PDA

View Full Version : Dark Elf Rant (sorry)



VonUber
23-03-2010, 03:47
I love dark elves, Allways have done since I started the hobby in 5th ed and after 6th ed they deserved everything they got. And to be honest, the dark elf list is only a cheesy army when fighting somthing over powered. the ring of hotec, only affects magic heavy armys and is easly dealt with by pulling the unit out of position, or using the lore of death spell to pick him out and kill him. As for the pendant dude, dont fight him, break his unit or murder it or hit him with the level 1 nurgle spell or somthing equiverlent. The ASF banner is considered cheesy.. its a T3 model with a 5+ save using it usaly and there is only 2 units short of a bsb that can use it, cold one knights and black guard. The desighn team were nice enough not to let executioners have it. The hydra banner isnt cheesy its 70points for +1A on every model for 1 round. Plus the guy holding it makes it uber expensive, and hes usualy in a unit of cold one knights anyway. And they can be easily dealed with, anyone with a great weapon can rip them a new one or anyone with a bow or hand gun can kill them without fail.

Hydras are I admit a little under priced for what they are, I still think they should of been 190points, but they can be easly dealed with, throw a fire ball its way, it usualy takes a few wounds off it, or failing that throw some 1+ save knights at it with a warbanner and watch it break and flee the table.

Yes dark elves can be a hard army, yet they can be easly dealed with.

Sorry for the rant Im tired of people calling an army I hold dear penalised so much.

(Yes I do play other fantasy army's but dark elves are just cool, story wise and the way the army works and most of the models are very pretty)

ChaosVC
23-03-2010, 04:02
If you combine all the things you have just mentioned, you will find that the solution you have suggested is not going to work as you have wished so.:rolleyes:

SatireSphere
23-03-2010, 04:18
You're forgetting that they have the best fast cav in the game as core, always always strike first elites often with 3 attacks a piece, very competitive magic (top 5 or so), the most reliable war machine in the game (the RBT), and the above crazy stuff you mentioned.

They are easily two or three in terms of power, depending on how you gauge Vampire Counts.

shakedown47
23-03-2010, 04:25
So just to clarify...

You advocate dealing with the ring bearer by using magic against him...

You think that a leadership 8 unit with one attack a piece would be overpowered if it could take the ASF banner, yet a leadership 9, Stubborn, ITP unit with two str 4 attacks each (that always re-roll misses) should fall into most peoples' comfort zones...

You suggest the best way to deal with a unit of Cold Ones with the Hydra Banner is by getting a unit of footsloggers armed with great weapons into combat with it (wonder who will get the charge...)

And you think the hydra is only underpriced by 15 POINTS!!!!

C'mon man, if you're going to troll and try to start a flame war, you have to at least TRY to make it look like you're serious about what you're saying.

Tarliyn
23-03-2010, 04:27
your right if a dark elf army only takes one of those things then it is not really overpowered but when they take all of or even 2-3 of those things it starts getting silly

also just throwing this out there

the pendant is always a silly item, imo it never should have been designed or should have been sorcerers only

and

the hydra is way undercosted for what it does. Easily the second best monster in the game (the hell pit is the first)

the dark elf army is pretty much the epitome of the sum is great than the parts in warhammer and that is what makes it pretty rediculous not the individual pieces like how you tackled it.

Kevlar
23-03-2010, 04:38
your right if a dark elf army only takes one of those things then it is not really overpowered but when they take all of or even 2-3 of those things it starts getting silly

also just throwing this out there

the pendant is always a silly item, imo it never should have been designed or should have been sorcerers only

and

the hydra is way undercosted for what it does. Easily the second best monster in the game (the hell pit is the first)

the dark elf army is pretty much the epitome of the sum is great than the parts in warhammer and that is what makes it pretty rediculous not the individual pieces like how you tackled it.

The hell pit is a nice monster, but how exactly is it better than a tooled out greater demon or a dragon (with requisite killy lord character atop).

meneroth
23-03-2010, 04:43
the whole army is T3 (with one exception)............

I like DE because they are viable in both forms of warhammer, competitive and friendly. personally, i think all armies should be similar. your playing your friend or some guy at a pick up game and dont take all the items listed above, pick one or two you like and try out some of the new ones. your at a tourny facing a slann/ETOG or two or your up against everyones favorite demon army or double hellpit army and you can easily compete.

other armies need to come up to par with the flexibility of lists DE have. it seems that only a few armies (lizards, skaven) have the same flexibility while most of the others (O&G, TK, OK) really can only field a limited variations on the same list while the upper tier, with the exception of demons, can easily put down a good variations of army types.

R-Love
23-03-2010, 05:08
The problem is that a an army is the sum of its parts. None of the things you mentioned are really that bad on their own (except Hotek and possibly the Hydra), It's when you take them together that things start to be a pain in the ass. For example, a unit of Black Guard with the Banner of Hag Graef and Hotek on the Champion (This is probably what people hate most. If it were 50 points It'd bother people much less, It does have certain disadvantages), A BSB with the Hydra Banner and an unkillable Dreadlord (I'm even being nice and not factoring in assassin). Suddenly you have a unit that Strikes first with 3 S4 attacks re-rolling misses plus the character's attacks, with Ld 10 (Ld 9 Stubborn), ITP, Re-rollable break test, which sits in the middle of a 24" bubble that you can't trust casting in. Plus the rest of his army. Makes sense that this might annoy people, doesn't it? :)

Some of your suggestions for dealing with these problems are laughable, too.


the hydra is way undercosted for what it does. Easily the second best monster in the game (the hell pit is the first)

I'd actually say this one is a bit up for debate. The Hellpit can be deadlier, yes, but it can also flop horribly. I'd personally say the Hydra is better simply because it is more reliable/maneuverable, as well as being cheaper.

However, don't get too worked up about how people react to your army. A large portion of the cries of cheese are grossly exaggerated, and internet hyperbole tends to paint everyone with the army in the same light. If your gaming buddies are the ones complaining, talk to them about it, it doesn't help anyone if it's no fun to play against an army, and internet rants rarely tend to solve these problems (or any, come to think of it)

In the end, play the army you enjoy, use the models and background you love, and don't get to worked up about the whiners on the internet :p

Stumpy
23-03-2010, 11:40
Dark elves have a few silly things (pendant, hydra, black guard, ring) and everything else is simply a little bit better than what everyone else has. Everyone has their gimmicks, that's fine, but on top of their gimmicks the dark elves have (for their points) the best fast cav, the best light infantry, possibly the best shooting, very good heavy cav, the best chariots, nearly the best magic, the best elite infantry, the best scout/skirmishers...
Its not any one component really that gets on people's nerves, its that its an internally balanced army where every single component is better than what most can field.
Pretty much, take a given unit in the dark elf army and compare to a similar unit in another army and you say 'oh, its not THAT much better,' but the army is the sum of its parts.

Odin
23-03-2010, 11:52
And you think the hydra is only underpriced by 15 POINTS!!!!


I think our house rules increased the price of the hydra by 80 - at the suggestion of our Dark Elf player. It's still horribly good.

Blizzinam
23-03-2010, 11:54
Tackling the units individually really makes them seem worse then they are. It's the combination that kills, not the individual elements.

Desert Rain
23-03-2010, 12:56
Most of their their stuff isn't horribly good on it's on, expect the ring and the hydra. The problem is that you can take all of the crazy stuff and still have points left, then it's starting to get ridiculous. I've played against friendly armies and those games have been great, but those against the unfriendly DE lists are pretty boring.
If you take more than 2 or 3 of the crazy stuff the DE army starts suffering from the 1+1=11 syndrome, and that's a problem

ZoomDog
23-03-2010, 14:28
This thread is funny. :)

Sygerrik
23-03-2010, 14:38
The hell pit is a nice monster, but how exactly is it better than a tooled out greater demon or a dragon (with requisite killy lord character atop).

Because it's only 250 points, about half or a third of what those characters will cost.

For the record, I play Skaven, and I would rather have a Hydra than a HPA. But not by much. It's a seriously nasty monster, being able to throw out that much S6 is pretty horrific.

Condottiere
23-03-2010, 14:38
It is - it's also shorter than I remember it.

Tarliyn
23-03-2010, 18:57
the whole army is T3 (with one exception)............

I hate when people give this reasoning for dark elves. Okay folks news flash, most things are t3 in this game not just the elves. Stop talking like it is some unique weakness of your army.

Sorry for the abbrassiveness I just really really hate that :evilgrin:

grumbaki
23-03-2010, 19:13
I just find it sad about how easy it would be to balance the army out.

* Just get rid of the Monster and Handlers rule for the hydra. If the handlers can be shot down, then the nasty monster has a good chance of becoming worthless. Also, if it can't run through terrain like that, it is balanced alot better as well.

* Pendant of Khaleth for casters only. Easy!

* Ring of Hotek: Works on spells cast on that unit only, or a single die roll of a 1 makes a miscast. Anything so that nearly all spells on anything of importance are too risky to even try.

* Up the points cost of the ASF banner so you need a BSB to carry it.

* Give shades a max unit size.

So just a few easy changes and the army is still dangerous, but the worst is stopped. Also I completley agree about 'elves are only toughness 3' argument. That goes for nearly my entire empire army, and look at our greatswords! Then again, we did get pigeon bombs, so I guess we are overpowered too. :p

Desert Rain
23-03-2010, 19:28
Empire are T3 5+ Sv most of the time just like elves are. That isn't the issue really. The issue is that elves, in most cases, costs 2 or 3 times the points of an empire models, with the save vulnerability.

Empire: cheap, T3, 5+ Sv

Elves: Expensive, T3, 5+ Sv

theunwantedbeing
23-03-2010, 19:54
Hydra...give it a 6th wound and make it 225pts, solved.
Pendant...make it under the strength of the attack, not equal to or under
Ring of hotek....dock the range to 6"
ASF banner...suck it up ya whiner, its only there because GW ballsed it up with the HE list

Or failing the item thing....make the other DE items more worth taking and quit the reluctance to allow unit champions access to items.
Potion of strength
Web of Shadows
Seal of Ghrond
Those 3 could all too eaisly have been 25pts and would have been a worthwhile substitute for the ring of hotek.

Similarly it would have been nice to have any other affordable ward save so we don't have to take the pendant if we want a ward. The talisman of protection is a joke item and the black amulet is just too expensive for the nerfed wound rebound effect it now has....

The problem with the hydra is that you save 25pts if you take it over 2 bolt throwers.
Dark riders do much the same job as bolt throwers do, and if you have those then you dont need the bolt throwers, you may as well get the hydra.
The only other reasonable big monster is the dragon, but thats a huge points sink.

If the DE list had lots of viable options then we'de see more varied armies.
But it doesn't, so we just see the same handful of builds.

Plus the power of darkness gets very useful when you have 4 maximum level mages at 2k, especially if you've just killed off the enemy mages or the enemy was daft enough to not turn up with loads of magical defence. (such is how warhammer works these days, all or nothing and nobody bothers with the inbetween anymore....not because it doesnt work, its just not as instantly gratifying).

Emeraldw
23-03-2010, 20:07
If the DE list had lots of viable options then we'de see more varied armies.
But it doesn't, so we just see the same handful of builds.


That isn't because the army is bad though. It is because some units are just that good. Improving the "weak" options doesn't make the list any less powerful, in fact it would make it just like the deamon codex.

Normal repeater xbow mean aren't a bad buy at all. Spearmen aren't terrible at 6 (7 with shield) and you can throw in an assassin to make sure they get lots of kills. I admit they have trouble against chaos warriors or saurus but otherwise they aren't so terrible for their cost. The problem with core isn't the choices so much, as the fact that dark riders just work out well.

Same is true with the special choices. Executioners aren't THAT bad, nor are witch elves. Black Guard are just an abomination of undercosting and the ASF banner just makes it even worse. Cold Ones Knights are fine too.

The rare slot has the dreaded Hydra, which we all know is evil. But it isn't like 4 RBT's is that much better.

To finish it out, the problem isn't the list overall, its the good stuff in the list. The list would be fine without some of the crazy stuff.



(such is how warhammer works these days, all or nothing and nobody bothers with the inbetween anymore....not because it doesnt work, its just not as instantly gratifying).

Huh? I don't see how medium magic gets you anywhere. Large magical armies will overpower you and won't get you the same kind of damage against no magic armies.

TheOneWithNoName
23-03-2010, 20:12
Makes you wonder if OP even plays the game. I play DE and they are imba powerful.

theunwantedbeing
23-03-2010, 20:15
Huh? I don't see how medium magic gets you anywhere. Large magical armies will overpower you and won't get you the same kind of damage against no magic armies.

Medium magic doesnt work vs heavy magical defence, not to begin with anyway. You need to wear down the enemy by other means before it starts to be worth it.
You have to be more careful with it as well.

I guess you could say it requires skill to use, unlike all out heavy magic.


Makes you wonder if OP even plays the game. I play DE and they are imba powerful.

Oh he plays and they are indeed imba powerful.

Skyros
23-03-2010, 20:15
The ring of Hotek is an abomination and the Hydra is undepriced by at least 50 points.

There's lots of other 'really good' stuff about Dark Elves (ASF Blackguard/Cold one Knights, best fast cavalry in the game as core, excellent magic, etc) but those two stand out as absurdly broken.

N1AK
23-03-2010, 20:21
As for the pendant dude, dont fight him, break his unit or murder it or hit him with the level 1 nurgle spell or somthing equiverlent.....

Yes dark elves can be a hard army, yet they can be easly dealed with.


Non-comp tournament results since the release of the book show Dark Elves to be clearly better than every other army except Daemons, but your watertight counter strategies and summary clearly show the folly of letting facts guide judgement :rolleyes:

Brotheroracle
23-03-2010, 20:23
Dark elves have a few silly things (pendant, hydra, black guard, ring) and everything else is simply a little bit better than what everyone else has. Everyone has their gimmicks, that's fine, but on top of their gimmicks the dark elves have (for their points) the best fast cav, the best light infantry, possibly the best shooting, very good heavy cav, the best chariots, nearly the best magic, the best elite infantry, the best scout/skirmishers...
Its not any one component really that gets on people's nerves, its that its an internally balanced army where every single component is better than what most can field.
Pretty much, take a given unit in the dark elf army and compare to a similar unit in another army and you say 'oh, its not THAT much better,' but the army is the sum of its parts.

Dark Elves do not have the best chariots, that goes to the Razorgor chariot, then Chaos, then a Lion chariot. Dark elves have good shooting but not the best I'd say WE, dwarfs, Empire all can pull out a stronger shooting phase. As for best elite infantry I'm going to put swordmasters and chaos warriors a notch above black guard.

Now I'm not saying DE are not a very good army, but the certainty don't top everything as you described. The problem is there is a couple of builds that really exploit the advantages of a strong list and most of the problems extend to some very good (under-costed) magic items. Hydras should probably be 250 points. The dark elf list has allot of potential synergy which makes it strong, barring under-costed magic items and an undercosted monster its not that unbalanced compared to daemons or VC. The only thing that stops WoC from being a top tier army is lack of fliers and lack of a skirmishing unit (I'm looking at you forsaken!).

I started playing DE in 6th and as many of you know the 6th ed DE book was horribly underpowered when it came out I'm glad we got a boost but sad that overall game balance still has not been attained but oh well, wishing for that is like wishing for world peace. And as we all know that won't happen till after the robo-apocalypse.

Malorian
23-03-2010, 20:50
Makes you wonder if OP even plays the game. I play DE and they are imba powerful.

When I started playing fantasy I played brets and I couldn't stand how many people said I won only because I was playing a cheesy army.

I tried telling them to try bait/redirect/counter tactics but my opponents just kept on trying to hold against the charge with big blocks and so I just kept smashing them.


Now there is no doubt that DE has some nasty combos but I think what the OP is ranting about is that many people will label a DE player as a chessy powergamer without even giving them a chance.

I've played many DE players who didn't go for the best deathstars or the best black dragon combo and have had wonderful games with them.

My guess is the OP would be one of these people.

VonUber
23-03-2010, 22:08
I am not a power gamer.
Has the thought occured to any of you that the high end dark elf players are just good tacticians? as from playing them in 6th ed you needed to work on your tactics to win? I like to think I win by superior tactics and I do take the ring of hotec because I currently only have a level 1 with the seal for magical defence in 2.000pts and I usualy play vs magic heavy armys.

Now the allways strike first black guard unit (usualy 15 strong), has anyone thought about shooting it to death? Most armys can gun it down within a round.
The same to the ring of hotec unit. And yes throw 2 dice at a spell that picks him out you might not miss cast. Also theres other ways to deal with him... such as run up and hit him with somone? he cant have a ward if its on a charicter and if its on a unit champion its either got a 2+ save or a 5+ save so anything with combat ability can take care of him. Why not take a Hero on a steed with a lance or a flying mount over a level 2 to kill the ring holder? Its seriously not hard to do!

Tarliyn
23-03-2010, 22:27
Empire are T3 5+ Sv most of the time just like elves are. That isn't the issue really. The issue is that elves, in most cases, costs 2 or 3 times the points of an empire models, with the save vulnerability.

Empire: cheap, T3, 5+ Sv

Elves: Expensive, T3, 5+ Sv

this whole statement is basically false. Lets take a look

Empire Core Guys

Empire Swordsmen and Spearmen /w shields are- both 6 points
Darkelf Spearmen w/shields- 7 points

With hatred, higher ws, higher leadership, and higher leadership I would certainly say that all that is worth an extra 1 point in cost and really should be more than 1 point.

empire handgunners, crossbowmen, archers- all 8 points
dark elf repeaters- 10 points

Again have hatred, higher bs, higher leadership, higher int, and the ability to buy a shield certainly all that again is certainly worth more than 2 points.

Huntsman (Empire Scouts)- 10 points
Shades- 16 points

Shades-
Again have hatred, higher bs, higher leadership, higher int, and the repeater cross bow is way better than a simple bow, esp when you consider that the shades have higher ws and the shades have access to great equipment: great weapon, xtra hand weapon, light armour. The huntsman are core though. So this one is closer to being even but the shades are still undercosted compared to huntsmen.

Knights Empire does have core knights, that is cool and something nice for them.

Free company- 5 points
the closest thing would be corsairs but since both corsairs and free company are considered awful this comparison is not nesscary

Empire Special Choices

Inner Circle Knights- 26 points
Cold One Knights- 27 points

Pistoliers- 18 points
Dark Riders- 17 points

Both are great fast cav. Dark Riders are core though. Again Dark Riders way better than 1 point would suggest.

Great Cannon/Mortar- 100 Points
Reaper- 100

Both have their uses but truth be told I would rather have a reaper than a cannon, way more versatile of a warmachine.

Greatswords- 10 points
Black Guard- 13 points
Executioners- 12 points

Again do I really have to spell this one out.

Empire Rare

Hellblaster/Hellstorm- 110
Reaper (again)- 100

Give me the reaper still. My hellblaster will blow up pretty much every game and the hellstrom does nothing 90% of the time, when it does it IS devastating though, lol.

Steamtank- 300 points
Hydra- 175

Even if they were priced the same I would still rather take the hydra I think. Get 3 wounds on the steam tank and it is worthless.

Dark elves are NOT 2-3 times more expensive. Maybe you meant are 2-3 points more expensive. But they are supposed to be an Elite army and they have pretty close to the same point cost as a horde army.


I am not a power gamer.
Has the thought occured to any of you that the high end dark elf players are just good tacticians? as from playing them in 6th ed you needed to work on your tactics to win? I like to think I win by superior tactics and I do take the ring of hotec because I currently only have a level 1 with the seal for magical defence in 2.000pts and I usualy play vs magic heavy armys.

Now the allways strike first black guard unit (usualy 15 strong), has anyone thought about shooting it to death? Most armys can gun it down within a round.
The same to the ring of hotec unit. And yes throw 2 dice at a spell that picks him out you might not miss cast. Also theres other ways to deal with him... such as run up and hit him with somone? he cant have a ward if its on a charicter and if its on a unit champion its either got a 2+ save or a 5+ save so anything with combat ability can take care of him. Why not take a Hero on a steed with a lance or a flying mount over a level 2 to kill the ring holder? Its seriously not hard to do!

And I am sure this has occured to all of us but to say Dark Elves are not over the top is absurd. Of course you CAN make friendly list with them. My main opponent is a D. Elf player and we have great games, but it is really easy to slip into the cheese without even realizing it. Dark Elves have 1 of the top 5 infantry, 1 of the top 5 magic phases, the best fast cav, 1 of the top 5 cavalry, and arguably the best monster in the game. I can hardly believe you honestly don't think they are over the top. Yes D. Elves had it rough in 6th ed but that doesn't justify overpowering an army with their next book.

Sorry for my rant, I get worked up easy, lol

Malorian
23-03-2010, 22:33
Now the allways strike first black guard unit (usualy 15 strong), has anyone thought about shooting it to death? Most armys can gun it down within a round.

I can't support you on this one.

Yes their weakness is shooting but only full gunlines would be able to totally wipe it out in a single round.

Most armies would struggle to wipe out such a unit before it makes it to combat.

VonUber
23-03-2010, 22:38
I can't support you on this one.

Yes their weakness is shooting but only full gunlines would be able to totally wipe it out in a single round.

Most armies would struggle to wipe out such a unit before it makes it to combat.

You can do it with 20 archers quite easily. Hardly A gunline.

Desert Rain
23-03-2010, 22:43
Dark elves are NOT 2-3 times more expensive. Maybe you meant are 2-3 points more expensive. But they are supposed to be an Elite army and they have pretty close to the same point cost as a horde army.
OK, I stand corrected. I confess that I don't know in great detail the pts costs of DE and Empire.
Compared to High Elves my point is a bit more valid. The elite elven units being about 3 times the cost of an empire trooper, or about 1,5 the cost of an elite empire soldier. Core are about 1,5 times more expensive.

So Dark Elves, 2-3 points more expensive than the Empire

High Elves, 1,5 - 2 times more expensive than the Empire

Fairer?

Malorian
23-03-2010, 22:44
You can do it with 20 archers quite easily. Hardly A gunline.

Ninja archers hit on a 2+, so 16.7 hit, 4+ to wound means 8.3 wounds, armor saves a third so 5.6 dead.

So even these magical ninja archers need 3 turns to wipe out the unit.

VonUber
23-03-2010, 22:53
Ninja archers hit on a 2+, so 16.7 hit, 4+ to wound means 8.3 wounds, armor saves a third so 5.6 dead.

So even these magical ninja archers need 3 turns to wipe out the unit.

I was playing a game VS high elves a few days ago. Turn 1, Archers shot my black guard (they deployed oposit and I didnt have a chance to put an annoyance unit infront of them and the dark rider shield was removed by a bolt thrower)
Turn 1, 20 shots, 10 hit, 5 wound, I Failed 4 saves, the next turn, 12hits, 10 wounds, i failed all the saves, I had my dread lord and the standard bearer left. Hardly a problem.

I still won the game with a SV.

And I dont do math hammer, Dice are random. I know they can be prodicted with maths but, its still a random dice, they can all roll 6s to hit, 6s to wound and 1 for saves. Its unlikly but it happens.

Cambion Daystar
23-03-2010, 22:56
I am not a power gamer.
Has the thought occured to any of you that the high end dark elf players are just good tacticians? as from playing them in 6th ed you needed to work on your tactics to win?

Please don't give me this superior tacticians bullcrap because it is pure nonsense.



Now the allways strike first black guard unit (usualy 15 strong), has anyone thought about shooting it to death?
Most armys can gun it down within a round.

Not true. Even a gunline has to put in a considerable part of it shooting to do that.



The same to the ring of hotec unit. And yes throw 2 dice at a spell that picks him out you might not miss cast.

Nice, a tactic that involves a 1-in-6 chance of blowing up a caster of yours. Try again.


Also theres other ways to deal with him... such as run up and hit him with somone? he cant have a ward if its on a charicter and if its on a unit champion its either got a 2+ save or a 5+ save so anything with combat ability can take care of him.

And that takes 2 gimped magic phases of yours to do



Why not take a Hero on a steed with a lance or a flying mount over a level 2 to kill the ring holder? Its seriously not hard to do!
Yes, sacrificing an expensive hero to kill a unitchampion with a cheap item :confused:
Brilliant tactic.



And I dont do math hammer, Dice are random. I know they can be prodicted with maths but, its still a random dice, they can all roll 6s to hit, 6s to wound and 1 for saves. Its unlikly but it happens.
And again someone who doesn't know what he is talking about...

Tarliyn
23-03-2010, 23:06
OK, I stand corrected. I confess that I don't know in great detail the pts costs of DE and Empire.
Compared to High Elves my point is a bit more valid. The elite elven units being about 3 times the cost of an empire trooper, or about 1,5 the cost of an elite empire soldier. Core are about 1,5 times more expensive.

So Dark Elves, 2-3 points more expensive than the Empire

High Elves, 1,5 - 2 times more expensive than the Empire

Fairer?


Sorry if I came of abrasive (again), lol. That t3 thing just really gets me for some reason, lol. Man I take my hobby way to seriously, lol.

Cambion Daystar
23-03-2010, 23:07
Also, what elite empire are we talking about? Because greatswords are kinda reallly overpriced.

Malorian
23-03-2010, 23:10
Man I take my hobby way to seriously, lol.

A hobby can never be taken too seriously.

Others are just too critical of the dedication of people they don't know.

VonUber
23-03-2010, 23:10
Please don't give me this superior tacticians bullcrap because it is pure nonsense.


Not true. Even a gunline has to put in a considerable part of it shooting to do that.


Nice, a tactic that involves a 1-in-6 chance of blowing up a caster of yours. Try again.

And that takes 2 gimped magic phases of yours to do


Yes, sacrificing an expensive hero to kill a unitchampion with a cheap item :confused:
Brilliant tactic.

Superior tactics nonsense? you sound like a sore looser.
Good players who want to shoot somthing to death will do so (I do, if i dont want to fight somthing I sit a unit of dark riders or harpys next to it so it cant march and shoot it to death with somthing)
Iv had 2 people use the lore of death spell on 2 dice to steal my ring bearers soul.
And what kind of idiot sends a charicter in unsuported. And most charicters on a steed if they do send them in unsuported flee on 3D6 and If they get away you can nuke the unit with what ever to stop a follow up charge.

Just a few simple examples.

EDIT:
On Your other post you point out math hammer. I dislike math hammer I dont care that it can work but I dont like it. Period I say its a bad thing. People who do an entire army based on math hammer are idiots ( I may offend allot of people with that remark). I went vs a guy at a tornoment who sat there with a calculator for every thing. Still kicked his ass.

Desert Rain
23-03-2010, 23:13
Sorry if I came of abrasive (again), lol. That t3 thing just really gets me for some reason, lol. Man I take my hobby way to seriously, lol.
No harm done :)


Also, what elite empire are we talking about? Because greatswords are kinda reallly overpriced.
I talked about greatswords since they are the closes equivalent to the HE/DE elite infantry unit.

Tarliyn
23-03-2010, 23:15
Also, what elite empire are we talking about? Because greatswords are kinda reallly overpriced.

If you were talking about my post I meant empire was the horde and dark elves is supposed to be the elite.

theunwantedbeing
23-03-2010, 23:33
Please don't give me this superior tacticians bullcrap because it is pure nonsense.
The point is more, if the DE players learnt to use their aweful 6th ed book, they'll be brutal with the 7th ed one, as its just the old book made more powerful.



Not true. Even a gunline has to put in a considerable part of it shooting to do that.
To do it in a single phase, yes. Nobody is sugguesting you do that, the point is its perfectly possible to cripple such a unit with shooting without needing to gunline.



Nice, a tactic that involves a 1-in-6 chance of blowing up a caster of yours. Try again.
And a 5/6 chance of not being affected, methinks you must be really bad at passing 2+ saves to have such a negative view of the 1/6 chance of being screwed over.



And that takes 2 gimped magic phases of yours to do
So? That's 4 turns left to take advantage. Whats the issue?



Yes, sacrificing an expensive hero to kill a unitchampion with a cheap item :confused:
Brilliant tactic.

Erm, you do realise that it's not always a case of model X has to kill its worth in points to be considered valuable. It's perfectly possible for an expensive model to die to a much cheaper one, and result in a net gain due to the benefits that were reaped from killing that one model.
This is especially true when using damned near anything to kill a ring of hotek bearing champion.

Tarliyn
23-03-2010, 23:39
And a 5/6 chance of not being affected, methinks you must be really bad at passing 2+ saves to have such a negative view of the 1/6 chance of being screwed over.


So? That's 4 turns left to take advantage. Whats the issue?

Normally by the end of the 3rd turn things are mostly in combat. So you actually only get 1 turn of good magic use.

Also with the hero killing a champion. Yeah things don't always have to make up their exact points. But does sacking a hero for a champ really sound like good tactics to you?

And with the 6th ed players developing superior tactics. 90% of the D. Elf players I encounter are not old 6th edition players. Now that may be high due to my area but I am betting there are more new D. Elf players than old ones.

Cambion Daystar
23-03-2010, 23:43
The point is more, if the DE players learnt to use their aweful 6th ed book, they'll be brutal with the 7th ed one, as its just the old book made more powerful.

But even beginners aren't having it that difficult to win vs experienced opponents with the book. Especially when can use a decent list they find on the internet with all the cheesy combos.



So? That's 4 turns left to take advantage. Whats the issue?

Erm, you do realise that it's not always a case of model X has to kill its worth in points to be considered valuable. It's perfectly possible for an expensive model to die to a much cheaper one, and result in a net gain due to the benefits that were reaped from killing that one model.
This is especially true when using damned near anything to kill a ring of hotek bearing champion.
And having to go trough all this effort just shows that the ring is way underpriced.

VonUber
23-03-2010, 23:48
I used the ring in 6th ed. And it was 20points and had a 6" Range . NOW the unit has hatred, they need to chase you down. And its a 12" range yes. IT is still very easy to pull away from the unit you want to cast at. To be honest for 20points you needed to put it on a noble, give him heavy armour, a shield, a lance, give him a crossbow and a sea dragon cloak and mount him on a cold one, a dark steed. Or If you wanted to put him on a peggy.
Thats 128-171points. And hes way harder to kill than a unit champion and has allot more killing power.

I didnt see anyone flaming the ring in 6th ed.

Cambion Daystar
23-03-2010, 23:50
Good players who want to shoot somthing to death will do so (I do, if i dont want to fight somthing I sit a unit of dark riders or harpys next to it so it cant march and shoot it to death with somthing)

Do not forget dark elves are far from incapable in the shooting phase.


Iv had 2 people use the lore of death spell on 2 dice to steal my ring bearers soul.

Very easy to dispel and dependant on getting a certain spell. Not a good tactic to rely on.



And what kind of idiot sends a charicter in unsuported.

And with what are you going to support your flying character?


And most charicters on a steed if they do send them in unsuported flee on 3D6 and If they get away you can nuke the unit with what ever to stop a follow up charge.

Since you charge, they are next nuking (or charging your unit and making it run away even further.

VonUber
24-03-2010, 00:10
Do not forget dark elves are far from incapable in the shooting phase.

Very easy to dispel and dependant on getting a certain spell. Not a good tactic to rely on.


And with what are you going to support your flying character?

Since you charge, they are next nuking (or charging your unit and making it run away even further.

I do shooting well with all my armys, not just my dark elves. to be honest my ogres do shooting well. They almost got rid of a unit of sword masters. Leadbeltchers FTW.

No its not a good thing to rely on, but it works and depends how many dice you have to dispel with, they throw 2 dice at it, I throw 3 (saving one for the Vauls unmaking bound spell or some other nasty) sometimes I stop it, some times I dont, It happens.

Well suporting flying chars is easy. I suport them with fast cav usualy. After all chaos fast cav is great. Its what, 15points for 16" move, S5As (flails) and throwing axes? They can suport a chaos charicter on disc with the ignore armour weapon quite easly. That combo would not only kill the ring holder but most probibly his unit of knights too.

And nuking is done in the next turn, If the char flees far enugh the first time, or in some cases after the follow up charge by the oponent its quite simple really. High elf prince with a lance charges the ring bearer on a elven steed with a lance heavy armour and shield (I wouldnt give him barding so he can have the 18" charge). The oponent needs to accept the challenge If theres no charicter in there, (maybe give him that nice talisman of loec item to make sure he does the job properly). Runs in beats the champion over the head, Can quite possibly win combat and over run on his own. Just in case stick some fast cav on the flank of the unit so you get another +1.And possibly another kill.

Eumerin
24-03-2010, 00:16
Just get rid of the Monster and Handlers rule for the hydra.

Given that the Monster and Handlers rule was written explicitly for the Hydra unit and it's the only unit that uses those rules, I'd say that's not likely to happen (though I wouldn't be surprised if they get rid of the "move through terrain like skirmishers" rule - that was apparently an accidental oversight). Also keep in mind that no one complained about the Hydra in the 6th edition army book, when it used the exact same rules. The problem isn't the Monster and Handler rules. The problem is the point cost. GW increased the Hydra's raw combat power to about where you would expect it to be (most everyone I knew thought I was wasting points when I put one in my 6th edition army) but didn't give it an appropriate points cost increase (iirc, they actually decreased the points cost slightly, though it's been ages since I double-checked the cost in the 6th edition book).


Empire Swordsmen and Spearmen /w shields are- both 6 points
Darkelf Spearmen w/shields- 7 points

They're both rank and file units - these days aka "speed bumps". Despite all of the supposedly undercosted advantages that you list for the Dark Elves, I have no real issue with the points cost. And the Dark Elf Spearmen points cost right now is probably a result of the High Elves having their spearmen reduced in cost when their book came out. The DE spears are probably pointed so that they match up well against their traditional adversaries.


... the ability to buy a shield certainly all that again is certainly worth more than ...

So now the ability to buy additional options for your units is worth points? That's a new one...


Steamtank- 300 points
Hydra- 175

Even if they were priced the same I would still rather take the hydra I think. Get 3 wounds on the steam tank and it is worthless.

If you can get 3 wounds on a Hydra then I have to ask why you can't get 2 more and finish it off? And even if you only get it down 3 wounds, you at least get half points for it. An Empire Steam Tank on the table more or less guarantees that there are 300 points that the opponent won't be getting.


Great Cannon/Mortar- 100 Points
Reaper- 100


Hellblaster/Hellstorm- 110
Reaper (again)- 100

I see that you included the RBT twice. Note that RBTs are NOT a special choice. They are RARE only. Also, the Empire players in my area all use cannons. They also seem very happy with them.

I could go on...





Having played both with and against Dark Elves, the simple fact of the matter is that the problems with the Dark Elf list come down to a few key areas, largely revolving around combinations with the Black Guard.

Making the Banner of Hag Graef (aka the ASF Banner) a Khainite item (and therefore only useable in a Witch Elf or Executioner unit) would probably have gone a long way toward solving the problems. It would also be somewhat fluffy, given what's known about that city.

VoodooJanus
24-03-2010, 00:38
The dark elves are not so overpowered they cannot be overcome. Yes, they have some sickeningly awesome units, models and upgrades. Do Ogres have a good chance of whipping some Dark Elf behind? Probably not, but a reasonably played Tomb King army just might stand a chance. I feel bad for the Asrai who have to go up against them though, as they are pretty much a duplication of a more expensive section of the Dark Elf army. Of course, we know that the Dark Elves came second, but that's neither here nor there.

My point, amongst my ceaseless ramblings, is that it all boils down to what is truly important to you as a gamer. Fantasy is not balanced, the armies are quite clearly on different levels, and while I would hope that it could be MORE balanced than it is at the moment, it will never have every army on equal footing. There are just too many variables to consider to reach such an equilibrium. Even 40k, which is slightly more balanced (dejure, at least. I'd argue that it's less so defacto, as the game essentially boils down to list choice these days, exacerbating any differences in power.) Even the super powerful armies will face a very obnoxious curveball if someone decides to play an army that's not similar to the current meta-game. This is not to say no one has the right to complain- they do, but it's important to enjoy the hobby outside of whipping some serious butt on the battlefield. That way, when you do kick the butt of that really obnoxious power gamer's list, it's all the more satisfying.

However (yes I'm continuing) it's also totally unnecessary, and in fact quite unfair, to brand everyone playing one of the armies that is part of the unholy trinity as some kind of megalomaniac, inbred, emotionally unstable, psychopathic loser who likely spends his time rubbing paste on his walls and tracking the movements of the Olsen twins' favorite drug mule (at least, any more than the rest of us WFBites :p). These armies provide another aspect to the hobby for both the competitive and narrative driven gamers- a challenge. For competitive gamers, the challenge is to find a tactic that works against them- it's an uphill battle, so every one that you win is all the more a victory for you. For narrative types, these armies not only offer a challenge, but also a story to follow- as you tend to see them more than others.

This is totally separate, however, from those awesome few gamers who DON'T cheese out their lists and build very off the wall builds (like my friend who built himself a slaanesh-only daemon army with no magic.) In fact- these 'imba' armies' presence ALLOWS for this kind of creative freedom. It unfortunately also allows for the kind of ridiculous overcompetitive tourny play. I am sure some find it fun, but I'd rather have an awesome time with some nice guys and get my butt roundly whooped (and I frequently do) than win all the time against people who only care about the W/L/D ratio.

Anyways- find a niche in the hobby for yourself- if you find yourself only enjoying winning, I have to say that you're going to be sorely disappointed when the next army book comes out and your beloved (and quite expensive) army becomes obsolete.

soots
24-03-2010, 00:42
To the OP, I dont blame you, i blame the author.

But blaming the author can get you banned on here lol.

VonUber
24-03-2010, 00:47
To the OP, I dont blame you, i blame the author.

But blaming the author can get you banned on here lol.

Thanks, but I think Gave Thorp is a great rules developer and writer for both background and game rules. To be honest he should of writen the entire 7th ed.
Not because of the good job he did on the dark elf book, just because I think hes very talented and was sad to hear he was fired from the company.

I think every army should be strong but balanced to within 1 step of eachother. I think the dark elf book is a good basis to work off, in my opinion the book was 90% right. In my opinion witch elves and witch elf chars should ASF, seriously they would soo kill a high elf spearmen before they struck. And corsairs are over priced. There my only problems with the dark elf book (other than the hydra should be 190pts)

soots
24-03-2010, 00:59
Thanks, but I think Gave Thorp is a great rules developer and writer for both background and game rules. To be honest he should of writen the entire 7th ed.
Not because of the good job he did on the dark elf book, just because I think hes very talented and was sad to hear he was fired from the company.

I think every army should be strong but balanced to within 1 step of eachother. I think the dark elf book is a good basis to work off, in my opinion the book was 90% right. In my opinion witch elves and witch elf chars should ASF, seriously they would soo kill a high elf spearmen before they struck. And corsairs are over priced. There my only problems with the dark elf book (other than the hydra should be 190pts)

I think i get you now :P

You compare empire foot sloggers Toughness to a Dark elf toughness and question the point difference....

You post this thread to stop people bagging how powerful Dark elves are. Yet everyone disagrees with you, and you say DE is the only balanced army in the game in which every other army should be balanced again, but isnt...

And to top it off, your handle is "Von Uber"

Hydra should be 275+pts imo. S5 Breath weapon with no misfire is worth 150pts alone.

Tarliyn
24-03-2010, 01:13
Oops double post

VonUber
24-03-2010, 01:15
I think i get you now :P

You compare empire foot sloggers Toughness to a Dark elf toughness and question the point difference....

You post this thread to stop people bagging how powerful Dark elves are. Yet everyone disagrees with you, and you say DE is the only balanced army in the game in which every other army should be balanced again, but isnt...

And to top it off, your handle is "Von Uber"

Hydra should be 275+pts imo. S5 Breath weapon with no misfire is worth 150pts alone.

My handle is VonUber for an RL reason:) And its tempting to start a vampire army and call the lord VonUber. Just for giggles.

I think dark elves were 90% right I said. And I did admit there strong and I just want people to stop constanly calling them cheesy just because they dont like them and or cant beat them.

Tarliyn
24-03-2010, 01:16
Given that the Monster and Handlers rule was written explicitly for the Hydra unit and it's the only unit that uses those rules, I'd say that's not likely to happen (though I wouldn't be surprised if they get rid of the "move through terrain like skirmishers" rule - that was apparently an accidental oversight). Also keep in mind that no one complained about the Hydra in the 6th edition army book, when it used the exact same rules. The problem isn't the Monster and Handler rules. The problem is the point cost. GW increased the Hydra's raw combat power to about where you would expect it to be (most everyone I knew thought I was wasting points when I put one in my 6th edition army) but didn't give it an appropriate points cost increase (iirc, they actually decreased the points cost slightly, though it's been ages since I double-checked the cost in the 6th edition book).



They're both rank and file units - these days aka "speed bumps". Despite all of the supposedly undercosted advantages that you list for the Dark Elves, I have no real issue with the points cost. And the Dark Elf Spearmen points cost right now is probably a result of the High Elves having their spearmen reduced in cost when their book came out. The DE spears are probably pointed so that they match up well against their traditional adversaries.



So now the ability to buy additional options for your units is worth points? That's a new one...



If you can get 3 wounds on a Hydra then I have to ask why you can't get 2 more and finish it off? And even if you only get it down 3 wounds, you at least get half points for it. An Empire Steam Tank on the table more or less guarantees that there are 300 points that the opponent won't be getting.





I see that you included the RBT twice. Note that RBTs are NOT a special choice. They are RARE only. Also, the Empire players in my area all use cannons. They also seem very happy with them.

I could go on...


go look at my post again, what I was responding too was someone said that darkelf guys are 2-3 times more expensive than empire guys. I was saying that that wasn't true. I wasn't trying to compare the two armies on anyother way except for point cost. Also I used the reaper twice because I was comparing warmachines and with the thing where you mentioned that the reaper isn't a special slot, pistoliers aren't a core slot but I still compared them to Dark Riders /gasp. Also a solo steam tank is way overrated. I would rather have one hydra than one steam tank. Even 1 wound on a steam tank start's great effecting its performance. Throw in two steam tanks and things start becoming bigger problems but than again if you throw in two hydras they are equally as troublesome. Hydra's regen makes it incredibly hard to deal with. I hardly ever get to take anything but lore of fire due to all the stupid regen handed out to everyone these days, its kinda ridiculous and with the steam tank not handing out half vps, I don't think that should be considered an issue cause if you have gotten the thing to half half wounds first off it can't do jack and second apprently you have something in your army that can deal with it so just finish the dang thing and get full vps. All that being said comparing the steam tank to monsters is hard and maybe not ever applicable.

Also look at my other posts in this thread. I am saying dark elves can be a very friendly list but there are some stupidly powerful things in the book; most of these things pertain to either the magic items, black guard, or how undercosted the hydra is though.


Hydra should be 275+pts imo. S5 Breath weapon with no misfire is worth 150pts alone.

275+ might be much BUT 250 would be appropriate I think. We also would want to avoid making reapers their only viable rare choice.


I am also starting to believe the op may just be a troll :eyebrows:

Stumpy
24-03-2010, 01:16
Err, maybe not THAT expensive. You really think anyone would use a 275 point hydra?
The book is internally reasonably balanced and has fair clarity of rules- that is something that books should look to achieve. Their external balance seemed to have been done in comparison to daemons and vampires.

ChaosVC
24-03-2010, 02:38
Beast man monster creatures are around 275pts and less effective then the hydra. I really don't see much problem with this as monsters in general should cost a bomb if they powerful. But I would think that it should cost at around least 225~230.

smallgreenguy
24-03-2010, 02:50
Hydra undercosted by 15, 50, 75 points? Come on. It should be equivilant to wood elf treemen, 285 points. Even at 225-250 points the hydra is retardedly good. It's undercosted by a good 100-110 points, and anyone using hydras regularly are lying to themselves of they think it's not.

Tarliyn
24-03-2010, 03:07
Hydra undercosted by 15, 50, 75 points? Come on. It should be equivilant to wood elf treemen, 285 points. Even at 225-250 points the hydra is retardedly good. It's undercosted by a good 100-110 points, and anyone using hydras regularly are lying to themselves of they think it's not.

Yeah my orginal suggestion was 250 but if you compare it too the ancient stegadon which is 275 points you see that the hydra should be atleast 275.

Note: I am not comparing hydra to the mount stegadons just the rare slot ones

soots
24-03-2010, 03:35
I would take a Hydra in for 275.

S5 template on any unit is going to hurt.

Plus 7 rerollable WS4 S5 attacks is just about the hardest hitting monster in the game.

Codsticker
24-03-2010, 04:16
To the OP, I dont blame you, i blame the author.

But blaming the author can get you banned on here lol.

You can be reasonably critical (take a look at the White Dwarf threads in the GW General forum) you just cannot be insulting or offensive.

Carry on...:shifty:

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad

Ultimate Life Form
24-03-2010, 04:18
Well it is a problem if the author is member of WarSeer, making any attack directed at him a potential forum rule violation. ;)

soots
24-03-2010, 05:05
Whats his username so i dont offend him again?

Dantès
24-03-2010, 05:36
I don't know why I read through this entire thread, but from the first post by the op, it strongly reminded me of a video I saw once:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZAr9E8i3ng

just substitute appropriately for Dark Elves and let your imagination do the rest.

The Red Scourge
24-03-2010, 09:23
DE only have a few flaws in my view:

Psychology affecting mounts - which is a problem with the BRB.

The Banner of Hag Graef encouraging sloppy tactics and the shade star and black guard no brainer.

Beyond that, everything is fine - even the unkillable dreadlord :)

ChaosVC
24-03-2010, 09:35
You forgot to mentioned the unkillable master, sorcerer and high sorcerer.

Althwen
24-03-2010, 10:53
I must admit that like many others I'm completely frustrated when playing against one of my best friends and his Dark Elves. I kinda feel bad for him since he's stuck with Dark Elves since the beginning and even through those crappy rulebooks they had before this one.

There are a couple of flaws with the book that can be trabslated into point values like the Hydra being too cheap as well as the reverse ward save being way too cheap.
But the main thing about DE is that it is the first and most obvious change of how Games Workshop thinks Fantasy armies should look and it came halfway through the renewal of an entire series of armybooks.
The armies following DE tend to have at least a couple of units or a playing style that can compete with DE and put them at about the same level.

The armybooks that went before DE are a stark contrast to the new ones though, and I think especially those people tend to feel cheated after having bought a new range of models and adapted to a new playing style, only to see all the armies that follow them getting more and more goodies and nasties.

GavT
24-03-2010, 11:08
Whats his username so i dont offend him again?

It's not a tricky one to work out... ;)

Believe me, people have said far more offensive things in the past (but that is not an invitation to try harder!).

My experience of these discussions boils down to the following conclusions:

Pendant is too cheap/ too good whatever the cost.
Hydras are too cheap.
Ring of Hotek is too cheap/ too good for champions.
Black Guard with Banner too good.
Shade Deathstar too good.

Other than those - which if all taken together can be extremely nasty - most folks seem to agree the Dark Elves is a pretty good book, its strengths based around army synergies that are both characterful and require some tactical nouse to use to greatest effect.

A fair summary?

GAV

Ultimate Life Form
24-03-2010, 11:17
Who would dare to disagree? :rolleyes::p

Mullitron
24-03-2010, 11:27
I think its a great list, yes the pendant/hydra/ring are too cheap but over all a good list. I think what makes some elements of the list frustrating for some players is that normal counters to units such as blackguard can be negated by the dark elf player easily. So for example: blackguard, normaly you could use a nasty spell that does lots of low strength hits and with thier low toughness/save they would be probably (dice gods allowing) take alot of damage. However the dark elf player can simply put the ring on the unit champion and negate that.

Is a nice list that i dont think is over powered, with some fun and interesting magic items and with even years of playtesting games workshop are not going to be able to identify every nasty combo. Yes its not perfect but its definitly a good step in the right direction for dark elves. (tho i do wish malekith was slightly more powerful not for rules reasons as much but more because i love the character)

Jack of Blades
24-03-2010, 11:38
Pendant is too cheap/ too good whatever the cost.
Hydras are too cheap.
Ring of Hotek is too cheap/ too good for champions.
Black Guard with Banner too good.
Shade Deathstar too good.

A fair summary?

GAV

I have seen people complaining about the Black Amulet being too expensive, thus leaving them with no other options but the Talisman of Wasted Points and PoK. Probably should've been 50/55 points. I love the ability for Masters to ride Manticores, don't understand why this isn't in other army books except HE/DE. Like Desert Rain said, I'd say the book is otherwise simply suffering from 1+1=11 syndrome.

Otherwise I agree with that. Why did you leave GW anyway, fancied a break? it feels quite odd to be talking on a forum with the guy I saw a picture of 6 years ago when I was 11, before the website was FUBAR'ed into a commercial arsenal (you had some mad posing skills :p). Nevertheless it feels nice to be talking with a former GW employee. Don't understand why this sort of contact wasn't/isn't more frequent, but this is GW we're on about...

Anyway, if you don't mind answering then why is GW so inconsistent with its writing? it seems to be more like a case of bash-a-game-dev for who writes what than any real procedure.

The problem with books that turn out like Dark Elves is that in environments where people don't bother to restrict themselves manually from taking 1+1=11 options and such the book is overpowered, when outside of that it's quite good. /Self-mumbling I'm not a game designer so won't claim to have any real insight on this, but I don't think you'd ever be able to make an army book that satisfies everyone, it's either too good (DoC), too meh (BoC) or too weak (O&G) in each environment. WoC is a very awkward book too, horrible internal balance but good external balance...//Self-mumbling


On another note I think the guys who wrote Daemons, WoC, O&G as well as Beastmen would learn a lot from coming here and making separate threads for feedback. But oh well. Knowing GW, that will happen when the galaxies align and all of their stars combine with eachother to form a big ''GW'' when viewed from outside of the universe.

Falkman
24-03-2010, 11:47
I used the ring in 6th ed. And it was 20points and had a 6" Range . NOW the unit has hatred, they need to chase you down. And its a 12" range yes. IT is still very easy to pull away from the unit you want to cast at. To be honest for 20points you needed to put it on a noble, give him heavy armour, a shield, a lance, give him a crossbow and a sea dragon cloak and mount him on a cold one, a dark steed. Or If you wanted to put him on a peggy.
Thats 128-171points. And hes way harder to kill than a unit champion and has allot more killing power.

I didnt see anyone flaming the ring in 6th ed.
That's because in 6th ed the ring only affected people within 6" of the ringbearer, you had to be physically very close to a mage to shut him down.
Nowadays they don't just extended the range to 12", they also made it work so that it doesn't only shut down wizards within 12" of it, it also shuts down targeting spells within 12" of it, a huge buff.


My experience of these discussions boils down to the following conclusions:

Pendant is too cheap/ too good whatever the cost.
Hydras are too cheap.
Ring of Hotek is too cheap/ too good for champions.
Black Guard with Banner too good.
Shade Deathstar too good.

Other than those - which if all taken together can be extremely nasty - most folks seem to agree the Dark Elves is a pretty good book, its strengths based around army synergies that are both characterful and require some tactical nouse to use to greatest effect.

A fair summary?

GAV
Pretty good summary, yeah. I'd probably add that the shooting is a bit too good overall, I don't think the crossbows needed armour piercing.
I've had loads of fun with a Dark elf army running without most of that stuff (only took Ring for magic defense) and without any magic or monsters, just big blocks of corsairs and spearmen supported by some cavalry, crossbowmen and a bolt thrower.

List if anyone is interested:

Dreadlord: Dagger of Hotek, Potion of Strength, Armour of Darkness, pair of repeater handbows
241 pts

Master: BSB, Ring of Hotek, Sword of Might, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, dark steed
167 pts

Master: Caledor's Bane, Enchanted shield, pair of repeater handbows, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, dark steed
166 pts

20 Corsairs: full command
225 pts

20 Corsairs: full command
225 pts

10 Corsairs: musician, repeater handbows
105 pts

10 Corsairs: musician, repeater handbows
105 pts

21 Warriors: full command, shields
162 pts

10 Warriors: musician
63 pts

10 Crossbowmen: musician, shields
115 pts

5 Dark riders: musician, repeater crossbows
117 pts

5 Dark riders: musician, shields
97 pts

8 Shades: great weapons
144 pts

6 Cold one knights: full command, Null talisman
217 pts

1 Reaper bolt thrower
100 pts

I feel this is a list that is both tactically challenging and at the same time fitting of what a Dark elf army might look like. You guys should try it out if you want more of a challenge ;)

Condottiere
24-03-2010, 12:00
The fact that RoH extends to 12" is annoying; if it remained at 6", you could drop a Comet about 7" away, and if the spell is successful, the DE player has to debate whether it's worth the risk of moving through that area.

Lord Anathir
24-03-2010, 13:49
Apart from the stuff you mentioned, what about (using HE has a comparison): rxbmen vs high elf lsg, core harpies vs rare eagles, shades vs shadow warriors, dark riders vs reavers, even the dragon riding lvl4 with the familiar does his job better then a high elf lvl 4 equivalent. and then theres the cochariot having t5 and the lion chariot t4. Just so many little things that arent really reflected in their point cost is what drives DE into top tier.

The Red Scourge
24-03-2010, 14:32
Apart from the stuff you mentioned, what about (using HE has a comparison): rxbmen vs high elf lsg, core harpies vs rare eagles, shades vs shadow warriors, dark riders vs reavers, even the dragon riding lvl4 with the familiar does his job better then a high elf lvl 4 equivalent. and then theres the cochariot having t5 and the lion chariot t4. Just so many little things that arent really reflected in their point cost is what drives DE into top tier.

Well.. High elves were designed as a rather poor and bland army with generally an overpriced core and poor balance among the specials.

Darkies on the other hand is a great and versatile army that compares better to the marvel that is wood elves than high elves except for a few flaws. Losing the ASF banner renders their deathstars useless, and then whats left?

All armies have a few OTT items. I don't know how many times my VC and WoC have whined about the Empire Speculum, whats the point in paying through the nose for a combat monster, when he is gonnna get whooped by some wizards apprentice. Can't see how the PoK is so much worse, unlike a vampire or chaos lord the Dreadlord can't do much by himself and need a unit/dragon to support him :)

Kaihlik
24-03-2010, 14:57
That pretty much hits the nail on the head Gav. While other things might be tweaked a bit those are the main points about the Dark Elf list that cause real problems. I think the rest of the options in the book are viable and useful (although I think we pay a bit too much for corsairs compaired to warriors although comboed with other things they can still be strong). The only real problem is that the good choices are being overshadowed by the too good choices.

Its really easy to make a fun themed dark elf list that is fun to play and play against and the nice thing about the ring of hotek is that it does allow you to play totally different builds to other races as you don't need the same level of magic defence. The downside being that it is too cheap and easy to stick on a unit champion.

Hydras could have stayed like they were before and gone down to 175pts and they would have been fine or changed to what they are like now and stayed at 220pts and still probably been fine, its the combination of cheaper and better which has made them too good.

Things might change with 8th edition though, the things which might be causeing the problems atm may not be such a big deal come summer so really its only if these things stay problematic that any change would be useful.

I would like to say that I really like the way special characters are in the Dark Elf book (apart from shadowblade who needs the Rune of Khaine) as they give the dark elf army something extra without defining it which I much prefer to the new breed of special character who define your army for you.

Kaihlik

archie-d
24-03-2010, 16:01
i dont play DE personally, but i play against them a lot and i do own the book. overall i think its a great book, very characterful the only thing that grinds my gears is that darned hydra. seeing how much damage it does to my tomb kings knowing it costs 50 whole points less than my bone giant and does infinitely more on the battlefield sucks.

i can sort of see where the OP is coming from, having played tomb kings for a while to very little success. there seems to be a new book on the horizon and im hoping they havent been hit with the super-duper stick like a few of the recent books, some point cost tweaks and maybe a new unit or two will be fine, i dont wanna be called a powergaming bandwagon jumper :(

Emeraldw
24-03-2010, 17:04
It's not a tricky one to work out... ;)

Believe me, people have said far more offensive things in the past (but that is not an invitation to try harder!).

My experience of these discussions boils down to the following conclusions:

Pendant is too cheap/ too good whatever the cost.
Hydras are too cheap.
Ring of Hotek is too cheap/ too good for champions.
Black Guard with Banner too good.
Shade Deathstar too good.

Other than those - which if all taken together can be extremely nasty - most folks seem to agree the Dark Elves is a pretty good book, its strengths based around army synergies that are both characterful and require some tactical nouse to use to greatest effect.

A fair summary?

GAV

Sounds about right to me. I think Black Guard are still undercosted even without the banner but I compare it to my high elves which might not be fair. Stubborn and ITP help but overall that is a small concern compared to the above stuff.

But I would agree that those are the main concerns.

Skyros
24-03-2010, 19:33
You can do it with 20 archers quite easily. Hardly A gunline.

Now you're not even pretending to make sense. 20 archers do not mathematically come anywhere near close to killing 15 blackguard in one round.

And the thing about DE isn't that they are loaded down with impossible to beat/kill units...it's that they have a whole series of very nasty, very complementary units, that are pretty much universally under priced.

I don't have a problem with an unkillable dreadlord, actually. But when you look at, say, Blackguard with ASF banner vs Greatswords who cost only marginally less...the difference is pretty mind blowing. (They get WHAT for those 3 extra points????!!)

If the DE player is halfway competent, and taking one of the 'harder' DE lists, he really has no excuse to be losing to anyone outside of Demons and VC - barring atrociously bad luck, of course.

I think the DE army looks like a lot of fun and has some great models in it - if some oldies (like dark riders) were revised I'd love to start an army of them - but I find my desire to do so lacking as long as they are going to be a tier above everyone else.

VonUber: no one would complain about a ring of hotek that cost like 5 points and had a 1" range. Do you see where I'm going with this?

VonUber
24-03-2010, 19:34
Right people are pointing out all these broken things, At the gaming clubs I go to (one of them is a GW vets night, the other Is a local games club). People dont complain about anything in my army as much as my dread lord. Executioners axe and blood armour, a sea dragon cloak and a pair of hand bows. Lets say he goes againsed a chaos lord. I hit him on 4s (3s if i cast words of pain on him) and I wound him on 2's and do D3 wounds as my str is double his toughness. And for each wound I cause I get +1 to my armour save.
This combo works againsed ANY combat charicter that isnt an elf. I get more complaints about him then I do about my black guard, the hydra and the ring of hotec. And the thing is hes verry easly killed like most dark elf things. A fire ball at a hydra can take a few wounds off it. Or a unit of knights with a 1+save can realy screw over a hydra. Instead of people complaining about stuff they dont have in there army lists why not figure out ways to kill it. Iv pointed out loads in this thread and people just say they wont work, And they do, verry well.

And like I said before, no one complained about he ring of hotec in 6th ed. And it was cheaper.

Sand
24-03-2010, 19:42
I know the feeling of having an army where you get zero "credit" for winning due to your mad skillz (I play Vampire Counts, or did -these days I don't really bother bringing them since people find them a bit of a chore to play against). However, I also realize that sometimes people aren't just whining because I'm a total God at Warhammer. There are armies where everything just very easily comes together into a very powerful list, even if you don't think you're cheesing it out. Dark Elves definitely seem to be such an army, along with Vampire Counts.

But of course even if you achieve a non-cheesed out list there's bound to be a bit of residual whining about the perceived OPness of the army, which can be annoying, but that's just human nature I guess.

Tarliyn
24-03-2010, 19:49
People here aren't complaining about a fighty character cause fighty characters are a dime a dozen and you pay a fair amount of points for your uber fighty character. Now if that character you have there only costs 100 points, then people would complain. The problem isn't that most of this stuff exists, the problem is it is so cheap.

Also no one complained about the ring in 6th edition for a few reason:

a) it worked differently
b) you hardly ever saw d. elf armies (due to the power level)
c) the list was so weak in general that even if you did see d. elf armies, them having one good item didn't seem worth complaining about


Vonuber, it is great that you love your army and we all understand your desire to defend it but at the same time look at what everyone else has said, some things are just a bit to cheap are we saying that makes the army completely and utterly broken in all situations, no of course. But if you throw all the things that are under costed in the army in one list it makes for a pretty broken list.

Another post put it perfectly, 1+1=11

On a side note, I know most people don't play under 2k games as their main games but at 1500 points dark elf magic is CRAZY good, lol. My friend took 2 mages and I took and engine and man did he destroy me with that magic, lol. Also I only took the engine because I knew he was taking 4 levels of magic, normally it sits at home.

sulla
24-03-2010, 19:51
The fact that RoH extends to 12" is annoying; if it remained at 6", you could drop a Comet about 7" away, and if the spell is successful, the DE player has to debate whether it's worth the risk of moving through that area.The problem with the 6" version was that you couldn't use it offensively, only defensivly. If you moved the ringbearer to within 6" of the enemy caster you wanted to target, he just walked out of range. Also, a 6" hotek would just mena DE could go magic heavy and take the ring becasue it's so easy to avoid the radius.

It'll be interesting to see what the 8th edition lores of magic look like. In the skaven book there are a lot of spells that bypass the ring and MR. There may be more options like that in the standard lores too.

If the M&H rules don't allow monsters to move fast through terrain...
If the magic rules don't encourage such high investment in magic...
If the psychology rules don't buff mounts/riders with hatred/frenzy...
If the missions focus on core infantry rather than deathstars...

There are lots of things that could shift the balance of power from lists that are very good at killing stuff like DE and Daemons.

Sygerrik
24-03-2010, 19:58
And like I said before, no one complained about he ring of hotec in 6th ed. And it was cheaper.

And it was much worse. Did you not read the descriptions? People don't care about the effect it has on nearby casters because it's really easy to keep your casters away from it. People care because it creates a 12" bubble into which casting is a huge risk, which grows greater the more dice you throw (ie the more powerful a spell you are trying). Combine it with null stones to render the unit basically immune to one and two die spam spells and you have a practically magic-proof unit.

There's a way to kill everything. You've pointed out lots of ways to kill DE stuff. Nobody is saying DE are unkillable. But even if you kill them, they're often faster than you, cheaper than you, hit harder than you, are more accurate than you, and shoot better than you. They are a versatile army that severely underpays for some of its choices and has a few items that should never have made it into the final copy (Ring, Pendant, Banner).

Black Guard may be T3 with a 5+ save, but often the unit is just a delivery vehicle for an assassin, an unkillable combat character, and an ASF banner bearer that provides them with SCR, some bonus attacks and Stubborn-ness. It's the definition of hero-hammer and one of the nastiest deathstar units in the game, another one being the Shadestar in the same army.

Eumerin
24-03-2010, 21:54
seeing how much damage it does to my tomb kings knowing it costs 50 whole points less than my bone giant and does infinitely more on the battlefield sucks.

Yes, but... you're talking about the BONE GIANT here... something that has its picture in the dictionary next to the word 'Suck'.

:rolleyes:

Mind you, I'm not saying that the Hydra isn't undercosted. I'm just saying that the Bone Giant is pretty lousy. And Tomb Kings have yet to benefit from the universal reduction in cost that nearly all armies got in the 7th edition army books (which is why VC skeletons cost 1 point less than an identical TK skeleton).


I'd probably add that the shooting is a bit too good overall, I don't think the crossbows needed armour piercing.

I'd disagree with that, myself. When using the 6th edition army book, I remember being spectacularly unimpressed with the results of RXB fire - largely due to the vast quantities of heavily armored troops that I was constantly having to deal with (who would have sheets of crossbow bolts patter off of their armor like gently falling rain...). And based on what I read back then, I wasn't the only one who felt that way. The slight boost when dealing with heavily armored troops was greatly appreciated.

Stumpy
25-03-2010, 00:19
I like how he pointed to the people who won high-end tourneys being dark elf players because druchii make better generals than everyone else. :)

VonUber
25-03-2010, 04:47
I like how he pointed to the people who won high-end tourneys being dark elf players because druchii make better generals than everyone else. :)

Indeed Druchii do :)

Ultimate Life Form
25-03-2010, 05:10
Just a few days ago, DE wiped me out completely...

by turn 3. :eyebrows:

Condottiere
25-03-2010, 09:36
Fluff wise, Dark Elves are supposed to a very tough opponent.

Nerfing their items might not be the solution, since you want them hard hitting, so the next solution is revising costs to be more on par with the extra synergy they contribute.

ChaosVC
25-03-2010, 09:50
There is a saying, if you can't beat them. Join them.

Sand
25-03-2010, 10:01
Indeed Druchii do :)Like Daemons of Chaos, then :p

Seriously though, the "army x" must be overpowered/played by skillful generals because they tend to rank highly in tournaments doesn't really prove either point.
On one hand, as the rumor spreads that "army x" is overpowered, more people will bring it to tournaments -hence giving it a better shot of being among the highly ranked spots. On the other hand, the most competitive players, who will often be better at winning (especially with armies that are overpowered), will probably endeavor to bring the armies with the nastiest possible builds -again giving said armies a better chance of being among the top ranked spots.

archie-d
25-03-2010, 10:38
Yes, but... you're talking about the BONE GIANT here... something that has its picture in the dictionary next to the word 'Suck'.


fair point, it really does suck. its just the only thing ive got to compare it to :D

N1AK
25-03-2010, 14:44
Has the thought occured to any of you that the high end dark elf players are just good tacticians?


I've heard plenty of DE players who believe that is the case. At least Daemon players are happy to admit their army is broken, and almost every Lizard, Vampire and Skaven player will freely admit their list is better than the average.

I know 4 Dark Elf players, one of which is a genuinely good player regardless of army, 2 of which are probably about average and one is a poor tactician. I watch the 2 mediocre players making aweful decisions including poor deployment, poor target prioritisation, forgetting rules, making futile charges etc and come out ahead of players of the same ability with weaker lists.

The Dark Elf book is definitely better than average. That said it does reward good play, something the normal Daemon powerbuilds don't really need. I genuinely think the DE book has the second highest powerlevel in the game, but that if a player is good then they can do better with Dark Elves than they could with Daemons.

To give a personal example:
I played a 2250 game against a typical Dark Elf power list with my combat Dwarves (2 Warmachines and 10 Crossbows) and was beaten in a minor loss. My opponent luck out, but after the game was smack talking like he'd thrashed me in a really hard match up.

I challenged him to a game where we swapped armies and to his credit he agreed. I then dropped the Dragon from the list (to make a point) and spanked him all over the table winning with a massacre.

When I play Dark Elves with a competitive list you can usually tell before they've finished deployment if they know what the hell they are doing. If they've got a good list, and done everything right up to the end of turn 1 I know it's going to be a very tough / impossible fight.

Tarliyn
25-03-2010, 17:47
To above, In that DE players defense combat dwarfs are a hard army to play particuliarly if you had never fielded them before.

Don't get me wrong I agree that DE=2nd best book and it is a tribute to you that you can run a combat dwarf list, Im just pointing that out though.

skullkandy
25-03-2010, 18:21
My suggestion for you OP is to go read the new beastmen book and compare. It will put a whole new light on why DE are branded as completely and insanely OP.

pay specific attention to the rare monsters and the item list as well as the cost for RnF troops.

VonUber
25-03-2010, 18:33
My suggestion for you OP is to go read the new beastmen book and compare. It will put a whole new light on why DE are branded as completely and insanely OP.

pay specific attention to the rare monsters and the item list as well as the cost for RnF troops.

I my little brother has a beastman army so I have read the book and To be honest, charriots as core is pretty harsh as every other army needs to pay a special choice for one. And sure there monsters are expensive but they have cool abilities like the psygore or what ever its called. That can make a mess of most caster armys.

Anyway. To prove a point to you all I played a 2,000point game today with my dark elves. I took a level 4 and a level 2 instead of my normal dread lord and level 1.. But I also didnt take a single magic item. I beat Vampire Counts by a SV. Im sure most other DE players dont need magic items to win. Before you say The hydra was broken, It killed 1 vampire hero, broke (from the flank when my black guard were in the front, bad luck on the combat on my part) and refused to rally. And before you say dark elf magic is over powered, the level 4 used the lore of metal and spent the game killing the blood knights and black knights. And the level 2 did have dark magic, and had bladewind & soul stealer. The level 2 died on turn 3 from the 2nd time they got that spirit hoste spell off irasistably. The witch elves were shockingly good. They killed 12-16 skeletons a turn :D, I was shocked. I figured they would run into a unit of skeletons and bounce off and then get over run like the last 4 times I took them vs VC.

The list was
lvl 4 on pegy
lvl 2 on pegy
15witch elves /w f.c
15xbg /w f.c
2xcharriots
Hydra
2Bolt throwers
4 units of 5 dark riders with xbows
10xSpearmen with shields

The game highlight was when the level 2s mount had to roll on the monster reaction table, got frenzy and hatred and proceded to butcher a corpse cart.

Eumerin
25-03-2010, 19:33
Just a few days ago, DE wiped me out completely...

by turn 3. :eyebrows:

I nearly did this to another Dark Elf player using my own Dark Elf army (I've got a DE army and a TK army). Off the top of my head (it was a while back), my army included -

Level 4 Sorc
Level 2 Sorc
Two Spear Bricks
Twin Hydras
Witch Elves
Cold One Knights
Two units of Harpies
One unit of Dark Riders (I'm a bit iffy on this one, though)

By the end of turn 3 I'd nearly wiped him completely off the table, taking nearly no losses in exchange. The guy was just a horrible player and made a number of mistakes. Literally the only things that he had left were his Black Guard (including ASF banner, fighty character, and hidden assassin) and his Cauldron.

By the end of turn 6, I BARELY avoided a draw. I lost most of my army trying and failing to win in melee against the Black Guard unit - including hitting it on both flanks on the same turn with the hydras.


Need I say more?

TsukeFox
25-03-2010, 19:52
So no one think it is odd that a mythical monster that never had flaming breath now suddenly has it? How does the Hydra not burn itself and ruin its regen? I would cry cheese on the points, handler rules, and ect
but thankfully that has been coverd.
As far as the magic items go, their elves. It seems that the elf armies just got blesssed with a magic item treasure box.
Thier asssasin with much better options than the skaven assasin (thank the horned rat for that ward save) and better stats almost? And does the dark elf assassin points add to core or just limbo?
Scout/shades that can wield great weapons? Why not just give goblins that option and give the orcs and gobbos thier always strike first banner they had in 5th. That will balance the game out.
Once again **** poor planing from the GW.

Maoriboy007
25-03-2010, 19:54
In most cases I prefer to see a Hydra rather than assasins. Hydra may be insanely difficult , but there a (very) few ways to reasonably deal with them.
Assassin (in the hands of a hallfway decent opponant) can be much harder to deal with.
Basically being able to show up in a place and time of their generals chooosing , causing massive amounts of damage and quite often out of real harms way before you can lift a finger.
Turns units from zero to hero (or hero to @$$*ole) without the benefit of a hero slot.
The Hydra would benefit massivly from two words in brackets. Right after the word Hatred in the special rules entry put (handlers only).

TsukeFox
25-03-2010, 19:56
By the end of turn 3 I'd nearly wiped him completely off the table, taking nearly no losses in exchange. The guy was just a horrible player and made a number of mistakes. Literally the only things that he had left were his Black Guard (including ASF banner, fighty character, and hidden assassin) and his Cauldron.

By the end of turn 6, I BARELY avoided a draw. I lost most of my army trying and failing to win in melee against the Black Guard unit - including hitting it on both flanks on the same turn with the hydras.


Need I say more?[/QUOTE]

Wow when super powers meet who wins? No one

Tarliyn
25-03-2010, 22:16
I my little brother has a beastman army so I have read the book and To be honest, charriots as core is pretty harsh as every other army needs to pay a special choice for one. And sure there monsters are expensive but they have cool abilities like the psygore or what ever its called. That can make a mess of most caster armys.

Anyway. To prove a point to you all I played a 2,000point game today with my dark elves. I took a level 4 and a level 2 instead of my normal dread lord and level 1.. But I also didnt take a single magic item. I beat Vampire Counts by a SV. Im sure most other DE players dont need magic items to win. Before you say The hydra was broken, It killed 1 vampire hero, broke (from the flank when my black guard were in the front, bad luck on the combat on my part) and refused to rally. And before you say dark elf magic is over powered, the level 4 used the lore of metal and spent the game killing the blood knights and black knights. And the level 2 did have dark magic, and had bladewind & soul stealer. The level 2 died on turn 3 from the 2nd time they got that spirit hoste spell off irasistably. The witch elves were shockingly good. They killed 12-16 skeletons a turn :D, I was shocked. I figured they would run into a unit of skeletons and bounce off and then get over run like the last 4 times I took them vs VC.

The list was
lvl 4 on pegy
lvl 2 on pegy
15witch elves /w f.c
15xbg /w f.c
2xcharriots
Hydra
2Bolt throwers
4 units of 5 dark riders with xbows
10xSpearmen with shields

The game highlight was when the level 2s mount had to roll on the monster reaction table, got frenzy and hatred and proceded to butcher a corpse cart.


What we have all been saying all along is that it is completely possible to make a balanced D. Elf list and it seems you had a great one there (well 4 units of dark riders might be excessive, lol). You even could have thrown in one of the items that people have mentioned as being undercosted and still have had a balanced list. The problem comes when you throw all those items in one list.

Also it is completely possible you are just a great general, and if that is so we are not trying to take that away from you. It is just a fact that some of the stuff is under costed. Doesn't make your accomplishments any less deserving, esp. when you don't take those item like in the above list you mentioned.

Just out of curiosity what was the vamp list?

VonUber
25-03-2010, 23:23
What we have all been saying all along is that it is completely possible to make a balanced D. Elf list and it seems you had a great one there (well 4 units of dark riders might be excessive, lol). You even could have thrown in one of the items that people have mentioned as being undercosted and still have had a balanced list. The problem comes when you throw all those items in one list.

Also it is completely possible you are just a great general, and if that is so we are not trying to take that away from you. It is just a fact that some of the stuff is under costed. Doesn't make your accomplishments any less deserving, esp. when you don't take those item like in the above list you mentioned.

Just out of curiosity what was the vamp list?

Vamp lord, +1lvl, 4+ ward, +2pd, lord of the dead, Vons Danse bound spell and night shroud.
Vamp, night mare, +1 lvl, lord of the dead, toomb blade, scepter de niro
Vamp, bsb, dread knight, inf haterd,
3 Units of 14 skeletons with full commmand
6 blood knights with full command
2 units of 6 black knights with full commnand, one with a warbanner.
2 corpse carts
thats all I can rember from the top of my head. I think he may of been over looking back on it.

His tactic was spam raise and try and get all his knights on my flank and throw out as many Winds of undeath and Vanhels danse macabres as he could. And put zombies in the way of everything to re direct my charges.

And I took 4 units of dark riders because he almost allways takes 2 units of blood knights.

Kevlar
25-03-2010, 23:46
Scout/shades that can wield great weapons? Why not just give goblins that option and give the orcs and gobbos thier always strike first banner they had in 5th. That will balance the game out.
Once again **** poor planing from the GW.

Oh boy I don't miss the 50 two handed sword wielding night goblins with three fanatics and the bad moon banner. Not one bit!

VonUber
25-03-2010, 23:49
Oh boy I don't miss the 50 two handed sword wielding night goblins with three fanatics and the bad moon banner. Not one bit!

Just throw an emporor dragon into them.