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SandQueen
20-03-2010, 03:34
So I've been considering starting a marine army in addition to my Eldar. Not out of dislike for my current army but to fulfill a need at my LGS. Mainly I want to have an Imperial Force on hand in case of team games/Apocalypse when the Imperial side needs some back up.

So I've been looking at marines. They allow alot of options and I like some of the models. My only issue though is whether or not I want to put a spin on things.

Space Wolves are a little too butch
Dark Angels arent up to speed
Black Templars are too black (dont like their paint scheme)
Blood Angels just look obscene and I prefer red on my nails and not on my models.

So I've been looking through some books and looking online and found some things that I like. The only issue though is that they arent exactly new.

I've tracked down the rules for some of the "Cursed Founding" chapters (Legion of the Damned, Black Dragons, Fire Hawks) and they seem fairly interesting. On the flip side we have the Relictors which have some slick options of their own and some interesting restrictions.

But now comes the big question. Would you, as an opponent, allow someone to use these rules despite their age and the current state of rules and codecies?

To be specific I like the Sons of Antaeus rules (+1 Toughness) and Relictors. Not sure on which one but the big clencher is whether this idea sits well with the community.

Bestaltan
20-03-2010, 03:36
Why not just pick a codex you like and paint a scheme you like? Nothing that says that a Space Wolf list MUST be painted like space wolves, or Templars LIKE Templars.

But as far as older rule sets go.....For fun games, or especially in a campaign style setting, that would be actually kind of fun.

Madgear Thundaklutch
20-03-2010, 03:36
Out of the 6 Marine codexes out there (yes I included CSM) you can represent any chapter you want, within reason.

That being said, if you want to take older rules, I would have no issue, but Im only one person, nor do I know how bad/good the old rules will fair for you.

trigger
20-03-2010, 03:38
TBH , it would all depend on the points cost , if your still only paying the same points as me and get all im getting plus +1T then no ... but if its pointed right then yea id play ya for the heck of it.

If your only useing it for fun in Apoc games at your club then i cant see there being an issue.

SandQueen
20-03-2010, 03:53
TBH , it would all depend on the points cost , if your still only paying the same points as me and get all im getting plus +1T then no ... but if its pointed right then yea id play ya for the heck of it.

If your only useing it for fun in Apoc games at your club then i cant see there being an issue.

I beleive the cost for toughness is 5-10 points per model, increasing for characters

trigger
20-03-2010, 04:01
In that case bud , i would def have no prob , would it just work out a simular price to csm nurgle army ?

Reggen
20-03-2010, 04:03
I think you would have to ask your lgc, and see if they care. I myself would not have a problem with older codices unless of course there are new rules for the oen you want to use, ie, old SW codex instead of the new one, old BA instead of the new one (when it comes out). Other then that, give me rules before hand so I know whats what and I would enjoy seeing something new (my lgs and house games are 99% marines)

SandQueen
20-03-2010, 04:18
In that case bud , i would def have no prob , would it just work out a simular price to csm nurgle army ?

Pretty much. The army is basically normal marines with the Mark of Nurgle. Nothing else.


I think you would have to ask your lgc, and see if they care. I myself would not have a problem with older codices unless of course there are new rules for the oen you want to use, ie, old SW codex instead of the new one, old BA instead of the new one (when it comes out). Other then that, give me rules before hand so I know whats what and I would enjoy seeing something new (my lgs and house games are 99% marines)

My LGS doesnt care what you do on their tables as long as you clean up where you're done.

ehlijen
20-03-2010, 09:28
Is there a reason you left the Codex marines out of you list up?

If I remember correctly, the relictors were just codex marines with a few things made 0-1 (this isn't a problem, just choose to obey that 'rule') and the option to give one character a random chaos item, right?

The chaos item wouldn't really work, but you can just use a chaos sword model and call it a relic blade, can't you?

As for the cursed founding, you'd probably run into far more problems. Those rules were written for the 3rd ed codex, if I remember right. I don't know what else they said so I don't know how problematic they are, but it could be very.

SandQueen
20-03-2010, 12:21
Is there a reason you left the Codex marines out of you list up?

If I remember correctly, the relictors were just codex marines with a few things made 0-1 (this isn't a problem, just choose to obey that 'rule') and the option to give one character a random chaos item, right?

The chaos item wouldn't really work, but you can just use a chaos sword model and call it a relic blade, can't you?

As for the cursed founding, you'd probably run into far more problems. Those rules were written for the 3rd ed codex, if I remember right. I don't know what else they said so I don't know how problematic they are, but it could be very.

As mentioned before, the Sons of Antaeus rules are pretty simple and nothing more than the mark of nurgle really. They can be applied to pretty much any marine. There are some FOC requirements that reflect the limited resources (limits on tanks, terminators, and no scouts mainly).

The Relictors could pay points and roll for a random chaos weapon. They also had access to 12 other wargear options ranging from an item that boosted one model's initiative to something that pinned all models within three inches once per game. There were no FOC issues other than not being able to take Witch Hunter or Grey Knight allies.

Reggen
20-03-2010, 13:46
I truely believe that in a non tourney environment, 40K is a game to have fun with, you've said that the people you play with won't care, so go for whatever you want to do. You will find yourself limited by some of the rules that do not carry over well, but just figure out how to make them work for your group. If you ever end up in northern wisconsin I will play anything as long as I see the rules beforehand, (though it sucks up here, to cold for any living being).

Decius
20-03-2010, 17:47
I'd play a game with you because you seem like an all right guy (or girl since you mentioned red finger nails. Or not?). Honestly though, I'd prefer it if you used the rules of a current marine codex, painted in whatever colours you like. Use this as an opportunity to make your own chapter using the rules you like.

But, if your friends are okay with it, why does my opinion matter? :p

Zurken
20-03-2010, 20:53
As long it's not in a tournament setting I would play it ;)

ehlijen
21-03-2010, 01:09
Why not play a tame chaos list then, but use Loyalist models?

Lords = captains with deamon weapons
Chosen = veterans
marines = marines
raptors = assault marines
havocs = devestators

and the tanks are mostly the same as well.

That way you'd get your chaosy stuff, most marine things and still be tourny legal should that fancy ever strike you or you want o play a pick up game.

Just saying it's nice to have backup plan in case opponents consent ever becomes an issue. Models are too expensive not to I say.

Meriwether
21-03-2010, 01:17
I feel that it is, shall we say, presumptuous and rude to expect other people to play against something that is not a part of the rules simply because you don't like the rules as they are.

Making up house rules like magma or carnivorous plants or weather effects or whatever for a cool game? Sweet.

Using old army lists (that were updated for a _reason_)? Not cool.

That said, if you know the people well (they are your good amigos), and they're fine with it, then my opinion on the matter is very, very moot. Go have fun.

Bouncl
21-03-2010, 01:26
I feel that it is, shall we say, presumptuous and rude to expect other people to play against something that is not a part of the rules simply because you don't like the rules as they are.

I had assumed she was asking here to see if anyone would have issues with it. It seems like most people don't, so I don't see an issue. Besides, if they don't want too, she could just use the normal rules with a few bits of extra wargear thrown in to compensate for points. Not a huge deal, really.


That said, if it's an Apoc only force, it would be a simple matter of using CSM's (with MoN) in place of Tac Marines, and using everything else from the Marine Dex

Sorros
21-03-2010, 01:55
I would have no issues with it, unless it was broken with the 5th edition ruleset. Don't know about others.

Meriwether
21-03-2010, 02:13
I had assumed she was asking here to see if anyone would have issues with it.

My comment was meant to encompass much more than just this question. Anything ranging from "can I use outdated army lists" to "can I take mixed tau/eldar armies because of fluff/rules reason X" to whatever are all presumptuous if playing against strangers...

They're going to be inclined to say 'yes' to not seem like a jerk, even if they want to say 'no'.

So on behalf of all those non-jerks out there who want to say 'no' but will say 'yes', I'm saying NO THIS IS NOT OK unless you are playing amongst people you know very well.

The Marshel
21-03-2010, 09:19
tbh, i wouldn't be overly cool with it. Its not that i don't like the idea of people using old rules but more that this is marines we are talking about. the incredible degree of support and updates for genetically modified men in power armor is so immense that frankly, if you can't do it in present day 40k there is likely a good reason why you can't.

i think that if you can't achieve something enjoyable from the vanilla, wolf, blood angles, dark angels, templar and chaos codices, then the adaptus astartes and its traitorous branches simply aren't the army for you

Codsticker
21-03-2010, 16:01
As this isn't a thread regarding a specific rules question I am moving this to the General discussion.

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad

Dr.Clock
21-03-2010, 16:19
Not a huge deal to me...

If you have a small group of dedicated players who all know each other, ask THEM, and base your decision on that.

With respect to both of your stated ideas: I'd pick the one you like and then make lists that allow you to use EITHER the out-dated rules OR the existing rules closest to what you envision.

For instance, build a list that would abide by either the CSM codex with many marks of nurgle OR the SM codex with the Sons of Antaeus rules. That way, you can just say casually "this list can be played two ways... one is outdated but represents the chapter really well, the other is a CSM list which I'm not too keen on... which do you want me to use?".

Giving your opponent an option between two choices is better than saying "This is my list. Are you okay with it?" People don't want to shoot it down. If you make it clear from the get-go that you aren't trying to game people and respect the fact that your rules don't hold, they'll be more likely to allow it.

Also, make sure you also note what you've given up for the 'bonus'. People will feel better about playing T5 marines if they know that they aren't fully mechanized in advance.

Personally, I'd give it a shot. But, if it was clearly broken, I'd ask for further limitations in future games. If I feel that I did everything right, was moderately lucky, and that your list was carrying you further than it should, I'd ask for a specific fix. This would allow us to work together toward a list that was competitive but not overpowered.

One more thing: The BoLS has a Badab codex with some variant Space Marine chapters in it. All of them have Special Characters... some chapter tactics and extra special units that substitute in for specific units. For instance, exorcist sternguard gain the ability to take incinerators but lose heavy weapons and some other things... there's a master of the Forge for Sallies that gives them Vulkan's chapter tacitcs without having a crazy combat character that's outside the command structure (I really don't like Vulkan - I've been using Lysander for mt sallies). I'd give it a read to see what 'variant' rules might look like in 5th ed.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Znail
21-03-2010, 16:25
It seems to me rather strange to want to use old rules mostly it seems because of not liking the official colour schemes of the current codexes. Its so much less trouble to just use your own colours and wichever upto date codex you want as long as you stick with the correct wargear on your models. Personalised colour scheme is alot more socialy accepted then personalised rules to your liking.

SandQueen
22-03-2010, 03:29
Not a huge deal to me...

If you have a small group of dedicated players who all know each other, ask THEM, and base your decision on that.

With respect to both of your stated ideas: I'd pick the one you like and then make lists that allow you to use EITHER the out-dated rules OR the existing rules closest to what you envision.

For instance, build a list that would abide by either the CSM codex with many marks of nurgle OR the SM codex with the Sons of Antaeus rules. That way, you can just say casually "this list can be played two ways... one is outdated but represents the chapter really well, the other is a CSM list which I'm not too keen on... which do you want me to use?".

Giving your opponent an option between two choices is better than saying "This is my list. Are you okay with it?" People don't want to shoot it down. If you make it clear from the get-go that you aren't trying to game people and respect the fact that your rules don't hold, they'll be more likely to allow it.

Also, make sure you also note what you've given up for the 'bonus'. People will feel better about playing T5 marines if they know that they aren't fully mechanized in advance.

Personally, I'd give it a shot. But, if it was clearly broken, I'd ask for further limitations in future games. If I feel that I did everything right, was moderately lucky, and that your list was carrying you further than it should, I'd ask for a specific fix. This would allow us to work together toward a list that was competitive but not overpowered.

One more thing: The BoLS has a Badab codex with some variant Space Marine chapters in it. All of them have Special Characters... some chapter tactics and extra special units that substitute in for specific units. For instance, exorcist sternguard gain the ability to take incinerators but lose heavy weapons and some other things... there's a master of the Forge for Sallies that gives them Vulkan's chapter tacitcs without having a crazy combat character that's outside the command structure (I really don't like Vulkan - I've been using Lysander for mt sallies). I'd give it a read to see what 'variant' rules might look like in 5th ed.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

I just downloaded the Badab book and I'm purusing it now. I'll certainly look into the alternate lists thing, sounds like it would be smart.