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Latro_
21-03-2010, 22:30
So with the new BA codex and the SW codex out do you all feel Chaos is starting to feel a bit unloved? Ofc no one has it as bad as DE or Necrons but does the once multi legion ruled fluff packed enemy of them imperium feel a little jaded now compared to the recent pimping of their younger less spiky brothers?

How many of you have swayed from the darkness for your MEQ fix into the light of loyal marines?

sigur
21-03-2010, 22:32
What does that have to do with codex BA and SW? It's nothing new that there are multiple SM codices and one CSM codex.

MadHatter
21-03-2010, 22:32
Chaos got several codex updates before both Blood Angels and Space Wolves even were considered. Rght now is other codices turn to shine. So chaos can sit on the side lines for another year.

Deff Mekz
21-03-2010, 22:36
Yeh they are unloved a bit, it's a shame really. Seriously though I would love to see books for my two favourite Legions, The Alpha Legion and The Night Lords.
However there's one thing I've learnt from GW and that is;

"To always expect the unexpected Space marine Codex" :D

blackcherry
21-03-2010, 22:36
Ok, before this can of worms is opened again, I will get in with a sensible answer. I'm a long time player of CSM. For now, just leave chaos with its two seperate codeci, demons and CSM.

If different design decisions are taken next time the books come up for a remake then there are several paths I hope they take. For now, I'm keeping stum till I (hopefully) get hold of the new Dark Eldar book, whenever that will come out.

Honestly I think it will all be fine. CSM were never really a faction that got a bazillion differet books ala the different SM factions. I'm happy with that.

sigur
21-03-2010, 22:37
Yeah, because codex SW and BA came totally out of the blue.

What are we discussing here again? That some people want to see Codex: Chaos Legions? If so, please have a look at the 200 threads on this topic from the past three something years.

Mannimarco
21-03-2010, 22:54
compared to the newer loyalist books the CSM one is beginning to show its age, jus flicking through the space wolf book and the CSM one you can clearly see the radical shift in design philosophy. Compared to the newer SM books the CSM looks more than a little bare

of course we must remember CSM came out when the philosophy was "less is more" and a lot of stuff was taken out (with very little to replace it) from the 3.5 dex (which I maintain to this day isnt as broken as a lot of what we see from todays books) where the newer books follow the philosophy of "turn it up to 11 and rip the knob off" with some of the rules and builds available

StormWulfen
21-03-2010, 23:47
Also I believe I read that C:CSM was supposed to "pave the way" for 5th ed codecies (rules layout ect), but because they realeased it before the 5th ed rules came out they decided not to put in some of the rules for 5th ed eg. relentless (I know that it says under the chaos terminator armour part on pg 86 that they can move/shoot/charge with heavy weapons ect but a lot of people don't seem to actually read through the codex and as a result never notice this.)

MadHatter
21-03-2010, 23:57
I agree the CSM's are showing age but lets see, I think Necrons and maybe Dark Eldar can call BS to this thinking. I do realize GW is going to put out what they want and when they want to to meet thier sales. But look how well the Orks sold after the new codex.

I did not think the 3.5 Chaos book was bad. Yea they could make thier uber power lords, but that left them with fewer models and a good gamer could compensate for this, especially if the oppenent was a regular.

Joewrightgm
22-03-2010, 00:24
I think that model-wise, Chaos could be due for some love. I mean, they waved the Demon Prince under our noses with the Warriors of Chaos in Fantasy and in Planet Strike.

dreadhead
22-03-2010, 00:41
Ah the age old question, are Chaos Space Marines unloved and unlucky?

Personally I can see why the old book needed an overhaul, but I'm still in two minds as to whether the route chosen was the right one. That said they're still a very competitive army with some of the best units in the game.

In addition there's plenty of scope for conversion, especially where the cult troops are concerned.

MadHatter
22-03-2010, 00:42
I think that model-wise, Chaos could be due for some love. I mean, they waved the Demon Prince under our noses with the Warriors of Chaos in Fantasy and in Planet Strike.

Again I think Necrons and dark eldar are going to scream foul, as the choas marines got a huge model rework and some cool new kits. terminator lord was good.

Noserenda
22-03-2010, 00:48
Arg, I swear to god if I win the lottery Ill bribe GW a vast sum of Money to write a new Chaos Codex.

Heres the Kicker, ill ensure its exactly the same as the current one only with a fluff section written by Matt Ward prefaced by "You brought this on yourselves you moany gits". :eek:


:angel:

*Edit* Yay 1000 posts :D

Joewrightgm
22-03-2010, 03:02
Again I think Necrons and dark eldar are going to scream foul, as the choas marines got a huge model rework and some cool new kits. terminator lord was good.

Well, I'm also a long time Necron player, and I'm saying that . . . ;)

I guess the thing is that Chaos has so much potential for models, especially with the rampant number of hybrid kits (I'm looking at you Havocs, Noise Marines and Thousand Sons . . . ) and one of the more popular troops in metal (Plague Marines), they have a lot of room to 'stretch'.

MEPHISTONSRAGE
22-03-2010, 03:03
I think this book did set the stage for all that followed. I also think that it is still a very viable book that works very well.
The Special Characters are still potent in their own right.
The troops choices are still hardcore. The elites can be configured to some mean combo's
and the fast attacks and heavy supports all have a role to play.

I miss the Daemon Princes of old, as the new ones are nice, but imo, sad shadows of glories past. I would have been happier if they made them elite 1-3 per choice.
The loss of the daemons, and the total generic nature of the new daemons and the Greater Daemons is rather just rather blah. I will confess, a well placed Greater Daemon possession can totally turn the tide of battle.

I run the Night Lords as my banner Chapter, and the Emperor Children as another.
No, I get no benefits from running any of the chapters or their pantheons, but
at least here locally, the Night Lords are a bane on everyones existence.
Would I like to see changes,yes, but i am content with things as they currently are.
I think the Dak Eldar deserve their time in the sun, and the Necrons do as well, though i find them to be a rather boring list and army at the moment. Don't get me going on the Inquisition. GW would break me if they were to redo those guys as viable forces.
Sooo, Chaos may need some love, but i still find them more than capable of beating the Marines and the Wolves, and here soon, probably the Blood Angels.
Just my 2 cents.

Creeping Dementia
22-03-2010, 05:30
I feel like my Sisters/Tau are a bit unloved, but I guess CSM are getting a bit aged too. For some reason I still have the mentality that they're a newer book (I realize they aren't), but I guess they're somewhere in the middle by now. Chaos players seem to always think they're being left out, just as a general trend... it's probably because daddy (The Emperor) doesn't love them anymore :D.

Zujara
22-03-2010, 07:03
I enjoy playing my Word Bearers, as well as slowly getting my force painted and converted. I started them on a whim since I didn't have a marine army yet, but had a Daemon army and Word Bearers seemed like the best choice to save some money. I win a fair share of my games with them and haven't really felt that gimped against the newer books, change is always nice but I am content with how my army plays and the conversion potential. Bring on the Blood Angels, they'll see who the true gods are!

nagash42
22-03-2010, 07:05
part of it might be because every chaos army in tourneys are the same where as all the newer armies can take all sorts of stuff and can still be competitive same with crons and DE for the most part. I think chaos used to be a big cash cow for GW to as people bought all sorts of bits for converting demon princes, lords, possessed vehicles and even normal guys to go with the vet abilities. Now most don't in my opinion cause all we need is a banner.

Voss
22-03-2010, 07:12
I think its partly a background thing. Chaos has somehow shifted from _the_ major threat to the Imperium to something of a joke. Orks have their Waaaghs, Necrons and Tyranids slaughter entire sectors and then there are small bands of angry marines pulling the galactic equivalent of a panty raid on a sorority house.

"Oh, another Black Crusade? Come on boys, grab your flashlights. Aim for the eyes, then slowly herd them back in the box. Shoo, mongrels, shoo. Thats it... follow the pretty lights... Alright, Creed, thats all of 'em, you can close the Gate again. That there Abaddon sure is a pesky feller, he keeps jumping the fence."

The Horus Heresy series threw a slightly different spanner in the works as well, by flatly contradicting established background, and casting a lot of doubt on what was going on. At least two 'renegade' legions come across as Not Really Traitors, Actually and Horus' motivations were so poorly written as to be almost nonexistent. 'Daddy hurt my feelings slightly so I guess I'm going to go along with this poorly conceived trap I can totally see through' doesn't make for an interesting basis for galactic civil war.

Fobster
22-03-2010, 08:14
I'm glade they moved away from legions toward a more generic chaos marine. Considering the legions were defeated and chased into the eot 10k years ago and have since suffered casualties from 13 crusades how are there any left to make a viable force?

totgeboren
22-03-2010, 08:44
Latro_s thoughts now were what I felt after reading though the current chaos marine codex for the first time.
Nothing has changed...

e2055261
22-03-2010, 08:50
Now I'm not a chaos hater or sypmathiser as such but to me, it does not seem all that long ago since CSMs was released. Then there was Chaos Daemons. Everyone wants a little attention now and then Chaos guys but all in good time...

Obligatory marine hate welcome.

Tourniquet
22-03-2010, 08:55
I would love to see books for my two favourite Legions, The Alpha Legion

Every Codex released is an Alpha Legion codex.
We just don't realise it yet

TimLeeson
22-03-2010, 08:57
I'm glade they moved away from legions toward a more generic chaos marine. Considering the legions were defeated and chased into the eot 10k years ago and have since suffered casualties from 13 crusades how are there any left to make a viable force?

wow, I thought I was the only one who felt that way - from a creative POV I much prefer renegades as they dont come with the baggage and limitations the legions seem to have. Alot of the legion armies I see tend to look and feel more rigid and organised than the imperial stuff I see as well (I still plenty of cool, creative DIY chapters but VERY rarely do I see a creative looking chaos marine army, allthough I admit they might be out there and I just havent seen the yet!).

player21
22-03-2010, 09:01
"Oh, another Black Crusade? Come on boys, grab your flashlights. Aim for the eyes, then slowly herd them back in the box. Shoo, mongrels, shoo. Thats it... follow the pretty lights... Alright, Creed, thats all of 'em, you can close the Gate again. That there Abaddon sure is a pesky feller, he keeps jumping the fence."



That made me laugh. Yes that does sum chaos up nicely:D

nagash42
22-03-2010, 22:37
well they actually took over the skies of cadia in the last campaign/ black crusade so that's basically a win not allowing the cadians any more support though i dunno if they went back and changed that like they do all the time sigh....

Mannimarco
23-03-2010, 01:03
not to get into a "yeah well chaos won on the ground so we won" which is countered by "yeah well the imperium won is space so we can just bombard the planet, besides you didnt win cis we still have pockets of reisitence"

to all those who are saying "well there cant be that many marines of the legions left after all this time" do you know how big the legions were? they were freaking huge! none of this 1000 per chapter stuff, that plus the legions can and do recruit new members, theres more than a couple of cases of that happening, see the iron warriors, skulltakers (who are part of the world eaters legion) etc

wolfspider
23-03-2010, 01:51
I would love to see a L&D combined with CSM to get the true fluff legion feel.

Corrode
23-03-2010, 02:18
not to get into a "yeah well chaos won on the ground so we won" which is countered by "yeah well the imperium won is space so we can just bombard the planet, besides you didnt win cis we still have pockets of reisitence"

to all those who are saying "well there cant be that many marines of the legions left after all this time" do you know how big the legions were? they were freaking huge! none of this 1000 per chapter stuff, that plus the legions can and do recruit new members, theres more than a couple of cases of that happening, see the iron warriors, skulltakers (who are part of the world eaters legion) etc

Let's assume a Legion has 100,000 members, and that they lose 10 Chaos Marines per year (a reasonable assumption given that the Legions are supposed to be fighting against each other, getting into random fights with Daemons in the Warp, as well as raiding the Imperium and fighting any xenos they come across). Even if only 10 Marines die per year, every last member of the Legion would be dead by the opening of M42. Given that most of the Legions were not 100k strong (in fact only the Ultramarines were even close), and that 10 Chaos Marines per year is a ridiculously low rate of attrition for a group which literally spend the entirety of their lives fighting something, then we can safely assume that there are no Heresy-era veterans remaining.

That said, I think the Legions are cool, and I'm perfectly willing to accept them in-game because quite frankly they're awesome. I do wish that people wouldn't go on about them like they're the next coming of Christ, though.

Eos Rahh
23-03-2010, 02:23
Chaos isnt unloved. They just came in at a terrible terrible time in GWs ideas on how codex should be. Once 5th ed hit everyone has been getting all kinds of nice new toys. And as everyone gets more and more toys our dex starts looking worse and worse. It will be just as awesome as everyone elses when it comes out but till then... just have to suffer.

But hey... We will prolly get dreadclaws in our new book. Soo that will be pretty awesome. As well as who knows what other chaosy things I cant think of at the moment.

Mannimarco
23-03-2010, 02:31
we legion players are a fanatical bunch, remember that even though we will no doubt lose marines we are also recruiting (forcibly somtimes) new members, we had the story where sorcerers of the thousand sons legion were seen performing the runric spell so theres more thousand sons being made, we have the story of lord xhufor who was captured and broken into becoming a skulltaker (see worl eater sub faction) and theres a whole lot of people living on the worlds in the eye, its more than likely these are used to create more marines

going by the recent books theres a pretty good chance we will get some of the IA stuff in the new book, dreadclaws are likely and we can expect to get some of the daemon engines

Setesh
23-03-2010, 02:33
In terms of rules Codex: CSM is still very competitive so yeah its okay for DE and necrons to get their much needed rules updates. The fluff, however needs some serious additions as it was just barren compared to earlier codices.
The mighty legions took a back seat to what is basically 'space marine pirates'. As for the arguement about the legions being underpowered after all the time fighting since the heresy, bear in mind they have the technology to create new space marines just like the loyalists. Daemoncubula for example.
I'd like to see a thicker book with a few options at the back for customising your force like space marine traits from 3rd ed. Basilisks for iron warriors and the older more characterful vehicle and weapon upgrades from the earlier codices would also be nice.
Should be pretty well known in lenton by now that people want a focus on the legions by now. Curse ye, Gav Thorpe!

DuskRaider
23-03-2010, 02:55
Let's assume a Legion has 100,000 members, and that they lose 10 Chaos Marines per year (a reasonable assumption given that the Legions are supposed to be fighting against each other, getting into random fights with Daemons in the Warp, as well as raiding the Imperium and fighting any xenos they come across). Even if only 10 Marines die per year, every last member of the Legion would be dead by the opening of M42. Given that most of the Legions were not 100k strong (in fact only the Ultramarines were even close), and that 10 Chaos Marines per year is a ridiculously low rate of attrition for a group which literally spend the entirety of their lives fighting something, then we can safely assume that there are no Heresy-era veterans remaining.

Well here's the thing, you're looking at it as literally 10,000 years. To those in the warp, 10 millenia can go by in what seems like only 100 years, or 10 or 1. There are fractions of the Traitor Legions constantly coming out, not to mention the whole fact these guys are manipulating the time mindf*** of the Warp and recruiting THEMSELVES for their numbers.

The fact is, you're trying to make sense of something that exists in a fictional setting. It doesn't make sense, and it doesn't need to especially considering we're dealing with Chaos and the powers of the Warp. Khorne doesn't want this World Eaters warband to be wiped out, but they are. What does he do? He resurrects them.

Let's not also forget that when a Chaos Legion warband or squad or whatever you want to call it makes planet fall, there may only be 20 Marines, but they're backed up by literally millions of humans, mutants, and daemons. So you actually end up conserving your numbers more by throwing massed numbers of essentially meat shields at the enemy.

MEPHISTONSRAGE
23-03-2010, 03:10
I think its partly a background thing. Chaos has somehow shifted from _the_ major threat to the Imperium to something of a joke. Orks have their Waaaghs, Necrons and Tyranids slaughter entire sectors and then there are small bands of angry marines pulling the galactic equivalent of a panty raid on a sorority house.

Galactic Panty raid! LOL, thats too rich. I think you hit the nail on the head pretty good there. Everyone else is a much greater threat tot he Imperium and Chaos marines are such a rarity. ( So they say)
So are marines for that matter, but hmmmm, i see them all day at the game shop.
All things considered, I would like to see the DE, Necrons, and Inquisition, and the Tau all get their due in that order. I would prefer inquisition be at the forefront, but I would rather they do it right, than screw it up.

Logan_uc
23-03-2010, 03:36
the problem with c:csm is its a 4th ed codex things in it are now over priced, and the lack of internal balance makes it boring to play because there are very few lists that will stand up to a fight.

it is unloved from the beginnig, although it was very powerfull it was bland, and the fluff turned damned anti-heros that fought for thousands of years in to punks and the chaos gonds in to good old pals... the codex plays like c: evil marines and worst it seems that seeling their soul to chaos made them weeker than a normal marine.

for the making of a new codex although im a csm player i think that DE, necrons, tau and even BT and DA (i now more imperial marines) need it more.

ps: for those of you how say that the legions should be extinct, you are very wrong... they make new marines to, have traitors to add to there ranks, use cloning, use the gene seed of loyal marines, have fabius bile, can come back from the dead, abbadon has half the gene seed in the galaxy, etc... so the emperors lap dogs are in much more danger of extinction.

Setesh
23-03-2010, 04:30
personally I'd like a resculpt of the obliterator models - I think they're atrocious looking which is a shame considering how good they are rules-wise (T_T) Awful squatting poses

nagash42
23-03-2010, 07:54
they need all the bulk to make their weapons and ammo ^_^ and they are much better then the originals.

Ivellis
23-03-2010, 08:54
I really, really hope the next codex goes back to Chaos Marines being a choice of unknowable ancient warrior monks, monstrous psychopaths, gibbering mutants and tragic anti-heroes. None of this "Let no good deed go unpunished." bull.

Plus I want a choice between being Renegades or Legions. Chaos has always seemed to get codices at bad times, the original 3rd edition dex also came at a time where GW thought less was more, just like the current one.

However I will acknowledge other armies need attention more. I am after all a player of many of those armies that need attention most. *glances at my sig*

Griffindale
23-03-2010, 08:58
Sure chaos is loved. Lets count your blessings here:

Khorne loves you. He just only knows how to show it with his axe.

Nurgle loves you. He just really likes to hug even though its not the best idea in the world to hug someone with myriad plagues.

Slaanesh loves you with his ****! Better buckle up Abigail May cuz Slaanesh likes to get wild! Break out the whips and chains:wtf:

Tzeentch loves you. I think he does anyways. Kinda hard to trust the Changer of Ways.

Born Again
23-03-2010, 09:15
I'm glade they moved away from legions toward a more generic chaos marine. Considering the legions were defeated and chased into the eot 10k years ago and have since suffered casualties from 13 crusades how are there any left to make a viable force?


wow, I thought I was the only one who felt that way - from a creative POV I much prefer renegades as they dont come with the baggage and limitations the legions seem to have. Alot of the legion armies I see tend to look and feel more rigid and organised than the imperial stuff I see as well (I still plenty of cool, creative DIY chapters but VERY rarely do I see a creative looking chaos marine army, allthough I admit they might be out there and I just havent seen the yet!).

Cool. So good to see someone I can agree with on this issue for once! I don't (read: DON'T!) want Codex: Legions. Legions are great and should be included, but I don't want them to do so in the manner of 3.5, or excluding Renegades entirely. One book covering both, thanks, which I think the current one does quite well actually. Pro-Legion players often compare renegades as some sort of new invention shoehorned in, raiding lone ships like some sort of bothersome galactic pirate. In reality, Post-Heresy Renegades have been part of the fluff since 2nd edition, and the flipside is that I can see many of the Legions as being a 10k year old bunch of ******** survivors from a war that to most Imperial citizens, is pure mythology, whereas the Renegades show that Marines turning bad and going on a murderous rampage is still a very modern and relevant threat to the Imperium.

Fear is the mind killer
23-03-2010, 10:27
Yeh they are unloved a bit, it's a shame really. Seriously though I would love to see books for my two favourite Legions, The Alpha Legion and The Night Lords.
However there's one thing I've learnt from GW and that is;

"To always expect the unexpected Space marine Codex" :D

At the risk of coming across as advertising, how about tweaking the codex to better represent these 2 armies like so: http://www.40kdirectorscut.com/page4.htm#alpha & http://www.40kdirectorscut.com/page13.htm#night ?

Setesh
23-03-2010, 14:48
At the risk of coming across as advertising, how about tweaking the codex to better represent these 2 armies like so: http://www.40kdirectorscut.com/page4.htm#alpha & http://www.40kdirectorscut.com/page13.htm#night ?

This would require too many lists to represent each faction. A modified 4th ed spessh mahrinn codex 'chapter traits' system could do this for the cost of 2 pages.

DuskRaider
23-03-2010, 15:01
Sure chaos is loved. Lets count your blessings here:

Khorne loves you. He just only knows how to show it with his axe.

Nurgle loves you. He just really likes to hug even though its not the best idea in the world to hug someone with myriad plagues.

Slaanesh loves you with his ****! Better buckle up Abigail May cuz Slaanesh likes to get wild! Break out the whips and chains:wtf:

Tzeentch loves you. I think he does anyways. Kinda hard to trust the Changer of Ways.

This. This made my day. I approve.

Fear is the mind killer
23-03-2010, 15:21
This would require too many lists to represent each faction. A modified 4th ed spessh mahrinn codex 'chapter traits' system could do this for the cost of 2 pages.

Perhaps. I was just suggesting that people use unofficial codexes if GW can't or won't do their army. Too many gamers have either forgotten or are unaware that they are completely free to make and use unofficial rules. GW doesn't have an elite team of enforcement officers who will come crashing through the window on zip lines if you don't use purely official rules.

Perhaps for the next codex they will allow a Night Lords character who makes Raptors into Troops choices, and an Alpha Legion character who allows infantry to infiltrate instead of taking an icon, or some other system akin to the newer codexes. Sure it won't be as good as a proper codex, but it would at least be better than deleting all non-Black Legion chaos armies.

DeviantApostle
23-03-2010, 15:35
Chaos is loved, at least by Father Nurgle and Slaanesh (in their own ways).

Chaos is certainly loved in that we get alot of Codexes.

We are certainly loved in that most of those Codexes have been really, really, cool. Except for the current one, which is a mess that feels a bit like patches on patches on patches. It surprised me that the BA codex falls pray to one of the big no-nos they should know by now about writing codexes: do not dictate how models can be painted by fluff. It's hard to rationalize a Thousand Sons squad that's not blue and gold, and now we have the BA codex that claims that only one successor chapter colours their Sanguinary Guard differently to the rest...

Chaos is loved because we have Obliterators, badass psychic powers, daemon weapons, DPs as HQs, nurgle bikers and still some of the best troop choices ever. Pity our elites, most fast attack and most of the Heavy Support units are pants and/or borrowed from the loyalists.

If I had to describe the new BA codex, I would liken it unto Pamela Anderson with the Hope Diamond nestled in her clevage. Most people have been gawking at the Stormraven bling while ignoring the rest of the package (For female readers, please replace Pamela with Brad or any man of your choice).

When comparing BA to CSM, we have the Death Company... a single troop choice that does everything that ALL of our Cultist troops do... only they're cheaper than all of them... and they can take jetpacks. Only a single troop choice but does that matter when you can take thirty of them? Or that taking 30 of them lets you fill out the rest of your troop choices with Dreadnaughts in drop pods? And Fast Razorbacks?

Yes, DE, Necrons, DA, SB, GK... all of them have the right to complain before Chaos players in terms of the length between releases. I'd still argue that the 'crons are solid, between C'Tan, Pariahs, Monoliths, etc. GW definitely owes DA, SB and GK players some love in the form of free temporary codexes a-la the WD Blood Angels update. DE needs to be done and done right. The last CSM codex was a BAD codex late in 4th edition's run that wasn't good back when it first came out and has just spiralled downhill from there.

Chaos, however, will always be Chaos and I still love the army and I'm not about to switch because the new Space Vampires sparkle like Edward Cullen. If anything, I always thought the cult troops were overpriced, the BA codex just confirms it.

edit: Oh, add to the list of love the Forge World support.

Setesh
23-03-2010, 18:51
Pity our elites, most fast attack and most of the Heavy Support units are pants and/or borrowed from the loyalists.

Got to love marked terminators though >: ]

The only issue i have with the codex is the fluff and a bit more customisation of cult units tbh - the army list performs very well still which is great.

viking657
23-03-2010, 19:33
you know your army needs a bit of love when your equally skilled at model building friend can put together a space marine battle force in the time it takes you to build a single obilterator.

Also if it wasn't for forgeworld with its reasonably priced chaos dreadnoughts, I would have probably bought three lumps of metal (instore chaos dreadnoughts) and thrown them at the head of whoever sculpted the new space marine dreadnoughts.
Which is one thing I hope they don't do when new chaos dex arrives, waste a plastic kit on a dreadnought because forgeworld totally have it covered.

As it stands I like the current dex but oh my god the content and fluff is so boring and bland.

Its perfectly possible to build a legion themed army that plays well I think what us chaos players really want are some new shiny, plastic toys.

Amnar
23-03-2010, 19:39
Ah the age old question, are Chaos Space Marines unloved and unlucky?

Personally I can see why the old book needed an overhaul, but I'm still in two minds as to whether the route chosen was the right one. That said they're still a very competitive army with some of the best units in the game.

In addition there's plenty of scope for conversion, especially where the cult troops are concerned.

Competitive, definitely, but the army is lacking character. As the main bad guys in the universe, I think they need new character.

I mean, I love my chaos, but I see all the options the new books are giving people and I feel a bit bummed. Hopefully when it's time they'll do the next chaos codex right. If they slide back into a less is more philosophy and give us a new chaos dex with no character or options, my impotent nerd rage will know no bounds.

Mannimarco
23-03-2010, 19:41
no its not possible to play a legion, yeah you can take a special character but thats not all there is to it, I play death guard so I'll use them as an example:

ok so I got my hq typhus and plague marine troops, now on to elites.....nothing legion there, ok heavy support.....nope......fast attack.....well I got blight drones but they aint codex

suppose I want to play night lords/alpha legion/word bearers, what makes any of them different? theres nothing, I can take a lot of chosen and pretend its infiltrating alpha legion or take some raptors with a jump pack lord and pretend they're night lords

you dont get marked terminators, you get spiky bob carrying a stick that makes everybody angry/fast/tough, I wish we got marked termys then I could break out my FW deathguard ones and actually call them plague marine termys (dont worry in the fan dex I charge 60pts each for them)

the customisation is sorely lacking throughout the list and the prince is a no brainer when it comes to HQ, once you have a tooled up lord you might as well take a prince for the same points as he's a lot better

options for the prince usually boils down to "hmm do I take warptime or wind of chaos.....and wings.....ah who am I kidding of course I'll get wings"

so yeah options are kinnda bare and fluff is......well its just bad, dont get me wrong I dont want "and lo abaddon dit strike the avatar once and ye it did crumble as one squad of his chosen terminators did slay many millions on the craftworld redshirt" but I'd like somthing a little more than huron captures a strike cruiser. Really? thats our big victory in our book? the loyalists destroy a world engine, wazdakka destroys a titan and our boy huron captures a ship he probably destroyed several of when he turned?

thedigitalflip
23-03-2010, 21:53
no its not possible to play a legion, yeah you can take a special character but thats not all there is to it, I play death guard so I'll use them as an example:

ok so I got my hq typhus and plague marine troops, now on to elites.....nothing legion there, ok heavy support.....nope......fast attack.....well I got blight drones but they aint codex

suppose I want to play night lords/alpha legion/word bearers, what makes any of them different? theres nothing, I can take a lot of chosen and pretend its infiltrating alpha legion or take some raptors with a jump pack lord and pretend they're night lords

you dont get marked terminators, you get spiky bob carrying a stick that makes everybody angry/fast/tough, I wish we got marked termys then I could break out my FW deathguard ones and actually call them plague marine termys (dont worry in the fan dex I charge 60pts each for them)

the customisation is sorely lacking throughout the list and the prince is a no brainer when it comes to HQ, once you have a tooled up lord you might as well take a prince for the same points as he's a lot better

options for the prince usually boils down to "hmm do I take warptime or wind of chaos.....and wings.....ah who am I kidding of course I'll get wings"

so yeah options are kinnda bare and fluff is......well its just bad, dont get me wrong I dont want "and lo abaddon dit strike the avatar once and ye it did crumble as one squad of his chosen terminators did slay many millions on the craftworld redshirt" but I'd like somthing a little more than huron captures a strike cruiser. Really? thats our big victory in our book? the loyalists destroy a world engine, wazdakka destroys a titan and our boy huron captures a ship he probably destroyed several of when he turned?

This is a win :D

We need a better way to represent our armies on the field imo

MEPHISTONSRAGE
24-03-2010, 00:32
Well, now that they have done the Space Marines so well, with multiple leaders, and lots of options, it would be nice if they could do the same for Chaos. Admittedly, Chaos has several heroes of its own. But with several books out, regarding the Horus Heresy and otherwise, we could have the likes of Honsou from the Iron Warriors, or Erebus or Kor Phaeron, from the Word Bearers, Talos, or Halasker form the Night Lords, ( i would nominate my personal hero, Lord Vasectomous, of the Night Lords here) BUT... they could do it and give us some new characters that have army wide benefits as well.
Or maybe just their own special HtH???
Having options for the Chosen for the various Chaos factions, and the chapters, (Alpha Legion, anyone)
Let us pick the Daemon Possessed skills, not roll for it.
Redo the psychics. Each Pantheon has its own 8 special spells.
Give back some veteran abilities.
I miss the daemons.
And the Daemon Princes. they are pale shadows of their former glory.
I do like the Daemon Weapons. They are fun.
I think the fluff of the armies hurts how people make their armies.Khornate Havoc's anyone? Nurgle troops that aren't nurgle, but have a lascannon? Same for Tzeentch?
Many of us are still working under the notion of Khornes magic number is 8, Slaneesh is 6,Nurgle 7, Tzeentch is 9. And Khorne and Slaneesh hate each other, as do Tzeentch and Nurgle. There was damonic emnity and some troops just didn;t get along.
Soooo, fluff wise, I labor under pre-concieved dogma that has been written down for 20 years. Could I take 4 Squads of 8 berserkers, and two havoc squads with lascannons, and 8 on bikes, and a Sqaud of Khornate Terminators???Oh and rhinos for the troop choices? Points left over, buy a Daemon Prince, or a vindicator, or Predator.
I've seen it done, and the person who used the Havocs was hounded hard by everyone as not following the fluff. *rolls eyes*
I found it refreshing. though even i thought, yeesh, thats not how they do it.
And to wrap it all up, I do love this army. Night Lords work for me. Have been running them for some time. Let terror fill their hearts, let Darkness Fall.
Can they do things different, even maybe make some seperate army books? Yeah, but this army still brings it to the table and is no pushover. And I like the thought of them far more than Orks and bugs, and necrons. But to each his own.

Mannimarco
24-03-2010, 01:03
just to go a little off topic but this guy running the khornate havocs should have pointed out he's actually following the original fluff and not the pale shadow that calls itself khorne nowadays, back in the day khorne actually rather enjoyed heavy weapons as they get the blood flowing from anywhere on the field, you can run and hid from a berserker but not from a guy who can blow your head off at 1000 yards

I take it the cannon of khorne or that fountain of blood or the newer thower of skulls arnt fluffy either

Joewrightgm
24-03-2010, 01:28
Well, if we're talking about original legion size, consider that not all were a uniform size; recruitment was (and is not) fixed for any organisation really.

Let's take the Loyalists and how they were broken down:

The Dark Angels were broken into a total of four chapters: the Dark Angels, and Angels of Absolution, Redemption and Vengeance, meaning that in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy and Caliban schism, that there were only 4,000 or so marines left of a legion the more than likely numbered around 10,000.

The White Scars fared better, with 5 chapters being made, the Imperial Fists being one of the worst hit with only three chapters being made, Blood Angels were broken into 6, Raven Guard into 4, the Iron Hands into 3 and the Salamanders siring no known successors.

The Ultramarines are noted as having been one of the largest legions, and the Apocrypha of Skaros lists that there are as many as 23 Successors, though the only Second Founding Chapters named number 8.

Now, in the Horus Heresy: Collected visions, it was said that the Ultramarines were the most numerous, numbering almost 250,000 marines at their height. Since, after the Scouring of the Imperium and implementation of the Codex, they as a body raised (at best) a total of 23,000 or 24,000 marines organized into chapters indicates just how hard the Heresy was on the legion formations.

It also shows that the Salamanders, Iron Hands and Raven Guard were amongst the hardest hit from the Drop Site Massacres as well as the Imperial Fists who were fighting at the Imperial Palace.

Assuming similar rates of attrition, we can assume that the average traitor legion, such as they were after Horus' defeat, ranged any where from 4,000 to 10,000 or more.

Also, if you consider the Black Library books canon, which I think a good deal of them should be considered (except for Goto. I would break his wrists with a baseball bat if I could) the traitors still actively recruit; see Dead Sky, Black Sun.

Don't discount either the influx of marines seeking sanctuary within the traitor legions or other Chaos war bands.

Mannimarco
24-03-2010, 02:24
and we must remember that a lot of these little renegade chapters we see today are actually off shoots and subfations of the original legions, take the apostles of contagion, the purge, the tainted and the lords of decay are listed as death guard sub factions, meaning the death guard are large enough to create subfactions and still have enough marines to form a presence themselves. The steel brethern are an iron warrior sub faction, theres a renegade chapter listed in the codex who have EC geneseed markers, so that probably means sub faction of a legion and not newly turned renegades

point being the CSM forces can and do recruit new members, can create new marines (see the above mentioned Dead Sky Black Sun) so even through attrition theres still enough of them the create sub factions and still exist themselves

even the World Eaters (who are supposed to be shattered) still had enough manpower to pull together however many thousands of marines and come out and play when Angron launched an invasion, even they have 3 or 4 subfactions

nagash42
24-03-2010, 02:58
I just want more demon engines so they can make new stuff for the legions instead of them just copying the imperium all the time....and dreadclaws.

Mannimarco
24-03-2010, 03:19
you want to be different from the imperium by having a drop pod?

I agree on the daemon engines though, screw taking a dreadnought when you can have a blood slaughterer, fast attack? gotta be the blight drones etc

DuskRaider
24-03-2010, 04:19
Screw Drop Pods, one time use pieces of garbage. Give me my damn Dread Claws!

Dragoon King
24-03-2010, 04:21
If your a Black Legion player like me, ya feel loved, lol! I HAVE ABBY. Enough said. Come on, we get some of the nastiest units in the game. Oblits. Cult troops, I say again, cult troops that are troop selections! Terminators that are all Aspiring Champs with Lightning Claws, 10 man Termie squads! Vindicators. I never leave home without one. Deep striking Daemon Princes with the MoS and 2 psyhic powers! Lash Princes. Shooty Chosen that can infiltrate! That's right, power-armored guys that can infiltrate. I could sit and complain about how the current dex sucks and how nids, SW, and BA are sooo much better. Instead I choose to find a way to combat them and stick their heads on my trophy racks, lol. Sure, the dex could have been much better. I do feel sorry for the other legions, because they lost all of their flavor. Then I look at my Chaos Termies and all is well with the world. Gotta admit we get some kickass models.

nagash42
24-03-2010, 04:40
I didn't say drop pods i said dreadclaws which are better :P

Kveld-Ulf
24-03-2010, 06:28
Easy answer: The Chaos Codex is usable, and does have quite a bit of good in it.

Difficult/Whining/Cold Logic answer: Chaos got screwed over compared to every codex coming out after it. It went from having a plethora of options (many of which were over-powerful and overused) to being a bare bones codex. ESPECIALLY when compared to the new SM/SW/BA. I don't mind that we don't have as many over powered units, just that we lost so many and so much versatility with it.

Anyways, it is what it is. It's usable until a better one comes out.

Born Again
24-03-2010, 06:52
no its not possible to play a legion, yeah you can take a special character but thats not all there is to it, I play death guard so I'll use them as an example:

ok so I got my hq typhus and plague marine troops, now on to elites.....nothing legion there, ok heavy support.....nope......fast attack.....well I got blight drones but they aint codex

This is the argument Legion players always use, and it would be fair EXCEPT that not once have I ever heard an Ork player whine that they can't use their Snakebite army because there's no boarboyz in the list, or any other army complain that their army is now no longer playable because a few options were taken away.


suppose I want to play night lords/alpha legion/word bearers, what makes any of them different? theres nothing, I can take a lot of chosen and pretend its infiltrating alpha legion or take some raptors with a jump pack lord and pretend they're night lords


Yes, that's exactly it. That's what army themes are, and let's be honest a seperate codex/ list for each Legion is overkill, people complain about the amount of MEQ's in the game already. People need to learn again what it means to theme their army from a generic list, instead of having GW hand them a list of restrictions and a couple of new units and saying "use this for a cookie-cutter army for X faction".


so yeah options are kinnda bare and fluff is......well its just bad, dont get me wrong I dont want "and lo abaddon dit strike the avatar once and ye it did crumble as one squad of his chosen terminators did slay many millions on the craftworld redshirt" but I'd like somthing a little more than huron captures a strike cruiser. Really? thats our big victory in our book? the loyalists destroy a world engine, wazdakka destroys a titan and our boy huron captures a ship he probably destroyed several of when he turned?


Well, a ship is a significantly bigger prize than the titan that Wazdakka took out... maybe he should have just killed an Avatar single-handed though :p

GrimZAG
24-03-2010, 07:50
If there were as many people who played Chaos, as there are Loyalist, then maybe there would be more legion specific stuff.

Vermin-thing
24-03-2010, 10:47
Well seeing as they messed up my three favorite units.... Raptors, Dreads, and Possessed. :(


I want to do a night lords army of fallen angels via the Sanguinary guard.

Wings of Night character (chaptermaster)

4 X 5 "Forsaken angles" (sanguinary guard)

3 X 5 "Fallen angels" (assault marines)

2 X 5 "Angles of Night" (death company marines with jumppacks)

Painted: Black wings, dark dark blue up to enchanted blue, red/gold shoulders.

Mannimarco
24-03-2010, 15:11
This is the argument Legion players always use, and it would be fair EXCEPT that not once have I ever heard an Ork player whine that they can't use their Snakebite army because there's no boarboyz in the list, or any other army complain that their army is now no longer playable because a few options were taken away.



Yes, that's exactly it. That's what army themes are, and let's be honest a seperate codex/ list for each Legion is overkill, people complain about the amount of MEQ's in the game already. People need to learn again what it means to theme their army from a generic list, instead of having GW hand them a list of restrictions and a couple of new units and saying "use this for a cookie-cutter army for X faction".



Well, a ship is a significantly bigger prize than the titan that Wazdakka took out... maybe he should have just killed an Avatar single-handed though :p

Perhaps the ork players arnt as fanatically devoted as the chaos legion players are, your more likely to find sombody who wants to play a legion than sombody who want to play a specific clan. An ork is an ork is an ork whether he's painted black and swinging a choppa or painted in camo and sneaking through some undergrowth

Perhaps a seperate dex for some legions is overkill, it would certainly put back the schedule for the other books. You cant really blame the legion players for feeling neglected when we have 1 book that can just about manage to make a black legion army and all the forces of chaos are reduced to mercs who happily fight alongside other legion troops. Especially when our loyalist brothers can get a book for a few chapters, each one has more options than our own book and actually fits some f our own forces better than our own book, you ask do we need codex legions? I answer no not really if I want to play world eaters i'll use codex space wolves or perhaps blood angels. If I want to play alpha legion or night lords or maube even Iron warriors I'll use codex: ultramarines. Theres somthing seriously wrong when sombody elses book better represents your chosen armies fluff (and no its not WAAC shiny new dex syndrome all the time)

Granted thats a problem with the current chaos dex rather than the other books. i should just be happy with my book and learn to adapt to its limitations, I'll do that just as soon as codex space wolves and blood angels dont exist and codex ultrmarines is as bare as our own book, but thats ok you can still paint them grey or red and call them space wolves/blood angels, you gotta learn to adapt to the new book, dont worry you'll still have your special characters but they wont have any army buff skills, you can still have your generic captain and librarians but by the time you upgrade them they will cost so much that you might as well take the character even though he doesnt have any army buffs

gone are the themes and background story to be replaced by "ok I need to hold the objective so i'll take plague marines and I need to shift the enemy off his objective so I'll take these berserkers, maybe I should take some fire support so...hmm either havoks or obliterators.....ah who am I kidding 3 obliterators and I gotta have an hq......who elese other than a winged prince....my only real choice is do I want wind of chaos or warptime"

more books would just put restrictions on the list and increase cookie cutter lists, would this be any different from the current book? if anything the current chaos dex gives us more cookie cutter lists than having more books (remember more books = more options)

my point about the ship being captured is a lot of races get their "big victory" in their book, theres 1 ork destroying a titan, thats a pretty rare thing to happen, marines destroying a world engine doesnt happen too often, marine destroying avatar is pretty rare......well uncommon......well.....likely....and chaos big victory is huron capturing a ship he no doubt destroyed a lot of when he turned, it doesnt convey the power of chaos very well when our victory story is capturing a ship that we destroy every other week. Im not saying huron/abaddon should spank an avatar like he was its daddy but there should be somthing a little more impressive. Lets turn it around, suppose you open a loyalist book tomorrow and the only story where that army wins is when the destroy an iconoclast or infidel class ship, you wouldnt think your army was that good would you?

nagash42
24-03-2010, 18:42
3.5 gave us legion options very easily with just a page of fiction and a few rules I say they just do that again or maybe 2 pages since the book would probably be bigger.

then give raptors furious charge and maybe another attack I mean they have those really nasty looking clawed feet can see them dropping from the sky onto people.

Neat observation in the BA book there's a raptor armed with a heavy bolter in the death company picture.

qwertywraith
24-03-2010, 18:53
our loyalist brothers

No brother of mine. :mad: /Spits


my point about the ship being captured is a lot of races get their "big victory" in their book, theres 1 ork destroying a titan, thats a pretty rare thing to happen, marines destroying a world engine doesnt happen too often, marine destroying avatar is pretty rare......well uncommon......well.....likely....and chaos big victory is huron capturing a ship he no doubt destroyed a lot of when he turned, it doesnt convey the power of chaos very well when our victory story is capturing a ship that we destroy every other week. Im not saying huron/abaddon should spank an avatar like he was its daddy but there should be somthing a little more impressive. Lets turn it around, suppose you open a loyalist book tomorrow and the only story where that army wins is when the destroy an iconoclast or infidel class ship, you wouldnt think your army was that good would you?

Don't forget about the terminator that totally crushed that guardsman's head. He was like "Dude! Did you see that? I totally crushed his head!"

So what is the book's fluff trying to tell us?
1. A single quirk is enough fluff for your homebrew warband.
2. Chaos Marines that do anything slightly significant get spanked by Loyalists.
3. Don't bother naming anyone.
4. Attribute your warband's origin to "unknown", or "was left unsupervised".
5. Space Wolves surrender at the drop of a hat.
6. What's a "theme"?

sabreu
24-03-2010, 19:46
3.5 gave us legion options very easily with just a page of fiction and a few rules I say they just do that again or maybe 2 pages since the book would probably be bigger.

It's an easy fix really, that does not require legion-based books. Just add those quirky handful of rules in the next dex and reintroduce the lost "units". Get your servo-arm pumping iron warrior lord, your savvy dark apostle with his dark litanies, some mutations here and there and chaos cultists and you've got everything back in order. Man, that was hard work. :p

Dragoon King
24-03-2010, 20:29
It's an easy fix really, that does not require legion-based books. Just add those quirky handful of rules in the next dex and reintroduce the lost "units". Get your servo-arm pumping iron warrior lord, your savvy dark apostle with his dark litanies, some mutations here and there and chaos cultists and you've got everything back in order. Man, that was hard work. :p

We can only hope. Also, keep Gav Thorpe at least 10 miles away from the next dex (whenever it comes).:D

Mannimarco
24-03-2010, 20:46
we can only hope that Cruddace and Ward cooperate on the book, they our daemon princes might be twice as expensive before any stuff bought for him but we'll be slaughtering millions of eldar just by looking at them funny

ChaosScion
24-03-2010, 21:42
Perhaps the reason they wouldn't want a similar 3.5 codex to prevent the legions rules from making chaos armies too similar to the loyalist marines. Eg. Night lords / World Eaters would be very similar to BA, Iron Warriors would be similar to Imperial Fist / Salamanders, Death Guard would be similar to SW, Alpha Legion would be similar to Raven Guard etc... Not that i absolutely love the current codex, but i Agree its still playable.
I do think whats necessary and all there is to do would just be to add a couple of daemon engines, remove rolling for possessed, add some veteran or daemonic skills (cmon they are after all veterans of the Long War and have survived in the EOT} and some extra really scary kick ass SCs. Not too much to ask for. Our current heavy support inventory (excluding Defiler) are just basically marine vehicles with spikes *roll eyes* nothing more. Even my friends who play other armies agree that our current chaos are a bit too bland atm. And i do think focusing on renegades is a bit silly. Chapters that go traitor suddenly cant use infantry carried multi-meltas, lost all their landspeeders, decided razorbacks aint useful anymore, only the main variant of LR is needed to fight the Imperium and that all scouts are now promoted to be battle brothers??? If anyone wants renegade chapters, just use C:SM and take them as renegades. It makes more sense. Just like what current traitor guard players are doing using C:IG and they aint complaining for the LOTD codex like in the past.

Joewrightgm
24-03-2010, 23:40
I think the solution lies in between the current codex and and 3.5

The main thing is to get a balance between the versatility and legion feel of the old codex, without it degenerating into the mess of seemingly arbitrary and restrictive lists that led to Iron Warrior spam and infiltrating demonic speed lords.

The fix, I think is keeping the cult troops as they stand, and making the marks available without an icon to other troops in the force org. Normal Chaos Marines would have the Mark of Chaos Undivided/ Chaos Glory standard. Icons would still be available as homers for the demon summoning.

For example (the point values have no basis in balance or reality, I'm just using it to make my point): You have terminators, and you want to make them Nurgle; you pay +8pts a model to give them the Mark of Nurgle, which bestows Feel No Pain and Toughness 5 in brackets.

This would allow you to choose a 'legion' based list, or an offspring war band or a renegade chapter.

The same logic would follow for Demon Princes, Lords, Sorcerers and what not. I think that Chosen should be like Stormtroopers with their "Special Operations" rule where you choose a skill set when you choose the army. I think Possessed should be the same way.

I think the Demon Princes could do with a list of options that rivals at least the Chaos Lord.

Similarly, Chaos Lords should be able to affect the composition of the army they lead with the wargear that they have, similar to the Codex: Space Marines captains when they take a bike, bike squads that are ___ models big become troops; same thing with jump packs.

Speaking of which, I think Chaos Lords should be able to purchase other kinds of wargear from the old book: Dark Apostle at X pts and it gives the model a Cursed Crozius and Demagogue, a Warsmith will have a Servo-Arm, Night Lord a jump pack and gives his unit Hit and Run, etc.

I think that Sorcerer's could do with being able to choose powers without paying points like a Librarian from Codex: Space Marines.

I would personally keep the Greater Demons and Summoned Demons as they are. They add (in my opinion) depth and interest to the list, but should in no way overshadow who are the stars of the list: Chaos Space Marines.

Similarly I think cultists, traitors, and mutants should be in their own book. Because to include them would be like including demons from Chaos Demons: Overshadowing the race who's book it is.

That, and we would have the unholy trinity of Chaos: Demons, Marines, and Lost and the Damned.

Just my thoughts. The Codex in my opinion is a great book that is flexible and great for a player that doesn't need to have their hand held to create a renegade or legion war band, but to fully bring back the 3.5 codex would be a step backward in the wrong direction.

Jusu
24-03-2010, 23:43
i said to hell with their proposed ideas for legions and chapters, so i made my own. laziness ftw.

DuskRaider
25-03-2010, 00:38
I think the idea of army wide bonuses is great, but I think they should take it a step further. So, say I take a World Eaters Lord. Since he's a World Eaters Lord, all vehicles in the force count as open-topped for assault purposes, and if he's wearing Terminator Armor, Terminators (World Eater Terminators ONLY) become Troop Choices.

Say I take a Death Guard Lord. Since he's a Death Guard Lord, Dread Claws cost are reduced by 1/2, and if I give him Daemonic Possession, then Possessed or Daemons can be taken as troops.

Night Lords are a bit iffy. Their Legion, despite popular belief, is NOT consistent of mainly Raptors. They're more known for terror tactics, so you could do something like this. A Night Lords Lord (that sounds weird) gives his army a universal rule of Hit and Run, or perhaps automatically make their opponents suffer -2 to their Ld in CC. Conversely, going with the Dread Claw idea, give them the option of actually being able to land ON opponents. Could be abused horribly, but make it similar to the Trygon's large blast template idea.

Alpha Legion is somewhat easier, I suppose. An Alpha Legions Lord automatically makes Chosen a Troops Choice, and on top of that you can also take Traitor Guard as scoring Troops (they'd otherwise be non-scoring). Another good idea I had for an Alpha Legion ability is "Traitor In Their Midst". It would work like this... the Alpha Legion player chooses an opponent's troop squad at the beginning of the game. At any point during the game, the Alpha Legion player may choose to use this ability. The opponent is forced to make a Ld check, and if PASSED they become a sleeper cell of the Alpha Legion that has revealed itself in the middle of battle. From that point on, they are controlled by the Alpha Legion player. If the squad survives until the end of the game, the opponent gets a VP. If they die before the end of the game, the Alpha Legion player gains a VP.

I could probably think of others, Iron Warriors are a Legion I especially enjoy. I've actually written a homebrew codex for my two favorites, however (Death Guard and World Eaters), if anyone's interested.

Drakon
25-03-2010, 00:50
CSM are still tough i play SW and DG and DG have my better win rate against the same opponents. Why is it that people have to complain about their army every time a new one gets released and then when they do get released they complain about it not being tough enough or too tough.

Suppose to be a game of fun you know :rolleyes:

Joewrightgm
25-03-2010, 01:33
CSM are still tough i play SW and DG and DG have my better win rate against the same opponents. Why is it that people have to complain about their army every time a new one gets released and then when they do get released they complain about it not being tough enough or too tough.

Suppose to be a game of fun you know :rolleyes:

Definitely not complaining; I happen to really like the current codex, because I don't have to bleed from the eyes trying to work around legion and odd mark rules to make an interesting list. :p

That said, I think the intent of this thread has been lost under a fair bit of whining, but I think some of the ideas are interesting enough to have some merit in future iterations of the army.

I guess the only 'un-loving' thing I would truly complain about is the lack of interesting model support; IE, a plastic kit for havocs, the oft seen but never released Demon Prince, Raptors, etc. Just basic stuff that would give players more variety in choosing plastic models really.

GrogDaTyrant
25-03-2010, 02:23
This is the argument Legion players always use, and it would be fair EXCEPT that not once have I ever heard an Ork player whine that they can't use their Snakebite army because there's no boarboyz in the list, or any other army complain that their army is now no longer playable because a few options were taken away.


Well for starters, it's because few (if any) Ork players actually 'whine'. But many of us do mourn the loss of the Clans. You just don't see the grumblings here however, because Warseer isn't the prominent gathering site for Ork players.

While some Clans are certainly capable of being represented with the current 4th ed Codex, some aren't. Evil Suns are easily represented, until you want to do a bike-themed Evil Sun list... Then you're stuck with Captain-Fail, a.k.a. Wazzdakka. But I just field him as a 'counts-as' lesser-hq big-mek/distractionin order to field the army I want. Snakebites are practically nothing BUT a counts-as army now, with pretty much everything having to be represented as something it's not (squig-packs as Choppa Boyz, Boarboyz as Bikes, etc).

And thanks to that silly 0-1 limit on 'Ard Boyz, Bad Moonz are stuck without being able to properly represent a horde of 'geared-up' wealthy gitz. They can still be done, just without the mass quantities of 'Ard Boyz (yet you can field 5x the amount of Nob units in 'Eavy armor...). And as a Deathskull player, I can honestly say that I hate the Looted Wagon entry with a passion. In Apoc games, I don't bother with Looted Wagons, and instead just run BS 2 versions of whatever vehicle I looted.


But ultimately, my only real gripe with GW's 'thou shalt not have variant lists' mantra, is that it only applies to everyone BUT loyalists. If loyalist Marines followed the same design-doctrine as everyone else currently, or if the clans, legions, craftworlds, regiments, etc. got just PDFs to represent them... I'd be perfectly happy.

Vermin-thing
25-03-2010, 04:18
I've just finished doing the bare bones of my chaos army list; armory, Chaos Prince, Chaos Space Marines, Raptors, Cultists, and the Death Guard. Play testing starts now.

We can all stop bitching and do something about it.

I really hope that GW would take a less obnoxious stance towards home-grown play-tested lists, as pleasing the fan base is as easy as doing up a PDF for some of the smaller factions. Non craftworld eldar would be a blessing.

Born Again
25-03-2010, 06:44
Perhaps the ork players arnt as fanatically devoted as the chaos legion players are, your more likely to find sombody who wants to play a legion than sombody who want to play a specific clan. An ork is an ork is an ork whether he's painted black and swinging a choppa or painted in camo and sneaking through some undergrowth

It's probably about the same difference as a Marine painting his armour blue/ green/ red or whatever, actually. If GW wanted to put the time and development in to it, any faction could be made it's own army. The result was 3rd edition codecies *shudders*.


Perhaps a seperate dex for some legions is overkill, it would certainly put back the schedule for the other books. You cant really blame the legion players for feeling neglected when we have 1 book that can just about manage to make a black legion army and all the forces of chaos are reduced to mercs who happily fight alongside other legion troops. Especially when our loyalist brothers can get a book for a few chapters, each one has more options than our own book and actually fits some f our own forces better than our own book, you ask do we need codex legions? I answer no not really if I want to play world eaters i'll use codex space wolves or perhaps blood angels. If I want to play alpha legion or night lords or maube even Iron warriors I'll use codex: ultramarines. Theres somthing seriously wrong when sombody elses book better represents your chosen armies fluff (and no its not WAAC shiny new dex syndrome all the time)

I agree that, when compared to more recent books, the CSM book is lacking in options. That's just the result of the time period though and will be fixed in the next version I'm sure. However I don't think there's anything wrong with it's representation of Legions at all. OK, your World Eater Termies only get +1A and not Furious Charge, I get it, but it's not the end of the world. As I've said numerous times, army themes are exactly that, a theme based around an existing list. Because, let's be honest, to make Legions in to their own distinct forces (even if it was just the 4 power-aligned ones) would require some work. Certainly I wouldn't want to see Codex: Death Guard just to find it was the CSM book with Feel No Pain and +1T on everything. There'd have to be new troop types, SC's, model range and a different playstyle to truly warrant it. Having said that, I see they're trying to do that with the loyalist chapters now, hence the overdone Renaissance angel type thing on the new BA's which some have complained about, but at least differentiates them from vanilla marines. I really hope they give DA's a similar overhaul because, as cool as the fluff is, I don't see them warranting their own codex game-wise. They're just green marines with black bikes and bone termies *ducks abuse from DA players*

Anyway, yes in an ideal world there'd be an upgrade to put your thousand sons in termie armour, but I think it will always be a balance between fitting what they can in a single book and flooding the game with more options than Tzeentch himself could juggle. Chaos is just too expansive, yet the last thing we need is more codecies. In that sense I think the current book, while lacking in it's options and upgrades, does a fine job of allowing you to play different factions as far as I'm concerned.

Logarithm Udgaur
25-03-2010, 07:35
Just like what current traitor guard players are doing using C:IG and they aint complaining for the LOTD codex like in the past.

While I do just that, I would still rather use C:EoT, overcosted everything and all.

cyenwulf
25-03-2010, 07:40
ITT: SM players defend their lovechild status, while simultaneously propagating the belief that it is them and only them keeping Games Workshop afloat.

Ivellis
25-03-2010, 08:24
Personally I really want a 'dex that combines LatD, Daemons and CSM, but that's just me. Then differentiate them enough that people don't cry about the Chaos codex having all the IG goodies and all the CSM goodies and all the Daemon goodies. Make daemons summoned, take marines out of troops except as sergeants, make them HQ, elites, maybe FA and HS. Don't give them access to all the marine tanks and IG tanks, give them a few of each and a few of their own. And don't let them have platoons.

And of course have marks, and only give icons to the humans.

Setesh
25-03-2010, 09:43
daemons and csm legions fit in previous codicies. It can be done again quite easily :/
LatD might be a stretch but tbh the guard codex represents them fine I think.

Also despite the fluff realism i think moving csm out of troops would be too radical for most gamers, me included.

Mannimarco
25-03-2010, 19:37
Truth be told when the imperium fights against chaos its more likely to be against hordes of cultists and mutant running around like maniacs screaming their devotion to the dark gods, there should be warp rifts summoning daemons, fearless (read fanatical) cultists throwing themselves on the enemy ignoring casualties, the main type of chaos army faced in the fluff isnt the ancient marines who fought in the the horus heresy nor is it spiky bob who figured last week "screw this good guy crap I'm gonna worship chaos now", chaos is the local populace, that guy who got turned down for a promotion, those soldiers whose lives are squadered by a commander sitting behind a desk a million miles away from the fron line

its odd that the most common kind of chaos threat to the galaxy is the only one that doesnt have its own book, want to play chaos as it should be? dont play codex: CSM, play codex: EOT or IA: siege of vraks

the guard codex does a good job of covering the lost and the damned (if you want to play somthing like blood pact or another of the well armed armies) or even the poorly equipped rabble of cultists somply by taking a horde of cinscripts with send in the next wave.

there are those who say that codex chaos shouldnt just be marines with spikes, the same could be argued that codex lost and the damned shouldnt just be guard with "FOR CHAOS!!!!" screamed every so often

Col. Tartleton
25-03-2010, 23:18
I'd like to see a chaos list that represents CSM as mortals of chaos. A dozen high powered mini heroes and overwhelming waves of fodder, death engines, and transdimensional fiends... and a few squads of younger marines if you want to go meq heavy.

I think a HQ and command squad, 5 Chaos Termies and two squads of marines is enough. From there you bulk up with 3 point cultist waves and 5 point traitor guard with swarm type daemons which are piles of gibbering warp anti-matter instead of traditional marked daemons which would only be able to form as part of the Daemons of Chaos book. Some possessed daemon engines, heavy artillery, and tanks, and boom fun fluffy list.

That way you're ancient and mighty veterans are relatively rare and have their lackies to make them look good.

Setesh
26-03-2010, 01:21
I think a HQ and command squad, 5 Chaos Termies and two squads of marines is enough. From there you bulk up with 3 point cultist waves and 5 point traitor guard with swarm type daemons which are piles of gibbering warp anti-matter instead of traditional marked daemons which would only be able to form as part of the Daemons of Chaos book.

So if you have a world eaters or blood pact army you can't have bloodthirsters, hounds or bloodletters?

Seems as nonsensical as the current daemon restrictions in codex CSMs :(

Doogle
26-03-2010, 02:09
I just want more love given to the undivided legions.
My favorite legions, gone.
:(

Mannimarco
26-03-2010, 02:44
everybodys favourite legion is gone, fortunately theres a way around it for some legions provided your gaming buddies are cool with it:

my death guard dont exist anymore but with the simple addition of the hq necrosius and fast attack blight drones its closer to a death guard army than simply using the codex would be

world easters dont exist anymore but taking zhufor and some blood slaughterers its a bit closer to a true world eater army

alpha legion dont exist? take the vraks 1 list and they do, failing that take the alpha legion hq arkos and your closer to alpha legion than the codex could do

the codex itself is pretty bare when it comes to variety, fortunately you can use the FW stuff to bulk it out and turn it into a decent book with some variety at least

DeviantApostle
26-03-2010, 02:45
I agree wholeheartedly that separating Chaos out was a mistake. The large disparity in power levels between the mooks and the HQs is also what I want. Chaos had it best in 3.5 with LotD. The other question that mortal cultists satisfy is: Where do the Legions now get their recruits from? Sure, some Loyalists are going to grow a brain and see the dark but that doesn't really account for the Legion's ability to replace their casualties.

Weak mortals, mutants vying for the power of being a CSM form the lowest layer. Tier 2, you have the equivalent of space marine scouts. tier 3 should be the CSMs and lesser daemons. Tier 4, dedicated CSM cults. Tier 5: Warmasters, Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons.

Chaos HQ choices should be the baddest mothers in 40K. These guys have the Chaos God's personal attention, they went into the warp and conquered daemon worlds. They have been fighting constantly for 10,000 years. They have morning tea with Greater Daemons and take joy rides in the Event Horizon.

What I hope is that they ramp up the horror aspect of the army for the 5th ed. codex and emphasize how far the CSMs have fallen. Rampant use of Xenotechnology, Daemons bound to machines and flesh, vile warmachines powered by souls... the Chaos Codex has infinite possibilities, they really need to take a step back and re-think their entire approach.

komando
26-03-2010, 04:38
Personally I love chaos.I think that they are really cool looking models.:D

Logarithm Udgaur
26-03-2010, 04:56
I'd like to see a chaos list that represents CSM as mortals of chaos. A dozen high powered mini heroes and overwhelming waves of fodder, death engines, and transdimensional fiends... and a few squads of younger marines if you want to go meq heavy.


What you describe is nearly exactly what the old LatD list was. Unfortunately that list was squashed by GW as part of their "GW Approved Fun Only" policy.

(In all fairness it could just be the people I play with)

So if you have a world eaters or blood pact army you can't have bloodthirsters, hounds or bloodletters?
The Pact doesn't need god-specific demons. It could be kinda cool, but all the ones mentioned in the fluff are generic. They do need Chaos Hounds though.

What I hope is that they ramp up the horror aspect of the army for the 5th ed. codex and emphasize how far the CSMs have fallen. Rampant use of Xenotechnology, Daemons bound to machines and flesh, vile warmachines powered by souls... the Chaos Codex has infinite possibilities, they really need to take a step back and re-think their entire approach.Wholeheartedly this. Pretty much everything you said, but mostly this.

MEPHISTONSRAGE
26-03-2010, 05:01
For those of you that yearn for the LatD lists, and even some other really well balanced and thought out lists, check out http://www.tempusfugitives.co.uk/ .

Its well thought out and gives you loads of options.
As for our beloved Chaos Legions, I guess I need to get my hands on the Siege of Vraks to see the Alpha Legion stuff. I'm all about the Night Lords, but like seeing the potentials of the others.

Whenever they get around to Chaos Marines again, I hope they remake the Special Characters and add a few more. Some legion specific wargears, and some heavy support and elite choice differentation. I've read alot of neat things in this thread, and hopefully the powers that be in England will take some to heart.

Separation of Chaos in Fantasy made sense, and even separation of the Daemons in 40K to an extent. Though I loved the depth of what you could create with 3.5.
And Daemon Princes? How I miss them. DeviantApostle mad e agood point about these guysshould be beasts. I know in the current incarnation of the book they have issues, though they still play well. But after seeing how they have done it in SW's and BA's, I think the end result will be a very pleasing one.

Cognitave
26-03-2010, 05:44
The Codex doesn't even need full Legion Rules (though I'd love them, so damn much). I think a simple Dedication rule set would enhance the book as a whole. What's depressing is that you can play a really all-inclusive chaos list and do really well, but if you dedicate to one God, you get no real benefit to it. Normally, that's just a codex (i.e. special characters in the Space Marine book), but in Chaos, it makes ZERO sense as to why a Chaos God wouldn't reward an army full of extremely devout and dedicated followers.

Mephistonsrage, I do agree. It would be nice if you could mark a daemon (lesser or greater), and it gained properties (i.e +1 T, +1 W, -1 I, poisoned attacks for nurgle) according to the mark. But yes, it was a smart move on GW's part to avoid the previous Word Bearers cheese.

Mannimarco
26-03-2010, 06:17
im looking through my old 3.5 dex (ahh nostalgia) and yes there are some bad build that can be made using it however I would argue that some of the current books are infinately more cheesy than 3.5

Ivellis
26-03-2010, 06:25
I really miss how much you could customize your lords, people say there was only a few builds that everyone took. I took a different build almost every game, it was one of my favorite parts of Chaos.

Vedar
26-03-2010, 06:59
I just had a good look throught the 3.0 Codex. It is almost like they stripped out most of the cool stuff from 3.0 and made 4.0. It seems like 3.5 was just something they did not want to deal with so they went back to a bland very boring 3.0 codex. Sad really, most of the overpowering things in 3.5 and now in the Space Marine codex. I think without a few thing like the Siren Prince the 3.5 codex would be on par with any 5th Ed codex.

Born Again
26-03-2010, 07:12
It's odd how many people are now saying that what the want is hordes of cultists with CSM as Elites and HQ's, but the reason we ended up with CSM as an army unto themselves is because back when they wrote the 2nd edition codex, they took a look at the list contained in the 2nd edition boxed game (that had everything thrown in together) and saw that the majority of people took mostly CSM, with some daemons thrown in on the side. Now people want the opposite... I wonder if GW will see this and react accordingly, or keep pushing CSM and potentially introduce some form of LatD again to cater to those who want them?

DeeKay
26-03-2010, 12:15
For Chaos, I think it all comes down to perspective.

People say they want a LatD list, but there are some out now in the Siege of Vraks books and the old EoT book. Tournament legal, hell no. Playable, yes.

I would like to say that I thought seperating the Chaos books has introduced more problems than it solved. When Daemons became their own self-contained force, CSM lost out on their niche and IMO became little more than emo space marines. However, despite this I cannot see much good of a reunion at this point. With all the retconned fluff, new units and SCs they have had to throw in to flesh out daemons, it will get real ugly real quick if they were to merge into an all-singing, all-dancing list.

What I would propose is a slight change in focus away from the renegades side of things and a SLIGHT shift towards the Legions. Easy enough to do, simply allow units with a mark to be upgraded to World Eaters, Death Guard, etc. World Eater upgrade provides +1WS, Furious Charge and Rage. That way, you can have your units of World Eater Terminators being truely different from the run of the mill renegades. Obviously there would have to be a mitigating part in there to limit their use, such as Troops so upgraded become Elites and units in other FOC slots cannot upgrade unless the HQ leading the army (the most expensive usually works) has the same upgrade. the other Legions can be more easily represented with the Chaos book as is than the more specifically marked ones.

In the way suggested above, you can have the EC havocs with blastmasters back but your force cannot include Death Guard as well. As for daemons in a CSM army, simply reintroduce some of the more basic ones from the Daemons book. Add some variety and an incentive to use daemons and people will use them.

With regards,
Dan.

Born Again
26-03-2010, 15:11
Good thoughts on how a list could work Dan, except for the daemons. I still think they should remain generic, though able to be given a Mark. So, give them the Mark of Khorne for +1A, but they don't get Hellblades or any other Chaos Gifts, keep that as something unique to the daemon army.

Setesh
26-03-2010, 17:49
nuts to that i want to be able to run a full marine force still. Theres plenty of fluff that says this still happens.

Prokrustes
26-03-2010, 18:28
Well I guess a pure CSM force would be the part where renegades make sense...
Or we use our thousand year old vets but they would have to be all around better and MUCH more expensive points wise then normal marines..

Mannimarco
26-03-2010, 18:33
indeed there is, theres just as much fluff out there with hordes of cultists

this is why codex LATD is a must, it keeps people who want to play marines happy and lets the LATD players have their fun as well )without shelling out for IA: Vraks)

the main problem shouldnt be trying to include LATD in a CSM dex as this could be open to all kinds of abuse (huge cultist meatshields giving your CSMs a cover save, even though cover saves are everywhere nowadays anyway). The main thing should be finding a happy half way point that lets people play latter day renegades AND legions because right now its sad what the legions have become: my death guard are not a bunch of freaking mercenaries who sell out and follow a slaaneshi prince!

there should be some kind of benifit to actually following a fluffy pure legion army, right now I can take nothing but noise marines if I wanted, I could call it an EC army but it would do nothing or I could take a lash prince or 2, some plague marines and as many obliterators and vindicators as I can afford and have a much better army dispite it being wrong in terms of background

Harbinger
26-03-2010, 19:27
Just my two cents, but Chaos can wait for a new Codex. Ours isn't that old. let the other armies have theirs redone first. As many have said, its layout kind of set the stage for the current ones.

Second, anyone who doesn't think Chaos can be done in one Codex, look at 2nd edition Black Codex and 2nd edition Codex Chaos. They had CSM, non-generic daemons, and cultists and mutants (now LatD). All the Legions can be represented. All three factions can be in one Codex list, it might take a few special rules to make such a list tournament worthy (I don't play tournaments so I can't say for certain).