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wazatdingder
19-03-2010, 23:01
I finally got a look at the new BA codex and it seems ok, this is not a OMG FREAKOUT :eek: post.

I was a little concerned about the amount of FNP available. I like the direction the hobby has been going with the last couple of books. My concern is that things might go overboard a bit forcing GW to pull back on the reigns too much. Until now, it seemed that every army had it's share of FNP, but not too much.

What is your opinion? Should we see more or less of it.

Corrode
19-03-2010, 23:10
Some kind of indication of what you think is 'too much' FNP would be nice - I'm guessing from Sanguinary Priests, but I'm not sure.

That said, I think it's fine. What kills Marines is either weight of fire (against which the Blood Angels are marginally safer) or AP1/2 spam (against which FNP is ineffective). It's actually quite characterful; the BA are that little bit crazy, but they're still going to get obliterated by the things that should really hurt them. The only sticking point might be things like the battle cannon, which is only AP3 (and as such doesn't ignore FNP) but should probably still be blowing Marines into bloody chunks regardless of how much the Grail makes them crazy.

Seconds after posting I remembered that battle cannons cause instant death, which ignores FNP as well. Problem solved.

wazatdingder
19-03-2010, 23:16
Some kind of indication of what you think is 'too much' FNP would be nice - I'm guessing from Sanguinary Priests, but I'm not sure.

Yes, thats the main supplier.



That said, I think it's fine. What kills Marines is either weight of fire (against which the Blood Angels are marginally safer) or AP1/2 spam (against which FNP is ineffective). It's actually quite characterful; the BA are that little bit crazy, but they're still going to get obliterated by the things that should really hurt them. The only sticking point might be things like the battle cannon, which is only AP3 (and as such doesn't ignore FNP) but should probably still be blowing Marines into bloody chunks regardless of how much the Grail makes them crazy.

Seconds after posting I remembered that battle cannons cause instant death, which ignores FNP as well. Problem solved.

I'm not concerned with killing them, I'm actually concerned with them not giving it to units in other armies that deserve it due to over exposure in a marine dex.

MadCowCrazy
20-03-2010, 00:03
For my Sisters of Battle I hope Sister Repentia, Arco-Flagellants and if Penitent Engines turns into MC I hope they all get FnP.
The fluff says Repentia charge into battle not caring for much of anything except the death of their enemies in an attempt to regain their honour.
Arco-Flagellants say they are incapable of feeling fear or pain so it makes sense there.
For Penitent Engines the entire thing needs a reworking, Id change it to a MC with a 5+save and FnP but thats just me.

Bestaltan
20-03-2010, 00:26
FNP doesn't work against anything double your toughness. Battle cannons still instantly turn BA's to paste.

Lord Malorne
20-03-2010, 00:28
Not enough FNP.

sabre4190
20-03-2010, 00:31
This is warhammer. There should be a hell of alot more pain flying around.

Thud
20-03-2010, 00:48
I suppose that's why they call them universal special rules.

burning crome
20-03-2010, 01:06
Sanguinary Priests is a bit of a doable edged sword when you really have a close look at them. First off they take a valuable elite slot ( not to much of a problem since stuff has moved to FA). The second is that like the chaos marks if they get taken out you loss that FNP that you where relying on. So any thing with pick target sniper ability will be very deadly since they have normal states and one wound. Currently just telson and vindicator assassins have this but that special rule in the SW codex hints that being able to picking you targets may become more common (dark eldar possibly). Also i have'nt been able to read the codex in person but their sure to give away a kill point if the unit (only of three max) is killed.
Their still cheap and very much worth their points form what i can see.
As to to much well it fits with the fluff quite well and while you could spam them your army composition would suffer.

Archangel_Ruined
20-03-2010, 01:18
The priests will be very dependant on what unit they're joining. Tagged onto some terminators then you have an incredibly pesky and resiliant unit, stuck on a tac squad and it's not such an issue. I much prefer the idea of characters or special models granting FNP to units they join than a general increase in standard FNP squads.

Tourniquet
20-03-2010, 02:29
Sanguinary Priests is a bit of a doable edged sword when you really have a close look at them. First off they take a valuable elite slot ( not to much of a problem since stuff has moved to FA). The second is that like the chaos marks if they get taken out you loss that FNP that you where relying on. So any thing with pick target sniper ability will be very deadly since they have normal states and one wound. Currently just telson and vindicator assassins have this but that special rule in the SW codex hints that being able to picking you targets may become more common (dark eldar possibly). Also i have'nt been able to read the codex in person but their sure to give away a kill point if the unit (only of three max) is killed.
Their still cheap and very much worth their points form what i can see.
As to to much well it fits with the fluff quite well and while you could spam them your army composition would suffer.

Mind War
Blood Boil under a roll of 5

are 2 more

Paul Nexus
20-03-2010, 02:36
So any thing with pick target sniper ability will be very deadly since they have normal states and one wound. Currently just telson and vindicator assassins have this but that special rule in the SW codex hints that being able to picking you targets may become more common (dark eldar possibly)

Mind war... What is the Ld of a Sanguinary Priest?

Tourniquet
20-03-2010, 02:40
Mind war... What is the Ld of a Sanguinary Priest?

I think i read some where it's8. possibly 9?
Not sure haven't seen dex. but i doubt its the same as a farseer

Archangel_Ruined
20-03-2010, 02:46
It has to be at least 9, they're elite marines. They're cheaper than a farseer though, so much of this musing is pitting them against much more expensive specialist HQ killers.

wazatdingder
20-03-2010, 02:53
This is warhammer. There should be a hell of alot more pain flying around.

Actually, this is 40k.:evilgrin:

Znail
20-03-2010, 04:58
BA is the origin of both the Furious Charge and Feeel No Pain USR's, so claiming that the BA codex devalues those rules is like saying that giving Nids alot of Rending devaules that rule.

shabbadoo
20-03-2010, 05:36
An Ork army can contain up to 5 units with FNP(3 Elites Nobs, 2 Troops Nobz; all with Painboyz), and they can all be bike-mounted(i.e Toughness 4(5) as well).

And you though BA were bad. ;)

In all honesty, special rules like FNP are fine, just so long as you pay for them, and you surely do. it is up to the players to use them to the best affect, and for their opponents to lessen their effect as much as is possible. The more goodies your opponent's army has, the less models they will also have. One of the Space Marine chapters(Iron Snakes I think) have apothecaries in every Tactical squad. Granted, you cannot build such a force using Codex: Space Marines, but I wouldn't be against it, as the added cost would drive down the number of models that one would face. Most armies usually contain enough AP 1-2 weapons, 2x Toughness weapons, and power weapons/fists to offset the cost, and if they don't they will have numbers to counteract it.

I can't recall if a Sanguinary Pries is an Independent Character, but if so he can be picked out in close combat and removed, thereby removing FNP too. This cannot be done with a Painboy, as he is a unit upgrade and not an IC.

Epicenter
20-03-2010, 05:45
Feel No Pain are one of the USRs that seems to be getting a very high profile in 5th edition. It seems that a common way to "buff" elite units when they're being redone is to give them FNP. And if you think too many units have FNP, look at how many units are getting Furious Charge. FC is the new black in 40k USRs.

I think FNP is some strange symptom of designers feeling chafed by the lack of range using the d6 in 40k, the general increase in firepower, and the AP system.

My suspicion is that FNP is going to get even more ridiculous in 6th edition, with it being split up like Poisoned weapons, so we're going to see "FNP 4+" or "FNP 5+" and so on.

Znail
20-03-2010, 06:09
Feel No Pain are one of the USRs that seems to be getting a very high profile in 5th edition. It seems that a common way to "buff" elite units when they're being redone is to give them FNP. And if you think too many units have FNP, look at how many units are getting Furious Charge. FC is the new black in 40k USRs.

I think FNP is some strange symptom of designers feeling chafed by the lack of range using the d6 in 40k, the general increase in firepower, and the AP system.

My suspicion is that FNP is going to get even more ridiculous in 6th edition, with it being split up like Poisoned weapons, so we're going to see "FNP 4+" or "FNP 5+" and so on.

Too late. BA already got 2+ FNP and Chaos Daemons has 3+ FNP...

TheWarSmith
20-03-2010, 06:31
BA is the origin of both the Furious Charge and Feeel No Pain USR's, so claiming that the BA codex devalues those rules is like saying that giving Nids alot of Rending devaules that rule.

I'm pretty sure that the last chaos codex before the current one is what introduced FNP and FC. FC was a veteran ability that could be purchased for certain units/etc., and FNP was something that khornate models got(ironically not nurgle).

Mr Zoat
20-03-2010, 07:43
I still don't understand why models with armour and forcefields don't get to make both saves but models with armour and FNP do.

Znail
20-03-2010, 07:53
I'm pretty sure that the last chaos codex before the current one is what introduced FNP and FC. FC was a veteran ability that could be purchased for certain units/etc., and FNP was something that khornate models got(ironically not nurgle).

But that is from when they were made into USR. The original Death Company rules in WD had what amounts to FNP (even so far as they had it due to feeling no pain), this was before the 2nd edition Angels of Death codex. Also 3rd edition Blood Angels had a special rule that worked like Furious Charge does now. Most of the USR origninates as special rules in a specific codex.


I still don't understand why models with armour and forcefields don't get to make both saves but models with armour and FNP do.

It used to work that way and it made characters able to take on armies. FNP is a bit diffrent as its counterable by several things, so not quite as game breaking.

marv335
20-03-2010, 07:57
An Ork army can contain up to 5 units with FNP(3 Elites Nobs, 2 Troops Nobz; all with Painboyz), and they can all be bike-mounted(i.e Toughness 4(5) as well).

8 Actually, you forgot flashgits, who also can take a painboy.
:D

Tethylis
20-03-2010, 08:10
An Ork army can contain up to 5 units with FNP(3 Elites Nobs, 2 Troops Nobz; all with Painboyz), and they can all be bike-mounted(i.e Toughness 4(5) as well).


8 Actually, you forgot flashgits, who also can take a painboy.
:D

Well it's 9 really if you decide to add in Mad Doc Grotsnik too. ;)

marv335
20-03-2010, 09:12
Well it's 9 really if you decide to add in Mad Doc Grotsnik too. ;)

Nope, MDG keeps it at 8, as you have to drop a unit of Nobs as you lose a warboss.

Bunnahabhain
20-03-2010, 10:24
A Guard army can have 8 units ( platoon and company command squads) with Feel no Pain too, but I don't believe I've ever heard that as a reason for them being over-powered....

taffeh
20-03-2010, 10:43
I feel no pain!

Couldnt resist. However, on a serious side I would hope to see in any kind of modern / future warfair medics running around patching people up and FNP I feel represents this well. Especially in a footslogging human army... maybe not so much in a Astartes incursion...

Fight for the Imperium! We don't bandage you up!

ehlijen
20-03-2010, 10:51
A Guard army can have 8 units ( platoon and company command squads) with Feel no Pain too, but I don't believe I've ever heard that as a reason for them being over-powered....

FnP becomes significantly more valuable on T4 as opposed to T3. There are quite a few S6+ weapons and only the heaviest are S8+.

Don't forget that to get those 8 FnP units, you must also take 12 non-FnP units at the very least.

Sparowl
20-03-2010, 11:45
This is warhammer. There should be a hell of a lot more pain flying around.

Not only was that awesome and funny, but I'm now making it my signature in honor of it.

Gargskull
20-03-2010, 13:01
FNP doesn't work against anything double your toughness.

As I've found out time and time again, I hardly ever bother taking a painboy with my nobz as all my opponents always blast the nobz away with the highest strength/lowest ap guns they have.

Last time I played against eldar their trukk was blown up on turn 1 and the nobz were all obliterated into nothing by turn 3.

So fnp's not that much of a problem really, as long as you have the right tools for the job. ;)

Archangel_Ruined
20-03-2010, 14:10
That's why painboyz in biker nobz squads are just plain nasty, you'll always have a save against shooting attacks, fnp against most things and by the time you hit combat you've pretty much won already. FNP is much less of a problem on guard units though, there are enough S6+ AP4 weapons around that ignore any chance of a save, whilst the price of the upgrade matters more to a numbers driven army. FNP isn't too bad as it stands, I may revise this opinion if all necrons end up as T5 with FNP. Then I may be quite annoyed...