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jsullivanlaw
12-03-2010, 22:06
I hope they don't do chaos legions. I don't want to be pidgeon holed into using special characters and doing ugly paint schemes on all my guys. What i want to see is "The Big Book of Chaos". The "Big Book of Chaos" would replace Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Codex: Chaos Daemons. Both of those books suck pretty hard anyway. Codex: Chaos Space Marines has pretty limited options and just isn't all that fun to play. Codex: Chaos Daemons suffers from some pretty severe design flaws, mostly in it's forced deepstrike deployment and waves rules. It also lacks the shooting ability to deal with fast armies (which they can't catch) and mech spam.

The "Big Book of Chaos" could solve all this. We would get one really big and expensive book that everyone would want. This book would have a lot of options for Chaos Marine types, as well as containing options for summoning "real" daemons, not those pathetic lesser ones. The real kicker, though, is that the "Big Book of Chaos" could include cultist options as well, with cheap dudes and some tanks and support vehicles.

I don't think the "Big Book of Chaos" would be overpowered or would have too many options. Codex: Imperial Guard has like 27 tanks! Plus, any imperial army can simply ally with Daemonhunters and Witchhunters. Basically, the "Big Book of Chaos" would be the exact opposite of what Chaos is now. It would have loads of options and you could have a wide variety of forces to play around with. The rules would actually work for making your favorite legion, or for playing a random invading chaos force. These rules would fit the overall chaos fluff much better as well.

We could even get rid of Lash, once and for all. It is pretty cheesy and i would much rather have lots of decent options rather than one stupidly broken one.

MOMUS
12-03-2010, 22:20
So basically, you want the 2nd ed codex?

jsullivanlaw
12-03-2010, 22:26
Well, without the cheese of 2nd edition. Mainly i am just trying not to throw my Daemon army out in the ***** street.

Firmlog
12-03-2010, 22:35
thank god I sold my chaos army whem 3rd came out.

yah chaos need/should have a much more inclusive codex. Why would all these legions give up the righteous power of the emperor for a weaker less usable fighting style.

They gave up the Emperor for power, they should have more, and what about all those traitorous guard running around, that usually what the Imperium fights anyways. All these alien scum are insignifigant to the threat of chaos in the imperium. (except maybe orks)

I have for quite a while wanted a true traitor guard, chaos that can summon demons and a respectable way to summon them. Each chaos god should have their demons summoned in a different fashion. Not only could it be fun/fluffy but fair. After all, as and example, if khorne had to summon demons by killing to build up summon points they would be outnumbered until they started fighting. Isn't that fluffy? And it wouldn't even prevent the use of the demon codex in 40k or the current chaos codex which is more a rebel marine codex and not a god specific one.

If chaos could mix demons, marines and guard I would be much more likely to play chaos again.

And finally, WTH about alpha legion? I really think they need a different/ better chaos (general) codex. Or a traitor guard codex better thought out than the appendix in the sisters codex.

I think the new Tyranid codex is and exellent example of what could be for chaos.

SandQueen
12-03-2010, 22:41
Im fairly new but just in reading the previous chaos codex I can tell that it has exponentially more options and hits alot harder than the current. The Armory costs alone cover an entire page and their descriptios are longer than some army lists. From what I can tell you can do darn near anything but the current dual codecies seem to be fundamentally lacking in comparison.

Dark Primus
12-03-2010, 22:47
I still want these two armies seperated, but both sides need far more bost.

Just a few for Chaos Daemons example, they need more powerful anti-tank weapons.
Change Horros BS3 to BS4 and they will be better overall.
I want to see more special rules that could benefit whole squads instead of just individuals.

I would want to see more units for Daemons given in fluff they have huge load of Daemons that are not represented in the codex i would want to see.
One such example would be the Blood Prince.

Mannimarco
12-03-2010, 22:48
absolutely correct

people may bitch and complain that 3.5 was broken and cheesy such as OMFG IRON WARRIORS HAVE 4 HEAVY SUPPORT!!!1! and the slaaneshi siren prince and the daemon bomb lists or tanked up champions with all kinds of daemonic gifts making them capable of killing stuff single handedly (people forget these were expensive as hell)

however id happily play against 3.5 instead of half the cheesed out uber lists we see in todays game

SandQueen
12-03-2010, 22:54
however id happily play against 3.5 instead of half the cheesed out uber lists we see in todays game

Lash is a silly, silly power. This coming from someone who plays Eldar (its my job to get stupid with the mind-powers, my army depends on it sometimes)

But I think the Kai Gun sounds really, really cool.

Firmlog
12-03-2010, 22:54
Yeah, OMG Iron warriors can take 4 hvy support, hell IG can take 9 of just about any choice, without the loss of Fast attack choices, which they can also take 9.

SandQueen
12-03-2010, 23:04
Yeah, OMG Iron warriors can take 4 hvy support, hell IG can take 9 of just about any choice, without the loss of Fast attack choices, which they can also take 9.

And they can fit those nine Heavies into a 2000 list if they dont kit them out too much and still take two cheap troops and a low budget HQ.

Personally I'd take a silver Basilisk and some Predators over NINE Leman Russes

Pacorko
12-03-2010, 23:27
Well, if you and all the scores of thousands players are willing to preorder it at the 50 quid or more it would set you all back, I'm pretty sure the guys at the studio would oblige and the MKT goon-schmucks wopudl laugh all the way to the bank with their yearly bonus.

Me, I would really love separate Codices... C: Iron Warriors, C: Night Lords, C: Death Guard and C: Red Corsairs would rock my (and a quite a thousand) boat(s), even if they are a bit short when compared to 'dex: Space Marine.

By the way, I believe this is what we will eventually see when 6Ed arrives next year--or no later than June 2012.

Eos Rahh
12-03-2010, 23:28
As long as I am not forced to take cult marines as troops or gian other gifts from the gods I am happy.

I fear that when the chaos dex does show up that will be the case which will break my heart more then the current dex already does. Not a fan of special chars at all and to have take XXXXX special char of deathguard/nurgle/1ksons/tzeent/noisemarines/ect/ect I will be very happy.

I mean other then that I dont thik they could make things anyworse.

CbmH2xX
13-03-2010, 03:24
I want an updated version of 3.5 not a hey we took alot of stuff out but, now you are able to take plague marines with slannesh princes. Oh and chao's Fast attack is a uber embarrassment to GW staff. Come on! 40 pt spawn.... over costed bikes? Raptors that are basically crappy assault marines that can carry a mark of a god but, can be taken out because its an Icon on a designated model in the squad.

There should be one book, and only one. Yes, we could be like space marines with more than one flavor but, lets face it space marines are 70% of GW sales therefore it wouldn't make enough revinue to create and support numerous books.

I do believe though that chaos is the most powerful race period. Look at 3.5 and count how many units and weapons we had then go count the new dex. Its simple they litterally make chaos weaker by taking units out and then dumbing down the codex to extreme measures.

SandQueen
13-03-2010, 03:31
Raptors that are basically crappy assault marines that can carry a mark of a god but, can be taken out because its an Icon on a designated model in the squad.


Ive noticed this and it just seems dumb.

Some of the Exarch powers it makes sense. Such as Infiltrate for Striking Scorpions. Its sort of like the Exarch saying "Everyone shut up and follow me!"

With CSM, since its just on a random guy, its more like "Hey guys I found this rib cage on a stick so that means all of you are angry"

I'm sorry but that's dumb. It makes it even worse when someone takes a Vindicare or (my personal favorite) starts getting frisky with Mind-War. And removing the special powers of entire squads.

Repentant Son
13-03-2010, 05:50
Ive noticed this and it just seems dumb.

Some of the Exarch powers it makes sense. Such as Infiltrate for Striking Scorpions. Its sort of like the Exarch saying "Everyone shut up and follow me!"

With CSM, since its just on a random guy, its more like "Hey guys I found this rib cage on a stick so that means all of you are angry"

I'm sorry but that's dumb. It makes it even worse when someone takes a Vindicare or (my personal favorite) starts getting frisky with Mind-War. And removing the special powers of entire squads.

Ribcage on a stick :wtf:

Also, standards with Mark of Khorne are generally better then Berzerkers, less expensive but can still pack a punch. They are also armed with bolters if the need calls for it (like some nasty Daemon Prince/ChaosLord/Tooled up generic chapter master, you would rather shoot them and kill most of their squad support or if on lonesome take off a wound or two).

I may be wrong, but aren't Vindicares and Mind War capable units generally one or two per army? And that means 1) they aren't targetting your other big hitters, and 2) if they are taken out their special abilities are gone.

Vermin-thing
13-03-2010, 06:33
I'm in despair! The total and utter failure that is C: CSM has left me in despair!

ARRRRRGGGG!!!

I am going to rewrite C:CSM from the ground up. Burn the heresy. <<< Coming from a chaos player.

Anyone who wants to help write it or play-test is welcome.

shabbadoo
13-03-2010, 06:53
Ive noticed this and it just seems dumb.

Some of the Exarch powers it makes sense. Such as Infiltrate for Striking Scorpions. Its sort of like the Exarch saying "Everyone shut up and follow me!"

With CSM, since its just on a random guy, its more like "Hey guys I found this rib cage on a stick so that means all of you are angry"

:eyebrows:

Actually, it makes more sense for Chaos than for Eldar. For Chaos they have an icon of their god, which either boosts their morale or draws the god's attention to them such that they gain a blessing. This is an instant thing that only requires a properly anointed Chaos icon.

In the case of the Eldar, and Exarch powers make no sense, mainly as when the hell did anyone ever magically gain ninja stealth skillz from somebody saying "Follow me. Oh, and if you do, you will suddenly have ninja skillz without the need for years of actual training!"

Still, I am not so keen on the Icon thing. if a unit is Marked by a god, they will be innately marked. Icons could give a minor benefit, but marks should be things that manifest upon the unit members, as per the fluff. Daemons could easily be rolled into one book, the option to have fully daemon armies being opened up through HQ choices. It would also open up other interesting possibilities, such as an army led by a Chaos Sorcerer Lord and his elite cabal of sorcerers and their summoned daemon army.

One giant book would be great, but I think the only way it would happen is if the model support is huge to go along with it. Perhaps 4+ plastic kits and a few metal character models to begin with, with a minimum of 2 more kits in two additional waves(total of 8+ plastic sets). The "short list"(listed in no particular order of precedence) of plastic sets is huge for Chaos.

Units of primary concern:

1. Dreadnought
2. Raptors
3. Havocs
4. Obliterators
5. Horrors/Flamers
6. Screamers
7. Plaguebearers
8. Undivided Daemons
9. Noise Marines
10 Plague Marines
11. Thousand Sons
12. Daemon Prince

Units of secondary concern:

1. Berserkers(they really need a re-do, but they do have palstic kit so they go here)
2. Chaos Veterans(can be made from other kits, but would be good to have a unique set for them)
3. Blood Thirster
4. Lord of Change
5. Great Unclean One
6. Keeper of Secrets
7. Cultists(if added to the army list)
8. Mutants(if added to the army list)

Units of tertiary concern:

1. Rhino(spikes do not a Chaos vehicle make)
2. Predator(spikes do not a Chaos vehicle make)
3. Land Raider(spikes do not a Chaos vehicle make)
4. Vindicator(spikes do not a Chaos vehicle make)

As to the generic Space Marine vehicles, I'd rather see fully new kits for them themed specifically for Chaos. Lots of the usual plate trim with dags and rivets, separate chaos symbols(Undivided and Dedicated), etc. That list of units(which still does not include every single one of the Chaos units) that need to go to plastic is MASSIVE. Consequently, the potential sales for a monstrously re-vitalized Chaos codex is MASSIVE too. For as popular an army as Chaos is, that list of units needing plastic models is crazy big. GW has their work cut out for them.

IcedAnimals
13-03-2010, 07:29
I'm in despair! The total and utter failure that is C: CSM has left me in despair!

ARRRRRGGGG!!!

I am going to rewrite C:CSM from the ground up. Burn the heresy. <<< Coming from a chaos player.

Anyone who wants to help write it or play-test is welcome.

Zetsuboushita! your quote has left me...wanting to rewatch that show.

Vermin-thing
13-03-2010, 08:59
Zetsuboushita! your quote has left me...wanting to rewatch that show.

Ep. 2 of the new OVA is out, and wow is it funny. :D

Not to detail this thread any more...

I will be writing it like the big book of chaos with marines, traitor guard, cultists/mutants, and daemons all rolled into one tome.

Into the eye of terror:

>>> http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249375 <<<

Lord of Worms
13-03-2010, 09:01
That list of units(which still does not include every single one of the Chaos units) that need to go to plastic is MASSIVE. Consequently, the potential sales for a monstrously re-vitalized Chaos codex is MASSIVE too. For as popular an army as Chaos is, that list of units needing plastic models is crazy big. GW has their work cut out for them.

I dont want to wait that long. Codex now, models later. :shifty:

shabbadoo
13-03-2010, 09:46
Then be happy with a PDF which will bear only a passing semblance to the printed codex when it comes out(along with new models), as GW doesn't release a codex without accompanying models.

Lord of Worms
13-03-2010, 10:02
Then be happy with a PDF which will bear only a passing semblance to the printed codex when it comes out(along with new models), as GW doesn't release a codex without accompanying models.

I know that. But that is a policy that I would like to see change as well. Having a PDF now, is better than something at an undetermined future point in print also. I dont play 40k anymore because of this crappy codex, and 5th ed rules. Im waiting for the Kali Yuga to cycle through and get the garbage out of its system.

Corpse
13-03-2010, 11:50
Why sell your models when GW will only get more expensive? That's like feeding the butcher that takes your cows for free.

I kept certain old armies just for converting and they are still legal. Marking down the years my nurgle CSM have gone without a single buy; about 6 years. The idea that they collect dust and look even more nurgle-esque? Priceless.

Lord of Worms
13-03-2010, 23:20
Im not selling anything. Im still working on my army, I just dont play it.

adreal
13-03-2010, 23:41
As long as GW get off the special character high they are on, then the chaos codex wont suck donkey nuts.

Right now I can do a passable emporer's children army, okay I'm using plague marines and beserkers to represent units with combat drugs, but it's doable.

If GW force me to take lucius, which would preclude certain units to me, (also would leave a basic chaos lord even worse off but meh) noise marines would stay the way they are, EC is more then just noise marines, yes they did tweek the marines to make them more suceptable to noise, but they also induldged in combat drug usage, which you can't represent in the basic noise marine squad option.

That being sdaid, noise termie would be alot of fun....

nagash42
18-03-2010, 08:21
That being sdaid, noise termie would be alot of fun....

or berzerker/nurgle/tzeentch termies.

Also I'd make chaos psychic powers more deadly as they harness the warp alot more then the other races and quick fix just give them the powers in the witch hunter enemies list for the rogue psyker.

GrimZAG
18-03-2010, 09:15
Perhaps this would make the "Big Book of Chaos" undivided...

AndrewGPaul
18-03-2010, 09:29
I'd like to see Cult status being an upgrade for regular Chaos Space Marine squads, rather than special squads of their own. There's no good reason why you couldn't have Raptor or Havoc squads from thre Death Guard or Thousand Sons.

Hunger
18-03-2010, 12:37
Hmm. The part of me that likes completeness wishes to see a Marine codex for every first-founding chapter, plus a generic 'DIY chapter' Codex Space Marines.

To compliment this I would like to see a codex for each Chaos legion, together with a generic Codex Chaos Space Marines, more like the 3rd edition one. That lord was SUPPOSED to be made into a monster, god-specific daemons SHOULD be featured in these codices.

However, the part of me that likes unusual, unique and unsupported armies would prefer that they keep the rest of the LATD as it is now - one that you can make yourself without restrictions and limits. I don't want to have a codex dictating what I can and can't do - if an opponent is unhappy with my army list then they don't get a game.

Tiller5
18-03-2010, 13:57
I was under the impression that the 4th Edition Codex was so bereft of options as a knee-jerk reaction to the perceived complexity that was the 3.5 Edition Codex. Whilst I had trouble to understand the many wargear choices in the older 'Dex, I got there in the end and it allowed for a great variety in choice.

That being said, I'm not sure I would be keen on seeing another massive composite Codex like that again, as it would invariably lead to certain powerful options getting taken all the time, leaving the vast majority 'on the shelf' (eg. Lash spam, Daemon Princes, Bloodcrushers etc). On the other hand; I do like choice, especially when it allows me to make heavily background-themed armies, so I guess its all swings and roundabouts really.