PDA

View Full Version : How Often do you see "counts as" characters?



SandQueen
22-03-2010, 04:35
Pretty straight forward question. In playing in general how often do you see "counts as" characters? Examples would be:

-A IG Commander that the player chooses to use the rules for Creed for
-A Vulkan model with the chapter marks filed off and painted up for the Imperial Fists

"Counts as" can cover a wide range, especially when it comes to characters. Some people do extensive conversions, others dont. My question though is how often do the rest of you see them? Whether it be in tournaments, friendly games, or just pick-up events at a local store how common would you say "counts as" characters are?

LordofWar1986
22-03-2010, 04:37
I've only seen one person at my LGS that uses a "count as" character for his SM's. He doesn't really use that army anymore, so it's never been a big deal.

Mannimarco
22-03-2010, 04:39
A lot, I'd kill for a character to be converted or have the chapter icons filed off but all I get out here is vulkan painted blue/red/undercoated/not painted at all

MadHatter
22-03-2010, 05:11
I have a friend who uses counts as for what ever he feels like playing for the day.

Draconian77
22-03-2010, 05:15
All the time. I can't see any problem with reasonable acts of "counts as". Heck, you pretty much have to use "counts as" with the new Tyranid book given that a lot of the units don't have models yet. :D

MajorWesJanson
22-03-2010, 05:16
I have a Calgar converted (icons removed, legs replaced) and plan to paint the Creed Model in my Guard's colors. I'm also slowly converting a few other models by removing insignia, including Pedro, Telion, and Lysander.

InsideReticle
22-03-2010, 05:19
I see it a lot. Counts-as and proxying are pretty common at my store, and I have used that to test out some different builds.

I don't see the issue with counts-as if the model in question is appropriate. IG commander as Creed, fancy SM TH/SS as Lysander, Ultramarine Vulkan, whatever. It's a game. The fluff is the fluff, the game is the game. They are separate. How they are combined is the prerogative of each individual player.

Creeping Dementia
22-03-2010, 05:26
I see it all the time. Ironically its always Vulkan or Eldrad. It's pretty annoying to be seeing Eldrad or Vulkan in half the games I play, but theres not much I can do about it.

mughi3
22-03-2010, 05:38
As has already been said, counts as is a great way to test out army ideas, since 40K is such an expensive hobby you wanna find out if you like the build before you throw down the cash.

Heck i even have an entire counts as army because the mechanicum doesnt have an army outside BFG. it's all pretty WYSYWIG as much as i can make it i just use mechnicus models and SW rules.

As long as both players know what is what and what they do i don't see it as a problem.

Blink
22-03-2010, 05:48
Some Necron models are ridiculously expensive to get a full squad... like Immortals and Pariahs... so I just stacked two guns on a warrior to make a comparable Immortal, and modeled a staff-like thing on Flayed ones to make them Pariahs.

But prior to this, I always simply "counts-as"'d them so I could do things like use the Immortal formation in Apocalypse, which would cost over $400 otherwise.

Blink
22-03-2010, 05:48
Also with so many Tyranid models non existent right now, it's hard for them to NOT have proxies.

Inquisitor Engel
22-03-2010, 07:05
Also with so many Tyranid models non existent right now, it's hard for them to NOT have proxies.

This is what green stuff was made for...:eyebrows:

Conversions prior to release almost ALWAYS look better than the final product.

My 5th Company Captain stands in for Kantor. I have a specially converted model for Vladimir Pugh that uses Marneus Calgar's rules. I'm currently painting a conversion from Commander Culn that will be my Vulkan (terminator armour for the obvious save and a GIANT SPEAR.)

Blink
22-03-2010, 09:18
This is what green stuff was made for...

That's a lot of models and add-ons to green stuff together. Besides, if you're just in it for the game and not the hobby, there's no way you should be expected to spend all that time modeling The Parasite of Mortrex, Mycetic Spores, wings, boneswords, etc, just to make a playable army. I don't blame anyone who wants to use a warrior for Parasite, SM Drop Pods for Spores, Flyrant for the Harpy, and other understandable substitutes.

252nd Fire Dragoon
22-03-2010, 09:39
Aloha,
Im trying to make every single special character (for fun) of the IG codex for my Dragoons. out of the twelve, I have 4 painted (creed count as didn't look comandy enough :p) and two unpainted. It's always fun to make a count as character based on your imagination and fluff.

brightblade
22-03-2010, 10:39
I have a custom Autarch to lead my craftworld who counts as Yriel.

The master of my Half Bloods (a Blood Angel successor chapter) is a 'counts as Dante'

As long as it is clear what they are and a little effort has gone into it, I think it is cool. Gotta use somebody's stats for that cool mini you made. At the same time not everyone has a talent for conversion, so repainting Kantor to be the master of your own chapter is cool too.

But using Vulkan as an Ultramarine just seems wrong. Almost, dirty, somehow.....:p

Simo429
22-03-2010, 10:48
if its a new army someone is starting out with i dont see a problem with it

when i started my wolves but didnt have any wolfgaurd terminators yet i used my BT terminators for it, no one at my gaming group had a problem because they new id eventually get around to doing them which i plan to during easter

brightblade
22-03-2010, 11:01
Well, there are several issues.

i) 'Counts as' because you have just started and need to proxy until you get it made.

Surely no-one can get upset by this?

ii) 'Counts as' to get a character that fluffwise you wouldn't have (Vulkan as an Imperial Fist?)

iii) 'Counts as' to give a cool model you have made, for a bespoke army, rules.

The only one I rankle at is the fluff one. In the example above if you wanna be Fists then you have Lysander, if you wanna be Salamanders then you have Vulkan. Don't mix. If you like the way Vulkan plays (on a rules standing) then simply play Salamanders...

I have no problem someone using Vulkan as the leader of the Flaming Heart Chapter of marines. A chapter that they are making up but to use him as an Ultramarine or Crimson Fist or any other pre-existing Chapter's guv'nor just seems weird?

jt.glass
22-03-2010, 11:33
I use them quite a lot, although I probably shouldn't as they are rarely seem to be worth their points.

In Saturday's Apocalypse game, I used c/a Calgar, Kantor, and Tellion, (although family illness interfered with my plans, so only Calgar had a proper converted model, and that kinda sucked).

If I was a superstitious type, I'd say that the dice gods favour our opponents much better and more completely painted army...



The only one I rankle at is the fluff one. In the example above if you wanna be Fists then you have Lysander, if you wanna be Salamanders then you have Vulkan. Don't mix. If you like the way Vulkan plays (on a rules standing) then simply play Salamanders...What if you already have 5000 points of imperial fists painted up? I made up my own chapter because I wanted to, but I don't think I should get any rules advantage over someone who went with one of the extablished ones.


jt.

Brother_Falco
22-03-2010, 11:37
I've built my own Vulkan, Sicarius, Shrike, Lysander, all of the Wolves SCs except Canis, a Sanguinor, an Astorath and when I can get access to the Sanguinary Guard bits I'll build my own Dante too.
I like HQ models, I don't like metal to play with or to paint and I like converting almost as much as I like playing, hence a replication in plastic of virtually all the characters, even if I don't use most of them because they don't suit my playstyle.
I'd be a little squiffy about people presenting a generic HQ model and announcing it's X Character, but anyone who follows the approach I have and builds a WYSIWYG model for a given character, I'd have no problem with it.

marv335
22-03-2010, 11:43
I've used Gazzy a few times as a MA Warboss, I see it every now and again.
Some people like to use nice looking models.
I've got the Lysander model painted up for my Crimson Fist army as a genereic TA captain.

Hunger
22-03-2010, 12:01
The fluff is the fluff, the game is the game.

Ugh, I hate this philosophy. If you ignore the game's richly detailed background you end up with nothing more than a game of chess with some pretty playing pieces.

The fluff IS the game, and to me, using a character in a different army is just unacceptable. I am sick of facing generic Space Marine armies with Lysander - just because he is wearing power armour it does not mean he is mercenary Marine. How about fielding him in an Imperial Fists army for a change?

That said, I am all for using alternative models to represent similar personalities - my traitor guard army incorporates miniatures from a wide variety of different ranges and other miniatures companies. A good looking army built on the 'counts-as' principle is fine with me, as long as there is no deliberate attempt to model for advantage.

brightblade
22-03-2010, 12:04
Ugh, I hate this philosophy. If you ignore the game's richly detailed background you end up with nothing more than a game of chess with some pretty playing pieces.

The fluff IS the game, and to me, using a character in a different army is just unacceptable. I am sick of facing generic Space Marine armies with Lysander - just because he is wearing power armour it does not mean he is mercenary Marine. How about fielding him in an Imperial Fists army for a change?

That said, I am all for using alternative models to represent similar personalities - my traitor guard army incorporates miniatures from a wide variety of different ranges and other miniatures companies. A good looking army built on the 'counts-as' principle is fine with me, as long as there is no deliberate attempt to model for advantage.

I can only agree with Hunger. Time for a sandwich, methinks?;)

htj
22-03-2010, 12:11
I can only agree with Hunger. Time for a sandwich, methinks?;)

Me too. I use the Chenkov rules with the Confessor Kyrinov model to send in waves of Empire flagellants with lasguns which count as conscripts. When use for fluff and character, I'm all for it. But using 'counts as' just for the rules advantage leaves me cold.

Mojaco
22-03-2010, 12:21
I use count-as myself quite often. My Eldar have fielded both Eldrad and Yriel (though not often), and my Redemptionists army is based around Iron Hand Straken, though looking nothing like him.

Count-as can be just as great for background-gamers as well as competitive gamers. A unconverted Vulkan model in an Ultramarine army bugs me too, but those same rules on a cool, fitting converted model is more than fine!

NightrawenII
22-03-2010, 12:47
Depends on the army.
The SM, Eldar and Guard armies all have "count as" SC. The Orks, SoB and Chaos not so much. Also this:

A lot, I'd kill for a character to be converted or have the chapter icons filed off but all I get out here is vulkan painted blue/red/undercoated/not painted at all

DaSpaceAsians
22-03-2010, 12:58
I don't really care honestly unless if it's over the top such as Abbaddon with UM colors ugh.

Killgore
22-03-2010, 13:02
I use the Dkok Quarter master model as a Guardsman Marbo in my Steel Legion force. The catachan model didnt suit my force of trench coat wearing gasmasked killers, where the Quartermaster model looks very very scary with his skull face and ribcage chest armour, perfect psychology to scare your foes before he lobs a demo charge at them.

I also converted my Own Great Wolf to be a counts as Grimnar, I made sure the weapons were the same such as the double bladed axe and storm bolter. As long as the weapons and wargear are the same I have no problems with 'counts as'.

I know other people who use converted models 'counts as' for their Spacemarine force, example being the Medusa Captain Sicarus model with Lightning claws with a old style jumppack as 'Shrike' in an Imperial fists force.

Kurisu313
22-03-2010, 13:04
The fluff IS the game, and to me, using a character in a different army is just unacceptable.

Completely disagree.

The named characters are just templates given a name. GW even explicitly states this themselves.

My guard has almost all the characters. Are you telling me that out of a quadrillion guardsmen, no two share the same or similar abilities. My marines have none, as all my captains are present and accounted for with names, backgrounds and models.

It's not my ideal, but it's the way GW have taken recently. There's no rules or fluff abuse. "Why is Lysander leading your Salamanders?" "Well that's actually Forgemaster Argos" Fine. Why should I care if the army is painted green or yellow?

Taking a character, and using him as that character and just plonking him where he doesn't belong is annoying, but I've never seen it, and it's still fine by the rules.

I do not like characters getting used just because they're too good. That's annoying and a completely seperate problem. I'd love to fight Marneus or Sicarius, but it's always bloody Vulkan or Shrike.

Ironhand
22-03-2010, 13:23
Since we don't allow special characters except in Apocalypse games I frequently see the reverse - someone using a special character model as a normal Warboss, Captain, whatever.

SanguinaryDan
22-03-2010, 13:25
All the time. You people have seen the old Lemartes model.:cries: Great background plus a good points value wasn't going to be held back by one of the worst marine figures ever made.

Ph4lanx
22-03-2010, 13:39
I see it all the time at my store. I even run it myself, having taken the rules for Shrike and made my own model of him. Granted, in my army he is Captain Aegius of the 4th Company Blood Ravens, but still... ;)

Lord Damocles
22-03-2010, 13:55
I have Counts As Deciever
Counts As Yriel
Counts As Belial
Counts As Lemartes
Counts As Tycho
Counts As Stern
Counts As Marbo

I'm working on Counts As Sanguinor
Counts As Seth
Counts As Dante
Counts As Calgar

sprugly
22-03-2010, 15:02
i have a counts as Vulkan for my home brew scarlet dragons.

sprugly

Egaeus
22-03-2010, 15:19
Ugh, I hate this philosophy. If you ignore the game's richly detailed background you end up with nothing more than a game of chess with some pretty playing pieces.

But fundamentally this is all it is. Sure, there's background to give a semblance of purpose to the game, but it's all fictional. This isn't like we're playing Napoleonics or WWII where we have a detailed factual history. It's all completely made up, and can be changed at GW's (and to some extent the players') whim(s).

So if you tell me I can't use "Ruleset A" with "Playing Piece B" because it isn't the right colour then I'm probably going to laugh and think you aren't someone I want to play with for taking the game a bit too seriously. :p

Corrode
22-03-2010, 16:33
I use an unconverted, counts-as Lysander... in my Crimson Fists army. I just say he's Captain Cortez after a promotion - he's a 4-wound Eternal Warrior with a slow, hurty weapon and a hefty invulnerable save, it's close enough for my purposes. Besides, a character covered in that many Fist symbols fits in just fine ;)

massey
22-03-2010, 16:36
I don't see it much. A lot of the players at the local store will see a character they like and build an army around him. So the guys who bring Vulkan or Shrike are usually playing Salamanders or Raven Guard.

I'm actually the one who uses a lot of counts-as. And even then, I haven't actually brought most of them in a game. I kitbashed several of the special characters together and had them painted up in Dark Angel colors. So I've got a DA Pedro Kantor (he's not Pedro, though, he's some guy who fought for the Dark Angels at some point in their 10,000 year history), a DA Sicarius, a DA Vulkan, and a DA Lysander/Belial. Dark Angel Shrike isn't built yet, nor is Dark Angel Calgar (instead of power fists, he'll have two Cloud-sized two-handed swords), but they'll come along eventually. I don't use special characters much because I usually go with the cheapest HQ choice possible. I'm a big fan of the standard Chaplain, because he's very cheap and has a power weapon. 200 point characters don't appeal much to me, but I want to have the figures just for the sake of variety.

Really though, if the characters are balanced for game play (and I'm not gonna get into whether they are or not), then it shouldn't matter if they're painted red, blue, or green. I think the issue most people have is the sameness of facing the same armies over and over again. That just means you have unimaginitive opponents. If they weren't using Vulkan, they'd be using whatever list the internet told them to. This is exactly why I like having counts as. Because I can use Vulkan today, Kantor tomorrow, a regular Chaplain next week, and the White Scars guy in a month. All of those guys will affect the way my army plays, so I can get the most mileage out of my miniatures. With one character, entirely new combat applications are opened up, and I don't have to collect a new army to do it, either.

Thud
22-03-2010, 17:23
I do it sometimes with Eldrad. I usually don't have him in my armies, and I can't be bothered ordering the model from an online shop just so I can use it twice a year.

Inquisitor Engel
22-03-2010, 17:48
I have no problem someone using Vulkan as the leader of the Flaming Heart Chapter of marines. A chapter that they are making up but to use him as an Ultramarine or Crimson Fist or any other pre-existing Chapter's guv'nor just seems weird?

How is that any different? If you're espousing that each special character is unique enough to only exist ONCE EVER then you can't use Vulkan to represent Forgemaster Flamey McDeath in your Death Hunters army any more than I can use him as the displaced captain of the 1st Company (Given honourific "Captain of the Phalanx, Keeper of the Emperor's Light" upon the return of Lysander).

You can't have it both ways. Either the characters are entirely unique, or can feasibly represent many heroes of many chapters down the years. The Codex even suggests, outright, that you do so.

Would I use my count-as Vulkan along with my counts-as Kantor? Probably not (maybe in Apoc) but then again, the Ultramarines can throw down all of their dramatis personae in a 1500 point game...

rodmillard
22-03-2010, 18:18
I use a converted plastic captain as a "counts as" Kantor in my Deathwatch force - purely so that my sternguard count as scoring units (but I always check this is ok with my opponents and have an alternate list if not). Otherwise, I'm pretty squarely in the "SC model counts as generic HQ" camp.

brightblade
22-03-2010, 18:46
How is that any different? If you're espousing that each special character is unique enough to only exist ONCE EVER then you can't use Vulkan to represent Forgemaster Flamey McDeath in your Death Hunters army any more than I can use him as the displaced captain of the 1st Company (Given honourific "Captain of the Phalanx, Keeper of the Emperor's Light" upon the return of Lysander).

You can't have it both ways. Either the characters are entirely unique, or can feasibly represent many heroes of many chapters down the years. The Codex even suggests, outright, that you do so.

Would I use my count-as Vulkan along with my counts-as Kantor? Probably not (maybe in Apoc) but then again, the Ultramarines can throw down all of their dramatis personae in a 1500 point game...

Not really saying that the character only exist once but I chose the chapter I play (my own second founding Blood Angels, The Half Bloods) because I liked BA but also wanted to include some nice modelling opportunities for myself and also so I could justify, for myself, playing different styles of game. But I only use a counts as Dante as my chapter leader. I do find it odd that people choose say Ultramarines, I assume for the same reason I chose BA (surely people don't choose Ultras just because they like the colour blue?) and then use the Kantor model as their chapter master when the Ultras already have a great one. If you want to use Kantor as an ancient legendary leader of the Ultras then feel free but at least have the class to convert your own model.

Fluff is important to me but not for all. Ultimately as long as you aren't breaking rules and your opponent knows what is going on just go for it.

As for Apoc.... do what you like.

Ozendorph
22-03-2010, 19:10
SCs (much like every unit) is a template - a set of rules and stats, given a point value. With a little imagination, the models used to represent them on the table can and should vary.

Logarithm Udgaur
25-03-2010, 09:35
Every time I look at my army I see my counts as Col. Straken, Logarithm, leading his section of the Blood Pact into slaughter.

tsuruki
25-03-2010, 13:19
i use the count as rule wit hmy gashkhul thraka, its the gaskhul body on a wartrakk trakks, renamed and fluff made, he is my very own Warlord and has propper warlord rules, ghaskhul rules

Brother Loki
25-03-2010, 15:38
I use a plastic Deathwatch captain with Pedro's rules sometimes in larger games to command the Deathwatch detachment accompanying my Scythes of the Emperor.

My Guard army normally represents the Cadian 8th, and I use a variety of Cadian characters with them (Creed, Kell, Pask, Bastonne depending on the size of game). Soemtimes I use them as traitor Guard though, in which case I use different characters via counts-as. I use the Iron Hand Straken rules for my Alpha Legion cell commander, and Sly Marbo doubles for an Operative. I may also create a model for an Al'Rahem counts-as to give a platoon Outflank.

I'd much prefer to do these things without having to re-task named characters though - I'd prefer the ability to purchase special abilities for generic characters for example.

duffybear1988
25-03-2010, 15:42
I always convert special character if I use them as the normal figures are too 'standard' for my tastes. As long as they have suitable wargear/weapons and you tell the other player before the game then there is no problem.