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CKO
16-03-2010, 20:34
There is a comfort zone that comes with marine players complaining about other marine codexes whenever a new marine codex comes out. The usual response is they can do everything the marine codex can do except better. The fact is marines all have the same stats, wargear, and vehicles the only thing that can change is rules. New psychic powers, new wargear, and a couple of unique units, it is natural for people to be jealous of new miniatures and new rules.


Marine players will return back to their codex after they have played a few games. The main reason being is that players whether bring extra units then have to pay extra points for fast vehicles. Another thing people always say is that certain things are cheaper thats because the game designers are getting a better grasp of the value of units or equiptment under 5th edition.

Do you think there will be alot of marine players abandoning their codex for the Blood Angel codex?

Starchild
16-03-2010, 20:41
Do you think there will be alot of marine players abandoning their codex for the Blood Angel codex?Yes. Fast Predators, Vindicators, and Rhinos are simply too good to pass up. If Mat Ward's mission was to boost SM sales, he will certainly make his masters proud. :eyebrows:

Project2501
16-03-2010, 20:45
You pretty much already answered you're own question.

I think people will creep the BA codex, especially people that have made/use their own/obscure chapter, but I don't think people will suddenly start playing Imperial Fists with the BA codex, much less sell heir fists off and start over with BA.

If that's what you meant that is.

Thommy H
16-03-2010, 20:54
Space Marines are the new Dark Angels... That's in terms of whiny players complaining they got shafted, not actual Codex creep.

CKO
16-03-2010, 21:30
I think Matt Ward has done his job perfectly, create a mirage that makes marine players buy the codex and maybe 1-2 units resulting in an extra $100 per marine player.

However people will go back to the marine codex, for 2 ba rhinos you can get 3 sm rhinos. People dont realize that 15 extra points per fast vehicle is alot in terms of wargear, thats like saying that the sm tactical squad get the combi-weapon and meltagun for free. So for every fast vehicle you take you are giving up alot of wargear.

slingersam
16-03-2010, 21:51
I think Matt Ward has done his job perfectly, create a mirage that makes marine players buy the codex and maybe 1-2 units resulting in an extra $100 per marine player.

However people will go back to the marine codex, for 2 ba rhinos you can get 3 sm rhinos. People dont realize that 15 extra points per fast vehicle is alot in terms of wargear, thats like saying that the sm tactical squad get the combi-weapon and meltagun for free. So for every fast vehicle you take you are giving up alot of wargear.

One of the smartest things I've read on the forums in a long time. In terms of no brainer choices their are only really 2 choices in the whole codex and those are the sanguinary priests, and maybe the baal preds. But everything else is expensive, but not unusable in the codex. Special Characters are always under-priced for what they do so I never mention them.

Thommy H
16-03-2010, 21:51
You know what's ironic? I'm planning to run my Dark Angels using this Codex - see, I'd probably have gone over to C:SM if it could have accommodated my army, but I have something ridiculous like eight Elites using that book. But with Dreadnoughts being shifted to Heavy Support and footslogging Vanguard standing in for some of my Veterans in C:BA, I can actually fit all my Terminators in now! I may even be able to include the Interrogator-Chaplain I bought for the hell of it by counting some of my desperate-for-redemption Veterans as Death Company...

SanguinaryDan
16-03-2010, 21:59
You can't really look at the added cost for vehicles in a vacuum. You need to consider what they are meant to support and how that will effect the army. Consider that an Assault Squad can lose it's jump packs for a 35 point discount to their transport. Suddenly that 50 point Rhino is dirt cheap. Or that Fast twin Lascannon Razorback now costs only as much as the base twin Heavy Bolter. And consider a 35 point discount to a Land Raider.:evilgrin:

Will lots of folks try out the BA Codex? Of course they will. It's the new toy and they want to play. Some of them will like it enough to drop C:SM. Most of them will realize that their already small Space Marine army gets smaller and more specialized. They won't like that because it's not how they see Marines. If it was they'd already play Blood Angels.:D

jamesterjlrb
16-03-2010, 22:10
Also there are quite a few options that are in C:SM and not in BA. Thunderfire, Ven dread, ironclad, LS storm, chapter master all spring to mind.

CKO
16-03-2010, 22:19
You can't really look at the added cost for vehicles in a vacuum. You need to consider what they are meant to support and how that will effect the army.

I am not looking at it in vacuum, I am considering the overall effect it has on an army, and that is 50-100 points of wargear. If a player tries to make the exact same list with BA thinking I can have fast vehicles they will find that they will have to give up wargear or not use a unit. I dont know if people will value having fast vehicles over extra wargear or losing 1 unit.

As far as the assault marine discount making it about the same, well it should they are Blood Angels there should be an incentive to make us use that unit as our main troop choice. Matt Ward gives us a discount on assault marines transports and he gives them descent of angels two things that makes them slightly better choice, more importantly assault marines have bp and cc weapons meaning that you have to buy new models to use that discount. Say what you like GW's marketing strategy is pretty sound.

rabblerouser
16-03-2010, 22:30
You can't spam ironclads with the BA codex
You also can't field a master of the forge on bike, and can't make a very shooty army
It's a tradeoff

Aegius
16-03-2010, 23:12
I personally feel that the C:SM players that will move away to the BA codex are the same people that field Vulkan every game. Leaving us codex players to be codex players again. :)

Corpse
17-03-2010, 01:20
I prefer the 'pazaz' of the base loyalist codex over their chaos-wanabe codexes. (You would agree with me if you knew how much of 3.5 chaos codex rules/options were handed out to loyalist codexes afterward while 4.0 got shafted)

In all fairness, I still envy the vanilla codex more then any other when I use chaos. Fleeting terminators, infinity gate librarians shuffling 20 terminators across the table in an instant. Outflank armies that make people consider Alpha Legion:Loyalist Codex. Stuff like that still vastly superior to most of the meta that the other codexes pull for marine players. In serious comparisons, they pull more damage per point then any other marine codex, even chaos. (and that is hardcore comparing to chaos' damage pool)

Bikes as troops, spamming terminators and best synergetic units/characters to boast them, long range firepower on par with imperial guard units.... Drop pod forces like 30 sternguard+vulkan and 30 combi-meltas, split the units when they drop on first turn in a drop pod army and vaporize 6 vehicles???

Vanilla codex, hands down beats the new angel codex. I say that with all my 11 years experience behind that vote. (played all armies, I paint and sell armies, playing them before I do, well over 70k pts of stuff passed through me of all army types possible)

Deus Mechanicus
17-03-2010, 01:42
I have a melta/flamer dreadnought heavy mech/pod Salamanders army as it is.

Though im find the "Angels Encarmine" color scheme attractive (like white Death Company and Sanguinary Guard? Haven't seen it but it sounds delicious)

So i will wait till the codex comes out. If i can make a radically different army (in terms with playing style) with the codex i could give it go :)

But i don't want essentially the same army in two different color schemes :)

SanguinaryDan
17-03-2010, 02:00
I am not looking at it in vacuum, I am considering the overall effect it has on an army, and that is 50-100 points of wargear. If a player tries to make the exact same list with BA thinking I can have fast vehicles they will find that they will have to give up wargear or not use a unit. I dont know if people will value having fast vehicles over extra wargear or losing 1 unit.
Ah! I see what you mean now.:o I can't imagine many folks expect to be able to directly import their Codex marines lists into the BA codex. If it could work like that the book would be an epic failure.

But I do agree with you that players need to decide if Fast (and the other bits) is worth the trade offs they'll have to make. Ward has made BA an assault army with serious support firepower. It's something that Codex could almost do with... oh, hell. What's name? The guy with Lightning Claws?:p But they can't match the overall effectiveness in the movement and CC phases that BA now have.

Nilla marines will be able to man for man outshoot a Blood Angels army, particularly once the vehicles start blowing up. But that's always been the challenge for assault armies. Can you get to the other guy before he's worn you down to the point of no way to win.

Vaden
17-03-2010, 02:01
I've played against new BA. The army is small. Really small. As in, 32 Infantry and 6 vehicles in 1850. I had him vastly outnumbered. You kill one of their units, one of their vehicles, and it hurts them a lot. Some one mentioned that the assault marines can ditch their jump packs and get a 35 point discount. This is true. They also cost 18 points each. So, you pay that little bit extra for the pistol/CCW, but SW get that on Grey Hunters for 16. Yes, all the vehicles are fast, that is an advantage. But they can't field as many of them. 10 Death Company, before you add on any items, is 200 points. Bump them up to have jump packs, 350. Add on Wargear, 450. Everything in the army is so expensive.

TL;DR Yes they're hard hitting and good, but they pay for it in points. Have no fear.

Warnoober
17-03-2010, 02:06
Speaking of Blood Angels, I'm thinking of starting a SM army, and I might as well go with the new hotness.

MY question is: Where should I start? Would the Black Reach stuff work okay? Then kind of build from there? I'm thinking of doing something like 800-1000 points.

Maybe add in some Scouts and a Rhino or something.

Only real experience I have with 40K is Necrons. And then only barely.

Thanks!

LKHERO
17-03-2010, 02:10
but SW get that on Grey Hunters for 16.

You're 1 point over. This is what makes Grey Hunters vastly superior than BA troops. My fully equipped Grey Hunter squad completely trumps the BA squad in terms of flexibility and what it can do in battle with counter-attack, a Rhino transport, wolf standard, mark of the wolfen, cbM and Meltagun.

Voss
17-03-2010, 02:12
You can't spam ironclads with the BA codex

This is true.
But the BA have alternatives to the ironclad, which they can spam. In fact, they can spam _more_.


You also can't field a master of the forge on bike
also true, for what this is worth. Not trying to be denigrating with this, I'm just not sure what function this serves. Bikes, in my experience, go pop.

and can't make a very shooty army
So very, very not true. In fact, I'm curious where you got this impression from?
Mind you, yes, you still can't build a list to outshoot guard. But as far as marine lists go, it can be just as shooty. Possibly a little more, as you can use the discount you get on devastator weapons to squeeze in the points difference on some of the tanks. Or, if you're particularly cunning, use the discount on other things to give you an edge.

I have the feeling though, to reply to some other sentiments I've seen, that the general idea that 'BA lists will be smaller than standard marine lists' is an inaccuracy that bad lists will make true. They certainly can be, and there are probably some good lists that will do so. But you can also build good lists that _aren't_ smaller, if you pay attention to what suits the list, rather than whats new, uber and 'necessary.'


Corpse definitely has few points on what you can't do with BA book that you can do with the standard book. Though I'm not 100% positive that you need vulkan for that sternguard setup (which BA can still do otherwise), and I definitely don't think its a 'hands down' win. Both books have their edges in different places.


LKHero- thats an edge the Space Wolves have that they pay for in other ways (like not having a sergeant built into the cost of the squad). BA assault squads cost the same as standard marine ones.

Vaden
17-03-2010, 02:15
You're 1 point over. This is what makes Grey Hunters vastly superior than BA troops. My fully equipped Grey Hunter squad completely trumps the BA squad in terms of flexibility and what it can do in battle with counter-attack, a Rhino transport, wolf standard, mark of the wolfen, cbM and Meltagun.

Oh, my bad. But still, my point remains, that Blood Angels are not the end times like some make them out to be. They still die like marines. SS/TH termies will probably wreck a unit of DC, and the DC will still cost more...

Think of them as a mostly CC focused Marine army that plays like Eldar. Elite, fast vehicles, etc.

LKHERO
17-03-2010, 02:28
LKHero- thats an edge the Space Wolves have that they pay for in other ways (like not having a sergeant built into the cost of the squad). BA assault squads cost the same as standard marine ones.

It's actually an advantage.. because you can choose to go specialized anti-tank Grey Hunters with 10 strong and 2x Meltaguns for an extremely cheap price, or go with a more balanced approach like I took above.

Not to mention they can be customized literally a hundred different ways and can fulfill the role of anything ranging from squad sergeants, termicide, or the backbone of a Wolf Guard Terminator assault force. Hell, you can even take them as troops if you have Logan.

Blood Angels got nothing on Space Wolves in terms of list flexibility or power. I play both armies, I know ^^

MEPHISTONSRAGE
17-03-2010, 02:35
This list is a good list. But its so painful to buy an army since you can't have all of the elite goodness that this army has. Its just like the Space Wolves. Lots of good new choices, but at the end of the day, you opt for the tried and true. There are 9 elite choices, and 5 troops.
Ancient chinese proverb, "Choice is Agony".
I will be running a minimum of 3 assault and 10 Death Company, and a Sanguinary Guard squad.
After that, its Dante or Mephiston, Most likely Mephiston.

The points bear things out. Alot of fast vehicles is nice, particularly if you have a very able IG player who uses alot of armor. You now have parity.
The same fast vehicles, if used in large numbers, will not necessarily do well against
larger numbers of troops. 8-9 vehicle mounted lascannons will miss 2-3 and maybe not wound 1-2 (on a bad day) 3, and even if they have a good round 4-5 dead troops a turn is not game changing.

The only sort of odd thing to me is the HUGE number of dread availibility. And even with that... EVEN if you take 11 dreads, even at the minimum of points they cost, you got
over 1k of points tied up in them. However, Magna Grapples, and Librarians with Wings and Blood Lance.... WOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOO!!! That could be to much fun.
But again, some C:SM with meltas and lascannons can drop them easy enough, though 11 may take a couple of turns. :P
I don't find it to be all that over-powering, just a different method of warfare that people will have to learn to adjust to and fight.

MadHatter
17-03-2010, 02:37
i find it funny how many people will jump on a new codex band wagon. But what I have personally seen is this. they jump ship to the new army find they do not like this or that. and return to the one that appealed to them in the first place.

The Custodian
17-03-2010, 02:38
Im tempted... Really tempted... However im having a hard time to justify the red thirst in a Pre Heresy 1k sons army (Warp Rage??? Loss of concentration on the enumerations?). Also since its a drop pod army I wouldnt be using much of the new stuff anyway...

However these are thr reasons for wanting to use the book

Librarian Dreads: Ooooooooo gawd!
?SUperior? psychic abilities over codex marines: Debatable, however it appears to be that way
Useable Vangaurd:Major plus for me, ive always loved vangaurd but hated the cost... Now they are about 20pts a pop with Heroic intervention and Packs rolled in? YES PLEASE!

The temptation is strong.... Must.................. resist............

TheWarSmith
17-03-2010, 02:40
BA can theoretically spam 9 dreads. 10 dreads if you take a Chaplain dreadnought, which would be extremely characterful for the BA.

Voss
17-03-2010, 02:41
It's actually an advantage.. because you can choose to go specialized anti-tank Grey Hunters with 10 strong and 2x Meltaguns for an extremely cheap price, or go with a more balanced approach like I took above.

Not to mention they can be customized literally a hundred different ways and can fulfill the role of anything ranging from squad sergeants, termicide, or the backbone of a Wolf Guard Terminator assault force. Hell, you can even take them as troops if you have Logan.

Blood Angels got nothing on Space Wolves in terms of list flexibility or power. I play both armies, I know ^^

I did refer to it as an edge, you know. :) I was just pointing out that it isn't necessarily free.

<Shrug>. It depends on your playstyle. I played Wolves for years, but gave up with the new codex. I found it frustrating and inflexible, and the background a horrible abomination, what with the Wolves attacking the Imperium at random moments of wine and whimsy. The army I wanted to build wasn't there, and there were far too many 'this is clearly a good choice' units competing with 'this is clearly a bad choice' units.

But as long as other people like it, I guess its fine. I survived the transition and still have lots of close combat weapon arms glued on standard marine torsos. :)


Custodian- Vanguard still have to pay extra for jump packs. Their initial cost is slightly lower, and the get DoA and can buy the shiny new pistols, but they are otherwise identical.

Tourniquet
17-03-2010, 02:42
Oh, my bad. But still, my point remains, that Blood Angels are not the end times like some make them out to be. They still die like marines. SS/TH termies will probably wreck a unit of DC, and the DC will still cost more...

Think of them as a mostly CC focused Marine army that plays like Eldar. Elite, fast vehicles, etc.

Who said you have to take Death Company?

Myself I am looking at making a small list based around the speed
Assault Squads in Rhino's with priests
Some Triple Flamer Baal's

I need the book in hand though to see how i can deal with AV though.

All in all the BA will play like any other army
people who think about their choices will make competitive lists
People who Spam the new shiny ooo stuff will lose horribly, quit the army and go to the next flavour of the month

LKHERO
17-03-2010, 02:43
10 dreads if you take a Chaplain dreadnought, which would be extremely characterful for the BA.

Librarian*

There is no Chaplain Dread. I would assume they're saving it for BT or DA :D

MadHatter
17-03-2010, 02:48
BA can theoretically spam 9 dreads. 10 dreads if you take a Chaplain dreadnought, which would be extremely characterful for the BA.

I want to play against this list.

Project2501
17-03-2010, 03:05
To be honest, yes, the new BA codex is a great marketing gimmick, but, ultimately, as has been said, I'd still use SW dex over it.

If they were to ever go back and lower the points on reg SM tac squads (wishful thinking and all especially now that there's NO reason to have them cost so much since they get -nothing- special) I'd probably even go back to vanilla SM.

The only thing the BA codex has that even slightly peaks my interest is a dread that can get FC and bloodtalons. But even that pales to a TL las/TL auto dread w/wolf tail IMO.

All in all, looks like I'm going to keep playing guard, waiting for Grey Knights, and possibly dabble in orks again till then.

LKHERO
17-03-2010, 03:14
waiting for Grey Knights

Me too. My first army.

TheWarSmith
17-03-2010, 03:18
Librarian*

There is no Chaplain Dread. I would assume they're saving it for BT or DA :D

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/chap.pdf

But I was wrong in thinking he was an HQ choice. It's a FW model w/ optional rules, yes. Arguably not that great either as it doesn't have the WS/BS 5 like normal venerables do. But it'd be a very very characterful choice for BA, as they have tons of chaplains.

So the max dreads is 9. The Librarian dread is just a furioso upgrade(elite)

The Custodian
17-03-2010, 03:36
9?

3 Elites, 5 troops, what else?

duffybear1988
17-03-2010, 03:48
im sticking with space wolves over blood angels anyday - mostly because I hate the way GW has taken them, and also because I just revamped my space wolves army and dont fancy painting another marine force.

Lord-Caerolion
17-03-2010, 04:29
9?

3 Elites, 5 troops, what else?

And then standard Dreads are HS, so you can have a max of 11 in one army.

Creeping Dementia
17-03-2010, 04:29
I'm not sure yet if many C:SM players will be switching over to the BA dex, but I imagine things will settle in 3-4 months.

What really bothers me is the number of Marine players that switch codexes purely based on the strength of the Dex. Cherry picking which codex to use seems wrong, none of the other armies has 5 different codexes to choose from, yet Marines get to all the time.

For example, I played in a tournament a couple weeks ago (the report is in the Battle Report section if you want to see it), and all three games were against Marines.
My first game was against a player that loves Dark Angels, and considers his Marines to be Dark Angels (with DA models), but he was using C:SM because its a better Dex.
Second game was against a Vulkan list, and he was actually playing C:SM for C:SM.
Third game was against another Marine list that had Vulkan, but he's a big Blood Angels guy. He was using Wolves a couple months ago, now hes C:SM, soon will be an actual BA player again.

Sure, if my Tau had several different army lists to choose from, or if there were a couple different Sisters army lists, I'd probably pick the better one too, but there aren't.

Just seems a bit messed up is all.

MadHatter
17-03-2010, 04:41
I'm not sure yet if many C:SM players will be switching over to the BA dex, but I imagine things will settle in 3-4 months.

What really bothers me is the number of Marine players that switch codexes purely based on the strength of the Dex. Cherry picking which codex to use seems wrong, none of the other armies has 5 different codexes to choose from, yet Marines get to all the time.

For example, I played in a tournament a couple weeks ago (the report is in the Battle Report section if you want to see it), and all three games were against Marines.
My first game was against a player that loves Dark Angels, and considers his Marines to be Dark Angels (with DA models), but he was using C:SM because its a better Dex.
Second game was against a Vulkan list, and he was actually playing C:SM for C:SM.
Third game was against another Marine list that had Vulkan, but he's a big Blood Angels guy. He was using Wolves a couple months ago, now hes C:SM, soon will be an actual BA player again.

Sure, if my Tau had several different army lists to choose from, or if there were a couple different Sisters army lists, I'd probably pick the better one too, but there aren't.

Just seems a bit messed up is all.

Marines are the best selling product. They are great for the beginner they are fun for the experienced player. And they are the elite champions of terra. So they get all the great press.
If everyone switched to tau then tau would get that type of attention, because that would be where thier money is.

CKO
17-03-2010, 04:42
Creeping Dementia I know what you mean it does seem that way I have a friend that does it but what can I say its his mini's. While it doesnt seem right these are the players that GW profit the most off of, they release a new marine codex they buy the codex and then they buy 2-3 new things sometimes alot more. Lets face it each marine codex is basically a new begaining for marine players and I see nothing wrong with people wanting to play with the new rules, because thats basically what it is.

Creeping Dementia
17-03-2010, 04:47
I totally understand the reasons behind it, both the financial and powerlisting reasons. Just making a simple observation.

CKO
17-03-2010, 04:49
Blood Angels will be my first marine army, lets see if I can handle the temptation when Black Templar or Dark Angels come out.

Project2501
17-03-2010, 04:55
GL with holding out on Black Templars if you're going to delve into BA.

DA don't really have anything left at this point it looks like? I mean all they got now is ravenwing.

TheWarSmith
17-03-2010, 04:56
And then standard Dreads are HS, so you can have a max of 11 in one army.

Wow, my bad. I was only counting 3 in the troops section, thinking that each section of 5 DC were 1 troops choice, but yeah, they're only 1 troop.

So make that 11 baby!! Damn, I wonder how hard of an army that would be to deal w/. Drop podding the furiosos, arming the HS dreads w/ dual heavy weapons, and letting the DC dreads sprint across the battlefield.

Too bad you'd have zero scoring units, hehe.

Netfreakk
17-03-2010, 05:02
GL with holding out on Black Templars if you're going to delve into BA.

DA don't really have anything left at this point it looks like? I mean all they got now is ravenwing.

and even then it's not special, I mean C:SM has to just take a captain on a bike and BAM! they have an all bike army that's cheaper get to put the Attack bike and 7/8 other bikers with them, but loses scout and tele becons though. zzzz

Project2501
17-03-2010, 05:13
and even then it's not special, I mean C:SM has to just take a captain on a bike and BAM! they have an all bike army that's cheaper get to put the Attack bike and 7/8 other bikers with them, but loses scout and tele becons though. zzzz


I was thinking more along the lines of an all speeder army, since I traditionally equate all bikes with white scars.

Really though, that's about it. I mean even BTs have DC+chaplain taking on their turf.

Griffindale
17-03-2010, 06:45
Shouldn't Blood Angels be over space marines? I mean we do have a lot of jump packs.. :D

Seriously guys, it'll be ok. The Ultramarine codex will still be played. People left C: SM for the wolves when they came out. Some went back, some stayed. Its not that big of a deal. Suck it up.

GrogDaTyrant
17-03-2010, 07:05
Marines are Marines are Marines...

When you're not playing an MEQ army, they all tend to just blur together. Some deep-strike. Some outflank. Some of them run around like Cavalry, with giant S5 T5 wolves riding on their backs. In the end, the differences between one marine army and another are fairly minimal. And I've yet to see a marine variant that has forced me to completely re-think my strategies against them.

bossfearless
17-03-2010, 07:11
I'm planning on going with a middle of the road approach to this new dex. Rather than "jumping ship" I am simply picking up a couple of units and converting existing ones to make a Blood Angels "expansion pack" for my normal SM army. After all, there are some things SM can do that BA can't, and vice versa. For instance, when I first began SM I started collecting lots of different dreads to run with a master of the forge, but I found that to not be my favorite style of play since it was all rather boring. The new BA dex lets me take the same dreads and field them in unique ways that are as unpredictable as they are effective :)

starlight
17-03-2010, 07:51
I always find it funny when people talk about jumping ships and bandwagons... :p

Having the ability to run multiple Marine companies at the same time, for me it's just a question of which book/army to choose, so why would it occur to me to question my opponent switching books between games...? Run what's fun. :)








Although I'll be using the new Blood Angel rules for my Night Lords descendants in the Legio Phoenix Templars...just like I used the BA PDF for them before... :shifty:

Corrode
17-03-2010, 12:21
I'm not sure what's upsetting people so much about this 'OMG BA GET DISCOUNT TRANSPORTS FOR ASSAULT SQUADS!!!' thing. Regular SM Assault Squads already do this; if they lose the packs you get the transport free. The only reason BA get the discount instead is because a) their transports are more expensive and b) because they can take dedicated Land Raiders, which I'm pretty sure people wouldn't want handed out for free.

Besides which, it's not 'free' or 'OMG 20PTS!!!'. You've already paid the points as part of the cost of the squad.

As for switching, well, I have a Fists army and I'm starting up Blood Angels. I started because BA are super-cool and more to the point they were my first army so it was a bit of a nostalgia kick. Whether the Codex was going to be any good or not had no bearing on my choice since at the time I picked them we were still stuck with the fake Codex as our only source of 'information'. I won't be dropping my Crimson Fists (in fact I can't seem to stop painting the buggers!), and the BA are likely to end up being a second-string 'fun' army.

Znail
17-03-2010, 12:52
GL with holding out on Black Templars if you're going to delve into BA.

DA don't really have anything left at this point it looks like? I mean all they got now is ravenwing.

DA is in alot better shape then BA was before this codex, so there is no reason to asume that the next DA codex would put DA in a worse spot then the new BA codex.

SanguinaryDan
17-03-2010, 13:27
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/chap.pdf

But I was wrong in thinking he was an HQ choice. It's a FW model w/ optional rules, yes. Arguably not that great either as it doesn't have the WS/BS 5 like normal venerables do. But it'd be a very very characterful choice for BA, as they have tons of chaplains.

So the max dreads is 9. The Librarian dread is just a furioso upgrade(elite)

Not available to BA though.:( In IA: Apocalypse II they have the "real" entry for the Chaplain Dreadnought and Blood Angels are not eligible to get one. Mostly because it's got the Venerable rule I suppose. But it is a way for non-BA armies to get a 2 DCCW Dreadnought.

Hellgore
17-03-2010, 13:47
Playing Ultramarines for 10 years now. They were standard, non-über in 3rd, where BA and SW stomped as THE cc-armies over everything in their way (rhinorush anyone?) and I almost hated Blood Angels in 4th for their broken codex (cheap PW Scout Searges for the Death Company; Assault Cannon Spam). But I stayed blue and even tolerated all the a-holes that constantly insult UM-Players since 5th ed. Codex arrived. Still the "smurfs" remain standard, non-über as they are supposed to be. And it makes me proud that I remain steadfast and still beat TWC-Wolves with these "average" marines. In the end it comes down to skills. If you can't win with normal marines, you won't win with switching to Blood Angels or Space Wolves.

Wicksy
17-03-2010, 14:28
Speaking of Blood Angels, I'm thinking of starting a SM army, and I might as well go with the new hotness.

MY question is: Where should I start? Would the Black Reach stuff work okay? Then kind of build from there? I'm thinking of doing something like 800-1000 points.

Maybe add in some Scouts and a Rhino or something.

Only real experience I have with 40K is Necrons. And then only barely.

Thanks!

Black reach would work. It'll however give you stuff you may not immediately want to field in a BA army.

I picked up a SM battle force then purchased 4 assault marine boxsets over a period of months...a dread and command squad in a sale. That gives me three basic troop choices plus enough stuff including my bitsbox to convert up a HQ and few vehicles. I'll pick up some death company to add to the old 2nd ed models i already have and of course the upgrade sprues and sanguninary guard later on.

I'd start with a battleforce and a assault squad box. Grab it from Wayland games or some such and that should give you enough stuff to get a 1000 points together (you may need a Black Reach dread to boost the points...Ebay is your friend there ;) )

Wicksy
17-03-2010, 14:31
Playing Ultramarines for 10 years now. They were standard, non-über in 3rd, where BA and SW stomped as THE cc-armies over everything in their way (rhinorush anyone?) and I almost hated Blood Angels in 4th for their broken codex (cheap PW Scout Searges for the Death Company; Assault Cannon Spam). But I stayed blue and even tolerated all the a-holes that constantly insult UM-Players since 5th ed. Codex arrived. Still the "smurfs" remain standard, non-über as they are supposed to be. And it makes me proud that I remain steadfast and still beat TWC-Wolves with these "average" marines. In the end it comes down to skills. If you can't win with normal marines, you won't win with switching to Blood Angels or Space Wolves.

Thats true....i've played against the new SW codex about 6 times now and lost once, drawn twice and won three times using 5th ed SM rules. I'm getting the BA codex but i shan't be getting rid of the SM one. I may decide i fancy fielding red marines instead of blood angels sometimes...

jt.glass
17-03-2010, 15:01
Having the ability to run multiple Marine companies at the same time, for me it's just a question of which book/army to choose, so why would it occur to me to question my opponent switching books between games...? Run what's fun. :)Exactly, my homebrew chapter has always had a specialist assault company, which the BA dex should fit perfectly. Just like I use SW (just Wolfguard really) for the 1st co veterans. Doesn't mean I don't use C:SM for the normal stuff.


jt.

Kelderaith
17-03-2010, 18:05
To answer the OP question, I can assure you quite a few people will change army. In my club, the only 3 constant space marines players will all change to BA, the other one is BT (which is his 3rd army so he doesn't really play them often) and the other is SW. I find it a sad state really, I have nothing against people getting excited for a new release, seeing this as a good opportunity to start up an army they've always wanted to play, but when 3 existing codex marines all decide to switch to blood angels because "they've always liked them" it just sounds wrong. We already had a blood angel player too, so now we'll have 3-4 blood angel players in our 8-10 gaming group, yay for diversity...:shifty:

williamhm
17-03-2010, 19:47
Regular space marines don't appeal to me at all the flavour of the Blood angels does. There's something about those noble but homicidal maniacs that I find compelling. Especially after reading some of the Horrace Heressey novels where even Horace respects Saginarous above any of the other primarchs.

starlight
17-03-2010, 19:58
Which has *nothing* to do with which ruleset you use to play the game. As GW has said more times than I care to count, you can take any set of rules and create your own background for them. There is nothing stopping anyone from using the Blood Angels background with any of the Marine lists (Black Templars especially, but also Space Wolves)...or any other list that represented the models well enough...

...and Black Library fiction is so contradictory (both internally and with other GW material) that it's a pretty poor basis for an army background... :(


Do what you want, but don't try using GW's background material as a basis, because there is likely as much supporting your theme as contradicting it... Heck, the Ultramarine's Chief Librarian is half-Eldar in the old background... :eek:

Loki73
17-03-2010, 20:03
Marine players will return back to their codex after they have played a few games.

I wont my Space Wolves at least for me are wayyy more fun than the SM codex. Only thing I miss are scout bikes and the Ironclad.

However I will be doing a Jump pack army at 1750 for funsies.