PDA

View Full Version : What Special Characters are Overpowered?



N810
11-03-2010, 14:04
Alright Guys I want to see a list of all the 7th edition Over Powered Special Characters.(8th edition nominations start soon)
I keep hearing that certain SC are Sooo broken I thought I would Get a Census on which ones.

So make up a list possibly Going from most over powered :wtf: to barely unfair. :eyebrows:

Please mention exactly Why you think a certian character is unfair or under costed and what army they are from.

List so far: 7 OP SC's

Kairos Fateweaver + blue scribes (DoC) <--(Nasty Combo & even more resilient to shooting and even better at casting than a LoC)
The masque (DoC)
Thorek (Dwarfs) <--(mostly because of the anvil)
Skulltaker on juggernaut (DoC) <-- (criminally undercosted juggernaut)
Teclis (HE) <-- (still underpriced and Posibly Evil)[even more overpowered in 8th]
Archaon (WoC) <-- (statistically never takes a wound from his 10 attack sword)
Throgg (WoC) <-- (posibly should cost twice as much & suffer from STUPIDITY)


(thinking about adding to list)
Tyrion (HE) <-- (too hard to kill)
Crone Hellebron (DE) <-- (nasty in death star build)
Slugtongue (Beasts)
Epidermus (DoC) <-- back on pending list.... Still think he might be under costed
Karl Franz (Empire)
Kholek <--(just because of the lightning attack; too much strength for an unstoppable attack)
Villitch <--(superpowered casters in an army with such powerful knights and useful diverters)

(removed from list)
...


Sugested fixes...
Add rules:

Fateweaver + blue scribes: They hate each other and can't be used in the same army
The masque: the ability to drop LD is a bound spell that can be stopped
Thorek: 3k+
Skulltaker: can't take juggernaught
Teclis: must use high elf lore
Archaon: 3K+
Throgg: core units of trolls can only be a max of 3 models







Ps. the Bloodthirster is Still not a special character.

Necromancy Black
11-03-2010, 14:11
Archaon for his points is OP. If he was worth more then he would be fine.

Sygerrik
11-03-2010, 15:19
Thorek Ironbrow is simply not that much fun to play against. Since the nerf he's not so bad but he's certainly much better than a regular Anvil for barely more.

The SkaerKrow
11-03-2010, 15:25
I'd bring up the Daemons of Chaos Special Characters, but they're really just par for the course, aren't they? :p

Veloxnex
11-03-2010, 15:27
The masque: Synergy with the rest of the list and nowayto shut down her abilities.
Fateweaver+ blue scribes: extremely versatile and can make a huge magic phase.
i can't remember if tyrion is as good as i think he might be :-P

The SkaerKrow
11-03-2010, 15:30
Tyrion and Teclis are both fairly ridiculous.

BigbyWolf
11-03-2010, 15:34
The impression that I get is that Skulltaker, Blue Scribes and the Masque are underpriced, and there for OP.

Teclis too, is pretty nasty for his points.

TitusAndronicus
11-03-2010, 15:35
I think Superman is waaay overpowered.

Jack of Blades
11-03-2010, 15:39
The impression that I get is that Skulltaker, Blue Scribes and the Masque are underpriced, and there for OP.

Teclis too, is pretty nasty for his points.

At least Skulltaker is pretty much just a nasty combat guy. The others can wipe the table with your army by their sick synergy/potency.

Enigmatik1
11-03-2010, 15:46
I think Superman is waaay overpowered.

Give me Black Adam any day! :D

The Red Scourge
11-03-2010, 16:21
Its fairly easy to answer this. Just go through the army list section and check out the special characters used in tournament lists ;)

Toads77
11-03-2010, 17:42
Throgg, he's just ridiculous, better then a chaos lord, cheaper, a free bsb that can't be captured, and changes your army to a bunch of big guys who can all use his LD. Has a nasty str 5 one use only breath weapon that ignores armor, and vomits D6 instead of a single attack. All for a hero that is less then half a tooled up chaos lord.

enyoss
11-03-2010, 17:55
Does Tyrion really deserve to be on the list? Granted, he's more or less impossible to kill bar a lucky killing blow (only gets his 4+ ward against that), but he's not that much harder than a regular Prince in combat. In fact, I'd much rather have a fully kitted out Prince with the White Sword for 150 points less.

Bodysnatcher
11-03-2010, 17:57
I use the bluescribes. Their power comes from synergy with the rest of the list - on their own they aren't great. But add in a few units of horrors and a lord level magic user and they come across as underpriced.

Shadow_Steed
11-03-2010, 18:01
Are we talking about the Tyrion with 4 attacks?

Grey Mage
11-03-2010, 18:02
Are we talking about the Tyrion with 4 attacks?

Yes.... as opposed the HE Prince with 4 attacks?

I think its the S 7 that might be a little much but overall hes not so bad.

Also, as a US 2 model, isnt he immune to killing blow?

Sygerrik
11-03-2010, 18:04
On the Daemon SCs:
With the exception of Ku'gath, they're pretty much all OP, but given that the entire Daemon list is OP, some of them still never see daylight (Skarbrand). The worst offenders are the Masque and the Blue Scribes. Skulltaker isn't that bad as long as you don't let him hit your Lord; he doesn't fly and he's hideously vulnerable outside of a unit, so he's not that hard to deal with. Of the Lords, Kairos is just sickening. I'd say those three are the truly OP special characters, but again, Daemons. What's NOT OP in that list?

Lord Malorne
11-03-2010, 18:06
I think you can get more overpowered normal lords than SC's.


I think Superman is waaay overpowered.

Not against skaven ;).

Jack of Blades
11-03-2010, 18:07
Also, as a US 2 model, isnt he immune to killing blow?

Anything, including people riding on stuff that can't be KB'ed, can be KB'ed if its US is 2 or less. Tyrion can be KB'ed just like any other cavalry model.

BigbyWolf
11-03-2010, 18:11
Throgg, he's just ridiculous, better then a chaos lord, cheaper, a free bsb that can't be captured, and changes your army to a bunch of big guys who can all use his LD. Has a nasty str 5 one use only breath weapon that ignores armor, and vomits D6 instead of a single attack. All for a hero that is less then half a tooled up chaos lord.

I wouldn't say he's that OP, for 175 he's about right. I reckon.

Grey Mage
11-03-2010, 18:17
Anything, including people riding on stuff that can't be KB'ed, can be KB'ed if its US is 2 or less. Tyrion can be KB'ed just like any other cavalry model.

Ill have to have a talk with the locals- the interpretation around here is that Tyrions personal US is 2+1 from the horse is 3.... and thus immune.

I think what your saying makes more sense though. *sighs*.

N810
11-03-2010, 18:20
Originally Posted by TitusAndronicus

I think Superman is waaay overpowered.


...
Not against skaven ;).

Eat Warpsto... I mean Kryptonite Superman thing. :cheese:
-Skaven engineer



Ok enought derailing of my own thread....

So far we are only up to 8 overpowered Special Characters...
and there are what... on average of 6 or 8 SC's per book ?

BigbyWolf
11-03-2010, 18:23
Ill have to have a talk with the locals- the interpretation around here is that Tyrions personal US is 2+1 from the horse is 3.... and thus immune.

I think what your saying makes more sense though. *sighs*.

Tyrion is US2 on his own...impossible! It's probably the other way round, 1 for the Pointy Ponce, and two for his overgrown donkey. I'm sure it used to count as a monstrous mount anyway.

And to bring the thread back inline I must petition N810 to remove Throgg from his list!

enyoss
11-03-2010, 18:24
Ill have to have a talk with the locals- the interpretation around here is that Tyrions personal US is 2+1 from the horse is 3.... and thus immune.

I think what your saying makes more sense though. *sighs*.

That's a novel interpretation :).

He's just a normal unit strength 1 character who has a cavalry mount, so has unit strength 2. So a lucky killing blow, followed by a 1-3 on his ward, and it's off with his head.

StarFyreXXX
11-03-2010, 18:27
So far the only SC I haven't lost too is teclis. I don't find him bad at all.

Sanjay

N810
11-03-2010, 18:30
List updated ;)

BigbyWolf
11-03-2010, 18:38
So Teclis is reasonable but the Troll-King isn't? :shifty:

N810
11-03-2010, 18:42
So Teclis is reasonable but the Troll-King isn't? :shifty:

I am only asking because I haven't faced hardly any of these...
(wich one's the Troll king)

and personaly I don't think Teclis is all that reasonable,
but at least he's killable. ;)

pointyteeth
11-03-2010, 18:47
I second removing throgg from the list. Yes good, but not OP

BigbyWolf
11-03-2010, 18:48
I am only asking because I haven't faced hardly any of these...
(wich one's the Troll king)

and personaly I don't think Teclis is all that reasonable,
but at least he's killable. ;)

Throgg's the Troll King...perfectly nice chap once you get to know him, and quite killable as well. At least to get to him you don't have to weather a magical barrage and take out the obligatory unit of Phoenix Guard.

Preacher
11-03-2010, 18:49
Teclis can be beast no doubt. But Tyrion? as an overpowered character? Yes he is very hard to kill, and his mount is faster then others, but I don't know if he belongs on a list of Overpowered Characters.

Scribes, Karios, Throgg is so-so, hes a pretty character for the points. Thorek, Archaon, Teclis. Off the top of my head I'd say the list looks solid N810.

I really don't think that all that many are too OTT.

KalEf
11-03-2010, 18:51
First, I'm pretty sure warp stone is at least 50% kryptonite :(

Second, I think being almost unkillable is one of the things people hate the most about special characters. People would not hate archaon so much if he had a 5+ ward save instead of a 3+ ward

We don't use special characters at my house. Maybe we're all too competitive? But if going high elf magic, I (and most of my opponents) would NEVER leave home with out teclis. If taking a bunch of knights, I would always take tyrion. We like variety, so we say no to them up front. We do however, let people roll with them for their first 10 games or so... but teclis is openly referred to as the noob stick. lol

I too love the sun eater! He is cool as all get-out. I will never get to play with him :( Maybe we should loosen up the ban to: hero lvl SC 2000pts or higher and Lord lvl SC at 3000pts and higher... but then there's that darn changeling :mad:

N810
11-03-2010, 18:58
What does Throgg do anyway ?
(something to do with troll I bet)

FailSafe07
11-03-2010, 19:01
He gets a special attack in CC, he makes trolls core and allows all trolls, chaos ogres and dragon ogres on the board to use his LD and re-roll break tests within 12 inches.

pointyteeth
11-03-2010, 19:03
What does Throgg do anyway ?
(something to do with troll I bet)

makes trolls core
trolls, ogres, drogres, warhounds may use his LD within 12" and can reroll breaktests within 12"
good statline
regen (mutant regen to be exact)
d6 troll vomit attacks
1 use troll vomit breath weapon
Must issue challenges (eye of the god)
reroll panic

N810
11-03-2010, 19:05
That doesn't sound so bad... Is he under costed or anything?
(how much more than a regular troll?)
oh and is he a lord or a hero...

Lorcryst
11-03-2010, 19:06
The characters that give me a rash are :

Thorek.

Teclis.

Crone Hellebron (that silly DE Hag that ignores flanks, rears, AND has poison options ... that thing in a unit of 11 ate my entire 2K of Night Goblins alone).

Archaon.

Kairos.

Epidemius.


I haven't had the displeasure of fighting against the others, but the games against those left me with a bitter taste and a "shoulda conceced before the inevitable massacre" feeling ...

pointyteeth
11-03-2010, 19:06
That doesn't sound so bad... Is he under costed or anything?
(how much more than a regular troll?)

175pts and he's a hero choice.

Einholt
11-03-2010, 19:10
I would strongly recommend you keep Throgg on there, with his abilities for the cost he is quite OP.

I don't direct this at people who use him to field a troll list and forgo other characters. But if you tack him on to a WoC army for an extra unit of trolls or just him, for that point cost you get way more then you should.

He is realistically about 100 Pts under priced. Broken? No because his abilities don't ruin the game but his effect on the game considering the investment is staggering.

N810
11-03-2010, 19:11
175pts and he's a hero choice.


Ahhh thats why he was nominated ...
He seems a bit cheap for all of those abilites. :eyebrows:

Hulkster
11-03-2010, 19:11
throgg should be removed

nothing wrong with him at all

tyrion isnt that bad either, he is just a pain to kill, but he is worth his points, i vote for him to be removed as well

teclis is evil

Urgat
11-03-2010, 19:13
I've tried Throgg, in fact, in a 1000 points battle. He does two things that could be considered quite annoying. One, of course, is the core trolls. Yay well at 1000 points, considering my list, it wouldn't have made a difference since I took 3 units (of 4 trolls), but at 2000... Large units of trolls that get stronger and stronger as the game evolves is a bit frightening. Sure you can use fire against them... but how many people got enough fire attacks to deal with 3 or more units (apart dwarfs, I suppose)?
The second thing is that those troll can also use Throgg Ld. So you can effectively have two generals (made my sorcerer the general, put him on one side, Throgg on the other, and strupidity wasn't so much of a problem anymore...).
Apart from that, he's really not that tough.

(http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3704308&postcount=258 mini batrep if you're interested in how it went)

KalEf
11-03-2010, 19:14
Throgg is AMAZING :eek: for his points! but with only 1 save (that is ignored by fire) he doesn't carry the same broken feel.

For my money,
OP: yes.
Broken: not at all.

Einholt
11-03-2010, 19:18
That's all I'm saying too Kalef.

Kalec
11-03-2010, 19:18
Throgg also suffer from STUPIDITY.

I am not at all surprised everyone calling him overpowered has failed to mention this.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
11-03-2010, 19:25
Slugtongue simply because the potential of his abilities changes games.

BigbyWolf
11-03-2010, 19:26
I'm not sure Throgg is stupid...

I think he has more "cons" then people think though.

Inevitably he will be in a unit of trolls, which effectively makes him stupied on Ld 8, he has to challenge in all combats, and only has regeneration as a save. So while he might not be worth 175 points, there's no way he's worth 275.

N810
11-03-2010, 19:28
I'm not sure Throgg is stupid...


I don't believe he is,
but maybe he should be. :shifty:

KalEf
11-03-2010, 19:30
Throgg also suffer from STUPIDITY.

I am not at all surprised everyone calling him overpowered has failed to mention this.

lol I'm going to assume you don't have the WoC book, and just felt like posting something. :rolleyes: He does NOT have stupidity and can greatly help to mitigate the effects of stupidity on models that do.

IF that was really Really thick sarcasm... I too, am not surprised. I guess that's because they most likely know the character's actual abilities. ;)

Urgat
11-03-2010, 19:38
Throgg also suffer from STUPIDITY.

I am not at all surprised everyone calling him overpowered has failed to mention this.

Nah, Throgg isn't stupid.


Inevitably he will be in a unit of trolls, which effectively makes him stupied on Ld 8, he has to challenge in all combats, and only has regeneration as a save. So while he might not be worth 175 points, there's no way he's worth 275.

Well, I had him run around on his own. He's tough enough, and can use the other troll units as screen since he's not a large target. Trolls make very good screens :)

N810
11-03-2010, 19:39
Ok Throgg is back on...
but just barely and at the bottom of the list...

How rould you rate the ones on the list from most broken to barely breken... ?

pointyteeth
11-03-2010, 19:49
How rould you rate the ones on the list from most broken to barely breken... ?

I'd move Archaon to the top of the list. He's a beast. Teclis should go down a couple spots maybe. I still think throgg shouldn't be there :p (but he definately shouldn't take a lord choice!)

*edit* and Thorek should drop at least to somewhere below the middle. Since they errata'd the reroll to once per battle, he's not all that much better than a normal anvil

Malorian
11-03-2010, 19:51
From your current list:

List so far: 7 OP SC's

Teclis - Not really that bad. Sure he'll get one good spell off but being that he isn't mounted you just get to him and kill him. I've never had trouble facing him.
Archaon - Powerful but once again a lot of points. Faced him once in his current version and I just redirected and flanked.
Thorek Ironbrow - Before the errata I would have agreed but not anymore.
The masque - In a LD bomb army yes yes and yes!
Skulltaker - He's not really that bad. Attack him first and he dies.
Fateweaver + blue scribes (combo) - Can't argue here. This is indeed evil.
Throgg - I think he's a great character

(thinking about adding to list)
Tyrion - see Archaon. Expensive enough that you have the extra units to control him.
Crone Hellebron - In a ASF deathstar she is certainly crazy.
Kairos - On his own he really isn't that bad. Just shoot him down like any other greater deamon.
Epidemius - the larger the game the more I agree with you
Slugtongue - never faced him (yet)

KalEf
11-03-2010, 20:00
looking pretty good, I'm surprised there isn't more hellborn hate? The one time I used her, she had like 9~10 strength 10 attacks and ASF... I'm going to say the nonkillable part of broken must be holding her back lol... she and her buddies are naked.

Einholt
11-03-2010, 20:03
I think thatch part of her OPness, people refuse to denounce her because they want her on the table top. She has abilities to deny the truth through nakedness!!

KalEf
11-03-2010, 20:21
I think thatch part of her OPness, people refuse to denounce her because they want her on the table top. She has abilities to deny the truth through nakedness!!

lol don't they all have that power though?

N810
11-03-2010, 21:05
From your current list:

List so far: 7 OP SC's

Teclis - Not really that bad. Sure he'll get one good spell off but being that he isn't mounted you just get to him and kill him. I've never had trouble facing him.
Archaon - Powerful but once again a lot of points. Faced him once in his current version and I just redirected and flanked.
Thorek Ironbrow - Before the errata I would have agreed but not anymore.
The masque - In a LD bomb army yes yes and yes!
Skulltaker - He's not really that bad. Attack him first and he dies.
Fateweaver + blue scribes (combo) - Can't argue here. This is indeed evil.
Throgg - I think he's a great character

(thinking about adding to list)
Tyrion - see Archaon. Expensive enough that you have the extra units to control him.
Crone Hellebron - In a ASF deathstar she is certainly crazy.
Kairos - On his own he really isn't that bad. Just shoot him down like any other greater deamon.
Epidemius - the larger the game the more I agree with you
Slugtongue - never faced him (yet)

Mkay....

So should I swap Epidemius for Thorek Ironbrow then ?

SteelTitan
11-03-2010, 21:10
If only Lizardmen had some overpowered characters :( I'm tired of having to play against tough/OP SC and not being able to field them

N810
11-03-2010, 21:24
Well you could try to field Nakai from his 6th edition White Dwarf rules... ;)

Edit: Lustria Article, now White Dwarf...
Yea I know he's not overpowered,
as he is very expensive,
but he is quite powerful.

Malorian
11-03-2010, 21:24
Mkay....

So should I swap Epidemius for Thorek Ironbrow then ?

Personally this would be my order:

Fateweaver + blue scribes
The masque
Epidemius
Thorek
Skulltaker
Teclis
Archaon
Throgg

(Although I wouldn't even have throgg on the list if that was an option)

Eta
11-03-2010, 21:27
I wouldn't place any WoC characters in the list, for example for the cost of Archaon you'll get more than three units of five Chaos knights. If anything then it is the knights that are overpowered, although they are pricey.

As already mentioned, Kairos and the Blue Scribes together are very nasty. The Masque and Skulltaker are strong contenders as well. Teclis is a problem if you are not magic heavy yourself.

Greetings
Eta

N810
11-03-2010, 21:33
Ok since Malorian was the first to speak up they are in the order he sugested as well as Epidemius being added to the list.

Stuffburger
11-03-2010, 21:56
I've only faced Throgg with O&G but with that particular matchup throgg is very strong. Not game-breaking by any means, but very, very good.

1) He's a BSB and general for trolls (and other monsters).
2) Trolls, which are already difficult to deal with when you have NO FIRE like O&G become core.
3) Throgg can reliably kill most heroes on the charge with his vomit rule, and in return is unlikely to die in less than 2 turns thanks to regen, 4W and T5
4) His breath weapon is pretty nasty too- if you're dumb enough to leave some cavalry in range they will probably lose 2-3 guys, or he could take a big chunk out of a ranked unit.

He also scales extremely well- getting even better in a large game (Say 4k) where a second general/BSB will give you an advantage over a whole section of the battle.

I'm with the people who say he should be +100 points. The BSB rule should probably go as well.

Archaon is astoundingly good as well, but you pay out the **** for him. He can break pretty much any unit with any character in it and take no damage in return. But, any smart opponent will know this and do their best to ignore him, feed him some fodder or get him turned around or otherwise never face him. In a 6 turn game he's probably not even worth his points. If you were to play to annihilation he's very overpowered. I personally feel that characters this powerful have no place in Warhammer since the only way to fight them is to avoid them or get your own uber-lord.

O&G'sRule
11-03-2010, 23:23
I really would disagree with throgg being on that list. Hes really not that great. I'll guarantee everytime throgg takes to the field his opponent is using the law of fire or using flaming weapons, against that he is very average indeed.

Urgat
12-03-2010, 00:17
Not everybody have access to those, you know. With that name you use, you should know that, too. He's also quite easy to protect untill he can be useful in melee. Not saying he's overpowered or anything, just stating facts, that's all.

shadowskale
12-03-2010, 00:25
Epidemius

Why is this there, you have you build all your army around Epidemius, and mono nurgle lists are less scary than mono Tzeentch. :(

EDIT: oh and flaming attacks destory Nurgle armies.

Solasun
12-03-2010, 01:06
Think the hatred for Kairos + Scribes is unfounded; last I checked the thread asked which special characters are overpowered - not which combination of special characters.

For a blatantly OP but still quite fair, given context, character - Skragg the Slaughterer. What's not to love about 4-6 Gorgers popping up?

StarFyre
12-03-2010, 01:24
N810 - Nakai is no where overpowered in that article rules (its not WD magazine; he was from a Lustria end of summer weekend game at GW HQ to close of Lustria) . He was 400 pts, a lord and a rare. Ideally, I'd raise him maybe 50 pts and give him regeneration for fluff sake and leave him there.

Sanjay

Skyros
12-03-2010, 02:34
Kairos, Teclis, Thorek.

All DoC special characters, really.

Don't really see a problem with Throgg or Tyrion though.

N810
12-03-2010, 02:42
Keep in mind I am only taking a survey, and I have no problem playing any SC myself,
Everything on the list is from people who posted here.

@ shadowskale doesn't Epidemius have like 10 wounds regeneration and get stronger for each
wound he causes or something..? Or am I thinking of another Nurgle guy..?

@ Sanjay, I don't think Nakai is over powered I am responding to the guy who wished
Lizardmen had a character that would give some of these broken characters a run for their money.

TsukeFox
12-03-2010, 04:46
Compare throgg To deathmaster snitch. Someone got the better deal and it was no skaven. 175 vs 270. Throgg has better strength, toughness, combat effective abilities, and wounds. I guess Snitch has d3 wounds, go him. Why is Throgg not a lord choice again?

TsukeFox
12-03-2010, 04:48
If I was a chaos player I would use him everytime. Why not? Personally I think throgg should be a Orc and goblin character.

Sygerrik
12-03-2010, 05:13
Compare throgg To deathmaster snitch. Someone got the better deal and it was no skaven. 175 vs 270. Throgg has better strength, toughness, combat effective abilities, and wounds. I guess Snitch has d3 wounds, go him. Why is Throgg not a lord choice again?

Most if not all of the Skaven SCs are really overpriced. That's not to say they're bad, just way too expensive. Skrolk and Snikch should lose 100 points each, Thanquol 125, Ikit around 40, Throt 25, Queek 15 (if that), Tretch 50, Skweel maybe 20.

None of the Skaven SCs are really bad like the VC ones. They'd all be perfectly usable with points decreases. Skrolk in particular breaks my heart, because I'd love to use him, and at 370 he'd be balanced.

Wednesday Friday Addams
12-03-2010, 05:25
Queek is great for his points.

TsukeFox
12-03-2010, 05:26
True that! Actually Snitch and Skrolk are the ones that make me sad. The rest, most of all queek and throt are well priced to me. Snitch makes me want to melt the model down and catpult it into a GW window. At two hundred points even sounds right since the jerk forgot to poison his weapons. Skrolk should not be thirty points shy of a vermin lord and not have any saves. It makes him as squeshy as a giant or the plague furnance.

Bodysnatcher
12-03-2010, 07:58
Why is this there, you have you build all your army around Epidemius, and mono nurgle lists are less scary than mono Tzeentch. :(

EDIT: oh and flaming attacks destory Nurgle armies.

I play Mono-Tzeentch, my friend plays Mono-Nurgle.
The scary thing about the wall of Nurgle is that it rolls straight over pretty much everything. Epidemius in that list is obscene - get the 4+ poisons and take the banner that doubles the res for every poison wound and the army starts winning every combat by double figures.

Urgat
12-03-2010, 08:44
Most if not all of the Skaven SCs are really overpriced. That's not to say they're bad, just way too expensive.
?
That means they're bad. By that logic, I take a dragon, remove a couple wounds, you're going to say its not bad, but overpriced. If it's overpriced, it's because it's not worth its price. Something that is not worth its price is bad.
I see the same logic applied backwards for "overpowered". XXX is not overpowered, he's just undercosted. I mean, what?
How do you decide that something is bad? A Troop with stat 2 all over the board, M4, Ld4, costing 1pt, would be good. It's a crappy troop, but worth its points. There's only one way to judge if a unit is good or bad: if it's worth its points.

...


Sorry for the absolutly pointless rant, but this always bugs me :/

Condottiere
12-03-2010, 09:18
It's easy to see if something is undercosted, if you can assume that all choices are equal in other ways, by the popularity that that character pops up in lists. Some characters do need to have a reassessment of their points cost, but it seems unlikely that there would be a consensus, which is where we tend to rely on GW getting it's act together.

Raffazza
12-03-2010, 09:27
Thorgrim Grudgebearer is a 5-dwarf killing machine!

crazywhiteboydance
12-03-2010, 10:50
@ shadowskale doesn't Epidemius have like 10 wounds regeneration and get stronger for each
wound he causes or something..? Or am I thinking of another Nurgle guy..?


I dunno what version of the DoC book you've got but I'd certainly like to see it! Epi has two wounds & his bonuses effect how nurgle units play, i.e. it's easier to poison (both you & the opponent) & higher up it's easier to cast nurgle lore.

On their own none of the DoC SC's sre that bad, it's when you've got 2 or 3 in the same list things get ott. Although, and speaking as a long term DoC player, I feel that Skulltaker can be somewhat overpowered when using the option to mount him on a jugger.

EdFireborn
12-03-2010, 11:13
Why is Throgg not a lord choice again?

Because then he would take a lord slot... which has far far far better options and not much more of a price tag.

People prefer a chaos lord (or lvl 4 sorc) any day, even if its x2/x3 the cost

shadowskale
12-03-2010, 12:11
@ shadowskale doesn't Epidemius have like 10 wounds regeneration and get stronger for each
wound he causes or something..? Or am I thinking of another Nurgle guy..?


No his stats are pretty low tbh, M4/WS5/S4/T6/W2/I3/A3
and he gets stronger for each "Unsaved" wound caused by any other nurgle unit. :(

N810
12-03-2010, 12:59
Oh OK so he gains strength not for every nurgle dealing wounds then then...
... kinda thought he had more wound than 2 ...

And NO neither I nor any one on my gaming group plays Demons,
so that why I asked. :rolleyes:

Novrain
12-03-2010, 14:23
Thorgrim Grudgebearer is a 5-dwarf killing machine!


He is also 780 points and a large target....

btw is he the most expensive special character? (barring the gotrek/bugman/grombrindal abomination)

FailSafe07
12-03-2010, 14:27
btw is he the most expensive special character

Yep. He beats out Archaon by something like 70 points or so, which is very, very funny from a fluff point of view when you think about it.

JohnB79
12-03-2010, 14:40
I think that Bloodthirster is pretty strong. With a couple of Daemonic gifts he can have a stat line like this...

WS=10 St=6 To=6 Wo=5 WSv=5+

Armour Of Khorne = 3+ armour sv
Dark Insanity = 2D6+2 attacks
Immortal Fury = Re-roll hits

He also causes Terror, ItP, and a Flyer that as a US of 5 which means he can always charge your flanks and get the flank bonus and takes your ranks aways.

N810
12-03-2010, 14:43
I think that Bloodthirster is pretty strong. With a couple of Daemonic gifts he can have a stat line like this...

WS=10 St=6 To=6 Wo=5 WSv=5+

Armour Of Khorne = 3+ armour sv
Dark Insanity = 2D6+2 attacks
Immortal Fury = Re-roll hits

He also causes Terror, ItP, and a Flyer that as a US of 5 which means he can always charge your flanks and get the flank bonus and takes your ranks aways.

Well the thirster is over powered... But he's not a special Character.
(Special characters come with names, and their own equipment that you can't change)

JohnB79
12-03-2010, 14:52
Oh yea, Oops. Nevermind forget about the Bloodman.

Garion
12-03-2010, 14:59
I think Superman is waaay overpowered.

Yeah wolverine too. lol

moose
12-03-2010, 15:01
The Skulltaker is pretty badass, and not alot of people give this SC his due credit because of the ridiculous amount of cheese in the DoC armybook.

His stats and rules for his points cost are just quality.

The only special character I use is The Masque, and for all intents and purposes I admit she is cranberry flavoured wensleydale.


Moose.

shadowskale
12-03-2010, 15:09
Oh OK so he gains strength not for every nurgle dealing wounds then then...
... kinda thought he had more wound than 2 ...

And NO neither I nor any one on my gaming group plays Demons,
so that why I asked. :rolleyes:

It takes about 35unsaved wounds to max out his power too.
hard to pull of easy to kill, I certainly don't think his overpowered.

Lord Mazdamundi is overpowered IMO, I mean "there is no limit to the number of dice Mazdamundi can use when casting a spell" he knows all the spells from one lore, and ruination of cities, and thats before we cover the 2+ save the stegidon he rides has, how they both have 6wounds, how the cobra mace "always strikes first" is poisoned hits for S5, AND can destroy a magic weapon. all for 620points.

Alltaken
12-03-2010, 15:11
No his stats are pretty low tbh, M4/WS5/S4/T6/W2/I3/A3
and he gets stronger for each "Unsaved" wound caused by any other nurgle unit. :(

Dude Epidermus was build to play in a nurgle army, so he really becomes pretty overpowered

shadowskale
12-03-2010, 15:18
Dude Epidermus was build to play in a nurgle army, so he really becomes pretty overpowered

Mono nurgle lists are the weakest of any daemon lists though.
Hard to kill maybe, but there slow and weak to flaming attacks.

everything in a mono nurgle list is M4 (apart for the overpriced beast)
so face it nothing is going to be charging, the other player is not going to be stupid enough to let you get 35 unsaved wounds and have Epidermus out.
he WILL be aiming straight for Epidermus with lore of fire or anything fire based.

Gaargod
12-03-2010, 15:20
It takes about 35unsaved wounds to max out his power too.
hard to pull of easy to kill, I certainly don't think his overpowered.

Lord Mazdamundi is overpowered IMO, I mean "there is no limit to the number of dice Mazdamundi can use when casting a spell" he knows all the spells from one lore, and ruination of cities, and thats before we cover the 2+ save the stegidon he rides has, how they both have 6wounds, how the cobra mace "always strikes first" is poisoned hits for S5, AND can destroy a magic weapon. all for 620points.

Epi is very 'mehh' unless he's in a pure nurgle list, at which stage he's evil as hell. Works better at 3k though. He kinda gets overshadowed by all the other crazy DoC stuff however.

As for Mazda, give him Focused Rumination and then we'll talk. As it is, he's a stubborn LD9 BSB cold blooded tarpit, who's barely better than a Slann with 'all spells' Focus of Mystery discipline.
Both he and Kroak would have been good if they had Focused Rumination. Actually, even given a 50pts increase, Kroak would still have been amazingly good (spam 6 times the 5+ spell in a phase on 2 dice from your unbreakable TG deathstar, and watch things fall over.

N810
12-03-2010, 16:16
It takes about 35unsaved wounds to max out his power too.
hard to pull of easy to kill, I certainly don't think his overpowered.

Lord Mazdamundi is overpowered IMO, I mean "there is no limit to the number of dice Mazdamundi can use when casting a spell" he knows all the spells from one lore, and ruination of cities, and thats before we cover the 2+ save the stegidon he rides has, how they both have 6wounds, how the cobra mace "always strikes first" is poisoned hits for S5, AND can destroy a magic weapon. all for 620points.

True, But he easily dies to 4 bolt throwers on single shot. :(
as he is a large target.
also he cost about what you would pay for a fully kitted out Slann plus a stegadon.

shadowskale
12-03-2010, 16:17
True, But he easily dies to 4 bolt throwers on single shot. :(
as he is a large target.

Does't everything die to 4 bolt throwers ? :eyebrows:

Jerrus
12-03-2010, 16:28
Not everything will be targeted by 4 bolt throwers ;)

Mannfred the Acolyte is pretty nice for his points cost, basically a caster Vampire with a free magic sword that can buy an Arcane item and fly a monsterous mount. I don't know if he is overpowered though.

N810
12-03-2010, 16:36
I actualy played a game against Mannfred on foot,
I found him fun to play against and fairly balanced.


@shadowskale
I guess you haven't noticed yet,
I took Epidermus off of the OP list
like 7 post ago...

BigbyWolf
12-03-2010, 16:41
Does't everything die to 4 bolt throwers ? :eyebrows:

Morghur didn't used to if he was more than 12" away, the bolts just turned into salmon or stuff like that.

N810
12-03-2010, 16:46
Does't everything die to 4 bolt throwers ? :eyebrows:

Actualy you can make a normal Slann imune to mundane attacks
and give him some nice ward saves, magic restiance, regeneration,
he gets a look out sir roll and he isn't a large target.

While I think Lord maz justs get a a good armor save.
and posibly a ward save.

shadowskale
12-03-2010, 16:50
@shadowskale
I guess you haven't noticed yet,
I took Epidermus off of the OP list
like 7 post ago...

rofl, just realised, thanks :D
can anyone tell me his points cost ?
I think he is quite pricey if I remember correctly.

BigbyWolf
12-03-2010, 16:56
I actualy played a game against Mannfred on foot,
I found him fun to play against and fairly balanced.
...

Surprisingly, most of the VC SC's are balanced. Apart from Isabella...she's as broken as they come!

N810
12-03-2010, 17:02
Surprisingly, most of the VC SC's are balanced. Apart from Isabella...she's as broken as they come!

Should I put her on the posibly broken list then ?

BigbyWolf
12-03-2010, 17:29
Should I put her on the posibly broken list then ?

NOOOOOO! That post should have come with a sarcasm disclaimer! :D

Isabella is next to useless...

N810
12-03-2010, 18:49
LOL sory,
Sarcasm needs a special smilie or something...

Malorian
12-03-2010, 18:58
NOOOOOO! That post should have come with a sarcasm disclaimer! :D

Isabella is next to useless...

Isabella is another example of what special characters should be: something different that you can't get from the regular characters and has a good fluff/background.

N810
12-03-2010, 20:49
Can you guys think of any conditions/ruls that would help balance/tone down
the characters so they would be more fair and still playable.


over powered special character list

Fateweaver + blue scribes
The masque
Thorek
Skulltaker
Teclis
Archaon
Throgg

Malorian
12-03-2010, 20:52
Add rules:

Fateweaver + blue scribes: They hate each other and can't be used in the same army
The masque: the ability to drop LD is a bound spell that can be stopped
Thorek: 3k+
Skulltaker: can't take juggernaught
Teclis: must use high elf lore
Archaon: 3K+
Throgg: core units of trolls can only be a max of 3 models

pick_me
12-03-2010, 21:45
Any chance you could put what army book these SC are from ?

Mike3791
12-03-2010, 21:48
Can you include which armies each SC belongs to, as some of as haven't read every army book from cover to cover.

Enigmatik1
12-03-2010, 21:49
Add rules:

Thorek: 3k+
Archaon: 3K+


I often wondered if Settra could take Archaon in a fist fight! :shifty:

N810
12-03-2010, 22:19
Any chance you could put what army book these SC are from ?

u]over powered special character list[/u]

Fateweaver + blue scribes (Demoms)
The masque (Dark Elves?)
Thorek (Dwarves)
Skulltaker (Warriors of Chaos ?)
Teclis (Hight Elves)
Archaon (no Idea)
Throgg (Warriors of Chaos ?)

Here's my best guesses...

FailSafe07
12-03-2010, 22:29
Archaon is WoC, Skulltaker is DoC, everything else is right

pick_me
12-03-2010, 22:32
^^No, Masque is DoC not DE and I have no idea who Throgg is or a couple others I listed

Fateweaver + blue scribes (DoC)
The masque (DoC)
Thorek (Dwarves)
Skulltaker (DoC)
Teclis (HE)
Archaon (WoC)
Throgg (This was who I was really wondering about)


(thinking about adding to list)
Tyrion (HE)
Crone Hellebron (idk??)
Kairos (idk??)
Slugtongue (idk??)
Epidermus (DoC)

Volker the Mad Fiddler
12-03-2010, 22:37
^^No, Masque is DoC not DE, SKulltaker is DoC not WoC
SNIP
Throgg (This was who I was really wondering about)


(thinking about adding to list)
Tyrion (HE)
Crone Hellebron (idk??)
Kairos (idk??)
Slugtongue (idk??)
Epidermus (WoC)

Throgg is WoC. Slugtongue is Beastmen and should definitely be on the list. Crone is DE. Kairos Fateweaver is Daemons.

FailSafe07
12-03-2010, 22:47
^^No, Masque is DoC not DE and I have no idea who Throgg is or a couple others I listed

You're right. I missed that...

pick_me
12-03-2010, 22:52
Where is this Throgg? I have never heard of him and I was just looking at the GW website. I figured he was from OK or something. I also looked at BM and didnt notice this Slugtongue. I couldn't find the Fateweaver either but knew he was because I've heard people talk about him.

pointyteeth
12-03-2010, 22:55
Fateweaver + blue scribes (DoC)
The masque (DoC)
Thorek (Dwarfs)
Skulltaker (DoC)
Teclis (HE)
Archaon (WoC)
Throgg (WoC)


Tyrion (HE)
Crone Hellebron (DE)
Kairos (DoC)
Slugtongue (Beasts)
Epidermus (DoC)



There we go.

*edit* wait, isn't Kairos and Fateweaver the same character? As in Kairos Fateweaver? I could be wrong

Agoz
12-03-2010, 23:26
Where is this Throgg? I have never heard of him and I was just looking at the GW website. I figured he was from OK or something. I also looked at BM and didnt notice this Slugtongue. I couldn't find the Fateweaver either but knew he was because I've heard people talk about him.

Throgg is the trollking, he's a Warriors of chaos character, he doesn't have an official model. Kairos is a two-headed lord of change, he also does not have a model.

Lord Inquisitor
13-03-2010, 00:03
Surprisingly, most of the VC SC's are balanced.
Yeah, I think so too. The only one (or two, depending on how you think about it) is Mannfred, both elder and younger. Elder because its the one easy way to spam vanhels, younger because he can take a monstrous mount and terrorbomb without putting your general in harms way.


Apart from Isabella...she's as broken as they come!
Heh, actually I think she's excellent value for points. For only 35 points over a necromancer, she gives +2M, +1WS, S, T, A, +3I, a 25-point bloodline power (okay, with only 2 attacks she gets less than other vamps might) and best of all her chalice to regain wounds on her or other characters in her unit, that adds up pretty nicely. She's not the Masque, but certainly a bargain for the points.

Eumerin
13-03-2010, 00:03
looking pretty good, I'm surprised there isn't more hellborn hate? The one time I used her, she had like 9~10 strength 10 attacks and ASF... I'm going to say the nonkillable part of broken must be holding her back lol... she and her buddies are naked.

7-10 S10 attacks (roll at the start of the combat phase). She doesn't get ASF, though. Additionally, her only form of defense is the Parrying Dagger, which removes one attack (down to a minimum of 1) from a single adjacent enemy model. So while she's an extreme combat monster, she's also T3 with no saves whatsoever. And she's frenzied.

In short, she's an extreme glass cannon - absolutely brutal on the attack, but will die almost instantly if you ever get the chance to attack her. And she's very vulnerable to bait and flee tactics. The problem isn't so much with Hellebron herself. Rather the problem is - as always - the Black Guard Death Star that you park her inside of - the one that gets the ASF banner without having to use an additional character slot for an army standard bearer (who would need to be a hag if you park Hellebron in a Witch Elf or Executioner unit) and that can put the Ring of Hotek on the unit Champion. And just for good measure, can include an assassin.

Malekith's pretty nasty inside a BG Death Star as well, particularly if you make the mistake of sending a character carrying lots of magic items after him...

BigbyWolf
13-03-2010, 00:39
Heh, actually I think she's excellent value for points. For only 35 points over a necromancer, she gives +2M, +1WS, S, T, A, +3I, a 25-point bloodline power (okay, with only 2 attacks she gets less than other vamps might) and best of all her chalice to regain wounds on her or other characters in her unit, that adds up pretty nicely. She's not the Masque, but certainly a bargain for the points.

Her best (and perhaps only) role is as a support character, if you follow the lines of fluff she goes well together in a unit with Vlad (although he really doesn't need anything else to keep him alive). On her own she is vulnerable, a relatively poor fighter and wizard. She backs up other Vamps well also, but when I used to field multiple Vamps in the same list, I preferred to have them spread out in the army, keeping everything at marching pace etc.

As for Mannfred, I look at him and the other VC characters like this:

Vlad- 490 points worth of pure points denial. 4+ ward, one off 2+ "come back to life" and the Blood Drinker, and his gifts make him difficult in a challenge...he's a bugger to put down. But average at combat and magic.

Konrad- Combat beast, pure and simple, but lacks any magic and his only protection is a 5+ AS.

Mannfred- Great wizard, mediocre attack, and not very well protected (yes, I know he has 5 wounds, but if you can pin him in combat with a decent fighter he soon falls).

That's why I wouldn't say any of them are OP, IMO they are either very specialized or just a jack-of-all trades.

StarFyre
13-03-2010, 04:09
Anyone who thinks Maz or kroak are overpowered doesn't play lizardmen OR warhammer.

Just got back from a 2500 pt game with kroak. He cast his spell twice all game and one of those times was due to my opponent miscasting so i got to choose a spell to cast.

Mazdamundi is next to worthless. he was much better in his 960 pt 6e trial rules version (atleast there he was worthy of his fluff and abilities and had cost to match).

he now hasthe worst discipline which is next to useless (really, it is quite possible to go several games without a miscast, hence the reroll miscast really isnt a big deal).

Since mazdamundi's steg has no ward, just kill it (which from my games, all my opponents seem to have no issues with that), and he becomes slann in close combat, with a magical BSB that guess what...doesn't do anything (WTF was that), the worst discipline and a totally unworthy ruination. (i'll glady use a 1225 pt kroak to him anyday since kroak in 6e atleast could make his pts back...now, they aren't worth the pts at all).

Sanjay

Grymlok
13-03-2010, 15:06
How powerful is the Bloodthirster in the current edition?

I ask because in White Dwarf 221 (1998 in 5th Edition) they did an Arena of death gladiatorial style competition between 15 special characters from Warhammer. They threw in the bloodthirster as a wildcard. The Bloodthirster ended up winning (I can't remember if the new bloodthirster model had just been released or not, which may have had a bearing says my cynical side.)

Anyway, I have seen a bloodthirster take out my Slann mage and TG in a game, partly due to my failure to get anything else involved in that fight. I do remember though how incredibly powerful the thrister was though.

I also remember playing against a Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer riding a Lammasu, but I can't remember if he was a special character or not. At only 200pts he was well overpowered having a range of abilities beyond his points, but again I have no idea how that character is in 7th edition.

StarFyreXXX
13-03-2010, 16:11
Bloodthirster is pretty crazy in current; not on it's own but depending what items you give it. That armour that stops all magical weapons against it is pretty idiotic. It's already tough enough; now you made it so most people's lords CAN'T do much against it?

I've seen the bestway to deal with it is the same as 6E. Mass skink horde (100s blowpipe shots/turn) at the enemy army, or mass shooting (empire, skaven). Undead seem ok with it. It hits skeletons, which get raised and never run away.

Sanjay

Urgat
13-03-2010, 17:51
How powerful is the Bloodthirster in the current edition?

It's tough, but nothing on the 5th edition one. It had 10 in almost every stats (it had ten S7 attacks iirc... frenzied. Frenzy, back then doubled your attacks... alright?), that dealt d3 wounds (I think, i don't have my book here, and I don't want to type D6 even if I actually believe it was D6, I just refuse to type that :p), immune to magic and things like that.
But it was even worse before. In Slaves to darkness, it also had hatred and regen (a double regen too, something about its axe, don't really remember, but the axe was another bloodthirster in axe form which regenerated the actual BT, so it could try to regen twice) :p
Anyway, short story, 5th edition can single handedly beat beat anything you'd throw at it. You needed nasty magic item combinations to beat one back then.

Grymlok
13-03-2010, 19:17
I think Nagash had a spell that could deal with a Bloodthirster in one cast, but what I can't remember.

Aye the 'thirster really was a bitch in 5th. It actually took out that Slann and 15 TG in two turns. That 5th edition thirster did more damage in the second round of combat than a double bret knights charge does in the first. Glad to hear he's toned down a bit now. Think I'd look forward to playing a Khorne army now. Then again, they're not short of other super nasties like Archaon and Arbaal. I've seen them butcher through saurus too.

Urgat
13-03-2010, 23:12
I think Nagash had a spell that could deal with a Bloodthirster in one cast, but what I can't remember.

Hand of dust, but I don't remember how it worked. But it killed right away.

Lordy
13-03-2010, 23:44
Teclis is only rediculous vs certain armies i think, WoC mainly, irrisitable spirit of the forge is just pure evil. Against some armies though he just isn't worth 475pts

Tyrion shouldn't be on the list either, he doesn't die easy but he doesn't kill too much.

Worst i have played so far is Thorek by a mile, only played him once and that was enough to make me never want to play him again.

Belverker
14-03-2010, 03:31
It's tough, but nothing on the 5th edition one. It had 10 in almost every stats (it had ten S7 attacks iirc... frenzied. Frenzy, back then doubled your attacks... alright?), that dealt d3 wounds (I think, i don't have my book here, and I don't want to type D6 even if I actually believe it was D6, I just refuse to type that :p), immune to magic and things like that.
But it was even worse before. In Slaves to darkness, it also had hatred and regen (a double regen too, something about its axe, don't really remember, but the axe was another bloodthirster in axe form which regenerated the actual BT, so it could try to regen twice) :p
Anyway, short story, 5th edition can single handedly beat beat anything you'd throw at it. You needed nasty magic item combinations to beat one back then.

It had Strength 8 in 5th but didn't have frenzy, one of the Khorne daemonic gifts you could give it was the Axe of Whip of Khorne, which gave it D3 wounds per hit and +1 attack doing one wound. The other Khorne only gift was spell breaker allowing it to dispel spells as a lvl 4 mage and rerolls to failed attempts, coming in at a nice total of 855 points :D

Tah Kazak Rik
14-03-2010, 04:43
I think that Karl Franz w/Ghal-Maraz should be on the list. I mean at WS 6, four attacks, auto wounding, no armour, and D3 wounds, then a 4+ ward save with a Magic Resistance of 3, immune to psy, and 18" general range makes him very powerful. Not to mention if you put him on Deathclaw, he has a 20" charge.

Most characters would and do die in the first or second rounds of combat against him.

And all for around 400-450 pts.

Grimgor Ironhide should be on the list with 7 str 7 striking first attacks, at WS 8, 1+ armour, and 5+ ward, hatred, Grimgor is very very powerful at 375pts.

TsukeFox
14-03-2010, 05:22
I think that Karl Franz w/Ghal-Maraz should be on the list. I mean at WS 6, four attacks, auto wounding, no armour, and D3 wounds, then a 4+ ward save with a Magic Resistance of 3, immune to psy, and 18" general range makes him very powerful. Not to mention if you put him on Deathclaw, he has a 20" charge.

Most characters would and do die in the first or second rounds of combat against him.

And all for around 400-450 pts.

Grimgor Ironhide should be on the list with 7 str 7 striking first attacks, at WS 8, 1+ armour, and 5+ ward, hatred, Grimgor is very very powerful at 375pts.

except that grimgor has to be deployed with a unit of black orcs. Too small of a unit and too large a unit becomes problematic. Either way Grimgor becomes
a juicy point magnet that might get blasted to bits before
he makes it to combat

Tah Kazak Rik
14-03-2010, 06:23
Yeah i forgot that Grimgor had to be in such a unit. However it doesnt take away from the fact that against armies without much shooting or even maybe magic he is a whole unit killer.

kholek was mentioned, and my friend believes him to be the most broken. However easy fix: Empire Wizard Lord with Speculum and holy relic, you can kiss Kholek goodbye.

Witchblade
14-03-2010, 07:37
Alright Guys I want to see a list of all the Over Powered Special Characters.
I keep hearing that certain SC are Sooo broken I thought I would Get a Census on which ones.

List so far: 7 OP SC's

Fateweaver + blue scribes <--(Nasty Combo)
Yes, Kairos is definitely too strong and the blue scribes are too cheap. Relative to Daemons, they're pretty normal though.

The masque
Yes, undercosted to out right game breaking in a Ld bomb list.

Thorek
Nasty. Thankfully got somewhat nerfed in the FAQ.

Skulltaker
Only on jugger.

Teclis <-- (still underpriced and Posibly Evil)
Broken.

Archaon
Pretty fairly priced, really. Strong, but costly.

Throgg <-- (posibly should cost twice as much & suffer from STUPIDITY)
Fairly priced. Hardly ever see him in competitive environments. You're probably looking at him in a vacuum.

(thinking about adding to list)
Tyrion <-- (too hard to kill)
Slightly broken, but not overpowered.

Crone Hellebron <-- (nasty in death star build)
Only in ASF builds.


Comments bolded.

A lot of characters are very rock-paper-scissor-ish (I should find an appropriate term for this), but not necessarily overpowered, e.g. grimgor, karl franz on dragon, tyrion.

Lord Inquisitor
14-03-2010, 16:05
Can someone explain to me why Fateweaver keeps topping the list? I've never faced him and while I can see he's pretty mean - his ludicrous selection of spells plus two 70pt+ gifts - he totally lacks combat prowess entirely. So what particular combos of spells make him the most brokeness ever? As opposed to, say, a Keeper with Siren Song and lvl 4 magic that can fight AND magic.

Bodysnatcher
14-03-2010, 17:25
Fateweaver is obscene in a mixed daemon list - other units make up for his lack of combat ability.

Solasun
14-03-2010, 17:35
The reason Fateweaver is showing up here isn't the obscene number of spells he can cast - but the number that can go off due to the power dice generated by Blue Scribes - a totally seperate character.

For some reason this tag team seems to be so broken it supercedes the idea of listing overpowered special characters and enforcing it's own veritable *law* upon the thread.

That said; Kairos is hard to pin down in combat - being a flying terror?(can't be bothered digging out my book for the exact rules) causing mage-o-death.

Lord Inquisitor
14-03-2010, 17:46
The reason Fateweaver is showing up here isn't the obscene number of spells he can cast - but the number that can go off due to the power dice generated by Blue Scribes - a totally seperate character.

For some reason this tag team seems to be so broken it supercedes the idea of listing overpowered special characters and enforcing it's own veritable *law* upon the thread.

That said; Kairos is hard to pin down in combat - being a flying terror?(can't be bothered digging out my book for the exact rules) causing mage-o-death.

Blue scribes are rediculous for 81 points, but I'm talking about Fateweaver - I just don't see on paper why you'd want to take Fateweaver over a normal Lord of Change with twin heads and master of sorcery. All Fateweaver gives you is the re-roll a single D6 a turn, a 3+ save and the choice of multiple spell lores but at the cost of his fighting capability - a vanilla LoC is stronger and tougher and able to fight its way out of a wet paper bag. So what spell combinations make Fateweaver such a broken character? Because I'd be more scared of a Lv4 flying terrorbombing wizard of doom if it can also throw out 5 S6 attacks!

Solasun
14-03-2010, 17:52
Beats me - a part of me simply wants to say it's the multiple lores being able to possibly cough up the right spell at the right time - another part of me says that Fateweaver is probably going to simply overwhelm magical defense - allowing the Horror units to open up.

Synergy within the army makes Fateweaver nasty in my eyes; and perhaps the amount of spell possibilities is overpowering in a mage duel but overall it's not the nastiest thing in the book.

Greymarch
14-03-2010, 18:24
True that! Actually Snitch and Skrolk are the ones that make me sad. The rest, most of all queek and throt are well priced to me. Snitch makes me want to melt the model down and catpult it into a GW window. At two hundred points even sounds right since the jerk forgot to poison his weapons. Skrolk should not be thirty points shy of a vermin lord and not have any saves. It makes him as squeshy as a giant or the plague furnance.

Oh god tell me about it. Sniktch went from being the highest cost badass character killer to a overcosted punk hero choice. Why GW? WHY!?

Shipmonkey
14-03-2010, 18:57
He is also 780 points and a large target....

btw is he the most expensive special character? (barring the gotrek/bugman/grombrindal abomination)

Malekith on Seraphon is 920.

Amlesh
14-03-2010, 20:16
Teclis is really nasty until you hit him with anything at all. If I remember correctly, he's only Toughness 2 with 3 wounds, so if you sneeze on him he'll die.

Grymlok
14-03-2010, 22:35
Teclis is really nasty until you hit him with anything at all. If I remember correctly, he's only Toughness 2 with 3 wounds, so if you sneeze on him he'll die.

True, but he'll be in a unit for protection and with the banner of sorcery he'll have in the region of 10 casting dice per turn. He's likely to have dished out a fair deal of magical pain by the time you get toe to toe with him.

soots
14-03-2010, 22:53
Valten III?

He would kill anyone in combat, and he contributes to ALL combat around him.

KalEf
15-03-2010, 04:17
7-10 S10 attacks (roll at the start of the combat phase). She doesn't get ASF, though. Additionally, her only form of defense is the Parrying Dagger, which removes one attack (down to a minimum of 1) from a single adjacent enemy model. So while she's an extreme combat monster, she's also T3 with no saves whatsoever. And she's frenzied.

In short, she's an extreme glass cannon - absolutely brutal on the attack, but will die almost instantly if you ever get the chance to attack her. And she's very vulnerable to bait and flee tactics. The problem isn't so much with Hellebron herself. Rather the problem is - as always - the Black Guard Death Star that you park her inside of - the one that gets the ASF banner without having to use an additional character slot for an army standard bearer (who would need to be a hag if you park Hellebron in a Witch Elf or Executioner unit) and that can put the Ring of Hotek on the unit Champion. And just for good measure, can include an assassin.


I don't know if you're just agreeing with me in a long fragmented way, or you didn't understand the joke about being naked. I'm just going to assume you were trying to agree with me, being the last part random good things about dark elves. Earlier in this thread:



Second, I think being almost unkillable is one of the things people hate the most about special characters. People would not hate archaon so much if he had a 5+ ward save instead of a 3+ ward



I'm going to say the nonkillable part of broken must be holding her back lol... she and her buddies are naked.

she is made of glass... that's the point!


looking pretty good, I'm surprised there isn't more hellborn hate? The one time I used her, she had like 9~10 strength 10 attacks and ASF... I'm going to say the nonkillable part of broken must be holding her back lol... she and her buddies are naked.

When I used her, she did get 9-10 attacks every combat. She also had ASF, I would not taker with out it. With it, she is insane fighty. The scribes aren't very scary with out other wizards on the table. lol... And I can't be the only person who takes very mobile units to chase down people who like to flee (not that repeater cross bows don't do a big number on fast cav any way)

Sygerrik
15-03-2010, 05:02
?
That means they're bad. By that logic, I take a dragon, remove a couple wounds, you're going to say its not bad, but overpriced. If it's overpriced, it's because it's not worth its price. Something that is not worth its price is bad.
I see the same logic applied backwards for "overpowered". XXX is not overpowered, he's just undercosted. I mean, what?
How do you decide that something is bad? A Troop with stat 2 all over the board, M4, Ld4, costing 1pt, would be good. It's a crappy troop, but worth its points. There's only one way to judge if a unit is good or bad: if it's worth its points.

...


Sorry for the absolutly pointless rant, but this always bugs me :/

Not true. An example of a "bad" special character is Greasus Goldtooth. Putting aside his points cost, he's slow, he's not killy enough to replace a properly equipped Tyrant, he's laughably ill-protected, and his unique special ability is not particularly powerful. And he takes two Lord slots. He's badly designed.

Skaven SCs are all pretty well designed, in my opinion. There's something they're good at, and they do it. They have neat rules or stats that let them do something no other Skaven character can do. They're just really expensive.

Freman Bloodglaive
15-03-2010, 06:51
Valten III?

He would kill anyone in combat, and he contributes to ALL combat around him.

Valten, Exalted of Sigmar?

He was hard, it must be said, but he was a 6th edition character. +2 attacks on Ghal Maraz made an insane weapon even nastier. His 7th edition incarnation is Karl Franz, who is also hard, a bit cheaper, but not quite as killy.

I use the Valten, Chosen of Sigmar (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1181839_99060202131_ColValtenChosenMain_445x319.j pg) model to represent Karl Franz on horse. For 401 points he's a steal, and it's the only way to get him a decent armour save.

Lord Solar Plexus
15-03-2010, 08:37
Kairos and Fateweaver are still the same model. It's a bit misleading on the first page.

N810
15-03-2010, 15:49
Ok updated the list and fixed a lot of obvious mistakes.
added Karl Franz to the posibly broken list...

any other nominations?

StarFyreXXX
15-03-2010, 15:50
but that valten was also 2 lord choices..so i think he's fair.

Sanjay

Eumerin
15-03-2010, 19:48
I don't know if you're just agreeing with me in a long fragmented way, or you didn't understand the joke about being naked. I'm just going to assume you were trying to agree with me, being the last part random good things about dark elves.

Personally, I don't really see her as broken. I see the Black Guard Death Star as broken, and the ability to park her inside of that is where the problems arise.

Stick Hellebron inside a unit of 20 Witch Elves including a Hag BSB with the ASF banner and she's not nearly as scary as she is in the BG Death Star. There are plenty of ways to deal with her once you get her out of the Black Guard unit - even if she has ASF.

N810
15-03-2010, 20:07
but that valten was also 2 lord choices..so i think he's fair.

Sanjay

Yea I can't realy see anything that take 2 lord choices as all that broken.

Defender of Ulthuan
15-03-2010, 21:00
Throgg? Really? I'm like the only person I've ever heard of that actually uses Throgg. I use him because I want an army of Trolls for the sheer Trollishness of it all, but he really isn't that great.

If you pitted him against other heroes on their own that all cost 175pts, well... He probably wouldn't hold up very well then, either. At I2 and only a regen save, he doesn't last overlong.

The only thing that really makes him something horrible is his BSB-ness. But that doesn't so much make him horrid as warrant +25pts. I'd even say that 150 before that ability is fine as well; he really isn't that bad.

Easy to march-block, moderate to kill, only useful as a small monster and an army organizer. If he was a unit upgrade for one Troll unit (like Karanak, Kouran, etc.), nobody would whine.

*ALSO: WoC armies don't usually bring Trolls for more reason than nice special choices... Though that is my reason...

**ALSO, ALSO: Its really only because Knights aren't core anymore. I used to take lots of Knights, Minotaurs, a Daemon Prince (which was far better than now) as standard. 7th ed blows.

N810
15-03-2010, 21:03
Throgg? Really? I'm like the only person I've ever heard of that actually uses Throgg. I use him because I want an army of Trolls for the sheer Trollishness of it all, but he really isn't that great.

If you pitted him against other heroes on their own that all cost 175pts, well... He probably wouldn't hold up very well then, either. At I2 and only a regen save, he doesn't last overlong.

The only thing that really makes him something horrible is his BSB-ness. But that doesn't so much make him horrid as warrant +25pts. I'd even say that 150 before that ability is fine as well; he really isn't that bad.

Easy to march-block, moderate to kill, only useful as a small monster and an army organizer. If he was a unit upgrade for one Troll unit (like Karanak, Kouran, etc.), nobody would whine.

Compare him to a naked Scar-vet it's around the same points... :eyebrows:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat160005&prodId=prod1690050

Witchblade
15-03-2010, 21:08
Compare him to a naked Scar-vet it's around the same points... :eyebrows:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat160005&prodId=prod1690050
No?

You can get 2 naked scar veterans and still have a few spare points.

Defender of Ulthuan
15-03-2010, 21:13
I thought naked Scar-Vets were closer to 110-120? Even so, being cold-blooded as a BSB more than makes up for the imbalance game-wise. Try comparing Throgg to someone who takes a similar role, like a Varghulf, a Hydra, or Skulltaker. Or a unit of Swordmasters. Or a few Warmachines.

N810
15-03-2010, 21:29
Sorry I must have been thinking of an old blood or an equiped scar-vet.

KalEf
16-03-2010, 01:15
Personally, I don't really see her as broken. I see the Black Guard Death Star as broken, and the ability to park her inside of that is where the problems arise.

Stick Hellebron inside a unit of 20 Witch Elves including a Hag BSB with the ASF banner and she's not nearly as scary as she is in the BG Death Star. There are plenty of ways to deal with her once you get her out of the Black Guard unit - even if she has ASF.

First: Great, I'm glad you agree she is not broken. Though very very killy. The whole point of my post was to offer credence to the un-Killableness of a character making it go from OP to broken.

Second: If you want to wax on about how good you think Black guard are, there is a forum for that.

Third: I guess your regular opponents wouldn't use your facing against you. I would WAY prefer MY opponents to have a unit that I could trick and flank/ rear attack. Than to deal with a unit that can charge/face in any direction, coupled with an opponent who knows how to control their visibility. For people who like to control there opponent's unit, there are a lot more options to control her when she has a front rear and flank. Plus, I love pulling frenzied characters out of non-frenzied units. ;)

btw the controlling visibility can be putting fast cav units around the back, maybe U-ing another unit of witch elves around the back and sides ect ect... I really don't want to spend days explaining this to anyone. I am sorry to sound like a jerk, but I'm expecting someone (thinking they are brilliant) saying they'd drop an eagle behind them :rolleyes: ... hopefully you have opponents that can handle this contingency.

KalEf
16-03-2010, 06:50
Compare him to a naked Scar-vet it's around the same points... :eyebrows:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat160005&prodId=prod1690050

I'm sure what you were getting at is, a naked old blood is about 150 (145 actually). That's very close in my book . I guess you DO miss out on +1ws, +2In, +4 armor but you GET... drum roll +2m, +1st, +1W, a vomit and a breath attack, regen +, immunity to (most) killing blow, and does not take up a lord spot. If you look up these bonuses, they are very expensive. :eek:

That being said, I like throgg. Though he is OP (more bonuses for the points) he is not broken at all. He can give you're whole army a different feel, and is killable. I wish more characters were closer to this. If they were, I'm sure they could have a big game impact, with out making people so crabby. ;)

Grey Mage
16-03-2010, 07:03
Of course, the Old-Blood has alot more potential... you pay for flexability and potential in this game. Sometimes we dont pay quite enough.

KalEf
16-03-2010, 07:40
Of course, the Old-Blood has alot more potential... you pay for flexability and potential in this game. Sometimes we dont pay quite enough.

ain't that the truth. lol

Now that I think about it, it is tough to beef stuff down. It would make way more sense to start with the 85 point scar vet and see what it would take points wise to beef it up with the standard, +2 wounds, regen +, +2 movement, +1 att, +1st, killing blow immunity, ect...

Dag
16-03-2010, 09:12
Kholek is the only op one that stands out solo.

heroes + deathstars isnt a good way to describe if a hero is entirely lame.
if they can effect multiple parts of the phase (m8, his shooting d6 str6 shots a turn at whoever he want, w/o rolling to hit) and he's a melee beast with 7 str 8's d3 wounds? i think? may be off but i think he's init 1 and his weapon doesnt count as a GW, so he doesnt strike last, just slowest?

but he's exactly what he should be, unapproachably tuff, he's a full grown shaggoth ffs

Eumerin
16-03-2010, 22:20
Third: I guess your regular opponents wouldn't use your facing against you. I would WAY prefer MY opponents to have a unit that I could trick and flank/ rear attack. Than to deal with a unit that can charge/face in any direction, coupled with an opponent who knows how to control their visibility. For people who like to control there opponent's unit, there are a lot more options to control her when she has a front rear and flank. Plus, I love pulling frenzied characters out of non-frenzied units. ;)


We don't use special characters at my local store, but I was in a DE vs. DE game that made me realize just how bad the Black Guard is. I freely admit that I screwed up in handling it, but that was because I didn't realize just how disgusting that particular formation is.

In short...

I was not running a Black Guard unit (and still don't to this day). My opponent was. Due to a series of really, really, really bad tactical moves on my opponent's part, he was literally down to just his cauldron and his Black Guard death star (which quickly moved out of range of the cauldron, btw) by the end of turn 3. I ended up losing nearly half of my army trying to kill that <censored> <censored> <censored> Black Guard unit, including at one point hitting it in both flanks with hydras on the same turn. I whittled the thing down, but I was unable to get rid of it.

Afterwards I belatedly realized that what I should have done was just to position one hydra on each flank and flame him to death. But it was my first time dealing with a BG death star.

Commissar JVE
17-03-2010, 03:13
has everyone forgotten about the sc that beat Archaon in combaT?!?!?!?!?!

GRIMGOR IROHIDE!!!!!!!!!!! :wtf:

Granted he needs to be in a unit of Black Orcs, but he is a killing machine!!!

ZigZagMan
17-03-2010, 05:24
Grimgor is indeed a buttwhooper, but unfortunately Kolek eats him for breakfast with a side order of black Orcs for dessert. and a bloodthirster... well lets not mention a bloodthirster.
Characters on flying tough terror causers ( and the bloodthirster of course) are whats really OP though.

Grey Mage
17-03-2010, 07:52
Eh, Kholeks cool... and I like his fluff so much Im going to try and base an army around his march to kislev, but frankly Im a bit more worried when I see Valkia fly onto the field.

20" charge, 6 Str 7 killing blow magic attacks, and if you survive that to strike back? -1 A on any such models.

Ouch.

Sambojin
17-03-2010, 08:10
Skarsnik, Warlord of the Eight Peaks (O+G)

This will probably suprise people, and fair enough he does take up a lord choice (so he's not really OP, but his rules are kind of broken). It really just depends on how you play his "Sneaky Schemes" special rule, but my vote goes in for Skarsnik. 205pts of "I know your army composition" goodness. Plus he is pretty good at other stuff too.

It depends on how much information (what unit you're rolling for etc. You can't have your opponent cheating now, can you?) you think has to come with the D6 rolls really. And with good rolling, you can not only know virtually everything you need to know about the opponent's army before deployment, you can mess up his deployment of it as well.

For the reasons why:
Sambojin's Mighty "Why you should take Skarsnik post".
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4487225&postcount=36

Like I said, it depends on the play-group and the conditions. But a rule like that, that you can't do a single thing about, that only requires someone to take the character to get, is pretty overpowered. If only he could be bothered to wear some decent armour.......

sulla
17-03-2010, 15:45
Afterwards I belatedly realized that what I should have done was just to position one hydra on each flank and flame him to death. But it was my first time dealing with a BG death star.Shoot them, chariot them or assassin them... Those are pretty good options too.

As for overpowerd characters, I would nominate;
Archaon (statistically never takes a wound from his 10 attack sword),
Kholek (just because of the lightning attack; too much strength for an unstoppable attack)
Villitch (superpowered casters in an army with such powerful knights and useful diverters...),
Kairos (a LoC who is even more resilient to shooting and even better at casting),
Skulltaker on juggernaut (criminally undercosted juggernaut).

I could add Thorek, but it's really the anvil that's overpowered, not the SC. Make it require LoS and there are no issues with him or it IMO. I'm sure slugtongue's unstoppable pre game attack and possibly Moonclaw's d3 stonethrower will get a bit of hate as more players start to face them and players get a few lucky rolls.

N810
17-03-2010, 16:32
Updated to refelect some new nominiations and opinions... ;)

Cartoon
17-03-2010, 18:44
Eh, Kholeks cool... and I like his fluff so much Im going to try and base an army around his march to kislev, but frankly Im a bit more worried when I see Valkia fly onto the field.

20" charge, 6 Str 7 killing blow magic attacks, and if you survive that to strike back? -1 A on any such models.

Ouch.

Actually Valkia does more than that. On any turn she charges she gets 6 Str 7 attacks that have killing blow. When she doesn't charge it's 6 Str 6 without killing blow. Not only does she have the -1 A shield, she also has the -1 Str armor, so enemies are hitting her at -1 A and Str. She also a bsb, allowing break tests to be re-rolled if the unit is within 12". She also allows EotG rolls to be re-rolled as long as she is on the table. Wrap all this up in a 2+ armor save and you've got yourself a pretty brutal character.

Edit - I forgot, her spear is also armor piercing regardless of whether or not she charges.

BigbyWolf
17-03-2010, 21:41
has everyone forgotten about the sc that beat Archaon in combaT?!?!?!?!?!

GRIMGOR IROHIDE!!!!!!!!!!! :wtf:

Granted he needs to be in a unit of Black Orcs, but he is a killing machine!!!

True, but a killing machine that can be avoided and flanked with relative ease. I would have loved it if he'd come with a boar option (a la Skulltaker and his juggy).

Sygerrik
17-03-2010, 22:30
Shoot them, chariot them or assassin them... Those are pretty good options too.

As for overpowerd characters, I would nominate;
Archaon (statistically never takes a wound from his 10 attack sword),
Kholek (just because of the lightning attack; too much strength for an unstoppable attack)
Villitch (superpowered casters in an army with such powerful knights and useful diverters...),
Kairos (a LoC who is even more resilient to shooting and even better at casting),
Skulltaker on juggernaut (criminally undercosted juggernaut).

I could add Thorek, but it's really the anvil that's overpowered, not the SC. Make it require LoS and there are no issues with him or it IMO. I'm sure slugtongue's unstoppable pre game attack and possibly Moonclaw's d3 stonethrower will get a bit of hate as more players start to face them and players get a few lucky rolls.

Vilitch?

Someone seriously nominated Vilitch? What's next, Konrad von Carstein? He can do lots of wounds! Look out!

He's a sorceror without any of the options that make sorcerors worth taking, and he doesn't have the combat stats to fight like he's clearly meant to.

Kholek is another one I don't understand. He's a Shaggoth that takes up a character slot. Compared to a standard Shaggoth with a GW he has:
+1 M
+2 WS
+1 T
+2 W
+2 A
+2 AS
A decent ranged attack, and wound multiplication. And he costs 320 points more (ie more than double). His AS doesn't mean much, since anything strong enough to wound him reliably is likely to either cancel his AS or reduce it significantly. And taking him in <3000 points means that you're unlikely to get Gateway off, which greatly reduces the threat of your magic.

Yes, he's dead killy, but he's nearly as vulnerable to war machines and other armor piercing shooting as an ordinary Shaggoth for more than double the price tag. And it's not as though the WoC list is lacking in dead killy characters. I'd much rather face Kholek than Archaon. For one thing, Cracks Call, Brass Orb or Pit of Shades (or Cloying Quagmire) is basically a death sentence for a 605 point model with no MR and I 1.

Phazael
17-03-2010, 22:49
The broken SCs are mostly focused in the DoC books. If I had to compile a list of the offenders, it would be:

Teclis- Still undisputed master of cheese
Thorek- Ancient Power with rerolls?
Anything in DoC, except Karnak and the wingless thirster- Probably the worst book for SCs
Shadowblade- Basically an autowin against any undead or wizard lord army.
Skarsnik- Screws with deployment and turns his entire army into fast cavalry
Conrad Von Carstien- Hits like a lord and is dirt cheap for a hero
Vilitch- Teclis Junior
KFC on a Dragon with Gar Maz- Stupidly undercosted for how hard he hits

KingNothing
17-03-2010, 23:11
Skulltaker is crazy. In my experience he can hold his own, when mounted on a juggernaught, with a decked out chaos lord.

Solasun
17-03-2010, 23:20
Anything in DoC, except Karnak and the wingless thirster- Probably the worst book for SCs
hits

Kugath Plaguefather and the Changeling would like a word.

BigbyWolf
17-03-2010, 23:53
Skarsnik- Screws with deployment and turns his entire army into fast cavalry

Only if the entire army is units of Night Goblins, and even then it's an entire army of M4 Ld5 fast cavalry that suffers from animosity.



Conrad Von Carstien- Hits like a lord and is dirt cheap for a hero.

Who has T4, 2 wounds and a 5+ Armour save and either stupidity on Ld6 or frenzy, and M5 means that if he's not with Direwolves or Cavalry he can be easily baited out of the unit. Trust me, I use him as the general of my VC army and he dies most of the time.


Vilitch- Teclis Junior

His ability is only really good if your opponent is trying (and failing) to cast a lot of spells. The guaranteed Gateway is nice, but 90% of the people I know who would play a MoT Sorc Lord would rather use a generic one instead of Vilitch.

I wouldn't say any of those three are broken.

Bodysnatcher
18-03-2010, 00:11
Kugath Plaguefather and the Changeling would like a word.

The changeling is nasty. Nothing funnier than turning a steam tank into a foil coated blancmange, or whupping a bloodthirster silly.

Devil Tree
18-03-2010, 00:24
Slugtongue looks pretty broken. Depending on how lucky you are with his plague ability, he has the potential of making back his points before the first turn. Even if he doesn't do anything, his special ability will probably spook your opponent's deployment and only costs about 40 to 50 points. Beyond that, he's still a 2nd level caster, and only uses up a hero slot.

sulla
18-03-2010, 01:06
Vilitch?

Someone seriously nominated Vilitch? What's next, Konrad von Carstein? He can do lots of wounds! Look out!

He's a sorceror without any of the options that make sorcerors worth taking, and he doesn't have the combat stats to fight like he's clearly meant to.

.Yes Villitch. He's a sorceror lord who you can only dispel with scrolls or else risk him being able to cast another spell straight away fuelled by your failure. He's a caster lord in an army with the skull of katam and the infernal puppet. He's a caster lord in an army where the basic special choice knights can outfight most enemy characters. He's a vulnerable sorceror on foot in an army with the best disruption fast cav in the game (MoS for the win!), he just has great synergy with any smartly built chaos army.

As for kholek's supposed vulnerability to war machines (or even magic), why would you not fill your army with characters and fast cav to hunt them freeing him to do what he does best. Sure, if you were stupid and played him in an all marauder army or something, he would be a challenge to get the best out of, but basically you build the rest of the army to help him and he just walks around zinging cav or lone characters with his lightning bolt and charging anything without SCR.

JayC707
18-03-2010, 01:16
What's so overpowered about a level 4 wizard who chooses any lore of magic, knows all the spells, casts with irresistible force with any double except on a miscast which he is immune to once each turn and has the ability to dispel and cause the wizard casting to permanently forget it on a d6 roll of the dice and each magic phase gets to roll d3 for additional power dice? :) ;) :P

Sygerrik
18-03-2010, 01:32
Yes Villitch. He's a sorceror lord who you can only dispel with scrolls or else risk him being able to cast another spell straight away fuelled by your failure. He's a caster lord in an army with the skull of katam and the infernal puppet. He's a caster lord in an army where the basic special choice knights can outfight most enemy characters. He's a vulnerable sorceror on foot in an army with the best disruption fast cav in the game (MoS for the win!), he just has great synergy with any smartly built chaos army.

As for kholek's supposed vulnerability to war machines (or even magic), why would you not fill your army with characters and fast cav to hunt them freeing him to do what he does best. Sure, if you were stupid and played him in an all marauder army or something, he would be a challenge to get the best out of, but basically you build the rest of the army to help him and he just walks around zinging cav or lone characters with his lightning bolt and charging anything without SCR.

A broken character is one who is not only extremely powerful, but is powerful for his points. That's why nobody lists Thorgrim Grudgebearer as broken, despite having badass special rules. Kholek is simply too expensive to do what you describe; hunting lone characters (many of which fly or are mounted and can therefore run circles around him) and acting as a living lightning battery. For >600 points you can do better than d6 S6 hits 83% of the time, especially since that other 17% of the time he becomes frenzied and can be led around by the nose.

Another aspect of a broken character is a character that doesn't need that extensive support structure you describe. Sure, Kholek is nasty if you have a bunch of hounds and marauders to take out all the many, many things that threaten him, but then so's a Chaos Lord on a Dragon. And the Chaos Lord is faster, more customizable, and cheaper (well, a bit more expensive with magic items, but at that point he's far more powerful as well).

As for Vilitch, he costs 105 points more than a regular Level 4 Tzeentch Sorceror Lord. What you are paying for is a minor and irrelevant stat increase and an admittedly powerful ability. What you are losing is all options, especially options to protect your vulnerable caster (Vilitch has what, 4+ armor and 6+ ward?). You can't even mount him on a barded steed for the 2+ save. What Vilitch can do is force your opponent to play a bit more conservatively with his magic.

Basically, he's a wizard with no mount options and a unique 100+ point ability that can be countered by any player of moderate skill. I would never pay 100 points for an ability that's not even guaranteed to have an effect during any given game (especially if your opponent is either playing very magic-light, or simply trying harder to get fewer spells off rather than gambling on lots of moderate casting values). I don't think most generals would, either.

Jeffery
18-03-2010, 06:50
hi to every one

Lord Inquisitor
18-03-2010, 21:15
For >600 points you can do better than d6 S6 hits 83% of the time, especially since that other 17% of the time he becomes frenzied and can be led around by the nose.
I wouldn't say he's broken, but that automatically hitting D6 S6 with no maximum range from a large target is brutal. Without that he's just a combat character, but his lightning attack is just powerful enough that he can't be ignored, even if he isn't in combat. Between that and his massive combat capabilities, he's able to distract the enemy slightly more than his points value deserves. No Ward to protect him from cannons, but his armour will protect him from massed poisoned blowpipe fire. It depends on the army you're facing, but I've seen him do very well in a tournament setting.

So which characters would you say are "broken" then by your criteria?

Sygerrik
18-03-2010, 23:05
I wouldn't say he's broken, but that automatically hitting D6 S6 with no maximum range from a large target is brutal. Without that he's just a combat character, but his lightning attack is just powerful enough that he can't be ignored, even if he isn't in combat. Between that and his massive combat capabilities, he's able to distract the enemy slightly more than his points value deserves. No Ward to protect him from cannons, but his armour will protect him from massed poisoned blowpipe fire. It depends on the army you're facing, but I've seen him do very well in a tournament setting.

So which characters would you say are "broken" then by your criteria?

Thorek pre-nerf, Masque, Teclis, Archaon, Kairos, Scribes, Skulltaker on a Juggernaut. All of which have been said. These are characters that are either severely undercosted (Masque, Scribes, Skulltaker), have far-reaching effects that are very hard if not impossible to stop or counter (Thorek, Masque, Scribes), are simply so powerful that there's not much that can be done to match them (Teclis, Archaon, Kairos), or are the key components in a list that is far too powerful (Thorek, Scribes, Masque).

I am not saying Kholek is a bad character. I don't think he's broken because he's not undercosted, his one uncounterable effect isn't significant enough to be worth buying him just to take, he's not killy enough to stand out in the WoC list, and he doesn't bring anything to the table that fundamentally alters the way the game is played. I haven't faced every SC in every book, so my opinion is in no way authoritative or complete, but these are the characters that I feel are too powerful.

Kholek is like Caradryan, Queek or Grimgor. They're all good characters, they're all pretty powerful, they're all worth taking for their points, but none of them really breaks the game.

Marlow
24-06-2010, 18:15
So does 8th Ed rules look like it is making any of these better (or worse) for general play?

WindsorSpitfire
24-06-2010, 18:37
the only special character (or any troop type of any kind) that ive had to refuse to play against was in a 4k game vs my friends warriors of chaos and i played my skaven and i told him outright when i made my army list that i would not play if he used that sorceror vilitich the cursling (something like that). his ability to take the failed dice from a miscast as his own, and failed dispell dice as his own in a huge game like that makes him ridiculous. i dont think characters should get better the larger a game gets. poor design imo, but than again most people dont play huge games as thier standard game size.

instead my friend took both archeon and a lord on a dragon, i had no problem with those selections, and despite turn 1 warp lightning cannon taking 3 wounds off archeon, we ended up in a really fun game that ended as a draw.

N810
24-06-2010, 18:42
Hmm...

well some of these characters probaly have a regen and a ward save...
in 8th they will only be able to use one of them, so thats a slight nerf.
I think the lord and hero % cap could keep a lot of the wilder, more
expensive SC's restricted to larger games.

Malorian
24-06-2010, 18:44
Kroak should be pretty good now (as long as you are playing at least a 2400 game). Adding his level to his spell means he can get off those big ones a lot easier.

knightwire
24-06-2010, 18:48
So does 8th Ed rules look like it is making any of these better (or worse) for general play?

I think Teclis may be as good or better in 8e. Some of the new magic spells are downright hellish and he will be an absolute terror with his IF on doubles ability.

There are better options to counter him in 8e as well... but still I would rate it at this point (with only one test game in) as a net gain for the pointing eared wimp.

I mainly only use Orc SCs other than HE one's, and so far I haven't seen anything that's an issue with them. (or the rest of the HE SCs)

Eumerin
24-06-2010, 18:53
I'm curious about how Malekith's magic resistance will work. One of his items provides a considerable MR bonus, and if a spell cast on him is dispelled then it rebounds back at the caster. The idea is that the MR bonus helps you dispel the spell and send it back at the caster. But since MR is now being changed to a ward save against magic, it doesn't work quite the same.

I'm curious how this will affect the "rebound" ability - will it continue to be triggered by dispels (which now aren't helped by his MR). Or will it now be affected by something else - for instance if he successfully passes his ward save?

Emeraldw
24-06-2010, 18:56
I think Teclis may be as good or better in 8e. Some of the new magic spells are downright hellish and he will be an absolute terror with his IF on doubles ability.

There are better options to counter him in 8e as well... but still I would rate it at this point (with only one test game in) as a net gain for the pointing eared wimp.

I mainly only use Orc SCs other than HE one's, and so far I haven't seen anything that's an issue with them. (or the rest of the HE SCs)

Teclis I think is both better and not in 8th.

Pros:
-better basic lores
-D3 power dice help mitigate bad Power Dice rolls
-D3 Dispel dice is the same
-Ignoring First Miscast a Turn (Big in 8th!)
-Knowing the full lore, not as important in 8th where you can choose spells on equal rolls but it is nice to know you have all the options of the lore.

Cons:
-No wiping out ranks means he is open to attack all the time. T2, no save will drop QUICK.
-Even though he has a lot of Power Dice, the spells you will cast less spells per turn so he isn't going to be pumping spells all game.
-Speed of getting to the front line is faster in 8th so he won't get as many turns to blow you up or buff potentially. Look also to the first point.
-Dispel Scrolls can't be spammed but the effects of the scrolls can be devastating. Turning him into a frog for a turn or two pretty much eliminates him from the game if you get into combat fast enough.

I think he is our best caster in high elves and his strengths are brought out very nicely in 8th. But it also emphasizes his weaknesses a lot too.

I wouldn't be quick to call him OP in 8th till we get a lot more games in.

Malorian
24-06-2010, 18:56
I'm curious about how Malekith's magic resistance will work. One of his items provides a considerable MR bonus, and if a spell cast on him is dispelled then it rebounds back at the caster. The idea is that the MR bonus helps you dispel the spell and send it back at the caster. But since MR is now being changed to a ward save against magic, it doesn't work quite the same.

I'm curious how this will affect the "rebound" ability - will it continue to be triggered by dispels (which now aren't helped by his MR). Or will it now be affected by something else - for instance if he successfully passes his ward save?

If you dispel then it rebounds. You just have to do it without the MR bonus.

Eumerin
24-06-2010, 19:00
-No wiping out ranks means he is open to attack all the time. T2, no save will drop QUICK.

Come to think of it, Hellebron just took a big hit as well. Sure, she'll still wipe out the front rank on her own and with a little luck a second rank as well. And her initiative will mean that she nearly always attacks first. But given her 'glass cannon' nature, her opponents would be foolish not to direct every single attack that they can at her.



If you dispel then it rebounds. You just have to do it without the MR bonus.

I agree that's probably the way that it will work. But there's a chance that they'll change it.

HeroFox
24-06-2010, 19:05
I'm not calling anything OP until we have a solid metagame in place.

There's no point to this thread right now because EVERYTHING is theoryhammer without games and the army FAQs.

Emeraldw
24-06-2010, 21:06
I'm not calling anything OP until we have a solid metagame in place.

There's no point to this thread right now because EVERYTHING is theoryhammer without games and the army FAQs.

Sure but Theoryhammer has its place. I just outlined above why Teclis looks to be awesome in 8th. Thats certainly worthy of discussion. I also outlined why he might be a points sink.

HeroFox
24-06-2010, 21:31
Sure but Theoryhammer has its place. I just outlined above why Teclis looks to be awesome in 8th. Thats certainly worthy of discussion. I also outlined why he might be a points sink.

Until we get FAQ'd in the opposite direction, then our theoryhammer would fall apart.

OK, I'll play that game. For Teclis as well, since I play High Elves primarily.

Pros:
- Both him and the Book of Hoeth will succeed IF on any doubles that reaches the casting value.
- If Teclis rolls double 6s, it will cause a IF and he gets to ignore his first miscast because of Warhelm of Saphery.
- Teclis gives +D3 PD and DD, so very helpful for our Magic phases.
- He also carries a Scroll of Hoeth, which is the only Archmage in the game that can wield a monster item like Book of Hoeth and retain a scroll.

Cons:
- Random charges means you have no idea if your Teclis is in danger or not. I can estimate the ranges, but you'll never know when that Dwarf Warrior squad charges out 15" due to boxcars and mauls Teclis in the face. T2 and 3W with NO saves of any kind is abysmal, and highly risky. Even more risky than last edition.
- There's answers to Teclis via scrolls that everyone can take. Before, when IF goes off, people cry and moan that they're doom. Now when a spell goes off, you can possibly kill Teclis or disable him right off the bat.
- 475 points is a almost a full quarter of a 2k list.
- If Teclis miscasts again on his turn, the miscast table got hell of a lot worse.

I'd say if everything remains the same, he has both increased in value and decreased in 8th. With all matters considered, he's one of the biggest gambles in SCs right now.

Someone like Caradryan, on the other hand, go buffed majorly. He has a 4+ Ward, causes fear, has MR3 (gives units 4+ ward vs magic spells), and still retains his awesome stats and ASF. No idea what they're going to do with his Phoenix Blade aside from the fact that its S5 Flaming. Maybe D3 wounds to cavalry+ size models.

Wurrzog da Orcy Tomb King
24-06-2010, 21:52
I don't know whether to be happy or sad that no lizardmen Special characters made the list...:eyebrows:

necroncell2131
24-06-2010, 21:53
Blue scribes are now better then ever in 8th.

since power dice are so random getting more dice from any source is a great boost.

Besides using all your power dice on other spells and getting a free random spell that are now better thanks to the upgraded lores.

the unpredictability of the spells is a downer but if you keep going for the lores with primarily buff spells then you minimize the waste.

Skyros
24-06-2010, 22:09
Thorek pre-nerf, Masque, Teclis, Archaon, Kairos, Scribes, Skulltaker on a Juggernaut. All of which have been said. These are characters that are either severely undercosted (Masque, Scribes, Skulltaker), have far-reaching effects that are very hard if not impossible to stop or counter (Thorek, Masque, Scribes), are simply so powerful that there's not much that can be done to match them (Teclis, Archaon, Kairos), or are the key components in a list that is far too powerful (Thorek, Scribes, Masque).

I am not saying Kholek is a bad character. I don't think he's broken because he's not undercosted, his one uncounterable effect isn't significant enough to be worth buying him just to take, he's not killy enough to stand out in the WoC list, and he doesn't bring anything to the table that fundamentally alters the way the game is played. I haven't faced every SC in every book, so my opinion is in no way authoritative or complete, but these are the characters that I feel are too powerful.

Kholek is like Caradryan, Queek or Grimgor. They're all good characters, they're all pretty powerful, they're all worth taking for their points, but none of them really breaks the game.

I pretty much have to agree with this post in it's entirety.

To be 'broken' special characters either have to be really undercosted, or undercosted and very hard to counter. Only a handful fall into that category.

Most of the time I look at a special character and he seems to be about the same points it would take to build such a character from scratch - and often he doesn't have the 'optimal' equipment.

HeroFox
24-06-2010, 22:17
I don't know whether to be happy or sad that no lizardmen Special characters made the list...:eyebrows:

Even though Kroak got better, I would say that no Lizard SCs are looking "too good" still.

This is a good thing imo. No one can really call you out for having SCs on the field.

N810
24-06-2010, 22:20
mostly because they are crazy expensive. :p

kaintxu
24-06-2010, 22:23
but scribes ability to cast random spells sux since its like a bound spell so no good now

madden
24-06-2010, 22:48
Slug tounges ability is not as potent now as it seems units are getting larger but it is still good for cannon/lone character killing if you can roll good. But his down side is only wild or death magic where as the beast magic is optimal for them and the increase in flaming items will hurt him as his save is regen we will have to see how things go.

tartanjames
24-06-2010, 23:21
No mention of galrauch two breath weapons level 4 mage terror fly 616pts ?? i mean with the new rules for 8th this is a kick A** special char

madden
24-06-2010, 23:29
Except that fly is now 10" and breath weapons are one use only, and terror works diffently
see the relavent thead as I can't remember the details.

Stronginthearm
25-06-2010, 00:27
Eh some people will call you out on anything, I once got complaints for bringing Bugman, it doesnt need to make sense to draw fire

Don Zeko
25-06-2010, 00:41
I find it pretty interesting that the DE and VC books have nicely balanced special characters that do neat stuff your normal characters can't without being OP, while the DoC book's special character selection, like the rest of the list, is a travesty.

Eumerin
25-06-2010, 01:01
Except that fly is now 10" and breath weapons are one use only, and terror works diffently
see the relavent thead as I can't remember the details.

You now only take a Terror test when charged, but being forced to take a Terror test no longer makes you immune to further Terror tests later in the game.

Tomalock
25-06-2010, 01:57
The Fey Enchantress with the lore of life is a spellcasting beast in 8th. +6 casting with throne of vies up? Good luck stopping her without double 6s.

Alltaken
25-06-2010, 03:01
I propose Tetto Ekko, he's gonna be a nasty caster

Kerill
25-06-2010, 05:11
Until we get FAQ'd in the opposite direction, then our theoryhammer would fall apart.

OK, I'll play that game. For Teclis as well, since I play High Elves primarily.

Pros:
- Both him and the Book of Hoeth will succeed IF on any doubles that reaches the casting value.
- If Teclis rolls double 6s, it will cause a IF and he gets to ignore his first miscast because of Warhelm of Saphery.
- Teclis gives +D3 PD and DD, so very helpful for our Magic phases.
- He also carries a Scroll of Hoeth, which is the only Archmage in the game that can wield a monster item like Book of Hoeth and retain a scroll.

Cons:
- Random charges means you have no idea if your Teclis is in danger or not. I can estimate the ranges, but you'll never know when that Dwarf Warrior squad charges out 15" due to boxcars and mauls Teclis in the face. T2 and 3W with NO saves of any kind is abysmal, and highly risky. Even more risky than last edition.
- There's answers to Teclis via scrolls that everyone can take. Before, when IF goes off, people cry and moan that they're doom. Now when a spell goes off, you can possibly kill Teclis or disable him right off the bat.
- 475 points is a almost a full quarter of a 2k list.
- If Teclis miscasts again on his turn, the miscast table got hell of a lot worse.

I'd say if everything remains the same, he has both increased in value and decreased in 8th. With all matters considered, he's one of the biggest gambles in SCs right now.

Someone like Caradryan, on the other hand, go buffed majorly. He has a 4+ Ward, causes fear, has MR3 (gives units 4+ ward vs magic spells), and still retains his awesome stats and ASF. No idea what they're going to do with his Phoenix Blade aside from the fact that its S5 Flaming. Maybe D3 wounds to cavalry+ size models.

I think you are exaggerating the cons and underestimating and missing some of the pros.

1) As you mentioned Teclis will still cast successfully and irresistably even on a miscast so there is even less hope that his spells won't go through.
2) Teclis has more dice to play with than he ever had before. 7th edition ith the banner backing him as well he had an average of 8PD to play with meaning 1 IF high level spell and one mid level spell with only about 50% chance for IF. In 8th edition with the banner (and post FAQ almost certainly the jewel of dusk) means that most of the time he will have 11-12PD to play with. This is a huge boost in general and even better in 8th due to:
3) MUCH more powerful spells than before in the basic lores and with 12PD we are looking at probably 2 IF spells per turn. I won't go into the potential damage 2 IF spells from the new lore spells will cause. Also in 8th he is far more likely to reach every casting value, even with a double 1 in there. Whilst this is true for all mages in 8th, they aren't casting IF. And not every army will have a level 4 mage (although more of them probably will than 7th)
4) As a result in 8th he is even more of a one man magic phase than in 7th. This is true also in magic defence. Even with just Teclis you now have 7dd on average compared to 6 in 7th. His +5 to dispel makes even 1 extra dispel die than before even more powerful. Without Teclis HE opponents can at least try to get some spells in in retaliation. With a typical 8th edition (annulian crystal being a must-take) Your opponent will have 6PD (average) against 8DD with +5 to dispel.
5) As you mentioned he has a destroy scroll but remember this is more useful in 8th than 7th since there will be fewer casters in magic reliant armies due to the changes in generating PD. Not the biggest problm here but worth mentioning none the less.
6) Teclis has Ld10, unlike all the other archmage options giving you max possible Leadership for your army without the need for a Prince.

As to your cons:
1) You don't need to estimate their potential charge range, you can measure it at any time you want. Also the increased range potential of many spells means that he won't always need to be within 24" so the 2.5" backward shuffle or starting further back will be more viable. Second if he is in his standard position from 7th (on the corner of 7/8 wide white lions) then those dwarf warriors will (even with support attacks) be getting 2 attacks against him, maybe 4 if they have a wider than normal unit. That's less than 1 wound against him with 2 attacks, 1.6 wounds with 4 attacks. If they are GW armed dwarves then Teclis' T2 compared to a normal archmages T3 is entirely besides the point- equally squishy. Not only that great eagles might not be able to march block easily but they can still cause failed charges which for infantry means D6" forward per turn, same for cavalry. Those infantry are still going to take a long time to get into contact. For cavalry with the white lions in 2 or more ranks doubling their number of (now re-rollable) ASF attacks thats 5 dead 1+ save cavalry before they can strike compared to 2 before so unless the heavy cavalry are a huge unit no-one will be able to attack Teclis on the corner. Thus he is far safer from cavalry elements. Also, at the end of the day, if a huge unit of cavalry or infantry gets to within charging distance of the white lions, Teclis can just move to that unit of archers or shadow warriors just behind them and be perfectly safe until the white lions get wiped out- not an easy proposition in itself. So in fact Teclis is probably safer than he was in 7th edition.
2) 475 points has ALWAYS been a bargain for Teclis. Both in offence and defence in 7th he was superior to 600+ points of mages/archmages. Various costing have been done, includin on ulthuan.net and he is very cheap for what he does. Level 4 Archmage with book of hoeth- 360 points, +D3 PD 50 points +D3 dispel dice 50 points, seerstaff: 30 points, destroy scroll: 50 points, Ignore first miscast every turn 50 points (by my reckoning) sword of Teclis worth a lot (probably 75 points, maybe more) but very little on a 1A model who avoids combat, maybe 5/10 points. Total: 595 points. And that doesn't take into account the fact that having these abilities together (know all lore and IF on any double) is a lot better than having them seperate.
3) There are two scrolls here- the frog scroll which can stop Teclis after his first spell this turn, but he is very likely to be back at full speed next turn, and that is assuming he fails to roll under his level in the first case. So basically not very likely to work. The other is the scroll of reaction which is undoubtedly very good against Teclis with a reasonable chance to kill him if he throws 5/6 dice at a spell. BUT against most armies this scroll is actually fairly poor. The dangers of the new miscasting table are such that most lord level casters are going to be leery of going over 3 dice so in general it isn't that good an item. Even less useful since some mages will also be running around with ward saves. So if your group plays tailored lists then yes Teclis is going to have to be careful but generally the truly dangerous item is unlikely to ever get him because it isn't going to be that common.
4) The chance of him miscasting twice per turn is absolutely tiny. Its 18% chance to miscast on 5 dice each spell, for two spells on 5 dice is 3-4%. But even if you are worried about that there is an easy option- take lore of life, throw 5/6 dice at throne of vines and then you have a 2+ save against any further miscasts. Easy peasy. Not only that though all but one of the other spells in the lore will be boosted. Including the spell that brings your models back to life so even if he still manages to miscast (now under 1% chance and depending on rumours for throne of vines maybe about 0.16 %) he can raise some of those dead white lions back. A further aside regarding the new miscast table re: Teclis. The chance of Teclis dying on a miscast is now much lower than before and for players going up against Teclis, a bunch of dead white lions is far far less important than Teclis going up in smoke.

Finally we have to consider the reason why Teclis and Thorek are the most hated SC's in 7th edition (and why gateway and S11/12 is the most hated spell and justifiably so)- its because there is absolutely nothing your opponent can do for the first few turns and, realistically speaking, in the later turns its still incredibly hard to actually kill Teclis in his MR3 stubborn ASF S6 stubborn unit immune to fear and terror with bsb and ASF GW or Thorek in his forest behind a hill in a far corner. With Thorek there is no chance to dispel so you are hoping for the tiny chance that the anvil blows up. Playing against Teclis I've had 6DD and 2 scrolls going into a magic phase in my all comers list (i.e. a very decent magic defence in 7th) and at the end of the phase I still had 6DD and 2 scrolls but two fewer units (350 points worth). No if I had got to roll those 6DD dice at spells and rolled 1 every time it wouldn't be anywhere near as frustrating as simply never being able to use them.

Now this isn't an anti HE rant, HE were the first army I ever collected and I have over 6000 points of them (although I seldom get to play them since when I moved country I@C- the worst rule in the game ever- was in force and I hated it so much I chose to bring chaos instead). In 5th edition Teclis came to almost every battle, but even in his 5th edition herohammer days he was a lot less powerful than now (and more expensive- 625 points but then everything was more expensive then and my HE could reach 10,000 points). In some ways there is a problem in that in the fluff Teclis is a mighty spellcaster so in the game you would like to see it too. But the IF mechanic and game balance means he is a bit too much in 7th and is even stronger in 8th so...

Hopefully they will make him powerful again in the next HE book without making him so frustrating for the opponent. +6 to cast and can cast again even if he fails his roll on a 1 or 2 instead of IF for example.

Before I leave the subject of Teclis, I'd also like to point out that some people (no-one in this thread) may attempt to use the "armybook trumps rulebook" rule to insist that Teclis can choose his lore every game instead of when the roster is made. Just fair warning to get your backhand slap ready.

For 8th I think IN GENERAL casty SC's have got better whilst fighty ones have got worse. Kairos Dreamweaver is even nastier in 8th since his spell selection is much better now and like Teclis has more dice to play with and with+6 to castis a lot more likely to get spells off. Also his re-roll will be very useful to potentiall allow 1 dice casting without too much risk of not being able to cast further spells. He can also now heal himself and gets D6 S5 thunderous stomp attacks in combat. Blue scribes I think are weaker but still a very good choice. Villitch is better, maybe to the point of Op'd, Manfred is better (and can now have the book of ashur but is still fairly well balanced I think). Stubborn means that fighty characters that could take down whole units are less effective due to stubborn infantry (archaon), more infantry relative to cavalry and some of them have lost a save (Tyrion), had their armour save reduced (Skulltaker, still silly good though) or can now be picked out by artillery (Archaon, Tyrion, Skulltaker on Jugger) or if mounted on horse/steed will no longer be able to lurk about in infantry units so safely (lots of these). There are exceptions, especially to those fighty characters with special rules- Caradryan was mentioned earlier (although Korhil has got much worse) and I think Throgg from WOC is now definitely in the overpowered range- 3D6 S5 magical autohits with no armour save and another S5 stomp afterwards in one phase is just silly. The fact he isn't so useful with infantry is a very minor caveat.

Galruch has got better I agree but now he is more in the (for larger games since he's 616 points) "probably worth taking" category rather than the "overpowered" category.

Taking overpowerd characters is of course up to personal choice, style of play and the group you are in, but people need to recognize that with the move to 8th some already silly characters have got even better and some "good" characters are now overpowered and whether or not your gaming group would enjoy having such inflicted on them should ideally be worthy of consideration.

HeroFox
25-06-2010, 05:31
You just wrote the longest Teclis rant I've ever seen on Warseer, all whine threads included. Congrats man!

Teclis is one of the reasons I picked High Elves back in 6th, and he wasn't even that great. I was happy the SC selections for HE got better in 7th Ed; Korhil, Caradryan and Teclis are all very cost effective and really good choices. They bring out the character of the HE army unlike other armies and I love that.

To talk about my point #1 briefly, in 7th Ed, I know when my Teclis was safe and when he wasn't. Hell, in times of peril, I would even run him of foot out of a unit so the enemy wouldn't get a kill on him. This is a sign of good play. In 8th, there's no way I can eyeball random charges. I can judge charge range and distance to an inch, but that's because I've been wargaming for a long, long time. I assume you are the same nature. Now that Dwarves have a 5-15" range of random charges, I cannot analyze the battlefield as I could in the past. Not to mention, the LOS! rule for characters outside the unit and fact that so many indirect weapons exist, the -1 for shooting at lone characters are gone, all threaten Teclis running out of units.

His cost, certainly, I agree with your points. I don't agree with your 75 point no armor save sword on a combat weenie, but I'd say he's one of the most cost effective lord/hero choices in the game. Like I said many times on other gaming forums and in guides that I've written, Teclis is superior to the Lv.4 Archmage by miles and I encourage players to take him. Why? Because I've been a competitive gamer for ages, in FPS, RTS, MMO, Tabletop. I'm all about cost effective and min-maxing in any game where resources, minerals, points is limited and finite. Do not confuse this for WAAC though. I would never play pink ponies even if they were the most cost effective unit in my book.

An example of a guide I wrote for the High Elf community here (http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=29517).

If you feel that a MR3 (Caradryan) S6 Stubborn (White Lions) BSB (Noble) yielding deathstar unit is a great way to deliver Teclis, then so be it. But like all deathstar class units, there's an answer. Most of it answers for itself because of the massive point sink that unit is in.

Kerill
25-06-2010, 05:42
A rant suggests raving without reason, that post is long mate because I've stated the reasons, including quite a few things that you neglected to mention in your "balanced" Teclis summary.

If you actually read my post carefully you will see I did state his sword was only worth 5-10 points and costed it as such in the 595 points Rather than 670 points.

I'm a bit confused though because here you are happy to go for the WAAC (certainly terms of roster building if not necessarily using loaded dice etc. in games) option but in the ring of hotek thread you seem to be complaining its powerful?

Maybe I've missed something.

HeroFox
25-06-2010, 05:49
That's because the Ring of Hotek has the greatest yield to cost ratio in the game.

So balance wise, that's a bigger concern than Teclis.

Don Zeko
25-06-2010, 06:01
That's because the Ring of Hotek has the greatest yield to cost ratio in the game.

So balance wise, that's a bigger concern than Teclis.

I dunno about that, dude. Even with a magic heavy list, I'd much rather fight DE with the ring than a phoenix guard deathstar with korhil, teclis, and a BSB*. The ring's more broken than any one thing in there, but the ring's presence doesn't make an army a cheesefest on its own, while a korhil + teclis deathstar army is, by definition, filthy.

*Which someone actually brought to a tournament in my area lately. He got his just desserts, though. Narrowly missed best general, and he wasn't even close on best overall thanks to his abysmal comp scores.

Kerill
25-06-2010, 06:03
Well I'd be putting them on level pegging. And the ring, for all its undoubted silliness (and particularly against the fairly magic heavy that you seem to and I play) and overpoweredness is a defensive rather than offensive item. It is made worse due to the other silly things used in conjunction with it in many lists in 7th, Teclis doesn't need that level of support.

Don't get me wrong I've played against Teclis in 7th and I'll play against him again in 8th if someone fields him since it is legal, same with the ring. Its a challenge, but it does wind me up when people try to claim such things are not overpowered because it is their army.

My WOC lord throws gateway around but I would really feel a lot better about the spell if GW changed it to D6+4 like bolt of change or simply capped it at S10. Some opponents can accept the autodestruction rule, but for others the sheer helplessness against it can spoil their enjoyment of the game. Of course if it was a deathstar of some kind I would shed few tears over that.

HeroFox
25-06-2010, 06:09
So what's stopping you from just charging everything into that Deathstar?

Let's say that's a unit of 30 PG w/ Banner of Sorcery, BSB with Battle Banner, Korhil and Teclis. That's roughly a ~1300 unit. Let's add max cheese and throw in 4x RBTs cause I'm a ****** and add in min core 2x10 Archers.

Should put you close to ~2K points in that alone in 7th Ed. (and not even playable in 8th because of all the restrictions)

That's not even an army man. Most balanced Skaven lists can lol all over that. A good TK list can will his way all over the place into that. Any army with bodies can crap all over that. Thorek and his gunline craps on that like no other. 7th Ed. Daemons just eats that for breakfast.

It's a poor list with very limited good matchups and tons of bad ones. It's also max cheese and will win you no friends.

In 2 turns and full march, you'll be in his face and negating most of Teclis' magic potential. Any won combats or any flankers or flyers will kill Teclis if he leaves that unit. If he stays in that unit, he's also dead.

I've been there, played that list. Any good general will make you eat it quick.

Anyways dudes, been a pleasure discussing the finer points of gaming with good, smart people. I gotta write more articles on Magic and HE in 8th Ed. @Kerill and Don Zeko, check out my blog on the latest dirty tricks we can do with our Elves ;) I bet you'll find that 1+ armor save White Lions vs. shooting extra fun.

Stronginthearm
25-06-2010, 06:17
You just wrote the longest Teclis rant I've ever seen on Warseer, all whine threads included. Congrats man!.

Well ya the post would be long, if he had just put down "Teclis is Broken and for cheese WAACers" he would have been flamed, now nobody bothers to read it and everybody is happy

HeroFox
25-06-2010, 06:24
Well ya the post would be long, if he had just put down "Teclis is Broken and for cheese WAACers" he would have been flamed, now nobody bothers to read it and everybody is happy

Don't get me wrong, I loved his post.

"Truly Teclis is one of those legendary heroes whose actions shape the game (world)."

Kerill
25-06-2010, 06:36
Sadly mate your website is blocked in China. What have you been up to ;)?

And the single deathstar you mentioned is easier to deal with than the 18 Whitelion+cardryan deathstar that leaves points over for the rest of the army.

Lets hope all the FAQS and erratas are out on time for everyone ;)

Don Zeko
25-06-2010, 06:42
@Kerill and Don Zeko, check out my blog on the latest dirty tricks we can do with our Elves ;) I bet you'll find that 1+ armor save White Lions vs. shooting extra fun.

Our elves? I roll with Druchii, dude. Don't make me laugh at your weakling militia.

Kidding aside, thanks for the compliments. You've clearly done an awful lot of thinking about the finer points of the game, and you write about it well. PM me if you're ever in North Carolina and are looking for a game.

Wednesday Friday Addams
25-06-2010, 06:44
Our elves? I roll with Druchii, dude. Don't make me laugh at your weakling militia.

Kidding aside, thanks for the compliments. You've clearly done an awful lot of thinking about the finer points of the game, and you write about it well. PM me if you're ever in North Carolina and are looking for a game.

Doesn't that sort of reflect badly on the Druchii then?

Kayosiv
25-06-2010, 09:17
Slugtongue (Beasts)

He needs to be on the list. He can effectively gain his points back before the game even starts with startling reliability. This is coupled with the fact that when you consider his being a level 2 wizard (about 100 points) and having regeneration (about 50 points) and poisoned attacks (about 10 points) he gets it for a cost of almost nothing.

Kholek is balanced in my opinion. At 600+ points and being unable to fly, he needs a shooting ability to be viable. I have fought against him several times, and while he is devastating, he also rarely earns back more than his 600 point cost that is trapped in one model. That and he is imitative 1 so in 8th edition most everyone will get a stab at him before they die.

Har666
25-06-2010, 09:20
I've seen Kolek shoot and kill a Tomb King's Heirophant in the first turn of the game (before the TK guy had a chance to move). TK's crumbling from Turn 1 lol.

I suppose it id the TK guy's fault for not having his most important character in a unit

Kayosiv
25-06-2010, 09:33
I've seen Kholek killed on turn one by a cannon and 2 bolt throwers too, it happens.

DaemonReign
29-06-2010, 17:15
We just don't play with them. No Special Characters. Kid's stuff, really. The rules are all there for making your very own combos. Oh... speaking of which.. The Daemon Prince should cost 250 pts vanilla.

N810
29-06-2010, 17:42
While Teko Eko will be more powerfull,
he is still a frail skink priest.
if they erata/faq his ability to get IF on doubles
to every turn instead of just one...
he might be a contender...

Realx Kerill,
In case you hadn't noticed Teclis is on the Over Powered list on the first post.
although I think the Slann in 8th edition may give him some trouble,
with their strong anti-magic items and +1 casting dice per spell.

Slugtongue has been on and off the list several times,
I think he might be on the watch list now.

Ps. Lets try and keep the thread on track and civil so the big bad robot doesn't show up. ;)

Stronginthearm
29-06-2010, 22:54
We just don't play with them. No Special Characters. Kid's stuff, really. The rules are all there for making your very own combos. Oh... speaking of which.. The Daemon Prince should cost 250 pts vanilla.

SC are there for fluff, for people who like the idea of Bugman going head to head with Skarsnik, and im sorry there are no rules for Archeons sword, no matter how cheesey you think it is, or Mannfreds magicyness, or Grimgors pure rage at the world, thats why they are Special characters

Kerill
30-06-2010, 03:01
Realx Kerill,
In case you hadn't noticed Teclis is on the Over Powered list on the first post.


First post is for 7th mate, and I don't think things have got uncivil enough at any point to worry about mods.

LordoftheBrassThrone
19-10-2010, 13:15
THROGG!THROGG!THROGG!THROGG!THROGG!THROGG! all the way. He killed a HPA in 1 turn for me! Well, technically 2 combats, but 1 game turn ;) In 1 combat he can potentially unleash 5 attacks at WS5 S6, then 12 auto hits at S5 no save. Against knights he will butcher (not kill, butcher :P) a whole unit in 1 turn quite happily

N810
19-10-2010, 13:20
So did you guys want to resurect this again for 8th ?

Lorcryst
19-10-2010, 13:38
My opinion hasn't changed with the new edition : all Special Characters break the rules, some of them to the point of being unfair and totally unfun for the opponent ... my most hated SC is still Teclis.

Davo
19-10-2010, 14:02
So how do you guys think that Malagor rates? I never use special characters so have no idea but was recently given his model as a gift. Is he cheesy? A bit rubbish? Should I just use him as a Great Bray Shaman?

Tregar
19-10-2010, 20:24
Sadly too many people still dogmatically believe ALL special characters are broken, so I would make lists with both him (for when you play open-minded opponents) and a more general list to take on anyone.

Of course some special characters are broken. Teclis is broken because of a duff game mechanic that also results in other lesser-yet-still-broken results (Book of Hoeth/Power Scroll). If you simply removed all "IF on doubles" items from the game, you'd not have to worry about much else.

N810
19-10-2010, 20:30
My opinion hasn't changed with the new edition : all Special Characters break the rules, some of them to the point of being unfair and totally unfun for the opponent ... my most hated SC is still Teclis.

apearently you havent looked at the sad Lizardmen characters...
they are all overpriced and usualy you can do about the same or
better job with a generic lizardmen lord or hero.
On top of that some of them got the neft bat in 8th for no reason at all. :wtf:

Chain
19-10-2010, 21:12
from the top of mind regarding the 2 armies i know best (DE and Beast9


Best for the points Slugtounge better the larger the game


worst Tullaris
Which is a pretty damn shame when he got a pretty nice fluff having no option of getting ASF now even the DH standard bearer in his unit helped by COB doesn't save him any use


seriously a champion worth ~ 107 points with ws 5, t 3, w 1 heavy armor and asl...
What kind of Use could he be? making my opponent laugh before he kill him on his first try? on the defensive he got the same as the average Executioner...


A faq should change him he was in need of a remake in 7'th in 8'th his in desperate need

Malorian
19-10-2010, 21:47
The 1 wound special character did seem odd, but at the same time I am glad that GW had SCs that were there for fluff and not because they are amazingly good.

ooglatjama
19-10-2010, 21:50
Slugtongue is the most rageworthy and annoying just because he pays so little for his unstoppable death fart that kills cannons.

Lorcryst
20-10-2010, 09:18
apearently you havent looked at the sad Lizardmen characters...
they are all overpriced and usualy you can do about the same or
better job with a generic lizardmen lord or hero.
On top of that some of them got the neft bat in 8th for no reason at all. :wtf:

Uuuuh, yes, I have to admit that I didn't look at the Lizardmen, don't own that army book yet ...

Lord_Elric
20-10-2010, 11:56
THROGG!THROGG!THROGG!THROGG!THROGG!THROGG! all the way. He killed a HPA in 1 turn for me! Well, technically 2 combats, but 1 game turn ;) In 1 combat he can potentially unleash 5 attacks at WS5 S6, then 12 auto hits at S5 no save. Against knights he will butcher (not kill, butcher :P) a whole unit in 1 turn quite happily

where do you get 12 auto hits from throggs entry states he can use it like a breath weapon in the shooting phase it does not state that he has a "breath weapon" and his rules already define how his vomit works in combat.

N810
20-10-2010, 13:33
Another thought...

Have any of the characters I mentioned
goten worse in 8th edition,
better... (cough Tecelis) :shifty:
or about the same.