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eyescrossed
20-03-2010, 08:15
No, I don't mean the game itself (even though it obviously is), but moreso the armies; how they play and what they bring to the table.

For example, Skaven.

Now, I didn't face them last edition, so tell me if I'm getting this wrong, but didn't they previously behave more as a swarm army that was pretty easy to panic if units weren't in range of a general?

Now sure, people still do swarm armies (my friend does - over 100 Slaves a lot of games), but I've seen them become a lot more of a Godzilla army with their Hellpit Abominations, Doomwheels, Screaming Bells (even though the last two aren't specifically monsters), etc.

Not only that, but I have found that it's a lot harder to panic Skaven than most other armies... Hell, my WoC have run more due to psychology than my friend's Skaven have.

They also have a lot of hard, elite units for a swarm of rats... Plague Censer Bearers and (to a lesser extent) Stormvermin?

Are the armies really changing, or am I just making a mountain out of a molehill?

Ultimate Life Form
20-03-2010, 08:20
Oh sure, Warhammer's changing all the time. Compare 6th Edition books to 7th Ed books and you'll see. You pretty much nailed it anyway.

However I won't agree on the Skaven thing; Skaven were always a horde army but had the option to go elite as well, with mean shooting and devastating Magic, and the Doomwheel and Verminlord are old news, either. The only thing that really changed is that Stormvermin are no longer 0-1 and the newly developed brokenness that is the Hellpit Abo. I think we would have been better off without that thing.

eyescrossed
20-03-2010, 08:23
Oh sure, Warhammer's changing all the time. Compare 6th Edition books to 7th Ed books and you'll see. You pretty much nailed it anyway.

However I won't agree on the Skaven thing; Skaven were always a horde army but had the option to go elite as well, with mean shooting and devastating Magic, and the Doomwheel and Verminlord are old news, either. The only thing that really changed is that Stormvermin are no longer 0-1 and the newly developed brokenness that is the Hellpit Abo. I think we would have been better off without that thing.

Ah, well it's good to know I'm not delusional :)

Oh, okay. I wasn't really sure what they were like last edition (and before) so I was a bit cautious on commenting on them.

I agree, though... I despise the HPA... Not because of its point cost or anything, the thing I hate the most about it is how it can turn in any direction and move that way... Basically "I can still charge you even if you move behind me" :rolleyes:


EDIT: I just want to say that I don't want this thread turning into a HPA hate thread.

Grey Mage
20-03-2010, 08:54
Would it have been hard to require a Clan Moulder Hero per HPA? I dont think so.

Anyways, yes the game is becoming more agressive, just like 40k did in 5th edition. Power levels are going up, and hopefully balancing out. Its alot easier to set a high bar and then hit it several times with game design than try to nerf everything to an equal level.

eyescrossed
20-03-2010, 09:09
Would it have been hard to require a Clan Moulder Hero per HPA? I dont think so.

Anyways, yes the game is becoming more agressive, just like 40k did in 5th edition. Power levels are going up, and hopefully balancing out. Its alot easier to set a high bar and then hit it several times with game design than try to nerf everything to an equal level.

That's a great idea... I wish they did that :cries:

Yeah, I agree with that.

Condottiere
20-03-2010, 09:41
As they say, follow the money.

Since it might be more commercially viable, the rules would tend to favour a lineup what is supposed to be the most likely to make money for the publisher. If that is perceived to be having games with more troops on the table, then you can look forward to having army books biased in that direction.

eyescrossed
20-03-2010, 09:57
As they say, follow the money.

Since it might be more commercially viable, the rules would tend to favour a lineup what is supposed to be the most likely to make money for the publisher. If that is perceived to be having games with more troops on the table, then you can look forward to having army books biased in that direction.

For some reason, making money seemed to slip my mind when I posted this topic.

I see what you mean.

Fredrik
20-03-2010, 10:21
I also agree that there seems to have been a shift away from "normal" warhammer towards ignore as many rule restrictions as possible ei, Itp, unbreakable 360 charge, 20" move.

If all the armies followed this fine it would just be the next generation of WHFB. The problem is however that different disgners of the armies do this to different extents making the armies powerlevel a bit unreliable. The army is either on the new train or totally screwed. (if you cant take out a few of the opponents big nastys then you loose, see beastmen OK, OnG, few magic attacks, no-little fire damage, fagile psycology).


As for powercreep, this is the interesting part. From DoC on the armies have had a good powerlevel (some better then others) until beastmen that are clearly alot lower in power level then the other books.

The question is then if this is a new turn in WHFB towards 8th ed of if this book just was a mistake and really should have had a power level close to the others.

What do you guys think, are we keeping the higher powerlevel or do we se a paradigmshift in beastmen that represent the new 8th ed way+

Grey Mage
20-03-2010, 11:09
Neither, I think that people havent had a year of playing beastmen yet, so they havent found all the best combos and all the unit-niches, nor have they converted up all the big uglies and exploited the worst of the spells.

BM have the potential to be on the same power level as VCs or DEs.... they just are green at the moment.

The Red Scourge
20-03-2010, 13:11
Yup, it won't take long till we start hearing the cries of cheese :cheese:

Harwammer
20-03-2010, 14:09
Cries of 'Mozzarella' directed at the depths of the forest...

Ultimate Life Form
20-03-2010, 14:30
Cries of 'Mozzarella' directed at the depths of the forest...

Seeing the book, 'Monstarella' would be more appropriate.

jamano
20-03-2010, 14:34
Skaven leadership aside from the generals isn't any better(the grey seer is a 7 instead of a 6 now). Every unit I can find has the same leadership as it did last edition. The problem you're having is misunderstand what kind of leadership problems skaven have. They're not a low leadership army like goblins, they actually have good leadership as long as nothing is going wrong If you make a unit flee, it has a bad chance to rally because it can't use strength in numbers(and a horrible chance to rally if it isn't near the general) same goes for flanking them, they lose their rank bonus and are gonna fail a break test pretty bad there. The real vulnerable ones are the ones that wont be near the general and dont have ranks to make up for it, slaves start at 2 so even with 3 ranks theyre only leadership 5. Jezzails have 5, real easy to get rid of if you make them panic, Even the doomwheel has to just lose combat by one(which has happened to me so many times...) and its rolling on a 6 to survive. Stormvermin aren't really worth it this edition aside from being able to take magic banners, but that's mostly because core troops arent too hot with this edition for other reasons you said.

Sygerrik
20-03-2010, 17:50
That's a great idea... I wish they did that :cries:

Yeah, I agree with that.

Would have been pretty tricky given that there's no such thing as a Moulder hero anymore.

Yeah, you might mean Master Moulders, but I don't think that would solve the HPA problem, since they're unit upgrades to Giant Rats and Ogres and cheap as hell.

Grey Mage
20-03-2010, 17:53
Wouldnt have been hard to make a small upgrade with a couple extra rules, or just limit it to 0-1.

Curufew
20-03-2010, 19:00
Ya. There are deathstar units that are clearly better than their contemporaries within their own armybook.

Alltaken
20-03-2010, 19:05
I would agree levels are going up, however DoC level hasn't been attained yet by any other army. There's a huge difference in lvl

Fredrik
20-03-2010, 19:08
Well I wouldnīt hold my breath for beast being cheesed ut any time soon (LOL). After 8th comes maby who knows but under the current rules Iīm afraid they are a lost cause on the competetive scene.

But back to business, I do hope that GW really is taking a new hold over fantasy trough
8th ed and I do hope the realise that balance is the way to go.

Also hoping that they, like in beastmen, go back somewhat towards less special rules and super units (also having to pay trough the nose for big monsters).

Djekar
20-03-2010, 20:33
Alltaken: I believe that Dark Elves would like to have a word with you about being on Daemon's power level.

As far as the OP goes, having fought skaven since 5th ed. I would say they still seem much the same, and as ULF implied they just go elite in a different way now than they used to, especially in 6th edition.

Maelstorm
20-03-2010, 22:47
I would say that GW is raising the powerlevel in warhammer with each new edition.
I played HE during 6th ed, and if you compare them to the 7th ed, itīs just worlds apart.

The problem is that the more the power level is raised, the harder it will be to take it down to "normal" levels. Now it looks like every new book is trying to be the best one, which probably is very good for commerce, but isnīt as fun for players.

So, yeah, I would say that the game is changning.

brendel
21-03-2010, 00:41
I think its more a marketing sceam than anything.
6th ed must have not been as profitable to them as they had hoped as they tried to make all the army more even droping alot of the speical rules for alot of units, or this is what they intended at the beginning of 6th ed.
I think its been more of a money maker for them to bring out a few power army's to get powergamers and people that just dont like losing to go out and buy these armys, next time around it will be a different army's getting the power hype, getting people to sell off there old armys and start again.

Gaargod
21-03-2010, 05:10
BM have the potential to be on the same power level as VCs or DEs.... they just are green at the moment.


No they don't.

I'm sorry, that's just wishful thinking (or being pessimistic). Its not 'the sky is falling' bad, but they're clearly nowhere near the level of DE/VC, already. Hell, first time i read the book (note: this was a few weeks before it even came out, commented quite a lot on rumours) i could see that. Yes, some things are rather good, but there are no hydra/RoH,PoK,shadestar/hatred dragon levels going on there.
Important note: unlike recent books, their magic is actually fairly weak (ish). Yes, they have the potential to get a lot of dice etc, but at high cost and difficulty.

Enigmatik1
21-03-2010, 15:54
No they don't.

I'm sorry, that's just wishful thinking (or being pessimistic). Its not 'the sky is falling' bad, but they're clearly nowhere near the level of DE/VC, already. Hell, first time i read the book (note: this was a few weeks before it even came out, commented quite a lot on rumours) i could see that. Yes, some things are rather good, but there are no hydra/RoH,PoK,shadestar/hatred dragon levels going on there.
Important note: unlike recent books, their magic is actually fairly weak (ish). Yes, they have the potential to get a lot of dice etc, but at high cost and difficulty.

I dunno, Gaar. I've been gaming in general for a long time and in my experience, power-gamers can break just about anything given time and resources. They haven't had the time obviously. It's merely a question of whether or not sufficient resources are present for them to abuse.

At a glance, the BM book seems to have some good stuff in it. I wouldn't call any of it broken by any means, but I've always been a terrible power-gamer. :D

Xynok
25-03-2010, 23:52
Okay. People who field skaven like that. Those people? Are *****. Foegnasher for example who I take a lot of inspiration from is a horder.

ChaosVC
26-03-2010, 02:49
I think even elite skaven army are still more hordy than any army in WFB... but you can't stop people from being a cheese ball, but you can stop playing with them as a very valid option if you don't enjoy those game.

Kevlar
26-03-2010, 04:11
Skaven are still just a shadow of their 4th edition power. Censer bearers used to be str 4 and take all break tests on unmodified leadership 10. Crown of command was a staple. And the Vermin Lord was second only to the Bloodthirster in power. Now all the greater demons outclass him. Stormvermin were str 4 and could have great weapons. Grey seers had the stat line of a warlord plus the ability to cast spells. Now they get leadership 7 big deal.

Skaven were always one of the elite armies. 6th edition just made them uncompetitve. Thank goodness a small piece of their former glory was returned in 7th.

ChaosVC
26-03-2010, 04:54
You are kidding me...6th ed skaven are notoriously known for being the horde shooty army of doom.... Alesio takes a lot for crap from people who hates skaven for its awesomeness in beating the crap out of every army that cannot deal with its awesomeness of shooty magick power of blast you to kingdom come....

Kevlar
26-03-2010, 05:08
You are kidding me...6th ed skaven are notoriously known for being the horde shooty army of doom.... Alesio takes a lot for crap from people who hates skaven for its awesomeness in beating the crap out of every army that cannot deal with its awesomeness of shooty magick power of blast you to kingdom come....

The "shooty army of doom" was a gimmick that worked only when it didn't blow itself up and your opponent had no terror bombs or artillery capable of causing panic checks. In other words very seldom.

silashand
27-03-2010, 20:59
I don't know that warhammer is changing so much, but I do think the designers are bordering on the ridiculous with regard to army books now. I mean really, carts (bell, furnace) that are pushed by infantry that do imact hits, and S5 ones at that? Give me a *********** break. That's just plain stupid.

Cheers, Gary

enigma-96
27-03-2010, 22:39
I'm just a casual Fantasy player so maybe I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about but it seems to me that Warhammer is very quickly becoming "Monster-Hammer" (You know I'm not sure if I picked this up on Warseer or at my game store, hmmm? w/e the case I agree with it.)

Seriously it's gone back to the point where basic troops are complete jokes and "SPESHUL UNITS" are the only way to stay remotely competitive. 40k is just starting to go this route but at least the 40k designers have the common deceny to allow both "SPESHUL UNIT" armies and regular joe armies to exist rather comfortably in the same battle, I.E. remain balanced against one another, but in Fantasy? Hell no if you want to beat someone who spams big scary units and you don't have any yourself it suddenly becomes a staggeringly difficult uphill battle (That isn't to say that you can't win) whereas your opponent knows he has some leeway to screw up and still come out on top.

All in all I hope 8th fixes this because I was really looking forward to finally having some free time to devote to nothing but fantasy but alas I really don't enjoy playing against any of the new books, unless they purposely tone it down or if it's beastmen which are A-OK ;) in my book.

Sygerrik
28-03-2010, 04:19
I don't know that warhammer is changing so much, but I do think the designers are bordering on the ridiculous with regard to army books now. I mean really, carts (bell, furnace) that are pushed by infantry that do imact hits, and S5 ones at that? Give me a *********** break. That's just plain stupid.

Cheers, Gary

That's not really a "change." The Screaming Bell has been around for ages.

Warhammer's not really changing. It's more like 5th now that it has been since the start of 6th. It's reverting. And I'm sure 8th will function much as 6th did and put the focus back on troops, before it gradually trends back. This is a cycle we've been on for a while.

Stinkfoot
28-03-2010, 05:02
The "shooty army of doom" was a gimmick that worked only when it didn't blow itself up and your opponent had no terror bombs or artillery capable of causing panic checks. In other words very seldom.

As I recall, Skaven were the highest placing tournament army in 6th edition and the only other army that even came close to their winning percentage was Bretonnia. SAD was made of pure win. Their magic was overwhelming, Ratling guns were the most underpriced unit in the game, etc. You must not have played against 6th Edition Skaven much...

I do agree that Warhammer is trending towards Monster-hammer and I think it's a sad thing. Monsters can be fun, but I feel like they ought to be support units who at best have a 50/50 chance of overcoming static combat-res. The Abomb is an unstoppable killing machine (though I can deal with them easily enough with my undead - most armies don't have resurrectable unbreakable tarpit units). The Hydra is grossly overpowered for it's bargain-basement price. The Bloodthirster with standard-kit is so powerful that against some armies the daemon player really needn't bother bringing his Plague-bearers and flamers.

I like Warhammer a lot, but if the current trends continue I might have to switch to Warhammer Ancient instead...