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CoolKidRoc
11-03-2010, 15:19
With the new Blood Angels Skimming Assault Boat carrying Marines and a Dreadnought vehicle.... would it be unthinkable to have Eldar Wave Serpents have an assault vehicle option?

Karhedron
11-03-2010, 15:42
In a word, yes (unless you are willing to pay nearly twice the points for it).

I don't know if you played back in the bad old days of 3rd edition but back then it was possible to assault out of moving vehicles. Eldar CC squads in wave serpents were hugely powerful.

But even worse were Blood Angels who had fast Rhinos and furious charge. The games dev team were horrified to discover that instead of using transports for tactical deployment, they were basically bein used as skateboards to launch asssaults.

Suffice it to say that we will not see assault ramps on vehicles that cost much less than 200 points. The problem is that it is a no-brainer tactic and is almost impossible to stop, particularly if the vehicle was able to start off behind cover.

Now if you want to assault it requires a bit more thought to do and this in turn gives armies which rely on shooting a fair chance.

incarna
11-03-2010, 15:46
As an Eldar Player I think itíd make a HUGE impact on the viability of our assault units. From a design perspective however, I tend to think of an assault vehicle as having an access point at the front of the vehicle. I think a vehicles momentum drives the assault and a Wave Serpent having to flip around to deploy its cargo would diminish momentumÖ just a stupid design.

Thatís why Eldar GM, Chevy are doing so badly compared to Imperium Mercedes. At least they arenít on a recall like Tau Toyota I guess.

Absolutionis
11-03-2010, 16:20
Storm Serpent could fit the slot rather well. Fluffy as an assault vehicle and justified enough to cost 200+ points. Apocalypse, of course.

htj
11-03-2010, 16:25
It makes my palms sweat and I feel ill when I think about it. Does that count?

I frequently play against a very competent Eldar player and I think it would tip the balance of games from blood-bath to genocide. Not to say that they shouldn't have them, but considering the quality of the Eldar close combat specialists, they would have to be very expensive indeed.

Fixer
11-03-2010, 16:29
Balance issues aside, it might be just better or more fun to give the Eldar some way to assault from their current vehicles.

Some special rule where Banshees can leap acrobatically from their Falcon and assault as it flies overhead.

Emeraldw
11-03-2010, 16:39
I was actually thinking about this and after seeing the Raven Gunship, I think it might be where we are headed and would give Eldar a pretty big boost, plus it emphasizes their mobility, which isn't what it was comparatively.

Also, why does it have to be 200+ points? The Raven is what, 130 or something? It has almost as much survivability as a wave serpent and is an assault vehicle for jump pack troops, which Blood Angels have plenty of.

Even Banshess aren't THAT scary without Doom and even if they win, what happens? Their stuck out in the open and we all know what happens to Eldar in the open.

I just don't see it being some horrible game breaking thing without other factors being thrown into the mix.

Vaktathi
11-03-2010, 16:51
Also, why does it have to be 200+ points? The Raven is what, 130 or something?The former, not the latter.

pom134
11-03-2010, 16:53
The bloodraven is NOT 130. It is at the bottom of the points criteria set forth above in this post.

wazatdingder
11-03-2010, 16:53
Eldar can assault out of vehicles...

You just have to be the Dark kind.

pom134
11-03-2010, 16:58
The former, not the latter.

we meet again!

Mike3791
11-03-2010, 17:13
In a word, yes (unless you are willing to pay nearly twice the points for it).

I don't know if you played back in the bad old days of 3rd edition but back then it was possible to assault out of moving vehicles. Eldar CC squads in wave serpents were hugely powerful.

But even worse were Blood Angels who had fast Rhinos and furious charge. The games dev team were horrified to discover that instead of using transports for tactical deployment, they were basically bein used as skateboards to launch asssaults.

Suffice it to say that we will not see assault ramps on vehicles that cost much less than 200 points. The problem is that it is a no-brainer tactic and is almost impossible to stop, particularly if the vehicle was able to start off behind cover.

Now if you want to assault it requires a bit more thought to do and this in turn gives armies which rely on shooting a fair chance.

3rd edition also had CC consolidation, 5th doesn't. Besides, BA have them NOW and they have very good CC troops. Eldar troops are good in CC but are more venerable(then SM) to shooting after the combat is over. It would not break the game if scorpions/banshees/warlocks could assault out of a vehicile.

Edit: Emerald beat me to it!

Vaktathi
11-03-2010, 17:16
we meet again!

Indeed...:p




I wouldn't have a problem with Eldar getting assault ramps on a new vehicle, but it just wouldn't make a whole lot of sense on any of the current ones given the way they are designed.

Corrode
11-03-2010, 17:22
3rd edition also had CC consolidation, 5th doesn't. Besides, BA have them NOW and they have very good CC troops. Eldar troops are good in CC but are more venerable(then SM) to shooting after the combat is over. It would not break the game if scorpions/banshees/warlocks could assault out of a vehicile.

Edit: Emerald beat me to it!

They have Land Raiders and Stormravens, both of which cost north of 200pts. That's not quite the same as a 115pt Wave Serpent, especially when that has better defence than the Stormraven, and is more manouvreable than the Land Raider.

Badger[Fr]
11-03-2010, 17:24
I wouldn't mind, depending on the cost, avaibility, and resilience of such a vehicle. An assault vehicle as an expensive HS choice seems fine.

Tethylis
11-03-2010, 17:52
Just because the door is on the back of the model it does not mean you should not be able to use it as an assault ramp, the Eldar have some of the fastest and most manouverable vehicles in the game. Whats to stop a Wave Serpent zooming overhead landing behind the target squad then the banshees charging out the back? No different to a Land Raider driving up parking in front of the target squad then Terminators charging in.

Personally I believe that to assault or not should be based on the speeds that the vehicle travelled, A Land Raider can travel full speed and still assault however our Wave Serpents which could travel that same distance in half the time cannot? :wtf:

Griffindale
11-03-2010, 17:54
I hear they're already going to raise the cost of Wave Serpents in the next Eldar codex. I can't imagine how expensive they'll be if they keep getting new abilities.

Radium
11-03-2010, 17:55
Fluffwise it would be perfectly logical for them to have assault vehicles.

In game... no way. That would be truly horrible to face. And boring to play with.

Sildani
11-03-2010, 18:12
Yes, put me in the camp of it being "unthinkable". There's such a thing as being too good.

Now, if they gave the Eldar the Venom light transport (Vyper stats, one gun, 6 man capacity), I'd agree that assaulting after moving would be viable. Just not out of a Falcon or Serpent.

Charistoph
11-03-2010, 18:13
Just add to the Fleet rule that all transports are treated as open-topped for mounting and dismounting.

Done.

Mike3791
11-03-2010, 18:32
They have Land Raiders and Stormravens, both of which cost north of 200pts. That's not quite the same as a 115pt Wave Serpent, especially when that has better defence than the Stormraven, and is more manouvreable than the Land Raider.

It should at least be an option(upgrade) to the transports. Maybe make infranty a little cheaper to conpensate, and have it be a 100pt upgrade. The question shouldn't be weather eldar should have it or not, but how to put it in and make it balanced.

And can people please take into consideration that BA troops are just as good as CC eldar and are waay more durable then eldar troops and they can still do it!

Cosmid
11-03-2010, 18:58
I was pondering this after reading the blood ravens rumors and came up with something I think would be cool and fluffy.

Wave serpents could have a "warp gate" upgrade. What it would do is let the transported squad make a warp jump out of the vehicle a lot like the warp spiders assault jump. Instead of disembarking normally they go 2d6" measured from the door of the vehicle (which instead of opening has the warp gate on the inside) and fill in like deep strikers. On a roll of a double one model is lost to the warp. Units that exit like that can assault. Maybe 25 points (making a fairly stripped transport with it 135)?

Obviously the numbers might need tweaking for balance, but I like that it is very similar to the warp spider jump. Could be just 1d6 range and a model is lost on a 1.


PS Land Raiders are av14 all around and have smoke launchers, a lot tougher than a wave serpent and have stronger weapons.

Corrode
11-03-2010, 19:08
PS Land Raiders are av14 all around and have smoke launchers, a lot tougher than a wave serpent and have stronger weapons.

Which is why I specifically stated a Serpent is more manouvreable than a Land Raider but tougher than a Stormraven (to front and sides at least). The LR may be AV14 all around, but it can't jump over terrain, or move flat out. They also cost more than double for the privilege. Stormravens are about 50pts cheaper and have similar advantages to our theoretical Wave Serpent.

dahli.llama
11-03-2010, 22:11
I think the real balancing factor here is choice.

If the Eldar codex stayed exactly as it is but added an assault ramp to the Wave Serpent, it would force Eldar players to choose between Fire Dragons, Banshees, Scorpions and Harlequins.

Right now, most competitive builds just run Dragons in the Elite slot. If we had an assault capable Wave Serpent, we'd have to choose to remove some of that anti-tank power in exchange for the assault capable units. And really, if you're facing a lot of mech armies, it's still not a great trade, since very few of the assault units have any kind of anti-tank ability.

Yes a squad of Banshees might tear up the first squad it hits, but that's it. It's not like a squad of Terminators that will keep pounding through everything that it can touch.

Mors
11-03-2010, 23:26
As Sildani said, bring back/in the "venom".

I was already thinking the other day that this upgrade option for a Vyper would probably see more Vypers getting used. It's limited capacity, light armour would not be game breaking.

Kelderaith
11-03-2010, 23:27
Depends of your environment really. I fight vs "light" mech army (that means they do have transports and other tanks, but hardly 10 in a 1500 list for example). As such, I don't need 8 millions anti-tank weapons, and I do have a large squad of CC (10 banshees including exarch and seer). As for durability, I run my seer with stones, doom and fortune, my banshee are just about as durable (apart from being T3) as terminators from small arms, and yeah they get shredded my things that ignores their armour saves, but quite frankly, we deal with terminators around here with a massive amounts of shots instead of plasma anyways (because of the marvelously good idea of making stormshield that broken), so the distinction between those 2 specialist units is not as great as it seems.

Bunnahabhain
12-03-2010, 02:48
Not unthinkable, but very unlikely.

Fast skimmer transports you can assault from are a massive force multiplier, so have to be expensive. They don't fit with the current Eldar aesthetic.

I could see a vyper style one....smaller and lightly armoured, it could be a reasonable price..

CraftworldsRus
12-03-2010, 03:04
Not unthinkable, but very unlikely.

Fast skimmer transports you can assault from are a massive force multiplier, so have to be expensive. They don't fit with the current Eldar aesthetic.

I could see a vyper style one....smaller and lightly armoured, it could be a reasonable price..

Like a Dark Eldar Raider? I think we have those? :p

TheDasuri
12-03-2010, 03:56
I hear they're already going to raise the cost of Wave Serpents in the next Eldar codex. I can't imagine how expensive they'll be if they keep getting new abilities.

Really? Considering how cheap transports are for a lot of the 5th edition codexes I'd be kind of shocked. Yes I know how much better our wave serpents are than a Rhino, but it already costs 3 times as much!

Ianos
12-03-2010, 05:06
Really? Considering how cheap transports are for a lot of the 5th edition codexes I'd be kind of shocked. Yes I know how much better our wave serpents are than a Rhino, but it already costs 3 times as much!

Actually it's more like 2 times plus change with a shuricannon and spirit stones. Thing is though there are even better comparisons like valkyries/vendettas. Not only do they allow disembarkation (which fits the IG plan as they are shooters) on a 24" move, they also have a ton of fire power compared to the serpent, can deep strike and outflank while costing less. I won't even go to options like cover negation LARGE blasts!

Serpents are severely overcosted, but no i would not like to see assault ramp on eldar. I would go with price decrease, better guns and maybe some agility eldar USR which makes their fleet better (since everyone got 'run' for free) and adds to their being faster to come out like Fixer said. Something like, "Eldar are agile, they can fleet 3d6 and keep the highest. They treat transports as open topped for the purposes of assaulting but must always exit from the hatch. When they assault out of a moving vehicle they count as moving through difficult terrain"

Inquisitor Engel
12-03-2010, 06:25
Really? Considering how cheap transports are for a lot of the 5th edition codexes I'd be kind of shocked. Yes I know how much better our wave serpents are than a Rhino, but it already costs 3 times as much!

The problem is, I have to drive up and sit around for a turn or bail and sit around, either of which means I'm getting shot to BITS. In all likelihood, the Serpent gets popped, a couple of Banshees die in the fire and they then all get shredded by simple bolter fire.

The Wave Serpent has a rough time doing its job currently. I would GLADLY pay extra to have it function as an Assault vehicle.

Znail
12-03-2010, 07:30
But would you pay double the cost? Its a bit selfish to asume that you should get every new thing another army gets but for less.

TheDasuri
12-03-2010, 07:44
The problem is, I have to drive up and sit around for a turn or bail and sit around, either of which means I'm getting shot to BITS. In all likelihood, the Serpent gets popped, a couple of Banshees die in the fire and they then all get shredded by simple bolter fire.

The Wave Serpent has a rough time doing its job currently. I would GLADLY pay extra to have it function as an Assault vehicle.


That's not what I'm surprised about. I was surprised at the apparent increase in future wave serpents cost without this feature. Considering how overpriced it is compared to 5th edition vehicles you would think it'd go down in price if no new abilities were gained.

MetalGecko23
12-03-2010, 08:09
Actually it's more like 2 times plus change with a shuricannon and spirit stones. Thing is though there are even better comparisons like valkyries/vendettas. Not only do they allow disembarkation (which fits the IG plan as they are shooters) on a 24" move, they also have a ton of fire power compared to the serpent, can deep strike and outflank while costing less. I won't even go to options like cover negation LARGE blasts!
Those cover negation LARGE blasts! are one shot, there are 2 of them and they are str4 ap5. Hardly game changers or even anything to worry about, unless you have guardians in which case you could lose a few....oh no!

I think the wave serpent as is would be ok at about 100pts with upgrades or 80pts without.
Be happy the wave serpent isn't the devilfish.

Znail
12-03-2010, 08:10
I find Waveserpents to be one of the Eldar strong points rather then a weakness. Or can anyone argue that Eldar lists that does not use Waveserpents are generaly better then the ones that do?

Karhedron
12-03-2010, 09:47
Most Eldar lists seem to include Wave Serpents, often quite a lot of them so I do not think they are over-costed too badly. They are used for tactical deployment and deliverying fire-support squads rather than launching assaults.

GWs stated aim in changing the vehicle rules for 4th edition was that they wanted to make assaults harder to pull off. In 3rd edition it was easy to assault and the results were so effective that there was usually little incentive to shoot anything other than dedicated heavy weapon squads.

Now we have a meta where massed basic weapon Troops in Transports is a viable tactic be they Tactical Marines, Dire Avengers or Fire Warriors. The key difference is that while shooting may cause a break test, you are unlikely to wipe out a simmilarly sized squad in one turn. In an assault it is quite feasible to wipe out a squad in a single round thanks to Sweeping advances.

That is why GW do not want to make assaults too easy, it is a challenge vs reward issue. Launching an assault is harder because the rewards of a sucessful charge are potentially higher.

Yes Marines get Land Raiders (and now the Storm Raven) but by the time you have put a decent CC squad in one of those vehicles you are looking at the best part of 500 points. So although you can launch easier assaults you now have the problem that you have given your opponent a nice juicy target for his melta guns etc.

An 80 point squad of Fire Dragons can reliably wreak a Land Raider and strand those expensive CC troops with a long walk to their target. Sure they may die in return but it is quite often worth the exchange to prevent a nasty unit hitting your lines.

Now you do get people who spam 2 or even 3 Land Raiders in some armies and they are nasty but that usually leaves little room for much else.

Now currently it is quite feasible to put 5 Wave Serpents into even a quite modest sized game. They move twice as fast as a Land Raider and are nearly as hard to take down. Now if you fill those full of Banshees, Scorpions, Harlequins and a Seer Council or two, you can get most (if not all) of your army into assault by turn 2.

I am an Eldar player and I would love to be able to do this but I alreay win enough games. If I could pull off stunts like this I suspect there is every chance people would stop playing against me (and I would not be able to blame them).

Assault ramps on a Serpent would just be too good IMHO. There are still ways to launch assaults, you just need a bit more patience.

Leo
12-03-2010, 11:12
Most Eldar lists seem to include Wave Serpents, often quite a lot of them so I do not think they are over-costed too badly. They are used for tactical deployment and deliverying fire-support squads rather than launching assaults.

Of course most Eldar lists include Serpents. It's either that or footslogging your Aspects across the table into a Guard line, Orc mobs or now a pack of fast Baal Predators toting superflamer.

I do not own any Serpents yet, so I get to try this on a regular basis and taking half of your army off the table everytime your opponent manages to not forget his shooting phase is not as funny as most people think.

At least it's usually over very quickly. The only other working option would be the Seer Council. It would be reasonable to think that it will be hit by the nerf bat come next Codex, though.





GWs stated aim in changing the vehicle rules for 4th edition was that they wanted to make assaults harder to pull off. In 3rd edition it was easy to assault and the results were so effective that there was usually little incentive to shoot anything other than dedicated heavy weapon squads.


Considering the options in the new Blood Angels codex this philosophy has been done away with since.




Now we have a meta where massed basic weapon Troops in Transports is a viable tactic be they Tactical Marines, Dire Avengers or Fire Warriors. The key difference is that while shooting may cause a break test, you are unlikely to wipe out a simmilarly sized squad in one turn. In an assault it is quite feasible to wipe out a squad in a single round thanks to Sweeping advances.

That is why GW do not want to make assaults too easy, it is a challenge vs reward issue. Launching an assault is harder because the rewards of a sucessful charge are potentially higher.

Yes Marines get Land Raiders (and now the Storm Raven) but by the time you have put a decent CC squad in one of those vehicles you are looking at the best part of 500 points. So although you can launch easier assaults you now have the problem that you have given your opponent a nice juicy target for his melta guns etc.

An 80 point squad of Fire Dragons can reliably wreak a Land Raider and strand those expensive CC troops with a long walk to their target. Sure they may die in return but it is quite often worth the exchange to prevent a nasty unit hitting your lines.



The Dragons wont get close to that Land Raider without transportation of their own. Otherwise they are just shot down or even directly assaulted by the stuff in the Land Raider. The threat range of a Land Raider assault is larger then the range of the Dragons' Fusion guns.

So saying that you just blow this up with the oh so cheap unit is pretty daft.




Now you do get people who spam 2 or even 3 Land Raiders in some armies and they are nasty but that usually leaves little room for much else.

Now currently it is quite feasible to put 5 Wave Serpents into even a quite modest sized game. They move twice as fast as a Land Raider and are nearly as hard to take down. Now if you fill those full of Banshees, Scorpions, Harlequins and a Seer Council or two, you can get most (if not all) of your army into assault by turn 2.



Huh? 5 Serpents with cheap weaponry clock in at well over 500 points. In a mid size game this leaves less than 1000 points for units to fill them up.
Full squads of C&C Aspects cost close to 200, Warlocks with attached Seer come it around 300.

So you'll be fielding one Warlock squad, not two. This is before you even have a single troops choice in your army and if you eat up your elites section with Scorpions, Banshees and Harlequins you'll be having a ball taking on heavy armour or even midlevel transports.




I am an Eldar player and I would love to be able to do this but I alreay win enough games. If I could pull off stunts like this I suspect there is every chance people would stop playing against me (and I would not be able to blame them).

Assault ramps on a Serpent would just be too good IMHO. There are still ways to launch assaults, you just need a bit more patience.



I don't think, that the Serpent would need an assault ramp either, but handing out other options isn't that far fetched and much unlike Blood Angels the Eldar C&C units can't weather incoming fire nearly as well, so even if one would manage to get close fast it would in no way mean an easy victory.

That said, instead of an assault ramp in the Eldar army i'd much rather have an improvement for Eldar on foot. I don't believe it will happen though. Selling loads of vehicles seems GWs way to overcome the finance crisis.

Poseidal
12-03-2010, 11:33
Rather than an Assault Ramp, instead of giving Eldar something be ause he imperials had it, why not something different?

I thought of this: Webway Portal upgrade to Falcon; 50 (or so) points, replaces troop capacity. The hatch is treated as your table edge for reserve infantry units, no more than one per turn.

This allows them to assault from it, but subject to the reserves rule.

Karhedron
12-03-2010, 12:01
Considering the options in the new Blood Angels codex this philosophy has been done away with since.
Not really, Land Raiders and Storm Ravens are both over 200 points. Jump pack squads are vulnerable to shooting and only Vanguard can DS and then assault. However tey have this ability in the regular SM codex too and are rarely taken suggesting they are not a good use of the points.


The Dragons wont get close to that Land Raider without transportation of their own. Otherwise they are just shot down or even directly assaulted by the stuff in the Land Raider. The threat range of a Land Raider assault is larger then the range of the Dragons' Fusion guns.

So saying that you just blow this up with the oh so cheap unit is pretty daft.
Not really, that is what I use my Wave Serpents for. So I am still only spending 200 points to destroy 250 points of enemy tank and seriously hamper a similar value in infantry transported inside.

Even if the Dragons die the Wave Serpent is still a fast gun platform that can transport other units, perform tank shocks and contest objectives.






Huh? 5 Serpents with cheap weaponry clock in at well over 500 points. In a mid size game this leaves less than 1000 points for units to fill them up.
Full squads of C&C Aspects cost close to 200, Warlocks with attached Seer come it around 300.

So you'll be fielding one Warlock squad, not two. This is before you even have a single troops choice in your army and if you eat up your elites section with Scorpions, Banshees and Harlequins you'll be having a ball taking on heavy armour or even midlevel transports.
I was thinking 1750-2000 points but if you go down to 1500 I see your point.

Mind you the standard Mechdar template is usually 2 squads of DAs, 1 multi-flamer storm guardian squad and 2 fire dragon squads. You can just about fit that into 1500 while leaving enough points for a cheap Farseer or Autarch.

Thud
12-03-2010, 12:11
The only other working option would be the Seer Council. It would be reasonable to think that it will be hit by the nerf bat come next Codex, though.

Why? It's not like they're particularly great now.



The Dragons wont get close to that Land Raider without transportation of their own. Otherwise they are just shot down or even directly assaulted by the stuff in the Land Raider. The threat range of a Land Raider assault is larger then the range of the Dragons' Fusion guns.

So saying that you just blow this up with the oh so cheap unit is pretty daft.

Of course they'll have transportation of their own. Taking Fire Dragons without a Wave Serpent is just a waste of points. Thing is, that unless you just move your models around at random, you'll end up losing the 80 point FD squad to whatever was inside the Land Raider and your Wave Serpent survives to do more important stuff later on.


Huh? 5 Serpents with cheap weaponry clock in at well over 500 points. In a mid size game this leaves less than 1000 points for units to fill them up.
Full squads of C&C Aspects cost close to 200, Warlocks with attached Seer come it around 300.

Wave Serpents with 300+ points inside = not competitive.



That said, instead of an assault ramp in the Eldar army i'd much rather have an improvement for Eldar on foot. I don't believe it will happen though. Selling loads of vehicles seems GWs way to overcome the finance crisis.

Eldar will never be a good foot army by the virtue of their codex alone. The reason mech is superiour to foot armies is due to the main rules and how you win games, not due to cheap transports.



And as for Eldar assault vehicles; irrelevant. If Wave Serpents got assault hatches, I still wouldn't use Banshees/Scorpions/Harlequins (unless I were playing a casual "let's-try-something-new" game).

Ianos
12-03-2010, 12:13
Those cover negation LARGE blasts! are one shot, there are 2 of them and they are str4 ap5. Hardly game changers or even anything to worry about, unless you have guardians in which case you could lose a few....oh no!

Serpent 110 points has field, tank, twin shuricannon, one twin shuricatapult, extra armor. Valkyrie 110 points has searchlight, deep strike, grav chute, disembarkation from an entire base, a multilaser, 2 heavy bolters, 2 shots of str8 ordnance and can scout. When we upgrade the serpent to 140 for a missile and a chin cannon, the vendetta for example can have 3 twin! lascannons + the 2 heavy bolters. Its not about just playing Eldar vs IG here, its about comparison.


I think the wave serpent as is would be ok at about 100pts with upgrades or 80pts without.
Be happy the wave serpent isn't the devilfish.

If the devilfish is not good also comapared to what other armies get the devilfish should also be changed. BTW for 115 it has -1 side AV to the serpent, but gets better disembarkation, a no LOS weapon, 7 str 5 shots at 18, moves normal but fires as fast and always has cover beyond 12". I am not saying it does not need a fix, but for what it does for its own army its on par with the serpent imo. Back to Eldar though...

As Leo said, serpents are mandatory in Eldar. We are talking an army of fragile, medium+ morale, short ranged, elite specialists. Serpents are expensive though and arming them with decent weapons is even more so. Eldar right now have to rely on dragons and cc to take out tanks reliably because of the high cost of their heavy weapons. Eldar/DE also have lost some of their extra speed compared to the other races, starting with the run rule and then with codex gimmicks here and there. IG got fast outflanking skimmers, Orks the Waaagh and Ghazgull+bikers, Marines can get fleet, BAs flying assault and the list goes on. Eldar/DE should be the masters of speed, I think that will come around the new codices.

Nighthawke
12-03-2010, 12:14
can i just ask why people seem to think giving a wave serpent a assult ramp will make it 200 points or up? :S yes land raiders and strm ravens are that much, but those also have better weaponry on them and better BS. surelly adding an ssult ramp would just bump the WS cost up to around 120-130 since the best weapon we can stick on is a single bright lance.
so surely the basic wavr serpent with two shurikan cannons should cost a lot less then the SR and LR
ops i forgot about the flipin valkyrie, yo know what we should get asult ramps for free nd made cheaper :O :)

CoolKidRoc
12-03-2010, 13:28
I agree, I don't think having assault ramps on Wave Serpents would make a Wave Serpent 200+ points. Not unless a couple things happened.

Like it had Assault Ramps, Two Twin Linked weapons and EML pods with 8 shots. Could Deep Strike, have drop shoots, and could carry a unit and a wraith lord. As that is the basic equivilant to the the Storm Raven at 200 points with no upgrades.

I think people are forgetting that not only can BA transport a 12 models, be it HQs Elites, Troops with Furious Charge and Rending and Power weapons, Assault Marines or whatever, but they can also carry a Dreadnought at the same time, which still can assault on the move, buy a furioso and boom you've got a fleeting dread that is basically flying, 12 in move, 4.5 inch disembark 1-6 inch fleet, 6 inch charge and you've got something that can go 23.5 to 28.5 inches a turn and have first turn assault.

So if anything is game breaking it's a storm raven right now. I think people are just still scared about those 3rd ed days, where they would get raped by banshees, but they really aren't that good anymore. I mean unless I have a doomseer with them I've got a hard enough time taking down a tac squad, sure I strike first but I still hit on 4 and wound on 5s... so a ten man squad will only get an average of 5 kills... and then the marines get there strike backs, and the banshees get obliterated in shooting the next turn.

Right now a minimum Wave Serpent costs, 100 points (with the required one weapon being a SCannon) So yes it is half the price of a Storm Raven, but I think at 120 pts it would be comparible in point structure to a storm raven as correct me if I'm wrong the storm raven is 12 all around armor which is a huge difference as it makes it almost invulnerable to almost 90% of close combats. It also has much less firepower then a storm raven, and many less of the special abilities a storm raven has. Throw your usually upgrades on the Serpents and you're looking at about 140 points for it. I think that's more then fair compared to most of the other things out there.

And as far as cheap assault vehicles looking at DE Raiders and Ork Trucks... they can all do it for even cheaper. And if anything if I have learned anything from gaming, mass of units can overcome any elite HtH squads which DE and Orks can do beautifully.

Karhedron
12-03-2010, 13:38
I agree, I don't think having assault ramps on Wave Serpents would make a Wave Serpent 200+ points.

I think you have misunderstood my point. I do not think that a Wave Serpent with an assault ramp was worth 200 points (I certainly would never field them if they cost that).

My point was that by restricting Assault Ramps to expensive vehicles, it keeps the number of them in check. Assault ramps on Land Raiders and Stormravens are balanced by the fact that you will struggle to fit more than 2 or 3 in your army.

If you have Assault ramps as a 20 point upgrade you could easily field twice that number in the same game and it would risk getting too powerful.

If you had assault ramps as a 20 point upgrade for Rhinos it would be cheesy as hell and broken beyond belief. ;)

The value of assault ramps cannot be fixed at some arbitary value because it depends a lot on the stats and cost of the vehicle carrying it.

CoolKidRoc
12-03-2010, 14:12
I think you have misunderstood my point. I do not think that a Wave Serpent with an assault ramp was worth 200 points (I certainly would never field them if they cost that).

Neither would I but things shouldn't be priced out of being played... look at flying Hive Tyrants, all the Nid players in my area have gone to a single Tervigon HQ for half the price and load up on everything else in the army that is much cheaper and much nastier... it's sad to see stables like that go.


My point was that by restricting Assault Ramps to expensive vehicles, it keeps the number of them in check. Assault ramps on Land Raiders and Stormravens are balanced by the fact that you will struggle to fit more than 2 or 3 in your army.

But once again, you've got assault ramps on very cheap vehicles, raiders and trucks. Sure they go down easily, but you can take 6-10 of them if you want and you're not worried about the points costs.


If you have Assault ramps as a 20 point upgrade you could easily field twice that number in the same game and it would risk getting too powerful.

We're talking about Eldar Assault Ramps though. I run 3 wave serpents at 1.5k all as elites already, 1 banshee 2 dragons. for 20 points I'm not all of a sudden going to field 6 wave serpents as I have nothing else that can really make use of them.


If you had assault ramps as a 20 point upgrade for Rhinos it would be cheesy as hell and broken beyond belief. ;)

It would be broken, but we're talking about a 35 point rhino vs a 100 point serpent, you currently get 3 rhinos for the price of one. Rhinos are an easy wargear upgrade but wave serpents often double the costs of a unit.


The value of assault ramps cannot be fixed at some arbitary value because it depends a lot on the stats and cost of the vehicle carrying it.

I agree, and based on the stats and costs of the storm raven I think the assault ramp is underpriced. As that vehicle in my mind more then rivals a wave serpent and falcon both in fire power and survivability.

Survivability because of target saturation. Fly up, throw out 2 more units, are you now going to shoot at the storm raven, or the marines or the dread. All the thing has to do is last 1 turn and most likely people will probably reserves denial it, deep strike it in, unload, and charge. WOW!

But I understand what you're getting at, and one of the ways other then price restrictions is Force Chart Restrictions.

I personally think the storm raven is about 50-100 points cheaper then it should be compared to eldar vehicles.

For 190 Points I can take a Falcon with a Bright Lance, Holo Fields and Scannon. Yes it is more survivable then then Storm Raven... but then just a bit. As Falcons are still vulnerable to melta spam and the like. It has half the troop carrying capacity and can not carry a wraithlord... nor does it have assault ramps. That and none of it's weapons are twin linked. Can't Deep Strike or drop troops while moving flat out. (Wow didn't realize how much less Falcons had lol)

But for 10 extra points the Storm Raven has this, and I think they keep you from taking 5-6 of these by keeping them a Heavy Choice.

Now let look at what units would "actually" gain from assault ramps. We've got Harlies, Banshees, Warlocks, and Scorpions. So that's really a max of 5 units that gain from it, and if you're taking two warlock squads you're looking at 600 points of elites and 250 points base for a farseer and warlocks with no powers. That's a 1000 points with no vehicles yet no troops and no other support. Throw in 5 wave serpents at we'll say 150 for easy math and you're now up to 750 points in transports. So 1750 for 5 units with absolutly no upgrades. This will really only be viable at 2.5k as you'll easily reach 2k once you get upgrades for your units, and well you need some troops or you can't do anything.

Now let's look at a 1.5k game, You'd honestly in my opinion be looking at 1 Howling Banshee squad in a Assault Waveserpent. Because for me I'll be taking Fire Dragons for AT as my other AT consistently fails me. And Eldar just can't put all of their Eggs in CC with out sweeping advancing into other units. They just get left out to dry. So with the changes in the core rules, and the change in Meta being mech. I honestly don't think having a Wave Serpent getting Assault upgrade for 20ish points is that game breaking.



Edit: Oh and I forgot it has Power of the Machine Spirit so it can move flat out, fire it's twin linked multi-melta and still get's it 4+ cover save! Oh how I wish my falcons could move 12 and shoot 2 weapons, or move 24 and shoot. :(

Luisjoey
12-03-2010, 15:56
if you are eldar and want to assault.... you are a dark eldar... assault from a raider

Corrode
12-03-2010, 16:02
Stormravens don't have PotMS.

CoolKidRoc
12-03-2010, 16:06
if you are eldar and want to assault.... you are a dark eldar... assault from a raider

But I'm normal edlar and want to assault... can I still buy raiders :P


Stormravens don't have PotMS.

Yeah they do, saw it in the Codex yesterday over at my local GW store.

Making it the only thing I know of in the normal 40k rule set that can move over 12 inches and still fire a weapon.

For verification check out http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/03/40k-review-blood-angels-codex-overview.html about 1 minute 40 seconds in :D

marv335
12-03-2010, 16:12
But I'm normal edlar and want to assault

No army gets everything.
If you want assault ramps, change army.
the only fast vehicles under 200pts that you can do this from have av10 and are open topped.

CoolKidRoc
12-03-2010, 16:20
No army gets everything.
If you want assault ramps, change army.
the only fast vehicles under 200pts that you can do this from have av10 and are open topped.

And before hand it was only a 250 point vehicle that had assault ramps. So it seems things are changing. And for 200 points that thing definitely seems to get everything.

But I'm not asking for everything, and I'm not even saying eldar should it'd be nice if they did. But I'm asking is it Unthinkable that they might be able to get it?

Michaelius
12-03-2010, 18:19
I'd like to see it. That would make Banshees playable first time ever since 3rd edition ended.

ArmyC
12-03-2010, 18:24
I like the idea of an Eldar ability to take the place of fleet. Call it The Eldar Leap: Units may run or disembark from a vehicle that has moved up to cruising speed, then assault in the same turn.

Edit due to greater insight.

Nighthawke
12-03-2010, 18:40
that fleet thing isnt so good when you consider shrike gives terminators fleet :/

Worsle
12-03-2010, 18:54
I am not sure about eldar having assault ramps but banshees need some way of assaulting out of vehicles to have a role in the codex. Could be an innate ability or an exarch one for all I really care but until they get that I see no reason to use them. Would be nice to be able to use them too. Maybe an invulnerable save in melee while we are at it or am I being greedy? Either way I want it.

MetalGecko23
12-03-2010, 20:39
Serpent 110 points has field, tank, twin shuricannon, one twin shuricatapult, extra armor. Valkyrie 110 points has searchlight, deep strike, grav chute, disembarkation from an entire base, a multilaser, 2 heavy bolters, 2 shots of str8 ordnance and can scout. When we upgrade the serpent to 140 for a missile and a chin cannon, the vendetta for example can have 3 twin! lascannons + the 2 heavy bolters. Its not about just playing Eldar vs IG here, its about comparison.
I was only comparing to the Eldar because their the topic. Valk/Vends have the gravchute insertion yes, but they are guard units. Imagine the same power in the Eldar hands. This vehicle would be considerably more powerful so that needs to be considered.


If the devilfish is not good also comapared to what other armies get the devilfish should also be changed. BTW for 115 it has -1 side AV to the serpent, but gets better disembarkation, a no LOS weapon, 7 str 5 shots at 18, moves normal but fires as fast and always has cover beyond 12". I am not saying it does not need a fix, but for what it does for its own army its on par with the serpent imo. Back to Eldar though...
Can't disagree with that. Though the wave serpent still carries more powerful units and that should still be considered for points and balance. Fire warriors do not compare to anything (atleast right now) in the Eldar codex.....ok guardians....thats it.

Ianos
13-03-2010, 05:33
I was only comparing to the Eldar because their the topic. Valk/Vends have the gravchute insertion yes, but they are guard units. Imagine the same power in the Eldar hands. This vehicle would be considerably more powerful so that needs to be considered.

First of all i was not advocating grav chute for Eldar, secondly the insertion favors the Guard even more due to the customizable, cheap and shooty units they will unload. Finally, 3 plasma-guns>bladestorm in most cases and lets not even get to guardians. It is exactly for the reason you describe (units should be balanced according to what other units they can work with) that the valkyrie/vendetta is greatly stronger than the serpent most times. It is basically the same logic that made the OP initiate this thread. Why should better than fearless, tough, all arounders have also better speed and better transport capacity, with better guns and better deployment for about the same points?



Can't disagree with that. Though the wave serpent still carries more powerful units and that should still be considered for points and balance. Fire warriors do not compare to anything (atleast right now) in the Eldar codex.....ok guardians....thats it.

Eldar do not have a 30" range troop that can essentially turn into avengers when double tapping. Tau also play differently, they initially should deploy, chew some opposition from range, then embark. They do not need to get right into the thick of it like 80% of the fragile, specialist Eldar have to. True, Tau need a boost, but the Eldar do too.

Krovin-Rezh
13-03-2010, 11:34
If Serpents had assault ramps, what would be the point of even having a DE army? It's a pretty ridiculous request.

Wave Serpents are quite durable, and so can be used like a much better version of a Rhino. Move close (flat out), stay inside for protection, and move out and charge next turn using fleet if you have to. What's so hard about that? Expensive transports? Who cares. If they get the unit into close combat, and soak up some shots in the process, they've done their job. Passengers die from explosions? It happens, but Serpents are very tricky to damage, so it is not a common occurrence.

What Eldar players really need is to have their infantry units reworked, but that's a topic for another discussion.

MetalGecko23
13-03-2010, 12:16
First of all i was not advocating grav chute for Eldar, secondly the insertion favors the Guard even more due to the customizable, cheap and shooty units they will unload. Finally, 3 plasma-guns>bladestorm in most cases and lets not even get to guardians. It is exactly for the reason you describe (units should be balanced according to what other units they can work with) that the valkyrie/vendetta is greatly stronger than the serpent most times. It is basically the same logic that made the OP initiate this thread. Why should better than fearless, tough, all arounders have also better speed and better transport capacity, with better guns and better deployment for about the same points?
Wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, sorry. Just saying that Valk/Serpent don't compare well. They have different roles and carry different things. The Valk is more like the Falcon which if the Falcon was a little less unkillable (note I have yet to play Eldar in 5th) I think it could go down a little in points. The Serpent is more like the Razorback which you pay extra points for the extra capcity and survivablity which I think is fair though maybe a little less points.

A major problem with the Eldar is that their rules seem to be created in such a fashion that they can easily swing from being broken to meh, with very little done to their rules. A complete over haul and reimagining might be needed to fix this problem.

Dr.Clock
13-03-2010, 14:24
The Wave serpent is not a good candidate for an assault ramp IMO.

Grav chutes as an upgrade for aspect squads would be nice... but is not necessary.

If anything, change the 'acrobatic' exarch power to allow banshees to assault after disembarking...

Give harlies the venom back (should probably be reintroduced in the DE codex).

Done.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

CoolKidRoc
13-03-2010, 15:52
The Wave serpent is not a good candidate for an assault ramp IMO.

Grav chutes as an upgrade for aspect squads would be nice... but is not necessary.

If anything, change the 'acrobatic' exarch power to allow banshees to assault after disembarking...

Give harlies the venom back (should probably be reintroduced in the DE codex).

Done.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

I don't exactly understand why the Wave Serpent wouldn't be a good candidate, especially if you made it a purchasable upgrade. Why don't you think it would work?

But I do like the ideas of the unit upgrades also... but what about if they made another Eldar vehicle that could have it, would that be ok?

Dr.Clock
13-03-2010, 17:15
As others have posted, it is basically a fluff issue for me.

I simply don't see just 'any' eldar unit being able to assault out of a serpent. These ships are fully capable of space flight: they have only one access ramp on the back of the vehicle and on it's worst-armoured facing...

Without introducing a whole new kit, these obstacles won't be overcome: You'd think that an eldar vehicle with an assault ramp would actually have the ramp on the best armoured facing so that you could drive up and jump out into the enemy ranks and not have to deal with the tank's momentum carrying you either away from or across the firing arcs of enemy units.

With significant training, I think Banshees COULD pull off an assault from a moving serpent. Guardians, scorpions and seers do not have that level of agility or training. Harlequins don't have the wherewithal to train with the serpents enough to treat it as an assault vehicle. This is why I think that such an ability should be limited to the banshees. It makes this into a neat possibility for one unit... not an army-wide option that could radically alter the way the list plays and would damage the novelty of Dark Eldar.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

MetalGecko23
13-03-2010, 17:23
I am not fond of the 'deep strike and assualt bandwagon' that is building in force. Let it die with the Blood Angels and stay on the Land Raider. Otherwise I can't imagine how the Tau and the Imperial Guard will ever win a game again unless they get good CC units.

CoolKidRoc
13-03-2010, 18:15
@ Dr.Clock - I'm not sure how the most agile and manuerable craft in the galaxy would have problems turning around to unload passengers. It might just be me but with the most advance technology in the known universe these guys should be able to do it.

If a space marine gunship can enter from orbit (space flight) and unload troops that can assault, or can deep strike in and unload troops to assault I would think the eldar would have already thought of a way.

But then I'd be happy with a new kit also, but none of the eldar vehicles out there really have front hatches, or side for that matter, I don't know why but they sure do look good with only a rear hatch.

The problem with eldar now, is you often have to expose the back hatch anyways to get anything done, unload fire dragons the back is exposed, unload anything else and that's what you're doing. Eldar just don't have the troop gun range not to do so.

@ MetalGecko23 - I can see why you don't like that bandwagon, but Eldar really are having a hard enough time against IG as it is, with so many High Str Guns and range eldar can't get in and do what they need to with out loosing everything in the process. Sure I can get a 4+ save and sit there for a turn, but that's a turn of an entire IG army unloading into that tank. It doesn't last very long and then neither do the exposed troops.

Nighthawke
13-03-2010, 18:42
ai , going agiasnt guard with eldar is brutal, infantry get killed due to weirght of shots and our tnaks go down relativley fast due to the amount of antitank/ hugh str weapons then can field. espeically if we dont get first turn :(
also fluff wise arnt wave serpents used to fly into/over the enemy line and drop off units? im sure ive read a story where a wave serpent flew over an enemy line, droped banshees who used their masks to stop the enemy shooting at them coming down and prceeded to kill them all till a space marine or something came along?

MetalGecko23
13-03-2010, 19:13
I can see why you don't like that bandwagon, but Eldar really are having a hard enough time against IG as it is, with so many High Str Guns and range eldar can't get in and do what they need to with out loosing everything in the process. Sure I can get a 4+ save and sit there for a turn, but that's a turn of an entire IG army unloading into that tank. It doesn't last very long and then neither do the exposed troops.
I have heard how the Imperial Guard are giving people a hard time (wow can't believe that is possible :p). I just think that it only takes a small nudge with the Eldar to make them broken. Imagine how hard your time with the Guard would be if your just bypassing all of their fire power and getting straight into assault? Giving the ability only to banshees doens't balance it because we all know everyone would just spam banshees. Which is only 3 units but 3 units that are only to make anything not with an AV die. Mixed with jetbike squads and fire prisms and you have an extremely mobile force that is very hard to kill.

CoolKidRoc
13-03-2010, 19:34
I have heard how the Imperial Guard are giving people a hard time (wow can't believe that is possible :p). I just think that it only takes a small nudge with the Eldar to make them broken. Imagine how hard your time with the Guard would be if your just bypassing all of their fire power and getting straight into assault? Giving the ability only to banshees doens't balance it because we all know everyone would just spam banshees. Which is only 3 units but 3 units that are only to make anything not with an AV die. Mixed with jetbike squads and fire prisms and you have an extremely mobile force that is very hard to kill.

Not as hard as you think, and the problem with spamming banshees is then we're giving up on our reliable anti tank. Eldar almost have to take two squads of dragons to deal with vehicles these days. That really leaves 1 cc unit. Which against guard will tear the **** out of a unit. And then.... the next turn the guard go huh... look we lost 40 points of las pistols, shoot them... and the banshees disappear. Guard also have Hydra Cannons that ignore eldar moving flat out, 72 inch range, and twin linked... those things pop tanks like no tomorrow... the problem for eldar is not only getting there, but getting there, surviving in a tank for a turn, and then assaulting and hoping you don't kill the unit because if you do the shooting will wipe you out the next turn lol...

Corrode
13-03-2010, 20:37
I am not fond of the 'deep strike and assualt bandwagon' that is building in force. Let it die with the Blood Angels and stay on the Land Raider. Otherwise I can't imagine how the Tau and the Imperial Guard will ever win a game again unless they get good CC units.

You cannot DS and assault from a Land Raider. The assault ramp allows units to assault after disembarking from a moving vehicle; it says nothing about lifting the Deep Strike restriction.


As others have posted, it is basically a fluff issue for me.

I simply don't see just 'any' eldar unit being able to assault out of a serpent. These ships are fully capable of space flight: they have only one access ramp on the back of the vehicle and on it's worst-armoured facing...

Without introducing a whole new kit, these obstacles won't be overcome: You'd think that an eldar vehicle with an assault ramp would actually have the ramp on the best armoured facing so that you could drive up and jump out into the enemy ranks and not have to deal with the tank's momentum carrying you either away from or across the firing arcs of enemy units.

With significant training, I think Banshees COULD pull off an assault from a moving serpent. Guardians, scorpions and seers do not have that level of agility or training. Harlequins don't have the wherewithal to train with the serpents enough to treat it as an assault vehicle. This is why I think that such an ability should be limited to the banshees. It makes this into a neat possibility for one unit... not an army-wide option that could radically alter the way the list plays and would damage the novelty of Dark Eldar.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

To be honest, the Land Raider somewhat fails as an assault vehicle as well. The hatch opens up to the front, which lets any schmuck with a lascannon whack a laser beam straight into the engine. It's not a great design. Wave Serpents having a door on the back is possibly slightly more sensible; presumably the force field is pointed at the enemy guns whilst the squad jumps out and whacks the threat to the rear.

Ianos
13-03-2010, 20:38
@MetalGecko23: No offense taken mate, i was also trying to clarify my points. You sure do have valid points about Eldar becoming to OTT if the designers do not think carefully, it is only natural for a win all/lose all army.

@CoolKidRoc: The problems Eldar face vs. shooters can always be addressed by dual autarchs or psychic powers. Fortuned turbo tanks are hard to take down and not everyone plays hydras all the time. You can also stay in combat by fortuning and fork assaults or whipe out multiple units when you add doom. A combinded Eldar assault with psychics can devastate multiple units in one go and the vehicles can provide cover for the consolidating fortuned Eldar infantry.

Maybe assault ramps are not the way as Dr.Clock explains, but Eldar do seem to lack in certain areas. Thing is BAs don't seem to do so...

Eldar certainly need an overhaul and as years go by it will become even more apparent. They should get more speed (e.g. more guns firing on 12" move or star engines giving a straight 6" move with no penalties, better fleet etc), cheaper and more reliable ranged AT and their specialists should be MUCH better than the generalists of other armies rather than marginally better they are now. I really cannot see for example why cc aspects do not have a higher WS and why a lance costs 45 points on a serp. So yeah, maybe GW over-did it with the BAs (who btw have ALL vehicles fast now!) and as for Eldar, they definitely need reworking.

Dr.Clock
13-03-2010, 21:26
The thing is that this is not a simple case of assault ramps=fixed list.

There are sooooo many other things that would make the list more competitive than adding in something as hackneyed as 'serpents are assault vehicles'.

I'm sure a serpent 'could' swing around and let everyone jump out into assault. That would still be ridiculous IMO.

When I have assault units in serpents, it's to provide next-turn support to other units. DA, FlameStorm Guardians or dragons get assaulted? Pile in with a seer council or banshees to try and take back the initiative.

Eldar are all about wicked combinations and planning turns in advance. If all we have to do is plop down six serpents in cover, rush forward and straight into assault, we aren't talking about eldar as we know them anymore.

Eldar are a FIREPOWER army. Our assault units are a last resort for when things get tense or for harassing the enemy where he's too weak to strike back. After the initial strike, eldar will be hard pressed to sustain a full-on assault. This is why it's far better to decimate the enemy from afar before mopping up at your leisure. Adding assault ramps would be fixing the wrong problem. A few additions to warrior powers and more credible Fast Attack options, farseer powers and guardian weaponry are at the top of my list of 'things to fix'.

The idea of an assaulty eldar army is kinda interesting, but I can't escape the feeling that ennabling players to dedicate their lists to multiple first or second-turn charges would just lose people games because they thought this was theway eldar were 'supposed' to play: belligerently and without advanced planning or cunning use of unit combinations. Having to plan out your assaults to make use of both ranged and CC units makes you a better player. One or two long-range assault units would be nice, but I don't think the ability should be applied across the board.

One more unintended consequence would be a further emphasis on mech-eldar. I've always maintained that hammer-anvil play is more fun and rewarding.

The reason the stormraven fits with the BA is that they can spam MEQ jump-troops in the troops FOC. Go ahead and get in that early charge... doesn't matter if it starts to fail as you can easily feed 20 more FCing flyboys into the breach to try and overrun. After you take a couple Banshee units and a Council, Eldar are basically down to Storm Guardians in the assault-troops section. If we pile in expensive Banshees and Council to break the enemy line we a) could get caught out very easily as the enemy units break only to expose us to masses of shooting and b) lack resilient troops to back up this initial investment.

Most of this is purely personal preference. I'm sure you COULD balance eldar assault-serpents. I just don't think it's that big a deal. Also, Dark Eldar are basically guaranteed to do it better.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

CoolKidRoc
13-03-2010, 22:34
You cannot DS and assault from a Land Raider. The assault ramp allows units to assault after disembarking from a moving vehicle; it says nothing about lifting the Deep Strike restriction.

Actually, assault vehicles do list the deep strike restriction. "Assault Vehicle: Models disembarking from any access point on a Land Raider can launch an assault on the turn they do so."

That very clearly over rides the limitations of assault from deep strike.



@CoolKidRoc: The problems Eldar face vs. shooters can always be addressed by dual autarchs or psychic powers. Fortuned turbo tanks are hard to take down and not everyone plays hydras all the time. You can also stay in combat by fortuning and fork assaults or whipe out multiple units when you add doom. A combinded Eldar assault with psychics can devastate multiple units in one go and the vehicles can provide cover for the consolidating fortuned Eldar infantry.

Maybe assault ramps are not the way as Dr.Clock explains, but Eldar do seem to lack in certain areas. Thing is BAs don't seem to do so...

Eldar certainly need an overhaul and as years go by it will become even more apparent. They should get more speed (e.g. more guns firing on 12" move or star engines giving a straight 6" move with no penalties, better fleet etc), cheaper and more reliable ranged AT and their specialists should be MUCH better than the generalists of other armies rather than marginally better they are now. I really cannot see for example why cc aspects do not have a higher WS and why a lance costs 45 points on a serp. So yeah, maybe GW over-did it with the BAs (who btw have ALL vehicles fast now!) and as for Eldar, they definitely need reworking.

The Problem with playing with Dual Autarchs is now you've taken 1-2 turns of the game actually out of the equation. It'd be like playing baseball, going up to bat on the second inning and anything the team did before hand just didn't count. Kind of takes the fun out of it (even though that's currently one of our viable tactics).

But yes I agree, they are in need of an overhaul. I don't think it needs to be extreme but I think people over estimate the quality of our troops, sure they're good at certain things but they're not THAT good. Banshees aren't as good as assault termies or other armies assault troops and don't get an invulnerable save like most others. Fire Dragons die to the vehicle they exploded all the time (hate that). 12" range Guardians just suck, and are completely worthless in all matters, what good is moving close to a unit you can barely hurt to let them move closer to you, shoot and then charge and wipe you out, very very pitiful units.


The thing is that this is not a simple case of assault ramps=fixed list.

There are sooooo many other things that would make the list more competitive than adding in something as hackneyed as 'serpents are assault vehicles'.

I'm sure a serpent 'could' swing around and let everyone jump out into assault. That would still be ridiculous IMO.

When I have assault units in serpents, it's to provide next-turn support to other units. DA, FlameStorm Guardians or dragons get assaulted? Pile in with a seer council or banshees to try and take back the initiative.

Eldar are all about wicked combinations and planning turns in advance. If all we have to do is plop down six serpents in cover, rush forward and straight into assault, we aren't talking about eldar as we know them anymore.

Eldar are a FIREPOWER army. Our assault units are a last resort for when things get tense or for harassing the enemy where he's too weak to strike back. After the initial strike, eldar will be hard pressed to sustain a full-on assault. This is why it's far better to decimate the enemy from afar before mopping up at your leisure. Adding assault ramps would be fixing the wrong problem. A few additions to warrior powers and more credible Fast Attack options, farseer powers and guardian weaponry are at the top of my list of 'things to fix'.

The idea of an assaulty eldar army is kinda interesting, but I can't escape the feeling that ennabling players to dedicate their lists to multiple first or second-turn charges would just lose people games because they thought this was theway eldar were 'supposed' to play: belligerently and without advanced planning or cunning use of unit combinations. Having to plan out your assaults to make use of both ranged and CC units makes you a better player. One or two long-range assault units would be nice, but I don't think the ability should be applied across the board.

One more unintended consequence would be a further emphasis on mech-eldar. I've always maintained that hammer-anvil play is more fun and rewarding.

The reason the stormraven fits with the BA is that they can spam MEQ jump-troops in the troops FOC. Go ahead and get in that early charge... doesn't matter if it starts to fail as you can easily feed 20 more FCing flyboys into the breach to try and overrun. After you take a couple Banshee units and a Council, Eldar are basically down to Storm Guardians in the assault-troops section. If we pile in expensive Banshees and Council to break the enemy line we a) could get caught out very easily as the enemy units break only to expose us to masses of shooting and b) lack resilient troops to back up this initial investment.

Most of this is purely personal preference. I'm sure you COULD balance eldar assault-serpents. I just don't think it's that big a deal. Also, Dark Eldar are basically guaranteed to do it better.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Of course Serpents could swing around, just like LRs turn around to get in better position for there assault units to assault, or allowing them to assault out of the side hatches also. I mean the vehicle still stops for them to get out right?

The reasons for Mech don't have anything to do with Assault ramps, but it's because all of our units lack any range at all. Eldar have always been mech related, at least since I've played back in third. The only things you didn't put in a vehicle were Dark Reapers and Path Finders, but both of those have been nerfed with all of the cover. So as it is Mech is the only ranged unit that can actually strike out anymore.

And as for taking out another army at Range, please please please show me an Eldar list that can do this, I want to play it. Eldar range weapons are so expensive and hit so little that I can't seem to find a viable way of getting them to consistently deal enough damage to matter.

They have to get up close and harass the enemy, and then swoop back not to be utterly destroyed. And then at the last minute we steal objectives. That's how we play. I don't think I could really effectively defend or footslog and take and hold an objective if it weren't for vehicles. Because if we sit, we die... it's just the eldar way.

Dr.Clock
14-03-2010, 03:13
To clarify: by ranged, I mean the shooting phase.

I do not dispute that a serpent could perform the maneuver you propose. They have the best fastest dedicated tank-transports in the game in the game. My issue is with balance both within the list and

There is one other factor: terrain.

I play in terrain-heavy environments... I sit guardians in cover for entire games. I play at over 2000 points exclusively. I have absolutely no problem winning games.

I play with infantry formations because I like doing so. Moving infantry around the board is half the fun.

I think Dark Reapers are fantastic. I just took some in a massive Planetstrike against the new tyranids and they did very well. I even had one exarch left at the end.

I think the only plausible unit for this upgrade is Banshees.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Col. Tartleton
14-03-2010, 03:40
Well lets talk fluff/game balance:

Eldar (CW and Dark) Vehicles should be faster and more maneuverable/useful then anything the Imperium has. They should have the best vehicles in the game bar none.

Wave Serpent- Should be better then a Valkyrie
Falcon Grav Tank- Should be more useful then a Stormraven
Fire Prism- Should be the scariest skimmer tank in the game/ if not scariest tank
Viper- Should be so fast and maneuverable they can melee attack with them
Jetbikes- Likewise, I want to see a "Bike Shock" rule on these puppies

Honestly Eldar are supposed to have #2 Tech to Necrons and thus the best vehicles since the Necrons are a one trick pony vehicle wise.

Hellebore
14-03-2010, 04:11
The problem with the falcon is it sits in the same spot as a land raider FOC wise, but is gamewise far more like a Razorback. So either they should change it to being a dedicated transport option, OR make it as powerful as a land raider. Who would buy a razorback as a Heavy Support choice?

At the moment the wave serpent does everything the falcon does, only better: Transports things better (larger capacity, field protection), shoots things better (twinlinked).

The valkyrie leaves the falcon AND wave serpent in the dust.

Personally I want to see the Falcon the equivalent of a land raider rather than razorback.

As to the OT, yes I think they should be assault vehicles. AND they should cost far more than they do. Because that's what the eldar should be, extremely good and extremely expensive.

But that doesn't sell miniatures.

Hellebore

Col. Tartleton
14-03-2010, 05:15
Easiest way to do it is to make the replace the current Wave Serpent with the Falcon but keep a 10/12 model capacity.

Then beef up the falcon so it can gunship the crap out of stuff. Full guns on the run and the six model limit would make the assault ramp rules a moot point since it's still just 6 eldar statlines.

Then make the Fire Prism into a mix of the falcon's benefits and a tau railgun with the multiplier making it wider but keeping it at scary tank smashing. 1 FP is a Regular S10 Ap2 penetrator. 2 FP and now it's a Small blast... 3 FP... Large Blast of Doom!!! Sure everything under the template dies, but you're using several expensive tanks to make what amounts to a long ranged Demolisher strike. Worth it? Probably.

And Eldar need a Bike Shock rule. It could be like a pinning test or maybe randomized hits or something. Either way it would make them cooler and not be overpowered in any way.

kardar233
14-03-2010, 05:21
But isn't the Wave Serpent unable to take Holo-fields? If so, that's a big disadvantage.

shin'keiro
14-03-2010, 05:43
Im an Eldar player and IMO (in fluff terms), it's not really what Eldar are about. Although i do think the Wave Serpant needs to come down in price from what it is now.

I agree with the Falcon\Razorback comparison and so the Falcon should be more heavily armoured. On a side note, they are also extremely advanced with high tech targeting systems - make them BS4 !!

Harlequins, however are about lightening strikes and appearing from no where, so a Harlequin Mocking Bird\Venom would be great.... but i nearly always get my Harleys in CC anyway without the use of an assault vehicle thanks to Veil.

My Dark Eldar Wyches assault out of Raiders from a Web Way Portal and its quite a shock for peeps who dont know whats coming.

massey
14-03-2010, 05:58
There are a lot of ways to "fix" Eldar (and by fix, I mean improve, because I'm not sure that they're busted at the moment).

So what are the problems?
1) Appear to be slightly overcosted against other armies.
2) Have lost their schtick, with other armies getting better fast skimmers.
3) Many underperforming unit choices.

I think you can fix these problems, but none of them involve assault ramps on wave serpents.

I think certain units need a bump. Wraithlords were brutal in 3rd because you could pick out who you wanted to kill. So sergeants with power fists died fast and then the rest of the squad was left unable to hurt the big guy. 4th changed that, but the Wraithlord was already doomed to nerf-land. Now few people take them. So, he needs another attack, get rid of wraithsight, and perhaps give him fleet. This will make him comparable to the invinci-Falcon.

Dark Reapers? Give them back their regular missile launchers. They suddenly become a huge threat that everyone takes seriously again.

A points drop on the Falcon and Wave Serpent will make them more competitive. Give the starcannon its 3rd shot back.

Changes like that will make the Eldar feared once more. But they don't need assault ramps on vehicles.

SandQueen
14-03-2010, 07:09
With the new Blood Angels Skimming Assault Boat carrying Marines and a Dreadnought vehicle.... would it be unthinkable to have Eldar Wave Serpents have an assault vehicle option?

Yes it would be unthinkable because thats what lead to their downfall. Why do you think all of the vehicles that the Dark Eldar have are open topped and assault ready? Clearly because assault vehicles lead to dimensia and sexual paraphelias among other deviances.

Eldar must abstain from such behavior and as such only use things that are fully enclosed to move troops.

LususNaturae
14-03-2010, 07:41
Huh? 5 Serpents with cheap weaponry clock in at well over 500 points. In a mid size game this leaves less than 1000 points for units to fill them up.
Full squads of C&C Aspects cost close to 200, Warlocks with attached Seer come it around 300.

So you'll be fielding one Warlock squad, not two. This is before you even have a single troops choice in your army and if you eat up your elites section with Scorpions, Banshees and Harlequins you'll be having a ball taking on heavy armour or even midlevel transports.


Yea...I take 5 Wave Serpents in 1500. With more than min weapons and Star Engines. It's not hard to spam the things.




My point was that by restricting Assault Ramps to expensive vehicles, it keeps the number of them in check. Assault ramps on Land Raiders and Stormravens are balanced by the fact that you will struggle to fit more than 2 or 3 in your army..

This is an excellent argument balance-wise. Look at the Carnifex in the 4th edition codex. One or two T6, 4W monsters was no big deal. Six in 1500 points...well, it was so bad, just look at the new codex to see the results.

However, CKR made a good point in that useful Eldar Assault Ramps will be restricted by the FOC, not points cost. The only units in the Eldar army that can make true use of an assault ramp are in the elites choice (you can make an argument for Seer Councils, but their main damage comes from Destructor anyway). Let's be honest, Strom Guardians with the ability to assault after moving are not going to break the game.

Fluffwise it makes sense too. Banshees are lightly armored and train themselves to adapt to these kind of situations (eg, Acrobatic). Harlequins have flip belts - don't tell me those wouldn't make assaulting out of a speeding transport a cakewalk. Scorpions have a harder time justifying it, but I always envisioned Eldar having small grav boosters in their backpacks (not unlike grav chutes) to slow their descent when jumping from a moving vehicle.

I would also like to further drive home that the 200pt Storm Raven isn't just paying for an AV 12 skimmer w/ Assault ramp. It also has:

- a Dreadnaught
- Deep Strike
- REAR ARMOR 12 (this is huge)
- Resistance to Melta
- about a thousand weapons
- the ability to still do stuff when moving flat out

Znail
14-03-2010, 08:11
Actually, assault vehicles do list the deep strike restriction. "Assault Vehicle: Models disembarking from any access point on a Land Raider can launch an assault on the turn they do so."

That very clearly over rides the limitations of assault from deep strike.

Where did you imagination read the words Deep Strike in your quote? I dont see how you claim it lists Deep Strike when the words Deep Strike isnt even in there at all!

kardar233
14-03-2010, 09:44
The deep strike restriction doesn't matter if that quote is exact, because no matter what, if you leave the vehicle you can charge on the same turn. That, while not directly referencing the deep strike restriction, clearly over-rules it.

Voss
14-03-2010, 10:08
Actually, assault vehicles do list the deep strike restriction. "Assault Vehicle: Models disembarking from any access point on a Land Raider can launch an assault on the turn they do so."

That very clearly over rides the limitations of assault from deep strike.



It would, if the only vehicles that have deep strike and assault vehicle rules (which is to say the BA land raiders and stormraven) didn't have additional text explicitly forbidding the transported squad to assault after deep strike. Which they do. It can't be done.

In fact, the BA Land Raider has extra text under both the deep strike AND assault vehicle rules saying that the unit cannot assault. This isn't an issue, it. can. not. be. done.

Corrode
14-03-2010, 10:44
The deep strike AND assault vehicle rules saying that the unit cannot assault. This isn't an issue, it. can. not. be. done.

I knew the Stormraven did, but wasn't aware the Raider carried the same text. One more thing that makes me think 'holy **** someone actually read this codex, looked for loopholes and closed them'.

Znail
14-03-2010, 10:44
The deep strike restriction doesn't matter if that quote is exact, because no matter what, if you leave the vehicle you can charge on the same turn. That, while not directly referencing the deep strike restriction, clearly over-rules it.

For that to be true it would have to say 'that you can always assault' for it to negate all other rules involving assault apart from the one specified.

Other rules the Assault Vehicle rule does note negate:
Firing a rapid fire weapon.
Firing on a diffrent target.
Target outside of range of assault.
etc

If you actualy were correct, then those rules would also be voided by the Assault Vehicle rule.

Its quite simple. 40k rules are written in a such a way that you may be told that you can do something, this is in turn overwritten by other rules that say that you cant do that in specific situations. For a rule to overide such a restriction, then it has to either refeer to that restriction (see Assault vehicle rule refeering to the rule against assaulting from a vehicle that has moved) or use the word 'always'. This can in turn be voided by a rule saying that you cant do something, even if it says that you can always do so. This can in turn be overidden by a rule that specificly says it overides that rule.

The game breaks down if you try and change this formula as then you end up with realy wierd things like shooting during the opponents turn as the rules say you can shoot guns during the shooting phase and you somehow interpreet that to override the rule that says that you cant normal do anything during the opponents turn.

CoolKidRoc
14-03-2010, 14:54
For that to be true it would have to say 'that you can always assault' for it to negate all other rules involving assault apart from the one specified.

Other rules the Assault Vehicle rule does note negate:
Firing a rapid fire weapon.
Firing on a diffrent target.
Target outside of range of assault.
etc

If you actualy were correct, then those rules would also be voided by the Assault Vehicle rule.

Its quite simple. 40k rules are written in a such a way that you may be told that you can do something, this is in turn overwritten by other rules that say that you cant do that in specific situations. For a rule to overide such a restriction, then it has to either refeer to that restriction (see Assault vehicle rule refeering to the rule against assaulting from a vehicle that has moved) or use the word 'always'. This can in turn be voided by a rule saying that you cant do something, even if it says that you can always do so. This can in turn be overidden by a rule that specificly says it overides that rule.

The game breaks down if you try and change this formula as then you end up with realy wierd things like shooting during the opponents turn as the rules say you can shoot guns during the shooting phase and you somehow interpreet that to override the rule that says that you cant normal do anything during the opponents turn.

Well this might all well and mute if what others are saying is true about there being a spot in the codex saying they can't assault from a deep striking vehicle as I was quoting from the current SM codex.

But if those rules aren't there then the assault rules would over ride the deep strike restriction. Let's take it in little steps.

Vehicle Deepstrike - you can't assault because it has deepstriked and it has moved.
Unit Disembarks - it is now allowed to assault as any restriction on the unit have been removed for assaulting.
Unit Fires Rapid Fire Weapons - Restriction placed back on.
Unit Targets a Different Unit - Unit Can Still Assault unit it fired at but no other unit as usual.
Assault Target is out of Range - The movement restriction is still in place and therefore can not assault it.

So yes, Disembarking removes any restrictions at the time of disembarkation but otherwise you always have to follow the normal restrictions.

But like others have said this might be a mute point as there may be text in the actual codex saying you can't.




* * *


Yeah so I just confirmed that they can't because they added text saying so. So no worries on that, but if that text wasn't there I'd they wold be able to ;)

massey
14-03-2010, 15:10
It's a moot point, not a mute point. Mute means it can't talk.

LususNaturae
14-03-2010, 15:13
Where did you imagination read the words Deep Strike in your quote? I dont see how you claim it lists Deep Strike when the words Deep Strike isnt even in there at all!

EDIT: Maybe I should read on to the next page before replying?

CoolKidRoc
14-03-2010, 15:24
It's a moot point, not a mute point. Mute means it can't talk.

Sorry.... Looks like I loose this debate :P

Oh I mean lose lol...

Ianos
14-03-2010, 15:40
I would also like to further drive home that the 200pt Storm Raven isn't just paying for an AV 12 skimmer w/ Assault ramp. It also has:

- REAR ARMOR 12 (this is huge)
- Resistance to Melta


WUT!? If these are also in, its really getting ludicrus, i mean come on! Why not just give it av14 and living metal while they where at it?

CoolKidRoc
14-03-2010, 15:41
And don't forget it get's PotMS.

Yeah, it is getting way Ludicrus... and that's why I don't get why people think it would be insane for Eldar to get some kind of Assault Ramp like device, power, or upgrade. lol...

Znail
14-03-2010, 15:49
But if those rules aren't there then the assault rules would over ride the deep strike restriction. Let's take it in little steps.

Vehicle Deepstrike - you can't assault because it has deepstriked and it has moved.
Unit Disembarks - it is now allowed to assault as any restriction on the unit have been removed for assaulting.
Unit Fires Rapid Fire Weapons - Restriction placed back on.
Unit Targets a Different Unit - Unit Can Still Assault unit it fired at but no other unit as usual.
Assault Target is out of Range - The movement restriction is still in place and therefore can not assault it.

So yes, Disembarking removes any restrictions at the time of disembarkation but otherwise you always have to follow the normal restrictions.

These steps or 'flags' of may or may not assault are not in the actual 40k rules. It simply doesnt work like that. When you arrive at the assault phase then you simply check all relevant rules and if everyone says that you may assault, then you can do so. If even a single rule say that you may not, then you need another rule that specificly counters that rule.

For instance if we have a SM Captain with Terminator Armor and a Combi-plasma deepstriking. He shoots his plasma at a nearby unit. then he wishes to assault, may he do that?

He is an infantry unit, thats a yes.
He deepstriked, thats a no.
He shot a rapidfire weapon, thats a no, but countered by the Relentless rule that says he can fire a rapidfire weapon and assault.

So he had two rules that prevented him from assaulting, one of those was countered, but it still left one limit that prevents him from doing so. It doesnt matter that he shot his gun after he Deepstriked as Relentless wont clear anything else then the limit placed by Rapidfire. This is exactly the same as the Assault Vehicle rule and Disembarking.

CoolKidRoc
14-03-2010, 15:55
It's a moot point, not a mute point. Mute means it can't talk.


These steps or 'flags' of may or may not assault are not in the actual 40k rules. It simply doesnt work like that. When you arrive at the assault phase then you simply check all relevant rules and if everyone says that you may assault, then you can do so. If even a single rule say that you may not, then you need another rule that specificly counters that rule.

For instance if we have a SM Captain with Terminator Armor and a Combi-plasma deepstriking. He shoots his plasma at a nearby unit. then he wishes to assault, may he do that?

He is an infantry unit, thats a yes.
He deepstriked, thats a no.
He shot a rapidfire weapon, thats a no, but countered by the Relentless rule that says he can fire a rapidfire weapon and assault.

So he had two rules that prevented him from assaulting, one of those was countered, but it still left one limit that prevents him from doing so. It doesnt matter that he shot his gun after he Deepstriked as Relentless wont clear anything else then the limit placed by Rapidfire. This is exactly the same as the Assault Vehicle rule and Disembarking.

This is the last time I'll comment on this particular comment, not because I don't like debating the rules but because it is off topic to the OT.

Relentless gives a specific circumstance of what it is over-riding, where assault vehicle do not. If it said units disembarking may ignore vehicle movement for qualifications of assault then I would comepletely agree with you. But it does not, it simply says units that units that disembark may assault in the same turn, and so with out any other wording you be able to do so from a deep striking vehicle. But as there is other wording that is in the BA codex, which isn't in the SM codex this is a moot (thanks massey) point and if you want to continue to debate the syntax of it should be taken to the rules forum.

Where I will gladly chime in and give my opinion on the matter. :)

Ianos
14-03-2010, 16:02
And don't forget it get's PotMS.

Yeah, it is getting way Ludicrus... and that's why I don't get why people think it would be insane for Eldar to get some kind of Assault Ramp like device, power, or upgrade. lol...

You know what really grind my gears mate?

A marine chapter gets all fast vehicles and the most ridiculus tank ever and we are DISCUSSING if an assault ramp equivalent on Eldar would be fair.

However, if Eldar ever got something even remotely close to what the BAs got, then warseer would be consumed by Khorne in an orgy of violent nerdrage...

CoolKidRoc
14-03-2010, 16:06
You know what really grind my gears mate?

A marine chapter gets all fast vehicles and the most ridiculus tank ever and we are DISCUSSING if an assault ramp equivalent on Eldar would be fair.

However, if Eldar ever got something even remotely close to what the BAs got, then warseer would be consumed by Khorne in an orgy of violent nerdrage...

Lol, exactly, I mean just use this thread as an example, people are fuming about whether it would even be thinkable for eldar to have an assault ramp.

And I didn't even say anything like free ramps on all there vehicles, or even that it had to be on an existing vehicle, just whether if eldar should get something along those lines and there are those who are very much opposed to it.

I can't see why considering almost every other race has a vehicle they can assault out of, except I think tau. So why leave the most technologically advance race out of it? Because that's what DE do evidently lol....

I'm not mad that BA got it, I'm just disappointed that they got something for so cheap (points wise).

Corrode
14-03-2010, 21:45
WUT!? If these are also in, its really getting ludicrus, i mean come on! Why not just give it av14 and living metal while they where at it?

Lootas laugh at the armour 12 flying box in the sky that can never, ever hide, just like they laugh at Rhinos and Chimeras and Valkyries nowadays. AV12 doesn't need melta to crack.

Amusingly the resistance to melta means they hit on basic S8 and lascannons hit on S9. As far as I'm aware lasers work by applying heat to a point... to which the Stormraven is apparently 'resistant'.

Deus Mechanicus
14-03-2010, 21:56
Just add to the Fleet rule that all transports are treated as open-topped for mounting and dismounting.

Done.

Hello Kayvaan Shrike mech army!

Ianos
14-03-2010, 22:48
Lootas laugh at the armour 12 flying box in the sky that can never, ever hide, just like they laugh at Rhinos and Chimeras and Valkyries nowadays. AV12 doesn't need melta to crack.

So if Eldar got falcons and serpents with energy field, all weapons counting as defensive (and could be fired at 24" move), assault ramp, wraithlord transit, deep strike, with an overhaul in the heavy weapons like lances being for instance str9 ap1 (to compensate 2 ass cannons+melta+hellstrikes), all that at 200 points maximum, everything would be ok, right?

CoolKidRoc
14-03-2010, 23:11
I'd be down with it ;) As long as I get 12 all around armor also lol.

Emeraldw
15-03-2010, 00:31
So if Eldar got falcons and serpents with energy field, all weapons counting as defensive (and could be fired at 24" move), assault ramp, wraithlord transit, deep strike, with an overhaul in the heavy weapons like lances being for instance str9 ap1 (to compensate 2 ass cannons+melta+hellstrikes), all that at 200 points maximum, everything would be ok, right?

I would take a couple! :D

Yeah, assault ramps on eldar troops who aren't even THAT good at killing and are easy to squish? Hardly game breaking.

Corrode
15-03-2010, 00:32
So if Eldar got falcons and serpents with energy field, all weapons counting as defensive (and could be fired at 24" move), assault ramp, wraithlord transit, deep strike, with an overhaul in the heavy weapons like lances being for instance str9 ap1 (to compensate 2 ass cannons+melta+hellstrikes), all that at 200 points maximum, everything would be ok, right?

Energy field is better than the anti-melta rule (it also reduces weapon strength, remember), though I'll admit it doesn't work from the rear.
The Stormraven is a Fast vehicle, that isn't the same as 'all weapons count as defensive' and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
The transport capacity is a little silly but yet to be determined as regards balance; most likely it's going to be fine (you're looking at 400-700ts for the Stormraven, an effective assault unit, and the Dreadnought).
Carrying a Wraithlord? Sure why not.
Deep strike cancels out the assault ramp and leaves your expensive, low-armoured flyer very near to your enemy's heavy weapons without the benefit of a cover save. A deep striking Stormraven with a Dreadnought and assaulty squad inside is basically 600~ points of sitting duck.
The Blood Strike missiles are one shot, and the various weapons are going to require either moving slowly or using relatively few of them. That's not quite the same as a pair of S9 AP1 lances (seriously, an AP1 weapon which will glance any tank in the game on a 3+ at worst, 'counting as defensive at all speeds' according to your earlier comment?).

Your hypothetical Wave Serpent is pretty ridiculous because you don't seem to have any appreciation for balancing factors, like the sheer expense of the unit. You frame it as '200pts maximum' which doesn't account for the cost of all the things going inside the transport (hell, I forgot about ICs; any of them joining the squad inside could potentially make the unit around 800pts).

In short, I think the idea you have in your head about what a Stormraven can do (OMG IT'S 200PTS GONNA HAVE DREADNOUGHTS AND MULTI-MELTAS UP IN MY FACE ARRGHH) and what it's really capable of (a fair application of force, dropping a lot of threats into one position, and abusing a unit or two at short range) are quite different and a lot of your upset is coming from that. I'd relax a little.

Hellebore
15-03-2010, 00:51
I love how the eldar, epitome of quick strike in and out attacks are being told they can't have assault ramps because an upgrade to a vehicle that allows them to quick strike in and out fast isn't 'in keeping with their background'. :rolleyes:

If there is one thing that DOES fit the eldar lightning attack method of war, it's the ability to deploy units quickly and accurately from fast moving transports, not have them standing around with their thumb in their butts.

But I suppose all these goodies are only appropriate for space marines, like everything else these days.

Replace the Falcon with a storm raven and I would be very happy when playing with eldar (I'd also like one in my puppy list too...). I'd much rather have a storm raven than a Falcon.

I'd also much rather have lasguns on guardians than shuriken catapults, which just goes to show how utter crap the shuriken catapult is when used by a guardian.

hellebore

Bunnahabhain
15-03-2010, 01:56
I love how the eldar, epitome of quick strike in and out attacks are being told they can't have assault ramps because an upgrade to a vehicle that allows them to quick strike in and out fast isn't 'in keeping with their background'. :rolleyes:....

But I suppose all these goodies are only appropriate for space marines, like everything else these days.



At least the Valkyrie, although fast, has been well established in the background, and previous books, is highly dangerous and inelegant to depart from at speed, and if Guard are not allowed a massive and unsubtle application of fire-power, then who is? It doesn't feel like it stands on Eldar toes too much..

Ianos
15-03-2010, 05:37
@Bunnahabhain:The valkyrie is just better than the serpent while being also fast. Now IG can be equally fast to Eldar/DE but with more firepower and gimmicks, what the heck do Eldar have to distinguish themselves in game based on the background?

@Corrode: I do imagine that a storm raven is 200 poins plus the units in it. I also tried to make an analogy in Eldar standards. Maybe not energy field and str9 ap1 lance or whatever, but just imagine Eldar having a stormraven equivalent, like 2 twin heavy 3 starcannons, one fusion and one shot lances and could shoot some of them on 24" move while just being immune to melta, with assault ramp.

I find it hilarious that the LR of 5th is stronger/tougher than the falcon of 4th and no problem, all the while people screamed and ate guts for the falcon of 4th. When marines and especially BAs who are great damage dealers, marines who are tougher, have better morale and are more versatile than the Eldar, get such a transport. Really, what in the world should the fast and agile Eldar have?

I mean why should i play my Eldar when my Blood Angels are equally fast (actually faster if we account move 24" and fire and assault ramp) and plain better, stronger, tougher and all around killers?

Ravenous
15-03-2010, 05:54
I think the real question in all of this is can they make the eldar list not suck without the need for farseers.

Like today my 152pt avengers flew up in their 110pt transport got out and bladestormed some marines. I killed 3.... which compared to an early game where I killed 7 because of doom, made me realize how overcosted alot of the eldar units are. Its like the whole army pays for how awesome the farseer buffs are, GW might as well make farseers 300pt pysker gods and drop the points on everything else. Scorpions are a great example, at 202pts for 10 infiltrating, move through cover T3 models is meh, both those abilities should come standard and not be paid for.

Besides all that I feel like marines and even guard are getting everything the eldar are/ should be, blood angels getting a speed boost doesnt bother me, psychic dreads, dread carrying multi transports that move and fire does, even if the storm raven sucks its like they just took something Eldar and gave it to marines, when dark angels come out all their vehicles with have crystal targeting matrix and holo fields. Blood talons especially pissed me off, since all the marine players made a stink when barroth had the ability with Ws7 and S4 while now its at Ws5/6 S6 with rerolls makes it okay.

Corrode
15-03-2010, 11:07
@Corrode: I do imagine that a storm raven is 200 poins plus the units in it. I also tried to make an analogy in Eldar standards. Maybe not energy field and str9 ap1 lance or whatever, but just imagine Eldar having a stormraven equivalent, like 2 twin heavy 3 starcannons, one fusion and one shot lances and could shoot some of them on 24" move while just being immune to melta, with assault ramp.

I wouldn't mind Eldar having a vehicle that was that good. My main point from earlier in the thread was:

a) People seemed to be suggesting Wave Serpents should just get an assault ramp, either free, for a slight points increase, or even a points decrease. Someone even suggested making the infantry cheaper to compensate. That seems to be to have been a fatal misunderstanding of what makes the Stormraven effective; by the time you've included all the crap that goes inside it it's more like 600-800pts.
b) There seem to be simultaneous threads of thought ongoing in the thread - that Wave Serpents need to be cheaper, that Eldar need assault ramps somewhere, and that Eldar should get a vehicle on the scale of the Stormraven. I am ok with Wave Serpents being cheaper (they're good, but not that good - 80pts might be more reflective of their worth in this edition). I am ok with Eldar having assault ramps, even on the Serpent (although in that case it probably shouldn't be getting cheaper). I am ok with Eldar getting a new vehicle, even one that's quite nasty in combat (although it might invalidate the Falcon a bit; a vehicle with better transport capacity and better firepower and a bunch of other rules?)

The points I wanted to contend with were that Eldar should get one that was more or less the same as the Stormraven to 'compensate' for its inclusion (if so, why just Eldar?), and that Eldar should get ALL of the above. The Wave Serpent getting cheaper (whether by itself or via its cargo) whilst gaining more abilities seemed counter-intuitive, too; there's a massive gap between 'gets smoke launchers and searchlights' (basically 10pts of upgrades in previous editions) free, and 'gets spirit stones and star engines effectively free'. You also have to consider the other factors - the various Eldar vehicle upgrades are very, very good, particularly holofields, and 15pts for something like an Eldar Stormraven to have holofields as well might tip it to the point of ridiculousness.

tl;dr an Eldar vehicle with an assault ramp (whether it's a Serpent or a new vehicle entirely) is fine, an Eldar vehicle with lots of big guns that flits about the place is fine, an Eldar vehicle which can transport Wraithlords is fine. Putting them all together into one vehicle, stating it should be 'the same price or cheaper', and claiming it costs '200pts MAX' when in reality that doesn't account for even a third of what it costs or what it can do, is just disingenuous.


I find it hilarious that the LR of 5th is stronger/tougher than the falcon of 4th and no problem, all the while people screamed and ate guts for the falcon of 4th. When marines and especially BAs who are great damage dealers, marines who are tougher, have better morale and are more versatile than the Eldar, get such a transport. Really, what in the world should the fast and agile Eldar have?

I don't think the 5th edition Land Raider really compares to the 4th ed. Falcon. The LR has always been a tough nut to crack, although when you could wreck on a glance it was a little weaker. The 4th ed. Falcon was irritating because at a time when most other vehicles were death traps it was able to fly about more or less with impunity, and even if you did manage to do some damage you'd very often end up stunning it (which it then ignored). LRs can take a lot of fire, but stunning one renders it mostly ineffective (and they cost a little less than double what a DAVU Falcon did).


I mean why should i play my Eldar when my Blood Angels are equally fast (actually faster if we account move 24" and fire and assault ramp) and plain better, stronger, tougher and all around killers?

You cannot move 24" and assault ramp out in the blasť manner you describe. Moving flat out disallows the unit from disembarking normally; if they do decide to drop out there's a decent chance they'll either scatter off course or do themselves some serious damage.

As for the BA being 'better all around' - well, they're really not. The Codex as it stands at the moment appears to be more or less balance; the list I'm playing around with is one that I wouldn't mind taking on with either my Orks or my vanilla Marines, and even the scarier lists that have been presented are pretty killable (although the difficulty is that people often post speculative lists which are 'around' 1500 or 2000 or whatever points level, which makes them hard to judge).

Dr.Clock
15-03-2010, 14:41
I'm with Cortrode on this one.

There's a really good reason that the BA designers didn't just give the rhino an assault ramp, even as an option.

More eldar vehicles? I'm right beside you, but it should not be a widely available dedicated transport IMO. I like the serpent for what it is and after so long, it isn't an assault tank 'in my mind'.

Nobody else has access to flying tank dedicated transports. That should remain the focus of an eldar mech list: using tanks to outflank before opening fire at range. One or two assault tanks isn't going to break the list, I agree, but tank assaults should probably be used to support existing drop-and-shoot strategies instead of another boring alpha-strike option.

This option would also make the falcon essentially obsolete. I remember when the model came out (it was a HUGE deal) and I desperately want them to be useful again. In fact, the stormraven reminds me of the days when I had the falcon datafax but no idea what it was supposed to look like) These days I never get much use out of them.

I'd like to see something that would make them true flying tanks... the cloudstrike squadron rules are wicked cool... powering up for lance strikes would make moving flat-out a little more appealing. An optional BS upgrade or targeting matrix to allow rerolls would make such a tank a true force to be reckoned with which, at very close to 200 points a pop, it needs to be.

An assault tank alone would be interesting, but is not the be-all end-all of things that would make the eldar awesome again. It probably falls to about fourth on my list of awesome. Of course, that's still quite a bit of awesome.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

elvinltl
15-03-2010, 16:58
It was unthinkable for Eldar to have Assault Vehicles when Rending was not yet Nerfed.

Please be aware that Rending has been nerfed and that the fabled Harlequins in Falcon are not as powerful as they used to be. So relax...

And if Eldar's Skimmer Tank moved 24" using turbo-boost or 36" with Star Engines, no way the GWS Designer will allow us to disembark our Banshees and assault.

Ianos
15-03-2010, 17:31
by the time you've included all the crap that goes inside it it's more like 600-800pts.

You don't have to include all that 'crap', you can have 3 ravens with just 10 man marines, assault or not. That will hardly be 400 points total. Did i compare the DAVU like this? I for example use Eldrad + dragons in it so with all the 'crap' in it costs 550ish points.



The points I wanted to contend with were that Eldar should get one that was more or less the same as the Stormraven to 'compensate' for its inclusion (if so, why just Eldar?), and that Eldar should get ALL of the above. The Wave Serpent getting cheaper (whether by itself or via its cargo) whilst gaining more abilities seemed counter-intuitive, too;

First of all i do not think anyone said that Eldar tanks should get all of the above whilst getting cheaper. As for myself i distinctly remember my falcon comparison. Imagine a falcon analogue for the raven, that's all. Imagine it being 200 points like the raven, how simple is that? Please don't go at the cargo comparisons again. Finally please just tell me, if BAs got all fast and skimmer and shooty and whatever, what would Eldar get to make them even faster and shootier on the move?


an Eldar vehicle with an assault ramp (whether it's a Serpent or a new vehicle entirely) is fine, an Eldar vehicle with lots of big guns that flits about the place is fine, an Eldar vehicle which can transport Wraithlords is fine. Putting them all together into one vehicle, stating it should be 'the same price or cheaper', and claiming it costs '200pts MAX' when in reality that doesn't account for even a third of what it costs or what it can do, is just disingenuous.

Why is it that in an Eldar army, which is supposed to be the 2nd fastest after DE army in 40k, a storm raven equivalent should cost 500+ points while in a marine army it costs 200?

I saw a lot of "the marines cost more so it will be ok", no they don't. Marines are all arounders, they can shoot assault, they are tough, have the best morale and can in most cases hit both tanks and infantry. Then the Eldar player buys 10 banshees, but they are strictly anti-MEQ melee with a t3 4+ save. So they need a serp (which basically will have a shuricannon, not much damage there) to get there. Once they do, if they where not shot down, had their hatch closed, managed their terrain check or whatever, they can finally kill 5 marines on charge. But oh they have doom and fortune (which can be stopped by other psyckers btw) and if you add in the exarch... they kill like 10 of them, so there you are. Problem is Eldar just used 400ish points to kill a tactical squad, whith a unit that is supposed to be the tactical squad killer by itself!

So here's the deal, Eldar are fragile, their specialists are just marginally better than the generalists of other armies. Simple example, banshees with full exarch vs termies. Cost the same, but termies kill more MEQ, can kill monstrous/tanks, can shoot, deep strike, are tougher, with the best moralle etc.
In order to make those specialists actually do more damage than the generalists, Eldar use pshychic powers, thing is a simple fortune/doom seer costs about another banshee squad for example. As such it's not toughness, or morale, or specialty that makes the Eldar more powerful game wise. Firepower, yes but at very close range, which again means paying that expensive serpent for those avengers and that falcon for those dragons, etc. They have essentially no real ranged AT, so its not the shooty aspect anyhow. So then the Eldar player thinks, "ok but i have speed, i have the fastest race!"

And then GW comes and says "speed? ahahahaha even the lowly mon-keigh are at least as fast!"



I don't think the 5th edition Land Raider really compares to the 4th ed. Falcon. The LR has always been a tough nut to crack, although when you could wreck on a glance it was a little weaker. The 4th ed. Falcon was irritating because at a time when most other vehicles were death traps it was able to fly about more or less with impunity, and even if you did manage to do some damage you'd very often end up stunning it (which it then ignored). LRs can take a lot of fire, but stunning one renders it mostly ineffective (and they cost a little less than double what a DAVU Falcon did).

First of all, stunning a LR does not make it ineffective, they to have extra armor, they also have POTMS. Second the classic falcon of fourth was scatter/shuri/spirit/holo/vectored so it costed 205 and the LR crusader of now costs 70 more. The LR is for the marines what the falcon is for the Eldar. Thing is in this edition not only is the LR virtually immune to str8-, it also gains cover (which in 4th only skimmers had the benefit of "cover").



You cannot move 24" and assault ramp out in the blasť manner you describe. Moving flat out disallows the unit from disembarking normally; if they do decide to drop out there's a decent chance they'll either scatter off course or do themselves some serious damage.

I did not describe flat out then charge, i know that cannot be done even with ramps. But fact is they can move flat one turn, shoot then next move 12" disembark 3" (2" + base) and charge 6". That is a 45" ground covered in 2 turns. It is essentially as if the marines are moving 22.5"/turn (almost flat out) while shooting and having cover. I also did not say that the deep stike or the grav chute are the be all end all, but they ARE extra abilities and ways to deploy if one needs to use them.


As for the BA being 'better all around' - well, they're really not. The Codex as it stands at the moment appears to be more or less balance; the list I'm playing around with is one that I wouldn't mind taking on with either my Orks or my vanilla Marines, and even the scarier lists that have been presented are pretty killable (although the difficulty is that people often post speculative lists which are 'around' 1500 or 2000 or whatever points level, which makes them hard to judge).

Marines are better all around, than Eldar, for the reasons described. Maybe the BA codex has some restrictions i have not yet seen. But from what i know up to now, they just look like assaulty marines with eldar speed, all the while no cost added.

But again i ask, if the more static, slow mon-keigh get all that stuff what the heck are Eldar supposed to get? I mean seriously, i pray DE will get at least 18" move and fire, super outflankers, better lances and virtual first turn assaults.

Dr.Clock
15-03-2010, 17:36
All of those are good points... nobody is saying it's 'unthinkable'... just that there are valid balance issues to be considered first.

The FOC exists for a reason... Having eldar assault vehicles take up a slot would limit the use of ridiculous builds from both a fluff and gaming perspective.

For the record: Land Raiders as dedicated transports IS ridiculous IMO. At least they cost an arm and a leg. Any dedicated assault transport for eldar is likely to cost a similar amount - and still be a bad idea.

Sure, pulling off assaults with Eldar is hard... if you run straight at the shootiest part of the opponent's line. Flanking moves remedy this considerably. With such fragile units, you cannot expect to just pile in indisicriminately. You have to draw the enemy out and then strike from surprising angles where he has weakened himself.

As soon as two elite eldar assault units can pull off 20+" charges from the out of sight, with nothing outside of two elites and an HQ spent at about 800 points, there is a problem. That formation SHOULD take up some Heavy support as well. FORCING people to choose between different options is different from ALLOWING them to choose between different option. There would literally never be a reason to field a stock wave-serpent for certain units ever again if there is not a significant difference both in capability, price, and disposition within the force. Forcing opponents to choose between shooty HS choices and one that would radically alter the effectiveness of assault troops will give rise to more variety in eldar lists. I hope we can all agree that this is a good thing.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Poseidal
15-03-2010, 17:37
They can't disembark after moving 24 or 36 anyway, so it'll be after 12 like everyone else.

Dr.Clock
15-03-2010, 18:17
12" skimmer move + 2" out the hatch + 6" charge + d6" fleet on some units = 20+".

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Corrode
15-03-2010, 18:22
You don't have to include all that 'crap', you can have 3 ravens with just 10 man marines, assault or not. That will hardly be 400 points total. Did i compare the DAVU like this? I for example use Eldrad + dragons in it so with all the 'crap' in it costs 550ish points.

But then it isn't very good. A Stormraven on its own is annoying, but no more so than a Valkyrie or Vendetta (it costs 70pts more and doesn't put out a lot more firepower; its strength is mostly in the transport capacity). 10 Marines is also not particularly scary; even if they've lucked out and gotten Red Thirst they're still just Marines. Eldrad + Dragons is an effective unit which can do a lot of damage; 10 Tactical/Assault Marines isn't really using the Stormraven to anything like its full potential, and it's a lot less scary than the prospect of something like Death Company + IC + Dreadnought. I can see your point, but in that particular comparison I'd be tempted to take the DAVU (or these days, more likely a Serpent).


First of all i do not think anyone said that Eldar tanks should get all of the above whilst getting cheaper. As for myself i distinctly remember my falcon comparison. Imagine a falcon analogue for the raven, that's all. Imagine it being 200 points like the raven, how simple is that? Please don't go at the cargo comparisons again. Finally please just tell me, if BAs got all fast and skimmer and shooty and whatever, what would Eldar get to make them even faster and shootier on the move?

It wasn't so much that any one person said all of the above, but there are a bunch of different people saying different things and all those goals can't go together. A Falcon-style Stormraven might not be bad; I can see Wraithlords dropping out of something like that.

I honestly have no idea what Eldar could do to be faster/shootier etc. but I'm not sure it's necessary that they be simply 'better.' Different, maybe. I'm not sure having the big steaming flier which blasts its way through things is really the way forward for a traditionally precision-based army.


Why is it that in an Eldar army, which is supposed to be the 2nd fastest after DE army in 40k, a storm raven equivalent should cost 500+ points while in a marine army it costs 200?

I didn't say it should. I think you're mixing up my point that the Stormraven with all the kit is going to be very expensive. I was also working from the basis of it being a Wave Serpent+1, and having the Energy Field and everything that implies.


I saw a lot of "the marines cost more so it will be ok", no they don't. Marines are all arounders, they can shoot assault, they are tough, have the best morale and can in most cases hit both tanks and infantry. Then the Eldar player buys 10 banshees, but they are strictly anti-MEQ melee with a t3 4+ save. So they need a serp (which basically will have a shuricannon, not much damage there) to get there. Once they do, if they where not shot down, had their hatch closed, managed their terrain check or whatever, they can finally kill 5 marines on charge. But oh they have doom and fortune (which can be stopped by other psyckers btw) and if you add in the exarch... they kill like 10 of them, so there you are. Problem is Eldar just used 400ish points to kill a tactical squad, whith a unit that is supposed to be the tactical squad killer by itself!

Well, that's kinda just how Eldar work. I mean, I can see why Eldar might need to be slightly cheaper, or less reliant on Farseers, but that has everything to do with the internal balance of the Eldar list and not a lot to do with Stormravens and their lack thereof. A Stormraven equivalent would only make the problem worse - now you've got an expensive skimmer (in an army which is already quite points-intensive) transporting an expensive squad, something with which Eldar are already unfortunately familiar.


First of all, stunning a LR does not make it ineffective, they to have extra armor, they also have POTMS. Second the classic falcon of fourth was scatter/shuri/spirit/holo/vectored so it costed 205 and the LR crusader of now costs 70 more. The LR is for the marines what the falcon is for the Eldar. Thing is in this edition not only is the LR virtually immune to str8-, it also gains cover (which in 4th only skimmers had the benefit of "cover").

They don't get it base (I recognise that you pay for spirit stones too), and extra armour brings a Raider up to 265, 275 with a melta - never mind the squad inside. I appreciate that I'd forgotten how much stuff was on a fourth edition Falcon (I didn't play that edition after all, so I'm working backwards).



I did not describe flat out then charge, i know that cannot be done even with ramps. But fact is they can move flat one turn, shoot then next move 12" disembark 3" (2" + base) and charge 6". That is a 45" ground covered in 2 turns. It is essentially as if the marines are moving 22.5"/turn (almost flat out) while shooting and having cover. I also did not say that the deep stike or the grav chute are the be all end all, but they ARE extra abilities and ways to deploy if one needs to use them.

And as has been said before, they've either done all that to shoot one gun a turn at your army, or to drop a ton of expensive stuff pretty much unsupported in front of every gun you have. Even with a cover save the Stormraven is going to have a difficult time functioning unsupported.


But again i ask, if the more static, slow mon-keigh get all that stuff what the heck are Eldar supposed to get? I mean seriously, i pray DE will get at least 18" move and fire, super outflankers, better lances and virtual first turn assaults.

It'll be interesting to see what happens, I'm sure.

CoolKidRoc
15-03-2010, 18:23
12" skimmer move + 2" out the hatch + 6" charge + d6" fleet on some units = 20+".

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

But why is this such a problem, SM can do it with Fleeting Termies, BA can do this with Dreadnaughts. It seem like being able to do so with a small elite choice wouldn't be that big a deal. Especially with the weeknesses of them. And the amount of difficult terrain on the boards these days that 20+ can easily fall down by quite a bit.

Corrode
15-03-2010, 18:28
But why is this such a problem, SM can do it with Fleeting Termies, BA can do this with Dreadnaughts. It seem like being able to do so with a small elite choice wouldn't be that big a deal. Especially with the weeknesses of them. And the amount of difficult terrain on the boards these days that 20+ can easily fall down by quite a bit.

More to the point an entire Ork army can do it; a Trukk can move 13", disembark 3" (accounting for base size), Fleet up to 6", and assault 6". Stuff on a 40mm (Ghazgkull, Meganobz) get an extra inch on the disembark for a maximum assault of 29". In this day and age it's not hard for an entire army to be across the board and in assault by turn 2.

CoolKidRoc
15-03-2010, 18:30
More to the point an entire Ork army can do it; a Trukk can move 13", disembark 3" (accounting for base size), Fleet up to 6", and assault 6". Stuff on a 40mm (Ghazgkull, Meganobz) get an extra inch on the disembark for a maximum assault of 29". In this day and age it's not hard for an entire army to be across the board and in assault by turn 2.

Not hard for everyone but Eldar, Tau and Necrons ;)

Who some would argue are the most technological Advanced races out there lol...

Dr.Clock
15-03-2010, 20:29
I'm NOT arguing that they can't/shouldn't ever do it. It's not a problem until it becomes clearly the best option available in most circumstances.

We should have learned our lesson from last edition... making one vehicle way above others in terms of utility makes for boring lists. We see the inverse of that as the falcon was nerfed in the new edition... and now used as a glorified taxi, if at all.

I'm saying that if we want something in the way of an assault skimmer, be prepared for it to a)cost quite a bit and b)take up an FOC slot. This is what the Stormraven is: a unit that, if taken, will have serious consequences on the number of other things you'll fit in the list.

I actually think it's a pretty cool idea. I just don't want eldar to start playing just like orks except that we're faster with tougher vehicles and fewer numbers but better equipment and training... or just like dark eldar except that our skimmers aren't open topped: the difference in warfare style should amount to more than 'better technology and fewer numbers' in the first instance and 'not open topped' in the second.

Eldar should also be focussing on maneuver for advantage and putting down significant firepower... not acting like orcs and charging directly into the enemy with no regard for their own safety.

BA/orks/DE are assault armies: it is not surprising that they are really good at assault. Eldar are not an assault army. You can build an eldar assault-focussed army, and should probably be able to build a slightly better one, but such builds should still look and feel like an eldar army.

Dedicated assault transports for eldar is a bad idea. HS or Fast Attack assault transports for eldar COULD be a good idea.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Ianos
15-03-2010, 22:25
But then it isn't very good. A Stormraven on its own is annoying, but no more so than a Valkyrie or Vendetta (it costs 70pts more and doesn't put out a lot more firepower; its strength is mostly in the transport capacity). 10 Marines is also not particularly scary; even if they've lucked out and gotten Red Thirst they're still just Marines. Eldrad + Dragons is an effective unit which can do a lot of damage; 10 Tactical/Assault Marines isn't really using the Stormraven to anything like its full potential, and it's a lot less scary than the prospect of something like Death Company + IC + Dreadnought. I can see your point, but in that particular comparison I'd be tempted to take the DAVU (or these days, more likely a Serpent).

First of all, if 2 twin ass cannons + melta+ hellstrikes combined with POTMS are not considered a lot of firepower then we are just hidding behind our fingers here. Then, why exactly are 10 marines not scary? In the BA example 10 assault marines with a clawed sarge will kill about 4 MEQ on charge, that is on 220 point mark according to C:SM, when the about 200 point banshees squad will kill 5.8. This means that plain assault marines are 70% as good at killing MEQs as the specialized anti-MEQ banshees are. BUT the same marines can be the doom of medium/light infantry and can also have flamers or plasma pistols.

Let's expand this a little further, the banshees are mounted on a serpent with twin lance (to compensate for the helstrikes and melta of the raven), shurican and stones. This is about 350 points. The said marines mount up on a raven, which is about 440 points. So for just 90 points more, the combo unit can reliably kill anything but nobikers and councils and maybe LRs. The Eldar combo costing as much as 80% of the marine combo can kill only a combat squad and maybe a tank (to be more precice, the lance has about 13% chane to immob a raider with no cover, while the assault cannons alone have 10%).

So yeah, i do find even assault marines scary in that thing.

As for Eldrad and dragons, they are a unit which can kill a tank and maybe an MC if it has no cover, fullstop. Eldar guides the 5 dragons and himself, they unload and have roughly 50% chance to stop the stormraven for example. And then the dragons for sure are dead...

As for you wanting the falcon, i would definitely take the stormraven for my Eldar, why pay the same points for not even half the power, transportation versatility, speed and firepower?



It wasn't so much that any one person said all of the above, but there are a bunch of different people saying different things and all those goals can't go together. A Falcon-style Stormraven might not be bad; I can see Wraithlords dropping out of something like that.

I honestly have no idea what Eldar could do to be faster/shootier etc. but I'm not sure it's necessary that they be simply 'better.' Different, maybe. I'm not sure having the big steaming flier which blasts its way through things is really the way forward for a traditionally precision-based army.

I absofreakinglutely agree with you. Neither i want to have an army with all out advantages and no weaknesses, especially Eldar. Maybe we do need a general buff. But the real issue is not just buffing here and there with points reductions. What really ticks me of is the fact that because of what other races are getting Eldar are losing their uniqueness, but i will explain that further along. On the "simply better" part let me add these:

a)shouldn't the melee aspect warriors be TRUE specialized killers and not just marginally better? I mean really, and here comes another example, marines with plasma, melta, combi-melta double tap vs. MEQ and kill 4.26 which is almost 3/4 of the damage the banshees can do in ASSAULT. They do this without the need to assault and with this setup they can kill from infantry to rhinos to MCs and even LRs with a little luck. Aspects therefore do need a buff on their specialty, like ws5+ for all aspects and furious charge on banshees, poison for scorpions etc.
b)Eldar heavy weapons suck. Years of whinning by anti-eldarists across the internet succeded in that. If nids have zoans with str10 ap1 lances then something must be don for the Eldar ones as well, maybe str9 or ap1 or both and they really have to lower the freaking costs on Eldar weapons...
c)Guardians should have weapons batteries and should cost less, i won't even go into shuricat discussion.
d)Hawks need redesign.
e)All our tanks are too expensive for what they do.


I didn't say it should. I think you're mixing up my point that the Stormraven with all the kit is going to be very expensive. I was also working from the basis of it being a Wave Serpent+1, and having the Energy Field and everything that implies.

The energy field protects from lascannons and railguns. I would take minus that plus 12 rear and 4 exits anyday. Dr.Clock wrote that Eldar can assault 20"+ which is simply not true. When the serpent unloads, troops come from the back which is 7" away. That reduces the movement to 13"+ and even with turning (which in the UK GTs and in Greece is not allowed to gain movement) you have to get exposed. Ultimately to reach that 20"+ you have to turn the tanks rear to the enemy. As if that was not enough, if one boosts close enough to ensure a charge, then it is very likely that his opponent will block the rear hatch.



Well, that's kinda just how Eldar work. I mean, I can see why Eldar might need to be slightly cheaper, or less reliant on Farseers, but that has everything to do with the internal balance of the Eldar list and not a lot to do with Stormravens and their lack thereof. A Stormraven equivalent would only make the problem worse - now you've got an expensive skimmer (in an army which is already quite points-intensive) transporting an expensive squad, something with which Eldar are already unfortunately familiar.

Eldar already have expensive skimmers transporting expensive squads. It's not about getting the raven though, it's about becoming distinct again and getting the BENEFIT of being specialized and fast.




They don't get it base (I recognise that you pay for spirit stones too), and extra armour brings a Raider up to 265, 275 with a melta - never mind the squad inside. I appreciate that I'd forgotten how much stuff was on a fourth edition Falcon (I didn't play that edition after all, so I'm working backwards).

I calculated for a 275 raider mate. The 4th ed falcon was 205, but hey that was cheesy:shifty:. But hey BAs get the uber-skimmer of all time (which fits their background of being faster and shootier than Eldar:wtf:) and A-OK...




And as has been said before, they've either done all that to shoot one gun a turn at your army, or to drop a ton of expensive stuff pretty much unsupported in front of every gun you have. Even with a cover save the Stormraven is going to have a difficult time functioning unsupported.

The storm raven has more firepower than 2 preds and will always fire a gun while having cover, even if stunned.


It'll be interesting to see what happens, I'm sure.

They better do some justice, i am sick of marines doing everything anyone can do, while just being overall better.


But why is this such a problem, SM can do it with Fleeting Termies, BA can do this with Dreadnaughts. It seem like being able to do so with a small elite choice wouldn't be that big a deal. Especially with the weeknesses of them. And the amount of difficult terrain on the boards these days that 20+ can easily fall down by quite a bit.

Suddenly everyone has become fast these days, go figure...


More to the point an entire Ork army can do it; a Trukk can move 13", disembark 3" (accounting for base size), Fleet up to 6", and assault 6". Stuff on a 40mm (Ghazgkull, Meganobz) get an extra inch on the disembark for a maximum assault of 29". In this day and age it's not hard for an entire army to be across the board and in assault by turn 2.

Oh relax, Eldar have fleet of poof!:p

Seriously though, everyone now runs, IG go 3d6 and have valkyries, Orks also have nobikers, Marines who outflank and fleet and fly in superskimmers, Nids with 3d6 fleet/pods/flank, and there goes the speed of the Eldar, down the freaking drain.


Not hard for everyone but Eldar, Tau and Necrons ;)

Who some would argue are the most technological Advanced races out there lol...

It seems that technology and fluff has nothing to do with who gets what anymore. Especially for the poster boyz.

Corrode
16-03-2010, 00:17
Yeah I have to agree that I'm not really sure what they can do to make Eldar much faster. Modern 40k is a very mobile game and with Valkyries, Stormravens, and even the humble Trukk flitting about the place I can't see what they're going to be able to do to make Eldar 'fast' without also making them gamebreaking (not to say that Eldar being fast would be gamebreaking, they should be, but they've surely reached the limit of what can be done without crossing that line).

Hellebore
16-03-2010, 00:24
I thought they had with characters stats with the space wolf special characters, then they released Mephiston.

So it's up in the air as far as I am concerned. Unless the above was done on purpose to push marines further and they won't do it to xenos armies.

Hellebore

Iracundus
16-03-2010, 00:32
I wouldn't say it a deliberate sinister attempt to push marines above all else, but rather the creeping effect of having that many more variant marines being released. Each release ends up having gimmicks to promote them, and at some point the gimmick or combination of gimmicks with units ends up eroding into another army/faction's area or neutralizing another faction's advantage/special rules. Since there are more variant marine army releases than xenos releases, the odds of this happening are greater for marine armies than vice versa.

Corrode
16-03-2010, 00:43
I thought they had with characters stats with the space wolf special characters, then they released Mephiston.

So it's up in the air as far as I am concerned. Unless the above was done on purpose to push marines further and they won't do it to xenos armies.

Hellebore

There's a difference between fluff-breaking and game-breaking. Mephiston is pretty well-balance for the purposes of gaming. Whether or not he works fluffwise is up to those who care about such things.

Iracundus
16-03-2010, 00:46
There's a difference between fluff-breaking and game-breaking. Mephiston is pretty well-balance for the purposes of gaming. Whether or not he works fluffwise is up to those who care about such things.

Having something over the top in terms of stats and background is a bad thing even if the points themselves are "balanced".

One could make up a monstrosity of a character capable of annihilating an opposing army and point cost it correctly at thousands of points equivalent to opposing armies, but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

Ravenous
16-03-2010, 04:00
12" skimmer move + 2" out the hatch + 6" charge + d6" fleet on some units = 20+".

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

+ base size and in the case of the dread is close to 3"

sabreu
16-03-2010, 04:04
Anyone else realize surrounding a stormraven and wrecking it will give you an easier time killing the dreadnaught and squad inside than actually having to face them? As a skimmer, it will be on one of those valk bases, which is quite easy to swamp in comparison to a land raider's foot print.

Dr.Clock
16-03-2010, 06:26
Sure... the game got faster...

But the board is only so big.

Essentially, the problem is that these 'gunships' are sneaking on to the field... and they've all got special rules: grav chutes, assault ramps... whatever.

Basically, I think we're seeing something similar to the proliferation of special rules for infantry that were later consolidated.

Eldar all about more than going fast. They are about operating at full capacity while doing it and specializing in particular areas.

I'm all for bringing back 'pop-up' attacks with a move-shoot-move system.

Allow eldar tanks to move up to 6" in the assault phase: and keep the existing shooting rules.

This would give you the ability to fire your serpent weaponry at 12" and you'd get up to another 12" move to get up the board. Alternatively, you can fire a falcon turret at full effect moving 12", but will have a little harder time sniping for side armour given the firing takes place at 6".

Things don't get a tonne faster, but everything gets more nimble and you can keep your guns firing on the move.

In addition, tanks would be able to move after their units disembark to block reprisals, and move off a little once everyone gets back in.

This isn't about speed, it's about accuracy and flexibility. Using vehicles IN the assault phase rather than FOR the assault phase...

Essentially, if everyone got faster (which I'm okay with...), we need to be harder to tie down.

Just a thought...

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Ianos
16-03-2010, 16:36
Sure... the game got faster...

But the board is only so big.

GW should have thought about that earlier on...


Essentially, the problem is that these 'gunships' are sneaking on to the field... and they've all got special rules: grav chutes, assault ramps... whatever.

Basically, I think we're seeing something similar to the proliferation of special rules for infantry that were later consolidated.

Except that these gunships affect the infantry they carry and the other infantry they kill too.


Eldar all about more than going fast. They are about operating at full capacity while doing it and specializing in particular areas.

Totally agree, but i think we should be faster while we are at it anyway. As for the specialization part, right now it's also severely lacking.


I'm all for bringing back 'pop-up' attacks with a move-shoot-move system.

Allow eldar tanks to move up to 6" in the assault phase: and keep the existing shooting rules.

This would give you the ability to fire your serpent weaponry at 12" and you'd get up to another 12" move to get up the board. Alternatively, you can fire a falcon turret at full effect moving 12", but will have a little harder time sniping for side armour given the firing takes place at 6".

Things don't get a tonne faster, but everything gets more nimble and you can keep your guns firing on the move.

In addition, tanks would be able to move after their units disembark to block reprisals, and move off a little once everyone gets back in.

Pop-up attacks are all but useless in a TLOS environment. Moving 12 to fire all guns is only a mild improvement since there is no cover save. No, i want Eldar and DE to move 18" and fire all guns. I want DE to move 18" and assault and CE to have cheaper serpents to make star engines easy to place. Then star engines should operate in the shooting or assault phase as you essentially propose. And all that should just be the begining, if marines can fleet and IG run 3d6 Eldar must at LEAST fleet 3d6. I just wouldn't accept anything less.


This isn't about speed, it's about accuracy and flexibility. Using vehicles IN the assault phase rather than FOR the assault phase...

Essentially, if everyone got faster (which I'm okay with...), we need to be harder to tie down.

We will not be harder to tie down just because we fire one more expensive nerfed gun from 12" without cover or by moving tanks in the assault phase. Eldar need more speed, specialization better weapons to be brought back as the race of lightning alpha strikes.

Dr.Clock
16-03-2010, 16:59
Sure thing... I'd love to see all of that...

Maybe 6" was too conservative... make it 12" in the assault phase?? Eldar then move 18" firing full effect, 24" with one gun and a maximum of 36"?

Sounds decent... but would probably make every tank cost incorporate star engines...

I think eldar should ALL get fleet now... while banshees and harlies should get 3d6 and everyone else 2d6 except for Dark reapers... they should not be fleet. I'm not sure about them all suddenly becoming the same speed. I kind of like a bit of variation.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Cosmid
16-03-2010, 19:29
Most Eldar infantry already have fleet but 5th ed fleet rule does nothing for shooting units. Giving every Eldar infantry fleet would only really be an upgrade for striking scorpions and Eldrad. Most units it would do literally nothing for because they already have it and for the remainder it is useless.

Personally I think the fleet change was poorly done. Giving all infantry run is fine, but making fleet a minor upgrade that only works for assault units was dumb. It needed to make their run better and allow assaults. Something like "always runs 6 inches and can assault after doing so" which would be useful for non-assault units and good for assault units. As is fleet units can reliably assault about 2" further than non-fleet units. Sure they *might* get to assault up to six extra inches, but you have to pretty much commit to the assault before you know if they roll well on run so counting on anything more than 2" means you have a very significant chance of ending up hanging out in the open right next to whatever you were hoping to attack. Particularly for Eldar a unit out in the open is a dead unit.

Anyhow all this discussion has me thinking that the "warp gate" serpent upgrade I described on like page 2 should probably be in the 25-50 point range. Not sure where exactly, but I feel 25 is probably low, and anything over 50 is high.

Souleater
17-03-2010, 09:26
To me this is just confirmation that 5th ed tastes more and more like 2nd Ed. Marines are getting everybody elses toys (while stealing toys off each other).

I hope DE get some kind of 'heavy raider' with as much firepower, speed, assault capability, toughness and troop capacity as this puppy :D

Znail
17-03-2010, 13:56
The envy is strong in this thread. It always make me wonder why people seems to think their own codex is always the worst ever. I guess its human to think you are the best ever general and thus any loss is due to unfairness in codexes.

LususNaturae
17-03-2010, 14:34
The envy is strong in this thread. It always make me wonder why people seems to think their own codex is always the worst ever. I guess its human to think you are the best ever general and thus any loss is due to unfairness in codexes.

I don't think it's fair for you to male this assumption. Eldar players will agree when I say we have a strong codex that can compete with the most recent ones. The envy comes from the fact that with each codex, Eldar are losing their uniqueness.

For instance, in a recent game against SM I pulled a perfect refused flank. I left his rhinos 18" from the short edge and disabled his LRC, stranding his Th/SS from his firebase, which I hit with everything. I ended up losing because his terms were able to catch up by running, a rule previously unique to Eldar and Nids. I lost because the terms caught me before I could finish off his last troop, he held the objective with one model.

There are a hundred more examples like this, but you get the idea. Eldar armies were fast and fragile. Now, everyone is catching up, so we're just fragile. It's become much harder for me to win because of this.

Poseidal
17-03-2010, 14:45
The Eldar Archetypes have been dug into and eroded since 3rd edition.

When 3rd edition came along, the uniqueness of the race also seemed to be dumbed down with stupid actions described in the fluff.

I've been pretty dissapointed in all ways about how things have turned out in 40k. So much so i pretty much migrated completely to Fantasy now; GW have given me very little incentive to keep buying 40k stuff.

Jagged
17-03-2010, 15:27
The envy is strong in this thread. It always make me wonder why people seems to think their own codex is always the worst ever. I guess its human to think you are the best ever general and thus any loss is due to unfairness in codexes.

I play Orks and BA. So currently I am playing Codex: Orks and Codex:SM. Personally I feel that Space Marines have far too many options and too many configuration choices, regardless of whether or not some things might be under priced.

Space Marines are suppose to be slaves of doctrine whose typical reaction to a new idea is to shot the culprit yet IMO they have the most flexible codices.


[EDIT] GW make the cool model first and the rules later. Some designer comes up with a cool model and they have to fit it in somewhere. They never decide, "No that would unbalance an army". Seem to remember Orks being like that in the 80s.

Znail
17-03-2010, 15:37
It depends a bit on what you consider the Eldar uniqueness. Cheap specialists are still there and not that many armies can match that at all. The units are in general somewhat fragile, but the transports on the other hand is highly durable compared to other armies making up for that lack. This is made even more obvious with the new Stormraven being double the cost of a Waveserpent while the Waveserpent is the more durable one. Duability and speed in transports is quite valuable and the key to why Mech Eldar is so strong. Other armies can do mech cheaper with more fragile transports or as durable but alot more expensive.

About some of the grumbling about the Waveserpent in this thread. Lets compare it with the BA Razorback.

65->100 points gives us:
AV 11->AV 12 plus Force Field
Transport capacity 6->12 plus can carry large models (wraithguard/terminators)
Fast Ground->Fast Skimmer
BS 4 Twin Heavy Bolter->BS 3 Twin Shuriken Cannon+Twin Shuriken Catapults

Personaly I think it makes the Waveserpent look pretty good. I dont see how one could make it much cheaper without making it absurdly cheap.

Corrode
17-03-2010, 15:49
Space Marines are suppose to be slaves of doctrine whose typical reaction to a new idea is to shot the culprit yet IMO they have the most flexible codices

This is a common misconception about Marines and the Codex Astartes generally. While it's true that most Marines tend to follow the precepts of the Codex, and stick to doctrine as much as possible, the doctrine isn't the kind of bullet-pointed 'thou shalt do x y and z, go win the battle!' dogma that people tend to think it is. The Codex Astartes consists of thousands of pages of discussion on all things military, with quotes and strategies cherrypicked from the writing of the very best early-Imperial warriors. For any given battle (in which the solution isn't obvious) a Marine commander can consult the Codex and find a stratagem to apply to his current situation.

One of the mot important precepts, though, is flexibility. Most units in a Marine army have a specific function; the commander's role is to apply that function most effectively. If that means doing something which isn't by-the-book then the book allows for that. This is why Tactical Squads are multi-roled, and Scouts are trained in a variety of methods of war before they get moved up to being proper Marines.

Codex: Space Marines also allows for those Chapters who don't quite follow the Codex precisely. Imperial Fists are paragons of the Astartes, absolutely rigid in their devotion to the set methods of the Codex - but they still have a tendency towards sieges, and the Codex allows a player to build a 'Fists' army which is broadly Codex but maybe has a fair bit more Heavy Support than it does Fast Attack. The Crimson Fists were equally devoted, but forced by necessity to adopt unconventional, or even Raven Guard-styled, methods of war - which are also allowed for in the Codex, Corax's writings having been included. It's a very broad brush.

As for shooting people for new ideas - that's mostly the Mechanicus and the Ecclesiarchy, and even then new ideas can and do emerge (Thorians, anyone?)

CoolKidRoc
17-03-2010, 15:57
The envy is strong in this thread. It always make me wonder why people seems to think their own codex is always the worst ever. I guess its human to think you are the best ever general and thus any loss is due to unfairness in codexes.

First off I don't think any one is envious of Codex BA, we're just discussing what was once a stable of the eldar in 3rd ed, and I guess you could say the rhino rush. But being able to assault of of a fast skimmer was something that was Eldar Only, and now BA have received it, so why is it people think Eldar shouldn't get something they used to have anyways.


It depends a bit on what you consider the Eldar uniqueness. Cheap specialists are still there and not that many armies can match that at all. The units are in general somewhat fragile, but the transports on the other hand is highly durable compared to other armies making up for that lack. This is made even more obvious with the new Stormraven being double the cost of a Waveserpent while the Waveserpent is the more durable one. Duability and speed in transports is quite valuable and the key to why Mech Eldar is so strong. Other armies can do mech cheaper with more fragile transports or as durable but alot more expensive.

About some of the grumbling about the Waveserpent in this thread. Lets compare it with the BA Razorback.

65->100 points gives us:
AV 11->AV 12 plus Force Field
Transport capacity 6->12 plus can carry large models (wraithguard/terminators)
Fast Ground->Fast Skimmer
BS 4 Twin Heavy Bolter->BS 3 Twin Shuriken Cannon+Twin Shuriken Catapults

Personaly I think it makes the Waveserpent look pretty good. I dont see how one could make it much cheaper without making it absurdly cheap.

Lets not compare apples to oranges here, let's go apples to apples.

HS Storm Raven vs HS Falcon ;)

200pts vs 200pts
Armor 12/12/12/ vs 12/12/10
Fast Skimmer vs Fast Skimmer
4 BloodStrike Missiles (Str 8 AP1) vs Pulse Laser
TL MultiMetla vs BrightLance
TL Assault Cannon vs Shurican Cannon
BS4 vs BS3
Power of the Machine Spirit vs Nothing
DeepStrike vs Nothing
Scout vs Nothing
DropChutes vs Nothing
Ignores Metla vs Holo-Field
No xtra armor (but can upgrade to it) vs Spirit Stones
Transport 12 Troops vs 6 Troops
Transport Dread vs Nothing

Point for Point guess which is way better. The Storm Raven, yeah I said it, all TL weapons, carries way more, Higher BS, and can shoot and get a 4+ cover save.

Now let's compare Storm Raven to Wave Serpent

HS Storm Raven vs Dedicated Transport WaveSerpent

200pts vs 190pts
Armor 12/12/12/ vs 12/12/10
Fast Skimmer vs Fast Skimmer
4 BloodStrike Missiles (Str 8 AP1) vs TL Bright Lance
TL MultiMetla vs Nothing
TL Assault Cannon vs Shurican Cannon
BS4 vs BS3
Power of the Machine Spirit vs Nothing
DeepStrike vs Nothing
Scout vs Give up shooting, Move xtra 12"
DropChutes vs Nothing
Ignores Metla vs Energy Field
No xtra armor (but can upgrade to it) vs Spirit Stones
Transport 12 Troops vs 12 Troops
Transport Dread vs Nothing
Nothing vs Vectored Engines (doesn't blow up on Immobolized)

Once again the Storm Raven out performs in almost everything except for the Energy Field, but it can still take advantage of moving flat out before the game has even begun using scout to get a 4+ Cover Save. This makes reserve denial not as big a deal for the Storm Raven and much more ruthless killer. And with both almost costing the same amount of points the Storm Raven can still outgun the Wave Serpent anyday.

Jagged
17-03-2010, 16:03
This is a common misconception about Marines and the Codex Astartes generally. While it's true that most Marines tend to follow the precepts of the Codex, and stick to doctrine as much as possible, the doctrine isn't the kind of bullet-pointed 'thou shalt do x y and z, go win the battle!' dogma that people tend to think it is. The Codex Astartes consists of thousands of pages of discussion on all things military, with quotes and strategies cherrypicked from the writing of the very best early-Imperial warriors. For any given battle (in which the solution isn't obvious) a Marine commander can consult the Codex and find a stratagem to apply to his current situation.

One of the mot important precepts, though, is flexibility. Most units in a Marine army have a specific function; the commander's role is to apply that function most effectively. If that means doing something which isn't by-the-book then the book allows for that. This is why Tactical Squads are multi-roled, and Scouts are trained in a variety of methods of war before they get moved up to being proper Marines.

Codex: Space Marines also allows for those Chapters who don't quite follow the Codex precisely. Imperial Fists are paragons of the Astartes, absolutely rigid in their devotion to the set methods of the Codex - but they still have a tendency towards sieges, and the Codex allows a player to build a 'Fists' army which is broadly Codex but maybe has a fair bit more Heavy Support than it does Fast Attack. The Crimson Fists were equally devoted, but forced by necessity to adopt unconventional, or even Raven Guard-styled, methods of war - which are also allowed for in the Codex, Corax's writings having been included. It's a very broad brush.

As for shooting people for new ideas - that's mostly the Mechanicus and the Ecclesiarchy, and even then new ideas can and do emerge (Thorians, anyone?)


Yet back in the day* that was how the army lists were. Reading SM books I frequently stumble across lines saying "other chapters where initially reluctant to take X but with its successes it gradually court on". Which strikes me as the current retcon for all the choices they now have.

When I first played the Orks had the most flexible army structures. Now its Marines. While individual options my be priced reasonably (and I'm not sure thats true) that flexibility has NOT been balanced into the army.

YMMV


* "Back in the day" means the 80s for me. Poor old git that I am ;)

Znail
17-03-2010, 16:20
First off I don't think any one is envious of Codex BA, we're just discussing what was once a stable of the eldar in 3rd ed, and I guess you could say the rhino rush. But being able to assault of of a fast skimmer was something that was Eldar Only, and now BA have received it, so why is it people think Eldar shouldn't get something they used to have anyways.



Lets not compare apples to oranges here, let's go apples to apples.

HS Storm Raven vs HS Falcon ;)

200pts vs 200pts
Armor 12/12/12/ vs 12/12/10
Fast Skimmer vs Fast Skimmer
4 BloodStrike Missiles (Str 8 AP1) vs Pulse Laser
TL MultiMetla vs BrightLance
TL Assault Cannon vs Shurican Cannon
BS4 vs BS3
Power of the Machine Spirit vs Nothing
DeepStrike vs Nothing
Scout vs Nothing
DropChutes vs Nothing
Ignores Metla vs Holo-Field
No xtra armor (but can upgrade to it) vs Spirit Stones
Transport 12 Troops vs 6 Troops
Transport Dread vs Nothing

Point for Point guess which is way better. The Storm Raven, yeah I said it, all TL weapons, carries way more, Higher BS, and can shoot and get a 4+ cover save.

Now let's compare Storm Raven to Wave Serpent

HS Storm Raven vs Dedicated Transport WaveSerpent

200pts vs 190pts
Armor 12/12/12/ vs 12/12/10
Fast Skimmer vs Fast Skimmer
4 BloodStrike Missiles (Str 8 AP1) vs TL Bright Lance
TL MultiMetla vs Nothing
TL Assault Cannon vs Shurican Cannon
BS4 vs BS3
Power of the Machine Spirit vs Nothing
DeepStrike vs Nothing
Scout vs Give up shooting, Move xtra 12"
DropChutes vs Nothing
Ignores Metla vs Energy Field
No xtra armor (but can upgrade to it) vs Spirit Stones
Transport 12 Troops vs 12 Troops
Transport Dread vs Nothing
Nothing vs Vectored Engines (doesn't blow up on Immobolized)

Once again the Storm Raven out performs in almost everything except for the Energy Field, but it can still take advantage of moving flat out before the game has even begun using scout to get a 4+ Cover Save. This makes reserve denial not as big a deal for the Storm Raven and much more ruthless killer. And with both almost costing the same amount of points the Storm Raven can still outgun the Wave Serpent anyday.

So you gave the Eldar vehicles every upgrade you could find just to make them more expensive then they need to be and make them seem to cost as much? One could do the same to make a Razorback more expensive then a Falcon. For that matter so are there plenty of vehicle upgrades for the Stormraven to buy to once again make it alot more expensive. Oh, the Stormraven does not have Scout either. But it doesnt change that its a rather unfair and dishonest way to make it seem like the Waveserpent or Falcon costs as much as the Stormraven when they are realy so much cheaper. Is dishonesty the only way to make Eldar look bad? I guess that means they are even better off then i thought.

LususNaturae
17-03-2010, 16:27
So you gave the Eldar vehicles every upgrade you could find just to make them more expensive then they need to be and make them seem to cost as much? One could do the same to make a Razorback more expensive then a Falcon. For that matter so are there plenty of vehicle upgrades for the Stormraven to buy to once again make it alot more expensive. Oh, the Stormraven does not have Scout either. But it doesnt change that its a rather unfair and dishonest way to make it seem like the Waveserpent or Falcon costs as much as the Stormraven when they are realy so much cheaper. Is dishonesty the only way to make Eldar look bad? I guess that means they are even better off then i thought.

No, he gave them all the upgrades so that it was easy to make an equal comparison, so he only had to compare abilities and not factor points cost.

Corrode
17-03-2010, 16:34
That's not a useful comparison, though. Nobody is running 190pt Wave Serpents, and their role isn't to be given 100pts worth of upgrades. Stating 'the Wave Serpent, when given tons of overcosted upgrades it doesn't need to perform its function, isn't as good as a still-slightly-more-expensive Stormraven' doesn't tell us anything except that Wave Serpents don't use a lot of the Eldar vehicle upgrades and/or that those vehicle upgrades are overcosted. A more useful comparison would be 'for the points cost of a Stormraven I can have two unupgraded Wave Serpents, or two with star engines, or just under two with star engines and holofields' at which point the Wave Serpent compares fairly well.

Poseidal
17-03-2010, 16:40
Wave Serpents can't take Holofields.

Put any upgrade on (even he cheapest) and they're already more than half a Storm Raven.

The stupid one is if you want to put any weapon on it more than the Shuriken Cannon. A Brightlance (and spirit stones) will make it cost 75% of the SR with a fraction of he firepower. The gunship part of the WS (which it is partly) is way too expensive and it's worse as a delivery system.

CoolKidRoc
17-03-2010, 16:41
So you gave the Eldar vehicles every upgrade you could find just to make them more expensive then they need to be and make them seem to cost as much? One could do the same to make a Razorback more expensive then a Falcon. For that matter so are there plenty of vehicle upgrades for the Stormraven to buy to once again make it alot more expensive. Oh, the Stormraven does not have Scout either. But it doesnt change that its a rather unfair and dishonest way to make it seem like the Waveserpent or Falcon costs as much as the Stormraven when they are realy so much cheaper. Is dishonesty the only way to make Eldar look bad? I guess that means they are even better off then i thought.

No I gave them upgrades to show a comperable comparison of what you get point for point. At 200 pts the Stormraven can yes still take upgrades to make it better, but at 200 pts the Falcon really has no other options to take, it can't take more guns, or better guns.

As for manipulation I think you're kidding yourself here. A Falcon run by most people will run between 175 and 200 pts because of the mandatory upgrades to make it viable. This includes Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones, and the Required Left Turret Weapon putting the cheapest version at 165 and a reliable version at 185. And then for those who go tank hunting with there falcon they WILL take Brightlances giving it a minimum cost of 190 and 200 if they upgrade to the chin cannon. So no, I'm not re-working the specs here, or being dishonest in anyway. I'm showing what a Comparable Falcon would be.

But let's be more honest about this then in your eyes.

HS Storm Raven vs HS Falcon

200pts vs 120pts
Armor 12/12/12/ vs 12/12/10
Fast Skimmer vs Fast Skimmer
4 BloodStrike Missiles (Str 8 AP1) vs Pulse Laser
TL MultiMetla vs Shurican Cannon
TL Assault Cannon vs TL Shurican Catapults
BS4 vs BS3
Power of the Machine Spirit vs Nothing
DeepStrike vs Nothing
Scout vs Nothing (Sorry I thought it did have Scout, my bad)
DropChutes vs Nothing
Ignores Metla vs Nothing
Transport 12 Troops vs 6 Troops
Transport Dread vs Nothing

So at a base of 120 Points the Falcon become nothing but a 120 point Razor Back. Wow look it's so powerful. It is much weaker then Storm Raven and much less Survivable, seeing as it has no way to mitigate damage.

Now let's talk the Wave Serpent, once again I brought the vehicle up to price to match the cost of the Storm Raven to show what you get point for point. Of course I can take a Wave Serpent for half the cost but then it's survivability is even less, and carries almost nothing for weapons. Where the 190 point version is survivable and maneuverable and has an ok chance at taking out an LR which the base version has no chance of.

200pts vs 100pts
Armor 12/12/12/ vs 12/12/10
Fast Skimmer vs Fast Skimmer
4 BloodStrike Missiles (Str 8 AP1) vs TL Shurican Cannons
TL MultiMetla vs Nothing
TL Assault Cannon vs TL Shurican Catapults
BS4 vs BS3
Power of the Machine Spirit vs Nothing
DeepStrike vs Nothing
DropChutes vs Nothing
Ignores Metla vs Energy Field
Transport 12 Troops vs 12 Troops
Transport Dread vs Nothing

So as you can see the Storm Raven still can out gun the Waveserpent and this time even more. As the WS will never take out an LR but the Storm has a good chance of doing so. Once again the Storm keeps it's BS4 and TL weapons while the WS gets BS 3 TL Pea Shooters.

But like others will say and support, that I compared the unit Point for Point and still showed that the Storm Raven has much more going for it.

Znail
17-03-2010, 16:43
No, he gave them all the upgrades so that it was easy to make an equal comparison, so he only had to compare abilities and not factor points cost.

And why should the costs not be factored in? Its an important factor of the game and part of the balance. Should we ignore point costs when we compare a Falcon with a Razorback too, just becuase we can get the Razorback enuff upgrades to be more expensive then the Falcon? Obviously the main advantage of the Razorback is that its cheaper, the same advantage that the Waveserpent and Falcon have over the Stormraven.

[edit]Ok, with the correct points I guess I should make a serious response. The main thing is that you can get quite alot of firepower for 80-100 points in the Eldar codex, so there is no problem to match the firepower of the Stormraven and even come out ahead. Its even more of an advantage as that extra firepower wont die with the Waveserpent or Falcon unlike the Stormraven taking all its guns with it when its gone. For instance, Waveserpent w/Twin Brightlances + Warwalker with 2 Scatterlasers costs less then a Stormraven and have alot better range. Or if you dont favor the longer range, then you could get a unit of Fire Dragons to ride in the Waveserpent for superior short range firepower. This is why costs matters, because you can get other things for those points.

CoolKidRoc
17-03-2010, 16:47
That's not a useful comparison, though. Nobody is running 190pt Wave Serpents, and their role isn't to be given 100pts worth of upgrades. Stating 'the Wave Serpent, when given tons of overcosted upgrades it doesn't need to perform its function, isn't as good as a still-slightly-more-expensive Stormraven' doesn't tell us anything except that Wave Serpents don't use a lot of the Eldar vehicle upgrades and/or that those vehicle upgrades are overcosted. A more useful comparison would be 'for the points cost of a Stormraven I can have two unupgraded Wave Serpents, or two with star engines, or just under two with star engines and holofields' at which point the Wave Serpent compares fairly well.

Yes minimally Costed the Wave Serpent costs exactly Half the points of a Stormraven. But with that you lose out on any Anti Tank over Armor 12, it loses it's extra armor. You can't take Star Engines, you can't take holo-fields (at all they just can't have them) and you can't upgrade any of the weapons. So it's basically a flying razor back for 100 pts.

Once you start getting those necessary Upgrades to make it playable, by my standards at least, you're looking at minimum 120 pts and up to 140 pts if you want to hurt anything with armor 13 and up. So for a stormraven I can take a 1.3 playable Wave Serpents in my book.

Karhedron
17-03-2010, 16:49
Once again the Storm Raven out performs in almost everything except for the Energy Field, but it can still take advantage of moving flat out before the game has even begun using scout to get a 4+ Cover Save.

Please note that the Stormraven DOES NOT have Scout. I have seen several people claiming this and I can categorically state it is not true. It has Deep Strike but not Scout.

CoolKidRoc
17-03-2010, 16:52
And why should the costs not be factored in? Its an important factor of the game and part of the balance. Should we ignore point costs when we compare a Falcon with a Razorback too, just becuase we can get the Razorback enuff upgrades to be more expensive then the Falcon? Obviously the main advantage of the Razorback is that its cheaper, the same advantage that the Waveserpent and Falcon have over the Stormraven.

First off Maxed out a Razorback can't match in points the minimum costs of a Falcon. And at 115 points the Razorback gets 3 guns, same as a Falcon, extra armor which the falcon doesn't get, and can re-roll dangerous terrain which a falcon can never do. Along with TL Lascannons. I can pump points into my falcon all day and I'll never get more then 3 weapons, and will never get anything over Str 8 for it.

And as far as comparing the costs, did I not show you exactly what you get for the costs of the two, at 200 pts vs 200pts. How much easier does it get to compare cost of two units. Yes I can take mine cheaper, but my Falcon will never be as good as I minimum stormraven, even when I put the same amount of points into it.

Shouldn't the Balancing Factor of the game, as you describe it, the points equal out the abilities of the two units when they cost the same amount of points?

Or should one be more powerful then the other even at the same points costs?

CoolKidRoc
17-03-2010, 16:53
Please note that the Stormraven DOES NOT have Scout. I have seen several people claiming this and I can categorically state it is not true. It has Deep Strike but not Scout.

Noted :D Sorry I forgot about that after reading all the rumors of it having it for months :P

Corrode
17-03-2010, 17:05
Yes minimally Costed the Wave Serpent costs exactly Half the points of a Stormraven. But with that you lose out on any Anti Tank over Armor 12, it loses it's extra armor. You can't take Star Engines, you can't take holo-fields (at all they just can't have them) and you can't upgrade any of the weapons. So it's basically a flying razor back for 100 pts.

Once you start getting those necessary Upgrades to make it playable, by my standards at least, you're looking at minimum 120 pts and up to 140 pts if you want to hurt anything with armor 13 and up. So for a stormraven I can take a 1.3 playable Wave Serpents in my book.

I was thinking of spirit stones instead of holofields, but stones + stars + shuricannons comes out to 125pts. I'm not entirely sure why you want your anti-tank to come from the Serpent in a list which has Fire Dragons, mind - I appreciate the idea is to try and compare with the Stormraven, but then the Stormraven costs a lot more and has a different role.

Znail
17-03-2010, 17:37
First off Maxed out a Razorback can't match in points the minimum costs of a Falcon. And at 115 points the Razorback gets 3 guns, same as a Falcon, extra armor which the falcon doesn't get, and can re-roll dangerous terrain which a falcon can never do. Along with TL Lascannons. I can pump points into my falcon all day and I'll never get more then 3 weapons, and will never get anything over Str 8 for it. BA Razorback is more expensive then the normal SM one so can get more expensive then the Falcons min cost. I think flying over dangerous terrain beats re-rolling terrain tests when moving at most 6". AV 12 beats extra armor hands down any day. The guns are pretty comparable. Twin S9, single shot S8, 2 S4, vs 2 S8, 3 S6 and 2 twin S4 shots. I would take the Falcon over the souped up Razorback any day and its a good example why just stacking on upgrades is a poor way to compare things.


And as far as comparing the costs, did I not show you exactly what you get for the costs of the two, at 200 pts vs 200pts. How much easier does it get to compare cost of two units. Yes I can take mine cheaper, but my Falcon will never be as good as I minimum stormraven, even when I put the same amount of points into it.

Shouldn't the Balancing Factor of the game, as you describe it, the points equal out the abilities of the two units when they cost the same amount of points?

Or should one be more powerful then the other even at the same points costs?
I answered this in my edit above. I made it an edit not to double post, I guess I could have waited a minute :)

Sunfang
17-03-2010, 18:17
Please also note that a razorback is a dedicated transport option. Something the falcon is currently not.

Ianos
17-03-2010, 18:42
Sorry but to me the stormraven is of no comparison to the falcon. It does not take a genious to see that and CoolKidRoc has even bothered to compare precicely. It is ridiculus that people where complaining for the falcon of 4th and now we have a monster like the raven and everything is supposed to be ok.

It's not ok, especially in an army that is not supposed to be THAT fast and gets ALL fast vehicles. Yeah, i know BA vehicles cost like 15 points more, tell me now, who is not going to pay those points?

I play one of those renegade marine forces with which i do whatever i like, guess what now my force can be more powerful, shootier, faster and assaultier than both Eldar and DE. Why should i ever bother bringing a falcon again, when i can just use the same points and move 24", get a cover save, fire, then move 12" fire at 2 targets, unload and assault with 10+ powerfull all-arounders?

Sildani
17-03-2010, 18:52
*snip*
Shouldn't the Balancing Factor of the game, as you describe it, the points equal out the abilities of the two units when they cost the same amount of points?

Or should one be more powerful then the other even at the same points costs?

It should be mentioned here that everything in a Codex is adjusted for its point cost within that particular Codex, e.g. the Falcon costs what it does because Phil Kelly thought that made sense when comparing it to the other Eldar units. Ward thought the Stormraven was worth... whatever it's worth when he looked at the Blood Angels as a whole.

Unit costs are never "cross-shopped" between Codecies. The Studio guys have said that several times over the years at various Games Day seminars. Therefore, comparing two units of different armies via point costs is kinda useless.

Comparing capabilities within FOC slot, though, might make more sense. In my opinion, then, as Heavy Support Fast skimmers with a transport capacity, the Stormraven creams the Falcon in terms of capacity and firepower. I'd love to have an equivalent. That can't happen though. There's such a thing as "too good", and an Eldar Stormraven is it.

And here is where I'd like to talk to Znail: The Eldar have a strong Codex still , no argument. What I dislike is our lack of distinctiveness. Tau and IG took our firepower reputation, Dark Eldar and it seems Blood Angels took fast, and Space Wolves and Tyranids (and maybe BA again) took psychic mastery. Most of our powers are force multipliers - very useful, but not a Str 10 AP1 Lance shot, or a Jaws of the World Wolf, by any means.

Where's the Eldar's "WOW!!" factor anymore? Pretty models themselves only go so far.

Lord of Worms
17-03-2010, 18:59
I didn't even bother reading most of this thread. tl;dr, so if this is off topic or already covered feel free to ignore it.

Does anybody not think that buffing the eldar skimmers isn't really the constructive answer? The Eldar codex is not the problem, the Blood Angels codex and the rest of 5th ed is. 1st or 2nd turn charges from assault vehicles defining the game makes for a lame waste of time IMO. Does nobody remember Rhino Rush from the old BA codex?

I personally don't think that the Stormraven has no business in standard games of 40k, irrespective of it's status as "point sink" or the opinion of some that it's too risky for tournament play. Nobody enjoys playing games that have hinge on whether or not some uber-leet unit pulls it off or not, and that's what this has become.

Eldar have always played as an Elite Infantry army with maneuver-warfare. If that isn't effective enough and it needs a buff, what then? 1st turn charges from Howling Banshees? Is that where the game needs to go?

Sildani
17-03-2010, 19:10
A valid point, but since the Codecies you mention aren't going away anytime soon, and since a possible 6th Edition is probably a couple years away or more, buffing/re-thinking the Eldar Codex is all that's left. Not that I expect that to happen for a couple years, either.

Lord of Worms
17-03-2010, 19:21
A valid point, but since the Codecies you mention aren't going away anytime soon, and since a possible 6th Edition is probably a couple years away or more, buffing/re-thinking the Eldar Codex is all that's left. Not that I expect that to happen for a couple years, either.

And then what? Will that make the game fun? Will it be "balanced" if every army is equally messed up ? This whole game is a bloated nightmare of idiocy and band-aid short term decisions. I've been advocating a re-boot for quite some time now, and that is pretty much the only way you'll ever get me to play a "current" 40k ruleset again.

Forget Craftworlders for a minute, think about what will happen when the Dark Eldar codex gets released.

Znail
17-03-2010, 19:38
I didn't even bother reading most of this thread. tl;dr, so if this is off topic or already covered feel free to ignore it.

Does anybody not think that buffing the eldar skimmers isn't really the constructive answer? The Eldar codex is not the problem, the Blood Angels codex and the rest of 5th ed is. 1st or 2nd turn charges from assault vehicles defining the game makes for a lame waste of time IMO. Does nobody remember Rhino Rush from the old BA codex?

I personally don't think that the Stormraven has no business in standard games of 40k, irrespective of it's status as "point sink" or the opinion of some that it's too risky for tournament play. Nobody enjoys playing games that have hinge on whether or not some uber-leet unit pulls it off or not, and that's what this has become.

Eldar have always played as an Elite Infantry army with maneuver-warfare. If that isn't effective enough and it needs a buff, what then? 1st turn charges from Howling Banshees? Is that where the game needs to go?

Expensive units that can do 2nd turn charges is hardly a new thing. Even the Eldar can do this. Jetbikes can do it and the Seercouncil is uber enuff. So if this is a problem, then Eldar is part of the problem.

I dont see the Eldar as an Elite Infantry army either as they are generaly less costly then Space Marines and closer in costs to IG. Its just that they come with special weapons included in their costs instead of having them as options.

Ianos
17-03-2010, 19:56
Forget Craftworlders for a minute, think about what will happen when the Dark Eldar codex gets released.

They are going to get raiders that fire at 18" unload and assault, at minimum, infiltrators that appear with a killer squad anywhere on the board and buffed up lances.

And that's the bare minimum they should get to compensate for all the speed and armor other races earned.

I mean if Orks can have 4 14av vehilcles alway in 4+cover, with almost all fearless/all-around massed infantry that can move 13" disembark 2"+base from the FRONT, fleet 6" and assault, DE and CE should definitely get more speed to counter.

Now after 3d6" fleet IG with powerful Mech and valks, superfast tough orks with extreme shooters and deep striking raider and skimmer/fast marines, its safe to say Eldar in general MUST compensate somehow.

Lord of Worms
17-03-2010, 20:09
, its safe to say Eldar in general MUST compensate somehow.

That's my point. Does anybody think that this makes any sense anymore?

Ianos
17-03-2010, 21:44
That's my point. Does anybody think that this makes any sense anymore?

A re-boot is out of the question. So is for GW, admitting mistakes and fixing things up especially when it concerns the poster boyz. And really, i don't get it, why would DE moving 18" shooting a gun and charging be idiocy, BA ridiculusness or not?

Why is everyone supposed to play all pieces of their fluff to the max, and Eldar and DE just mount up and prey the other guy is stupid to win?

CoolKidRoc
17-03-2010, 22:05
Expensive units that can do 2nd turn charges is hardly a new thing. Even the Eldar can do this. Jetbikes can do it and the Seercouncil is uber enuff. So if this is a problem, then Eldar is part of the problem.

I dont see the Eldar as an Elite Infantry army either as they are generaly less costly then Space Marines and closer in costs to IG. Its just that they come with special weapons included in their costs instead of having them as options.

HAHAHA!!! Did you just call Eldar Part of the problem with there Jetbikes being able to assault Second Turn? OMFG OOoooh let's worry about the 2 attacks at WS 3 Init 4 and Str 3 that Eldar Jetbikes get... Run for cover everyone, LOL.

And as far as the Uber Council of Death, 3 attacks most on the charge, no power weapons, yeah super scary. The Uber Council is mostly there to soak up wounds and harass, it doesn't stand a chance against most Elite Assault units as ever 4 wounds kills someone, and being eldar it doesn't take much to kill them, even with a re-rollable ++ save. Hell My Seers go down to Powerfist everyday so I don't think it's as uber as you're implying.

And as far as Costs, we generally cost more then SMs and way more then IG we way way way Less Heavy Weapons to make up for it. Now I'm starting to think you're just here to troll.

Znail
17-03-2010, 22:31
So only units where everyone has powerweapons counts if they can charge in 2 turns? And rerollable 3+/4++ saves are fragile? Hmm, doesnt that make almost all units in the game either harmless and/or fragile? You seem to have rather unrealistic view of what is good or bad in 40k.

Ianos
17-03-2010, 23:07
So only units where everyone has powerweapons counts if they can charge in 2 turns? And rerollable 3+/4++ saves are fragile? Hmm, doesnt that make almost all units in the game either harmless and/or fragile? You seem to have rather unrealistic view of what is good or bad in 40k.

He did not say the council is fragile, he said it does not deal serious damage. The average council will kill 5 marines on charge with doom, which is almost as many as a plasma/melta/combiplasma marine squad will kill without even assaulting.

As for being tough, it costs 550+ and will go down to termies, nobikers and even the classic plague marines will hold it down for a whole game to eventually even take out the seer.

Hellebore
18-03-2010, 00:53
GW is committed to their DBZisation of 40k for this development cycle. They might change their minds and reduce everything in 5 years, but at the moment they're simply going to DBZ everything to make it vaguely competitive.

Personally I don't like the idea that 'making something expensive balances it' is the sole method of balance. I agree that points costs do a lot of things, but there needs to be a limit on things as well. Self control AND points control. GW seems to disagree given the current codex trend.

Hellebore

CoolKidRoc
18-03-2010, 00:58
So only units where everyone has powerweapons counts if they can charge in 2 turns? And rerollable 3+/4++ saves are fragile? Hmm, doesnt that make almost all units in the game either harmless and/or fragile? You seem to have rather unrealistic view of what is good or bad in 40k.

No I was just saying that Jetbikes are practically the last thing you'd want out there assaulting anything, especially on the 2nd turn.

But let's count the number of things that can pull off a second turn charge that are much more effective at it.

1. All 12" Vehicle Based Units Disembark Turn 1 - Turn 1: 12 move, 3 disembark, 1-6 run Turn 2: 6 move, 6 charge - 28-32 inches.

2. All 12" Vehicle Based Units Disembark w/ Fleet Turn 1 - Turn 1: 12 move, 3 disembark, 1-6 run Turn 2: 6 move, 1-6 fleet, 6 charge - 29-38 inches.

3. Open Topped Vehicles (Orks) - Turn 1: 12 inch move Turn 2: 12 inch move, 3 inch dismbark, 1-6 fleet, 6 charge - 34-38 inches.

4. Skimmers (Eldar, Tau) - Turn1: 24 inch move Turn 2: 3 inch disembark, 6 inch move, 1-6 inch fleet, 6 inch charge - 46 - 50 inches.

5. Open Topped Skimmer (DE)- Turn1: 24 inch move Turn 2: 12 inch move, 3 inch disembark, 1-6 inch fleet, 6 inch charge - 52 - 56 inches.

So to me it pretty much looks like every single army can pull off a second turn assault, huh. And with units better or just as good as what the Eldar can throw out there.

And as far as fragile, I didn't say that about the SeerCouncil, I just said they DIE. 25% of the time they'll be loosing a guy, and at 500pts I'm usually only running about 7 guys, so that's 28 shots to kill them, or 28 wounds. Not that much when you consider how much they cost.

I'll not get into what I think about you, but I would say I have a very fair understanding of the game, how's it played, and what is viable and not viable.



He did not say the council is fragile, he said it does not deal serious damage. The average council will kill 5 marines on charge with doom, which is almost as many as a plasma/melta/combiplasma marine squad will kill without even assaulting.

As for being tough, it costs 550+ and will go down to termies, nobikers and even the classic plague marines will hold it down for a whole game to eventually even take out the seer.

Thanks for the back up ;)

player21
18-03-2010, 09:50
Well the eldar do have an assault vehicle. But kraft world that's a different story.

Jagged
18-03-2010, 12:42
I mean if Orks can have 4 14av vehilcles alway in 4+cover, with almost all fearless/all-around massed infantry that can move 13" disembark 2"+base from the FRONT, fleet 6" and assault, DE and CE should definitely get more speed to counter.


It should me mentioned that to do that an Ork army needs a specific HQ unit for the save (Big Mek), a special character (Ghaz) to give the fleet 6" and then it is a one per game thing.

So if an Ork player does this there are balances to be made elsewhere in their army. What, does anyone know, are the balances the SM:BA player has to make?

[edit] And before anyone accuses me of being a whiny Warseer I would just point out that I am asking this question as an Ork and SM:BA player that hasn't seen the new codex yet.

Karhedron
18-03-2010, 13:21
So if an Ork player does this there are balances to be made elsewhere in their army. What, does anyone know, are the balances the SM:BA player has to make?

Just points I think. No particular characters are required to unlock the Stormraven option. However it is in the same sort of price band a land raider so is not likely to be spammed.

I can comfortably fit 7 Av12 vehicles into a 1750 point mech Eldar list (2 fire prisms and 5 Serpents with moderately deadly payloads). A BA player can never take more than 3 Stormravens and all die to converntional heavy weapons as easily as a Wave Serpent.

Are other armies muscling on traditional Eldar archetypes? Probably.

Is the Stormraven broken, overpowered or undercosted? Only fielding one or facing it will tell but my hunch at the moment is that it is not. I have been known to make mistakes, for time to time. ;)

Jagged
18-03-2010, 14:26
Just points I think.

If thats the case then I believe it is fair to do a cross codex points comparison.

marv335
18-03-2010, 14:35
If thats the case then I believe it is fair to do a cross codex points comparison.

Only vs another unit from the same codex.
as has been said before, points balance is internal, not external.

Jagged
18-03-2010, 14:40
Only vs another unit from the same codex.
as has been said before, points balance is internal, not external.

And as I said I don't buy that where there are no internal army constraints.

YMMV

Poseidal
18-03-2010, 14:56
The whole point of points cost is to compare across armies.

If there was no comparison, GW could produce Mega Marines who are just like regular marines but with 2 point marines, 7 point Captains and 15 point Land Raiders but you can't critisize it because you'll be comparing across codices and point balance is internal and not external.

I would guess it was that sort of thinking that gave birth to the WHFB Daemons and Dark Elf books.

CoolKidRoc
18-03-2010, 17:10
I really do think things have to be balanced point wise outside of the codex, as well that's the only way to balance anything lol... ever notice why LRs always cost the same ;)

Jagged
18-03-2010, 17:22
It "might" be valid to say that you can only balance points at the total army level (i.e. for what you get for 1000 or 1500 or 2000 points) if you could argue that different FOC rules invalidate lower level comparisons. But you could only do that if there were restrictions applied to these units or GW had a policy of making one type of unit cheaper and another more expensive within an army to encourage the taking of particular units.

As far as I can tell (might be wrong) none of that is happening here. My personal opinion is that SM codices are far more flexible than other army lists. Codex:BA might be different, I've not seen it yet.

marv335
18-03-2010, 17:41
And as I said I don't buy that where there are no internal army constraints.

YMMV

You don't need to "buy it"
There have been numerous events where when asked, that's what the design team has said.
They're the ones who set the points cost, so they'd know.
What you believe is of no consequence in the matter.

Jagged
18-03-2010, 18:00
You don't need to "buy it"

Which is good cuz I'm not going to. That argument makes all point cost irrelevant and could only work if there are internal army restrictions and there don't appear to be any in this case.

There we go, back where we started.

CoolKidRoc
18-03-2010, 18:01
But point costs are still irrelevant when discussing whether it's unthinkable for Eldar to have assault vehicles or not :P

Corrode
18-03-2010, 18:09
GW is committed to their DBZisation of 40k for this development cycle. They might change their minds and reduce everything in 5 years, but at the moment they're simply going to DBZ everything to make it vaguely competitive.

Personally I don't like the idea that 'making something expensive balances it' is the sole method of balance. I agree that points costs do a lot of things, but there needs to be a limit on things as well. Self control AND points control. GW seems to disagree given the current codex trend.

Hellebore

I don't get this view. Things which are good cost more points than things which are less good. With any luck equal points value of the less good thing is able to beat the more-good thing, and hence we achieve balance. What other system does there need to be?

Iracundus
18-03-2010, 21:15
I don't get this view. Things which are good cost more points than things which are less good. With any luck equal points value of the less good thing is able to beat the more-good thing, and hence we achieve balance. What other system does there need to be?

A system where things don't go so completely over the top as to break suspension of disbelief and strain credibility even more so than required for the basic paradigm of the game. Points alone isn't sufficient.

As I wrote before in a previous post, one could hypothetically make a character powerful enough to be able to take on a 1500 point army single handedly, and then price him at 1500 points. Does that by itself make it balanced? No, it is still a stupidly overpowered character.

Ianos
18-03-2010, 23:07
It should me mentioned that to do that an Ork army needs a specific HQ unit for the save (Big Mek), a special character (Ghaz) to give the fleet 6" and then it is a one per game thing.

So if an Ork player does this there are balances to be made elsewhere in their army. What, does anyone know, are the balances the SM:BA player has to make?

I play Orks and renegades (i.e. all marines) too and have played Orks intensively since their new codex.

Yes they need Ghaz and the mek but the mek is cheap and grants a ton of cover to both troops and tanks while Ghaz not only gives 6" fleet but also makes everyone fearless and gets a 2+ inv for a turn as well as being a killer himself with 7 str 10 attacks on charge.

Orks are whatever the heck they like from trukk charge to nobiker speed on crack, to shooters. Where is the Eldar edge here? Where is the background?

massey
19-03-2010, 01:01
Man, Eldar players bitch a lot.

Here's the thing with the comparison of the Stormraven to the Wave Serpent. Michael Jordan makes a terrible Shaq. Peyton Manning is a poor excuse for an Adrian Peterson. And, umm, soccer guy is not, umm... a good... goalie, or something. Soccer sucks.

My point is, the Wave Serpent is not a Stormraven. It's going to suck if you try to make it fit into the Stormraven's role. The Falcon is not a Razorback. It has different uses and different roles. If you want a Stormraven, play Blood Angels.

What does the Wave Serpent do? It provides very fast transport, very securely, for a squad of Aspect Warriors. Why is that good? Because Aspect Warriors are a very powerful part of the Eldar army. For 125, you get a transport that can move 36" a turn, has extra armor, is nearly as durable as a Land Raider, and delivers up to 12 specialists anywhere you want. That's awesome. It's not a gunboat. Don't use it as one. Its job is to get Aspect Warriors into action. It virtually guarantees that your units will be exactly where you want them on turn 2. And that is incredibly useful. You get to ensure that those expensive, T3 4+ save units are able to make it to their target virtually unmolested. When you've got entire squads of power weapons or meltaguns, for fairly cheap prices, that's an excellent ability.

Jagged
19-03-2010, 10:55
Orks are whatever the heck they like from trukk charge to nobiker speed on crack, to shooters. Where is the Eldar edge here? Where is the background?

You're pissing on the wrong fire here mate.

This particular poster thinks the Eldar need to have an edge restored. Not sure what the should be (since I don't know them well enough) but I have a load of Eldar models gathering dust in the cupboard because I read the codex and it totally fails to inspire me. Nor do their rules paint the picture described by their fluff. Thats my feeling anyway :(

Karhedron
19-03-2010, 12:25
A system where things don't go so completely over the top as to break suspension of disbelief and strain credibility even more so than required for the basic paradigm of the game. Points alone isn't sufficient.

As I wrote before in a previous post, one could hypothetically make a character powerful enough to be able to take on a 1500 point army single handedly, and then price him at 1500 points. Does that by itself make it balanced? No, it is still a stupidly overpowered character.

I don't get the problem with this. Isn't single, massive models basically what Forgeworld do? As long as it was costed appropriately for its offensive and defensive capabilities I don't see the problem.

I can't afford toys like that myself but I know others who do and it is kinda fun watching a Titan vs a regular army. It is sort of a Goliath vs lots of Davids match. Can the infantry etc whittle down the Titan before he blasts the army to pieces? I remember a Tau cadre downing a Revnant Titan (mind you, plenty of Railguns help ;)).

Karhedron
19-03-2010, 12:35
Where is the Eldar edge here? Where is the background?

I agree to an extent. It is not that it is hard to build a competative Eldar army, it is just that there are a lot of units that are pretty poor which limits competative armies to a few variant builds.

We get Mech, Seer council of Doom, Wraithwall or hammer and anvil. All the successful lists I see are some variation of that. You usually see Fire Dragons, Warlocks, Wraithlords, Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms. I cannot remember the last time I saw Hawks fielded, never mind in a competative list.

I don't want Eldar to be overpowered but I would like to see all the different units made competative. I guess this is hard because many of the units were designed back in 1st or 2nd edition when the game was very different to how it is now.

LususNaturae
19-03-2010, 13:42
I don't even think eldar should get transports at all...

Fire prism is the biggest load of OP ******** ever...

If you're going to troll, you may want to try being a bit more subtle. Mods will gobble you up ;)

CoolKidRoc
19-03-2010, 15:09
Man, Eldar players bitch a lot.

Here's the thing with the comparison of the Stormraven to the Wave Serpent. Michael Jordan makes a terrible Shaq. Peyton Manning is a poor excuse for an Adrian Peterson. And, umm, soccer guy is not, umm... a good... goalie, or something. Soccer sucks.

My point is, the Wave Serpent is not a Stormraven. It's going to suck if you try to make it fit into the Stormraven's role. The Falcon is not a Razorback. It has different uses and different roles. If you want a Stormraven, play Blood Angels.

What does the Wave Serpent do? It provides very fast transport, very securely, for a squad of Aspect Warriors. Why is that good? Because Aspect Warriors are a very powerful part of the Eldar army. For 125, you get a transport that can move 36" a turn, has extra armor, is nearly as durable as a Land Raider, and delivers up to 12 specialists anywhere you want. That's awesome. It's not a gunboat. Don't use it as one. Its job is to get Aspect Warriors into action. It virtually guarantees that your units will be exactly where you want them on turn 2. And that is incredibly useful. You get to ensure that those expensive, T3 4+ save units are able to make it to their target virtually unmolested. When you've got entire squads of power weapons or meltaguns, for fairly cheap prices, that's an excellent ability.

Most of us are not even saying that we want a Wave Serpent to be a replica of the Storm Raven, we're just advocating being able to assault out of it. I know I know... it seems like we want a gun boat in comparing the two, but we're comparing them because it has assault ramps and lots of other things for 200 pts, Which equates to way way WAY more then what you would get if you spent 200 pts on a Wave Serpent, and that adding assault ramps could be justified for a slight point increase.

Oh and there's no bitching here, just discussion, go check out the Chaos Wish List Thread for some bitching :P


If you're going to troll, you may want to try being a bit more subtle. Mods will gobble you up ;)

Ditto

Znail
19-03-2010, 17:02
Most of us are not even saying that we want a Wave Serpent to be a replica of the Storm Raven, we're just advocating being able to assault out of it. I know I know... it seems like we want a gun boat in comparing the two, but we're comparing them because it has assault ramps and lots of other things for 200 pts, Which equates to way way WAY more then what you would get if you spent 200 pts on a Wave Serpent, and that adding assault ramps could be justified for a slight point increase.

Oh and there's no bitching here, just discussion, go check out the Chaos Wish List Thread for some bitching :P



Ditto

On the other hand so will you get more things if you spend some points on a Waveserpent and the rest of the 200 on some other unit, then what you get from a Stormraven. Does this mean that Wavesepents are too cheap?

Sunfang
19-03-2010, 17:08
As has been stated, giving scorpions and banshees (namely banshees here) the ability to assault out of a Wave serpent basically would solve the problem in my opinion. Well also a slight point decrease in Falcon loadouts.

As of now it seems we are relying on sub par specialists, en mass S6 shots and Doom.

Whats a boy to do...

Kalec
19-03-2010, 18:07
Ah yes, your poor, sub-par Fire Dragons and Seer Councils and Warp Spiders and War Walkers, it's a wonder Eldar players win at all with such terrible units.

dhallnet
19-03-2010, 18:16
On the other hand so will you get more things if you spend some points on a Waveserpent and the rest of the 200 on some other unit, then what you get from a Stormraven. Does this mean that Wavesepents are too cheap?

The rest of the 200 points would mean... what, 5 banshees ? (remember, we are talking about assault ramp). We still need to buy that farseer for the "doom" psychic power... Meh.

I don't understand why it would not be ok or totally broken for eldar to have an improved/cheaper falcon/serpent seeing that BA has been given something more or less like a flying land raider for 50 points less than the original :rolleyes:

ago syb
19-03-2010, 19:06
Well you could always play Dark Eldar :P

Sunfang
19-03-2010, 19:19
Ah yes, your poor, sub-par Fire Dragons and Seer Councils and Warp Spiders and War Walkers, it's a wonder Eldar players win at all with such terrible units.

LoL you are failing to see the point in this.

The idea is that while our units on paper look good there are really only two or three functional builds. A lot of the Eldar fluff and previous version play styles indicate that we were fast, mobile, and although took forthought to plan out very nasty when things went our way. As it stands now Eldar have lost their niche so to speak. They are no longer the best psykers as SM took this title. they are no longer the most mobile as SM took that title. They are no longer the most technologically advanced as far weaponry as the Tau took that title. Our living incarnation of a God is a joke with characters like Calgar and Mr. Mestopholes the rabid vampire floating around.

We are forced to take large ammounts of fire dragons to do anything. We have to take Dire Avengers which are not cheap because gaurdians are a joke. Our primary all purpose tank (falcon) is retardedly over priced. Farseer's while being the best psykers in the game are reduced to Doom/guide engines...Banshees really only work in a series of cisrcumstances that dont exist but one in 50 games. Eldar just want their niche back.

It's cute and all but in reality we as Eldar players do need an overhaul. All of the Xeno's do, this is not select to Eldar alone. We all love marines but it gets difficult watching poster boys get everything and watching my beloved dieing race just continue to be fodder in Herohammer.

mafty
19-03-2010, 20:03
Ah yes, your poor, sub-par Fire Dragons and Seer Councils and Warp Spiders and War Walkers, it's a wonder Eldar players win at all with such terrible units.

lol its almost as if you know nothing about eldar to say something so dumb.

the only thing remotely good in what you listed was the fire dragons and council (unless you face null zone, psy hood, rune priests, nids, other eldar, deceiver.....wow guess its a pretty big list now)

warp spiders have 12" guns with AP- and cost an enormous amount of points per model, big deal they can deepstrike, I cant even reliabley kill guardsmen.

war walkers are av10 open topped squadrons........need i say more? on a pen you need a 3+ to wreck it (2+ if its ap1).......seriously 2+ to wreck something, and most guns will pen on a 2+/3+......all that at its amazing BS3.


give me a break bud, sick of people making eldar seem so much better than they actually are

CoolKidRoc
20-03-2010, 03:05
Ah yes, your poor, sub-par Fire Dragons and Seer Councils and Warp Spiders and War Walkers, it's a wonder Eldar players win at all with such terrible units.

Yeah, because warp spiders live so long from those exploding vehicles :P Not to mention the guys who are usually in the vehicles get to shoot them all to death.


lol its almost as if you know nothing about eldar to say something so dumb.

the only thing remotely good in what you listed was the fire dragons and council (unless you face null zone, psy hood, rune priests, nids, other eldar, deceiver.....wow guess its a pretty big list now)

warp spiders have 12" guns with AP- and cost an enormous amount of points per model, big deal they can deepstrike, I cant even reliabley kill guardsmen.

war walkers are av10 open topped squadrons........need i say more? on a pen you need a 3+ to wreck it (2+ if its ap1).......seriously 2+ to wreck something, and most guns will pen on a 2+/3+......all that at its amazing BS3.


give me a break bud, sick of people making eldar seem so much better than they actually are

War Walkers aren't opened topped ;)

But yes everything else about them is true, they die in droves.

enigma-96
20-03-2010, 08:02
I'm just gonna put this out there for all those Eldar players who support the assault ramp idea on the basis that it's needed (You fluff guys can move along), you're not a very good player are you? Or maybe I should be a little more specific, you're not a very good eldar player are you?

Seriously the fact that so many have complained that the Wave Serpent has to sit their for a turn before it can unload its troops tells me that their are a lot of whiny eldar players online. For starters the thing is so damn fast that it is almost guarenteed to be where you want it to be, secondly it is so damn survivable after moving that fast that they become insanely difficult to down with the units nearby, likewise because it is so fast you should be planning it out so that it is in the most favourable position for you, preferably away from as many AT as possible, though even then many AT weapons fail to do anything meaningful unless spammed against it.

Likewise many have complained that the cargo inside the wave serpent isn't very good because it can't survive enemy counter fire. Seriously? :rolleyes: No seriously? You are definately doing something wrong if the enemy has more than one or two troops left to counterattack effectively with. You shouldn't have one wave serpent with one squad of w/e you should have like 3/4 wave serpents full of w/e supported by other fast elements all hitting one enemy flank so hard that the only ones left to respond are the other half which is mostly out of range. Seriously Eldar can't dip into one or two army types and come out victorious, you want to take an effective Wave serpent army? Best leave those foot sloggers at home, you want to smash the crap out of them with a hard infantry force (Good Luck) take wraithlords and an avatar.

I've seen too many people in this thread complain that the eldar don't have the power that they should have, well I agree in some cases that some units are now outdated but the Wave serpent is most definately NOT one of them. People need to realize that Eldar are meant to be hard to play that's the point, if you could just push a button and win then they aren't Eldar they're marines. Eldar are meant to require more careful planning and tactics than other armies.

Tsear
20-03-2010, 08:34
Totally agree with enigma. I play eldar mech, and I can set up a turn 2 banshee charge 95% of the time. I have something like a 5 foot threat range on turn 2, come on. Letting eldar assault out of transports would remove the need to think with this army.

marv335
20-03-2010, 09:23
Letting eldar assault out of transports would remove the need to think with this army.

^This^
This is what people seem to want.

Poseidal
20-03-2010, 10:39
The logical implications of that is it's ok for Blood Angels players not to have to think then?

What assault unit is really that scary? Banshees are getting less and less effective, and the Council is a shooting/biking unit anyway. I would say people are more worried about TH/SS Terminators assaulting them than S3 Howling Banshees.

But regardless of assault ramps or not, the Eldar archetype has been eroded into far too much. There's nothing left for Eldar players any more.

Znail
20-03-2010, 13:26
What is this fixation Eldar players seems to have with being unique? Eldar is plenty of diffrent to other armies. If you dont find them unique enuff then I suggest you switch to Daemons as they are pretty diffrent to other armies. Its unlikely that Eldar will get any more diffrent to other armies then they already are, so if that is realy your problem, then I suggest you drop them.

Ravenous
20-03-2010, 13:38
The logical implications of that is it's ok for Blood Angels players not to have to think then?

Thats about right, when you get dirt cheap, ultra brutal, super fast and dumb durability it pretty much spells out linear tactics ;)

but then again a dumb and easy army sells alot more models then something that requires effort.

Dr.Clock
20-03-2010, 15:01
^this^...

When you are a bunch of blood-crazed, decaying-geneseed, power-armoured, super-human, chainsaw-wielding, fanatic, xenocidal martyr-complexed nutters, then you should be doing everything in your power to get to grips with the enemy and rip his face off... twice.

I've said it before: the 'raven is a HS choice. Points aren't the real issue... the number you can fit in a force is more important. Marines didn't steal the 'most maneuverable' moniker... Wave serpents are still dedicated transports for basically every infantry unit in the book. Drop-pods help you to position units but once they're down, we can usually just fly away and keep plugging you from range.

I don't think anyone would dispute that eldar could do with an update, but 'fixing' the wave serpent by adding an assault ramp? This seems like a desire to have MORE than other lists, rather than just differences.

The whole point of the eldar list is that spamming isn't supposed to work as well as carefully picking your units and using them wisely at precisely the right time. Some of the most successful lists I've created in the past couple years took no duplicates outside of troops. A WL, 2 walkers and a falcon create a great basis for a hammer/anvil list. Using dragons, banshees and scorpions all at once gives you the utility to break enemy advances, defend against unavoidable harassers and eliminate stragglers late in the game. Warp Spiders and walkers are also perfect for harassing flanks to prevent envelopment. Guardians and WLs provide a strong centre that the enemy will be forced to address. DA and flamestorm Guardians provide reliable shock troops that control the crowded board and clear the way for the specialists.

Eldar are a powerful list. Those of us who have played them through many editions know that the days of ruining all before us are gone. We are still fragile and vulnerable to misuse - but this is as it SHOULD be.

Sunfang notes rightly that Eldar require forethought to play. We also require variety. Spamming fire dragons might work for some people, but I'm pretty sure those same people are saying that we are too fragile. Dragons have always been fragile. Maybe throwing them away is not a good idea - use them only to accomplish thing that MUST HAPPEN THIS TURN. Getting my dragons on the board before turn four is rare. In the early game, the enemy is too dense and I will be too exposed if I drop off foolishly. This is going to happen even if we get an assault ramp: pile two full banshee units into the enemy lines turn one and see your eldar list evaporate. At the end of the day, your list needs to survive 5-7 turns with only T3 and point-costs that rival marines. People shouldn't expect thoughtless assault to work with eldar - because it won't. Moving too strongly toward mechanized assaults will make it seem as if the list is built to do this. It isn't... BA is.

FTR: I'd like to see an assault tank... in the HS section and costing like a landraider. I'd probably buy ONE to leave my options open for obligatory WL and walkers.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

massey
20-03-2010, 15:40
Dr. Clock is correct.

Now honestly, Eldar are probably about 5% overpriced for what they do right now. So a 2000 point Eldar list seems roughly equivalent to a 1900 point list in an ork or marine army. This is not the fault of the Eldar codex, it's because of the slight point decrease that has come in with the newer books. It began when the ork boy dropped to 6 points. Since then, all the older books have a little bit too expensive.

But people are talking about trying to price the Wave Serpent up and turn it into a Stormraven. Why would you want to do that? You can make a Razorback 115 points, and take a Falcon for 120. Which would you pick? It'd pick the basic Falcon, in a heartbeat. Does that mean the Razorback sucks? No, it's awesome. It just means that when you stack every upgrade possible onto a vehicle, it becomes inefficient. We knew that already. It says nothing about the Wave Serpent. When you try to make a vehicle do something that it isn't meant to do, you get an inefficient use of points.

Eldar are specialized. They aren't marines. They don't have all-around guys. They don't have stuff that does a little bit of everything. They have guys who are designed to perform one or two roles. The Stormraven? It's an all-around vehicle. It has lots of guns, it goes fast, it carries troops, it carries a dreadnought. And it's priced accordingly. The Stormraven is not overpowered. Yes, it has options the Eldar don't have. So?

CoolKidRoc
20-03-2010, 17:30
<rant>

Ok I'm just going to cover alot of what's been said all at Once.

No one is saying eldar NEED assault ramps or even that they have to be on WAVE SERPENTS.

Read into this what you will. But this isn't a discussion of need, or a discussion of billy has a new G.I. Joe so I want a newer one. It's a discussion of bring back what Eldar used to have anyways. What everyone used to have.

I'm not advicating that Wave Serpents must all have assault ramps, but a purchasable upgrade would be nice.

I don't want a StormRaven, because if I'm moving into position to assault all that firepower will most likely go to waste anyways.

I don't even want to assault 2nd turn, or out of a moving wave serpent everytime.

BUT the OPTION would be really nice to have. As everyone has said again and again, eldar are a very tactical army to play, and at least having the option to assault would be crazy nice to have.

To many games has my opponent opened themselves up where I could have jumped them, but oh... My wave serpent didn't have it's ass pointing in the right direction so now I'm out of range by a couple inches.

If they just had the ability to turn on the spot and still assault that would be a glorious change that would I think make an eldar army what? More Strategic, because honestly how tactical is it to have your rear end pointed at ever heavy weapon the enemy has?

We don't have forward hatches, we don't have side hatches, so being able to spin and assault just makes since of protecting your troops and your vehicle, but no, we have to do these convoluted twists and turns with multiple wave serpents to get our rear pointed in the right direction while keeping it covered or out of the way from the enemy moving to simply be in out disembark area and keep us from assaulting.

Because honestly if our serpent is in range to have a disembark and assault, then 90% of the time the troops we want to assault will be in range to block our disembark, unless of course we're blocking them with what, more wave serpents. Some call that tactics, I just call that a bandaid because of what the current rules force us to do.

Maybe this spearhead release in June will give a vehicle that will fix all this, but who knows what kind of vehicle we'll be getting, and whether it'll just be apoch or not.

But till then I'd like people to stop assuming that all Eldar players are dumb, power gamers who just want everything every other army has, because it's just not true.

</rant>

MetalGecko23
20-03-2010, 17:54
BUT the OPTION would be really nice to have. As everyone has said again and again, eldar are a very tactical army to play, and at least having the option to assault would be crazy nice to have.
A lot of options would be nice to have, that doesn't mean you should get them. Tactical doesn't mean options to do everything. The wave serpent is tactical. Thats why it has guns and troops, guns that can be used for any role and troops to fill any role. How much more tactical do you need? If you give the option for assault ramps it won't be taken for the tactical option it will be spammed as much as possible to make actual use of it. One wave serpent with an assualt ramp isn't going to help you 3 to 4 will change the game. I'm guessing given the option you would see not wave serpents with ramps or all the wave serpents with ramps.
Ramps would allow your fire dragons to jump out kill the leman russ and then assualt a guard unit (given one close enough). Which would allow you to escape return fire. The option for eldar to run screaming into the lines of their opponents while having some of the most durable tanks, would allow the eldar to bypass alot of the fragile nature of the army.


To many games has my opponent opened themselves up where I could have jumped them, but oh... My wave serpent didn't have it's ass pointing in the right direction so now I'm out of range by a couple inches.
Sounds like you got caught out of position....so what? You don't need a rules change because your opponent pulled a fast one on you.


If they just had the ability to turn on the spot and still assault that would be a glorious change that would I think make an eldar army what? More Strategic, because honestly how tactical is it to have your rear end pointed at ever heavy weapon the enemy has?
Very if your marines. Eldar are not but it works fine for marines. My suggestion is to not do that. Though if your smart (not saying you are not) you would position your serpent so that the enemy has to choose between the infantry or the vehicle.


But till then I'd like people to stop assuming that all Eldar players are dumb, power gamers who just want everything every other army has, because it's just not true.
Dumb no, power gamers probably not, wanting what the new kid got, yeah it think you do. Just because you don't say you need it doesn't mean your not implying it heavily.

Kal Taron
20-03-2010, 18:28
This thread just reminded me big time why I prefer Epic. It just seems that GW never stops and thinks the basic rules through but instead slaps special rule upon special rule onto the basic rules with each codex. Whereas Epic has a streamlined and sufficient set of core rules that are only slightly changed in each list. Most often only 1 or 2 tweaks and then the standard profiles. And it works!

If I had a say in the core 40K rules, I'd make a list of all the disembarking possibilities and then try to give them balanced rules. This is just a quick shot so don't take it too serious.

1. Frontal disembark (e.g. Assault Ramp)
Advantage: may assault after disembarking (because of the disadvantage)
Disadvantage: transport counts as open topped on every side you have used the access point of. Should be only available to rather few and expensive vehicles

2. Rear/side disembark
Advantage: may use the vehicle for cover
Disadvantage: obviously farther away from the enemy than 1.

3. Jump off
Advantage: may deploy as deep strike anywhere along movement path
Disadvantage: deep strike has some disadvantages

Then you look at the vehicles and decide what kind of disembarking fits them. Like open topped vehicles can do all 3 and Serpents can do 2. and 3. with Banshee Exarchs having the option to allow assault after disembarking and deep striking.

Pete_x
20-03-2010, 18:36
Ramps would allow your fire dragons to jump out kill the leman russ and then assualt a guard unit (given one close enough). Which would allow you to escape return fire. The option for eldar to run screaming into the lines of their opponents while having some of the most durable tanks, would allow the eldar to bypass alot of the fragile nature of the army.

Unless that leman russ whas somehow carrying a squad of guards I can hardly see this happening.

MetalGecko23
20-03-2010, 20:04
Unless that leman russ whas somehow carrying a squad of guards I can hardly see this happening.
You could also assault a second tank and have a huge chance of killing it in HtoH.
Fire Dragons if you arm them right (Exarch, Fire Pike, Tank Hunters) can take a Leman Russ out from up 9" away with a reasonable chance. Which increases considerably if you are shooting at the side or the rear (goes way up for rear armor) which isn't impossible, its quite the opposite given Eldar speed. So your 9" away from a vehicle you take it out, you don't think their is either another tank or infantry unit within 6" of your unit given the density of Imperial Guard deployments? In short its highly likely you can pull this off.
I'm only talking about a 6 man squad in a basic Wave Serpent too. Which given that everyone would like cheaper units (not unreasonable) and cheaper tanks (also not unreasonable) your killing much more than your points. Even if the squad faces death as a result of this maneuver.

Archangel_Ruined
20-03-2010, 20:16
If you can't get a charge off with the eldar codex as it stands then I'm afraid you really are doing something wrong. This isn't a "You're too stupid, duh" post, honestly, but my experience of playing tournament level pointy ears says the rules are fine as they stand. You've got annoyingly resilient tanks as it is, 5th just made them better as they whizz around early in the game. No more entangled, you don't have to jump out with every penetrating hit and you get a cover save. If you still need the no brain option of an assault ramp (and that's what it is when you consider the units that would gain the most from this change) then perhaps you should sit down and look at your list or play style.

Corrode
20-03-2010, 20:29
You could also assault a second tank and have a huge chance of killing it in HtoH.
Fire Dragons if you arm them right (Exarch, Fire Pike, Tank Hunters) can take a Leman Russ out from up 9" away with a reasonable chance. Which increases considerably if you are shooting at the side or the rear (goes way up for rear armor) which isn't impossible, its quite the opposite given Eldar speed. So your 9" away from a vehicle you take it out, you don't think their is either another tank or infantry unit within 6" of your unit given the density of Imperial Guard deployments? In short its highly likely you can pull this off.
I'm only talking about a 6 man squad in a basic Wave Serpent too. Which given that everyone would like cheaper units (not unreasonable) and cheaper tanks (also not unreasonable) your killing much more than your points. Even if the squad faces death as a result of this maneuver.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the unit would be able to assault a unit other than the one it shot at (or the contents of the unit it shot at if it happened to shoot a transport). It is at that which Pete_x was driving.

Archangel_Ruined
20-03-2010, 20:40
You can assault the contents of a transport, you can also assault surviving vehicles from squadrons, but that's beside the point. Assault ramps wouldn't favour firedragons in any way, not with scorpions, banshees and harlies in the list.

CoolKidRoc
20-03-2010, 22:13
If you can't get a charge off with the eldar codex as it stands then I'm afraid you really are doing something wrong. This isn't a "You're too stupid, duh" post, honestly, but my experience of playing tournament level pointy ears says the rules are fine as they stand. You've got annoyingly resilient tanks as it is, 5th just made them better as they whizz around early in the game. No more entangled, you don't have to jump out with every penetrating hit and you get a cover save. If you still need the no brain option of an assault ramp (and that's what it is when you consider the units that would gain the most from this change) then perhaps you should sit down and look at your list or play style.

It's not about having a no brains option, it's about have an option. If you're playing a half decent player do you know how hard it is to counter an Eldar Mech Assault, you either;

A: Move closer and block the hatch

or

B: Move away and stay out of range

Wow, so it's almost like everyone else has a no brains option to keep from being assaulted by Eldar. And I'm not going to say I'm the best player in the world, because I'm not, but I'm a good player, placing 5th at Bolscon last year and 1st or 2nd in every other Tournament I've played in in since I started playing again in the last 2 years, so I'm pretty sure I have a good sense of how things are played.


You can assault the contents of a transport, you can also assault surviving vehicles from squadrons, but that's beside the point. Assault ramps wouldn't favour firedragons in any way, not with scorpions, banshees and harlies in the list.

First off if vehicles we're squadroned and hit by dragons chances are they are all gone if the dice only were slightly in your favor. ;) (not directed at you archangel, but at the guy thinking dragons can assault everything in someones list lol)

But then again lets talk about how many of those assault units would even be in the list. Personally I'd only ever be fielding one of them, because my list is very depending on the Dragons for AT, seeing how most of Eldars options are unreliable at best. So if having a single squad of Banshees being able to assault is game breaking then I guess I just had no idea how OP they were in the first place.

Archangel_Ruined
20-03-2010, 22:49
I agree that banshees aren't overpowered, the rewrite of cover rules hurt them badly in combat. However, if you could assault straight out of a transport with them they'd move to being a prime choice in many armies as you'd no longer need to think about how to use them properly. The reason that firedragons are so common is that they are reliable due to melta rules and AP1, if banshees could be sprayed at a unit from a fast transport, with banshee masks (which need a rewrite or FAQ regarding cover), and power weapons then they'd be viewed in exactly the same way. They'd become a lot more common overnight. As it stands the codex doesn't need a point and click assault unit as a squad of DA's with blade storm performs the same purpose against most things (their only downside is return fire, but from a fast transport you should be able to position them in such a way you wont get half an army rapid firing you off the board).

CoolKidRoc
20-03-2010, 23:23
I agree that banshees aren't overpowered, the rewrite of cover rules hurt them badly in combat. However, if you could assault straight out of a transport with them they'd move to being a prime choice in many armies as you'd no longer need to think about how to use them properly. The reason that firedragons are so common is that they are reliable due to melta rules and AP1, if banshees could be sprayed at a unit from a fast transport, with banshee masks (which need a rewrite or FAQ regarding cover), and power weapons then they'd be viewed in exactly the same way. They'd become a lot more common overnight. As it stands the codex doesn't need a point and click assault unit as a squad of DA's with blade storm performs the same purpose against most things (their only downside is return fire, but from a fast transport you should be able to position them in such a way you wont get half an army rapid firing you off the board).

I don't think I could ever see a banshee squad as spray and shoot, seeing as how I have to have at least a Doomseer to support them against anything T4 and above. Even then they are extremely unreliable against anything with Invuln saves, or with T5 and up (Plague Marines, Most Nids etc.) Wounding on 5s and 6s will never be better then meltas, even with more attacks Banshees still almost always need 4s to hit.

And even if you did take 3 squads of banshees, what are you going to use for AT to back them up? A couple prisms which will only maybe take out a vehicle or 2 a turn and then what? A well balaneed Eldar army almost (not saying it has too) but almost requires 2 units of dragons leaving the 1 spray and pray banshee squad you are discussing. And if you use them in this way Assault Ramps aren't going to help anyways as you still have to be tactical about them as they really are just glass sheets with power weapons.

But let's just say for a moment, that it's not a wave serpent that gets the assault ramps, what about a new tank filling the FA slots, seeing as there isn't much there getting used now. That's a limit of 3 slots, would that make it more "Thinkable" for eldar having something with the chance to assault on the move?

Archangel_Ruined
21-03-2010, 00:46
Plausible for a new tank, maybe, but it's hard to discuss a vehicle we've never imagined. What would it be armed with, what's the capacity, what AV's are we looking at, will it be FA or HS and, most importantly, how much would it cost? If you've got a slot filling assault vehicle then you can forget banshees altogether, here come the harlies (I thank Phill on a regular basis for disallowing them the serpent, it's the only thing holding them back after all). 12 of them in an assault vehicle is a spray and forget choice, you'll destroy whatever you hit. If you're complaining about return fire when you mush the unit in one phase people will just position the transport to assault one unit and brush into another with one or two models so you've got something to muller in your opponents turn. Admittedly this is a worry with death company in the new BA list but then they're not 18 pts with invulnerable saves, although when it comes to more special rules than you can shake a stick at they're pretty even. I'm not against the idea of a whole new eldar vehicle with an assault ramp but it's hard to discuss it without considering the massive potential for abuse (then again, if I said every black templar was going to get a nifty new haircut in the next codex half the internet would declare it a game breaking change that would render all of 40k unplayable...). As for a lack of serious AT ability without multiple firedragon units I happen to rate swooping hawks as AT choices, what they can't kill they will put out of action whilst you manouvre, and they don't need a transport. Shining spears have their uses too, but I think they're overpriced for their use and decidedly underwhelming against heavy armour. Even with two dragon units you could still field that massive tarpit/deathtrap of fast transport assaulting harlies (now where is your AT counterthreat?). It's tough, but I remain convinced that the existing eldar vehicles don't need or warrant any option for assault ramps, and judging by your sig you don't have any reason to disagree with that. A new vehicle altogether, why not? GW seem to be ramming new choices into every new list they do, lets see what the year twenty-never brings the eldar (seriously, a new list isn't even on the long, long, long range scanners yet, not even the Cat's nose is picking up any sign of the good pointy ears being redone).

CoolKidRoc
21-03-2010, 01:15
Plausible for a new tank, maybe, but it's hard to discuss a vehicle we've never imagined. What would it be armed with, what's the capacity, what AV's are we looking at, will it be FA or HS and, most importantly, how much would it cost? If you've got a slot filling assault vehicle then you can forget banshees altogether, here come the harlies (I thank Phill on a regular basis for disallowing them the serpent, it's the only thing holding them back after all). 12 of them in an assault vehicle is a spray and forget choice, you'll destroy whatever you hit. If you're complaining about return fire when you mush the unit in one phase people will just position the transport to assault one unit and brush into another with one or two models so you've got something to muller in your opponents turn. Admittedly this is a worry with death company in the new BA list but then they're not 18 pts with invulnerable saves, although when it comes to more special rules than you can shake a stick at they're pretty even. I'm not against the idea of a whole new eldar vehicle with an assault ramp but it's hard to discuss it without considering the massive potential for abuse (then again, if I said every black templar was going to get a nifty new haircut in the next codex half the internet would declare it a game breaking change that would render all of 40k unplayable...). As for a lack of serious AT ability without multiple firedragon units I happen to rate swooping hawks as AT choices, what they can't kill they will put out of action whilst you manouvre, and they don't need a transport. Shining spears have their uses too, but I think they're overpriced for their use and decidedly underwhelming against heavy armour. Even with two dragon units you could still field that massive tarpit/deathtrap of fast transport assaulting harlies (now where is your AT counterthreat?). It's tough, but I remain convinced that the existing eldar vehicles don't need or warrant any option for assault ramps, and judging by your sig you don't have any reason to disagree with that. A new vehicle altogether, why not? GW seem to be ramming new choices into every new list they do, lets see what the year twenty-never brings the eldar (seriously, a new list isn't even on the long, long, long range scanners yet, not even the Cat's nose is picking up any sign of the good pointy ears being redone).

Yes, based on the sig I don't need assault ramps ;)

But does that mean I think it's unthinkable for Eldar to have them, No. Like I've been advocating it's choice. I still think people, rate eldar units way higher then they are. Harlies go down just like everything else, if not faster, sure they always get a 5+ save, but against any 10 man squad of medicocur value, 20 attacks is alot of saves to make.

And maybe it's just me, I've never been able to rely on dice being in my favor, that's why I play eldar, so I can re-roll... because if you've ever wanted to see anyone rolled all 1s with Dual TL Las and TL HBolters just come watch me play marines. My dice hate the hell out of me. And that's why I like re-rolls even though those never work for me either hehe.

So I think assaulting harlies sure they get into assault first, but what happens after that, same thing that happens to them after every other assault they win, if you're in a bad spot they die, if you're in a good spot, maybe half of them die.

And based on your reasoning of why Eldar shouldn't have assault vechiles, Harlies and Banshee, SM sure as hell shouldn't get them, I mean come on, Str 4, T4, Lighting Claws, and Thunder hammers with 2+ saves and 5++/3++ invulns are insane. That unit is way to powerful to get a dedicated assault vehicle :P

Archangel_Ruined
21-03-2010, 01:37
Ah-ah-ah... I never said eldar shouldn't have assault vehicles, just that the serpent and falcon shouldn't be upgraded (the door is in entirely the wrong place for starters). I agree that fast moving, flying assault vehicles may be an issue for the BA, but then it's 200pts and AV12 so unlikely to stay on the board long if I think that there's 12 rending assault specialists in power armour and a dreadnought waiting to tear the heart out of my army. I can't really comment on the balance of the storm raven though, I haven't played against it, and even then I'll want a few games to benchmark it on my list of filth. Harlies are a bugger to kill though, high initiative with hit and run and rending is damn helpful. Admittedly large units pull them down with weight of attacks, but they do just the same to terminators, and they don't strike first. Against an average sized unit (lets say ~10) of most things 12 assaulting harlies wont leave much behind to attack back. It's swings and roundabouts, I know, and if the eldar do get a dedicated, slot filling assault vehicle I shant decry it as 'CHEEZ', but I really wouldn't alter the vehicle rules they already have.

Dr.Clock
21-03-2010, 01:40
It has nothing to do with power. You've already conceded that an assault ramp on a serpent would be a poor fix.

My solution?

FA slot.

6 models.

Fast. Skimmer. AV 12 12 10 with serpent power field, open-topped. TL reaper launcher.

Welcome back Venom. Screw the Stormraven: I want a LS storm.

If you make it small, it can conceivably hide itself entirely behind serpents. Now you'll be able to reliably melta-nuke a LR AND get an assault on the occupants from 18". It will, however, take you 2 elites and an FA, and the assault unit won't be big enough to stick around too long.

This adds the ability to 'spice' your lines with a couple super-fast and tiny specialist units without totally redefining the serpent or creating units that are so expensive as to be useless in the majority of eldar lists.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

CoolKidRoc
21-03-2010, 01:46
It has nothing to do with power. You've already conceded that an assault ramp on a serpent would be a poor fix.

My solution?

FA slot.

6 models.

Fast. Skimmer. AV 12 12 10 with serpent power field, open-topped. TL reaper launcher.

Welcome back Venom. Screw the Stormraven: I want a LS storm.

If you make it small, it can conceivably hide itself entirely behind serpents. Now you'll be able to reliably melta-nuke a LR AND get an assault on the occupants from 18". It will, however, take you 2 elites and an FA, and the assault unit won't be big enough to stick around too long.

This adds the ability to 'spice' your lines with a couple super-fast and tiny specialist units without totally redefining the serpent or creating units that are so expensive as to be useless in the majority of eldar lists.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

What is wrong with assault units sticking around, I mean our assault units already need to be around 8 to really be effect IMO so why limit them to six, six banshees can die in the first round of combat unless you're only targeting those 5 man squads and even then you're not likely to kill any more then half of those men in those squads especially if they're SMs.

As nifty as the Venom sounds, I'd like at least an 8 man capacity if not 9. :P

Dr.Clock
21-03-2010, 01:55
Sure... why not 8 :)

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Archangel_Ruined
21-03-2010, 02:00
If it's a dedicated assault vehicle why not the full 12? All that would do is limit the weapons load-out (it'd have to be less than a falcon, for instance). That or you'd pay a hefty chunk of points for it. The problem with discussing assault units that stick around is simple: you're bloody elves, you're not supposed to still be there after I shoot! Your whole list is based on T3 and an average (in dice terms) save, you shouldn't expect any unit to still be around after a turn of milling about in the open.

CoolKidRoc
21-03-2010, 02:10
Sure... why not 8 :)

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Damn should've gone for 10 lol


If it's a dedicated assault vehicle why not the full 12? All that would do is limit the weapons load-out (it'd have to be less than a falcon, for instance). That or you'd pay a hefty chunk of points for it. The problem with discussing assault units that stick around is simple: you're bloody elves, you're not supposed to still be there after I shoot! Your whole list is based on T3 and an average (in dice terms) save, you shouldn't expect any unit to still be around after a turn of milling about in the open.

It's true, we are elves, but if we're so damn expendible then there should be more of us and we should be cheaper right? Or more elite, one or the other I think.

I mean striking scorpions are probably the closest thing to a Space Marine and they are -1 Toughness, +1 Init, +1 Attack and have to be elites. They cost the same in points, and have no other weapon load outs and have to pay points for any special abilities, unlike marines that can combat squad (eh who knows if eldar would lol) but have ATSKNF which comes in really handy.

Start looking at the other ones and they start loosing even more stats. Now that I'm getting into wish listing I'd like to see some of those purchasable exarch powers just become standard abilities and I think that would level out the space elves points more appropriately with current armies that are getting their abilities for free. And maybe add a couple more, like making banshees WS 5 base, and IDK shurican catapults 24 inches so I don't have to move into assault range with my dying race to shoot them lol... (Cracks me up in the Battle Missions book, "Eldar will often pin the enemy at bay with the fire power of Guardians while buying time for the Elites to come in and mop up" yeah right)

Oh, and Assault Vehicles should be "thinkable" ;)

Hellebore
21-03-2010, 02:22
My opinion is that the eldar army needs to be smaller and better. When I wrote my own codex the maximum unit size for each aspect type was 6 (like the 2nd ed units), but those 6 were nasty. however being T3 with W1 still made them fairly easy to kill if you hit. They were however extremely skilled (statswise) and had great technology (armour and weapons).

The background says that the eldar sacrifice armour for speed because speed can protect them. However the tabletop game rules simply do not reflect that AT ALL. So the eldar sacrifice armour for ... nothing. Any tank can get a 4+ cover save and doesn't have to waste its weapons to do so. The ability to jump over intervening terrain is not that great, dozer blades make the chances of terrain interferring with ground tanks minimal.

Imagine if Shooting in 40k was an opposed roll - BS vs I. THEN the eldar's 'speed' might actually mean something and them being harder to hit would be compensation for having crappy armour. Imagine if Skimmers received a 5+ cover save at combat speed, THEN the crappy armour on a skimmer would be offset by their speed.

Remember that in 3rd ed they artificially reduced skimmer armour to offset the ability to downgrade penetrating hits to glancing hits. That ability meant that a heavily armoured skimmer was completely nuts and hard to destroy, so by giving them reduced armour it balanced against increased damage table protection.

Now, much of the time no skimmer in the game (eldar or not) actually benefits from being a skimmer. It is far easier and more advantageous to get a 4+ cover save from intervening units and/or terrain than it is to simply go flat out. Flat out has two big disadvantages and one big advantage and one minor advantage. It can't shoot or disembark anything, but it gets to go further and has a 4+ cover save. Since the 4+ cover save can be received by ANY VEHICLE at any time so long as they are 50% obscured from enemy fire (a Chimera can be 50% obscured by a unit of guardsmen) WITHOUT giving up their shooting or disembarking, the bonus for flat out is pitiful. Add onto that that Skimmers can still be destroyed on an immobilised result and the current edition doesn't do ANY favours to skimmers.

That doesn't inclde Tau skimmers that don't even GET the flat out bonus because they aren't fast. So they are poorly armoured tanks that can jump over terrain.

Given the lack of substantial bonus and the presence of tangible draw backs of being a skimmer (fast or otherwise) in 40k currently, they really need to either redo the skimmer rules or drop the stupid enforcement of crappy armour values on skimmers for no good reason.

Hellebore

CoolKidRoc
21-03-2010, 02:29
My opinion is that the eldar army needs to be smaller and better. When I wrote my own codex the maximum unit size for each aspect type was 6 (like the 2nd ed units), but those 6 were nasty. however being T3 with W1 still made them fairly easy to kill if you hit. They were however extremely skilled (statswise) and had great technology (armour and weapons).

Hellebore

But how did they hold up to shooting, that's the problem I run into right now. Especially playing GKs, For 8 Models, IG is taking 50 Models, They might not be as strong, but with that many shooting and assaulting it widdles 8 Models down really really fast.

Archangel_Ruined
21-03-2010, 02:30
Come the next codex (whenever that is) I'd be seriously suprised if the dedicated combat aspects don't get WS5 and A2 basic. It's a problem with creep and the prevalence of MEQ that eldar suffer. If you were cutting down units before they got to strike (as you should) then a well used army would work rather well. I do think that eldar should always be an army that severely punish you for mistakes, that's the downside of flying space elves, surely?

CoolKidRoc
21-03-2010, 02:33
I agree, but what about when you're not making mistakes. I've been playing against my friends' new Nids and I have found that other then sneaky objective grabs and the like. Eldar can not go head to head against them. And with the number of models they can put out (especially free that sprout) they like to fan out and converge on you not leaving you any room to maneuver to.

Archangel_Ruined
21-03-2010, 02:46
From the first time I saw the nid codex I've been saying that hormagaunts were the best unit in that list. Forget MC's, a ton of cheap, insanely fast critters that wound anything on 4's and just charge on regardless if they fail the behaviour test are game winners. Short of meching up and trying to take down the synapse creatures there isn't a lot many armies can do against them. If you can drop the big gribblies and stay in vehicles at least things get easier from there. I don't think any eldar list will ever be able to go toe to toe with a horde, that's not the point. 30 strong units of anything spell the death of any elite unit in combat, it isn't just you pointy ears that suffer on that front. None of my armies have a clear cut plan against hordes like that anymore, I used to sit back and fire away, hoping to thin out spaces to move into, with deepstriking units, infiltrators and outflanking I always feel I need a bigger board these days. It's tough but it makes winning feel that much better.

Dr.Clock
21-03-2010, 03:44
Edit: Whoops! Next page!...

@ FA transport slot a moment ago...

Put twelve on there and people start using storm-guardians in open transports. Bad idea.

Fluff-wise, this is a very hazardous assignment and would be taken on only by dedicated specialists. In addition, it ideally needs to be the size that it can hide very well behind the masses of serpents.

Thought: put Dark Reapers in one for rapid re-deploy.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

MetalGecko23
21-03-2010, 06:16
My opinion is that the eldar army needs to be smaller and better. When I wrote my own codex the maximum unit size for each aspect type was 6 (like the 2nd ed units), but those 6 were nasty. however being T3 with W1 still made them fairly easy to kill if you hit. They were however extremely skilled (statswise) and had great technology (armour and weapons).
I think you would be satisfying your Eldar fluff daemons with this idea but.....would most likely make the Eldar even weaker. Your objective capturing would be very limited.


That doesn't inclde Tau skimmers that don't even GET the flat out bonus because they aren't fast. So they are poorly armoured tanks that can jump over terrain.
Tau Hammerheads and Skyrays have 13 front armor, thats about as good as it gets for the most part. Devilfish have 12 which isn't bad either. Add that to the fact that they can for 5pts almost always have a 4+ cover save and the little Tau skimmer tank doesn't look so weak.

Znail
21-03-2010, 06:43
It's not about having a no brains option, it's about have an option. If you're playing a half decent player do you know how hard it is to counter an Eldar Mech Assault, you either;

A: Move closer and block the hatch

or

B: Move away and stay out of range

Wow, so it's almost like everyone else has a no brains option to keep from being assaulted by Eldar. And I'm not going to say I'm the best player in the world, because I'm not, but I'm a good player, placing 5th at Bolscon last year and 1st or 2nd in every other Tournament I've played in in since I started playing again in the last 2 years, so I'm pretty sure I have a good sense of how things are played..

Ofcourse, its quite possible for an Eldar player to position his Waveserpent or Falcon so that both options A and B has less then 50% of working. Even if it works so does the required running keep the enemy unit busy and you can try again the next turn for better luck.


First off if vehicles we're squadroned and hit by dragons chances are they are all gone if the dice only were slightly in your favor. ;) (not directed at you archangel, but at the guy thinking dragons can assault everything in someones list lol)

But then again lets talk about how many of those assault units would even be in the list. Personally I'd only ever be fielding one of them, because my list is very depending on the Dragons for AT, seeing how most of Eldars options are unreliable at best. So if having a single squad of Banshees being able to assault is game breaking then I guess I just had no idea how OP they were in the first place.

Banshees are no more limited then the Stormraven, wich is the reason for this thread. Most BA lists wont even include a Stormraven so I guess there is no reason for this thread at all then?

CoolKidRoc
21-03-2010, 13:29
Ofcourse, its quite possible for an Eldar player to position his Waveserpent or Falcon so that both options A and B has less then 50% of working. Even if it works so does the required running keep the enemy unit busy and you can try again the next turn for better luck.



Banshees are no more limited then the Stormraven, wich is the reason for this thread. Most BA lists wont even include a Stormraven so I guess there is no reason for this thread at all then?

Why is there no reason for this thread, it's a discussion of if people think that Eldar have the possibility of having assault ramps, or whether you think it's "Unthinkable"