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Shadow_Steed
21-03-2010, 16:29
Greetings fellow wargamers!

So a while ago I read the Malus Darkblade novels and fell in love with Malus and the Dark Elves, as a result of this love I ordered a large amount of Dark Elf models. Later I found out that DE is seen in gaming terms as cheesy and to good to be fun to play against.

Thus I wonder if there are any DE lists that would not be considered cheesy? What units is cheesy etc? Give examples of lists that are friendly etc!

Cheers!

Forgotmytea
21-03-2010, 16:35
Don't take any Hydras.

Don't take any Black Guard.

Don't take the Ring of Hotek.

Don't take the Pendant of Khaleth.

:) At least, they're 4 of the main principles my Dark Elves go by, and as a rule I try to avoid making an army list 'overpowered'. I think a large part of why Dark Elves are seen as a cheesy army is because of some particularly nasty builds (dual Hydras and lord on dragon with the pendant, or sorceress spam), rather than any individual units (hydras excepted, of course :p).

Eta
21-03-2010, 16:38
I'd stay away from black dragons, double hydras, black guard with ASF banner, ring of hotek, pendant lord (on a sorcereress this item is pretty much OK) and perhaps the S7 throwing star assassin.

Greetings
Eta

Sygerrik
21-03-2010, 16:39
Black Guard are fine as long as you don't take the Banner of Hag Graef. In fact, most of the broken stuff in the list is in the magic items section.

Things to avoid:
1) Multiple Hydras
2) Lots of shooting (generally, the shootier your list is, the more cheesy people will call it)
3) Pendant of Khaeleth, Ring of Hotek, Banner of Hag Graef
4) Units of shades larger than 8 or so
5) Dragons
6) Manbane + Rending Stars combo

Havock
21-03-2010, 16:44
Black Guard is fine, even with the ASF banner, just don't chuck in 3 characters and an assassin.

A single hydra is fine, two are not.
Use common sense, if it seems to be too good for what it costs, it probably is :p

Tae
21-03-2010, 17:05
Black Guard are fine as long as you don't take the Banner of Hag Graef. In fact, most of the broken stuff in the list is in the magic items section.

Things to avoid:
1) Multiple Hydras
2) Lots of shooting (generally, the shootier your list is, the more cheesy people will call it)
3) Pendant of Khaeleth, Ring of Hotek, Banner of Hag Graef
4) Units of shades larger than 8 or so
5) Dragons
6) Manbane + Rending Stars combo

The Pendant of Khaleth is fine, so long as it's on a sorceress. When it becomes an issue is when it's on someone who has a 1+ AS already.

Bodysnatcher
21-03-2010, 17:10
The Pendant of Khaleth is fine, so long as it's on a sorceress. When it becomes an issue is when it's on someone who has a 1+ AS already.

And regenerate, standing next to the guy with the Ring of Hotek.

Sygerrik
21-03-2010, 22:06
Black Guard is fine, even with the ASF banner, just don't chuck in 3 characters and an assassin.


lies even with just one character in that unit it becomes mind numbingly frustrating to deal with.

Stinkfoot
21-03-2010, 23:39
I think all of the problems with Dark Elves lie in combinations you can make with their items and units. As has been stated, the Pendant of Khaleth is only a problem on a fighter character, Black Guard only get silly with the ASF Banner, and Hydras are only problems when in pairs. DEs also have access to standard-issue cheesy stuff like dragons.

Most of the things people call cheesy in the DE book are really just underpriced (the exception I would say is the Pendant of Khaleth, which is too good at almost any price and really ought to be an Arcane Item), and it's very hard to fight against an army with multiple super-efficient units, such as Hydras or BG. Nobody is going to hate you for taking some of the efficient choices in the book - that's basically the art of army building - but DEs have so many efficient, spamable choices that I feel like honorable players need to voluntarily balance out their lists and that some things that are sub-optimal.

Shadow_Steed
21-03-2010, 23:50
Thank you for the answers!

I think I will build my army like this:

40 Corsairs in 2 units.

18 Repeater crossbowmen.

10 Warriors

12 Cold one Knights in 2 units.

One hydra

2 assasins

1 sorcerer and one master, without pendant of Khaeleth.

This is the stuff I have right now, so maybe Ill expand with harpies and executioners (for awesome models).

shredshredxx
21-03-2010, 23:51
go khainite!!

and look at georc's log for inspiration!!

mythic77
21-03-2010, 23:53
I tend to avoid Characters in Shade units and Black Guard units, multiple Hydras and gunlines.

Really dark elves aren't a problem unless you go overboard in a direction.

Examples include
Dual Hydra/Dragon/Manticore Monster Mast lists(Just having two of these is pushing it against alot of Armies)
ASF Black guard with a Bunch of Characters
Shadestar (A large shade unit full of Charecters)
Gunline of just repeater crossbows and bolt throwers and shades.

Stinkfoot
21-03-2010, 23:53
Thank you for the answers!

I think I will build my army like this:

40 Corsairs in 2 units.

18 Repeater crossbowmen.

10 Warriors

12 Cold one Knights in 2 units.

One hydra

2 assasins

1 sorcerer and one master, without pendant of Khaeleth.

This is the stuff I have right now, so maybe Ill expand with harpies and executioners (for awesome models).

I don't think anybody will be complaining about that. It sounds like a fun list though. Corsairs are pretty cool, even if I would say they're not as good as warriors.

mythic77
21-03-2010, 23:55
I don't think anybody will be complaining about that. It sounds like a fun list though. Corsairs are pretty cool, even if I would say they're not as good as warriors.

Corsairs aren't a good unit if your trying to win by they are fun and have great models.

Shadow_Steed
21-03-2010, 23:57
Hehe, I love the Corair models and with a raiding/pirate Darkblade army in mind they are perfect=)

The SkaerKrow
22-03-2010, 00:06
Just use common sense. If a combination of A, B and C seem like they add up to create a nigh unstoppable unit/character, then you're probably better off avoiding that combination. In all honestly, there's nothing in the Dark Elf book that is "cheese" on its own, it's all about combining certain magic items, characters and units to create armies on the table that perform well above the sum of their parts.

A word of warning: There are a lot of people who outright revile Dark Elves, and will tell you that every single thing in the book is cheesy. Just ignore them. Design a list that believe will be fun for both you and your opponent, and you'll be fine.

mythic77
22-03-2010, 00:41
Just use common sense. If a combination of A, B and C seem like they add up to create a nigh unstoppable unit/character, then you're probably better off avoiding that combination. In all honestly, there's nothing in the Dark Elf book that is "cheese" on its own, it's all about combining certain magic items, characters and units to create armies on the table that perform well above the sum of their parts.

A word of warning: There are a lot of people who outright revile Dark Elves, and will tell you that every single thing in the book is cheesy. Just ignore them. Design a list that believe will be fun for both you and your opponent, and you'll be fine.

After all, everyone knows that all the cheese is in the Deamons armybook

jk.. its really all about what combos you use that can make a list cheesy or not.

ChaosVC
22-03-2010, 03:00
what is cheesy now for DE.

shade star units with asf banner bsb and arsesassins manebane throwing stars.

dual hydra or/and dula hyrda with a dragon lord!!! Yay!

Ring of hot~ack on a unit champion.

pendant of you can't kill me unless I roll a one and you hit really hard.

Though some may say the hatred is too good for DE, I think its just fine unless you are a highelf haha.:D

One thing, I can never understand why reaper crossbows have armour piercing, even the real thing can't do that. Must be some kind of DE superior technologhy...

Kalandros
22-03-2010, 03:27
Especially seeing as how their Repeater Crossbows have LESS strength than a regular crossbow even by the rules of the game... its just so odd, it does make them much more powerful than they should be.

mythic77
22-03-2010, 06:18
Its probably because they wanted to put the crossbow at STR 3.5.
They are basically crossbows who don't get the +1 to wound for STR4 but they do get the -1 to AS.

KalEf
22-03-2010, 08:30
I like to consolidate assassins (ToD, RoK, BL, Add hand) into something skirmishing and follow it around with a cauldron. Some times I throw in a witch bsb sometimes not. I hear noting but good things with this build. "what a sports man" :rolleyes: and "Thanks a lot" :eyebrows: So as long as you don't use the pendant and the banner and the hydra, I'm sure you'll be cheese free! :shifty:

elvinltl
22-03-2010, 09:33
I suggest you to visit www.druchii.net and take look at the forum. They have very detailed explanation and guides on Dark Elves.

I play Dark Elves as well and I strongly recommend you to just go with what you like. I mean to play a game to accomodate your opponent is outright stupid. Cheese or not is also subjective.

gambler@
22-03-2010, 21:45
totally agree with elvinltl.
you cannot make your army according to your opponents wishes.

brendel
22-03-2010, 21:58
totally agree with elvinltl.
you cannot make your army according to your opponents wishes.

I agree with elvinlti as well, I have faced these so called chessy lists before, might not beat them the first time around, but secound time round its a different matter.

GrogDaTyrant
22-03-2010, 23:10
My only major complaints about DE, is the Pendant of reverse Ward Save. It's cost is a little more than that of a 5+ ward-save item, yet it's superior in every way shape and form. It's not a problem on a sorceress, but (as mentioned by others) is downright ridiculous on a 1+ save 'fighty general' with/without Regen. The best way I've ever found to kill such a joker, is with Poison Wind Globes, or T-checks from plague-monk stuff.

IMHO, the reverse ward save should have either been an Arcane Item as someone mentioned, or doubled in point-cost.


Double hydras are mean, and some armies definitely have problems against them.
ASF Black Guard are also mean, but IMO not as bad as ASF WS6 HE Swordmasters.
And the Ring of Hotek does require the DE player to keep his wizards away from whoever has it.

ChaosVC
23-03-2010, 03:34
Its probably because they wanted to put the crossbow at STR 3.5.
They are basically crossbows who don't get the +1 to wound for STR4 but they do get the -1 to AS.

Trust me, a repeater crossbow have to sacrifice ALOT of strength for armour penatration for the ability to fire mutiple shots at a shot period of time due to the mechanics of the contraption. The real thing had to had its bolts tips soaked with poision to just kill someone or mainly use for siege defence, firing from the top of the wall with the help of gravity and massive volume of shots due to speed to deter the enemy. But then again...we are talking about fantasy here where everything and anything have can be possible.:p

VonUber
23-03-2010, 03:39
All this whining about the pendent guy, Why not just break his unit? Why put attacks on him when you can waste his unit? He issues a challenge, feed him a unit champion and lay waste to the unit with 4 ironguts in the flank and a tyrant with 3 ironguts in the front. Workes fro me:)

(I love my dark elves, but its allways fun to beat them with ogres)

ChaosVC
23-03-2010, 03:39
I agree with elvinlti as well, I have faced these so called chessy lists before, might not beat them the first time around, but secound time round its a different matter.

Because most player play with what they had and are not prepared for these extreme list during the first encounter, during the second encounter, they know what they are facing and they have in one way or another tailored their list against them. Not very fun IMO if the game becomes more of a tailor hammer, not that tailoring is all bad but most of the times, games are more fun without the need to resort to tailoring against certain built.

ooglatjama
23-03-2010, 03:43
I've always thought the pendant should have been renamed and made into light armor.

-Grimgorironhide-
23-03-2010, 04:18
Though Druchii are in the top three they can easily be taken to a more fun and friendly level by avoiding the following things (especially if they are used in conjunction with each other.)

-Double Hydra (Though underpriced, just one is all right)
-More than 2 units of RXB in 2000pts and under. I personally restrict myself to take a max of 1 per 1000pts.
-No Pendant on a fighty armoured character. (Sorcerers are fine)
-No ASF banner on BG
-No more than 15 shades per unit max.
-No ring of Hotek unless you can baalance it out ith taking good magic as well.
-No Black Dragon

cheers.

Darkspear
23-03-2010, 04:38
Trust me, a repeater crossbow have to sacrifice ALOT of strength for armour penatration for the ability to fire mutiple shots at a shot period of time due to the mechanics of the contraption. The real thing had to had its bolts tips soaked with poision to just kill someone or mainly use for siege defence, firing from the top of the wall with the help of gravity and massive volume of shots due to speed to deter the enemy. But then again...we are talking about fantasy here where everything and anything have can be possible.:p

Can you provide a source?

Based on this internet source, the crossbow's strength is not very impressive but it is not shabby either. http://www.arco-iris.com/George/chu-ko-nu.htm

Personally I feel that the crossbow should be relatively strong...at least greater strength than a shortbow. Based on the article, the weapon has the ability to disrupt the charge of large numbers of man which implies that the impact of the bolts is no pushover. While it is noted in many sources that poison is applied on to the crossbow, poison requires time to act (with the exception of certain types of poison in south america and africa which the Chinese have no access to) and thus it is unlikely that the poison will potent enough to stop the charge of huge number of men and horses. This implies that the repeating crossbow is strong enough (at least the strength of a shortbow) to stop a man in the charge...(and thus the S3).

With regards to the AP ability, earlier Druchii rumors states that the repeating crossbow has poison. I guess due to balance issues, it has been changed to AP. (Imagine most of the time a DE crossbow men needs 5+ to hit, it the poison rule is granted it would mean that 50% of the hits will be negating enemy toughness...scary!)

R-Love
23-03-2010, 05:12
All this whining about the pendent guy, Why not just break his unit? Why put attacks on him when you can waste his unit? He issues a challenge, feed him a unit champion and lay waste to the unit with 4 ironguts in the flank and a tyrant with 3 ironguts in the front. Workes fro me:)

(I love my dark elves, but its allways fun to beat them with ogres)

Because he's A) On a Dragon, or B) in a Black Guard Deathstar?

ChaosVC
23-03-2010, 05:21
Can you provide a source?

Based on this internet source, the crossbow's strength is not very impressive but it is not shabby either. http://www.arco-iris.com/George/chu-ko-nu.htm

Personally I feel that the crossbow should be relatively strong...at least greater strength than a shortbow. Based on the article, the weapon has the ability to disrupt the charge of large numbers of man which implies that the impact of the bolts is no pushover. While it is noted in many sources that poison is applied on to the crossbow, poison requires time to act (with the exception of certain types of poison in south america and africa which the Chinese have no access to) and thus it is unlikely that the poison will potent enough to stop the charge of huge number of men and horses. This implies that the repeating crossbow is strong enough (at least the strength of a shortbow) to stop a man in the charge...(and thus the S3).

With regards to the AP ability, earlier Druchii rumors states that the repeating crossbow has poison. I guess due to balance issues, it has been changed to AP. (Imagine most of the time a DE crossbow men needs 5+ to hit, it the poison rule is granted it would mean that 50% of the hits will be negating enemy toughness...scary!)

Didn't your source just said what I have said, including sacrificing strength for the ability of rapid fire and mainly use for wall defences?

Here is my chillie sauce if you want to have a look.

http://www.atarn.org/chinese/rept_xbow.htm

KalEf
23-03-2010, 07:12
I've always thought the pendant should have been renamed and made into light armor.

I actually thought they were going to errata it that way, and remove the "equal to" part... then it would just be a really really good magic item for 35 points. but no :(

Condottiere
23-03-2010, 09:15
As mentioned before, it's the combination of all the possible units and items that makes facing them difficult. If facing some aspects separately, it would be easier to confront them. However, the speed of their advance, and the capability of hitting from multiple angles at the same time and very early in the game makes isolating tough units problematic.