strengthens the background and the game.


Also Demiurg? over GK...really?

a fantasy archetype that's been missing from the space fantasy game for decades? over another SM chapter with all the mystery bled out of them?

i'd say that's a fair exchange.

i'm not sure how you can try and imply that the Demiurg are a necessarily a weaker concept than the GK, considering that Demiurg don't have rules in 40k. there's no example to go by to demonstrate that they just can't work. conversely, it certainly isn't true in the game Warmachine, where 'space dwarf' Rhul are just as strong an archetype as heavily armoured, monk like Protectorate. i'm not suggesting that the Demiurg should be identical, or even similar, but it goes to show that it is not a weak concept. so for all you know that codex that's tucked away in the mind of one of the GW developers might appeal to you much more than the one that's brewing for the GK.

i can certainly think of lots more cool and diverse options for Demiurg than i can for GK (who, by comparison would probably end up looking quite repetitive).


Demiurg have the potential to be more sustainable, since they would in all likelihood represent a full, stand-alone army, but on the other hand I feel like completely new introductions are rarely as popular as re-introductions.

that is generally because the first codexes for races have been weak at best, rather than being intrinsically weak concepts. the Tau, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Sisters of Battle and Daemons all had fewer than average options in their first incarnations (Necrons and Tau had fewer than average in their second incarnations too!). why it is that the design team have done this fairly consistently is beyond me, though i doubt it was deliberate. nevertheless, i would wager that Tau and Daemons (if not Necrons as well) are all more commonly collected armies than pure GK armies.

but this discussion isn't about whether a new codex should be introduced, its about what should happen to the GK. i'm not arguing that the GK should be removed because another army would be more successful, i'm arguing that the should be removed because it strengthens the concepts of the GK in the 40kiverse.

(as a complete aside, if i were to also write a Codex: Demiurg, i would try and reintroduce some concepts and archetypes that were lost when the Squats departed. we're talking things like the Exo-armour rather than hairy bikers. so they would play on things that are in the veteran's consciousness already.)


I can't see Adeptus Mechanicus being nearly as popular as inquisitorial forces,

well we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. i think if you look at how many fan made AdMech armies and codexes are out there on the internet you'll see that they are enormously popular. a lot of people have poured a lot of time and effort into crafting something that currently only exists in the background. in my personal experience, it demonstrates a level of popularity that far exceeds anything met by the GK.

in addition to that, the AdMech are not an Imperial force, which means that, were they to have an official codex, there would be a vast scope for diversity and ingenuity that would potentially make them a lot more distinct an army than the repetitious use of SM and Storm Troopers could ever hope to achieve.

but like i said before, whilst i would really like to see an AdMech armylist, that is not the reason that i would want to see the GK removed.


furthermore fluff seems to support them as ancillary players rather than independent standing armies.

i think there is at least as much background support for standing Forge World garrison or explorator team as there is for a standing GK or even Inquisitional force.



Additionally, as I recall daemonhunters and Grey Knights in particular were quite popular when they first hit the scene. But they've been left to wallow and aren't competitive or new anymore, meaning they're not as popular as they once were. I think a new codex would make a huge difference.

i think that all armies have a surge of popularity when they receive a new codex and that popularity wanes in between releases, so that in itself is not a particularly helpful gauge.

better indicators would be: how popular GK have been comparative to other races, how quickly interest in them has dropped off, how popular the army is amongst non-GK players (after all, we are all playing this game together) and how closely players feel that the rules represent the background/their understanding of the GK.


On the units, I could definitely see Grey Knights in power armor being mounted on bikes or wearing jump packs

that is pretty much the exact opposite of what i would like to see, and i feel GK on bikes and with jump packs would seriously undermine the themes and values of the GK even further.


it's just a lot of the other typical Space Marine gear that doesn't seem to fit them - that's why I feel like they need support, Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and maybe some IG armor at the very least.

we seem to be more on the same wavelength here, but at different ends of the spectrum. we both feel that the GK shouldn't simply be equipped as any other SM chapter, but we disagree on just how much mundane equipment they should have. where as you say that they should have quite a lot and thus require IG units in only a supporting role, i would say that their background suggests that they are an extremely surgical force and generally speaking wouldn't concern themselves with things that they deem more suitable for lesser IG and SM, hence they should be a supporting force for other Imperial forces (and as we aren't allowed codex cross overs anymore it makes most sense for them to be found in the IG codex).

Worsle
12-03-2010, 10:49
I think there should be a Inquisition codex, just combine both and make a strict organizational chart.

I know this discussion has happened in the past but in GW current codex manner can you tell me how this would not end up like some sort of ugly mess? If we end up separating the lists out to prevent mix and match armies they would be different books in all but name and GW would have been better of splitting them up to allow the miniature lines to work out. That and the miniature lines alone would make such a book unfeasible unless you stripped large proportion out of each army. A combined book is very close to being the worst of all possible worlds.

edit. Freeze what book =P

htj
12-03-2010, 11:07
I know this discussion has happened in the past but in GW current codex manner can you tell me how this would not end up like some sort of ugly mess? If we end up separating the lists out to prevent mix and match armies they would be different books in all but name and GW would have been better of splitting them up to allow the miniature lines to work out. That and the miniature lines alone would make such a book unfreezable unless you stripped large proportion out of each army. A combined book is very close to being the worst of all possible worlds.

I have to agree, except possibly about the ability to freeze the book.

Lumping all the current Inquisition units together and (as is frequently suggested) adding extra Ordo Xenos units would result in a chaotic mess, ruleswise. What's more, it would be lack flavour. It would be the equivalent of taking a full roast dinner and mixing it all together in a blender. Sure, it'd be nutritious and filling, but as the expense of it's taste.

Irbian
13-03-2010, 20:33
What's more, it would be lack flavour. It would be the equivalent of taking a full roast dinner and mixing it all together in a blender. Sure, it'd be nutritious and filling, but as the expense of it's taste.

I lolīd .

Asher
13-03-2010, 20:43
If they make GK a stand alone marine chapters; they better give them unique cool things like Anti-Grav Rhinos and Jet Bikes. Now that'd rock! :cool:

Doomseer
13-03-2010, 21:30
If we wait a few weeks people will have spent more time with the Blood Angel codex and will have read past the hype and stats for a little clue in the Storm Raven unit entry. ;)

I'm hoping they're a stand alone rapid insertion force swooping onto the battlefield to purge and cleanse! :D

Grimmeth
13-03-2010, 22:04
In a brief glimpse of the Blood Angels Codex it does mention that Stormhawks(Is it hawk? Or Raven? I forget...) are rumoured to be used in large numbers by the Grey Knights...

EDIT: I presume that's the little clue you spoke of Doomseer?

LonelyPath
14-03-2010, 00:36
I find the mention of Stormravens being used by GK pretty interesting, as it would be a way of adding a skimmer transport for them into regular gaming and replace the thunderhawks in the fluff.

Archangel_Ruined
14-03-2010, 01:41
It would be an obvious way of getting those initiative striking S6 weapons into combat, I'd take that any day. If they want to give us a beautiful flying tank into the bargain then fair enough...

Col. Tartleton
14-03-2010, 01:57
To the contrary of many on here I think GK (with some =I= support) are one of the only 3 Marine Codices that should be in the game. Codex, Chaos, and GK. Not counting Ecclesiarchal Sisters of Battle (Inquisition shouldn't be in the game, but GK should. =I= are more into espionage.)

The problem is that their current role isn't impressive enough. Generic Grey Knight #2 should be on par with tooled out Honor Guard.

You'll have Artificer on everyone because the fluff demands it. You'll have power weapons on everyone because the fluff demands it. Your squads will be under the passive effect of a psychic power or several all game because the fluff demands it. They'll have stormbolters with special ammo because the fluff demands it. They'll have heavy weapons condensed as assault weapons arm mounted because again the fluff demands it. They'll have wards against psychic powers because the fluff demands it, and their leaders will cut through the unclean like butter because the fluff demands it.

They'll have better vehicles, better equipment, and better stats because believe it or not, whilst Space Marines are Super Humans, Grey Knight are full on Super Heroes. It's really not hard to justify them fighting anyone.

Chaos Space Marines- They're Chaos
Chaos Daemons- They're also Chaos
Imperial Guard- I think you've seen too much
Space Marines- Conflicting Orders about destruction vs recovery of an artifact etc/ Our Inquisitor made us do it
Sisters of Battle- err... Cannoness wouldn't sleep with the Grandmaster??? :angel:
Tau- Stupid stupid Tau trying to study X or befriend Y
Eldar- If Calgar put an Avatar in the hospital so can we "MEN! STUFF!" :cool:
Dark Eldar- Dark? Sound like CHAOS!!!
Necrons- Obvi Chaos Androids sent back in time to stop the future?
Tyrannids- Shadow in the Warp is screwing with ****, and the GK are used to fighting hordes of flesh eating monstrosities in never ending hand to hand gorefests
Orks- Waagh... Warp... Green ectoplasm mucking about is bad regardless
Grey Knights- Training Exercise

LonelyPath
14-03-2010, 03:21
The problem is that their current role isn't impressive enough. Generic Grey Knight #2 should be on par with tooled out Honor Guard.

You'll have Artificer on everyone because the fluff demands it. You'll have power weapons on everyone because the fluff demands it. Your squads will be under the passive effect of a psychic power or several all game because the fluff demands it. They'll have stormbolters with special ammo because the fluff demands it. They'll have heavy weapons condensed as assault weapons arm mounted because again the fluff demands it. They'll have wards against psychic powers because the fluff demands it, and their leaders will cut through the unclean like butter because the fluff demands it.

They'll have better vehicles, better equipment, and better stats because believe it or not, whilst Space Marines are Super Humans, Grey Knight are full on Super Heroes. It's really not hard to justify them fighting anyone.

Chaos Space Marines- They're Chaos
Chaos Daemons- They're also Chaos
Imperial Guard- I think you've seen too much
Space Marines- Conflicting Orders about destruction vs recovery of an artifact etc/ Our Inquisitor made us do it
Sisters of Battle- err... Cannoness wouldn't sleep with the Grandmaster??? :angel:
Tau- Stupid stupid Tau trying to study X or befriend Y
Eldar- If Calgar put an Avatar in the hospital so can we "MEN! STUFF!" :cool:
Dark Eldar- Dark? Sound like CHAOS!!!
Necrons- Obvi Chaos Androids sent back in time to stop the future?
Tyrannids- Shadow in the Warp is screwing with ****, and the GK are used to fighting hordes of flesh eating monstrosities in never ending hand to hand gorefests
Orks- Waagh... Warp... Green ectoplasm mucking about is bad regardless
Grey Knights- Training Exercise

If GK had all of that I'd happily pay 300+ points per squad, then again, I do at the moment, lol.

As for battling Sisters of Battle, they can also fall under either of the reasons given for IG and SM (in fact all three are pretty interchangeable for their reasons and many more possibilities).

I like my own personal reason for them to fight Nids though. They're truly alien, always evolving and/or shifting in appearance from one encounter to the next and as alien as you can get, must be followers of Tzeentch! heheh ;)

As for Orks, my GK read about them once getting possessed and other crazy stuff, so they're suseptible to Chaos, plus all that fighting must be attracting Khorne's attention by now.

Col. Tartleton
14-03-2010, 04:08
Yeah its like:

Grey Knight X points.
Ws Bs S T W I A Ld Sv Inv
5 5 5 4 1 5 2/3 10 2+ 6+
4-9 Grey Knights 1 Justicar with an extra attack.
Upgrade 2/3 (5man vs 10 man) Stormbolters to:
Psycannons (+2 Shots and +1 Strength) for X points.
Incinerator (Invulnerable/ Cover denying Heavy Flamer) for X points.
Plasma Guns for X points.
Melta Guns for X points.
Artificer Armor
Stormbolter
Psybolts-Ignore Inv Saves and otherwise Stormbolter
Nemesis Force Weapon (S5 Power Weapon)
Hexagrammic Wards: 6+ invulnerable
Liber Daemonicum: Enemy Psychic Powers fail to effect them on a 4+

Then options for cool stuff on top of that.
Justicar can take a Force Weapon for X points.
All sorts of magic stuff we don't even know about.

Stormravens as squad transports.

A command squad and two infantry squads in stormravens is an army.

Alessander
14-03-2010, 05:00
re-doing the GKs so they are not basic marine statlines would be rewarding, to differentiate them from their power armored kin. integrate the NFW bonuses into their statline.

eliminating power armor GKs won't happen, unless all GKs were eliminated.

Voss
14-03-2010, 05:14
They could just take them back to the place they started, with standard marine stats and equipment, who are 'on call' for any Inquisitor who needs them. Then they can be folded into the Standard SM codex and we can all call it a day.

NightrawenII
14-03-2010, 10:34
There's so much copy-paste between the Witchhunters and DaemonHunters books (Stormtroopers, Death cultists, Inquisitors, retinues, Assassins) that merging the two lists into a single Codex has always seemed a no-brainer decision, and I'm not really convinced that either Gre Knights or Sisters of Battle have enough variety or a big enough niche to justify a full Codex of their own.

Suposedly Games Workshop have said they don't want to do a combined Inquisition list though, so who knows.
A common mistake.
Lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack. I assure you, if GW make a Codex: Iyanden, Iron Warriors or Dark Eldar;) there would be enough variety and special rules to justify their own codex.

Secondly, merging these armies would be huge mess, especially with such briliant codex writers like Matt Ward (and Robin Cruddace).

I'm for C: Daemonhunters(GKs & SM+IG friends) and C: Sisters of Battle(SoB & ecclesiarchy friends).

Lord of Worms
14-03-2010, 10:39
A common mistake.
Lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack. I assure you, if GW make a Codex: Iyanden, Iron Warriors or Dark Eldar;) there would be enough variety and special rules to justify their own codex.


Sure, but as the lists stand now...

Doomseer
14-03-2010, 10:57
The clue in the BA Storm raven entry does elude to their use mostly by the Grey Knights and taking a wild guess, the release of plastic GK's and a Storm raven kit could coincide.

I could be way off the scent here but I can see the GK's being a stand alone codex whilst still being allies to other imperial forces. many of us really like the allies and if they release the storm raven model alongside plastic GK's, who wouldn't go out and get some? It has the potential to keep us all happy and line GW's pockets in the process.

I still want the rapid insertion force though, in and out, all heresy eradicated!!

Archangel_Ruined
14-03-2010, 12:56
That is dangerously plausible...

NovaScotius
14-03-2010, 13:26
I'd personally like the Grey Knights to be rolled into one big Inquisition book, but one that places a few restrictions...

All choices in the book are separated into the following four groups...
Inquisition
Grey Knights
Sisters of Battle
Deathwatch

In order to select any Fast Attack, Elites or Heavy Support choices from one of the four groups, you must select one HQ choice and two Troops choices from the corresponding list.

For example, a Grey Knight army would not be able to take SoB Exorcists without fielding the required HQ and two Troops from the SoB choices. I think this would go a long way to preserving the 'purist' lists, and preventing mix and match lists which eliminate each faction's inherent weaknesses. Yes, you could mix Grey Knights and SoB, but the dynamic of the army list would change to reflect a joint-strike between the two Ordo Militants, rather than the GKs fleecing the SoB for long-range firepower, as you have to take the Cannoness and two Battle-Sister Squads.

In addition to the above, I'd like players to be able to take one Troops choice from a section which they have not selected the HQ... so a SoB army could have one squad of Power Armoured GKs, or a Deathwatch Killteam to support them (But not both!).

If you have selected two HQs (e.g. GK Grand Master and SoB Cannoness), then you may not take any Troops choices from outside those two sections of the army list.

So you can never field more than two factions (Outside of Apocalypse!), but people can still field their old Deamonhunters or Witch-Hunters army lists by mixing their Inquisition choices with the respective Chamber Militant.

Well that's what I'd like... :D

NightrawenII
14-03-2010, 14:49
Sure, but as the lists stand now...
*Looking at the BA pdf and new 'dex* Sure....



*snip*
Too complicated.
Also the GKs and SoB have nothing similar, ouside of being Chambers Militant for Ordos. Combined army of GKs and SoB doesn't make sense from fluff POV.

NovaScotius
14-03-2010, 15:04
Too complicated.
Also the GKs and SoB have nothing similar, ouside of being Chambers Militant for Ordos. Combined army of GKs and SoB doesn't make sense from fluff POV.

I can see where you're coming from, but I imagined it as the Sisters of Battle wiping out a nest of heretics, with Grey Knights waiting in reserve to appear should these particular heretics succeed in summoning daemons. I've always regarded the Inquisition as having massive cross-over between the Ordos, and as such the Chamber Militant forces get pulled into it too.

Looking back at what I posted, I suppose it is a rather complex way of approaching a combined Codex, but my reasoning was to attempt to preserve the 'purist' lists, without eliminating the possibility of hybrid lists.

Lets be honest, ANY love for the Inquisition and attached Chamber Militants is a good thing, and by combining them all into one Codex, they become a major faction, rather than a set of peripheral ones that get ignored in updates (No Apocalypse love, no Battle Mission love etc.).

I honestly don't see another way of creating a combined Codex that adheres to some form of background, if there was free choice, we'd end up with a book like Codex: Chaos Space Marines, who have gone from being one of the most interesting and diverse army books out there, to a multi-deity group hug which would rarely happen outside of a Black Crusade. Also, I don't see Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle getting their own Codices, as the release potential (Model-wise) would be too small for Games Workshop without them seriously altering the style of lists that exist already.

AdmiralDick
14-03-2010, 17:29
To the contrary of many on here I think GK (with some =I= support) are one of the only 3 Marine Codices that should be in the game. Codex, Chaos, and GK.

its an interesting concept, but would it not make more sense to split it Legions/Chapters, rather than Loyal/Chaos. the variety between Legions and Chapters is significantly greater than their use of or lack of daemons.


You'll have power weapons on everyone because the fluff demands it.

i think if i were on a mission to send daemons back to the warp and i were given a power weapon i'd be a bit miffed and ask why we couldn't have something equivalent to a phase weapon.


It's really not hard to justify them fighting anyone.

its not hard to think of a reason for GK to be facing an enemy. but its very hard to think of a good reason.

the suggestions you've given are perfectly adequate, but they hardly paint a good picture of the GK. they largely revolve around them making mistakes and not knowing their trade very well. or are simply concerning themselves with issues that are petty and unimportant to a GK.

in the background the GK are so elite and so specialised that surely they'd only ever answer the phone with 'are there any daemons present? no? well call for the Imperial Guard. and don't call this number again unless you've got a real chaos related problem.'

i'm not against letting players play the way they want, but they should be encouraged in the direction of the background.

Col. Tartleton
14-03-2010, 18:29
Galactic Firemen is probably the best way to describe them isn't it.

Ah but they'd have power weapons and they'd have some sort of litany to make Invulnerable saves count as Armor saves. "Rights of Exorcism" or the like. That way they aren't only good against Inv saves, but still wreck daemons.

I'd sort of imagine them as a mix of special ops commandos and knights of St. John leaping headfirst out of gunships smgs blazing missiles in salvo tearing things up and then they get into CC and they're going darth maul with their halberds on everyone. And I'd like to see a Custodes Special Character as an aid. He could be a Veteran Sergeant or something acting an advisor. A mere Custodes Veteran Sergeant of course would probably be Calgar like in his commanderness. 40k needs 1 Custodes Imo. I can't imagine them fighting in numbers, but I'm sure they have the occasional guy who gets to leave the palace for stuff. Valdor would be perfect. Be he'd probably be too mighty for games.

Whitwort Stormbringer
14-03-2010, 18:49
that is generally because the first codexes for races have been weak at best, rather than being intrinsically weak concepts. the Tau, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Sisters of Battle and Daemons all had fewer than average options in their first incarnations (Necrons and Tau had fewer than average in their second incarnations too!). why it is that the design team have done this fairly consistently is beyond me, though i doubt it was deliberate. nevertheless, i would wager that Tau and Daemons (if not Necrons as well) are all more commonly collected armies than pure GK armies.
I was thinking in terms of conceptual popularity, moreso than gameplay popularity. Tau were a little too "anime-bright'n'happy" for most 40K fans, while Dark Eldar had a poor range (IMO) and people had a hard time getting into the models.

Conversely, Necrons were very popular in part because they had been hinted at with a very basic WD list and limited model range, and also because they had popped up in various other games like BFG and GorkaMorka - people were excited to see what the ground army was going to look like.

To me sisters and Grey Knights are comparable - limited options because they're both single-trick-ponies, so to speak, different military branches of the inquisition.


but this discussion isn't about whether a new codex should be introduced, its about what should happen to the GK. i'm not arguing that the GK should be removed because another army would be more successful, i'm arguing that the should be removed because it strengthens the concepts of the GK in the 40kiverse.
Well, we could argue the merits of a faction that shouldn't be included for the sake of preserving their mysterious ongoings etc etc etc, but regardless of which side of the debate you're on I feel like that ship has set sail at this point (in fact, it had long, long ago). Grey Knights have been around, with in-game stats, for a very long time, so to take them away as a means of strengthening their fluff role as a mysterious, elite force is mute. People have already seen them, and played as them, so what's left to hide?


(as a complete aside, if i were to also write a Codex: Demiurg, i would try and reintroduce some concepts and archetypes that were lost when the Squats departed. we're talking things like the Exo-armour rather than hairy bikers. so they would play on things that are in the veteran's consciousness already.)
I'm also not against the Demiurg, and in fact if they were done as reinvisioned Squats (like you say, elements of the Squats, but not necessarily hairy biker space viking dwarfs) then I think they could be incredibly popular. Dwarfs are a staple of Warhammer, so I think that the concept could work very well in 40K, as long as it was properly placed in the 40K background rather than just "Dwarfs in spaaaaace!"


well we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. i think if you look at how many fan made AdMech armies and codexes are out there on the internet you'll see that they are enormously popular. a lot of people have poured a lot of time and effort into crafting something that currently only exists in the background. in my personal experience, it demonstrates a level of popularity that far exceeds anything met by the GK.
I think this is largely due to the fact that we've never seen them on the table, though. The army that we've never had is of course one of the most highly demanded ones. But does that always turn into a popular, economically viable army in real life?


i think there is at least as much background support for standing Forge World garrison or explorator team as there is for a standing GK or even Inquisitional force.
I'm sure they could make it work, from a background perspective, if they wanted to. It was just the general feel I get from what I have read of them.


i think that all armies have a surge of popularity when they receive a new codex and that popularity wanes in between releases, so that in itself is not a particularly helpful gauge.

better indicators would be: how popular GK have been comparative to other races, how quickly interest in them has dropped off, how popular the army is amongst non-GK players (after all, we are all playing this game together) and how closely players feel that the rules represent the background/their understanding of the GK.
True enough. My initial point being, Grey Knights and Inquisition are not especially popular because it has been a looong time since they've gotten any attention from GW. Add that to the fact that you're looking at an army with an all-metal range, and it's just not one that anybody's going to collect casually right now. If troops were available as plastics and the army were competitive, I think you'd see a lot more of them.


that is pretty much the exact opposite of what i would like to see, and i feel
GK on bikes and with jump packs would seriously undermine the themes and values of the GK even further.
That's funny, initially Grey Knights in power armor seemed like too large a departure for me, but at the point that you're going to add power armor jump packs don't seem like a big leap away either (especially for a melee-oriented, daemon battling chapter). Bikes are a bit further off, but I can still swallow it.


we seem to be more on the same wavelength here, but at different ends of the spectrum. we both feel that the GK shouldn't simply be equipped as any other SM chapter, but we disagree on just how much mundane equipment they should have. where as you say that they should have quite a lot and thus require IG units in only a supporting role, i would say that their background suggests that they are an extremely surgical force and generally speaking wouldn't concern themselves with things that they deem more suitable for lesser IG and SM, hence they should be a supporting force for other Imperial forces (and as we aren't allowed codex cross overs anymore it makes most sense for them to be found in the IG codex).

Actually, and especially having read through this thread, I'm totally on board with you in this assessment, as well. For me, something like jump pack Grey Knights and Grey Knights on bikes are palatable if the chapter must have its own codex. I agree with you, however, that as-written in the fluff they are much better suited to a supporting role in other Imperial armies. Really I guess I don't see a whole lot of reason to change them from the way they were when the Daemonhunters codex released: a strong part of that army, but also able to attach to other imperial armies as allied units. I don't know that I would restrict them to just Imperial Guard, but if they can only serve with one other branch (i.e. whatever their next incarnation is doesn't revive the codex cross-overs) then IG would probably make the most sense.

AdmiralDick
14-03-2010, 21:40
Galactic Firemen is probably the best way to describe them isn't it.

that is exactly the comparison that i think we ought to draw with the GK. i only avoided saying it so as not to sound like i was trivialising the GK. i really am a massive fan of them and their place in the 40kiverse, and my ideas are not driven from a perverse desire to see them removed from the game completely. just to resort them to some of their former glory.

the firemen comparison stretches further still. although the GK are based out of Titan, the majority of them are posted to different parts of the galaxy, giving them a much broader range for immediate response than any other SM chapters. but it also means that they are few and far between. which is why the idea of a playable army in 40k seems so absurd to me. its just not the way they operate. a unit will turn up in a cruiser the moment there is something daemonic taking place, if more help is needed then you have to wait that extra time for other cruisers to turn up. by that time you will not be fighting a 40k game, but an Apocalypse game.


Ah but they'd have power weapons and they'd have some sort of litany to make Invulnerable saves count as Armor saves. "Rights of Exorcism" or the like. That way they aren't only good against Inv saves, but still wreck daemons.

a weapon that can ignore both armour and invulnerable saves seems rather OTT to me. its a slippery slope, like AP 3 weapons, Fleet, Rending and various other tricks that have been vastly overused because of rules development that was more like "keeping up with the Jones".

i've got no qualms about seeing the GK better suited to fighting Daemons than anything else (that is there sole purpose for existing after all), and i think that use of weapons that ignore only invulnerable saves is currently vastly underused. i would really rather see them take weapons that allow armour saves (though maybe hand weapons with an AP or ones that allow no better than a 4+ would be a middle ground).


I was thinking in terms of conceptual popularity, moreso than gameplay popularity.

i'll agree that Tau were not best received, their positive mental attitude rather flew in the face of the established background, but i don't think there was much ill feeling for the DE. they were poorly marketed (loosing their first battle in WD) and their range is incredibly ropey. but i don't think i ever heard someone complaining about 'evil Eldar'. most people seem to think the idea of piratical Eldar with a serious fetish was quite a cool 40kism.


regardless of which side of the debate you're on I feel like that ship has set sail at this point [...] to take them away as a means of strengthening their fluff role as a mysterious, elite force is mute. People have already seen them, and played as them, so what's left to hide?

i'm not suggesting that trying to fit the genie back into the bottle will be easy (just as trying to sustain support whilst axing an army isn't easy), but just because its hard doesn't make it the wrong choice.

also, i don't think that the situation is as dire as you might portray it. the current options of GK are sparse and they are not yet 'just another marine chapter', a concept that i agree it would be nearly impossible to recover from and one that i fear any C: GK will create. the GK have been distilled down to their core in the past (RT to 2nd Ed) as have other groups (LotD, Harlequins) and neither are considered ridiculous in their current incarnations. i think it is possible to re-write the background in peoples minds without re-writing the background in the books with the way they interact with the background through the rules. and i think that with a constant influx of new gamers the transition period would not be as great as you might imagine.


does that always turn into a popular, economically viable army in real life?

it would be foolish of me to try and argue that it does whilst also suggesting that just such an army should be struck off at the same time. thankfully though i never thought that it did so i don't feel the need to defend that as a general rule.

however, i think that the AdMech specifically are more viable, sustainable and ultimately more fulfilling to the 40kiverse than a GK army are. i think that there is as much support for the AdMech as there is for almost any other 40k army (SM excluded of course). there are hundreds of sites dedicated to making your own AdMech army. MicroArts will even sell you a model of a AdMech vehicle which doesn't have any comparable rules in the game! i can't think of any company outside of GW that provide support for GKs, can you?

i also think that their difference from IG, SM and SoB makes them a much more suitable candidate for armies that deserve to be in the game than GK. i know i would rather have the opportunity to face and AdMech player than 'yet another SM army'. add to that that, as the AdMech aren't officially part of the Imperium, the logic behind fighting them with another Imperial force makes much more sense.


My initial point being, Grey Knights and Inquisition are not especially popular because it has been a looong time since they've gotten any attention from GW. Add that to the fact that you're looking at an army with an all-metal range, and it's just not one that anybody's going to collect casually right now. If troops were available as plastics and the army were competitive, I think you'd see a lot more of them.

my point remains, though. its not just about those people who will collect GK but about everyone (i.e. those people who have to fight against them as well). i don't think that the C: DH did a lot for the over all popularity of the GK. i think a lot of non-GK players simply face them and think, 'i thought they were supposed to be cooler?' or 'why am i, a non-chaos player, having to fight GK?'.

and, whilst i certainly don't condone GW leaving an army in limbo for so long, their popularity being at an all time low makes making a clean break that little bit easier.


at the point that you're going to add power armor jump packs don't seem like a big leap away either (especially for a melee-oriented, daemon battling chapter).

i would say that deep striking terminators makes more sense. i don't really know why you'd need a jump pack once you've hit the enemy lines.


Really I guess I don't see a whole lot of reason to change them from the way they were when the Daemonhunters codex released: a strong part of that army, but also able to attach to other imperial armies as allied units.

i guess we will just have to wait and see as to what happens. i'm worried that they will simply become like any other Chapter, lets hope that the newest C: SM, SW and BA are an indication of how much more varied GW are willing to get with their SM.


I don't know that I would restrict them to just Imperial Guard, but if they can only serve with one other branch (i.e. whatever their next incarnation is doesn't revive the codex cross-overs) then IG would probably make the most sense.

of course, i would prefer not to restrict them either. but i don't think that with the current design philosophy, a mix and match army will be on the cards.

Ironmonger
14-03-2010, 23:00
Well, I'm a huge fan of the 'more variety=more codices=better' camp, but I personally think that a single codex is not only easily done but would be better all around. How about the long-overdue Codex: Imperial Agents? You could have pure SoB, GK or DW, or an Inquisitor that has to specify what Ordo he's in to build the list (e.g. I'm an Ordo Xeno Inq, meaning that I can select from the appropriate 'general' Imperial Agents list as well as from the DW list.) Simple, fluffy, characterful, everyone happy. Just keep all the cross-over stuff from the two books (I'm sure the Alienhunters book would have been 95% the same anyway), keep the GK and SoB lists with a tweak here and there, add the DW list, put in an option for Rogue Traders (either independent or part of Xeno), have a single Inq listing with Ordo upgrades... done. Would be about the size of the Vanilla 'dex.

IcedAnimals
14-03-2010, 23:12
Reasoning for GK to fight other races that does not involve "you must be chaos or we are misinformed" Really this kind of stuff is easy to think of "good" back ground for your game. You just need a tiny bit of imagination.

Eldar: Eldar forces are seen near Titan the GK being the closest military are called into action. OR, Eldar forces show up on a planet where the arch enemy is conducting a ritual involving eldar lives. Inquisition has gotten intelligence informing them of the ritual and that it will be summoning daemons. There is no way the GK will allow the xeno to interfere and the Eldar know the mon'keigh will not save their kin who would be caught in the cross fire.

Space Marines: A chapter recruiting world is infested with daemons. The chapter needs to recover holy artifacts. The GK can not allow any taint off the planet including the artifacts that will now be tainted.

Necron: necrons are experimenting on the grey knights resilience to chaos and applications of it toward the pariah gene and the GK need to put a stop to it.

Chaos and Daemons are obvious. And they even fight Guard and Sisters in their omnibus.

Anyways on the original post. I am expecting to see GK codex in the next 10 months.

KingDeath
14-03-2010, 23:31
I said it before and i say it again, the only way to keep the Grey Knights interesting and distinct is to keep them as a PART of a Daemon Hunters Codex. This way we could be spared the idiocy of GK Chaplains/ Librarians / Bikers and similar nonsense without sacrificing diversity.

LonelyPath
15-03-2010, 00:20
I agree that there should be some Ordo Malleus parts in the GK codex, but a complete reworking of them and how the retinues work. Chaplains are fine though, they would fit the GK, Librarians and Bikers wouldn;t though (even if they had them in the RT list eons ago, the GK has evolved since then).

mughi3
15-03-2010, 02:19
The clue in the BA Storm raven entry does elude to their use mostly by the Grey Knights and taking a wild guess, the release of plastic GK's and a Storm raven kit could coincide.

I could be way off the scent here but I can see the GK's being a stand alone codex whilst still being allies to other imperial forces. many of us really like the allies and if they release the storm raven model alongside plastic GK's, who wouldn't go out and get some? It has the potential to keep us all happy and line GW's pockets in the process.

I still want the rapid insertion force though, in and out, all heresy eradicated!!

Yeah saw that to, sign me up!

Firaxin
15-03-2010, 02:21
I don't understand the desire to merge GK with the IG codex. Sure, IG players have used them a lot via the allies rule (in 4th ed, at least), certainly more so than marine players have taken advantage of them, because GK filled several holes in the IG army list--a) They're a tough nut, with T4 and 3/2+ saves, b) Their terminators in particular are a better counter close combat or even assault unit than Rough Riders, and c) their storm bolters let them put out a decent amount of firepower on the move (unlike Rapid Fire lasguns).

My solution? Roll GK into the SM codex (to be honest I kinda want to roll all SM chapters into 1 codex, though I can appreciate how that would be harder for SW than DA, for example). GK are, after all, simply marines. Maybe psychic, unbreakable, unique/arcane weapon toting, ultra-maneuverable marines, but marines nonetheless.

I mean, look at the Legion of the Damned entry. Did the vanilla codex really need that? GK could have taken its place. How much space could they take up, really? 2 Elite options and 1 HQ (probably a Special Character) option. For the Elites, you'd have 1 GK Terminator unit (which would combine the shootyness of Tac Termies, the lethality of LC Termies, & the hardiness of SS/TH Termies, but for muchos > points), and 1 regular PAGK entry (which would combine the DH codex's Troops, FA, and Heavy options by letting it Deep Strike and take up to 4 special/heavy weapons). The Special Character could make the PAGK scoring (just as what's his face makes Sternguard scoring).

To round out the list, just give vehicles the psycannon bolt upgrade option, maybe allow the Redeemer to upgrade to Incinerator sponsons and the LRC to psycannon sponsons. Maybe allow dreads a nemesis DCCW, psycannon, and incinerator upgrades. Make all these options dependent on the Special Character.

And you're good to go!

All that's left over in the GK codex which isn't already in another codex (not includin WH) are Inquisitors, Assassins, and Daemonhosts. Inquisitors & Assassins can be integrated into the IG codex, and the Daemonhost should really go into the CSM 'dex, if it's worth keeping around.

solkan
15-03-2010, 02:43
Flying Nuns for the Witchhunters and Mechanical Horses for the Grey Knights. You heard it here first.

:p

jason_sation
15-03-2010, 04:25
As much as I like the allies rules, I feel like it causes too many problems when one of the Allies gets a new Codex. I'd rather just see entries for Marines and IG Squads/Stormtroopers. Of course there might be the problem if the stats change in THEIR new codex.

Gerod253
15-03-2010, 04:41
If I have my druthers as a Grey Knight player there are a few things that I would like to see.

Give them stats comparable to the current SM Codex, SW and BA. Well, maybe not BA. ;)
Give them more Landraider Variants.
Re-vamp their Psychic powers and defenses to make them a true Psychic Marine powerhouse.
Give them drop pods.
Offer an option for taking an all terminator army. Perhaps a new SC for this or an expansion on Stern.
Let them keep the ability to bypass Eternal Warrior, but keep it limited to only one or two figures in the army.
Keep them as an elite army with a low model count.

These are the things that I think would be really good to add, and they simply expand upon what it already there instead of bringing in entirely new shenanigans. I don't want to pay fewer points but istead simply get something that is worth the points that I pay. As for the rest, a storm raven type skimmer might be cool.

DinoDoc
15-03-2010, 06:24
its not hard to think of a reason for GK to be facing an enemy. but its very hard to think of a good reason.Are you people really having this conversation when you play a game where IG fights IG like the other one stole a big mac and loyalist SM chapters fight each other for fun?

oldgamer56
15-03-2010, 07:23
I think most would agree that the biggest problem playing a pure GK force as an “all Comers” list is the lack of Anti-tank firepower and mobility. :cries:

My goal is to make the GK list fast, elite, and deadly, allowing them to be played in a manner different from any other army. :angel:

For Anti-tank, give the psycannon a special “Turbo” round that is Assault2 S9, AP1, 18”range or Heavy2, S9, AP1, 36” range.

For Mobility, give all Troop slot PAGK teleport. Allow all PAGK to Teleport in first turn. 50% chance to be able to assault after each teleport or jump. If the commander wants PAGK to have ground mobility, allow them to use Inquisition Chimeras. One GK squad can take a GK Land Raider.

Give the Justicar a device that reduces scatter and gives the squad an ability similar to “Gate of Infinity” that allows the squad to jump up to 24” instead of assaulting. Basically “Shoot and Scoot”.

Drop the FA slot PAGKs.

Purgation Squads can also Teleport and the Justicar also has “Shoot and Scoot”. Purgation Squads can also take GK Land Raiders.

GKTs are always allowed to assault after Teleport. Brother Captain and GK Hero also has “Shoot and Scoot”. GKT and HQs can take GK Land Raiders.

GK Dreadnoughts can be deployed normally or Deep Strike by Drop pod and can always assault after Deep Strike.

I would clearly support increasing the stat lines along with adjusting point cost in line with newer codices and elite abilities.

I am of split mind on the multiple vs. single codex issue. Really depends on how well it would be executed. Given that all three Ordos use Storm troopers, a single codex seems to make sense, especially if the Storm troopers were also used to provide the bulk of the supporting units. There is no reason for Inquisition Storm troopers not to serve as the scout, fast attack and heavy support slots as needed or desired for all three Ordos. The Storm Troopers would have access to any equipment in the Imperial arsenal, allowing you to field anything from the IG codex, as well as maybe some new units like IG bikes or ATVs.

I would also like to see a new unit, the Spy, included. There is a real need for Inquisitional forces to only be committed at the right time and place. Spies or Undercover Operatives should cost about 10-15 points each and allow a teleport or deep striking unit to land without scattering. Can be tied to 1-2 per Inquisitor. Opponent could attempt to negate with one roll for each spy on a 6.

Spy units plus teleporting GK without scatter would allow you to attempt to take out enemy HQs or other high value targets even in the middle of their army and still have a chance to escape being overwhelmed by jumping out instead of assaulting. PAGK troop units could bounce around the enemy, exploiting weak spots or drawing the enemy in multiple directions, totally disrupting his plans. Purgation squad supports by keying on high value targets or cleans up wounded units. Dreadnoughts used to either Deep Strike as tarpit unit or supports with long distance fires.

All constructive comments welcomed. :)

Santar
15-03-2010, 09:15
The clue in the BA Storm raven entry does elude to their use mostly by the Grey Knights and taking a wild guess, the release of plastic GK's and a Storm raven kit could coincide.

I could be way off the scent here but I can see the GK's being a stand alone codex whilst still being allies to other imperial forces. many of us really like the allies and if they release the storm raven model alongside plastic GK's, who wouldn't go out and get some? It has the potential to keep us all happy and line GW's pockets in the process.

I still want the rapid insertion force though, in and out, all heresy eradicated!!

That's my thinking as well. It could be us just reading too much into that but it would make sense to wait for a GK codex before releasing the Raven so that more than one army could benefit from it.

I think that they could be a plausible stand alone codex if they expanded their MO to dealing with rogue chapters as well as daemon incursions.
I'd seriously love to see SOB plastics though.

AdmiralDick
15-03-2010, 10:21
ok, i think this thread is starting to repeat itself. so lets try a different train of thought.

the average number of unit choices in codexes these days is around 20, and there are currently 7 GK unit choices. that's quite a big difference. for those of us that want to see a pure GK army list, what sorts of units would you like to see added to the codex? how would you go about filling out the book and maintaining the theme and style of the army?


I don't understand the desire to merge GK with the IG codex.

i'm not sure anyone has suggested that the GK in an IG book would be the best solution, just making the best of a bad situation. it would be perfectly possible to put the GK into C: SM, but they would have much more impact if they were in the IG book. the gap in power between the IG troops and the GK would demonstrate their background better than only ever seeing them compared to Marines.


Are you people really having this conversation when you play a game where IG fights IG like the other one stole a big mac and loyalist SM chapters fight each other for fun?

to be honest its not really a conversation. i don't think anyone has said that GK shouldn't be allowed to be played against non-daemonic opponents, just that it doesn't make as much sense as playing against daemons.

i can only assume that the reason that people keep bringing it up is due to underlying guilt complex. ;)


I think most would agree that the biggest problem playing a pure GK force as an “all Comers” list is the lack of Anti-tank firepower and mobility. :cries:

which is quite surprising, considering the number of tanks that the daemonic hordes tend to bring with them.


I think that they could be a plausible stand alone codex if they expanded their MO to dealing with rogue chapters as well as daemon incursions.

that pretty much sums up my reasoning as to why a pure GK codex would be a bad idea. the more GW make the GK competitive and able to fight all opponents, the more they necessarily loose their specialism and theme. it would be better is GK were daemon hunters than silver marines.

htj
15-03-2010, 11:04
what sorts of units would you like to see added to the codex? how would you go about filling out the book and maintaining the theme and style of the army?

Grand Master Dreadnought. Suitable expensive and suitably hardcore.

Drop Pods. Just seems fair. Everything ('cept Landraiders) should get access to them.

A Stormraven seems like it would fit the flavour of the army.

Maybe some more weapon options. Nothing from the vanilla marines, but some exciting archaeotech instead.


to be honest its not really a conversation. i don't think anyone has said that GK shouldn't be allowed to be played against non-daemonic opponents, just that it doesn't make as much sense as playing against daemons.

What especially perplexes me about this is that the Inq. books are the only ones that give specific examples of why they would fight other races in the books.

AmasNagol
15-03-2010, 12:46
Unfortunately we will see Grey Knights on Jet Bikes and with Jump Packs. I can just sense it.

I would like to see them retain retinues, but it is doubtful, and we all know they will lose the 'kills outright' Force Weapons.

Mawchild
15-03-2010, 13:26
Chaplains, Landspeeders with psycannon/incinerator options, Stormravens, Drop pods.

Oh and multiwound brother captains.

AmasNagol
15-03-2010, 13:44
Nemesis force lightning claws!

htj
15-03-2010, 14:02
Thunderhawk Gunship as a dedicated transport.

What?

DinoDoc
15-03-2010, 14:31
which is quite surprising, considering the number of tanks that the daemonic hordes tend to bring with them.High Strength weaponry would make it easier to deal with Greater Daemons, or if we wanna be fluffy the things the Forge of Souls creates.

to be honest its not really a conversation. i don't think anyone has said that GK shouldn't be allowed to be played against non-daemonic opponents, just that it doesn't make as much sense as playing against daemons.Really? That seemed to be the entire point of the latter half of your first post in this thread unless I missunderstood you.
that pretty much sums up my reasoning as to why a pure GK codex would be a bad idea. Which I found odd as you are the first non-DH player who has expressed dislike for the army I've seen.I actually agree with you somewhat on this point. A pure GK 'dex would be a bad idea as GW would most likely turn us into silver marines with UM geneseed. I would be much more interested in a full OM update myself.

Spiney Norman
15-03-2010, 14:40
But then, so does putting Blood Angels, Darks Angels, Black Templars and Space Wolves in one Codex, so I guess I'm just biased that way.

What an excellent idea, they could call it Codex: Space Marines, but imagine the amount of work they'd have to do to produce a new edition of Codex space marines for every other codex release (since we all know that the only range that turns a profit is smurfs), we'd be getting 2 Smurf codices a year...

AdmiralDick
15-03-2010, 14:56
Really? That seemed to be the entire point of the latter half of your first post in this thread unless I missunderstood you.

then unfortunately you have misunderstood me. it has never been my position that the rules should prevent players from using GK against non-daemonic opponents, merely that GK should not be particularly tooled up for anything else and that opponents of the GK should be given the option of whether they want their army to be considered 'chaotic' and gain some buffs or not.

this is exactly why this isn't a discussion. its been the same response each time, with little thought about what the opposite opinion actually was.


I actually agree with you somewhat on this point.

er.. i'm glad that we've found something to agree on, but i didn't say that. where's the extra sentence come from?

htj
15-03-2010, 16:55
What an excellent idea, they could call it Codex: Space Marines, but imagine the amount of work they'd have to do to produce a new edition of Codex space marines for every other codex release (since we all know that the only range that turns a profit is smurfs), we'd be getting 2 Smurf codices a year...

A chilling thought. Fortunately, the idea is pure fantasy. How very... very... fortunate. :(