PDA

View Full Version : Beastmen become the laughing stock?



Loki73
21-03-2010, 04:52
Hello all,

It seems that beastmen have become the laughing stock of WHFB. I plop them out on the table and I get looks of ravening hungry armies looking to devour my poor beasties. Or .."oh beast men..."

To be honest I like my beasties I like the fluff and the look. They play is ok. previously i played woc and they seemed a little more competative. maybe its my lack of experience with fantasy in general. Maybe its the whine of "my army suxxorz now!" I see posted.

It is a bit off putting. Atm I have 2 wins and 2 losses. Im playing Bretonians tommorow against a skilled player, it should be fun regardless.

with little protection and bad LD stats is my main gripe lol. But seriously, are the beasties the red headed step child of warhammer or what?

Loki

Enigmatik1
21-03-2010, 04:57
Oh boy...you're potentially opening up a huge can of worms.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say "no." I'll leave the reasons as to why to other, less biased folks. ;)

Loki73
21-03-2010, 05:01
Well maybe its just in my area. Im tryin to stay positive and when I win its even better. Id love to here why as I may have missed something about them.

Witchblade
21-03-2010, 05:02
Tier wise, they're not that low on the list I think. I haven't played the new list yet, but I estimate they're medium tier.

Model wise, yes, they have the funniest models. Steroid cows and pumbagors...

Fluff wise, they're pretty neglected by GW.

Loki73
21-03-2010, 05:07
LOL thats why I like them. Models that is. Pumbagors hehe.

Ultimate Life Form
21-03-2010, 05:09
One would think you should have grown accustomed to that by now... :shifty:

The SkaerKrow
21-03-2010, 07:46
Take the Minotaurs and the Razorgor kits out of the equation, and Beastmen actually have one of the better miniature lines in Warhammer Fantasy. The Gors, Ungors and Bestigor are all detailed and characterful kits, while a lot of the older models have held up pretty well. The army also lends itself particularly well to conversions, as the book seems to encourage players to heap the "gribbly" on their miniatures. They also have a fairly impressive number of plastic kits (Gors, Ungors, Chaos Hounds, Bestigors, Minotaurs, Chaos Giants and Chaos Spawn). With a couple of conversions for characters, you can actually field an all plastic Beastmen army without putting much effort into kitbashes and the like.

In terms of power level, Beastmen seem to be firmly entrenched in the middle of the pack. They can compete with most armies, though they are notably without a reliable Dragon/Bloodthirster counter. Because of their fragility, Beastmen can be challenging to play, but they have enough dirty tricks and potent hammer type units to reward a player who knows how to use the army. A lot of their perceived weakness comes from the fact that the army completely lacks a big, arguably unbalanced unit (War Hydra, Engine of the Gods, Hellpit Abomination, etc), which makes them unattractive for WAAC/Ultra-competitive players who are looking for victory via the path of least resistance. Couple this with the fact that Beastmen are actually an entirely new army (bearing only cursory resemblance to the old Beasts of Chaos), and you end up with a force that a lot of players neither understand nor appreciate.

Trust me, you're better off playing an army that's under apprecated as opposed to one which is feared and lamented. As a Dark Elf player, I can tell you that the rude (and more often than not, completely misinformed) sideline comments that such books draw get old very, very quickly.

Sygerrik
21-03-2010, 07:50
A lot of people think they are much worse than they actually are because people love to complain and cry doom. Players also like to blame their army when they lose instead of their personal failures.

They're weak. They're not on the same level as Lizards, Skaven, HE and the other midtier armies. They're not as weak as OnG or Ogres, but they are weak.

snottlebocket
21-03-2010, 09:16
They aren't horrible but they have a lot of flaws and pitfalls that the beastman general needs to be aware of and patch up.

So far I've seen rather a lot of beastmen armies that just plunk down a lot of stuff and then look horrified when their unprotected Cygor drops dead and a lot of units scatter in panic as gors and other creatures start to die.

Condottiere
21-03-2010, 09:25
I rather liked the Marauder rule; but it seems to me that playing against a combined Hordes/Beast army was more dangerous.

Unuhexium
21-03-2010, 09:37
Two wins and two losses with a completely new army is by no means a bad track record. Almost all players in my area are highly experienced and it took me about a year before I started winning frequently with my WoC. Pour yourself a big cup of coffee and sit down and think about how you can utilize your troops to maximum effect. Some armies have a steep learning curve. Beastmen might be one of those. You have some of the cheapest screens/redirectors in the game (warhounds). Use them to divide your opponent's army so you don't have to fight everything at once.

What I'm saying with this post is: don't lose hope just because you don't crush all opposition. Two wins and two losses signals a balanced army and what scores ideally should be like to keep everyone happy. All armies (thankfully) aren't Daemons... oh and stop whining (had to say it) =P

Fredrik
21-03-2010, 10:54
Well from someone who plays the new beastmen, WoC and have been playing WHFB for 17 years (and sometimes might geta bit to competetive for his and others liking). The new beastmen really are below the new armies in power level for competetvie play (yes I have played alot of games with the new book). In regular play where you might be able to tailor list and not playing against WAACers they can do alright but are still not forgiving.

I agree that they are not as bad as OK or OnG but they can not play on par with the other armies in competetive play. This is pimarely because of their lack of stability. By that I meen they are way to dependent on the dice outcome.

Now you say hey the game is all about dice, but what I meen is that the whole army is constantly on the brink between success and failior so the dice is to important to this army.

With no armour, expensive magic with little boost, low Ld and little to no shooting, and lacking in the magicitem section, the army just fall short against a few things.

Firstly facing fear and terror is a huge thing for this army because of Ld 6 and 7, you can not babysit everything in the army and the Generals Ld only reaches so far. And frankly having around 50% to charge fear or terror causers with even your hitty stuff is just to much of a gamble to go the whole way. Lets face it most things competetive today just ignores psycology and causes psych tests on others.

Now there is a few ways to ignore the psych trough using the minotaur chars and frenzy. But this also limits the way you play since GW felty it nessesary to make them only pursue 1 6d thus making them much more easely controlled and baited (not even mentioning luring mino chars out of gors or ungors).

This togheter that the Beastmen have little in the way to deal with regen (only fire damage on SC). We also depend on breaking most things that are not S3 RnF on the charge or we will loose the war of attrition. The low to none exsisting armour sees to that.

We also get to pay premium price for our big nastys (that cost the exact same amount???). Sure I can live with the cost, heck I even thing that big things should be this expensive, but we canīt be the only ones who pay 100 pts more then their worth compared to other armies. Our bigguys with large target and no save it small arms fire wet dream.

These points together just makes beastmen fall short when it comes to the competetive side (I do think that ETC where right to put them in class C since you unlike other armies feel like you are something short once the army is complete ).

This having siad I donīt think they are a complete wash. Storywise they are cool and seem to be taken in to thier own a bit more. As for the models the have some of the absolotely best model range of all (not mentioning mintaurs or razorgors).

Iīs just that they lack a few thing in this edtition (donīt know what will happend in 8th) to hold thier own. A few price decreases here, a few better magic items there and a few small rules alteration to ambush and removing the 1 6d pursue and the army would be on par with most.

But alas right now it is not.

Ultimate Life Form
21-03-2010, 11:03
I agree on most things here; what surprises me a bit is that no one mentions the Jabberslythe. I mean, ever. Since the book came out I hear everyone talking about Cygors and Ghorgons, but the Slythe is hardly ever mentioned. BUT from reading the book, I come to believe it might actually be the meanest of them all, I mean, c'mon, it's a (non-mount!) flying terror causer with a huge insta-kill aura and a penchant for eating things in its vicinity, and it seems to me that few can match this beast in combat. This should fill quite a few gaps in the army design. It should nuke most low-LD armies just by landing behind the lines. When I first read it I thought it's absolutely broken, but it seems it's not very popular with players so may I ask why?

Sylass
21-03-2010, 11:31
[...] When I first read it I thought it's absolutely broken, but it seems it's not very popular with players so may I ask why? It's not painted yet. :p

Seriously, I'm simply waiting for the 8th edition rules before restarting my BoC...Beastmen army. I don't want to create an army before knowing the changes to the core rules...some of the options/rules in the new Beastmen book look a bit odd but maybe 8th edition will be able to shed some light there.

In addition my old BoC army isn't playable with the new book, so I'll have to change the army list/style of play completely (used to run an ambushing army made of Gors, Ungors and hounds mostly).

Fredrik
21-03-2010, 12:53
Well I do use the jabber for itīs flying and rankbreaking abilities. It is still an arm and a leg in pricing for a largetarget with only T 5 and no save. For itīs pricetag (hydra +100) it is way to easely taken out compared to other lists options.

As for itīs ability, that is a bonus. Not working against ItP really dampens itīs effect. Also against the top armies that either have loads of ItP or ld it has to little impact to actually do much damage on a regular basis to be that good. Against armies with high Ld you can mostly cause 2-3 wounds with the effect. (had is worked against ItP then it would have been much better since it would have taken a few casualties here and there causing nuisence)

Basically Beastmen pay for what everybody belive that all the earlier big things (HPA, Hydra, Doomwheel etc) should have payed for. Our big things are just to easyely taken out even by large amounts of small st fire and attacks.

Seeing to HPA or the wargulf thier regen makes you on average have to give them 2x as much wounds as our guys with the same stats example. I know they have different roles and that flying gives us better chance of staying away but the large taget really messes that up, since it meens you are either behind a forrest or you are being shot at.

An example. archers bs 3 st 3 hit on 4 + due to large target, wounding on 6īs. for the jabber you need 5 wounds--> you need to his 30 on average and that meens 60 shots

For the HPA we need only to cause 1 wound more but with regen we need to cause 12 wounds to kill it (not taking in to account that it can come back) making it 6x12x2--> 144shots making it all but impossible to bring that amount of shots to bare during the time it is out of combat. So a small rule regen gives so much more protection to the HPA which is less expensive.

I know that the comparason might not be the best ones since they have different roles, just wanted to bring forthwhat is a symptomatic thing with beastmen. We lack all these little extra that does so much.

Sorry for the somewhat hasty and perhaps misspelling Iīm in a hurry. (I know maby I should wait to awnser them but... nope)

FORtheGREATERgood
21-03-2010, 14:44
Try playing OnG and watch your hopes and dreams go down the tube when your unit suddenly doesn't feel like fighting that turn, lmao. But seriously, they are not as bad as everyone makes them sound. They are new and people are still figuring them out which will take a little time. One of the people in my gaming group has them and in his first game with the new army book they exceeded all expectations that are gotten from reading any online forum. I'm not saying they are up there with skaven, vc, and the like, but they do deserve some credit. Minotaurs are pretty nasty.

Loki73
21-03-2010, 17:15
Jabberslyth. I have a good model for that one. Fantasy forge IIRC female daemon. looks beasty enough.

Jind_Singh
21-03-2010, 17:55
i've been playing WFB for eons, and have a love affair for my O & G, OK, Empire, and am an ex DoC player...

I've bought the BM book and read from cover to cover, heres my gripes with the book (and actually as a result of these gripes i'm starting the army as i love a challange!)

1) Core - Excellent selection of core troops, and most of the choices are decent enough - except for their pricing. At 6pts for an Ungor your getting Empire state trooper stats with less ld and slightly higher movement. SUre they want to price in the fact that you can ambush with them, but big deal?! They should have lowered their points and for EVERY UNIT you ambush add say 2pts a model....Gors are messy expensive, and look good to begin with - nice WS, orc toughness, good base move, BUT they have little or no armour save, and they can't go above str 3 for attacks! So for their price they are expensive.

This means I can't field a horde army - and this is sad news as the beastman fluff is all about the countless hordes of cloven hoofed ones who for some reason turn up in small numbers on the field of battle!!! Core chariots is a blessing though, but not enough to make the army.

2) Specials - I actually like all the special slots, the razorgors are hard hitters and well priced, minotaurs are not too bad for their pricing and rules, harpies are always fun - especially as you can scout them, and even the razorgor chariot is hard hitter but way overpriced for its points. Add to this that i'd never reallly use more than 2-3 specials per game which makes for more core...nice!

3) Rares - OH DEAR! What were they thinking? Lets create rules for 3 new monstors, Lets make the rules really good, and then we'll price them so high in points no one will care if a model is released for them or not as no one can use them! Seriously, who was smoking what when they priced out the 3 monstors? They are just shy of an Empire Steam Tank! HPA for the Skaven is much cheaper and deadlier - if anything the HPA should have had this price tag! WHen i saw the skaven book i sensed they were shifting to cheaper monstors but this has blown that expectation away from me - clear out of the water.
Infact, coupled with the fact we're paying through our noses for our core the only rares i'll EVER be using are 4 chaos spawn - and then im buying the special character who also creates more spawn out of a nearby unit!

I think my army is going to be along the lines of...

3 or 4 solid infantary units
ungor raiders galore
warhounds
chariots - 3 or 4
lore of beasts (not lore of wild, thats useless) heavy castors
spawn
harpies
razorgors (units of 3)

the aim being that i'll advance with the chariots behind the main units but still able to draw LOS to the front. This will (hopefully) prevent too many charges on my front line as no one will want a counter charging chariot. this will allow me to advance - and i'll throw out screens of hounds/raiders to protect the weak infantary blocks

then its engagement time! I'll also throw out the spawn to tie down key units for a few turns until I can close in.

The army is going to have a really bad time v's high armour saving armies like WoC or Brets but what can you do?!

Lord Anathir
21-03-2010, 17:59
Hello all,

It seems that beastmen have become the laughing stock of WHFB. I plop them out on the table and I get looks of ravening hungry armies looking to devour my poor beasties. Or .."oh beast men..."

To be honest I like my beasties I like the fluff and the look. They play is ok. previously i played woc and they seemed a little more competative. maybe its my lack of experience with fantasy in general. Maybe its the whine of "my army suxxorz now!" I see posted.

It is a bit off putting. Atm I have 2 wins and 2 losses. Im playing Bretonians tommorow against a skilled player, it should be fun regardless.

with little protection and bad LD stats is my main gripe lol. But seriously, are the beasties the red headed step child of warhammer or what?

Loki

Better that then high elves which everyone thinks are so overpowered but are really one of lowest tiered armies. If you win, its because of ASF. If you lose, its because youre a lazy noob and nothing to do with having the highest points to (inverse) fragility ratio troops in the game. At least in 6th edition credit was duly given.

wizbix
21-03-2010, 18:15
Hello all,

It seems that beastmen have become the laughing stock of WHFB. I plop them out on the table and I get looks of ravening hungry armies looking to devour my poor beasties. Or .."oh beast men..."

To be honest I like my beasties I like the fluff and the look. They play is ok. previously i played woc and they seemed a little more competative. maybe its my lack of experience with fantasy in general. Maybe its the whine of "my army suxxorz now!" I see posted.

It is a bit off putting. Atm I have 2 wins and 2 losses. Im playing Bretonians tommorow against a skilled player, it should be fun regardless.

with little protection and bad LD stats is my main gripe lol. But seriously, are the beasties the red headed step child of warhammer or what?

Loki


2 wins and 2 loses and now your complaining? Forgive me for pointing out that you have so far a 50% success rate even if it is only 4 games. I think i'm going to head butt a wall now to make myself feel better. :shifty:

Harwammer
21-03-2010, 21:48
Beastmen have been the punching bag for all of 7th ed anyway. Furthermore its the BoC's FAQ's fault that DoC received the rediculous monster/character ruling. At least we don't have random ranking issues or unruly any more, my two biggest gripes were dealt with (on a similar note: good luck getting rid of animosity boyz)!

I say bring back T4 ungors and W2 gor/bestigor :P

Enough whining though; a 50% win/loss ratio is pretty decent, in fact you should be mocking the two people who lost to your 'inferior' army.

What kind of build do you use loki?

I go for beastlord in razorgor chariot, caddy, a couple of raider units, a couple of small ranked ungor units, a couple of chariots, a couple of units of hounds, ~12 minotaurs split into three or four units and a couple of 275 monsters. I take two monsters as a single monster is far too easy to deal with.

Maoriboy007
21-03-2010, 21:57
They kicked my VC armys ass when I played them.

scarletsquig
22-03-2010, 02:02
How do I put this gently... ?

ChaosVC
22-03-2010, 02:39
Well Beastman actually can still be a very effective army. Its weakeness in relatively low leadership had to be due to the fact that unlike its counter parts(armies with similar low leaderships), it cannot play a stand back and shoot army and it does not have the benefit of the orcs who at least gets Light armour and shield, marauders with will of chaos and skaven with strenght in numbers. So they can easily get shot badly and take alot of panic test, including units that fail their panic test and fled thru their own unit behind.

So in the end of the day, units like gors and ungors are better field as ambushers while the field is filled with mini ungor skirmishers and harpies unit shield minotuars and pumbagors(haha) and beastman is the only army that I have little problem with them taking their over costed monster selection, jabberslyth and cygor.

Yes they are not as powerful as DE VC ....and need we say DOC but they can still pack a punch. What disappoint me about the army is that mr Phill Kelly made an interesting skirmishing mob like Beast of Chaos army into a discipline rank and file parading soldiers. "Yawn".

Loki73
22-03-2010, 03:02
The army is going to have a really bad time v's high armour saving armies like WoC or Brets but what can you do?!

yeah I got massacred by a bret army lol. Although my gorgon ate alot of knights!

he charges I flee.....i charge he flees counters with the other heavy cav not running. rallies and runs me down in later games. Heres my list

Lord
(brass cleaver, hvy armor, shield, troll hide, talisman of prot)

Gorebull

bsb (hvy armor 2handed wpn, horned helm, scaly skin save thingy)


20 gor full command add wpns
19 gor mus std shields (yeah I knwo its the way thier modled)
x5 units of five ungor raiders
x1 chariot
x1 chariot

bestigors x15
(full command warbanner)
x3 minos (with add wpns)
x3 minos (with 2handed wpns)
x5 hapries

x1 gorgon

I actually had 10 bestigors ambush 10 pesants turn one only to be killed by them in hth later

basically it would go like this kights charge 20 gors flle bhind minos and then jnight would be in charge range of my minos. But when I charged hed flee and follow up with other knights. Ha had allot of knights inc grail knight which kick me in the teeth.

Beast cowers worked x2 on a flying unit of pegesus knights.
gorbull and co killed a unit of knights
gorgon ate through two units of knights luckily (he rolled crappy when he tried to flee)
one chariot kills a unit of yeomen
another gets killed in protracted combat by getting run down


BSB did help alot. But he did a good jump of trying to avoid charges by the minos.

Herod
22-03-2010, 03:48
I play both O&G and Beasts, and based on games I've had so far I'd say the O&G have fewer bad matchups because they have a much bigger tool box. Beasts can hit hard, but they need a lot to go their way.

H

TheOneWithNoName
22-03-2010, 07:47
I play both O&G and Beasts...

Are you a masochist? :p

Jind_Singh
22-03-2010, 08:00
Reading through the beastman book again just now....just realized that Bestigors and the army BSB are the ONLY 2 units in the entire army that can take magic standards! How dull does it seem that Minotaurs can't take magic standards?! Thats just plain wrong!

Condottiere
22-03-2010, 08:07
How intelligent and restrained are Minotaurs? They may have a tendency to lose them.

DarkMark
22-03-2010, 10:40
yeah I got raped by a bret army lol.


Why do so many people using warhammer forums feel this language is acceptable? :mad:

The Red Scourge
22-03-2010, 10:51
We also get to pay premium price for our big nastys (that cost the exact same amount???). Sure I can live with the cost, heck I even thing that big things should be this expensive, but we canīt be the only ones who pay 100 pts more then their worth compared to other armies. Our bigguys with large target and no save it small arms fire wet dream.

Now compare to a slave giant, tomb king giant, treeman, shaggoth, giant and STank, and you'll feel a lot better about the pricing of the beastmen monsters.

Your whining should really be directed at the pricing of the hydra, a-bomb and doomwheel.

Trouble with beastmen isn't that they are a bad army, in fact they'll probably fare well against the majority of armies out there and make for fun games. Trouble is that players seem to be looking for some über exploitable hook to make the next deathstar monstermash army of cheesy boredom, and that it just isn't there :rolleyes:

fattdex
22-03-2010, 11:04
I actually had 10 bestigors ambush 10 pesants turn one only to be killed by them in hth later


wat

*bestigor can't ambush
*even if they could you would need a second unit of ten+ on the board to ambush
*even if they did you can't declare a charge the turn you enter a board edge from ambush

Darkspear
22-03-2010, 11:06
Now compare to a slave giant, tomb king giant, treeman, shaggoth, giant and STank, and you'll feel a lot better about the pricing of the beastmen monsters.

Your whining should really be directed at the pricing of the hydra, a-bomb and doomwheel.

Trouble with beastmen isn't that they are a bad army, in fact they'll probably fare well against the majority of armies out there and make for fun games. Trouble is that players seem to be looking for some über exploitable hook to make the next deathstar monstermash army of cheesy boredom, and that it just isn't there :rolleyes:

I think you capture the point very well. I totally agree. I saw an beastman army totally destroy a skaven army last saturday. The list is very strong although slightly gimmicky.

The Red Scourge
22-03-2010, 12:23
Yup. People whine about the superpower armies, and then they whine about armies being too 'balanced' :p

Enigmatik1
22-03-2010, 13:37
2 wins and 2 loses and now your complaining? Forgive me for pointing out that you have so far a 50% success rate even if it is only 4 games. I think i'm going to head butt a wall now to make myself feel better. :shifty:

Well, in his defense I did the exact same thing with Tomb Kings when I started them and after taking a 10+ year hiatus from Warhammer. I'm still at roughly 50/50 almost 2 years later. I should qualify that by saying that I don't have to face DoC, DE or VC. :)

Just because I get lucky or manage to catch my opponent with his/her pants down doesn't mean my army doesn't have tons of issues.

Jack of Blades
22-03-2010, 13:47
Trouble with beastmen isn't that they are a bad army, in fact they'll probably fare well against the majority of armies out there and make for fun games. Trouble is that players seem to be looking for some über exploitable hook to make the next deathstar monstermash army of cheesy boredom, and that it just isn't there :rolleyes:

This sums it up, whenever a broken army gets released people whine that it's broken. Then when another new army gets released after that it's whined at for one of three things:

1) Actually having clear-cut weaknesses & thus it can't really contend with the broken armies (Beastmen)
2) Being broken so that it overpowers the non-broken armies (DoC)
3) Portions of the army being broken (Skaven)

Basically, if the army isn't contributing to the power creep it gets whined at for being too weak... if it does, it gets whined at for contributing to the power creep ;)

Jagosaja
22-03-2010, 14:34
Well, I'd go that far to say that not all monsters are overpriced. Ghorgon has a good price. I don't know how other people play him, but I always take two and they win my games. So far my win ratio is around 60%. Come on people, Beastmen have cheapest obligatory core in the game, for 90 points. We can have units of five shooting skirmishers with M5 that are core. They win my games too. Let me explain what I do and what I find an advantage of beastmen over other armies.

No matter what some may say about ambush, for me it is upgraded. I take four small units of Ungor Raiders, deploy two in the corners of the board in my deployment zone and leave them there. Two ambush. Statistics say that they will most probably both appear by turn 4. So, if I get to choose I deploy them in the corner of enemy deployment zone, if I get one side it is the same, and if they turn up in my zone it takes them 3 turns to march into an enemy quarters of the board. For 120 points I have units of unit strength in all quarters of the board. They don't ever do anything else, they just sit in corners and earn their points. If an opponent tries to kill them he is wasting a turn to kill a 30 point unit while some hard hitters are breathing on his neck.

Ghorgons, although they have no armour, have T6 and 6 Wounds. They can even heal. They are stubborn with Ld 10. If you want to tarpit any enemy just try to eat his models every turn, heal yourself and pass those Ld10 tests. Choose easy combats at the start of the game and get zillion of attacks. When I took a charge from a fresh Bloodthirster, I already had 11 attacks. I previously lost a wound, he did too from a chariot charge. He took 3 wounds from me, I took him down. Now he had 12 attacks. How may points would you pay for 12 S6 attacks monster?

Our lord - Doombull can have Regen, AS 4+ and S8 at the same time. This alone can bring anything down. Or AS 1+ and S9. Damn!!! You can field 5+ chariots and still field a large army. Beastmen can overwhelm any army from the first turn. True, we have no armour, our Ld is low, but we can outmanoevre any amry out there, even WE.

Now, they are not an army for the beginners, you can't just field them and smash everyone down. But that is the beauty of it, if you play patiently, screen your frenzied units and make multiple charges, few things can stand Beastmen charge.

wizbix
22-03-2010, 14:53
Well, in his defense I did the exact same thing with Tomb Kings when I started them and after taking a 10+ year hiatus from Warhammer. I'm still at roughly 50/50 almost 2 years later. I should qualify that by saying that I don't have to face DoC, DE or VC. :)

Just because I get lucky or manage to catch my opponent with his/her pants down doesn't mean my army doesn't have tons of issues.

a 50% win/loss ratio does not equate to getting lucky some of the time.

wizbix
22-03-2010, 14:57
Why do so many people using warhammer forums feel this language is acceptable? :mad:


Some do, some don't. I don't.

Sons of Blight
22-03-2010, 18:30
thats silly the new beastmen are a threat to anyone as long as people use them as a horde army and not an elite force they'll do fine. - And I hear a bunch of negatives about beastagores(sp?) put a gorebull with them- now' they are frenzied with strength 6 attacks... Not really seeing a down fall to the list. whats the complaint?

Lordy
22-03-2010, 18:39
Tier wise - bottom tier without a doubt

Item wise - One of the weakest item lists in Fantasy.

Model wise - worst in fantasy probably, i would imagine is is probably what most people are laughing at though and not the weakness of the book.

I am keeping the faith with Beasties at the moment, but if a new race or something came out they would be sold straight away i think to collect the new one.
The sparkle has fizzed out of our relationship :(

GrogDaTyrant
22-03-2010, 18:58
I think the biggest major problem to Beastmen now, is that they lost much of their skirmishing. Ld is an issue, but they've got nothing close to the Ld issues that some armies have (*cough* goblins).

On a side note, I'm a lot less sane than the average individual, but I love the new Minotaur models. Not a fan of the Pumbagor, but the Minotaurs look like a big, muscle-bound, ugly cow-man. Which IMHO, is how they should look. Yet at the same time, they retain enough of that 'chaos-influence' to set them apart from typical minotaur models seen in other miniature ranges. I like 'em. I like the slabs upon slabs of muscle. And I imagine them singing the 'Nom nom nom' song in a deep, gravelly voice whenever they charge something.

The SkaerKrow
22-03-2010, 19:15
Tier wise - bottom tier without a doubt

Item wise - One of the weakest item lists in Fantasy.

Model wise - worst in fantasy probably, i would imagine is is probably what most people are laughing at though and not the weakness of the book.I look forward to crushing people like this with my Beastmen army in the near future.

Lordy
22-03-2010, 19:29
I have played Beastmen for several years, they are far far lower down the ladder than my High Elves are.
Come to england and crush me with Beastmen and i'll buy you a pint!

Sirisaacnuton
22-03-2010, 20:27
Why do so many people using warhammer forums feel this language is acceptable? :mad:

To be fair, this is far from being confined to warhammer forums. Raped=beaten/defeated has become about as ingrained with many young people as gay=bad/stupid. Earlier this year, after taking one of my tests, a student told me he raped it. His eyes immediately got wide and he clammed up...not for any embarrassment at having said the word in general, but that he said it to his teacher. It's just simply such a part of his vocabulary that he didn't even think about it.

My gaming groups use this a good bit. There have even been a couple discussions where people mentioned that they realized they need to start using it less, because they're catching themselves almost using the word in venues outside gaming stores or their buddy's house. But I think this is pretty firmly entrenched in this generation...who knows how many Xbox live handles out there run along the lines of Rapezorz?

Jagosaja
22-03-2010, 20:51
I have played Beastmen for several years, they are far far lower down the ladder than my High Elves are.
Come to england and crush me with Beastmen and i'll buy you a pint!

I mostly play against High Elves, and I mostly crush them with my Beastmen. Having in mind that High Elves with ASF are a bane versus no armour beasts, being able to destroy them is a feat.

They used to be lower tier, they are not any more. They used to have lousy items, not any more as well, though their magic stuff doesn't shine as much as does for some of the other armies.

Tell me, how do fragile ASF High Elves deal with multiple chariot charges? Yes, High Elves probably are stronger than Beastmen, but that does not make Beastmen weak. They have their weak points but they have many tricks up their sleeves and sure can pack a punch. The fact that they are not broken does not make them crap.

I see builds that can take tourneys just on the effect of surprise. Time will tell how they will be in the coming years, but now I certainly don't see them as lower tier army.

Jack of Blades
22-03-2010, 20:57
Why do so many people using warhammer forums feel this language is acceptable? :mad:

Because some or even most of us feel foul language is completely acceptable. Besides that I for some reason don't use it in Swedish, just in English. Guess våldta just doesn't have the same cling to it as rape...

Lordy
22-03-2010, 21:22
I mostly play against High Elves, and I mostly crush them with my Beastmen. Having in mind that High Elves with ASF are a bane versus no armour beasts, being able to destroy them is a feat.

They used to be lower tier, they are not any more. They used to have lousy items, not any more as well, though their magic stuff doesn't shine as much as does for some of the other armies.

Tell me, how do fragile ASF High Elves deal with multiple chariot charges? Yes, High Elves probably are stronger than Beastmen, but that does not make Beastmen weak. They have their weak points but they have many tricks up their sleeves and sure can pack a punch. The fact that they are not broken does not make them crap.

I see builds that can take tourneys just on the effect of surprise. Time will tell how they will be in the coming years, but now I certainly don't see them as lower tier army.

Did you really just ask how HE deal with chariots?

Cartoon
22-03-2010, 21:23
A lot of people felt the same way about WoC when they were first released. Since the book lacked any very apparent insta-win combos or anything that really stood out as a game breaker, ie double hydras, multiple HPAs, bloodthirsters with obsidian armor, ect, it's easy to discount it as weak when compared to some of the uber units or monsters of other books. While WoC is by far from the most powerful army book out there, I have found that they are able to at least hold their own against most lists.

Sure, star dragons and ASF black guard might be a little tricky, but I don't think their quite so weak as was first thought. For some books it takes time to develop a strategy that can contend with some of the stronger armies, but in most cases it's there. It can be a little disappointing when your favorite army lacks the firepower of a lot of the newer army books, but don't give up hope just yet. 8th edition is probably going to change the way things work quite a bit and what was useless today may be pretty strong tomorrow.

ooglatjama
22-03-2010, 23:12
Why do so many people using warhammer forums feel this language is acceptable? :mad:

rape - an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation

Loki73
23-03-2010, 01:01
Why do so many people using warhammer forums feel this language is acceptable? :mad:

Changed. next time pm me ok? Thank you.


Originally Posted by Loki73
I actually had 10 bestigors ambush 10 pesants turn one only to be killed by them in hth later

ok ungor raider geez ...........

Loki73
23-03-2010, 01:08
I have played Beastmen for several years, they are far far lower down the ladder than my High Elves are.
Come to england and crush me with Beastmen and i'll buy you a pint!

Your on! :)

Volker the Mad Fiddler
23-03-2010, 01:19
SNIP
3) Rares - OH DEAR! What were they thinking? Lets create rules for 3 new monstors, Lets make the rules really good, and then we'll price them so high in points no one will care if a model is released for them or not as no one can use them! Seriously, who was smoking what when they priced out the 3 monstors? They are just shy of an Empire Steam Tank! HPA for the Skaven is much cheaper and deadlier - if anything the HPA should have had this price tag!
SNIP

Here's the thing though, those Beastmen monsters are probably the ones priced correctly. The Hydra and HPA are obviously underpriced and verging on broken.

ivrg
23-03-2010, 01:27
When people are lauging at beastmen i think they are really laughing at GW.
I get the feeling that confidence is low right now in GW and thier products.
Prices, unbalanced armies, some bad models or no models at all.

And then came beastmen and was not much of a hit.. Although i would not call the book awfull, it was not very impressing either.

Loki73
23-03-2010, 02:24
Yeah scary part is that 8th ed will not fix much if the rumors are true.

Stegadeth
23-03-2010, 02:26
I look forward to crushing people like this with my Beastmen army in the near future.

I believe you do and will. Honestly, I played them to a minor victory at best, and what really felt like a draw recently against my Lizardmen army. Bestigors with a Banner of Outrage make mince of front ranks. I had some chew through Saurus Warriors like they were nothing and then blow through into my Temple Guard bunker with Slann. I lost my general that game. It was rough. Of course, next time Bestigors will get all of the love my magic phase can offer, so maybe they aren't so bad after all. They made a nasty surprise the first time, to be sure.

Loki73
23-03-2010, 02:31
I put my genral there. I actually rolled double 1's. They racked a good combat rez from banner captures. Bestigors that is.

ChaosVC
23-03-2010, 02:37
How intelligent and restrained are Minotaurs? They may have a tendency to lose them.

Then again, how intelligent and restrain is a goatman or a lesser one? I really don't think your point is valid there really...:eyebrows:

ChaosVC
23-03-2010, 02:39
I think you capture the point very well. I totally agree. I saw an beastman army totally destroy a skaven army last saturday. The list is very strong although slightly gimmicky.

But then, that was a game between a veteran using beastman and a mostly newbie playing skaven. Not enough to prove anything IMO.

Darkspear
23-03-2010, 04:45
But then, that was a game between a veteran using beastman and a mostly newbie playing skaven. Not enough to prove anything IMO.

If a veteren can beat a newbie with a weaker army then it is fine as the beastman army is not hopeless, skill do matters. Vice versa...If a newbie beats a veteren with an army that the newbie is totally new to, then something is wrong.

Let me give an example, although it is not exactly a fair one. I once used this army (which I have never used before) and fought the VC tournament army of the best player in my gaming group. I totally destroyed his force with minimum casualties. It really feels WRONG.

And some people may have guessed it...I was using Daemons of Chaos :) .

ChaosVC
23-03-2010, 05:03
If a veteren can beat a newbie with a weaker army then it is fine as the beastman army is not hopeless, skill do matters. Vice versa...If a newbie beats a veteren with an army that the newbie is totally new to, then something is wrong.

Let me give an example, although it is not exactly a fair one. I once used this army (which I have never used before) and fought the VC tournament army of the best player in my gaming group. I totally destroyed his force with minimum casualties. It really feels WRONG.

And some people may have guessed it...I was using Daemons of Chaos :) .

Yep skill does matter, which is why a learning player getting beaten by a veteran between an army which is not (skaven)overpowered and an army which alots only think it is underpowered(beastman) does not prove much to begin with.

DOC is an exception and your are right on the fact that its a poor and unfair example because the former is already proven overpowered to begin with.

Jagosaja
23-03-2010, 09:39
Did you really just ask how HE deal with chariots?

Yes, High Elves can deal with chariots with S7, but only in two ways, either with a Star Dragon or with a Star Lance. If you commit any of these two on chasing 80 points worth chariots, you already are losing. To sacrifice three chariots just to keep your Dragon out of play is a good trade for me. On the other hand, consecutive charges from three chariots can put a dent in anything.

Any army can deal with any other army, that is not the question here. It is just that Daemons are over the top, Beastmen are not. But they are ok, far from being in lower tier. I cannot prove it, I can just claim it based on my experience. I am not a top tier player, I am there in the middle, sometimes near the bottom, sometimes very close to the upper tier. Playing with competent players who have good strategies when playing, I believe that Beastmen can be excellent in at least two phases (movement and combat) while decent in one (magic, if you choose Lore of Beasts), and below average in remaining two (psychology and shooting). It puts them above lower tier, especially if you take in mind that you can deny many negative effects of psychology if you play well.

Beastmen are quite different compared to the previous edition. But they are good. Not amazing, awesome or broken, but good. In the hands of a good general they can win any tourney. I may not be able to, but I know players who could. Remember that guy who won tournaments with Wood Elven army mostly consisting of Glade Riders?

Condottiere
23-03-2010, 11:57
Chariots are only dangerous if they manage to bring their charge home; high manoeuvre armies can pre-empt them, so it might not be necessary for S7, it could easily be Silver Helms.

Jagosaja
23-03-2010, 12:20
That is true, but it seems to me that Beastmen are at the top tier of manoeuvreable armies, far above High Elves. High Elves have M8, but Beastmen have ambushing and ambushing-skirmishing core units that are very cheap, Harpies and a flying Monster. I can see only Wood Elves compete with Beastmen in movement phase, or maybe Skink heavy Lizardmen.

Look, I don't want to be a lawyer for Beastmen, they are not even my primary army (I run VC) but I cannot deny they are good. It is not fair not to give them any credit just because we are disappointed with the way they look and behave now.

Lordy
23-03-2010, 18:04
You do realise HE also have chariots which have better movement than Beastmen chariots right?
That's not mention D3 wounding bolt throwers with BS4 wounding on 2's or Great Eagles.

They also have access to Lores which stops chariots, HE really don't need to worried about Chariots, the Jabberwocky is the only thing in the Beastbook that would worry me but even then it will be Bolt Throwered for being a large target.

The SkaerKrow
23-03-2010, 18:20
You do realise HE also have chariots which have better movement than Beastmen chariots right?
That's not mention D3 wounding bolt throwers with BS4 wounding on 2's or Great Eagles.

They also have access to Lores which stops chariots, HE really don't need to worried about Chariots, the Jabberwocky is the only thing in the Beastbook that would worry me but even then it will be Bolt Throwered for being a large target.Assuming that those Bolt Throwers hadn't been eaten by Ambushing Herds. Assuming that the Jabberslythe hasn't been kept out of LoS with terrain placement. Assuming that the High Elf Chariots hadn't been splintered to pieces by a well placed rock from a Cygor.

Warhammer isn't played in a vacuum. There are moves, there are counter moves. Tracing a line from Point A to Point B isn't nearly as easy when the other guy's trying to set your pen on fire.

Jagosaja
23-03-2010, 20:54
As I said, High Elves ARE probably better than Beastmen as it is now. But that does not make Beastmen worthless.

You know, we can go in circles: If you are shooting with your BThrowers at my chariots, you are not shooting at my Ghorgons or my Minotaurs, which will mince through your army. But your Dragon princes can demolish my Minotaurs when they flank charge them. But my ambushers will divert your Dragon Princes. But your Swordmasters will destroy my ambushers. But my chariots will devour you Swordmasters. But your Bolt Throwers will shoot down my chariots. If you are shooting with your BThrowers at my chariots, you are not shooting at my Ghorgons or my Minotaurs, which will mince through your army...

And so on. The only problem, as Mr. SkaerKrow has kindly pointed out, plans don't always work out as you planned and just because one unit is better on paper than the other does not mean the other will lose.

BTW, Beastmen also have the access to that lore, and with Herdstone they can cast it easier than High Elves can.

And I do realise HE have chariots, but we have CHEAP CORE CHARIOTS, and you have to waste Special slots to gain any. I think Beastmen are at an advantage there.

Lordy
23-03-2010, 21:40
We can indeed go around in circles, i was just saying as Both a HE and Beastmen player i know the HE are way in front of Beasts, which is abit worrying as HE have dropped down the ladder loads with all the other newer books.

Harwammer
23-03-2010, 23:29
We can indeed go around in circles, i was just saying as Both a HE and Beastmen player i know the HE are way in front of Beasts, which is abit worrying as HE have dropped down the ladder loads with all the other newer books.

I'm not too fussed with HE anymore with my beastmen. For the 6th ed BoC list charging ASF high elves was like running into a food blender and there was absolutely no way of out ranging them. Chariots were the only things that could put down much threat but were easily killed. Surely HE players felt like they were kicking a puppy when fighting old BoC. Now the chariots have been nerfed and the mortal/beasts/daemons system has been abolished I don't feel so bad spamming those cruddy little carts. Minotaurs getting impact hits and access to shields is also nice.

Its good to have some new tools (including improved ranged ability) to deal with high elves. They were my most hated opponent with the old BoC list.

ChaosVC
24-03-2010, 02:58
actually, convetional armies like HE and empire will have their hands full against beastman but not melee base armies. Beastman, is actually quite a specialise army like its WOC cousins being less elite but with more tricks up the seelves. They are only out classed man for man against WOC in a direct confrontation. But I am interested to see how they fair against skaven armies with furnace, PCBs and HPAs. In theory, ambush rules can potenially put skaven rank and file in a tight position with units coming from either flanks and rear. But can the beast man front lines deal with HPA and skaven magic before those things happen?

Jind_Singh
24-03-2010, 16:38
i think that there is actually a lot of depth to this army - its not as bad as people make it out to, its just no one knows how to unleash the inner beast (sorry, bad pun!).

I have been doing a lot of theory hammer with my mate, as he has beasts and I am starting them....

Magic

this is their secret in this edition of their armybook.

take a:

level 4 bray - lore of beasts
level 2 - lore of beasts
level 2 - lore of wild, chariot
level 2 - lore of wild, chariot

You could even take a herdstone if needed deploy it full distance into your own deployment zone


The lore of beasts will allow you to stop enemy monstors/cav from moving, at the same time your 2 shamans in chariots could be on a nice flank with about 4 other chariots - they beast surge every turn to move D6" plus 1 - so if the spell is played twice thats 2D6 plus 2" of movement. The 2 shamans with lore of beasts can use their movement spells to get you monstors into combat - imagine a chaos spawn (who is nerfed in WoC but is a really viable option for beastman armies), the 4 shamans could be deployed centre stage with the herdstone and the spawn - move the 2 lore of wild shamans so they are 6" forwards of the herdstone, let them rip out 2 beastsurge spells, so the spawn move 2D6 + 2", in addition to their 2D6 random movement, and then hit them with lore of beasts - the beast hunts - and you might move another 2D6 into combat!
So situational? Yeah, it takes combos to pull this off, but it does give you a level of depth and tactics to the army - beastman magic is not offensive, but designed to give you an edge in movement, and ultimatly movement is key in warhammer. you could also barrel one of your monstors forwards with the combination of spells I was talking about....

gors are ok, their low str is their downfall and so is their lack of armour, but they are WS4 which is not to be overlooked - v's most normal troops they will hit on 3's, and with additional hand weapon, and ranked 6 wide with a champ thats an impressive 13 str 3 attacks, and they are T4 - god forbid if anything hits them back though! But this is were the natural support of the army starts to break in, they arre backed by chariots, razorgors, minoutaurs (though they are too expesnive in points for my taste).
Enemy will have a tough time seeing you thanks to your warhounds, screens of ungor raiders.
you can pin the enemey down with 4 chaos spawn rare choices, AND you can take the special character who allows more spawn to be generated each turn.
You can take special character who is son of morislab and throw down some unexpected stone thrower shots
While the power level of the beastman is not amazing, it is not to be scoffed at. I think once we find our footing with them, they will be no worse than anyone else, and able to hold their own - but v's a few armies they may struggle - but such is the life of warhammer anyway!

Fredrik
25-03-2010, 21:34
I seriously question the judgement of some of you. Beastmen clearly have issues that make them to much dependent on dice rolls to make them serious contenders to compete.

Sure they can do good games and bring competition to some lists but in the long run thier success is way more dependant on making just to many Ld test on Ld 6 and 7 to be astable army.

Consider we need to dubble up on anything we want a reasnoble chance to charge anything we want to combo charge with beast (and yes most of the time we need to set up combi charges to win the combats). Thus instead of, like most of th ecompetetive lists, setting up 2 units for combo charging we need 3-4 units against anything that cause fear/and or terror. (50% chance of making the charge just isnīt good enough). This is the sole biggest error they made with beast.

Sure I would also have liked to se a better/broader/cheaper range of magic items. Better/cheaper magic and a small general price decreese to get the Beastmen competetive.

The really sad part is thet they today are a bit to far behind the newer lists to make it durable between two generals of equal competence.

As a background, I have played 10 ish games with the new beast. I have won most but against players I never otherwise have troubble with (have tried most armies during my 17 years of Warhammering), but with beastmen I really had to bring an A game against these opponents. From a meta gaming point, a playing experince (with the new beastmen) and from a theory point of view the new beast are a waek army.

My next move is to try and face Beastmen, and see if the exploitabillity against them is as devestating as i belive (to even further strengthen my experiance of them). I will get back to you with this as soon as I get to try it out against some experianced generals.

Malorian
25-03-2010, 21:38
Best throw-away units in the game... check
Some of the hardest hitting units in the game... check
The ability to take magic defense... check

Nothing else matters. They are fine and any good general should do well with them.

tw1386
25-03-2010, 21:49
I'll tell you guys this that I've had ALOT more success with the beastmen than most peopel give them credit for. They really aren't bad and should be mid-to upper-mid tier if you really insist on using this shoddy system. Once you stop looking at their weakness, which isn't all that much, just big leadership issues and no ward / as, but we have such high toughness around the board that I don't find it to be that big of an issue.

Spread the frenzy around with slaughterer's call, and the large selection of fear causing units or terror isn't that big of a deal, if it all. Yes, our monsters are expensive, but my God are they are disgusting. Stubborn ldrship 10 t6 w6 monster with 4+ killing blow at ws4... that's just wrong. Who cares if the Hellpit Abom is cheaper? Stop whining and play with what you were given. You either play Beastmen or you don't. Our army is built around the monsters, not the monsters around the army. These things plus our characters are our Bloodthirster / dragon killer.

I have played in two tournaments with the new beastmen, the first one I got tied for first and lost the prize due to me not having them painted. My second tournament, I got to the top table by completely massacring my first two opponents, but alas I got my butt handed to me the last game.

They were lizardmen, he, deamons, woc, de, and chaos dwarves.

Alltaken
25-03-2010, 22:14
I believe they don't move enough, as a Lizzie player their movement scares the death of me. Yet I've seen some nice tactics out there that can help me deal with them. Other armies, say ASF elves seem to have the upper hand. Well I might feel sorry for dwarves also, ambush might really kick them hard.

I believe cav units will wreck them appart. Also ambusher don't so effective effective to me. LD seems to hurt them more than it should. To easy an army to cower.

The hard hitters haven't got ambush or don't move that much. Only big big beasts have certain chances to cross the table more or less unhurt. But they can be easily tarpitted, except for Jabber. I don't really see them coming victorious against a match against VC's

grumbaki
25-03-2010, 22:42
Well, I haven't played them yet, but they seem solid to me. My Empire would have a hard time facing them (no Steam Tanks or War Altars). I'd expect to lose all of my artillery quickly (flayers/ambushers) and with so many high priority targets it'd be hard to take them out in time. Then again, both are (in my mind) mid tier armies, so I'd expect it to come down to skill/luck.

From hearing all of the arguments, and reading through the book, I think that GW got the beastmen right.

Stegadeth
25-03-2010, 23:31
As a background, I have played 10 ish games with the new beast. I have won most

This pretty much says it all for me, but makes the opposite point you were trying to make. They are a good army and take a bit of skill to use effectively. From where I sit, that sounds like the sort of balance all armies could use: play well, win - play poorly, lose.

Gork or Possibly Mork
26-03-2010, 01:32
I think if people would go semi horde with them backed by plenty of chariots and a few heavy hitters they would be feared instead of a laughing stock.

I think too many people are trying to be elite with them taking all the big monsters and expensive heavy hitters and then not having enough for plenty of dirt cheap redirecters, chariots and a few large cheapish blocks.

Don't try to be uber with them.

Wish I could get not counting towards core chariots for my orcs.

ChaosVC
26-03-2010, 02:40
I don't think most people would have fun fighting an army full of chariots but then I don't think anyone who actually field all chariot core wanted his oponent to have fun...

Enigmatik1
26-03-2010, 03:00
I don't think anyone who actually field all chariot core wanted his oponent to have fun...

Why on earth would you think that? I'm slightly offended! :p

ChaosVC
26-03-2010, 03:03
Why on earth would you think that? I'm slightly offended! :p

I don't kown....*squashed*...oh wait I think I know now...

Jind_Singh
26-03-2010, 10:17
If I DID have to think hard about gripes about the book they would be:

1) The main 3 monsters should have been priced at 250pts each, not 275pts.
2) The Chaos Gifts - since in this book they made a good choice and said 1 per army (cough-cough, looking at you DoC), the writer should have at least written in a few more gifts for variates sake!
3) Beastigors should have been base leadership 8

THAT'S IT!!

Yeah there's other things but then whats the fun in a perfect army book - look at DoC, the game designer did a great job if your looking at a truly balanced book of death dealing!

Beastmen is a great army book, and the only one of 3 Chaos armies I'm playing (I have all 3, but these beastmen will see the light of day!)

Jagosaja
26-03-2010, 12:34
I will go so far as to say just some monsters could have done it with a small price reduction, namely Cygor or Jabberslythe. Ghorgon at 275 is just fine. The gifts are OK, but you are completely right about Bestigors, they should have made them Ld 8, to make more sense taking them. But the book as it is, while not perfect, is great. At least by me.

jesusjohn
27-03-2010, 21:53
I love my lovly balanced BM army book, and it is. It's one of those weird moments where it throws those books that aren't balanced or have one or two units that are badly thought out/undercosted into the spot light. Problem is we all know about those problems so it makes BM look weak, they arn't. We just have any point and click units (well other than a tooled up Doombull!) They have huge potential and i know we all miss some of the character of Beastherds, but i think we will over the coming months learn to love 'em. Weirdly over on herdstone i'm not seeing a huge amount of loses in the battle reports. We can't be that bad then!

skullkandy
29-03-2010, 16:15
Try playing OnG and watch your hopes and dreams go down the tube when your unit suddenly doesn't feel like fighting that turn, lmao. But seriously, they are not as bad as everyone makes them sound. They are new and people are still figuring them out which will take a little time. One of the people in my gaming group has them and in his first game with the new army book they exceeded all expectations that are gotten from reading any online forum. I'm not saying they are up there with skaven, vc, and the like, but they do deserve some credit. Minotaurs are pretty nasty.

They are as bad as everyone is saying.

No offence but it sounds like you may not have read the book. I thought the same thing, assuming it was the usual whining about not getting a first tier book. Then I bought the new book and read it. It really is that bad. compair almost any unit to an equal stat line unit in another army and you'll think something is fishy, look at our rare section and you'll laugh, read the magic items section and you'll choke with how insanely bad it is.

A huge part of warhammer is correctly equipping your heroes to acomplish various combos and goals. The magic items section in the beastmen book is a joke. Everything is about 20pts too expensive, there isn't one single ward save, flaming weapon, or anything that combos.

The other aspect of fantasy that plays a huge role is leadership. Beastmen have the absolute worst leadership in the entire game no question. Before you say "but O&G, empire, or skaven..." Every one of those armies have tools to deal with leadership, they all have built in leadership managers. Beastmen don't. No item to increase generals leadership, no rank bonus on leadership, no big ones rule, nothing at all to help us deal with our low leadership. Hell, everything panics when a screening dog gets shot.

The SkaerKrow
29-03-2010, 16:56
*Snip*Play (hell, even watch) some games with the new book, and try again.

Jind_Singh
29-03-2010, 17:15
Yeah, I agree with The SkaerKrow - this book is NOT as bad as everyone says, hell its not even a bottom tier book - this sits firmly in the middle of the pack and will stay there.

For the most part people will never agree as you need a solid understanding of how the game works, be a good tactics person, and REALLY know how to pull all the elements in the Beastmen book to make it work.

They will never be an easy army to play, but once your down with them they should do your win/lose/draw record plenty good.

H33D
29-03-2010, 17:30
I have played Beastmen for several years, they are far far lower down the ladder than my High Elves are.
Come to england and crush me with Beastmen and i'll buy you a pint!

I would love that! Are you being serious because man that would be fun!

Lordy
29-03-2010, 17:33
Ofcourse im serious, infact i shall buy you a pint for each Beastmen game you beat me and i'll let you buy me one for every game i beat you.

I'm going to be getting very very drunk :D

H33D
29-03-2010, 17:45
Ofcourse im serious, infact i shall buy you a pint for each Beastmen game you beat me and i'll let you buy me one for every game i beat you.

I'm going to be getting very very drunk :D

Sounds great! :P

So anyway, I shall put my 2 cents in here. This is coming from a Dwarf player who just started to pick up beastmen.

I have 2 losses vs WoC, 2 Wins (TK and Skaven), and 1 Draw (Lizards).

What I absolutely love about the Beastmen book, is that everything seems to fit an army full of Beasts. They have:

-lack of armor
-low leadership
-high mobility
-disdain for fancy magic equipment
-high strength
-frenzy
-gooberly monsters
and
-a pack-leader mentality

When you realize this about them and play accordingly, they really shine.
Don't like low-LD? Neither do I.

I put a Gorebull BSB with Banner of Beasts and Gnarled hide Heavy Armor Shield in a unit of 16 Gor 2HW FC. I put another Gorebull with Axes of Khorgor, Uncanny Senses Heavy Armor in a unit of 16 Gor 2HW Fc.

I bring Bestigors for my scroll caddy and Beastlord with Stonecrusher Mace (S8 is nice... esp. with primal fury).

There you go. 3 Units that have frenzy or are LD9. Screen them with some hounds and/or raiders and you are fine. Bring some harpies as well and march block the enemy to set up charges better and whomp some war machines.

Magic Items? Yeah they are kinds poo but when your Lvl4 Wizard takes 2D6 S4 hits from my 25 point Stone of Spite... at least it is a crappy item, right?

The point is, they are an army where the units by themselves are kinda icky, but only in a few places. When combined with characters, smartly used items, and wise tactics, they can really be the bane of just about any other army out there.

BTW I put a shaman in a chariot in my game vs Skaven and whomped HPA by charging it. How? I don't know. Luck of the dice. But it sure felt good when he rolled a 1.

skullkandy
29-03-2010, 17:45
Play (hell, even watch) some games with the new book, and try again.

care to offer any actual points, opinions, or ground to stand on. Or would that rip too many holes in your argument?

bar the arguably high cost of our core troops, the changes to ambush, and the complete destruction of centigors.....all of those could possibly have a slim chance of being arguable.

but as for the stupid cost of our rares, the laughable items list, and the complete lack of even a single form of leadership management for one of the lowest leadership armies in the game (while every one of the other low leadership armies has some special rule to help with leadership) any player who is honest will agree the beasts got kicked in the groin on all of those.

This is only one tiny snapshot of how bad the book is but it sums it up well with a great example of something very basic that was completely botched.
name one other army that doesn't have an item with a ward save and an item with flaming attacks........

The SkaerKrow
29-03-2010, 18:29
care to offer any actual points, opinions, or ground to stand on. Or would that rip too many holes in your argument?What argument? You don't know what you're talking about, because you don't have any experience with Beastmen beyond reading their book. When last I looked, it was Warhammer Armies: Beastmen, not Theoryhammer Armies: Beastmen. When you actually have some evidence to support your observations, they might actually have some value. As they stand, they're uninformed at best, and trolling at worst.

snowywlf
29-03-2010, 21:44
Khorne Dogs, Khorned Beef, Khreamed Khorne, Khornemeal Muffins, Khorne Flakes, Khorne Bread, Khornish Hens, Khorne Syrup, Khandy Khorne, Khorne on the Khob...

-The Ultimate Mono-Khorne (Grocery) List

Khorned Hash, Popkhorne, Akhorne, Khorne Meal, Khornucopia, Khorne Nuts, Pepperkhorne.


On topic: I agree that Theoryhammer wise, Beasts are impaired. In actual play they are very dice reliant. You'll be making a ton of LD tests (hello Primal Fury), Ambush rolls, Impact rolls, Rerolls (Hatred), etc. Is this unique to this army? No. The issue is that a lot of the army's actual power comes down to these 'extra' rolls.

So we've seen some people saying that they are great. Some people say they are awfully weak. Well, that's the reliance on serious randomization. But dont all armies rely on dice? Absolutely. But Beasts take the core reliance on dice and then add another level of dice reliance to it.

So, in my opinion, if the Beasts roll well on all their 'extra' dice rolls, they are a good army. They could match High Elves in power pretty comfortably. But when their 'extra' dice rolls are bad, they perform as a low tier army. Please note, this isnt taking into account the standard randomness of Warhammer (combat rolls, magic rolls, etc.). Just the additional layer of random rolls that the Beast book has built in.


Now, if you take out some of the random elements (say Primal Fury and Ambush) and instead increase each unit appropriately, you have a pretty decent army. But it loses any sense of 'unique' of course. Since those rules are dice based (and able to outright Fail) you sometimes perform well and sometimes perform poorly.

Am I off my rocker or do you see some truth here? And no, I dont think this is The Issue with the army. Just an underlying issue that gets glossed over a lot.

Harwammer
29-03-2010, 23:03
the complete lack of even a single form of leadership management for one of the lowest leadership armies in the game (while every one of the other low leadership armies has some special rule to help with leadership)

Come now! While you do have some legitimate concerns about beastmen the above statement can only be an outright lie considering you claim to have read the book. Beastmen have the ability to make several entire units frenzied. This clearly is a form of leadership management. Others are available (fear causing infantry/chariots, terror weapon, even Ld 9 bubble).

Please don't overstate your points, it will make everyone treat you like you don't know what you are talking about, as exemplified by other forum members responses to your posts.

If you feel you have a strong point then state it at face value and let the truth speak for itself. Where is the point in having a lie speak for a truth?

Dr.Mercury
30-03-2010, 03:22
Personally (and I have stated this over and over again on Herdstone) I LOVE the army.
I have played 12 games with them so far and have better than a 50% win record.
You may think 50% is nothing special, but relearning the army has something to do with that.
(and my ability to roll box cars for every leadership check in a 2 turn period)
They are a powerhouse late game army. They can take a punishment early game, but as long as you make your leadership checks for panic, or make yourself frenzied, you will lay some hurt on your opponent late game.
Gorghon is worth every one of his 275 points.
Doombull is AMAZING! Yesterday, him and a chariot completely wiped out a unit of 15 blackguard with a bsb in one round of combat!
Centigors are great with the 2 attacks and a 4+ armor save

I like (don't love) the ambush rules.
Minotaurs are whirling blenders of death

Bottom line, your mileage may vary, but I think the book has a lot of tactical options, and it provides for a challenging game. Sorry if you think it sucks just because it is not an "auto win button".

Charistoph
30-03-2010, 05:52
The other aspect of fantasy that plays a huge role is leadership. Beastmen have the absolute worst leadership in the entire game no question. Before you say "but O&G, empire, or skaven..." Every one of those armies have tools to deal with leadership, they all have built in leadership managers. Beastmen don't. No item to increase generals leadership, no rank bonus on leadership, no big ones rule, nothing at all to help us deal with our low leadership. Hell, everything panics when a screening dog gets shot.

Which army book you looking at, Beastmen or Beast of Chaos? Beast's Ld got a buff with this Army Book.

With the exception of the Ungors and animals, everything is Ld 7 or higher. Look at the Empire book and you will see the exact same thing. Ask any Empire player, their leadership is SOOO terrible that they're unplayable? How do they deal with it?

My biggest beefs against this new book is the loss of the Raider rule and Marks. A few other unit tweeks would have been nice, too (Bestigor shields *cough*), but not absolutely necessary.

As for the magic equipment, at least they are coherent with the army instead of relying on equipment from another codex that they lost access to.

decker_cky
30-03-2010, 15:34
the complete destruction of centigors

This is how I know you haven't tried the list. Centigors I was wary of but tried because I had a well painted unit. They're incredibly hard hitting (as in chaos knight hard) and fast. They usually get the jump on something and cause a lot of destruction, and when they don't do that, they usually draw a lot of attention in keeping them out of the game. Well worth their points.


but as for the stupid cost of our rares,

Ghorgon and Jabber are worth the points unless you compare them to the badly underpriced units. I need some more practice with the Cygor to judge it.


and the complete lack of even a single form of leadership management for one of the lowest leadership armies in the game (while every one of the other low leadership armies has some special rule to help with leadership) any player who is honest will agree the beasts got kicked in the groin on all of those.

Ld9 general and frenzy you can give to a key unit?

barret4thewin
30-03-2010, 16:27
TBH I am glad that we got an AB which doesn't ooze manipulation and scream broken. I think the army can be very competitive, but also could be an insight into 8th edition.....