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Vepr
23-03-2010, 19:05
I know some people like to run 4 year studies funded by governments and have a codex reviewed by a panel of the worlds greatest minds but I think within 2 months everyone gets a feel for a codex even if they are still sorting out lists etc. ;)

What are everyone's feelings so far on the new codex after getting some games and even tournaments under their belts?

SPYDER68
23-03-2010, 19:19
They can easily be a bit above average, so i said good, they are Average - Good.

It all depends on how you try to play them.

Falkman
23-03-2010, 19:25
I voted great because I feel the codex is great fun. If you meant purely on a competitive level I'd say between average and good. I've won all my games with the new 'nid book so far, but all except one have been against the same opponent, and he's both a pretty crappy player and uses a somewhat crappy list.

Vepr
23-03-2010, 19:27
I voted great because I feel the codex is great fun. If you meant purely on a competitive level I'd say between average and good. I've won all my games with the new 'nid book so far, but all except one have been against the same opponent, and he's both a pretty crappy player and uses a somewhat crappy list.

I meant over all so that would include both from a fun and competitive aspect. :)

Radium
23-03-2010, 19:27
It's a good codex. It has some nasty bits, and lots of cool bits. And even some poor bits, but I quite like it.

Kurisu313
23-03-2010, 19:34
The codex is good and well balanced, and fun I think.

It's just the mistakes that it makes are so glaring and frustrating. The carnifex/trygon disparity is the worst of them, and is almost unforgivable considering the purely financial motivations for doing so.

Hormagaunts are the big success story. They went from nigh-useless to brilliant.

Project2501
23-03-2010, 19:47
The codex is good and well balanced, and fun I think.

It's just the mistakes that it makes are so glaring and frustrating.

Hormagaunts are the big success story. They went from nigh-useless to brilliant.


Agreed, but I think the award should go to gargoyles.

Bouncl
23-03-2010, 19:49
I enjoy the codex, although I wouldn't call it well balanced. The pyrovore and harpy stick out especially.

Mannimarco
23-03-2010, 19:52
lots of books have the :wtf: were they thinking unit

ive played it a couple of times and yeah its a good book, actually get some good games in now without thinking "oh a nid player eh? how many fexs does this one have"

I've even stopped hearing the cries of "whaaaa they nerfed my fex after showing all the pretty models and making me buy nidzilla whaaa go to hell GW"

Marshal Augustine
23-03-2010, 19:54
I think they are good. And like the latest book that they have released there is variety and actual options that the games must choose from to make an effective list.
Cheers!

ghoulio
23-03-2010, 20:10
Personally I really don't like playing with the new book at all. I have managed to get in quite a few games, even a tournament and for me a lot of the fun factor went down. Some things are good, dont get me wrong:

- Hormagaunts are WAY better then I thought they would be
- Trygons
- Hive Guard
- Zoanthropes
- Gargoyles
- Even raveners are decent

Then there are a bunch of things that i really really dont like:

- The entire ranged weapon section of the book. I am finding that Deathspitters are virtually useless. In all the games I have played they have done virtually nothing, especially when you compare them to last edition where they were one of the better guns in the codex. Venom Cannons and Stranglethorn Cannons I am finding incredibly lack luster as well. It boggles my mind that the VC STILL has the penalty to armor. Sigh.
- Warriors. Last edition I used to run them at Str 5, Init 5, and they were great. They would do well in hand to hand and pretty well in shooting, now with deathspitters they just dont do well at either, but cost more. I am going to try them out with boneswords and maybe then they will be decent, although they will cost 40pts+ per model, which is less good.
- A larger then normal section of "wtf?" models then most codex's i have seen
- Lack of Frag Grenades. I played against a mostly hand to hand combat tyranid player with my mixed list (also nids) in a tourney. I just waited in cover because he HAD to assault me to do anything and just thrashed him. I did 20 wounds to his Hormy squad with mine before he even got to go. Luckily most people in my area haven't figured this out so I am still doing well in games lol

I can see most people here are fairly happy with the book (or at least rate it average to good) and I do agree with most it is nice to see that Nidzilla doesnt really live anymore in 5th ed. With that being said I find there are just such a massive amount of internal balance issues, poorly worded/thought out rules and over-compinsated points costs on things that really frustrate me and I am just not finding it fun anymore.

jspyd3rx
23-03-2010, 20:11
My group plays very tourny minded and I have yet to play a nid game without a rules argument. Basically I can't play them till a FAQ gets to us. Other nid players in my group just avoid those units

Revelations
23-03-2010, 20:18
Too many points disparities and unneccessary changes to call it better than average. Seems like a test Codex.

MystheDevourer
23-03-2010, 20:48
I put them in the good Category. with over 20 games with this codex I am happy to say that a Gunline Assault Hybrind is easy to come by. Even some units like the Tyrannofex have their uses (I use one in almost every list so that my Zoans can be podded in)

I am 50 50 on the need for suicide units (ZOANTHROPES!!!!) while I do love my obligitory Bomb pods filled to the brim with Devgants!


The one real aspect I ABSOLUTELY hate about this codex is the lack of punching power they have in terms of shooting. Example the Impaler Cannon which has the unique ability to shoot through objects to hit their target is still AP4. . . nice yes but a profile like the normal Impaler Cannon for shooting through things and then make it AP2 if you did not shoot through anything would have made it an even MORE important choice then it already is. What about Spike Rifles? I would take them if they were Assault 2 AP3 S3 HELL YEA! 20 shots from 10 gants? WHY NOT! no armour save is a blessing I dont even CARE that I need 5's to wound MEQ if I wound that is one less marine!

Then we have the horrid ballistic skill. . . how does a Hive Tyrant who is suppose to be the Leader of his alloted forces have the SAME likely hood to hit in shooting as a run of the mil GANT! and then explain how a Tyranid Prime has higher?

Other then those things I am great. As it stands MEQ is still a PAIN to kill for this codex. . . it is actually so annoying that I am taking the Doom of Malan'tai on the regular. . .

Sparowl
23-03-2010, 21:24
The one real aspect I ABSOLUTELY hate about this codex is the lack of punching power they have in terms of shooting. Example the Impaler Cannon which has the unique ability to shoot through objects to hit their target is still AP4. . . nice yes but a profile like the normal Impaler Cannon for shooting through things and then make it AP2 if you did not shoot through anything would have made it an even MORE important choice then it already is.

Seriously? You want to cause even more rules issues? Do you really think GW would be able to write rules that complicated, but still be clear?


What about Spike Rifles? I would take them if they were Assault 2 AP3 S3 HELL YEA! 20 shots from 10 gants? WHY NOT!

Yes, everyone would take them if they were that. Because in terms of ridiculous, broken things, an entire squad pumping out a high number of AP3 shots, while still being cheap, is insane.

It sounds like you just want 'Nids to be autowin in the shooting phase, which is supposed to be the weakest phase of 'Nids. They're an assault army, not a shooty army.

de Selby
23-03-2010, 21:35
I say average. I don't think this codex is significantly better or worse than the other 5th edition codices so far: it shares with them an expanded range of units, some radical new rules (straddling the border between cool and silly) and oddly skewed points costs.

I think on balance it may actually be a better product than the 4th ed. version, what with the cool new units and the better rules for instinctive behaviour. It's a painful changeover because of what happened to the old cool units...

Draconian77
23-03-2010, 21:38
It's an average book in my opinion. Lots of options on the face of it, but a deeper examination just reveals yet another GW book with horrible internal balance issues. A lot of the units/guns/abilities just don't work like Cruddace thought they would work.

Max Jet
23-03-2010, 21:40
Even after all this time quite a lot of rules, options and stats still don't make any sense too me. I have found some gimmicks and combinations hidden by the first view, but that's it. The Core of the Codex still looks ill thought out for me and I still cannot befriend the new playstyle.
In terms of power my opinion is unchanged. It's good.
In terms of quality the passing months haven't helped the Codex at all.

Dreachon
23-03-2010, 22:06
I have played a lot with the codex over the last two months and my opinion is still the same as when I first read it.

Not bad, not good but average, there are nice no-brainer options in it, the internal balance remains pooor, there is sloppy writing and thing that in concept would have been great have been poorly executed, this codex could have been much better if it was less rushed and a bit more refined.

ekiander
23-03-2010, 22:15
Competively they are only average but given that, they are a bit funner, more variation, and the new models are great. I agree with what everyone else said about point costs, balance, confusion, and WTF. And really this codex is much less forgiving than last codex so really harder to actually succeed with.

I'm really thinking the few week delay was really about trying to get a rushed product out rather than a "printing error" and the codex needed a few more months of play testing. Or possibly Cruddace realized how low he point costed IG and tried to not make the same mistake here and swung in the other direction.

MystheDevourer
23-03-2010, 22:41
Seriously? You want to cause even more rules issues? Do you really think GW would be able to write rules that complicated, but still be clear?



Yes, everyone would take them if they were that. Because in terms of ridiculous, broken things, an entire squad pumping out a high number of AP3 shots, while still being cheap, is insane.

It sounds like you just want 'Nids to be autowin in the shooting phase, which is supposed to be the weakest phase of 'Nids. They're an assault army, not a shooty army.

Wow you must not know a Gants BS then it has a 50% change to hit. NOW with needing 5!!! to wound your going to get about 2-3 wounds. Then there is the cover that everyone loves since I can FINALLY make a Marine take no armour save they will choose cover IF any ending in LIKELY 1-2 kills. Mathhammer, you can hate it you can love it but in the deepest issue it is right.


As for the complex rules, yes they could very easily just how I wrote them too. It is a standard LOS rule. if even 1! of the 3 Guard (if they are in a max brood) is going to shoot through a solid object (tanks, buildings, fortifications etc. . . ) and not foliage then yes purely simple.

As for nids being OMGWTFBBQ in the shooting phase, meh no I would love more options though then haveing the same old thing time in and time out. As for your assault army you are going on old preconceptions. They are a Mid ranged to close ranged army. Assaulting is a BONUS but not needed, I have proven this in over 15 games with this book. I play gunline Nids, that is not easy, you really have to be willing to sacrifice units for the over all goal WHICH I think is whats nids SHOULD be about.

orlando davion
23-03-2010, 22:58
I rate the codex as average.

Very badly written and needing an FAQ.

Hormogaunts when fully upgraded are very good.

However for a assault army the lack of frag grenades can be crippling. Basic stealers are helpless against decent melee/shooting trops in cover holding an objective marker.

A large unit of steelers may close and possible deal with basic 10 man marine squads; if SW or chaos with bolt pitol & CCW you are in deep trouble.

About the only help you can give the steelers is feel no pain from a Tervigon (and getting that off is not certain).

Can live with Hormogaunts as they are but I am finding my army is evolving away from using steelers at all.

blackjack
23-03-2010, 23:02
I can't belive they actually play tested this junk...

The power level is average if you take the best stuff but the internal balance sucks. maybe 1/3 to 1/2 the units in the book suck.

THE most assault orented book in the game and virtually no way to deal with units that camp in terrian.... Brilliant..:rolleyes:

An Elite section that is stuffed with all the best units thus ensuring you won;t have enough anti armor for todays meta.

A heavy section with virtually no ranged anti armor capability and massive overprice for the little bit of anti armor it does provide.:wtf:

One abolute no brainer troops choice that stands head and claws above every other choice (tervigon).

Basically Take the stuff Crudance wants you to buy and your army will do well, deviate even a litte and watch your army get slaughtered.

MystheDevourer
23-03-2010, 23:15
I can't belive they actually play tested this junk...

The power level is average if you take the best stuff but the internal balance sucks. maybe 1/3 to 1/2 the units in the book suck.

THE most assault orented book in the game and virtually no way to deal with units that camp in terrian.... Brilliant..:rolleyes:

An Elite section that is stuffed with all the best units thus ensuring you won;t have enough anti armor for todays meta.

A heavy section with virtually no ranged anti armor capability and massive overprice for the little bit of anti armor it does provide.:wtf:

One abolute no brainer troops choice that stands head and claws above every other choice (tervigon).

Basically Take the stuff Crudance wants you to buy and your army will do well, deviate even a litte and watch your army get slaughtered.

I approve this message.

look at it, what other army has this many options in the elite choice that are MUST takes to survive todays 5ed meta?

Axis
23-03-2010, 23:43
I put them in the good Category. with over 20 games with this codex I am happy to say that a Gunline Assault Hybrind is easy to come by. Even some units like the Tyrannofex have their uses (I use one in almost every list so that my Zoans can be podded in)

I am 50 50 on the need for suicide units (ZOANTHROPES!!!!) while I do love my obligitory Bomb pods filled to the brim with Devgants!


The one real aspect I ABSOLUTELY hate about this codex is the lack of punching power they have in terms of shooting. Example the Impaler Cannon which has the unique ability to shoot through objects to hit their target is still AP4. . . nice yes but a profile like the normal Impaler Cannon for shooting through things and then make it AP2 if you did not shoot through anything would have made it an even MORE important choice then it already is. What about Spike Rifles? I would take them if they were Assault 2 AP3 S3 HELL YEA! 20 shots from 10 gants? WHY NOT! no armour save is a blessing I dont even CARE that I need 5's to wound MEQ if I wound that is one less marine!

Then we have the horrid ballistic skill. . . how does a Hive Tyrant who is suppose to be the Leader of his alloted forces have the SAME likely hood to hit in shooting as a run of the mil GANT! and then explain how a Tyranid Prime has higher?

Other then those things I am great. As it stands MEQ is still a PAIN to kill for this codex. . . it is actually so annoying that I am taking the Doom of Malan'tai on the regular. . .

Nids have no problem with MEQ. Just hit em with enough attacks and people do fail armour saves. In fact they fail 1/3 of their saves. You can get some high output mid strength guns (deathspitters.. MC devourers) which take a pretty good toll on MEQ.

Nids have some trouble killing 2+ save things with shooting but if you want to kill that with shooting nids probably aren't the army for you. There is plenty of stuff that can do it in combat.

Overall i like the new codex. I run a reserves based army which is really fun to play and i wouldnt have been able to take before (or make it semi-viable at least). Some things are annoying (tyrants are costly, no frags) but you work around it and its not so bad.

As said, my list is reserves based. i take no tervigons, no doom, no deathleaper. In fact, i dont think i take any of the must-haves (except 2 zoantrhopes and a trygon). It might not win at a hardcore tournament but it is pretty decent. I find new nids to have some cool options. You can't run MC spam and expect to win anymore, which is for the good of the game IMO.

There are lots of good things. The list of things i consider totally rubbish or totally overpriced is much smaller than i originally thought. Off the top of my head: parasite, pyrovores, rippers, harpy, old one-eye.

There are still a bunch of units most people wont take because they aren't the best. However, they are still viable, if only for a niche role.

trigger
24-03-2010, 00:43
I voted good.
I think there are a lot of hidden nasties in the nid codex ,I4 carnifex on the charge spring to mind :D (on the charge of course) Which i owe all the warseer nay sayers a big thankyou to.

Opponant , why you taking carnies in your army there crap
Me , have you seen the codex ?
O , No just read the forums ....
M, So three plasma cannon shots followed by 15 I4 S10 close combat attacks is crap ...mmmm me thinks not.
O , Oh crap.... il shot them then ...
M, Meet the venom thrope :D

Sure a couple of things are propper poo , but others are great , the army has that , put the fear of god (i mean the emperor) in them feel ...

Sure the frag grenade thing sucks , but thats why you have units of 30 gaunts

Ha you charged me in cover you go last ......
And ?

Just my 2 pennies :)

azimaith
24-03-2010, 01:01
Is there any boring option? Because that's how new tyranids feel.

Oktober
24-03-2010, 01:53
They're an assault army, not a shooty army.

Really? Maybe you should tell GW that...

I fricken hate and loathe this codex. They took some of the best parts of the whole unit creation aspect of that was tyranid and threw it away! i want to add +1 I if I want to. I want to have the options of frag gernades. I liked having those little things I glued onto my figures actually mean something. (Where is Denis Leary when you need him for a good rant). Leave my leaping for hormagaunts. How about a BS of 4 for a tyrant. Let me take 2 long ranged weapons on my fex (Venom and stranglehorn). Change marines this drastically and everyone would all be crying on their land raiders that are now 500 points, bs of 2 with 1 fricken gun.

Sure there are lots of interesting and fun things to the codex. Why not have both? If you want to make a whole new army Robin Cuddace, then go make a whole new army...leave the basics of the nids alone. Look at what was good about 3rd, good about 4th and improve on that...don't change everything.

did I mention I hate the changes?

Setesh
24-03-2010, 02:56
lictors and biovores still suck. But they're so cool :( Lame.

azimaith
24-03-2010, 03:21
I fail to see how biovores suck other than sucking because they're part of the Tyranid army. (Because in any other army they would be excellent.)

Even in the tyranids they only suck if you play assault swarms of if your enemy is entirely mechanized.

Draconian77
24-03-2010, 03:36
Well for one thing they suck when directly compared to IG Griffons or hadn't you noticed? :angel:

azimaith
24-03-2010, 03:52
Is that before or after we factor in the biovores having three blast templates for the price of two griffon templates or that biovores that miss don't simply have their shots dissipate. Or perhaps were also were ignoring that biovores have no minimum range and can move and fire meaning any enemy closing with it never escapes its kill zone.

The griffons primary benefit is its first hit accuracy rendering batteries of griffons rather pointless.
The biovore simply compensates by covering more ground with more blasts and not having the blasts vanish if they miss.

Draconian77
24-03-2010, 04:07
In addition the Griffon is much harder to kill, comes with another weapon, is faster, can be used as mobile cover, can contest objectives with ease, isn't reliant on Synapse and deals more damage-per-point than a Biovore. (Oh, and you can Tank Shock/Ram)

Compared to the Griffon the Biovore doesn't look like an attractive purchase at all.

Axis
24-03-2010, 04:08
Griffons are cooler too :P

Seriously, no point comparing across armies like that. Guard and nids have such a radically different ethos that it doesn't do much. One is all about tanks and scared dross troops the other has no tanks and is all about monsters and mindless gribblies.

Biovores aren't rubbish but they aren't over the top awesome either. A solid option but not a necessary one.

Draconian77
24-03-2010, 04:11
I don't know about cross-army comparisons. If people don't want to make cross army comparisons, then why do they always compare the latest Marine codex to the previous Marine Codex? :D

More to the point, the damage output from a Biovore is too low to be an effective anti-infantry weapon in the first place. Debate it all you wan't, but I spent a good two months playtesting with Biovores. Not the worst unit in the book, but you are better off spending the points elsewhere in my opinion.

Axis
24-03-2010, 05:22
I don't know about cross-army comparisons. If people don't want to make cross army comparisons, then why do they always compare the latest Marine codex to the previous Marine Codex? :D

More to the point, the damage output from a Biovore is too low to be an effective anti-infantry weapon in the first place. Debate it all you wan't, but I spent a good two months playtesting with Biovores. Not the worst unit in the book, but you are better off spending the points elsewhere in my opinion.

I ask myself that every few months (which is how often a new marine codex comes out). I guess it is becuase marines are similar enoguh to at least try and do the comparison. I happen to think it isnt valid but it makes more sense than comparing nids to guard.

neXus6
24-03-2010, 07:47
I love how the thread has 36 (now 37) replies, most of which go into detail about how different aspects of the codex rate from terrible to good coming out with an over all decision of probably a little above average in the grand scheme of things.

Meanwhile the poll has 155 votes 65% of which say Good or Great.
:p

Shadowlance
24-03-2010, 08:02
I think it is quite a good Dex. I could have marked it as 'Awsome' but I wouldent go that far as the codex presents a good gamming style with enough competitiveness and ':wtf:!' units to keep both the player and your oppenent happy and challanged at the same time :D

All in all well done now that the ":wtf: are you insane" moments have died away :D

Vermin-thing
24-03-2010, 08:53
As far as I'm concerned this is as good as it's going to get.

Whats Poor:

Hardly anything, well maybe the normal venom cannon.

Whats good:

Pyrovors, gaunts and gants, lictors, tyrant guard, venomthropes, fexs, biovors, harpies ect...

Whats great:

Pyrovors in a spore, zanthropes, warriors with duel bone swords, primes, trygons, molocks, raveners, gargoyals, hive guard, rippers, tyrannofexs, tyrants, and stealers.

I know some units might seem WTF worth but I assure you that they all have their uses. For example: the tyrannofex might seem over costed but if you give it loaded weapons, and regen it will walk right up to those marines and chew them alive. It's a living barge. Venomthropes go right after your masses of gants which the enemy charges and then dies from the dangerous terrain tests lash whips, and mass dev fire.

The thing I love about this codex is its' synergy. There's so much of it it's tones of fun to play. To really be an effective hive fleet one must make sure all of the small/large parts work properly.

Dev fexes are disgusting. 36 shots from a brood. Mind you 90 shots from gants, but it's S6 vs S3.

azimaith
24-03-2010, 10:03
In addition the Griffon is much harder to kill,

They're artillery pieces, why are you getting them shot at.



comes with another weapon,

Which is useful, if your unit that can shoot without line of sight for some reason loses its gun.



is faster,

If you don't want to use your main gun.



can be used as mobile cover,

If you want to get your artillery pieces into gunfire.



can contest objectives with ease,

From its position in the backline, behind cover, lobbing shells..



isn't reliant on Synapse and deals more damage-per-point than a Biovore. (Oh, and you can Tank Shock/Ram)

That all is great, until you realize the griffon is not a chimera, its an artillery piece. If your planning on driving him around to get shot at you might as well get a unit designed to do that. if you want to kill someone with an artillery piece, well then do it.



Compared to the Griffon the Biovore doesn't look like an attractive purchase at all.
Compared to the griffon actually functioning as an artillery piece it does. I can put out equally ridiculous possibilities.
The biovore can "tie units up in close combat."
It can "provide a 4+ cover save for units behind it."
"It can move and shoot to extend its range."
"It can seed spore mines in the enemies backfield."

You look at the two as what they are, artillery pieces, there's not that much of a difference in comparison.

daboarder
24-03-2010, 10:14
the new Nids are simply BORING! they pretty much raped my armies flavour and options with this dex, and NO i'm not talking Nidzilla I'm talking some of the coolest units and options in the codex getting screwed over or removed. the lictor has been practicly obliterated by the biggest and most unessecary nerf ever. not to mention all the options everything lost, when I model something a particular way from the Kit I like it to actually MEAN something.

Colonial Rifle
24-03-2010, 10:44
I am struggling to motivate myself to redo my Nid army. I have most of the bits lying around in their packaging and played a few games with the new book, but not really feeling the changes with this army. There are far too many "no-brainer" choices that kind of force me to spam good units when I'm building lists, which I hate.

I'm sure the bean-counters loved this book (buy new models! Your old army is useless!), but I think this book has been a wasted opportunity.

Angelwing
24-03-2010, 10:55
I voted average. Some good stuff, some bad stuff, but overall the codex hasn't made me excited about breaking out my army. I've been playing nids for 15 years. I have a large army covering all editions with lots of different options on army theme enabling me to field just about anything I want. I bought all the new stuff, but the enthusiasm for assembling and painting it just isn't there with this release.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy I have a new book that brings the army up to date in terms of editions, and I'm happy we have some great new models. But if the new book doesn't get me rubbing my claws together thinking up fiendish combinations then something isn't quite right with it. Perhaps it's just me needing a break or perhaps it's dark emanations from my wallet concerning some of the new release prices (a subject that belongs in the appropriate thread).
Overall then, not bad, but not exciting or inspiring enough for me.

Reimu
24-03-2010, 12:06
I think a lot of the rules changes are more characterful.

What I don't agree with is the severe limitations placed on options. It's essentially a great codex hampered by some really asinine choices.

Comrade Penguin
24-03-2010, 12:49
Voted good

The codex certainly has its powerful units with lots of cool new abilities. I am one of those crazies who hates USRs because they water down the differences between armies. So I have been pleasantly surprised by the wealth of unique rules in the book. Whether its the Doom's crazy cool abilities or the deathleaper dripping with flavor. Or proxysm on the tyrant and the various upgrades the gargoyles have. I am so happy GW didn't dumb down the codex and make every upgrade either furious charge or counter attack or some other boring BS.

Unfortunately what holds it back from being great is the slew of clearly inferior units in the dex. We have all discussed this ad nauseum, so there is no need to go over the inherent weaknesses of carnifexs, pyrovores, lictors, rippers, flying rippers, spinegants, and venomthropes. Despite these awful units I still feel that I can build variety of fun and competitive lists with all the options. What is also nice is that my army looks different than all the other new nid players at the store (no tervis or mawlocks)

x-esiv-4c
24-03-2010, 13:06
Seems fine to me.

BBWags
24-03-2010, 13:08
I think the Nid codex is good. So far, in the last three months, it has been the only army (out of eldar, IG, and orks) to actually beat my Space Wolves. And yet that was a close game, too.

I think some people have legitimate complaints. The biggest in my mind is the lack of options for all units. But this is a trend that has gone on far beyond the 'nid codex. It happened when every new army book loses its old-style armory and now can only choose whatever options the designers chose for that specific unit. But again, that is game-wide, not just restricted to the tyranids.

Similarly, if people have a complaint about the flavor or personality of the army, then that's fine. Those are personal opinions that we will all have our own perspective on and I have no right to tell anyone they are wrong. For me, this new codex seems to have tons of personality. But then again, I haven't played any of the old nid dexes.

I think the people who don't have a right to complain are those who say the new codex sucks because it has so many no brainer options. Umm, HELLO?? As if the last codex didn't have any no brainer options... I think they're problem is that the new no brainers aren't the same as the old no brainers, so now they have to change.

Which brings us to the "omigoshGWisevilandmakesmespendmoremoneyontheirstuf f"!!!

Yes, they do. Because if they weren't able to get people to buy new stuff, the company as a whole would fold like a house of cards. I mean, come on. With as many people as fielded 8 million carnifexes in each of their lists, which they already owned, if carnifexes were still the foundation of the list, how many people would even need to buy anything new aside from the codex to play? We already know GW doesn't make any money on the codexes themselves. There need to be some new stuff if we are going to be able to SUPPORT the company that makes this game that we love so much. And despite the complaining, YES, we DO LOVE this game. If we didn't, we wouldn't spend hours assembling, painting, playing, strategizing, and writing on these forums!

And what did evil GW give us for our $50? Just an amazing detailed and beautiful model that just about trumps any other model that we have as of yet. If you're willing to pay that much for a Land Raider or only slightly less for a previous carnfiex, then the Trygon is a steal.

Honestly, we need to get off this "GW is evil for turning a profit" kick.

And yes, this codex has a bunch of units that are obviously not as good as other units in the codex. Name me one other codex that doesn't have the exact same thing in it.

In conclusion. I believe this codex is balanced, just as we all SAY we want codexes to be. But then some people, who say they want balance but what they really want is a healthy edge over every one else, start whining and complainging about how much the codex is sucky or underpowered.

Bunnahabhain
24-03-2010, 14:27
Average.

But it could so easily have been much better. It seems to lack depth or flavour, in a way the authors last one didn't, which is shown particularly well in the lack of options in many places.

The very poor internal balance is obvious, but pales into insignificance compare to the number of 'How the hell does that work' moments? The sheer number of really badly and unclearly written rules is quite impressive.

Power wise, it'll depend alot on the FAQ.

azimaith
24-03-2010, 14:29
Honestly, you can get better looking models than what GW produces for a steal at other miniature companies.

GW charges a lot because that's what the market will bear, not because their models are some how magically better than every other. Does GW want to turn a profit? Duh.
Do I care that GW wants to turn a profit, no, I care about what I get for my money.
If GW is going to get in the habit of making my old models pointless so they can get me to buy more I won't buy from them any more.

If GW had kept the models internally balanced I would have probably bought half a dozen hive guard, several venomthropes, and at least a pair of trygons to add to my army.

Instead they said "Hey guess what! Your old stuff is mostly crap! Buy new stuff!"
And that makes me think there's no point in buying new stuff, because once we all have that the cycle begins again.

Companies have to worry about customers brand loyalty. GW has not inspired that in me with the new tyranid codex, so I don't want to buy from them any longer. Especially not when I can buy blisters of magnificent $3 blisters with pairs and quartets from so many other games that I can use in whatever miniature gaming needs I have.

Cheeslord
24-03-2010, 15:14
I'm not a great fan of the new codex. I think overall it's balanced in terms of power, and I'm glad of the new units but...

Terrible rules contradictions - seems like the author didn't playtest it much and we will need FAQ to officially resolve all the questions e.g. Mawloc, CC weapons, spore mines, doom.

Internal balance issues - Pyrovore seems a bit (very) pants for the cost. Spore mine clusters kill most of the models when they first move.

I liked the weapons modified by the stats of the firer from the previous codex. Seems like they just got rid of it for the sake of change.

I had a Tyranid battleforce + extra Warriors and was going to slowly collect more models. Now my gaunts and Hormagaunts are illegal as the minimum squad is 10 and I have 8, and most of my warriors are illegal as I went for a varied weapon loadout.

Anyway I have 2 other armies I am working on - the nids are now on indefinite hold...

Mark.

blackjack
24-03-2010, 17:51
I think the "its a good codex" votes are from people who don't play Nids, while most of the "this codex is not very good" comments are comming form disapointed Nid players.

stormfalcon
24-03-2010, 18:00
I'd call it average to good, but I haven't gotten in as many games as I'd like as of yet so that evaluation may change. My thoughts on the codex pretty much reflect what has been said over the past, well, 2 months. There are some great new units (trygons, hive guard), some units that have gotten much better (hormagaunts, gargoyles, zoanthropes), others that could have been better (I would have much rather seen T5, 2W warriors and raveners) and a number of WTF units (including what they did to 'fexes and the price of tyrants).

I agree that quite a bit of the new codex falls under shameless marketing, forcing the consumers to buy the newest, shiniest (or grayest, for the plastics) thing. This is nothing new (changes to rending in 4th ed to sell more assault cannons or thunder hammer/storm shields, valkyries, etc.). I used to play Magic I probably shelled out easily as much in cards each time an expansion came out. The difference I think is that with miniature games, as opposed to a CCG, we spend a lot of time assembling, painting and converting our miniatures (not all of us, but we put in more time than it takes to open booster packs). This makes it really frustrating to have to shelve units for no other reason than we've already bought them.

As for useless units with amazing models, EVERY codex has 'em (possessed and chaos spawn from the Chaos Codex leap to mind). What's so annoying for me, and maybe other 'Nid players as well, is that there seems to be so MANY of them in this book.

sf

Megad00mer
24-03-2010, 18:15
Is it competitive? Definitely.

Can it be fun to play? Sure.

Is there variety? Lots of different builds can work quite well depending on the local meta.

Is this the book that Tyranid players wanted? Not at all.

Major problems with the Codex:

Lack of Frag Grenade equivalents:This means that within a year everyone is going to realize that simply hiding in area terrain blunts the Tyranid Assault phase to extreme levels. The Close Combat effectiveness of the Army got a lot better overall but we're still squishy as all hell. Having 30bajillon attacks on the charge with rending doesn't mean nearly as much when half or more of the charging brood is dead before they can lift a claw.

Poorly thought out and/or non play tested rules: Lictor's Pheremone trail and Trygon Subterranean Assault holes are borderline useless. Sheildwall, Tyranid CCW's and Mawloc Terror from the Deep are so poorly written that a 10min discussion with an opponent is required before pick up games.

Classic and beloved Tyranid units are relegated to the shelf for the next 6 years at least: Carnifexes are laughable when compared to Trygons. Lictors are never worth taking compared to the other units in the overly crowded Elites section.

I'll continue to play Tyranids. Love the army too much to quit. Can't help but feel though that unless you wear Power Armor and/or sport an Aquilla on your shirt, GW will rush you out the door with no proof read or play test.

Bunnahabhain
24-03-2010, 18:23
I'll continue to play Tyranids. Love the army too much to quit. Can't help but feel though that unless you wear Power Armor and/or sport an Aquilla on your shirt, GW will rush you out the door with no proof read or play test.

Even an Aquilla isn't enough. The Guard book has a fair number of things that proof reading should have caught, and a fair number of truly dire choices, including our favourite dust catchers, storm troopers. Not as many as the nid book though, I'll grant you.

Kaelarr
24-03-2010, 19:05
I really like the new codex. And to be honest, you only get "no brainer" choices if you are going for a tournament set up. Even Pyrovores (which suck in normal games) are not that bad in cityfight games.

Ok Lictors........ someone needs a slap. But aside from that no worries. I think the army has a lot more character then it did before, for instance we now have more then 1 hq choice, an elites section which we struggle to choose from, 5 great troops choices, good fast attack and, most controversial of all, a good heavy support section.

Yes I know, carnifexes are not what they used to be, blah blah blah. They are still pretty damn good, and lets face it, if the enemy are shooting at the scary brood of 3 fexes, everything else is getting along fine... Trygons and primes are great, biovers are good, and the tyrannofex is the silent star of that section, hes a great all rounder which provides suppot to your whole army.

The reason I think people bitch so much about this codex, is that there isnt the one killy death choice there was before, now there are lots of pretty good choices which have to be used in conjunction with each other.

Tyranids win the war of attrition in most cases, you can shoot things down and the finish them off in combat, if you go for all shooting or all combat, prepare to lose and complain.

However the Doom is broken. And will be in most every list, ever.

de Selby
24-03-2010, 19:31
I love how the thread has 36 (now 37) replies, most of which go into detail about how different aspects of the codex rate from terrible to good coming out with an over all decision of probably a little above average in the grand scheme of things.

Meanwhile the poll has 155 votes 65% of which say Good or Great.
:p

It would be interesting to know what proportion are actually tyranid players (new or old). When a new codex includes radical changes you always get players complaining that their optimised army is no longer optimal, and their opponents celebrating this fact without realising that the new codex contains a new optimal army which is just as bad.

There's also the question of what the difference is between average and good. Presumably even an average codex from GW is still good enough to spend money on or they'd go out of business...

Badger[Fr]
24-03-2010, 19:59
The book as a whole is quite good but still suffers from the very same balance issues and poorly written rules that plague the current IG Codex.

Ventus
24-03-2010, 20:20
I voted average. I think for new nid players in particular it is fine (no previous edition/model baggage) with still buggered up areas that old/new nid players have to live with (lictor, ripper, pyrovore, carnifex, etc). I agree with azimaith and stormfalcon about the problems and the shameless buy new toys issue and this is part of the reason I'm having trouble getting motivated. I would have bought at least one pyrovore if it was better - always wanted a nid flame template weapon. I would have bought a trygon (great looking model). I would proabably have bought a venomthrope even though its not plastic and will likely get broken occassionally. I would have bought a couple of boxes of raveners except the price irks me. (I have bought hive guard and plastic gargs - love the models). GW did not have to nerf some of the older models/options to get me to buy new kits. On the contrary it makes me not want to buy more because either through lack of proper playtesting or deliberate changes far too many new units are required as opposed to being interesting options.

hellhammer6
24-03-2010, 20:23
Nidzilla is not gone. In fact it is even worse now.
Many lists will have a Tyrant+2tervigons+2trygons. So instead of 8 MCs, you will now face 5-6 that have 6 wounds instead of 4.

Yeah, the new nids are competetively average at best and I don't think we will see many big tournament wins with it... but I've been proven wrong before! :)

enygma7
24-03-2010, 22:04
I think the "its a good codex" votes are from people who don't play Nids, while most of the "this codex is not very good" comments are comming form disapointed Nid players.

Hate to dissapoint you, but you can't just dismiss the way the vote is going like that. I'm a nid player, I played nids before this codex and I voted "great". The other nid players in our society also really love the new codex. It might be interesting to note that none of us have ever been "nidzilla" players. I think I lot of the online complaining is comming from players who optimised their lists for the previous codex and now see their armies invalidated.

Whilst its understandable people are upset when their entire army is suddenly hosed, I can't pretend I'm not glad it happened. In the previous nid codex nidzilla was the obvious "optimal" build. It didn't fit with the nid fluff and I just didn't want to play like that. Now I can field the army I want to field and know its actually a good army.

I'd also take issue with the idea the new codex is "boring". There are less unit options than before, but all I ever did was sit down with a calculater, work out the most "optimal" configuration for each unit for the job required and used that all the time - not exactly interesting. Now I have a much greater mix of units, multiple build options and the way the nids play is far more interesting - they have become a combined arms army requiring some use of finesse and tactical ability rather than just lining up in the standard 3 wave formation and running at the enemy.

At the end of the day, the new nids are just so much more fun to play (and play against), which is why I gave them great dispite the warts of the new codex.

daboarder
24-03-2010, 22:12
Enygma7 I hate how if someone complains about this crap codex they automatically must be a nidzilla player. Well I HATE the codex and im NOT a nidzilla player, I can't afford to be one and I never found it interesting.

MystheDevourer
24-03-2010, 22:45
Enygma7 I hate how if someone complains about this crap codex they automatically must be a nidzilla player. Well I HATE the codex and im NOT a nidzilla player, I can't afford to be one and I never found it interesting.

You just need to find your niche. I disliked some of the new things that came out of this codex but I love alot of things. hive Guard are beauts along side a Zoanthrope IMO.


Simplest thing for people that hate something is to just get rid of those thoughts and become passive. If you were not playing Nidzilla then the codex must be very helpful to most!

BrotherErekose
24-03-2010, 22:50
Just starting with it, but one sure thing: it's far easier to assemble a list. The previous one had too many options (the flip side of that was good, like Oktober said on post #28. You had those fine 'tweak' options).

In 4e, I would have to have a list printed out with each bug's stats ... and hadn't played it enough to commit to memory.

*That* is one positive.

hellhammer6
24-03-2010, 22:59
Its not that the codex is "terrible." It is just not top tier competetive. This is somewhat dissapointing after experiencing the awsome power of mechanized IG, a codex written by the same author.

Where the codex falls short:
-no invuln saves from shooting on expensive MCs (like hive tyrants)
-no grenades!!!?
-lictors / deathleaper cannot assault on entry (making them almost worthless)
-genestealers aren't effective for their points cost
-carnifex aren't effective for their points cost

This is NOT to say that the new nids aren't fun to play. Many of thier new units/powers are extremely fun, creative, and amusing. Just don't expect to win a high percentage of
games in a competetive environment.

Axis
25-03-2010, 00:15
i dont know why people think genestealers aren't effective. In fact most things in the codex are point for point less effective than genestealers

They got a 2 point decrease and gained infiltrate, while keeping fleet, MTC etc.

They lost out on feeder tendrils and flesh hooks. But everyone knows feeders were massively undercosted.

So all in all you have a pretty cheap and very dangerous unit that lost out a bit in terms of armour and has no grenades. Yes no grenades is bad but you deal with that.

scarletsquig
25-03-2010, 00:37
I really miss the biomorphs, those were awesome.

Ventus
25-03-2010, 01:23
I wish people would stop assuming those that are unhappy with the new codex were all nidzilla players and non-nidzilla types must be fine with the changes. I played a swarmy list and used hormagaunts even though they were way overcosted for what they did, ravenors with their problems, etc. There are a lot of interesting things in the new dex, but many people (me included) are having a hard time getting motivated with the new dex because many of the things we liked are either nerfed, got removed or did not getting fixed properly(such as lictor - love the model but it will probably stay on the shelf). I'm glad that some people enjoy the codex - all the power to you. But accept that others are in the "average" range and others don't like it much at all and that is fine for there is justification for their unhappiness.

Comrade Penguin
25-03-2010, 01:44
I think the "its a good codex" votes are from people who don't play Nids, while most of the "this codex is not very good" comments are comming form disapointed Nid players.

I am a nid player and I voted good. It's not going to be the most powerful codex out there, GW reserves that for their space marine variants, but it is still very potent. I have only lost one of my games with the new dex, and that was the first game I played with a carnifex, mawlock, and that flying independnet character that spawns rippers. Now that I have gotten a chance to read the dex thoroughly I know which units to completely avoid (see above) and which units are solid.

Now I voted good because I think that it is a pretty strong codex when used right. In terms of overall quality, I would say it is average. Internal balance is way off and there are some units and weapon options that are completely redundant. But I can't complain, it beats the CSM army that I am trying to build out of that horrid codex.

LKHERO
25-03-2010, 02:04
I was originally going to do Tyranids as my non-SM army but after looking at the codex (when it first got released), I was extremely discouraged. It just wasn't as good as I hoped for and I think Robin Cruddance really made a mess of things. I blogged about all the concerns I have with the codex.

Vepr
25-03-2010, 11:45
I wanted to wait to give my own opinion because I did not want to start the poll off with any tone myself. In terms of fun I would rate the codex good. There are a lot of interesting and fun to use units that add a lot of flavor. In terms of competitive nature I would rate it average. I am not so much a competitive player so I can live with this. As far as the rules and internal balance I would rate the codex as bad. Their are some really vague rules and the internal balance in terms of point costs is wonky to say the least. So overall I give the codex a rating of average. If they could have cleaned some things up in terms of rules and taken more time with internal balance on points I would have rated this codex good.

This pains me because I am a nid player since 3rd. I have always loved the fluff and figs and general game play. I have marines but I do not play them so maybe I have made the mistake of putting all my eggs in one basket but this codex was a little disheartening for me.

oCoYoRoAoKo
25-03-2010, 14:06
Voted 'good' but that hides my real feelings regarding the 'dex.

I have been playing nids for nearly 14 years now so ive pretty much covered every list type there is. After quite a few games with them, even though they have been performing well, they just dont 'feel' like tyranids anymore. I am not a big fan of the written background in the Dex (one thing which i loved in the previous codes/xenology/etc), and combined with their new playstyle i have found them to be pretty boring and flat (especially when there is an almost mandatory core to most nid armies who wants at least some anti armor).

So on the table top they perform well, but are lacking in the 'nid-ness.

Cy.

azimaith
25-03-2010, 14:19
I agree with that sentiment^

I know what I would have done for Nid anti-armor if I had a shot at it...

Oktober
25-03-2010, 14:24
I love how the thread has 36 (now 37) replies, most of which go into detail about how different aspects of the codex rate from terrible to good coming out with an over all decision of probably a little above average in the grand scheme of things.

Meanwhile the poll has 155 votes 65% of which say Good or Great.
:p

People always cry about how over powered a codex is when it first comes out, but not so with the nids...that itself should be an indication it does not stack up well when compared to other new codexes. I would think that non-nid players are the ones to say it a great codex while a lot of nid players feel we got the shaft.

hivefleetcarrion
25-03-2010, 14:57
average to poor
GOOD
great looking new models
new background and units
synapse fixed

BAD
warrior and carnifex broods needing to take the same weapon.
lictors still crap.
loss of frags on assault units
loss of biomorphs, now normal statlines
every fluff battle being a loss for nids
overcrowded elites section
rules that conflict with each other
overcosted special characters
psychic power choices limited to certin models

genestealer_baldric
25-03-2010, 15:23
i can use it mind use i can "use" little wooden stick men as terminators but it just dosnt feel right is the best way of describing it , i often like reading through codex`s coming up with weird and wonderfull lists then i look at the nid codex and go "why bother"

azimaith
25-03-2010, 15:46
average to poor
new background and units
synapse fixed

What makes you say synapse is fixed. Its still the same problem.

Comrade Penguin
25-03-2010, 15:56
What makes you say synapse is fixed. Its still the same problem.

Agreed. The fact that nid fleeing units don't fall back to the nearest synapse means that any unit caught outside of synapse for one enemy shooting phase will likely be running off the table. LD 6 on things doesn't help.

And don't you dare put a monstrous creature or independent character in a combined combat with gants, that is unless you want to take a handful of 3+ armor saves. I learned this lesson quickly with the new dex.

Vepr
25-03-2010, 16:22
After quite a few games with them, even though they have been performing well, they just dont 'feel' like tyranids anymore.

I got yelled at early on for saying my initial impression of the new nids was "xeno guard". I think Cruddace went with what he knew and what he thought worked with IG but unfortunately it killed some of the alien horde and monster feel of the Tyranids. Things like squads of lictors? :wtf:

Vepr
25-03-2010, 16:25
Agreed. The fact that nid fleeing units don't fall back to the nearest synapse means that any unit caught outside of synapse for one enemy shooting phase will likely be running off the table. LD 6 on things doesn't help.

And don't you dare put a monstrous creature or independent character in a combined combat with gants, that is unless you want to take a handful of 3+ armor saves. I learned this lesson quickly with the new dex.

It is kind of shocking to get to experience the worst of both worlds when it comes to this. No retreat from fearless and running away easily outside of synapse.

TheShadowCow
25-03-2010, 16:28
So on the table top they perform well, but are lacking in the 'nid-ness.

Cy.

This interests me greatly. A standard criticism of the book is "it doesn't feel like a Tyranid army anymore". Why is this, exactly?

Loss of Sx/AssaultX guns?

Loss of being able to add +1 Str or +1I here and there on your units? (not really gone)

Reliance on Zoanthropes/Hive Guard to combat mech at range? (versus the old edition which had... nothing?)

azimaith
25-03-2010, 16:28
The Tyranid codex and the Guard codex are very similar, the only saving grace of the guard is that it overall has more units to bury bad units behind.

AFnord
25-03-2010, 16:35
The codex is good. Many units work really well, without being overpowered, and it's simply fun to play with and against. What drags it down from "great" is a few odd options, like pyrovores, and some oddly pointed upgrades. The fact that you are forced to bring some units is also a bit of a downer (at least if you play in a competitive environment). But all in all, this codex gets "thumbs up" from me.

Ulrig
25-03-2010, 16:37
I voted bad.
I refuse to nearly start all over again building this army. Its a principle thing. I also never played nidzilla....not once. Though I own 7 carnifex (2 Screamers and 5 magnetized) I never used more then 2 Fexs in any army I ever created. Lets not forget spinefist gaunts.

azimaith
25-03-2010, 16:47
This interests me greatly. A standard criticism of the book is "it doesn't feel like a Tyranid army anymore". Why is this, exactly?

Loss of Sx/AssaultX guns?

Loss of being able to add +1 Str or +1I here and there on your units? (not really gone)

Reliance on Zoanthropes/Hive Guard to combat mech at range? (versus the old edition which had... nothing?)

The Tyranid army worked in a very particular fashion and everything had its place.

Gaunts were there to get into combat and hold the enemy there. They were meant to die in droves like a screeching trampling alien horde held back by whatever the defenders could muster.

New synapse lurk, no retreat, and the lack of fleet removed that and this was further hurt by monstrous creatures.

Hormagaunts were meant to be more dangerous and faster, but equally expendable unless you preferred to use them as warriors (which you could).
Feed helps in that aspect but then is ruined by them having a leadership of 6 resulting in them getting annihilated in combat. Previously you used to simply move something else fast with synapse (typically a flyrant) close enough to provide synapse to them, but that instead makes them suffer no retreat, which is almost as bad.

The tyranid army was a wave army. You would have a soft wave of troops who would wash over the enemy and bog down their lines, then you'd have a hard hitting hammer blow that came after in the form of genestealers or monstrous creatures. The loss of gaunts as a viable method of bogging down enemies removed this two wave approach and replaced it with a no wave approach. Why take something that can't do its job? Why not just use the hammer blow since the bog down wave doesn't work?

The Tyranid army relied on synapse as a double edged sword.

In 4th ed synapse was desirable, but not always a requirement. You wanted units in synapse so they would perform their duties well. It was never a punishment for playing tyranids. Now that's all synapse is, its a punishment for daring to play tyranids. In close combat you either get run down/fall back toward your board edge, or you suffer, typically, double the wounds, from no retreat. Why should I buy a 5 point bolt pistol carrying model with a low leadership that is forced to take leadership test every turn its not in a penalty aura or suffer additional penalties.

Its not like a termagant considerably cheaper than say, an ork, who also doesn't have fleet, has an almost identical gun, has a higher leadership, gains leadership in a mob, and doesn't care if he is within 12" of his warboss or not. I think that's worth more than one point!
Synapse is now almost entirely punitive. Oh sure, you're fearless, but if your not in synapse, you're leadership 6. So no matter what you do your screwed. Its either get wiped out entirely in close combat or suffer twice as many wounds. And why do we get this penalty? Just because.

"Hey all your units are fearless if they're in synapse range but must make checks if they aren't, because of that we've artificially lowered your leadership to even lower than what would be normal for a model of thats points cost!"


The Tyranid army had giants, but they were the least among peers. Tyrants were never meant to be the equivalent of a daemon prince in close combat or a greater daemon, instead they were cheaper, more expendable. Now they're the exact opposite with bonus stats tacked on that do us very little good and combined with a doubled price. Now a winged tyrant comes in at nearly a land raiders cost and has really very little practical to show for it. Its weaponskill 7, great, its higher than weaponskill 6, but that doesn't mean a damned thing against nearly all of the enemies in the game.

The tyranid army relied on mutual support in close combat. Gaunts don't kill well now and they didn't before. The only difference is now any unit you charge into combat along side your gaunts is going to suffer as many wounds as the gaunts do, thanks to the no retreat rule. Now its a bad idea to charge a carnifex into combat along side a squad of gaunts because the gaunts dying will get him killed. This works directly against the concept of mutual support.

See a pattern here?
Worse Synapse, Cost, and synergy just killed the codex for many of us. Internal balance put the final nail into, buried six feet deep, and then urinated all over the grave plot.

Honestly, I remember Tyranids becoming un-fun the moment 5th ed rolled out with No Retreat rules/morale rules. But at least then that wasn't compounded by making the hammer blow overpriced. New codex and lo and behold, the same problem is just as bad, the synapse is even more penalizing (and now everyone needs it more than ever due to a generalized drop in leadership across the board for no apparent reason.)

5th ed being a transport edition compounded problems with the wave tyranid army (as in the classic tyranid army) but there are so many ways of solving that without pidgeon holing us into buying a new unit. Hell, back then I had an idea I think would have worked just fine.
(If you assaulted a vehicle you could not hurt otherwise with a number of wounds equal to its frontal armor you would inflict an automatic glancing hit and all models assaulting would be forced to take a dangerous terrain check. If you doubled the armor value you would inflict a penetrating hit. This would represent hordes of tyranids throwing themselves boldily at the vehicle, diving under tracks and into engine intakes so that they could be clogged, broken, and burned away by their natural pyroacids.)

BBWags
25-03-2010, 16:48
I would second the suggestion of people explaining why this codex doesn't feel like a proper tyranid force.

Now granted, I just started playing nids with only some experience playing against them in 4th, but to ME, this book feels VERY tyranid-y.

So I, too, wonder: What is it about the codex or the way it plays that makes long-time tyranid players bemoan the loss of the "'Nid feel"?

LususNaturae
25-03-2010, 17:14
I got yelled at early on for saying my initial impression of the new nids was "xeno guard". I think Cruddace went with what he knew and what he thought worked with IG but unfortunately it killed some of the alien horde and monster feel of the Tyranids. Things like squads of lictors? :wtf:

I would have actually liked to get more IG-ized. Could you imagine if we had nid "platoons" consistsing of 0-2 Warrior squads and 0-4 Hormagaunt/termagaunt squads? Sooo much more potential for a swarm.


This interests me greatly. A standard criticism of the book is "it doesn't feel like a Tyranid army anymore". Why is this, exactly?

Loss of Sx/AssaultX guns?

Loss of being able to add +1 Str or +1I here and there on your units? (not really gone)

Reliance on Zoanthropes/Hive Guard to combat mech at range? (versus the old edition which had... nothing?)

Honestly, it's terribly hard to explain. It's no one single thing. It's a giant mess of changes that moved Nids from an "everything is the same I don't care what dies I will beat you with the others like it" to an elitist, specialized army.

Certain lists are obsolete. In the last codex I ran a Psychic Choir Hybrid - about 5 MC's, 60ish gaunts, twenty T4 varients. It relied on Gunfexes and Deathspitters to pop transports, then used Barbed stranglers and the choir to pin things down before pushing the infantry off the table. It struggled vs fearless, but it was fun and flavorful. That army is gone - there is absolutely no way to replicate it in this codex.

All customization is gone. It's hard to believe that two codexes ago we had a section in the codex that allowed us to invent our very own unit types, and now, we have maybe a couple options for upgrades or guns or USRs - as if we were space marines or something.

The Carnifex going from awesome to ok was a big hit for me personally. The Lictor going from semi-useful to dreadful and outperformed in it's slot was another. The loss of splitting one brood of lictors/Zoans into three made me sad.

These aren't the only things. Every Tyranid player will have their own reason for their unhappiness, but the bottom line is this: The Codex can be good, it can be fun, but it is not what 90% of Tyranid players were hoping for.

EDIT: Azimath has some great reasons above. Loss of the "wave assault" and mutual support was another big issue for me.

blackjack
25-03-2010, 17:26
"I would second the suggestion of people explaining why this codex doesn't feel like a proper tyranid force."

In the old codex Nids where highly customisable. you could "breed" a carnifiex or a hive tyrant to do a particular job, do it very well and only pay pts towards the thing it was desighned to do. This was the Nid way. now you pay for units which have confused roles and usless or redunant abilities.

Here is an example.
Hive Tyrants with psi powers you don't want if they are intended to stay at range, psi powers that you have to pay for contend with shooting attacks making shooty tyrants hyper expensive for what they do. Making psi powers optional would allow sensably priced shooty rants.

Of course the Tyrano fex has been talked to death, it either has a redunant role as anti infantry (everything in the army is anti infantry) or a confused and limited role as anti armor with only 2 BS 3 str10 shots and being forced to pay for a bunch of other weapons that don't compliment the anti armor role.

The Lictor phermone trail and the assault hole are near usless but you have to pay for them.

You pay Pts for stuff you don't want and that any hyper evolving species would have done away with as inefficent.

Old Dex, everything you had was streamlined and dedicated to it's purpose. New Dex too many units have confused roles, usless advantages, or are redunant to other units in the dex that do the same thing only better. The best, most streamlined units are all crowded into the elite section.

genestealer_baldric
25-03-2010, 17:50
this may sound a small gripe compared to the other holes in the codex but things like living ammuntion etc has realy screwed the little guys up.

and it didnt "cure" nidzilla it just changed the models from fexs to tyrgons and trevigons etc..

its basically easy jet now no frills, the frills that they have new fluff which makes no sense and compleatly changing the old fluff as in shadow in the warp and how they move, plus very poor cut and paste jobs adding in new creatures into old fluff.

carnifexs and stealers just *sigh*

ghoulio
25-03-2010, 18:26
Azimath I have to say you pretty much hit the head on the nail for me. I have seen many different people write many different things in regards to this codex and yours is the closest thing I have seen to how I feel.

I agree 100% that Synapse is just a penalty now. I was REALLY hoping for some interesting rules to make it feel like part of our army instead of an aura of punishment (ie fearless and subject to punishing overkill or ld 6...you decide!). One of the main things I miss with this edition is the fact that when things break from shooting/combat they run towards the nearest table edge instead of the nearest Synapse creature like in 4th ed. I *loved* that rule. I thought it was super fluffy and made a tonne of sense. One of ways GW could of made synapse useful and something you WANT to take instead of HAVE to take is to reduce the effect of overkill (like for every 2 wounds you lose by you take one wound, etc.). That of course is just wish listing.

I also like what you were saying in regards to our MCs vs Deamons. I agree that things should be done to make both armies different in how they work since when you compare codex demons and tyranids (4th ed anyways) there were a lot of similarities. One way to make them different was to give Demons invuln saves and serious stats but making the player pay for it while making it so the nids dont have invuln saves and weaker stats, but we SHOULD pay way less for the same thing (although in most cases we pay more). With that being said why are our MCs so freaking expensive when you compare them to demons? A bloodthirster is 250pts. A flying hive tyrant with just ONE of his special abilities is 255pts (like hive commander/old adversary). The BT has higher WS, BS, Str, Attacks, same armor and a 4+ invuln save, furious charge AND Eternal Warrior for LESS points. Why? that makes no sense to me. Things are even worse for the carnifex.

When I first read the 4th ed book after playing with the 3rd ed book I was beyond happy. Almost everything I was hoping for was fixed with some nice extra's tacked on. 5th ed changed a lot of that with the new vehicle dominance, changes to rending and overkill so things popped up that needed to be addressed. When I heard that they were getting a new codex I was super excited especially after reading what phil kelly did with the SW. Then I actually read the book myself and in almost 20 years of playing this game I have never been so disappointed with a book. It's boring, unfluffy, poorly thought out and even more poorly executed. It really does feel like a draft of a final book.

I know I am being super dramatic about it but after spending well over 200 hours painting/building and well over $600 Canadian on an army that I have to redo due to armaments being obsolete/changing for the worse or rules changing on units to make them useless (I am looking at you lictors *shakes fist*) I think I am justified being as put out as I am. This of course is all just my opinion as I know people are happy with the book, and more power to them :) Time to start Orks lol!

Vaktathi
25-03-2010, 18:34
The Tyranid book I've found is very hard to judge correctly.

On one hand it has it's Anti-tank problem fixed mightily, Tyranids can't really complain about that anymore. There are many great units and options in the book. As much as people complain about Warriors and ID (yes, its a weakness) I find them to be one of the best units in the army.

On the other hand, the book has a lot of problems. Gaunts of all types seem to be overcosted in actual play, especially compared with Ork boyz, something they should be able to out-horde if any army could.

The army itself seems very awkward, I always have a hard time coming up with Tyranid lists that can cover all the bases.

Finally, I'll say this, in the 3 games I've played against them, out of a total of 5750pts of Tyranids I've faced so far with the new book, I've left exactly 200pts on the table (Trygon came in last turn and game ended before I could do anything to it), and out of 5750pts of IG/CSM's, I lost 5 Terminators, 2 Oblits, 3 Rhino's, a Daemon Prince and about 14 Chaos Space Marines in total against all those Tyranids.

The book seems like it can do well, but it's just so awkward to work with that it's very difficult to manage.

ekiander
25-03-2010, 19:14
On one hand it has it's Anti-tank problem fixed mightily, Tyranids can't really complain about that anymore.

I really have to disagree with that one. I'd say at best Nids didn't get any better. Basically we lost a whole bunch of decent guns spread around the Army, to 2 good guns in the Elite slot.

Venom Cannon and Barbed Strangler were both nerfed, and with more expensive platforms there are much less of them. Deathspitter isn't as good as it once was with loss of 6' range and 1Str. The Tyranofex is an overpriced mess if you take him as anti-mech and even then its 2 BS3 shots. And all of our other guns are useless. Zoes still have tarpit issues, psychic hood problems, short range, and are now not independent. And our only dependable AV14 CC killer the Carnifex is both overshadowed by other units and too expensive (as if he could catch AV14 anyways).

Oktober
25-03-2010, 19:16
I would second the suggestion of people explaining why this codex doesn't feel like a proper tyranid force.

Now granted, I just started playing nids with only some experience playing against them in 4th, but to ME, this book feels VERY tyranid-y.

So I, too, wonder: What is it about the codex or the way it plays that makes long-time tyranid players bemoan the loss of the "'Nid feel"?

LOL Seriously? you're not joking? Hmmm, loss of biomorphs (no, the 3 or 4 they crappily changed and threw in there doesn't count), the cost of nearly every non-gaunt model going up, and the complete change of the army works together. It's almost a whole new army....some people don't like it because they liked the way the old army played!

de Selby
25-03-2010, 19:16
Although I agree with Azimaith that the 'waves' doctrine is not well implemented in the new codex, I don't think it was before either. To do a wave assault you need a) lots of disposable gaunts, b) cheap/available synapse to actually make them fight, and c) heavy hitters.
In 4th it was difficult to make this work because warriors were slow and relatively fragile considering your army fell apart if they were killed. In 5th they could run and got cover saves, but now your gaunts died twice as fast due to No Retreat (which also hurt anyone you sent in to help the gaunts). With the new codex the same problems occur, although I'm building an army based around big killy units of hormagaunts in the hope that they will actually be able to WIN combats for a change.

In general it's always easier to build an army from the units that Just Work, usually MCs of some sort. GW has never sorted this out. I don't think they're really aware of the issues.



Loss of Sx/AssaultX guns?

Loss of being able to add +1 Str or +1I here and there on your units? (not really gone)

Actually, the replacement of the StrengthS AssaultX system (except, bizarrely, for one weapon: spinefists) and the general lack of customisability (resulting in me having to strip bits off some of my newly illegal units) do rather annoy me. Both were cool features of the previous codex.

Comrade Penguin
25-03-2010, 19:28
Azimaith sums it up pretty well in his post above. The bugs have a very different feel to them now, something that is lost on all the new nid players. I used to be the only bug player at the store I play at, now there is about 3 more new nids players. They are all very satisfied with the new book, but I have noticed that none of their armies follow the "traditional" fluffy nid army. Also, on a side note, I have witnessed them get hammered again and again with their new armies, usually against marine opponents that my old fashioned nid list destroys. Take that for what it's worth when you consider the new codex's power level.

Vepr
25-03-2010, 20:02
I do think that winning with this codex is going to be a challenge long term. I have a feeling it is not going to age well but that is not necessarily a bad thing, in some ways I am looking forward to the challenge. I have never been a fan of brain dead push button armies like IG seems to be now. (Yes I went there IG players :p ) As awkward as nids feel now making me think about every aspect of my list and every move I make will just make me a better player... I hope. ;)

I know it will probably be another 3 years before we see it and it is a bit silly to worry about things that far out but can you imagine how this codex would fair if they changed covers saves again making it harder to get them and dropping them to a 5+ etc. :eek:

LonelyPath
25-03-2010, 20:08
I voted "good". it's above average (in my experience of using it or seeing it being used), but it's far from the strongest codex out there.

rellen22
25-03-2010, 20:26
I only started playing 40k about 6 months ago. I have friends who played forever, but it was not until i heard the nid fluff that i got interested. I went and got the books and the start of some model when i heard a new codex was comming out. I was advised to wait on purchasing more models until the new codex came out.

In january, new codex in hand, i started going over the codex looking for my style of army, and there are a lot of great units (not taking price into account), and my personal favorite Hormagaunts went down in price and/or up in effectiveness, until i realized there where no frag grenades anywhere. They where the only essential upgrade in the 4e book. What is the point of being a fast assault army if you go last more often than not (try getting 30 hormagaunt models to not cross terain even if the enemy is in the open).

The new codex supports a hit and run gurrela tatics style army more sutted to being out numbered and outguned, while the fluff of tynids is such that not only do they ALLWAYS outnumber the enemy (genestealer cult type stuff excluded, which i was never a fan of) but completely do NOT care if 9/10 of their army dies in the process of killing the indigenus life forms, as any survivors would be digested anyway. That is the very reason we had WoN, there where always more gaunts where those came from.

The tyranid way it to bury the defensive line of the enemy under the bodies of the dead, that is why our gaunts are so fragile and cheep. They are the basis of the tyranid army and completely expendable. However, you can not win with bodies alone. TMCs are the heavy hitters wading through the masses of gaunts smashing the harder units that shrug off the gaunts (ie tanks, MCs,ect). The rest of the units are fundumentaly support for the other two groups, and use skill and finess in situations that numbers and/or size aren't enough.

This is my impression of the tyranid army (Many fast weak soft units, a few slow strong tough units, and a few elite special forces units) This worked in the previous codex, but in 5e it seems we need more elite special forces units to cover the much larger strategy (and point) gaps between swarms and TMC, however these slot are taken up by a class that does not really belong in the tyranid army Dedicated long range AT(hive guard , and to a lesser extent the new zoanthrope).

...I talk to much...
anyway, i was so excited to start WH40k and tyranids, but i just can't find my way with this new codex, and it SUCKS:cries::(:cries:

Ventus
25-03-2010, 21:06
A lot of good points that I agree with as to the loss of the tyranid style of play with 5e and the new codex. When a new dex was coming out I hoped that the no retreat shenanigans that azimaith mentioned would be fixed in some way so that you were not penalized for mutual support. I would have been fine with a reasonable cost increase to carnifexes and devourers on MCs. The loss of EW was not a concern if warriors were reduced in price so that you could take sufficient numbers for synapse as they became more vulnerable.

I wanted lictors to be tweaked to make them more useful - didn't happen. Biovores fixed so that they and spore mines were good option - they are better (although only one type of mine) but why does an artillery piece with range have to have a baby sitter or follow the army to avoid synapse problems? I hoped that the biomorphs that had become useless in 5e or that were useless/incorrectly costed were adjusted - instead mostly a loss of customization. Ravernors got fixed a bit but why the leadership/synapse issue for a unit that is supposed to deepstrike or zip ahead of the army? I hope for anti-tank shooting to be adjusted to fix the venom cannon for example - instead it got lumped together in two nice units but this creates all kind of other problems. New units are great to have but when they dominate instead of becoming good options it is frustrating.

I agree with the others that this codex feels like it was rushed. Tweaking the old codex to fix its problems and adding some new units would have been fine. With such an overhaul - significant playtesting was needed to ensure decent internal balance and this did not occur.

Axis
25-03-2010, 23:00
I'm not sure its fair to compare a gaunt to an ork boy because boyz are generally considered to be a couple of points too cheap.

I honestly think that a lot of the complaints (loss of wave wtf?) dont really stick. Those were idealised conceptions that nids never really had. It has never been possible to succesfully run that sort of army. You just get chowed one bit of the army at a time.

My real annoyance is all the complaints about the lack of frags. Yes, this is annoying but its not the end of the world. But what is the point of having cover rules if everything in the game gets frags? There are still times people will go into the open, there are a lot of times you'll still win assaulting into cover.

Complaints about things being made obsolete. There isnt much that is actually obsolete from the old to the new. Just that the prices went up a lot, or the effectiveness went down. This happens all the time with a new codex. There are very few things that are actually illegal now that werent before. The guard dex made some things worse than before...

hellhammer6
26-03-2010, 01:57
Here is a real life example of the new tyranids:

My Swarmlord with full lashguard retinue was multi assaulted by Vulcan and a full thunderhammer stormshield squad termies. Add insult to injury they also tied in my wounded tervigon. The Swarmlord was forced to swing at the termies.(they were in base2base) 3 hits, 3 wounds. 3 successful +3 rerollable invuln saves due to stormshields. No casualties.
Then my tyrant guard managed to get one rend but no terminator casualties.

Then Vulcan killed ALL of the tyrant guard, the termies did 3 wounds to the Swarmlord and then killed the tervigon (who did nothing) Due to fearless/no retreat, the swarmlord took another wound. Next turn the swarmlord killed Vulcan and then was killed himself.

I was unable to get off paroxism, as the termies were in a landraider.

During this mess, epic twin linked marine shooting took down almost the entire rest of my army. The trygons and the doom had not yet come in from reserve.

I was tabled, horribly... and going over and over it in my head, I can't see how things could have gone much differently - even with paroxism (it usually fails due to psychic hoods, as does the zoanthropes ability to crack landraiders.)

THAT sums up my feelings on the new tyranids.

Comrade Penguin
26-03-2010, 02:56
@Axis

The grenades issue isn't that big of a deal on things like gants, as they usually die anyway. But not having them on genestealers, a mid points level creature, is simply unforgivable. Their 5+ armor save means that they rarely survive assaulting anything in cover. Examples you say? Lost a whole squad of them assaulting kroot in cover, and I also lost a bunch to a guard blob in cover. Yeah the guard need 4s and 5s to hurt the genes, but usually some make it through and I have never been any good at making 5+ armor saves. And the kroots str 4 and two attacks each means that those are some dead genestealers. Oh and good luck trying to shoot those kroot out of their 3+ cover save providing patch of woods :mad:

CushionRide
26-03-2010, 03:21
I found sad with the nid dex so far is the harpy, and the parasite. both have interest, the harpy is just cool, the parasite has a few fun options that make it fun to use.

harpy, way to easy to kill. my first game it got one shot killed by a broadside on the first turn. second game it fell first turn to 5 lascannon shots, a bit more respectable. the third game it fell to 5 guys in a bush with sniper rifles. :P

the parasite ive used 6 times and have only spawned a total of 2 ripper bases. total :P depressing luck. i would have been happier if the parasite would generate one ripper base for every kill it deals. screw the toughness check lol

lictors lack the flavor of the last dex. and i discovered the lack of fleshooks was ill thought.
im also not sure how you position the pyrovores in an army :P
o yes and DOOM of Mal'antai is retarded. your gonna see that in almost everyones army :P well those people who like boring lists ^_^

Hoodwink
26-03-2010, 05:13
A few things:

The Parasite can be amazingly deadly when put in a group of AG/TS Gargoyles. The gargs are cheap and offer a unit the Parasite can attach to without hampering its speed. Very good shock unit.

I'm at ends on the Harpy. I see him as a support role. Keep him in the back and be weary of S10 mainly. Otherwise, he's almost a delayed shock unit. Once the enemy advances enough (in the meantime, you sit back and pop off shots), you fly forward and drop 3-5 blast templates in a single flyover. I definitely wouldn't mind doing this to a Terminator squad as you will have so many armor saves, they are bound to fail something.

The initiative reduction on his charge also works well with other units like Termagants who may not normally attack first but have large numbers. Play units in coordinated attacks with other units. Let their abilities compliment each other.

The Lictor really needs its Pheremone Trail changed. It really needs to be something along the lines of:

- Always available for use whether the lictor is on the table or not. Symbolizing the Lictor lurking in the shadows waiting...

- Any unit arriving via DS may take the Pheremone Trail. This would allow the DSing unit to pick anywhere they want to DS. Mark this spot with a marker. This DS zone has a ~4" radius from the center of the marker.

- All units using the DS zone must deploy within the zone. Any models that can not fit will be removed. Otherwise, units may DS as normal rulse apply if they choose not to use the Pheremone Trail.

- The Lictors MUST use the zone. If they are the first ones in, the zone is created where the Lictors are placed.

- This allows it to be useful, but only allows for a single unit to be placed at a time (maybe 2 spore pods since the units could effectively disembark from the pod outside of the DS zone).

- Enemies could take advantage of the zone and move models within it, causing any Lictors to be removed before they came into play. So you'd have to play it wisely, but it would definitely be advantageous to have compared to what they have now.

Balerion
26-03-2010, 06:53
The Lictor really needs its Pheremone Trail changed. It really needs to be something along the lines of:

<snip>
To me, the simplest fix in the world would be to just give him the option to normally Infiltrate in lieu of using his special deployment. That way his pheremone trail would be usable on turn 2, and would actually serve its purpose.

It would allow the Tyranid player to choose between using the Lictor in the herald/homer role via infiltration, or as a surgical commando unit via special deployment.

That, suicidal spore mines, and BS3 Hive Tyrants are probably the three most infuriating things in the codex, to me.

Hoodwink
26-03-2010, 06:57
*watches a Hive Tyrant and Tyrannofex (mobile weapons platform mind you...) stare in awe as to how a blind Hive Guard shoots better than they...*

/snicker

Balerion
26-03-2010, 07:22
*watches a Hive Tyrant and Tyrannofex (mobile weapons platform mind you...) stare in awe as to how a blind Hive Guard shoots better than they...*

/snicker
At least Hive Guard can point to their sentient nerf bow and arrows and say, "these are why we aim so sweet!"

The Zoanthropes are the real headscratcher. They should have absolutely no advantage over a Hive Tyrant when it comes to BS, yet somehow they're badass snipers.... of the mind!

Hoodwink
26-03-2010, 07:37
Well to be the Devil's Advocate, Hive Tyrants have either blasts (which really don't rely that much on BS) or TL weapons (Which mathematically have a higher chance to hit than at BS 3 than a normal weapon at BS 4 )

:)

Balerion
26-03-2010, 07:54
It's more an optical matter of consistency between units and their stats than it is one of game balance or effectiveness. But as I attested to recently in another post, the Tyranid codex completely abandoned internal consistency re: stats, so this is just one example of many.

But I'll admit that 4th edition spoiled me with all those times I got to roll twelve shots and eventually hit with every single one. ;)

Vineas
26-03-2010, 07:55
I vote it "good." Was hoping for great but I had to change too much of my army for my liking.

I do find DL invaluable though. Yeah the PT rule sucks but he is a huge threat to anything and shooting him away is not the easiest unless you happen to be super close. S6 FH attack means you could in theory drop him behind a Chimera or Rhino and try to blow it up (put DL 1" from the back hatch from a Chimera and if it blows up with men inside they have to make an emergency disembark meaning they are auto-pinned). If the squad doesn't get help during the IG turn DL will eat that squad alive (or could just go back into hiding and leave them for something else (say a Spore full of Pyrovores that just happened to land within hugging range of DL)).

I'm having to change my army a lot and so far my old army is 0-10. I'm dumping the carnifexes, dumping Lictors, dumping Termagaunts; adding more Hormogaunts, adding some HG, making Tyrant into a Swarmlord, making Stealer broods bigger (10 just die too fast but when they do manage to make contact they hit harder than before and even deck out weigh in at 70pts less than a brood of 10 in 4th with the added bonus of an even more badass 'stealer able to be morphed from one of the peon stealers), going to try a brood of Biovores (IG and Orks hate pie plates).

So not a horrible codex. I got spoiled in 3rd and 4th (my army literally did not change model wise); now I'm in the same boat as most IG and Marine players. Time to change up lists. Eldar were the first "victims" (in this case self inflicted victimization). I guess it is the Nids turn to join the bandwagon.

Lazarus15
26-03-2010, 13:31
I chose great.

1) The combo's you run vs. the amount of variety in the book is great! I am rolling with about 35 games under the belt now, mostly with one list, but have taken multiple in fun games, and it is brilliant. The idea that I have a fast, maneuverable, and powerful "All-Comers" army is fantastic. Not to mention in my current list, nothing is spammed, which I love.

However, even if you do spam something alot, it is not unbeatable just very powerful. I would have to say I am pleased with almost all the changes and positively surprised about some of the newer units, I wasn't expecting to be blown away about. Hive Guard in example. However, of all the changes, I am most thrilled about Hormagaunts. Originally, I was quite upset with alot of the changes until I fielded them. I think they were spot on, with them, all around, and am overjoyed at being able to use my favorite gribbly once again.

Comrade Penguin
26-03-2010, 14:19
I chose great.

1) The combo's you run vs. the amount of variety in the book is great! I am rolling with about 35 games under the belt now, mostly with one list, but have taken multiple in fun games, and it is brilliant. The idea that I have a fast, maneuverable, and powerful "All-Comers" army is fantastic. Not to mention in my current list, nothing is spammed, which I love.

However, even if you do spam something alot, it is not unbeatable just very powerful. I would have to say I am pleased with almost all the changes and positively surprised about some of the newer units, I wasn't expecting to be blown away about. Hive Guard in example. However, of all the changes, I am most thrilled about Hormagaunts. Originally, I was quite upset with alot of the changes until I fielded them. I think they were spot on, with them, all around, and am overjoyed at being able to use my favorite gribbly once again.

I am curious, are you a new nid player or a long time vet? Because I rated the dex with a good because I think it is competitive, but I am certainly not pleased with ALL of the changes. I'm pretty sure most veteran nid players would agree with me on this one. We don't like the over nerfation of the carnifex and the extinction of the spinegaunt. We don't like the complete loss of our sniperfexs, now illegal if you are playing WSIWYG. We don't like being forced to take upgrades we don't want (tyrant and carni being a prime example). Finally, we lament the loss of the biomorphs, something that made our army stand out from the rest of 40k.

Putty
26-03-2010, 15:48
Azimaith illustrates some of the problems of the new Tyranid codex. Some other guys also mentioned a few outstanding issues that totally defies positive game design by theory alone.

As a disclaimer, I came to be a Tyranid player very late in 4th Ed. Although I am guilty of playing Nidzilla at least a few times, I never went all out Nidzilla (you know, the EIGHT MCs at 1500 variant). In fact, I felt more comfortable playing a variant list that had 2 Dakkarants (one flying), 4 Boomfexes, 3 Zoanthropes and 6 Deathspitting Warriors Psykic Scream Variant.

I also voted this new codex as "Average". Average in the sense that it is not crap like the 40k Daemons. :p

It fixed many issues with various units that were quite "Meh" or abused in the old one like;

1) Zoanthropes that did not come with Synapse by default and using concentrated Warp Blast on a BS 3 was VERY MEH.

2) Expensive Termagaunts & Hormagaunts.

3) Expensive Warriors

4) Deepstrike abilities were also Meh

5) Gargoyles were overpriced

6) Feeder Tendrils on Genestealers was too cheap

7) Elite Carnifexes.

8) Lictors are meh.

9) Confusing Synapse (tbh, i never got the special rule down totally right, except the Eternal Warrior part. :p)

What my peers and my Tyranid playing friends observed is that this new codex has somewhat a mix of good things and some knee-jerk reaction bad things.

Now the good things first;

1) Zoanthropes are great now. Thanks R.C! We really appreciate how they are now.

2) Gaunts are a mix bag of beans. You got the Tervigon but you made Spinegaunts MORE expensive then Termagaunts when the Spinefist is clearly an inferior weapon.

3) Warriors are cheaper now but they lose the Eternal Warrior which made them half decent to run in the last codex. Without EW and the Tyranid Prime accompanying them, Warriors are actually worst then before.

4) Gargoyles got cheaper... they lose Bio-Plasma but they get Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands, that kinda balances it out. Thank god for the new plastic kit too.

5) No more feeder tendrils on Genestealers. Boo!

6) No more elite fexes (it is a good thing). But you can run them in broods of 3. But instead of retaining the customisability of the old fex, it now comes with a stat-line we don't need and we pay all the invisible points for that.

We pay more points for a footslogging carnifex than a Deepstriking Trygon / Mawloc... oh gee... why's that? :angel:

7) Lictors got worst. Instead of having them able to deploy like Marbo, Tyranid players got wannabe Marbos that end up dead (or late, or both) when they get onto the table.

8) Yay to Mycetic Spores!

9) I'm somewhat mixed about the new Synapse rules. It seems better but it still is getting shafted by the main rules about resolving Fearless in combat resolution.

10) Tyrant BS 3... was BS 4 the problem? NO! Living Ammo was the problem, there was no need to remove Living Ammo AND reduce the BS of the Tyrant. Totally un-necessary. Bloody knee-jerk reaction.

11) Venom Cannon becoming a small blast template. WHY? Now it totally can't hit ANYTHING (since it was the anti-vehicle weapon of choice). At least it got the stupid "Glance only" rule fixed. But the thing is, the improvement went forwards... and then backwards.

12) S8 Barbed Strangler died with the new point-cost of the Carnifex. Not only the new Barbed Strangler is S6, a Boomfex now cost... 70% more? Oh I LoL-ed so hard...

13) Dedicated Light Transport Hunter aka Hive Guard. TBH, if the proper issues were rectified, there won't even be a need to create this unit (and its oh so gloriously easy to put together metal model). A lot of the local guys are wondering... why the Hive Guard... is it really necessary?

I think over-all this codex fixed many issues with the previous one, but in fixing some issues, it OVER-COMPENSATED for certain things that brought the codex back to square one... in many respects, it made it somewhat blander and many combos that could be pulled of easier in the old codex are no longer a choice and whatever combos that can be used now require you to jump through 10 hoops just to get it off.

And synergy... it is so difficult to find a balanced list to work with without tearing your hair out. You run out of points bloody quickly. Given, the Tyrant at games less than 2k don't work out now and that the lack of 2+ armor saves and Eternal Warrior also means your army can be wiped off the table by turn 4/5 by Vulkan type armies.

TBH, nobody fears the Tyranids now... all the whoops of joy I heard when Tyranid haters found out that 2+ armor saves for Tyrants and Carnifexes are no longer available. No more Living Ammo, No more BS 4 Tyrants. No more 113 point Carnifexes.

Even the Trygon / Mawloc and Hive Guard which raised a few eyebrows among the Tyranids hating community got quickly lowered when they found out that if their army can deal with Mech lists, they dealt with Tyranid lists that ran these units, easier.

I think the new Tyranid codex still has some potential, barring what changes will there be in the new Core Rulebook. But it is no longer a Tier 1.5 type of army at the moment.

When you can tank shock the entire army into a corner and melta / flame it to death, you quickly realize how crappy Nids has become.

Dunklezahn
26-03-2010, 16:01
I went with good. There are some issues, but that holds true with any dex and it's probably not a tourney army but since we live in the time of mech being the favoured child they were unlikely to be and since I don't play hyper competetive games I'm sure I'll survive.

I think the HVC having a better profile would have helped plenty and trimming a few points off tyrant and Carnifex costs would be better but hey.

One thing I don't get is "Acid Spray Tyrannofex's are irrelevant because we have enough anti infantry" in the same breath as "I can't get units out of cover because I have no frag grenades" Surely a double wounding on 2 against most/all opponents flamer and a decent strength pie plate is exactly the rememedy for that problem?
Hell, wouldn't 3 nice cheap Biovores dropping triple platey goodness help?

Your going to lose people charging cover but that can be handled, stealers can beat many units even when they do go through cover, add Paraoxysm, old adversary, toxin or feel no pain (heaven forbid your linebreaker gets more than one of these effects going for them) and suddenly that combat is a rout. Stealers in this example are also easily replaced with equal cost in hormagaunts.

That and Nid armies can easily be pie plate/blast template-tastic and even marines fall if they are taking saves 5-6 at a time

Someone also said "No more Choir lists" wrong, it's just that the choir is now made of broodlords who I beleive have a similar effect, times change. Add in drop pod armies, increased hormagaunt viability, warriors as troops, breeder armies (Parasite/tervi's) and there are a lot of combinations.

If you don't like the new feel well, that you can't do anything about, you can either sell up or hold off till next edition if you really can't make them play as you want, but you really can't please everybody so it was inevitable.

If you want to be tourney front runners your also out of luck then you are gonna have accept that you are going to have to army chase as rules change, BA, SW and IG seem pretty safe bets. Some armies are going to be better in a metagame than others unless GW managed the mythical "perfect balance" thats pretty much the definition of optimising.

Me, I'm gonna keep seeing what interesting combinations I can come up with, I'll be the guy with a Tyranno, Biovores and a brood of Fex's lead by the Parasite...

azimaith
26-03-2010, 16:20
I went with good. There are some issues, but that holds true with any dex and it's probably not a tourney army but since we live in the time of mech being the favoured child they were unlikely to be and since I don't play hyper competetive games I'm sure I'll survive.

I think the HVC having a better profile would have helped plenty and trimming a few points off tyrant and Carnifex costs would be better but hey.

But hey what? Those are big issues.



One thing I don't get is "Acid Spray Tyrannofex's are irrelevant because we have enough anti infantry" in the same breath as "I can't get units out of cover because I have no frag grenades" Surely a double wounding on 2 against most/all opponents flamer and a decent strength pie plate is exactly the rememedy for that problem?
Hell, wouldn't 3 nice cheap Biovores dropping triple platey goodness help?

If they happen to be where you need them. The tyrannofex is not long ranged (and is freaking expensive) for just getting units out of cover and it doesn't move very fast. You better hope that target just so happens to be in the tyrannofex's path and that you've just got a land raiders worth of points hanging around just in case. A better suggestion is to not buy the tyrannofex and just spend his points on other things so that when they assault they have enough models to still win. 3 biovores dropping pie plates, not really, three biovores is somewhat wasteful. They fire as a barrage weapon meaning that if you actually hit its very likely you won't do anything with the other templates as they are placed to the outer edge of the center template. A couple biovores is fine... until they scatter onto your own troops of course.
No, neither of these are really very good at getting units out of cover, you're easiest method is simply to crush them with something they can't manage or overwhelm them so that you can charge next turn. Those other two are either extremely situational or as dangerous to you as your enemy (if not more so.)



Your going to lose people charging cover but that can be handled, stealers can beat many units even when they do go through cover, add Paraoxysm, old adversary, toxin or feel no pain (heaven forbid your linebreaker gets more than one of these effects going for them) and suddenly that combat is a rout. Stealers in this example are also easily replaced with equal cost in hormagaunts.

Depends entirely what that unit is. Paroxysm (if you can afford the tyrant) along side old adversary is great, but you start realizing how many points your spending here. You just don't need that much to manage it. If its a close combat squad in cover then you may be able to ignore it as it has to leave to charge you and do damage, if its a shooting squad it probably won't win even with the cover advantage unless you throw something weak at it or get unlucky. If its one of those rare squads that's good at everything.. well they're just good at everything.



That and Nid armies can easily be pie plate/blast template-tastic and even marines fall if they are taking saves 5-6 at a time

Yeah, about 1-2 dead. Of course pie plates and blast templates have a funny habit of scattering. In my early games I used a lot of them, but then when the gaunts got close they become a bigger liability to me than to my enemy.



Someone also said "No more Choir lists" wrong, it's just that the choir is now made of broodlords who I beleive have a similar effect, times change. Add in drop pod armies, increased hormagaunt viability, warriors as troops, breeder armies (Parasite/tervi's) and there are a lot of combinations.

No offense, but do you actually play tyranids? Comparing Psychic Scream and Aura of Despair is like comparing a Ferari to a Geo Metro. Both are technically automobiles but one is superior in practically every way. Psychic scream affected everything within 18" constantly and was available on something like 45 point models. Aura of despair you use during the assault phase, requires a psychic test, and only affects 12".

It also goes away before your turn comes around thus you can't actually gain any benefit from it on any of the abilities on your turn (not that GW knows that). It also comes on a model that's 60 points base and requires at least 116 points to even be used.

Psychic scream was overpowered, anyone whose fought a "barbed strangler/scream" list can tell you that. But aura of despair is just awful.

There are a bunch of combination but many are not good combination and the most popular combination (the mixed swarm) is dead, dead, dead, with the way synapse works along with the cost of synapse creatures.

LususNaturae
26-03-2010, 17:48
I think the HVC having a better profile would have helped plenty and trimming a few points off tyrant and Carnifex costs would be better but hey.


Agreed. A better HVC would have given a good reason to take a Fex over a Trygon



Someone also said "No more Choir lists" wrong, it's just that the choir is now made of broodlords who I beleive have a similar effect, times change.

That was me. I thought the same thing at first, started writing a Broolord list with DSing Tyrants with Psychic Scream to cause mass panic in my opponents lines, was terribly excited. Then, I found out the BL power only works in the Assault phase, while Psychic Scream is in the shooting. Massive cussing ensued, and my dreams lay shattered upon the cliffs :(

EDIT: ninja'd by Azimath :p

Comrade Penguin
26-03-2010, 17:53
The tyranofex's flame template can be nice, but with the new cost and fragility of synapse creatures I am of the opinion that any monstrous creature you take should be a synapse. The tryanofex is a heavy point sink that could have been used for tervigons/ alpha trygons/ tyrants. There is also the issue of the tyranofex keeping of the that unit you want to charge in cover. To do this he will have to run every turn, negating his ranged weapons. For these reasons I cannot see taking the tyranofex in any game against a serious opponent.

Vepr
26-03-2010, 18:01
The problem in my area is the amount of wolves players. With a lot of lists running dual priests the chances of not having your tervigon, tyranofex, and carnifex JotWW'd is slim to none. The short range on shadows is annoying when so many powers out range it and hoods and runic weapons cover the entire board. I have only had it come into play for me one time in all the games I have played lately with someone trying to use a force weapon.

I think the way it should have been done is 6 inches per individual synapse creature or unit. 4 synapse creatures or units would empower each other and have a 24 inch umbrella of shadows. Lose one creature or unit and it drops down to 18 inches for the three remaining etc.

Instead Cruddace went with 12 inches which is also the range of vox I believe... hmmm

Lazarus15
26-03-2010, 18:04
I am curious, are you a new nid player or a long time vet? Because I rated the dex with a good because I think it is competitive, but I am certainly not pleased with ALL of the changes. I'm pretty sure most veteran nid players would agree with me on this one. We don't like the over nerfation of the carnifex and the extinction of the spinegaunt. We don't like the complete loss of our sniperfexs, now illegal if you are playing WSIWYG. We don't like being forced to take upgrades we don't want (tyrant and carni being a prime example). Finally, we lament the loss of the biomorphs, something that made our army stand out from the rest of 40k.

I started my Tyranid Investment at the very beginning of 3rd Edition, my good sir. I am also a very optimistic person who believes in and "adapt and overcome" mentality. I stopped debating a few people here, just because of the impass that we come to, such as Azimaith. Good enough guy, and I respect his opinion, but we do NOT see eye to eye on this one.

As far as how the changes affect the army, I personally didn't get affected to bad, due to the fact that I have always been a heavy investor. I surely hate the way this is gonna sound, but I really do have everything in the book as well as multiple FW investments (IE: Detachment of Hierophants/Hierodules). So for me it was as simple as rip some arms off, try three carnifex's one way and three another or together or whatever. I did invest in the "endless swarm" after the collection had grown so the spine gaunt thing didn't really phase me, as after all, I love the hormagaunts and just went back to using them. Even if you don't have everything, it is as simple as ripping off arms, painting some new ones, and gluing them back on. I expect some change with every book. Space marine book came out, I had to buy 3 forgeworld conversion kits from Rhino's to Razorbacks, and learn how to play the army all over again. I ripped off some lightning claws and put on thunderhammer/storm shield on half my termies. Changes are expected every new book, so like I said before, I just adapt and overcome.

Think of it as a new challenge to face all over again, rather than going with the attitude of, "man, now several of my units suck, this book blows..." **no offense intended** ;) My Winged Hive Tyrants became ridiculously expensive and alot worse. I made one into a harpy, the other into a Swarmlord and got two tyrant guard to go with him. Brand new challenge as I have never played a HT with guard before.

CapnBob
26-03-2010, 18:17
Awful. First week after it was out, I did a complete re-write of the rules to make them more fun and more in keeping with the spirit of the fluff. I've been letting the other players in my group use my tyranids with the modified list to compare it with the real codex and so far they think it's much better, though we're still working on sorting out points costs since they say I started out with them too high. If I could slap together something in one week that my OPPONENTS find more enjoyable, then something's wrong with the official release.

nedius
26-03-2010, 18:34
You should have had this pole split into :

Non-nin player: great to terrible
Nid player: great to terrible

It's hard to be sure, but most of the good replies seem to be coming from non-nid players (not exclusively so, however - there are hapopy nids out there too).

I voted bad, for all the reasons many others have stated - I won't repeat them, other than to say I was always an 'elite swarm' army, not nid-zilla.

Vepr
26-03-2010, 18:42
You should have had this pole split into :

Non-nin player: great to terrible
Nid player: great to terrible

It's hard to be sure, but most of the good replies seem to be coming from non-nid players (not exclusively so, however - there are hapopy nids out there too).

I voted bad, for all the reasons many others have stated - I won't repeat them, other than to say I was always an 'elite swarm' army, not nid-zilla.

I was thinking of doing a follow up poll in another 4 months. I am interested to see how peoples feelings evolve on things like codex releases. In the next one I will have to think about maybe dividing it up between nid players and none nid players.

ghoulio
26-03-2010, 18:42
As far as how the changes affect the army, I personally didn't get affected to bad, due to the fact that I have always been a heavy investor. I surely hate the way this is gonna sound, but I really do have everything in the book as well as multiple FW investments (IE: Detachment of Hierophants/Hierodules). So for me it was as simple as rip some arms off, try three carnifex's one way and three another or together or whatever. I did invest in the "endless swarm" after the collection had grown so the spine gaunt thing didn't really phase me, as after all, I love the hormagaunts and just went back to using them.

Even if you don't have everything, it is as simple as ripping off arms, painting some new ones, and gluing them back on.

I expect some change with every book. Space marine book came out, I had to buy 3 forgeworld conversion kits from Rhino's to Razorbacks, and learn how to play the army all over again. I ripped off some lightning claws and put on thunderhammer/storm shield on half my termies. Changes are expected every new book, so like I said before, I just adapt and overcome.

Name me one other book that has to do this. You use the example of changing out lit claws for some TH/SS's on your termies which would just be a couple models. Imagine if EVERY gun in the marine book changed? Like standard bolters got turned into Las Guns, but then they gave the option of combat shotguns which had the old bolter stats...so you had to change ALL your marines armaments. Or your dreadnought could no longer take power fists and HAD to have a missle launcher for their second arm. You get the idea. That is what this book is.

I have been playing this army since 2nd ed, so like yourself I do expect changes (in some cases even look forward to them) but this book just changed all the guns simply for the sake of changing them and selling more models (see spinefists and fleshborer termagants). I honestly cant see any other reason. I do applaud your attitude though as far as trying to adapt and work with the new stuff and change your mode of thinking...I have really been trying to do it myself...just after some games I find it harder then others lol.

Comrade Penguin
26-03-2010, 18:56
I started my Tyranid Investment at the very beginning of 3rd Edition, my good sir. I am also a very optimistic person who believes in and "adapt and overcome" mentality. I stopped debating a few people here, just because of the impass that we come to, such as Azimaith. Good enough guy, and I respect his opinion, but we do NOT see eye to eye on this one.

As far as how the changes affect the army, I personally didn't get affected to bad, due to the fact that I have always been a heavy investor. I surely hate the way this is gonna sound, but I really do have everything in the book as well as multiple FW investments (IE: Detachment of Hierophants/Hierodules). So for me it was as simple as rip some arms off, try three carnifex's one way and three another or together or whatever. I did invest in the "endless swarm" after the collection had grown so the spine gaunt thing didn't really phase me, as after all, I love the hormagaunts and just went back to using them. Even if you don't have everything, it is as simple as ripping off arms, painting some new ones, and gluing them back on. I expect some change with every book. Space marine book came out, I had to buy 3 forgeworld conversion kits from Rhino's to Razorbacks, and learn how to play the army all over again. I ripped off some lightning claws and put on thunderhammer/storm shield on half my termies. Changes are expected every new book, so like I said before, I just adapt and overcome.

Think of it as a new challenge to face all over again, rather than going with the attitude of, "man, now several of my units suck, this book blows..." **no offense intended** ;) My Winged Hive Tyrants became ridiculously expensive and alot worse. I made one into a harpy, the other into a Swarmlord and got two tyrant guard to go with him. Brand new challenge as I have never played a HT with guard before.

No offense taken, everyone's gonna view this codex differently.

So I guess I would fall more into Azimaith's camp. I wasn't hurt too bad by the dex either, since I never ran a nidzilla list. In terms of now illegal models, I have one sniper fex. My biggest beef was the spinegaunts nerf. I had always preferred them aesthetically to the termagaunt, so I had always built mine that way since 3rd. I then traded some of my termagants with a friend to get more spinegaunts in 4th, which effectively gave me a large spinegaunt swarm. I a going to miss seeing them blanketing the table, with a few big nasties wading through them. I feel the new dex is much more akin to a medium size elite force, filled with zoans, hiveguard, and a few monstrous creatures. Yeah you can still use gaunts, but their old role as a fast effective tarpit has been switched to that of a horrible unit with terrible LD, a BS 3 bolt pistol, and no more fleet.

Fixer
26-03-2010, 19:26
It's not just Nidzilla lists. It's anyone that fielded Carnifex that took the GW nerf bat to the crotch this run through. I had some Carnifex that supported my army with Venomcannons. They're now more expensive, less useful and more vulnerable now they've lost their 2+ save.

I had some Warriors with leaping, rending and adrenaline glands. They're now weaker, can't leap and have a powerfist allergy. I had some warriors with Deathspitters, they're now packing a fraction of the firepower they used to.

I had one lictor I used to help with reserve rolls and use to support my army. He's now comically bad.

I have a fairly strong army I've built with the new codex. Not going to compete with top tier like twin lash or Space Wolves but still something that would do reasonably well in a GT. There's just too many units in the book that you would never take because their rules or points costs makes them utterly redundant.

We can't even say it was a clever plan of GW's to force us to buy all the new miniatures they've released either, because look at the Pyrovore!

Vineas
26-03-2010, 19:30
I'll laugh when in a little less than 2 years 6th comes out and changes everything so much that what sucks now makes 'Nids top tier.

It happened to the Falcon/Serpent from 4th to 5th. They swapped roles and what sucked is better than what used to be invincible. Banshee/Harlies swapped places as far as suck vs good.

Not saying RC has insight as to what's going to happen (though I'm sure he has SOME inkling, it's just recent trends show that it's possible for it to happen).

Dreachon
26-03-2010, 20:04
I'll laugh when in a little less than 2 years 6th comes out and changes everything so much that what sucks now makes 'Nids top tier.


It is possible that with 6th the Nids will be better but then they might also get worse and then it's even a question if 6th will come out within 2 or 3 years.

Balerion
26-03-2010, 20:23
Yeah, I don't know why you would assume the nids would automatically improve with 6th. It's been the 1-2 codexes released directly before the new edition that have benefited, not the last 5-6. Look how hard Tyranids 4th was hit by the transition to 5th. No Retreat, less cover for TMCs, comparative loss of speed due to universal running, increased difficulty dealing with vehicles, etc.

I don't think the Wave Serpent/Falcon analogy stands, because on the whole the Eldar codex probably lost some steam in 5th edition, whereas it was top of the pile in late 4th.

Vepr
26-03-2010, 20:32
It is possible that with 6th the Nids will be better but then they might also get worse and then it's even a question if 6th will come out within 2 or 3 years.

With our luck they will drop hard cover to 5+ and all other cover to 6+. :D If they changed the rules on fearless wounds it could help a lot.

blurrymadness
26-03-2010, 20:40
I would expect Fearless to change again, but I don't know how. Before there wasn't a true detriment to it, now there is one. It balances horde armies a bit and makes them more manageable, but I think GW will swing in favor of hordes more so when they change the rules. At the moment EVERYTHING favors mechanized and tough units, in 4th, tough units were kindof big, kind of prevalent, but without a reliable way to get them there you couldn't put all those eggs in all the time.

Combat res was a HUGE change this time, and I imagine it'll be huge against in the next. Maybe it'll be universal, rather than by how much you win lose by. (I.E., no fearless, no LD mods or something goofy?) Who knows?

Ventus
26-03-2010, 20:55
Vepr- if you do another poll in a couple of months it might also be interesting to see the divide (if there is one) not only between nid and non-nid players, but within nid players those who just started with the new codex or returned to nids because of the new dex compared to those that played nids before the new dex came out.

Vepr
26-03-2010, 20:57
Vepr- if you do another poll in a couple of months it might also be interesting to see the divide (if there is one) not only between nid and non-nid players, but within nid players those who just started with the new codex or returned to nids because of the new dex compared to those that played nids before the new dex came out.

Good point. I might run out of options though with the poll size but it would be an interesting addition to the poll. :)

Badger[Fr]
26-03-2010, 21:22
I would expect Fearless to change again, but I don't know how. Before there wasn't a true detriment to it, now there is one.
And that's the whole point of these changes! Without Combat Resolution and No Retreat Wounds, 40k CC rules would grossly favour horde armies. If anything, 4th Edition was all about tarpits, as most Elite units lack the sheer weight of attacks needed to deal with a numerically superior opponent.

Comrade Penguin
26-03-2010, 21:40
Isn't it kind of sad that nid players are hoping for some positive buffs to their brand new codex NEXT edition. My prediction: cover saves reduced to 5+ an 6+ unless in ruins or other hard cover, running will be gone meaning all of our creatures that lost fleet will be stupid slow again, and monstrous creatures will have a natural 5+ invuln save :D

MEPHISTONSRAGE
26-03-2010, 21:54
We have a young gun in our gaming crew who is doing pretty well with the nids. The Hormagaunts seem to be A WHOLE LOT better, watching them. The Trygons absorb alot of fire, and the SwarmLord just kicks it in pretty hard when he gets there.

I don't think they are necessarily top tier, but they are competitive as he has shown that against some of the older hands. As to wanting a new Codex, LOL. Thats like the BA's wanting a new one as well. If they release the DE and another Marine dex this year, (rumors even indicate it could be Inquisition) though I don't really care at this point. It would mean 4 Dexes. Bugs, BA's, Unknown, DE, and Necrons early next year?

thats covering alot of ground. It wouldn't suprise me if they did a new Rule book, if they feel they have covered all of the bases. And I know, I know, what about the Tau? And any others I may have missed? Hopefully, they'll get to them too! :) B4 then! :)

Balerion
26-03-2010, 22:00
I would expect Fearless to change again, but I don't know how. Before there wasn't a true detriment to it, now there is one. It balances horde armies a bit and makes them more manageable, but I think GW will swing in favor of hordes more so when they change the rules. At the moment EVERYTHING favors mechanized and tough units, in 4th, tough units were kindof big, kind of prevalent, but without a reliable way to get them there you couldn't put all those eggs in all the time.

Combat res was a HUGE change this time, and I imagine it'll be huge against in the next. Maybe it'll be universal, rather than by how much you win lose by. (I.E., no fearless, no LD mods or something goofy?) Who knows?
You might be onto something. Maybe we'll see a translation of WFB's rank bonuses, ie. severe outnumbering actually causing wounds in a way like No Retreat does.

Vineas
26-03-2010, 22:44
I think this is the best iteration of CC yet. I always wanted something similar to FB where getting your ass handed to you was bad.

I hated 4th where you could kill 90% of a squad but yet if you didn't outnumber them at least 2:1 there was no penalty.

With the sole exception of 3rd the cycle has been 4-5 years for editions. 5th came out summer of 2k8 so I expect no later than 2013 for 6th.

As far as what I'm keeping in my army the loss of some stuff isn't that horrible IMO. No grenades for stealers? Don't charge squads that can really hurt them (like 50 man IG squads in a ruined building) or 30 ork boys in cover.

The loss of 4+ does hurt stealers a bit but again, don't assault into cover if possible. Charge a squad in cover with something Fearless that doesn't need grenades to survive (SL comes to mind or perhaps a brood of Warriors, who aren't going to really be rattled that much by non-PF/TH toting dudes) and so long as those squads hold than the stealers can assault the following turn and that squad that is in cover no longer gets the bonus for being in cover.

Hell, lob a bunch of termagant shots at orks or IG in cover. If they don't go to ground they'll lose a bunch of guys. If they go to ground they lose the advantage of cover when assaulted JUST to improve their cover save (and even going first a 10man IG squad, hell even marines) have no prayer in hell against 10 or 12 stealers.

ekiander
26-03-2010, 23:31
Charge a squad in cover with something Fearless that doesn't need grenades to survive (SL comes to mind or perhaps a brood of Warriors, who aren't going to really be rattled that much by non-PF/TH toting dudes) and so long as those squads hold than the stealers can assault the following turn and that squad that is in cover no longer gets the bonus for being in cover.

I don't think we have the points to really do this. It's almost like saying tactical marines suck well just bring, a terminator squad or land raider with each one to help them out


Hell, lob a bunch of termagant shots at orks or IG in cover. If they don't go to ground they'll lose a bunch of guys. If they go to ground they lose the advantage of cover when assaulted JUST to improve their cover save (and even going first a 10man IG squad, hell even marines) have no prayer in hell against 10 or 12 stealers.

Do you mean Biovore???

Tapok
26-03-2010, 23:58
My thoughts on this book:

1. It's the most powerful army out there, now. Stopping it is hard.
2. Screw Mawlocks. SERIOUSLY. 4 Wounds would have made sense. 6 is obscene for what else it can do.
3. I'm am not glad that Broodlords are an upgrade unit one iota. It makes them very difficult to pick out.
4. We need "Shoot the Big Ones!" back
5. The Doom of Malan'Tai is the most hideous thing ever and it can take a running jump.
6. Cruddace has no business writing Codexes and he has RUINED CHRISTMAS

Lazarus15
27-03-2010, 00:11
No offense taken, everyone's gonna view this codex differently.

So I guess I would fall more into Azimaith's camp. I wasn't hurt too bad by the dex either, since I never ran a nidzilla list. In terms of now illegal models, I have one sniper fex. My biggest beef was the spinegaunts nerf. I had always preferred them aesthetically to the termagaunt, so I had always built mine that way since 3rd. I then traded some of my termagants with a friend to get more spinegaunts in 4th, which effectively gave me a large spinegaunt swarm. I a going to miss seeing them blanketing the table, with a few big nasties wading through them. I feel the new dex is much more akin to a medium size elite force, filled with zoans, hiveguard, and a few monstrous creatures. Yeah you can still use gaunts, but their old role as a fast effective tarpit has been switched to that of a horrible unit with terrible LD, a BS 3 bolt pistol, and no more fleet.

If you would like to PM me there are a few people running massive swarm style armies and doing very well. I can give you the break down on the list. He does run termagaunts and alot of them! If it is your personal favorite, then yeah unfortunately spine gaunts are a point more, but if you like it, go with it! If not, just make the termagaunts. ;)

Name me one other book that has to do this. You use the example of changing out lit claws for some TH/SS's on your termies which would just be a couple models. Imagine if EVERY gun in the marine book changed? Like standard bolters got turned into Las Guns, but then they gave the option of combat shotguns which had the old bolter stats...so you had to change ALL your marines armaments. Or your dreadnought could no longer take power fists and HAD to have a missle launcher for their second arm. You get the idea. That is what this book is.

Indeed, it is an undertaking. 3rd to 4th ed Orks got a HUGE change! 3rd to 4th Eldar changed a fair amount as well. My current swarm of around 350-400 models is currently being repainted from head to toe and getting re-based. But in the end, they are plastic models so the breaking, painting, and so on should be relatively easy. Better than metals!

I have been playing this army since 2nd ed, so like yourself I do expect changes (in some cases even look forward to them) but this book just changed all the guns simply for the sake of changing them and selling more models (see spinefists and fleshborer termagants). I honestly cant see any other reason. I do applaud your attitude though as far as trying to adapt and work with the new stuff and change your mode of thinking...I have really been trying to do it myself...just after some games I find it harder then others lol.

Well thank you sir! :cool: Originally I was upset too, however, my Mrs. told me to look at it with fresh eyes, and as a whole new challenge. Women huh? ;)

daboarder
27-03-2010, 00:29
My thoughts on this book:

1. It's the most powerful army out there, now. Stopping it is hard.
2. Screw Mawlocks. SERIOUSLY. 4 Wounds would have made sense. 6 is obscene for what else it can do.
3. I'm am not glad that Broodlords are an upgrade unit one iota. It makes them very difficult to pick out.
4. We need "Shoot the Big Ones!" back
5. The Doom of Malan'Tai is the most hideous thing ever and it can take a running jump.
6. Cruddace has no business writing Codexes and he has RUINED CHRISTMAS

I see what you did there!:shifty: But I feel like feeding the troll so here goes.

1.What are you smokin, and can I have some?
2. It lacks CC attacks, It's main rule is poorly written and it has no invuleranble save so is still vulnerable to hidden fists.
3.They no longer have power weapons and are one of the ONLY means of accessing any form of "grenade" in the codex. Not to mention they're expensive.
4.What game are you playing? "shoot the big one" is basically part of the core rules now.
5.OOOWWW big scary Doom is after you oh noes! might have to hit it with some autocannon's and that is unbelievably hard to do...whatever mate.
6. I actually agree. Cruddace DOES have no business writing a codex if this is what he does when it is not his beloved guard.

MasterDecoy
27-03-2010, 00:52
I was going to stay out of this debate, but I just have to pipe in on somthing I saw on the last page:

"Spinefists are an inferior weapon to the fleshborer"
The above statement is totally false, I keep seeing it brought up time and time again but wheres the basis? Get informed people, Just because it has the same percentage of killinng a marine as the fleshborer does and costs a point extra doesnt make it inferior, run the numbers, look the the whole picture, its far superior at killing T3 and T2 enemys, Exactly the same Vs T4 enemys, a little bit worse against T5 enemys, and miles ahead vs T6 enemys.

How can a weaponn that is the same or better vs 4 out of 5 groups of common enemys be worse just because it cost an extra point?

Seriously, use some common sense here please.....

Putty
27-03-2010, 01:34
I was going to stay out of this debate, but I just have to pipe in on somthing I saw on the last page:

"Spinefists are an inferior weapon to the fleshborer"
The above statement is totally false, I keep seeing it brought up time and time again but wheres the basis? Get informed people, Just because it has the same percentage of killinng a marine as the fleshborer does and costs a point extra doesnt make it inferior, run the numbers, look the the whole picture, its far superior at killing T3 and T2 enemys, Exactly the same Vs T4 enemys, a little bit worse against T5 enemys, and miles ahead vs T6 enemys.

How can a weaponn that is the same or better vs 4 out of 5 groups of common enemys be worse just because it cost an extra point?

Seriously, use some common sense here please.....

I can tell you that is totally false too because you are essentially paying 1 point more for an effect that is virtually the same across the board despite what Math-hammer says.

AND it is very annoying to have a bucketful of Spinegaunts that are quite pointless to have since the Tervigon cannot produce Spinegaunts.

Individually, many of the new Tyranid codex units look okay, however, collectively the army performs like an ass. Remember the previous Space Marine codex? The new Tyranid codex is just like that. A book of "forced" choices with no choices.

ekiander
27-03-2010, 02:00
I was going to stay out of this debate, but I just have to pipe in on somthing I saw on the last page:

"Spinefists are an inferior weapon to the fleshborer"
The above statement is totally false, I keep seeing it brought up time and time again but wheres the basis? Get informed people, Just because it has the same percentage of killinng a marine as the fleshborer does and costs a point extra doesnt make it inferior, run the numbers, look the the whole picture, its far superior at killing T3 and T2 enemys, Exactly the same Vs T4 enemys, a little bit worse against T5 enemys, and miles ahead vs T6 enemys.

How can a weaponn that is the same or better vs 4 out of 5 groups of common enemys be worse just because it cost an extra point?

Seriously, use some common sense here please.....

When you say better your only talking about a fraction of a percent better either way. But either way both guns are pretty bad and are just basic bolters. So what your going for when you take either is pure cheap force of numbers swarm. Adding upgrades to a unit that don't really upgrade them and still keeps thier roll as pure cheap force of numbers swarm kind of makes them useless.

Lazarus15
27-03-2010, 02:11
My thoughts on this book:

1. It's the most powerful army out there, now. Stopping it is hard.
2. Screw Mawlocks. SERIOUSLY. 4 Wounds would have made sense. 6 is obscene for what else it can do.
3. I'm am not glad that Broodlords are an upgrade unit one iota. It makes them very difficult to pick out.
4. We need "Shoot the Big Ones!" back
5. The Doom of Malan'Tai is the most hideous thing ever and it can take a running jump.
6. Cruddace has no business writing Codexes and he has RUINED CHRISTMAS

1) I agree. Except generally that is how they have always been.
2) Not sure where to take this one. Not a bad unit at all. Deny objectives, giant start cannon blast, still a monstrous creature so can assist an assault or charge a vehicle later.
3) They are not that great in the new book, compared to the old one.
4) Um....that is long gone.
5) It is pretty good. However there are plenty of other things to run in an army.
6) I thoroughly disagree. A few things are a bit dodgy, but on the whole I rather like the book.

fwacho
27-03-2010, 04:54
took it to a tourney last weekend. 1-1-1. almost was 2-0-1 except I got greedy. I think the new book is about right. I don't run doom or any other named characters. I am a fan of death spitters. They provide just enough encouragement to make the enemy come to you. I you run a 9 strong warrior unit it just never seems to die.

The codex is FUN to play with and about average on strength ( I had a sisters player eat me alive. (I lost two zoanthropes to tank shock . (how do you fail on twice in a row like that?!)

MasterDecoy
27-03-2010, 05:40
I can tell you that is totally false too because you are essentially paying 1 point more for an effect that is virtually the same across the board despite what Math-hammer says.

AND it is very annoying to have a bucketful of Spinegaunts that are quite pointless to have since the Tervigon cannot produce Spinegaunts.

Individually, many of the new Tyranid codex units look okay, however, collectively the army performs like an ass. Remember the previous Space Marine codex? The new Tyranid codex is just like that. A book of "forced" choices with no choices.

but, it IS better, even if its fractionally better, why shouldnt you have to pay for an option that is better?

if it was free it would be the no brainer option instead wouldnt it.....

valthonis
27-03-2010, 05:51
I have been out of 40k for nearly 5 years now, mostly played back around the beginning of 3rd edition. Played a little bit of everything at the time, Sisters of Battle and Necrons before they had a real codex, but my love really were my Tyranids.

I'm getting older and certain much wiser to value fun over winning, but I have to ask as I'm contemplating getting back into the game. Does the new codex give much way to a mostly HTH army? Again, winning isn't my primarly goal, but I love a good looking army even if it can't win against everyone. But I still don't want to see my butt completely handed to me in any scenario.

CushionRide
27-03-2010, 06:08
I ..... We don't like the over nerfation of the carnifex and the extinction of the spinegaunt. ........ Finally, we lament the loss of the biomorphs, something that made our army stand out from the rest of 40k.

i agree with a little of this, the sniperfex's were fun i will admit, and bomorphs rocked. honestly the last codex worked with the current rules for the most part they really only needed to change a couple of things. like feeder tendrils

but to say the carney is nerfed :P i dont think so. if you make each one in a single brood different somehow than you can spread the wounds out making the brood last a whole lot longer. then upgraded properly they can have init 4 on a charge. i think thats pretty cool, unfortunately you will only see a carney now in a larger game. sad

i see the biggest arguement is a lack of armor peircing ranged weapons. what people forget is the ranged weaponry is not ment to penetrate armor. its ment to distract and annoy while monsterous creatures get armor into hand to hand.

Lazarus15
27-03-2010, 06:41
I have run a carnifex of doom squad 3 times now, and when you combine that with the rest of the army, they just don't die. Whatever they attack dies. 4 attacks each, , plus d3 each plus one for charging. That is up to 24 attacks hitting on 4's and re-rolling ones that obliterate whatever they hit. Also in the list, two squads of 18 guants, 3 squads of stealers, 3 zoanthropes, 3 raveners, the SL and Tyrant Guard. Fair amount of models but the carnifex's although are expensive, are rediculous. Depending on the mission, move / run, move / run (maybe assault?), then for sure at Turn 3, move and assault. The role has changed some but carnie's are just fine in my book. :-)

JagdWehrwolf
27-03-2010, 06:42
...if you make each one in a single brood different somehow than you can spread the wounds out making the brood last a whole lot longer.

The only problem is that You are not allowed to mix weapon loadouts in a brood. Check asterisk in Carnifex Brood entry, page 94.

Vaktathi
27-03-2010, 06:43
but to say the carney is nerfed :P i dont think so. if you make each one in a single brood different somehow than you can spread the wounds out making the brood last a whole lot longer. You can't upgrade them like that, they all must be equipped identically.

daboarder
27-03-2010, 06:53
but, it IS better, even if its fractionally better, why shouldnt you have to pay for an option that is better?

if it was free it would be the no brainer option instead wouldnt it.....

Actually when you play with integer's as we do iirc they are exactly the same. But even if its better the problem isn't that we have to pay for a better upgrade, its that they only swaped the points around because we already OWNED a bucket load of spines and so they made it so we want termagants instead. Regardless of you're opinion on the book NO ONE in their right mind should argue that the change to spinegaunts was nothing but a money grubbing scheme almost beyond belief, and yes GW is a company but the also have a RESPOSIBILITY to their consumers and quite frankly the tyranid codex does not fit with that.

ekiander
27-03-2010, 06:54
but, it IS better, even if its fractionally better, why shouldnt you have to pay for an option that is better?

if it was free it would be the no brainer option instead wouldnt it.....

It is not better its better in some situtions and worse in others.

Fleshborer S4 AP 5 assault 1
Spinefist S3 AP 5 assault 1 twin linked

So here are the wounds per shot. 0.75 hits for spine fist and 0.5 for fleshborer

____SF___FB__
T3 0.375 0.335
T4 0.249 0.250
T5 0.125 0.165
T6 0.125 0.083

And the fleshborer can glance rear armor 10. So the only situation a spine fist is better is T3.

Anyways none of that matters. If you take a spinegant it isn't all of a sudden a gaurdsmen. It has no affect on the gant from a tactical stand point. They get no advantage and you would use them exactly how you would use them with a fleshborer. It's bad because what you want in that role is a cheap as possible swarm so adding any points goes against that. Ergo, spinefists are useless.

ekiander
27-03-2010, 07:01
I have run a carnifex of doom squad 3 times now, and when you combine that with the rest of the army, they just don't die. Whatever they attack dies. :-)

TH/SS terminators in a land raider will statistically wipe this out in one turn and always get the charge and thats with 0 shooting before hand.

ShadowDeth
27-03-2010, 07:58
I voted great.

I've played Nids a few times in (3rd)4th, and 5th. I'm not primarily a nid player.

I've played against them even more in both editions.

This new book is vastly superior to the previous two I've seen.

There is more variety, internal balance and logical connections of rules vs fluff.

I'm excited I don't have to see 2 Tyrants, and 6 Carnifex anymore. I'm excited Hormaguants are useful now - without moving too fast for a troop selection without a transport, Gargoyles are now playable and their model is now buyable.

I also don't care what old Nid players say, the vast majority of the 4th edition book was total, and utter garbage. There is a very clear reason why most people who wanted to stay "competitive", resorted to MC spam.

The new book presents many, many options and playable styles. And just like the old book, I presume ONE singular power build will become apparent in the upcoming year and and then the only thing to bemoan is the need to buy new models. For someone like myself who is long past the competitive gaming phase of his life, new life in the book is more important than win percentages.

ehlijen
27-03-2010, 08:23
So here are the wounds per shot. 0.75 hits for spine fist and 0.5 for fleshborer

____SF___FB__
T3 0.375 0.335
T4 0.249 0.250
T5 0.125 0.165
T6 0.000 0.083

And the fleshborer can glance rear armor 10. So the only situation a spine fist is better is T3.


Those numbers aren't quite right. They should be exactly equal vs T4 and T6.
So the spinefist is better vs T3, equal at T4 and T6.

So you trade superiority vs T3 for superiority vs T5, 7 and AV10. Given that the gants role mostly pits them against other basic troopers, that is a good choice to make.

I agree in that it probably should have been a better bonus to make them cost an extra point, but they are not actually equal weapons.

Chaos257
27-03-2010, 08:40
Everything is too expensive therefore the list fails.

MasterDecoy
27-03-2010, 13:46
Those numbers aren't quite right. They should be exactly equal vs T4 and T6.
So the spinefist is better vs T3, equal at T4 and T6.

So you trade superiority vs T3 for superiority vs T5, 7 and AV10. Given that the gants role mostly pits them against other basic troopers, that is a good choice to make.

I agree in that it probably should have been a better bonus to make them cost an extra point, but they are not actually equal weapons.

to be fair, spinefists are actually is a lot better vs T6 because the spinefists are twinlinked and they both wound on 6's so they get far more hits but cant hurt T7, but really, how many T7 things do you see in the game?

Spinefists are better for anti infantry, you cant argue against it. give them adrenal glands (yeah yeah, another point) and they can threaten light vehicles as well and are even better vs infantry.

Comrade Penguin
27-03-2010, 16:43
but to say the carney is nerfed :P i dont think so. if you make each one in a single brood different somehow than you can spread the wounds out making the brood last a whole lot longer. then upgraded properly they can have init 4 on a charge. i think thats pretty cool, unfortunately you will only see a carney now in a larger game. sad


As everyone else has mentioned you cannot play the wound allocation game with them. The Carnifex, if viewed in a vacuum isn't terrible. But for 30-40 more points you can get a much better in choice in the mawlock or the trygon. I have tried these squads of uber doom and they are way too slow and likely to get boged down by large squads or TH termies. The trygon has drop pod deep strike, two more wounds and attacks, and has the option to become a synapse. In every game I ave tried the carni he has failed to do anything efficient and with his 3+ armor means that he dies way too fast.

As for the fleshborer/spinefist debate, I don't really care what the mathhammer says. The fleshborer needs 4s to wound all those MEQs out there, and there are way better ways to take out guard than spinefists. I don't take gants to kill things, I take them to have mass bodies and overwhelm and tarpit the enemy. Paying extra points for them, even if it is only one point, is not something I am willing to do. Also spinefists can glance rear armor on tanks, something that can be very useful when you start to envelop the enemy lines.

Also, someone else mentioned how the tervigon can only produce termagants. This seems like yet another dig at the veterans who took spinegants as our primary gant of choice for years, as we have piles of them and very little termagants.

Ulrig
27-03-2010, 17:28
its a internal balance thing

all of you people saying it is great.....you are just wrong. I can accept good from people....just not great....that is pushing it.

Carinfex Vs. Trygon = Fail
The points just do not add up. You are hurting your whole army by taking unnecessary points in the fex when there is a new unit out there that is more bang for your buck at the cost of new models.

Spinegaunt Vs. Termgaunt = Fail
What part of "Horde" or "swarm" did he not understand when he wrote the book. Spine is no longer the "bolter" choice for no other reason than cruddace felt like it. Losing fleet and WON.....and you say this codex is "great"

Synapse = Fail

Hive Tyrant/Flyrant Vs Trygon = Fail
Forced to take options in an inflated point cost up against the new shiney trygon.

Genestealers = Fail All they really needed was a points fix. They lost frags and 4+ save making them about as harmful as carebears in CC. The new version is the only ones worth taking imo.

Lictor = EPIC FAIL
Before in 4th we were being poked in the eye with stick. Cruddace decided it should be rusty nails now for no other reason than his ammusment.

All of you "I am glad I no longer see nidzilla" people in reference to the carnifex. I am so glad you are eager to see entire model ranges; that people have put a lot of time and money in become near worthless.


I keep talking myself out of putting it on ebay each and every day. I have played nids since 3rd. I never played Nidzilla. I REFUSE to buy new models simply because GW felt it was easiest to get me to buy them by screwing over my previous choices with no regard to balance. I WAS going to buy several new trygon models along with hive guard. I had money set aside for it. I changed my mind when I seen what they done. It is like a guy trying to sell you one of two houses....only one of them is on fire. I REFUSE to rip the arms off my gaunts just so I am not putting a handicap on myself in points.

ekiander
27-03-2010, 17:45
Spinefists are better for anti infantry, you cant argue against it. give them adrenal glands (yeah yeah, another point) and they can threaten light vehicles as well and are even better vs infantry.

If that infantry are Gaurdsmen, Eldar and Carnifex yes. And adrenal Glands only work on the charge not in the shooting phase.

ShadowDeth
27-03-2010, 19:24
its a internal balance thing

all of you people saying it is great.....you are just wrong. I can accept good from people....just not great....that is pushing it.

Carinfex Vs. Trygon = Fail
The points just do not add up. You are hurting your whole army by taking unnecessary points in the fex when there is a new unit out there that is more bang for your buck at the cost of new models.

Spinegaunt Vs. Termgaunt = Fail
What part of "Horde" or "swarm" did he not understand when he wrote the book. Spine is no longer the "bolter" choice for no other reason than cruddace felt like it. Losing fleet and WON.....and you say this codex is "great"

Synapse = Fail

Hive Tyrant/Flyrant Vs Trygon = Fail
Forced to take options in an inflated point cost up against the new shiney trygon.

Genestealers = Fail All they really needed was a points fix. They lost frags and 4+ save making them about as harmful as carebears in CC. The new version is the only ones worth taking imo.

Lictor = EPIC FAIL
Before in 4th we were being poked in the eye with stick. Cruddace decided it should be rusty nails now for no other reason than his ammusment.

All of you "I am glad I no longer see nidzilla" people in reference to the carnifex. I am so glad you are eager to see entire model ranges; that people have put a lot of time and money in become near worthless.


I keep talking myself out of putting it on ebay each and every day. I have played nids since 3rd. I never played Nidzilla. I REFUSE to buy new models simply because GW felt it was easiest to get me to buy them by screwing over my previous choices with no regard to balance. I WAS going to buy several new trygon models along with hive guard. I had money set aside for it. I changed my mind when I seen what they done. It is like a guy trying to sell you one of two houses....only one of them is on fire. I REFUSE to rip the arms off my gaunts just so I am not putting a handicap on myself in points.

Cry me a river, seriously.

Did you expect the book to remain the same? Your upgrades still withstanding? News flash hot-shot, that's what GWS does with their game. I'm sorry that their cheapest termagaunt weapon upgrade isn't the cheapest anymore, and that you have models with spinefists that don't cut it anymore.

Who cares? It sounds to me like you got complacent with unbalanced rules (in nids favor) and now that things have been scaled back your butt hurts.

You also gave away your position by stating certain things give more "bang for your buck" and "not worth the points". Sounds to me that you only care about being competitive. The rules developers push models and don't care about tournament players.

And if you don't play tournaments, what's the issue then? Shouldn't this all be in fun, or can you not play something that isn't number crunched?

JagdWehrwolf
27-03-2010, 20:02
@ ShadowDeth:
You`re not playing nice man. Ulrig just pointed out the issues that he and ,apparently a lot of other players have with a new codex. And You instead of stating Your position on said issues refered to personal attack on him. Criticize the post not the poster.

Vineas
27-03-2010, 20:37
Stealers = fail?

What are you smoking? Sure they die faster but they are cheaper so you can take more of them. Don't want more stealers? Well, use the points saved to buy HG.

Loss of grenades isn't that huge unless you want to charge 30 orks in cover or 50 IG in cover. If you charge ANYTHING into 30 orks in cover you will lose badly (unless you charge in with twice as many points). 5 TH/SS terminators will not want to charge 30 orks (even out of cover as they'll still go last).

My stealers die faster. Solution: I reduced the amount of units and made them bigger. Result: They lose more but thanks to extra bodies end up hitting with as many as previous and the sacs make them a LOT deadlier. If I know I'm facing IG I'll pay for Glands as the S5 vs Ogryns T5 (and yes, Ogryns are very popular because they rock) with rerolls to wound will help me out in combat against them.

Ulrig
27-03-2010, 21:55
Cry me a river, seriously.

This is a forum about the codex 2 months after release. I am not the first nor will be the last to state their opinion about dissatisfaction with it. But hey...thanks for making it personal.



Did you expect the book to remain the same? Your upgrades still withstanding? News flash hot-shot, that's what GWS does with their game. I'm sorry that their cheapest termagaunt weapon upgrade isn't the cheapest anymore, and that you have models with spinefists that don't cut it anymore.

Um...new book....new codex I expected some improvements. We got some improvements. But I did not expect all the fails that I mentioned...we only get a codex every so often....GW could of done so much better. Units change from codex to codex. Some units come and some go. That is to be expected. All of my list under the old codex were over all really balanced. I never played nidzilla...but I pretty much have to start all over again with nids or nearly use all count as.
The change from spinefist to term is as pointless as any other race having to switch their main weapon for no reason over the other. Go ahead and rip off all the arms/weapons off of your space marines or preferred race. This is what the new codex steers us towards.



Who cares? It sounds to me like you got complacent with unbalanced rules (in nids favor) and now that things have been scaled back your butt hurts.

What unbalanced rules (in nids favor)? The codex was really showing some age. What was so broken and overpowered? And with my non-nidzilla list...at best it was ties....but I had fun playing



You also gave away your position by stating certain things give more "bang for your buck" and "not worth the points". Sounds to me that you only care about being competitive. The rules developers push models and don't care about tournament players.

I like being competitive and having fun. But seriously there are units in the codex where the cost is not justified in their point value. It is a serious internal balance problem in the book...as my post was about. Was this even play-tested.



And if you don't play tournaments, what's the issue then? Shouldn't this all be in fun, or can you not play something that isn't number crunched?
I play for fun with a friend. But the point values of everything *help* keep this game balanced. My friend would not play with me If I disregarded the point values and I would not blame him

Ulrig
27-03-2010, 22:02
Stealers = fail?

What are you smoking? Sure they die faster but they are cheaper so you can take more of them. Don't want more stealers? Well, use the points saved to buy HG.

Loss of grenades isn't that huge unless you want to charge 30 orks in cover or 50 IG in cover. If you charge ANYTHING into 30 orks in cover you will lose badly (unless you charge in with twice as many points). 5 TH/SS terminators will not want to charge 30 orks (even out of cover as they'll still go last).

My stealers die faster. Solution: I reduced the amount of units and made them bigger. Result: They lose more but thanks to extra bodies end up hitting with as many as previous and the sacs make them a LOT deadlier. If I know I'm facing IG I'll pay for Glands as the S5 vs Ogryns T5 (and yes, Ogryns are very popular because they rock) with rerolls to wound will help me out in combat against them.

In when I say = Fail
I should of included I mean in that the purpose of the stealer from the origin has been to OWN everything in CC. No questions asked...they will mess you up.
Now they are much cheaper and weaker. How is this different than hormagaunts? In your own post you admitted they succeeded combat by numbers now.

Balerion
27-03-2010, 22:31
Spinefists are better for anti infantry, you cant argue against it. give them adrenal glands (yeah yeah, another point) and they can threaten light vehicles as well and are even better vs infantry.
You're still wrong, though. You're comparing one spinefist to one fleshborer, which is a dishonest way of making the numbers work for you. The only fair way to compare the two weapons is on a point-for-point basis. This is because spinegaunts and termagants serve an identical battlefield role. Whatever you want your spinegaunts to achieve is the same thing you'd want your termagants to achieve, and vice versa.

So the guy who is fielding 15 spinegaunts for 90 points (under the impression that they are better against infantry) could instead be fielding 18 termagants for the same price; a unit that possesses both better shooting and increased survivability over the spinegaunts.

enygma7
27-03-2010, 22:38
they only swaped the points around because we already OWNED a bucket load of spines and so they made it so we want termagants instead. Regardless of you're opinion on the book NO ONE in their right mind should argue that the change to spinegaunts was nothing but a money grubbing scheme almost beyond belief

I'm in my right mind and I'd argue it is something other than a money grubbing scheme. Those of us around since 2nd ed will remember the termagant as the standard "gaunt" of the nid race, other versions (fluff and game wise) are variations of the termagant genus. It was only in 4th ed that the spinegaunt became "standard" - I don't think GW anticipated that it would dominate all nid lists for the sole reason that people like their gaunts as cheap as possible since their offensive power is negligable at best. The latest codex has put this right - at the cost of annoying a great many people who chose spinegaunts for their cheapness. I doubt it will raise them much revenue - how many people do you seriously think will go out and replace all their gaunts? Most will proxy, swap the weapons around or simply bite the bullet and pay for spinefists.

Also, on a few other issues: there is only so much value to maths/theory hammer. It is a useful tool but doesn't tell you the whole story. My flyrant is massively more effective than my trygon - the trygon either deep strikes in and draws the enemies firepower for a turn before dying, or it goes on foot in which case it generally survives but only arrives in time to mop up because the enemy move away from it (and a large part of my army is extremely fast and gets there first). The flyrant is in turn 2 and generally causes a mess before getting shot down.

Likewise, the carnifex is a fail on paper vs. the trygon, but this doesn't take into account the trygon is a massive model and will never get a cover save whilst a brood of 2 carnifexes can get a cover save if one of them is screened by a brood of warrior sized models. They also give cover saves to everything behind the area of the brood. I've not tried it yet but I'm seriously considering dropping the trygon for a carnifex brood when I do a slower horde style army.

MasterDecoy
27-03-2010, 22:48
no, They may serve the same battlefield role, but Im investing extra points in the unit to make it more potent.

It would work your way if I had a specific amount of points to spend on the unit and thats it, but thats not how it works. I may want to divert points from other areas, or I may have points left over after Ive included everything that I feel is nessecery in the army so that I can invest them into any of my units to make them better at the job they perform.

As far as Im concerned, a 1 on 1 comparison is better.

daboarder
27-03-2010, 23:03
@enygma7: Yeah I know the termagant is the iconic little nid and I honestly like the return of them on the battlefield. What I don't like was the way spinegaunt's were treated. There are plenty of other option they could have gone with, for example giving them the same point's cost but a different battlefield role. Perhaps something as simple as S3/2 AP4/3, thought AP3 is probably over the top, and kept them the same points but instead they made them completely worthless. infact S2 AP3 and range 12/6 would have its uses and its drawbacks.

ekiander
27-03-2010, 23:20
no, They may serve the same battlefield role, but Im investing extra points in the unit to make it more potent.

It would work your way if I had a specific amount of points to spend on the unit and thats it, but thats not how it works. I may want to divert points from other areas, or I may have points left over after Ive included everything that I feel is nessecery in the army so that I can invest them into any of my units to make them better at the job they perform.

As far as Im concerned, a 1 on 1 comparison is better.

What? I don't understand this logic. Everything is dictated by spending points on specific units. Thats army building. I either spend 150 points on 30 termaganfs or 180 on spinegants. Pointwise in a min/max situation spinefists are useless and taking them makes your army worse. If you like them better that's fine. Let's look at number of points for a wound for both which is just cost/chance to wound.

___T3_T4_T5_T6
SF 16 24 48 48
FB 14 20 30 60

So the only cost effective situation is T6 and FB can still glance AV10. Your not really making them better your just making them a point sink and those extra points would be better spent somewhere else in a pure min/max situation. .

As this is now way off topic I'd just like to point out that this a general theme of the book. Upgrades that cost points but make you worse. MC deathspitters, MC toxin sacs, spinefists, etc.

ekiander
27-03-2010, 23:25
@enygma7: Yeah I know the termagant is the iconic little nid and I honestly like the return of them on the battlefield. What I don't like was the way spinegaunt's were treated. There are plenty of other option they could have gone with, for example giving them the same point's cost but a different battlefield role. Perhaps something as simple as S3/2 AP4/3, thought AP3 is probably over the top, and kept them the same points but instead they made them completely worthless. infact S2 AP3 and range 12/6 would have its uses and its drawbacks.

A 6' rapid fire would have been nice but would have broken warriors and raveners.

Comrade Penguin
27-03-2010, 23:35
Cry me a river, seriously.

Did you expect the book to remain the same? Your upgrades still withstanding? News flash hot-shot, that's what GWS does with their game. I'm sorry that their cheapest termagaunt weapon upgrade isn't the cheapest anymore, and that you have models with spinefists that don't cut it anymore.

Who cares? It sounds to me like you got complacent with unbalanced rules (in nids favor) and now that things have been scaled back your butt hurts.

You also gave away your position by stating certain things give more "bang for your buck" and "not worth the points". Sounds to me that you only care about being competitive. The rules developers push models and don't care about tournament players.

And if you don't play tournaments, what's the issue then? Shouldn't this all be in fun, or can you not play something that isn't number crunched?

Wow way to slam Ulrig, but if it makes you feel like a big man that's cool I guess :rolleyes:

Its very easy to say just get over it, until this happens to your army. For those of us with illegal models (sniperfex) and redundant models (spinegants) it is a very hard thing to get over. Imagine if GW introduced a new gun to the guard or marines, forcing you to rip your models apart. This is even more frustrating when you spent a lot of time converting and painting these minis. I am not asking you to agree with the nid players gripes, but a little sympathy to all those who built their armies under older editions would be nice. I know that if GW does this to another army, forcing you to change all of your models, I won't be taking digs at those players who feel they have been cheated. I now know how chaos marine players felt after their 4th edition codex was released.

enygma7
27-03-2010, 23:42
@enygma7: Yeah I know the termagant is the iconic little nid and I honestly like the return of them on the battlefield. What I don't like was the way spinegaunt's were treated.

Yeah, I get why people are pissed, I think GW made a mistake by not taking that into account. I think the GW staff take a fairly layed back, fluff based approach to gaming and thought people could just shell out the extra point for existing spine gaunts and it wouldn't be a biggy.

I'm just glad I managed to dodge that particular bullet -I wanted to take spinefists for the same reasons everyone else did but ended up taking fleshborers simply because I hated the spinefist model and loved the classic gaunt look. My crushing claws carnifex wasn't so lucky though :(

I've generally found the best way to "future proof" your army is to take a fluffy force and not base everything around what is currently the most optimal unit or build - although of course this won't suite some tourniment style players.

Fixer
28-03-2010, 00:09
I know that if GW does this to another army, forcing you to change all of your models, I won't be taking digs at those players who feel they have been cheated. I now know how chaos marine players felt after their 4th edition codex was released.

Of course this did actually happen to my Salamanders at 5th edition. I used to have cleanse and purify, now I have a lot of spare special weapons troopers. Also large command squads to accompany my chaplain and captain respectively (basically a bp/ccw or bolter for the same price, but ld 9 all over and a cheaper second special weapon) who ended up in the foam tomb and lastly my Terminator Chaplain with Thunderhammer/Crozius. For my Custom marine army I had a bike librarian whos storm shield is now entirely decorative.

This is before you throw out things which got nerfed to bloody oblivion. Most jarring of all was my poor (specially converted) space marine Captain lost two attacks, his mastercrafted hammer and the ability to take eternal warrior. Turning him from a Monsterous creature murderer into target practise.

However, I didn't lose everything. Additionally having stuck to theme everything I used before for fluff reasons (flamer, hammer, melta) got boosted.

Tyranids really got the short end of the stick though. Nearly everything that was worth taking before is now overpriced, useless or redundant with the exception of genestealers and Zoanthropes.

Everything else that you would have seen in a 4th edition army that was worth taking before is now collecting dust on shelves and for a lot of those players you're looking at having to tear off and replace a lot of plastic arms or effectively buy an entire new army.

ekiander
28-03-2010, 00:24
I've generally found the best way to "future proof" your army is to take a fluffy force and not base everything around what is currently the most optimal unit or build - although of course this won't suite some tourniment style players.

Or use magnets.

Ulrig
28-03-2010, 00:28
Or use magnets.
To add to the pain, all my over-priced fex models are magnetized fully. Does not matter what I put on them...they still cost too much

magnetize gaunts??? I think I would slit my wrist listening to "party in the USA" before doing that

Max Jet
28-03-2010, 00:32
I've generally found the best way to "future proof" your army is to take a fluffy force and not base everything around what is currently the most optimal unit or build - although of course this won't suite some tourniment style players.

Before 5th edition everyone considered lot's of Spinegaunts fluffy.

ehlijen
28-03-2010, 00:35
Um...new book....new codex I expected some improvements.

And that's the problem. Just because a book is new does not automatically entitle it to being better.

The point of new books is to adapt the nids to the new rules environment and bring it in line with the power of newer codices, no to add arbitrary improvements.

On your notes:

Carnifeces sitll have a point over Trygons: They can ID T4 characters in combat (and are thus far mare threatening to the likes of Vulkan) and they have access to low AP or High S shooting weapons. Even on monstrous creatures raw strenght is a good thing and the carny beats the Trygon by miles in that.

Hive tyrant: This isn't even in the same category as the Trygon. He does things differently and has access to many things a Trygon can never do (psychic powers, ID blades, lash whips, higher WS and PE...)

Stealers: Stealers are still scary. The new outflanking ability combined with fleet required that they be easier to kill as the opponent would get less shooting phases to stop them. They can't go toe to toe with unharmed line units, but they can still pierce weak points created by nid shooting and pinning weapons (pinning weapons are the new frags, people) without breaking a sweat.

New gaunts: There is no problem here. The difference in points cost is not big and against their primary intended target (core infantry) spinefsts are actually a minor improvement and thus needed a points cost. Spinegaunts still work and there is nothing wrong with taking them.

Lictors: They have a decent shooting attack now and super deepstrike. No they can't autokill any support unit on the turn they arrive anymore, and that is a good thing. With good use of cover, they can still disrupt the enemy very effectively.

Synapse: Wait, the fact that the signature rule of the nids finally does something bad when it is neglected is a bad thing? Why?

TheShadowCow
28-03-2010, 00:50
Genestealers (with Toxin Sacks) are still absolute beasts in melee. Sure, charging an opponent in cover is a problem... but 1) I think it's healthy that some problems require a slightly more complex solution and 2) those solutions *are* there (assault them with something else first? assault them with something that has frags at the same time as the Genestealers?).

azimaith
28-03-2010, 01:32
And that's the problem. Just because a book is new does not automatically entitle it to being better.

It entitles to being changed to be more fitting and balanced in the new edition. Nerfing a codex regardless of the edition is not any more sensible as buffing it "just because."



The point of new books is to adapt the nids to the new rules environment and bring it in line with the power of newer codices, no to add arbitrary improvements.

That doesn't mean you can disregard the way it used to work. Can you imagine what would happen if the new edition changed the armor save system so they removed Tactical space marines from their codex and replaced them with "Space Guard." You can adapt something without tearing out its heart and soul.



On your notes:

Carnifeces sitll have a point over Trygons: They can ID T4 characters in combat (and are thus far mare threatening to the likes of Vulkan) and they have access to low AP or High S shooting weapons. Even on monstrous creatures raw strenght is a good thing and the carny beats the Trygon by miles in that.

The carnifex however comes out by being slower, with less attacks, and less wounds. The option to pay more for more guns doesn't equate to it being better, can you imagine if you increased the cost of a guardsmen to 10 points because "they have the option to take meltaguns" then charged you for the meltaguns? The carnifex cost nearly the same and have very few practical benefits over the Trygon and that is why people are disappointed. Carnifex are just flat overpriced for what they can do and thus the Trygon is a better choice for nearly every job for its price. A carnifex like a monorail system, really good at doing one or two things (driving along the track and then driving the other way) while the Trygon is the automobile. Maybe it can't drive that track as well, but it can go almost anywhere.



Hive tyrant: This isn't even in the same category as the Trygon. He does things differently and has access to many things a Trygon can never do (psychic powers, ID blades, lash whips, higher WS and PE...)

You're right, the Hive Tyrant isn't even similar to the Trygon. The trygon is a fighting unit, the Hive Tyrant is a worse fighting unit with better support abilities. That doesn't make it costed correctly.



Stealers: Stealers are still scary. The new outflanking ability combined with fleet required that they be easier to kill as the opponent would get less shooting phases to stop them. They can't go toe to toe with unharmed line units, but they can still pierce weak points created by nid shooting and pinning weapons (pinning weapons are the new frags, people) without breaking a sweat.

Genestealers are good as they are now and they were pretty good before. I've got no complaints about them besides the inability to buy Frag grenades and even then its penalty to genestealers tends to be overblown by people.



New gaunts: There is no problem here. The difference in points cost is not big and against their primary intended target (core infantry) spinefsts are actually a minor improvement and thus needed a points cost. Spinegaunts still work and there is nothing wrong with taking them.

Spinegaunts were bad fighters before much less now. Termagants were the current spineguant cost when they had fleet, and a bolt pistol with Re-rolls to wound. A fleeting re-roll wound bolt pistol>A non-fleeting-Twin-Linked Laspistol. Now you lose out on a point of strength, the re-roll to wound, and fleet. The problem with gaunts is even more exacerbated by Synapse being a giant penalty.



Lictors: They have a decent shooting attack now and super deepstrike. No they can't autokill any support unit on the turn they arrive anymore, and that is a good thing. With good use of cover, they can still disrupt the enemy very effectively.

Lictors never "autokilled" a support unit before, much less now. Their shooting attack is a joke for their price and they still don't do their job of seriously disrupting anything. They're like giving away points. This is made even worse by their reduced synapse problems and inferior pheromone trail rules.



Synapse: Wait, the fact that the signature rule of the nids finally does something bad when it is neglected is a bad thing? Why?
It did something when it was neglected before. Do you think having your units falling back toward your synapse creatures because they start the turn out of 12" was a good thing?

The only difference between old synapse and new synapse is that you now fall back off the table edge (worse), you either stand around or charge (meaning you have less ability to extert synapse over them later, almost everyone has lowered leadership (which means you fail IB tests more often) and they didn't fix no retreat, which means your choice is between being run down in combat or taking 2x as many wounds.

Synapse is just a giant penalty for playing tyranids, so much so that they have artifically reduced Tyranid leadership scores beyond what a similar model would cost. At least before it was a special rule you used to make your army maximally effective, now its a special rule you use because if you don't you just get destroyed even worse. Its like asking someone if they want to get shot in the right leg or the left leg, you still get shot but "Hey you get a choice which leg!"

Comrade Penguin
28-03-2010, 01:39
On your notes:

Carnifeces sitll have a point over Trygons: They can ID T4 characters in combat (and are thus far mare threatening to the likes of Vulkan) and they have access to low AP or High S shooting weapons. Even on monstrous creatures raw strenght is a good thing and the carny beats the Trygon by miles in that.

Hive tyrant: This isn't even in the same category as the Trygon. He does things differently and has access to many things a Trygon can never do (psychic powers, ID blades, lash whips, higher WS and PE...)

Stealers: Stealers are still scary. The new outflanking ability combined with fleet required that they be easier to kill as the opponent would get less shooting phases to stop them. They can't go toe to toe with unharmed line units, but they can still pierce weak points created by nid shooting and pinning weapons (pinning weapons are the new frags, people) without breaking a sweat.

New gaunts: There is no problem here. The difference in points cost is not big and against their primary intended target (core infantry) spinefsts are actually a minor improvement and thus needed a points cost. Spinegaunts still work and there is nothing wrong with taking them.

Lictors: They have a decent shooting attack now and super deepstrike. No they can't autokill any support unit on the turn they arrive anymore, and that is a good thing. With good use of cover, they can still disrupt the enemy very effectively.

Synapse: Wait, the fact that the signature rule of the nids finally does something bad when it is neglected is a bad thing? Why?

Carni: Yes he can instagib characters, if he gets into combat. And If he doesn't get slaughtered first by the character's retinue or the character himself. And if he gets past that character's 4+/3+ invuln save. Honestly if your opponent lets his character get into a one on one match with an unwounded carni than he has made a huge blunder, and personally I do not like relying on the sheer noobness of my opponent when playing my army.

Tyrant: Agreed, he may be a little too expensive but proxysm is awesome. It also happens to be his only useful psychic power outside of extremely circumstantial instances. And these powers are often negated by psychic hoods and other psychic defense mechanisms. A 2+ armor save also would not be OTT for his points cost, considering I am constantly facing 2+/3++ enemy CC squads.

Stealers: They can't go toe to toe with the enemy's line infantry.. and that is a good thing how? The stealers can't shoot and fall apart even under regular bolter/lasgun fire. So when they do get to combat I think it is reasonable for me to expect my super close combat monsters to be able to take out line infantry.. but that may be just me.

Spinegants: These guys are horrible at shooting and usually won't kill anything of value. The humble guardsmen can outrange and destroy a majority of the squad before they get into shooting range and the ork boy will shrug off most of those str 3 hits. You take these guys for their numbers, and an extra point for the weapon conflicts with their role as a cheap tarpit/objective grabber. Not to mention the fact that tervigons can't produce them, resulting in a lot of shelved spinegants.

Lictors: Honestly you could argue with all of my other objections, but I don't see how anyone who has played a single game of 40k could consider this a good unit. Two str 6 no ap rending shots fired by a bs 3 model a good shooting weapon? You're kidding me right? Not to mention that the lictor has to be within 6 inches to do this. He will at best shake an enemy vehicle or kill a guardsman and then get wiped off the table. He doesn't have the super stealth of yesteryear and will be pounded in CC by any enemy infantry above a guardsman. To me this guy ranks just above the pyrovore in pure suck.

Synapse: Didn't change much and I am fine with it. I think instinctive behavior is awesomely fluffy and I am glad it was included. I just wish tyranids would still fall back to the nearest synapse creature, as their low LD means that anything who takes a wound outside of synapse would likely be falling off the board.

Balerion
28-03-2010, 04:54
no, They may serve the same battlefield role, but Im investing extra points in the unit to make it more potent.

It would work your way if I had a specific amount of points to spend on the unit and thats it, but thats not how it works. I may want to divert points from other areas, or I may have points left over after Ive included everything that I feel is nessecery in the army so that I can invest them into any of my units to make them better at the job they perform.

As far as Im concerned, a 1 on 1 comparison is better.
You're missing the point, which is that no matter how many points you choose to spend on your spinegaunts, that amount would be better spent on equal points worth of termagants, and you lose NOTHING by making that conversion. More models, more firepower, same points cost, function exactly like the spinegaunts would (only better!).

big squig
28-03-2010, 06:01
I still have yet to see a single redeeming factor. A complete a total failure in my book. So I vote terrible.

Comrade Penguin
28-03-2010, 06:57
I still have yet to see a single redeeming factor. A complete a total failure in my book. So I vote terrible.

I don't know if I would go that far. We did get a few new a pretty cool units. The trygon for one is awesome and looks gorgeous, while hormagants have not only become effective but preferable to normal gants. Gargoyles are pretty good too, and I am loving the new tyranid prime. Of course we also got a bunch of junk and some horribly written rules. The dex is certainly a mixed bag.

ShadowDeth
28-03-2010, 06:59
Wow way to slam Ulrig, but if it makes you feel like a big man that's cool I guess :rolleyes:

Its very easy to say just get over it, until this happens to your army. For those of us with illegal models (sniperfex) and redundant models (spinegants) it is a very hard thing to get over. Imagine if GW introduced a new gun to the guard or marines, forcing you to rip your models apart. This is even more frustrating when you spent a lot of time converting and painting these minis. I am not asking you to agree with the nid players gripes, but a little sympathy to all those who built their armies under older editions would be nice. I know that if GW does this to another army, forcing you to change all of your models, I won't be taking digs at those players who feel they have been cheated. I now know how chaos marine players felt after their 4th edition codex was released.

I play Chaos, the main codex, Slaanesh, Lost And The Damned, 13th Company, Dark Eldar. I definitely know what this feels like, and I still say "get over it".

I hold no sympathy for Nid players. Past codex imbalances lead people to model their figures for power, and now those imbalances have been voided. A shooting Carnifex? Did you all think that ride would never end? Shall we buy stock in Enron while we're at it? Did you all think that GWS would never do what they have been doing to books for a decade : to your book?

Look, this is a very cyclic game ; and unless you're totally green to how things are done you have no excuse to complain about load-out changes. I've been told my (80+) Chaos marines all need Bolt Pistols and CC weapons, my Daemon Prince upgrades don't work anymore (Wah Wah my modeling efforts were all for nought!), my defilers now need two CC weapon additions (previous loadouts were still playable - yet unoptimal), my 45 Fenrisian hounds don't exist between most of 5th and the SW release, my 200+ mutants don't have an entry anymore and it goes on.

I've simply asked myself, were these things I could have foresaw? Did I enjoy modeling the defunct units and playing them while they could be 'officially' supported?

And to be honest, I had a lot of fun stripping down my Daemon Prince, removing his Dark Blade, adding wings (Daemonic Speed prior to the 2007 codex) and remodeling him - and now his currently legal twin.

If things like this get you down, you're probably in the wrong game. The initial vibe I got from the poster was that he doesn't even enjoy this game anymore.

Ulrig
28-03-2010, 07:32
And that's the problem. Just because a book is new does not automatically entitle it to being better.

The point of new books is to adapt the nids to the new rules environment and bring it in line with the power of newer codices, no to add arbitrary improvements.

So your are saying here....that nothing needed improved on? A few minor tweaks, something to deal with Mech, and a few new plastic models and ranges is all that was needed. Instead we got a flaming brown sack of dog poo labeled as "free heat"

On your notes:


Carnifeces sitll have a point over Trygons: They can ID T4 characters in combat (and are thus far mare threatening to the likes of Vulkan) and they have access to low AP or High S shooting weapons. Even on monstrous creatures raw strenght is a good thing and the carny beats the Trygon by miles in that.

Them having ACCESS to better weapons does not justify the base points cost. Because to get those better weapons you have to PAY MORE for them in points cost.



Hive tyrant: This isn't even in the same category as the Trygon. He does things differently and has access to many things a Trygon can never do (psychic powers, ID blades, lash whips, higher WS and PE...)

Still a multiple wound MC that acts as a HQ. So yeah....I do not think I am pushing it when I relate them to each other. Still...it stands that the hive tyrant is bloated with crap it does not always need for a increased point cost.



Stealers: Stealers are still scary. The new outflanking ability combined with fleet required that they be easier to kill as the opponent would get less shooting phases to stop them. They can't go toe to toe with unharmed line units, but they can still pierce weak points created by nid shooting and pinning weapons (pinning weapons are the new frags, people) without breaking a sweat.

Again they are supposed to be feared to insanity in CC......not staple trash horde mob that is slightly better in CC. The Ymgarl genestealers are not what we are talking about but are good but at a high point cost....and they are a little random for my taste.



New gaunts: There is no problem here. The difference in points cost is not big and against their primary intended target (core infantry) spinefsts are actually a minor improvement and thus needed a points cost. Spinegaunts still work and there is nothing wrong with taking them.

There is something wrong with taking spines when this is a tarpit issue and that extra point is a serious issue in relation to the other options.



Lictors: They have a decent shooting attack now and super deepstrike. No they can't autokill any support unit on the turn they arrive anymore, and that is a good thing. With good use of cover, they can still disrupt the enemy very effectively.

Is this some sick joke..."decent shooting attack". Just wow.....wow....I cannot believe your subconscious let your fingers type what you did about lictors.



Synapse: Wait, the fact that the signature rule of the nids finally does something bad when it is neglected is a bad thing? Why?
it went from tolerable to slightly over-bearing.

Putty
28-03-2010, 07:43
To put forth an objective reflection of the new codex:

The Good Stuff

1) It has a lot of cool stuff (some of the new stuff is cool too, like the Trygon and Mycetic Spore.)
2) Individually the units are generally okay.
3) A lot of positive improvements to old units.

The Meh Stuff

1) Some abilites that are unique to the race, disappeared (Living Ammo, ultra customisable units)
2) Some units got a lot worst (Uh Lictors, I LoL-ed at you)
3) Although individually many of the units are okay, the army when put together, doesn't function "correctly." If you guys are familiar with Warriors in Chaos in Fantasy, it is the same issue.
4) Several stuff got over-costed for no good reason. (then again we know the reason, it was an executive decision)
5) Psykic powers... many are really the meh. The range for Shadow of the Warp should be a damn lot further.

Overall, the codex has improved but also de-proved (if there is such a word :p) and thus kinda went no-where. Zoanthropes and Tervigon kinda saved this codex, without them (and the SIGNIFICANT improvements to the Zoanthropes) the codex would have been really ****.

Ulrig
28-03-2010, 07:53
I play Chaos, the main codex, Slaanesh, Lost And The Damned, 13th Company, Dark Eldar. I definitely know what this feels like, and I still say "get over it".

I hold no sympathy for Nid players. Past codex imbalances lead people to model their figures for power, and now those imbalances have been voided. A shooting Carnifex? Did you all think that ride would never end? Shall we buy stock in Enron while we're at it? Did you all think that GWS would never do what they have been doing to books for a decade : to your book?

Look, this is a very cyclic game ; and unless you're totally green to how things are done you have no excuse to complain about load-out changes. I've been told my (80+) Chaos marines all need Bolt Pistols and CC weapons, my Daemon Prince upgrades don't work anymore (Wah Wah my modeling efforts were all for nought!), my defilers now need two CC weapon additions (previous loadouts were still playable - yet unoptimal), my 45 Fenrisian hounds don't exist between most of 5th and the SW release, my 200+ mutants don't have an entry anymore and it goes on.

I've simply asked myself, were these things I could have foresaw? Did I enjoy modeling the defunct units and playing them while they could be 'officially' supported?

And to be honest, I had a lot of fun stripping down my Daemon Prince, removing his Dark Blade, adding wings (Daemonic Speed prior to the 2007 codex) and remodeling him - and now his currently legal twin.

If things like this get you down, you're probably in the wrong game. The initial vibe I got from the poster was that he doesn't even enjoy this game anymore.

What imbalances? Honestly let me know what was so Imbalanced that justified the codex version of Deliverance by cruddace? I honestly want to know what you think was so broken with 4th edition codex it made it ok to screw with the new codex for the next few to several years. Was it nidzilla? I never once even put a nidzilla army down on paper.

You talk about how you enjoyed striping down your old models. After nearly finishing a LARGE nid army....I promise you I will not get the same enjoyment of redoing and re-buying nearly the whole army. Not sure who would.

I have loved this game since 1997. I have had nids since then. I love playing it. All I ask is not to be screwed over by mindless un-justified changes. Again...this is all an INTERNAL balance issue.

I love how there is a crap load of people out there who just loved seeing nids get screwed over because nidzilla is dead. The guy who runs my local gaming store has said similar, really pisses me off. I never played nidzilla.....even if you were in the right about nidzilla how is this justified towards all types of nid players?

Unlike shadow deth
I feel sorry for anybody that gets screwed over by any army changes or lack there of. Necrons and DE are WAY past due. Chaos marines got hosed. Nids are now the new army to get hosed. Players of these armies....like me have put lots of money and time in their armies and deserve better. Its not like editions or codexes come out in anything close to a timely manner. This crap book is what we will have to deal with for years.

Lazarus15
28-03-2010, 08:44
TH/SS terminators in a land raider will statistically wipe this out in one turn and always get the charge and thats with 0 shooting before hand.

In the context of the army, I challenge that, that unit would make it to that brood of carnifex's without there being a buffer unit of some sort and your anti-tank units in the way, in addition the SL being right there. Against Marnius Calgar and a mixed squad of ten termies on foot, they were charged by 3 carnifex's, 1 squad of genestealers and the SL. One fex died, while in return they wiped out the bunch.

We both have a 2/3 chance of getting a favorable result on the hit rolls. We both wound on two's. I have half and again the attacks and almost triple the wounds. You have a 3+ invul save but 1/3-1/2 the wounds if coming out of a land raider, with a character. So even though that this scenario would likely never happen, we strike simo, so where are you getting the idea that that unit will wipe out the carnifex's? I am going to presume you are making the assumption, that you'll make a beast of a roll when it comes to invuls.

azimaith
28-03-2010, 09:48
Actually...
Carnifex will re-roll ones, lets say your lucky with the fexes and manage to make three sixes for your crushing claws giving you an astonishing *eight* attacks each. (4+3+1).

Your to hit roll is 4+ which means you get around 24 attacks with 4 re-rolls thus 2 additional hits. So 14 hits. From there you have a little more than .84 chance to wound, so that's around 2 failed wounds, thus 12 wounding hits. Statistically even with storm shields that's three terminators who get mushed to tiny bits.

Since they carnifex hit at init 1 the termies strike at the same time (and considering 3 claw/talon carnifex are 555 points, an equal amount (Land Raider, EA, Multi-Melta, 6 terminators+sarge.) Would do something like... 21 power fist attacks, hit with 66% (since your capped at WS3)13.86 hits, 11.64 wounds with no saves allowed.

So yes, theoretically, even if you charged, an equal points of Assault Termintors in a land raider would wipe the floor with you while suffering three dead terminators. A 4 man unit of terminators is still very effective. If they charged you then the carnifex are even worse off.

In any case, the chance of being interrupted trying to charge your slow moving carnifex with an assault move allowing raider is very slim chance.


Honestly the chance of defeating 10 SS termies+calgar with the swarmlord, genestealers, and carnifex is pretty low on its own.
Lets say every attack you had coming at them was a power weapon (superior to rending), forced re-rolled invulns(as per the swarmlord), hit on 3s(as per SL and GS) and Wounded on 2s(As per fex/SL). This would give them the biggest possible advantages you could manage, far in excess of what you had.
14 wounds would take around 43 attacks. Now remember, thats 43 attacks if absolutely everyone was the swarmlord. That's 43 attacks with 3's to hit, 2's to wound' and re-rolls of successful invulnerable saves.

Lets say we did something a little more realistic to your situation. First, remember you are charging anywhere from 10-20 genestealers in+the swarmlord+3 carnifex with CC, thats 1115 points vs 665.
The swarmlord kills 1.51, the carnifex deal 3.4, and the 20 genestealers deal 6.7.
That's 11.61 wounds, in other words you were lucky and you were charging with nearly twice their points worth. Oh, and the number of wounds they do back? Well assuming they decide to go after the targets they can hurt most to try and win combat..
About 8 are dead from the charge leaving Calgar and a pair of termies to fight they'd drop a fex and wound another.

So I think we've proven a couple of things.

1: That 1115 points of tyranid close combat monstrosities charging 665 points of marine close combat monstrosities can neatly win and almost wipe out said squad on the charge. Surprise surprise.

2: The carnifex, in either case, are the weak link giving away the most number of wounds to enemy attacks and dealing less wounds the half priced genestealers and about double the half priced swarmlord.

3: That the carnifex alone would be totally unable to handle their cost in Shield Termies (no one really can.)

4: That if said termies were coming out of a land raider to assault said carnifex with equal points value they would statistically mulch them in one turn while suffering a few wounds.

5: That if we take a more realistic number of extra attacks, say +6 from crushing claws vs +9 the carnifex drop from dealing they drop considerably (about half a wound), and even more so if they are charged by the model with superior movement.


Just as a note, its typically unwise to try to show how good a unit is by putting it against a unit half its cost.

TheShadowCow
28-03-2010, 11:28
Compared to the Trygon, I think the Carnifex is about right at 40 points less (base).

It loses 2 WS, 2I, 2W, 2A and 2Ld. It gains +2I on the charge (mediocre, not bad combined with Adrenals) and +3S. It's *almost* as fast (Run vs Fleet), and a little over half the size (you can actually hide a Carnifex).

The key issue with the Trygon is that it's a generalist. Do you use your lightning or Fleet? Do you Fleet it alongside your swarm or do you DS it and hope it doesn't go nuts wanting to Feed?

Really, both excel when they are used to support other units. On their own, they are overwhelmed and/or shot to pieces. It then becomes a question of "what sort of support do I want?". The edges the Carnifex has over the Trygon are S9/10 on the charge allowing you to crush armour/walkers/multi-wound (non-Daemon) models and a 40 point saving, which is what, another 8 Termagants? Another Warrior with Boneswords?

The edges the Trygon has are that it has a large charge range (Fleet), extra attacks, extra WS/I and some Pulse Rifles stuck to its body. They are obviously going to do different things well. I don't see why we're all so drawn to rate one against the other to the point where "A is pointless because of B".

Souleater
28-03-2010, 11:38
A shooting Carnifex? Did you all think that ride would never end?

Given that Carnifexes have been some of my most effective shooting platforms since Second Edition...yes.

Fixer
28-03-2010, 12:14
Given that Carnifexes have been some of my most effective shooting platforms since Second Edition...yes.

Arguably the best use of the Carnifex is still shooty, using brainleech worms.

It's supposedly intended role as a VC caddy is now a dead option. For it's other purpose (close combat murdering of things) it's just blown completely out of the water by the Trygon.

+2 attacks, +2 wounds, +3 Initiative, +1 Ld and Fleet? The only drawback is the strength, and this is only going to matter against Land Raiders or the occasional Wraithlord.

Since a Carnifex with weapons upgrades only comes in at 10 points cheaper than a base Trygon, the fact that Tyrgon has +50% survivability and presents so much more of a threat has lead to the carni becoming a dead choice.

In fact the only ones I have seen played recently are those from the old Nidzilla lists where the Dakkafex is now a heavy support Brainleech fex. People that used a few Carnifex to support their army with VCs or STCs have now ditched them. Myself included after my two venom cannon equipped Carnifex performed so badly in their first 3 outings after the new codex hit.

Valtiel
28-03-2010, 12:22
Given that Carnifexes have been some of my most effective shooting platforms since Second Edition...yes.

And Shadowdeth, probably the most effective option for the Carnifex is STILL the one with 2x twin-linked devourer. It just got 80 points more expensive. Otherwise the other shooting got worse, Deathspitters are useless, Stranglethorn Cannon is ok'ish and Venom Cannon is a joke.

EDIT: Sorry, got the wrong name!

Putty
28-03-2010, 12:36
And Shadowdeth, probably the most effective option for the Carnifex is STILL the one with 2x twin-linked devourer. It just got 80 points more expensive. Otherwise the other shooting got worse, Deathspitters are useless, Stranglethorn Cannon is ok'ish and Venom Cannon is a joke.

EDIT: Sorry, got the wrong name!

Deathspitters only work when you attach a Tyranid Prime to a unit of Warriors that has them

Other than that yeah, they are quite pointless.

BS 4. It a hell of a drug.

Dreachon
28-03-2010, 12:49
To make the problem een worse, the deathspitter does not gain any advantage except twin-linked when you take them on the fex, the devourers on the other way gain a huge boost as both still cost the same points.

MasterDecoy
28-03-2010, 13:37
You're missing the point, which is that no matter how many points you choose to spend on your spinegaunts, that amount would be better spent on equal points worth of termagants, and you lose NOTHING by making that conversion. More models, more firepower, same points cost, function exactly like the spinegaunts would (only better!).

sorry to say dude, I dont know a single person who when they are writing a list goes "Im going to spend 150 points on this unit of gaunts and not a point more" rather than "I want 2 units of 20 gaunts, and I want to give them X, Y and Z"

Once the points have been tallyed and they are at, or within 10 points limit (or over) they will start tweeking their list, an upgrade here, lose that unit there, a few less guys here.

azimaith
28-03-2010, 14:04
Um, if I made a list with spinegaunts, decided I wanted to use them for shooting, or tarpitting, I'd go back and see what was cheaper, IE termagants, and pick those. Just because people don't go in expected to spend X amount of points doesn't mean they don't understand efficiency.

FerociousBeast
28-03-2010, 16:04
I hate the fact that almost every single unit has its own unit special rules. Horde lists always take longer to play, and when every unit has its own unique special rule to be remembered and often rolled for, that just makes the gameplay that much longer.

A lot of it just isn't necessary. For example, the Carnifex. He gets +2 I on the charge. Okay, why? Why not simplify him a little bit and give him a base I2 and Furious Charge? Or hell, just leave him the way he is. I3 isn't going to help him hit anything first (or simultaneously) that he needs to hit first. Anything that's expert at CC is going to be at least I4, and the Carnifex is going to be hitting with powerfists and thunderhammers anyway. If the idea is to let him hit before PF and TH, just give him FC. So it's a pointless special rule. There are lots of them in there, and they're just bad ideas for the most part. They slow the game down or over-complicate things.

Comrade Penguin
28-03-2010, 16:16
I play Chaos, the main codex, Slaanesh, Lost And The Damned, 13th Company, Dark Eldar. I definitely know what this feels like, and I still say "get over it".

I hold no sympathy for Nid players. Past codex imbalances lead people to model their figures for power, and now those imbalances have been voided. A shooting Carnifex? Did you all think that ride would never end? Shall we buy stock in Enron while we're at it? Did you all think that GWS would never do what they have been doing to books for a decade : to your book?

Look, this is a very cyclic game ; and unless you're totally green to how things are done you have no excuse to complain about load-out changes. I've been told my (80+) Chaos marines all need Bolt Pistols and CC weapons, my Daemon Prince upgrades don't work anymore (Wah Wah my modeling efforts were all for nought!), my defilers now need two CC weapon additions (previous loadouts were still playable - yet unoptimal), my 45 Fenrisian hounds don't exist between most of 5th and the SW release, my 200+ mutants don't have an entry anymore and it goes on.

I've simply asked myself, were these things I could have foresaw? Did I enjoy modeling the defunct units and playing them while they could be 'officially' supported?

And to be honest, I had a lot of fun stripping down my Daemon Prince, removing his Dark Blade, adding wings (Daemonic Speed prior to the 2007 codex) and remodeling him - and now his currently legal twin.

If things like this get you down, you're probably in the wrong game. The initial vibe I got from the poster was that he doesn't even enjoy this game anymore.

You didn't have to rip the arms off of your chaos, because they still come with boltguns. And yes having to rip up your other models sucks. Just like it sucked for Fixer to have to change up his converted Salamanders. I don't have to like every aspect of the game to play it, and GW forcing people to buy new models or tear up old ones to field a competitive force is one aspect that I hate. Having to replace my fexs with trygons is annoying, especially considering I would have bought the new kits anyway. They could have made fexs more effective, then we could have had a harder decision when choosing what we want for our heavies. Instead it is a no brainer to take the tyrgon.

And shooting fexs have been around since at least I started playing, which was under third edition. They have traditionally been an anti-tank and infantry staple in many nid armies since this edition, now they are outperformed by hiveguard/zoans/biovores in every way. They only thing that was unbalanced about the old nid codex was points cost of the fex, nothing else in that codex was remotely broken. So GW, rather than fixing the cost of fex to an acceptable level, decided to nerf it to oblivion. Kind of a kneejerk reaction to a problem that could been fixed with a reasonable points adjustment.

Ventus
28-03-2010, 17:17
I agree with Comrade Penguin. I would have bought many of the new kits anyways, but now I have restricted myself to gargoyles, hiveguard and maybe raveners later.

Another problem is that making the new choices the most awesome or interesting (not all for example Zoeys and hormagaunts) where there is no model - tervigon, tyrannofex, tyranid prime, parasite, spore pod, swords for swarmlord and warriors, etc, on top of the need to alter so many old models and losing biomorphs where there were parts available is frustrating.

The tervigon is an interesting unit but I feel that the tyrannofex shouldn't exist and that any role that the tyrannofex plays could have been a role for the carnifex (anti-armour/infantry shooting or CC) as it used to be and could have been improved with a slight adjustment to the venom cannon. Yes the carnifex need to go up a bit in points and devourers up a bit as well but I can't believe that any playtesting by people that played nids wouldn't come back with comments that the carnifex was screwed up should be fixed. Just blatant "buy the trygon because you have too". And that's why I don't plan to now.

2099
28-03-2010, 17:17
It's very a boring book, and nearly killed my love for the game.
So, I voted bad.
The vibe of the book, feels more like Codex: Target Practice.
Mr. Chambers, you are missed!

Lazarus15
28-03-2010, 17:24
Actually...
Just as a note, its typically unwise to try to show how good a unit is by putting it against a unit half its cost.


You are forgetting a few key things.

1) Chance with margin of error. Having a 2/3 chance of getting a favorable result is still just that. I am not going to turn this in to a stat's thread.

2) I distinctly remember saying the phrase, "in the context of the army." So putting a unit solely against another unit is naive in my opinion. We don't fight in the vacuum of space (at least not in this game ;) ). Taking this into account, in the above 2v2 game it was a mix of 6 storm shields, 4 lightning claws and the man. I casted paroxysm on them from the swarmlord and preferred enemy on the swarmlord. He killed calgar, the stealers killed the claws, and the carnifex's killed the hammers, losing one in return. Again. "IN THE CONTEXT of the army." I am not going to want to fight a fair fight. The only good fight is the one in my favor that I win. We use the same principle in the military. 3:1 odds to achieve a crushing victory.

3) I am not sure how people run their armies, but History has proven in real world, that skirmishers or screening units are the key to army survival. Always been that way with the Tyranids. Probably not going to change. If you run 3 Fex's in front of a raider, you deserved to be charged. With a 9-10" movement, taking the median of the dice, that is not all that slow. It is not the 20" charge range of the land raider and friends, but to deem it slow is silly.

*The other land raider already ate it and the contents of vulkan and his little band of brothers devoured to hormagaunts with adrenals and toxin sacs.

Cartographer
28-03-2010, 17:48
New gaunts: There is no problem here. The difference in points cost is not big and against their primary intended target (core infantry) spinefsts are actually a minor improvement and thus needed a points cost. Spinegaunts still work and there is nothing wrong with taking them.

I'm sorry ehlijen, I usually find myself agreeing with your posts but here I'm afraid you're just wrong and demonstrably so.
In a straight 1 to 1 comparison, the spinegaunt is better than the standard gaunt vs T3 and T6 (12.5% and 50% better respectively), equal vs T4 and worse vs T5 and T7 (25% and 100% worse respectively). However 1 to 1 does not take into account the points hike; at equal points (say 18 gaunts vs 15 spinegaunts) then the spinegaunts are worse vs T3, T4, T5 and T7 (by 6.25%, 16.66%, 37.5% and 100% respectively). They only come out on top vs T6 (by 25%).

This isn't to say it's not an upgrade, it's a marginal one and not worth 1 point per model.



Synapse: Wait, the fact that the signature rule of the nids finally does something bad when it is neglected is a bad thing? Why?

If fearless were actually beneficial to the tyranids rather than being a painful reminder of the current flaws (IMO) in the combat system then you'd have a point. If it didn't fly in the face of the background (tyranid fleets exerting their influence across a system as soon as they enter it, billions of miles of deep space, but reduced to 60 feet or so on the tabletop???). If there were any indication it was included for a purpose other than: "they had it that way beforehand". If other armies didn't already have similar effects for free without the penalties (I'm looking at orks and marines as the biggest culprits here...), the list goes on as to why it's a bad thing.

Thud
28-03-2010, 19:09
I'm of the same opinion regarding the 'Nid codex now as when it came out.

It's a brilliant book. All the units, except the Pyrovore obviously, are good, but not OP, it has several viable competitive builds and there are relatively few RAI/RAW issues.

Balerion
28-03-2010, 21:09
sorry to say dude, I dont know a single person who when they are writing a list goes "Im going to spend 150 points on this unit of gaunts and not a point more" rather than "I want 2 units of 20 gaunts, and I want to give them X, Y and Z"

Once the points have been tallyed and they are at, or within 10 points limit (or over) they will start tweeking their list, an upgrade here, lose that unit there, a few less guys here.
Again, none of this changes the fact that Termagants are demonstrably the better unit, point-for-point, so anyone who thinks, "I want 2 units of 20 Spinegaunts" should stop and realize that they could get more Termagants for the same cost, who would perform better than the Spinegaunts in the same role.

Flat-out, there is no strategic reason to use spinegaunts instead of termagants. Someone may use them out of personal preference, or limited model ownership, but anyone who tries to claim that they are the better choice, in any way, is wrong.

MasterDecoy
28-03-2010, 21:48
Again, none of this changes the fact that Termagants are demonstrably the better unit, point-for-point, so anyone who thinks, "I want 2 units of 20 Spinegaunts" should stop and realize that they could get more Termagants for the same cost, who would perform better than the Spinegaunts in the same role.

Flat-out, there is no strategic reason to use spinegaunts instead of termagants. Someone may use them out of personal preference, or limited model ownership, but anyone who tries to claim that they are the better choice, in any way, is wrong.

You seem to have mistakenly read somewhere that I think that the spinegaunts are better than fleshgaunts in all situations and you should never take fleshborers when the spinefist is clearly a superior weapon.

Perhaps you mistook me for saying the spinefist is a better choice,

I never once stated either of the above things, I stated that the spine fist is a better weapon on a 1 to 1 basis. It has a higher damage output that the fleshborer, on a 1 to 1 basis, vs more commonly seen targets.

To make the spinefist a free upgrade would make it the "No brainer choice", it would break the internal balance (you know, that thing you guys keep harping on about with the carnifex vs the mawloc). The fact that the spinefist has a better damage potential against more enemys, therefore means it should be paid for.

To claim anything else is hypocrasy.

Untill you can get outside your little box of OMGNEWNIDBOOKFAIL for long enough to see that, your argument is invalid by principle.

Cartographer
28-03-2010, 22:04
To make the spinefist a free upgrade would make it the "No brainer choice", it would break the internal balance (you know, that thing you guys keep harping on about with the carnifex vs the mawloc). The fact that the spinefist has a better damage potential against more enemys, therefore means it should be paid for.


Except the points cost for the spinefists do not reflect their actual worth, making it essentially a downgrade on the unit despite being an upgrade for the model.

MasterDecoy
28-03-2010, 22:10
Except the points cost for the spinefists do not reflect their actual worth, making it essentially a downgrade on the unit despite being an upgrade for the model.

Well as there have been no 1/2 point upgrades for over a decade now, I guess your just out of luck hey?

EDIT: Actually to be perfectly honost I think they cost the exact amount of points they should. Point for poinnt most upgrades should perform about the same for their intended role (I.E a melta gun should work just as well as a lascannon point for point, but they have different drawbacks and characteristics so its kinda hard to mesure)

Eitherway, the point being, You should need to pay extra points to make a unit more effective. if you dont, whats the point of not upgrading, the downgraded version becomes pointless.

Untill you can come up with a reasonable answer as to why you shouldnt have to pay extra to upgrade a unit, then your argument remains invalid?

Cartographer
28-03-2010, 22:21
Well as there have been no 1/2 point upgrades for over a decade now, I guess your just out of luck hey?

True, but it all adds into the general "feel" of the codex not having been playtested properly. It should have been easy to spot the issue and do something about the discrepancy, improving spinefists to the point they're worth the upgrade cost for example.

For the record, I rate it as average. Some good ideas perhaps, poorly implemented, some gimickey units that look like they should work together well, but plenty of WTF :confused: options.

Balerion
28-03-2010, 23:26
I never once stated either of the above things, I stated that the spine fist is a better weapon on a 1 to 1 basis. It has a higher damage output that the fleshborer, on a 1 to 1 basis, vs more commonly seen targets.

I don't think anyone is arguing that. Furthermore, I don't think there is any point in arguing that, because it is an obscure topic that means nothing in isolation. We can compare an assault cannon to a bolter, but it's a fruitless endeavour because the true value of the weapons is wrapped up in other factors besides pure effectiveness (eg. their costs, the platforms on which the weapons reside, the weapons role:expected opposition, etc.) The effectiveness of a single weapon versus another single weapon means absolutely nothing as a standalone piece of data, because effectiveness is inextricably tied to points cost, among other things.

I believe the question we're trying to get to the bottom of is, "Are spinefists at all worthwhile?" and the answer remains "no". There is never any reason for anyone to field spinegaunts under the assumption that they are tactically advantageous over termagants.

Vaktathi
29-03-2010, 00:08
Untill you can come up with a reasonable answer as to why you shouldnt have to pay extra to upgrade a unit, then your argument remains invalid? If the cost doesn't reflect the increase in effectiveness, then the cost increase isn't warranted.

1pt per model is effectively adding an additional 20% of the base cost to the model. They certainly aren't inflicting 20% more wounds with that upgrade (which even if they did by itself doesn't warrant a 20% increase in cost), and it has no bearing on speed, survivability, or anything else. They aren't becoming 20% more effective with that upgrade.

horsa
29-03-2010, 00:18
I am somewhat new to playing Tyranids. Having read a substantial number of comments on the strengths and weaknesses of the new codex, I am still left wondering how it stacks up against the other 5th edition codices in tournaments. Are Tyranid players winning or doing very well in the larger tournaments or are IG, SM, IG dominating or what?

If Tyranid players are doing well, what is the focus of their army list?

ekiander
29-03-2010, 00:32
I am somewhat new to playing Tyranids. Having read a substantial number of comments on the strengths and weaknesses of the new codex, I am still left wondering how it stacks up against the other 5th edition codices in tournaments. Are Tyranid players winning or doing very well in the larger tournaments or are IG, SM, IG dominating or what?

If Tyranid players are doing well, what is the focus of their army list?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/03/observations-from-tournament-floor.html

Adepticon is probably the hardest of the hard core and it was made up of 1/3 IG players and IG won the Gladiator. From the article, there were very few Tyranids and none in the last rounds.

But really don't let that stop you from playing them, if you like the army you will get more enjoyment playing them then an army you don't like which is the cream of the crop.

From my friend that was in the tournament, the 40k tables were really boring. Basically everyone siting in thier mechs shooting at each other and barely moving. Too bad he also brang a mech SM list. Funny because I was his Tyranid practice and the one list he was worried about because of not knowing them but there were barely any there.

He's actually not a Warmachine fan, but saw some awesome games at those tables according to him.

horsa
29-03-2010, 00:44
I have a Tau army and have started building a Tyranid one for variety. I really like the models too. I have become sidetracked by WM. WM is a game where I can select almost any combination of models and still have an enjoyable game.

I am trying to build a Tyranid force alongside a Cryx one. Very difficult for me to do.

The comments made about the Adepticon tournament are rather interesting. I know several players who went to Adepticon, so it will be interesting to see what they think. Considering the Tyranid codex has only just come out, such a poor showing is a bit disappointing. I know IG gun lines and SW were major concerns for some Tyranid players.

Putty
29-03-2010, 01:01
I am somewhat new to playing Tyranids. Having read a substantial number of comments on the strengths and weaknesses of the new codex, I am still left wondering how it stacks up against the other 5th edition codices in tournaments. Are Tyranid players winning or doing very well in the larger tournaments or are IG, SM, IG dominating or what?

If Tyranid players are doing well, what is the focus of their army list?

That alone is its own giant can of worms.

I can tell you in general, its not top tier at the moment but then again, IG isn't really dominating because most people don't really know how to play mech armies.

Usually Eldar sneak in somewhere between because not many people know / understand Eldar rules and some other thing about Eldar players that is usually associated with Necron players.

I'll let you figure that out yourself. ;)

Comrade Penguin
29-03-2010, 01:20
I am somewhat new to playing Tyranids. Having read a substantial number of comments on the strengths and weaknesses of the new codex, I am still left wondering how it stacks up against the other 5th edition codices in tournaments. Are Tyranid players winning or doing very well in the larger tournaments or are IG, SM, IG dominating or what?

If Tyranid players are doing well, what is the focus of their army list?

I have yet to play against a pure guard or space wolf army in a one on one match. Tyranids will certainly struggle against IG, to the point that you are at a disadvantage simply for choosing to play nids. They have so many weapons that can instakill our mid size stuff, and enough high str low ap things that can reduce our monstrous creatures to ashes.

As for the SM codex... the majority of my games are against this codex. It is by far the weakest of the 5th edition dexs and I have yet to lose a single game against it. They pay around the same points for their basic marines, and don't get all of the bling that the spacewolves and blood angel marines get. The trickiest thing you will face in this army is the thunderhammer termies in a landraider, but some well placed zoans and a decently sized tarpit can nullify this threat.

What I take in my all comers:

Winged tyrant, hive guard, zoans, lots of hormagants (sometimes with toxin), a unit of genestealers, alpha trygon, single squad of termagants, one troop tervigon, and biovores.

Sometimes I take the doom, prime, and shooty warriors. I have been trending away from the warriors because they never kill a thing with their shooting (not even GEQ). I have stopped taking doom because he is way too broken. Last week I played a game where he destroyed 670 points worth of tau before being killed by the majority of the tau player's shooting. Against any army that is not mech, he is way too powerful for his points. The prime is awesome, I just don't use him often because I don't have a model for him and hate proxies.

azimaith
29-03-2010, 05:46
You are forgetting a few key things.

1) Chance with margin of error. Having a 2/3 chance of getting a favorable result is still just that. I am not going to turn this in to a stat's thread.

That doesn't change the fact that a unit costs points and thus points are vitally important. Its dishonest to claim a unit is great without figuring how much that unit costs into it. The point is that almost any army, with that many more points, could probably develop a unit that would do the same thing. I'm not forgetting anything.



2) I distinctly remember saying the phrase, "in the context of the army." So putting a unit solely against another unit is naive in my opinion. We don't fight in the vacuum of space (at least not in this game ;) ). Taking this into account, in the above 2v2 game it was a mix of 6 storm shields, 4 lightning claws and the man. I casted paroxysm on them from the swarmlord and preferred enemy on the swarmlord. He killed calgar, the stealers killed the claws, and the carnifex's killed the hammers, losing one in return. Again. "IN THE CONTEXT of the army." I am not going to want to fight a fair fight. The only good fight is the one in my favor that I win. We use the same principle in the military. 3:1 odds to achieve a crushing victory.

Well duh, who doesn't know that you always want to fight with overwhelming odds. Any units you kill are destroyed and the only thing you've lost is a turn with some units. But when we get into "in the context of the army." We get into an endlessly spiraling example with "Well then his lascannons would kill the swarmlord" then "Well the swarmlords tyrant guard eat the lascannon shots!" then "Well my vindicators destroy the entire squad!" Then "Well my dad can beat up your dad!"

There's nothing wrong with what you did from a tactical perspective, but you are being dishonest if you try to push that off as an example of the units being good because there is a massive points disparity.



3) I am not sure how people run their armies, but History has proven in real world, that skirmishers or screening units are the key to army survival. Always been that way with the Tyranids. Probably not going to change. If you run 3 Fex's in front of a raider, you deserved to be charged. With a 9-10" movement, taking the median of the dice, that is not all that slow. It is not the 20" charge range of the land raider and friends, but to deem it slow is silly.

Yeah, and the land raider can simply shock his way right through your screening unit you assault them. A functioning land raider is always more capable of delivering a charge than a carnifex because it can move through enemy models and it can move as fast as jump infantry.



*The other land raider already ate it and the contents of vulkan and his little band of brothers devoured to hormagaunts with adrenals and toxin sacs.

And?

ehlijen
29-03-2010, 06:10
I'm sorry ehlijen, I usually find myself agreeing with your posts but here I'm afraid you're just wrong and demonstrably so.
In a straight 1 to 1 comparison, the spinegaunt is better than the standard gaunt vs T3 and T6 (12.5% and 50% better respectively), equal vs T4 and worse vs T5 and T7 (25% and 100% worse respectively). However 1 to 1 does not take into account the points hike; at equal points (say 18 gaunts vs 15 spinegaunts) then the spinegaunts are worse vs T3, T4, T5 and T7 (by 6.25%, 16.66%, 37.5% and 100% respectively). They only come out on top vs T6 (by 25%).

This isn't to say it's not an upgrade, it's a marginal one and not worth 1 point per model.




If fearless were actually beneficial to the tyranids rather than being a painful reminder of the current flaws (IMO) in the combat system then you'd have a point. If it didn't fly in the face of the background (tyranid fleets exerting their influence across a system as soon as they enter it, billions of miles of deep space, but reduced to 60 feet or so on the tabletop???). If there were any indication it was included for a purpose other than: "they had it that way beforehand". If other armies didn't already have similar effects for free without the penalties (I'm looking at orks and marines as the biggest culprits here...), the list goes on as to why it's a bad thing.

If the spinegaunt is better 1v1 against the units most common target (ie units either has a realistic chance of hurting: T3 or 4), then it should cost more. The minimum price increase is one point. Frankly I don't think it's worth the whole point, but it's worth enough of it to warrant some increase. Without half points, it's the best they could do.

Background schmackgound. Synapse was created to give nids on the tabletop character. In a game, the table top is the entirety of the universe. Fearless is a great ability, but it does come at a cost which is appropriately shown now. Always rememeber: without fearless you could well loose the entire unit to sweeping advance! Synapse isn't just 'have free fearless' though. It's also 'here have something that is unique to your army and shows the character of your background in a visible manner. If it was just blanket fearless, nids'd just be bug like deamons. Leadership is supposed to matter and synapse creatures are supposed to matter. This allows both to do so. Protect your brain bugs or suffer the consequences.

azimaith
29-03-2010, 06:20
If the spinegaunt is better 1v1 against the units most common target (ie units either has a realistic chance of hurting: T3 or 4), then it should cost more. The minimum price increase is one point. Frankly I don't think it's worth the whole point, but it's worth enough of it to warrant some increase. Without half points, it's the best they could do.

Actually the best they could do is:
A: Downgrade the spinegaunt to the same level but for different purposes making it cost the same.
B: Upgrade the spineguant more making it worth 1 extra point.

It was the laziest they could do.



Background schmackgound. Synapse was created to give nids on the tabletop character. In a game, the table top is the entirety of the universe. Fearless is a great ability, but it does come at a cost which is appropriately shown now. Always rememeber: without fearless you could well loose the entire unit to sweeping advance! Synapse isn't just 'have free fearless' though. It's also 'here have something that is unique to your army and shows the character of your background in a visible manner. If it was just blanket fearless, nids'd just be bug like deamons. Leadership is supposed to matter and synapse creatures are supposed to matter. This allows both to do so. Protect your brain bugs or suffer the consequences.
Yeah, except fearless is a penalty without a worthwhile benefit. Yes, you could lose the squad from no-retreat. It wouldn't be a very big deal if the squads came with say, a normal leadership value because then you choose to take the risk of not.
Instead the values are artificially lowered to force synapse on you. If that's going to be the case synapse should be a rule that changes how your army fights, not something that slightly mitigates an unnecessary penalty.

Previous synapse did what it was supposed to do in 4th ed. It let otherwise mindless gaunts hold down enemy units but if they ever were out of it, they would flee toward it again. Now synapse is just "Hey, we won't penalize you as badly for playing tyranids if your in synapse range!" Tyranid models, for their cost, have unnaturally low leadership forcing synapse to be used by rendering models impotent or self-destructive without it, the old tyranid codex had models with appropriate leadership for their cost which was benefited by playing "in a fluffy way" by keeping them in synapse.

In short:
Old Synapse:
"If you stay within 12" of this object your dollars become 1 dollar and fifty cents. If you are out of it, you have a significant chance of them becoming 50 cents."

New Synapse:
If you are more than 12" away from this object your dollar becomes a negative dollar, you now owe me a dollar. If you are within 12" your dollar remains a dollar but I charge you 25 cents for being within 12 inches."

Balerion
29-03-2010, 06:36
If the spinegaunt is better 1v1 against the units most common target (ie units either has a realistic chance of hurting: T3 or 4), then it should cost more. The minimum price increase is one point. Frankly I don't think it's worth the whole point, but it's worth enough of it to warrant some increase. Without half points, it's the best they could do.

The increased effectiveness of spinefists versus T3 is negligible. Besides, to me, S4's ability to damage AV10 vehicles is enough of a factor that it would frequently be the *better* choice of the two even if they were the same price. I feel very strongly that spinefists wouldn't become an instant no-brainer if they were the same price as fleshborers. I would still want fleshborers versus Orks, Marines, CSM, Necrons, other Tyranids, and probably both types of Eldar.

I've seen countless desperate late-in-the-game moments where a S4 shooting attack has been a deciding factor in the outcome of the game (at the expense of a Land Speeder, War Walker, Vyper, rear armour, etc.). I would still go for the S4 insurance policy over the extra bite vs. T3 most of the time.

Draconian77
29-03-2010, 06:50
I don't understand that point of view ehlijen. Surely they could work Synapse into the book in a purely beneficial way? (Ld 9/10 Stubborn within 12" for example) That would both fit the background and make the Tyranid players happy. As long as "No Retreat" remains in the game, Tyranids will have the worst Leadership/Morale rules out of any 40k force. (Stay in Synapse range and have your infantry wiped out by NR or venture out of Synapse range and have your broods act in generally inopportune ways.)

Vineas
29-03-2010, 07:03
That's been my issue with vanilla Marines and I'm glad to see it changed in BA. I'm talking about upgrades for free that are better. I personally still don't see the benefit to LC's over TH's. Yeah you get more attacks and reroll to wounds but most opponents are going to send the nastiest squads they can at the terminators because, well, nothing else will cut it.

Facing Eldar with Banshees. LC's are worthless as odds are good that you'll at some point have to fight Banshees and guess who wins that one pretty easily? 5+ inv is craptacular if you have to make lots of saves (and with doom Banshees kill Terminators better than non-PF marines.

Stealers would eat 5 LC Terminators; Trygon, Screamer-killer would do it as well. Other Marines could take the same squad and then it's a matter of luck (or take 5 TH/SS and laugh as the LC's bounce off harmlessly and than smash the stupid LC's asunder.

Tau have no CC answer to 5 Assault Terminators but plenty of Ap2 and 1 guns that can move and shoot and so once Terminators are on foot they are easy prey (Tau have the best anti-tank in the game and lots of it).

Daemons have Bloodletters, Fiends, Juggernaughts, nearly any of the GD (GuO would struggle but he'll also tie LC terminators up for a long time), DP's, SG's (S4 LC's have no chance in hell against an AV13 vehicle).

So really. IMO the TH/SS is a no brainer and I can't fathom why people mix them up? You strike simultaneous to I4, strike before Orks and IG (who won't really frighten termies that much [the IG, not the orks]), and go first against Tau and Kroot.

For no extra points in cost I'll happily take the 3+ vs 5+ Inv. Save, 1 less attack but hitting at S8 (which IMO is universally better weapon and also reduces anything that survives to I1) because IME anything designed to kill Terminators will strike first regardless (I've had 10 Zerkers kill 4 out of 5 LC terminators before the Terminators even struck. Guess who won that combat? It wasn't the last terminator standing).

BA pay a few points more for an upgrade, that while has a FEW drawbacks over LC's, is still a no brainer choice IMO.

There is a reason Spinefist was better than the FB. It didn't cost any extra iirc but was better (same cost as FB I think).

The SF might cost 20% more and maybe be 5% more effective vs some things but unless GW starts doing decimal points/fractions of points you can't do 5% of of a Termagants cost and have a non-fractional number. Cheaper spinefists or same costs SF would only once again make the SF the no-brainer choice.

Still shake my head at this conspiracy that GW did that to make people buy more Termagants. You want to min-max than be prepared to have to change your army. So far yet no men in black suits and dark shades have come to my door telling me "Buy more Termagants if you want to live."

Lazarus15
29-03-2010, 07:07
That doesn't change the fact that a unit costs points and thus points are vitally important. Its dishonest to claim a unit is great without figuring how much that unit costs into it. The point is that almost any army, with that many more points, could probably develop a unit that would do the same thing. I'm not forgetting anything.


Well duh, who doesn't know that you always want to fight with overwhelming odds. Any units you kill are destroyed and the only thing you've lost is a turn with some units. But when we get into "in the context of the army." We get into an endlessly spiraling example with "Well then his lascannons would kill the swarmlord" then "Well the swarmlords tyrant guard eat the lascannon shots!" then "Well my vindicators destroy the entire squad!" Then "Well my dad can beat up your dad!"

There's nothing wrong with what you did from a tactical perspective, but you are being dishonest if you try to push that off as an example of the units being good because there is a massive points disparity.


Yeah, and the land raider can simply shock his way right through your screening unit you assault them. A functioning land raider is always more capable of delivering a charge than a carnifex because it can move through enemy models and it can move as fast as jump infantry.



And?

Points for a large part are irrelevant if the unit impacts the game favorably for your army. VP's are still used every now and then, but not nearly as often as objective based games, and killpoints. The funny thing is that Carnifex's in the configuration are mainly for killing opponents softer targets, or charging multiple units because they usually have done or do enough damage to win combat pretty soundly.

You also did miss the point of even against one of the harder units to kill we have nearly the exact same odds, except I have more of a buffer zone, then what you have coming out of your landraider. That is an ideal charge/fight for you, not me.

When I put in, "in the context of the army," and your reply misses that the first time, then I bring it back up, don't bring a nonchalant "duh" into it.

I DON'T CARE ABOUT POINT DIFFERENCES. WHAT MATTERS IS WHAT THE UNIT BRINGS TO THE TABLE FOR THE ARMY. Marines are already a lower model count army, you throw a land raider in with a deathstar squad you are looking at usually around 7-8 hundred points with characters. My marine army, I run Lysander, Librarian, and 6 termies (5 with TH/SH). In the context of the army, Carnifex's would blow to fight, because of all the attacks they deliver at S9 (instant killing most characters) reducing you to your invul, AFTER the gribblies are finished whittling you down.

WHO COULD GIVE A RAT'S A$$ about what 3 carnifex's would do in the vacuum of space. (again no pun intended)

Not getting into the fundamentals of tyranid stragedy and how to screen your creatures, where to run in relation to your opponents force, or what targets to take out with what. Suffice to say, although they are not in my main force, they are indeed in my secondary force and contrary to my own expectations, they have performed phenomenally.

There is no dishonesty at all. They work great, in the context of the army. Are there gonna be armies out there that will be tougher to fight with them, oh yes indeed. But with 65-80 other models, 6-9 of them are either T6 multiple wounds or 3+ invul, yeah good luck if you are going after the "slow moving, paper mache armored, daffodil toting carnifex's." :rolleyes:

Oh and new synapse is alright, seeing as how they lowered the points cost on all the other gribblies such as genestealers, hormagaunts, and gargoyles. That should increase the number you kill, reduce the number you lose, and still allow you the affordability of more of all of those than in the old book. Chalk me up for the new synapse, as the old would be more game breaking than it already is.

Have you thought about trying a "glass half full" approach to the new book? The way you make it sound is that 2nd ed squats could bench press genestealers while pissing napalm over hormagaunts.

Vineas
29-03-2010, 07:13
Hehe, I'm going to model my carnifexes carrying easter egg baskets in their talons and laurels of daffodils on their tusks. :)

Paint them pink too with white dots and then I'll laugh as they launch 3 bio shots, hit at I4 with 15 attacks rerolling misses and make that LR/5 Man terminator squad disappear. :)

Balerion
29-03-2010, 07:43
The SF might cost 20% more and maybe be 5% more effective vs some things but unless GW starts doing decimal points/fractions of points you can't do 5% of of a Termagants cost and have a non-fractional number. Cheaper spinefists or same costs SF would only once again make the SF the no-brainer choice.


Except that this is totally up for debate.

Your post doesn't address my contention that Fleshborers are the optimal choice against a significant number of armies.

Any time you're up against a foe that sports T4 across the board you're indisputably better off with fleshborers. Same damage output as spinefists, plus the ability to deal with AV10. It helps that there are armies whose bread and butter are T4/AV10. Against Marines and Orks it is the fleshborer that is the no-brainer, even costed the same as a spinefist. It is also superior against the mixed toughness landscape of CSM, and in Tyranid vs. Tyranid battles (as long as you expect to see Genestealers/Warriors/Raveners/Zoanthropes/Lictors/etc. and not a pure horde of gribblies).

Znail
29-03-2010, 09:20
Yeah, except fearless is a penalty without a worthwhile benefit. Yes, you could lose the squad from no-retreat. It wouldn't be a very big deal if the squads came with say, a normal leadership value because then you choose to take the risk of not.
Instead the values are artificially lowered to force synapse on you. If that's going to be the case synapse should be a rule that changes how your army fights, not something that slightly mitigates an unnecessary penalty.

Previous synapse did what it was supposed to do in 4th ed. It let otherwise mindless gaunts hold down enemy units but if they ever were out of it, they would flee toward it again. Now synapse is just "Hey, we won't penalize you as badly for playing tyranids if your in synapse range!" Tyranid models, for their cost, have unnaturally low leadership forcing synapse to be used by rendering models impotent or self-destructive without it, the old tyranid codex had models with appropriate leadership for their cost which was benefited by playing "in a fluffy way" by keeping them in synapse.

In short:
Old Synapse:
"If you stay within 12" of this object your dollars become 1 dollar and fifty cents. If you are out of it, you have a significant chance of them becoming 50 cents."

New Synapse:
If you are more than 12" away from this object your dollar becomes a negative dollar, you now owe me a dollar. If you are within 12" your dollar remains a dollar but I charge you 25 cents for being within 12 inches."

I strongly dissagree that Fearless has no benifits. Even with LD10 so do I rather have Fearless then not. A few no-retreat saves doesnt hurt that much and if you take alot of no-retreat then you would most likely flee if you were not Fearless. Fearless also keeps you from running away under fire, for no downside at all.

Just because Fearless used to be even better so doesnt that make it bad right now. The large discount for the little runts more then make up for that change and this doesnt even consider that everyone else also got a harder time staying around after losing melee combats.

Vaktathi
29-03-2010, 09:39
The issue with Fearless is that it is amazing on MC's or very tough troops, if they lose combat it's typically not by much.

It's punitive however on weeny troops that are designed to lose lots of models, as they will lose far more models and subsequent striking power than the more elite/heavy units will to No Retreat.

A combat where 10 plague marines start (230pts), kill 2 of an enemy, and lose 4 (92pts) isn't going to result in a huge No Retreat factor (only 2 saves for a potential of 46pts with a 3+ followed by a 4+) and likely will suffer no losses. 215pts of Orks in a similar combat losing combat by the same points margin (46, round to 48 to make math easy) will lose 7-8 additional models through no-retreat, a significant handicapping of combat capability.

EDIT: TL: DR Fearless is great on units with awesome saves, fearless can be more of a liability than a boon for units with crappy saves.

Fixer
29-03-2010, 10:05
Crazy thought.

You think it's possible that CRUDDACE! designed the new Tyranid codex with only fighting his beloved Imperial Guard in mind?

Think about it, if all you ever faced with your Tyranids were Imperial guard, the spinegaunt price increase might make sense. Deepstriking Pyrovores might be moderately useful.

Znail
29-03-2010, 10:41
The issue with Fearless is that it is amazing on MC's or very tough troops, if they lose combat it's typically not by much.

It's punitive however on weeny troops that are designed to lose lots of models, as they will lose far more models and subsequent striking power than the more elite/heavy units will to No Retreat.

A combat where 10 plague marines start (230pts), kill 2 of an enemy, and lose 4 (92pts) isn't going to result in a huge No Retreat factor (only 2 saves for a potential of 46pts with a 3+ followed by a 4+) and likely will suffer no losses. 215pts of Orks in a similar combat losing combat by the same points margin (46, round to 48 to make math easy) will lose 7-8 additional models through no-retreat, a significant handicapping of combat capability.

EDIT: TL: DR Fearless is great on units with awesome saves, fearless can be more of a liability than a boon for units with crappy saves.

On the other hand, ld -8 check would be even worse for the Orks. Units with crappy saves tend to suffer more from no-retreat, but they also tend to run away if not Fearless.


Crazy thought.

You think it's possible that CRUDDACE! designed the new Tyranid codex with only fighting his beloved Imperial Guard in mind?

Think about it, if all you ever faced with your Tyranids were Imperial guard, the spinegaunt price increase might make sense. Deepstriking Pyrovores might be moderately useful.

Hmm, Pyrovores with a Spore might be pretty usefull against entrenched enemies. Its pretty interesting that enemies in cover is a notable weakness for Tyranids, but there is no lack of options to deal with it, they are just not the most popular options in the new codex. But it should be worth fielding atleast one of those as it gets rid of a weakness for the army.

TheShadowCow
29-03-2010, 10:52
On the other hand, ld -8 check would be even worse for the Orks. Units with crappy saves tend to suffer more from no-retreat, but they also tend to run away if not Fearless.

Indeed, and at least the Fearless element gives you some certainty as to what's going to happen. It's not like you can't work your way around it (Bio-morphing smaller units up to inflict more kills, or simply taking enough of them to absorb the No Retreat! damage for a turn).

Huge units of non-killy Termagants and Hormagaunts are only really worthwhile for tar-pitting a unit for a turn or two anyway, so complaining about their reduced killing power seems like a bit of a phantom problem. I for one haven't really noticed that much of a change since No Retreat turned up. Sure, I lose a few more Termagants in the round before my Genestealers, Warriors or Carnifex joins in the melee, but the unit I wanted to eat is still stuck there. The tar-pitting unit has never been the killer in itself.

Cartographer
29-03-2010, 11:31
Indeed, and at least the Fearless element gives you some certainty as to what's going to happen. It's not like you can't work your way around it (Bio-morphing smaller units up to inflict more kills, or simply taking enough of them to absorb the No Retreat! damage for a turn).

Huge units of non-killy Termagants and Hormagaunts are only really worthwhile for tar-pitting a unit for a turn or two anyway, so complaining about their reduced killing power seems like a bit of a phantom problem. I for one haven't really noticed that much of a change since No Retreat turned up. Sure, I lose a few more Termagants in the round before my Genestealers, Warriors or Carnifex joins in the melee, but the unit I wanted to eat is still stuck there. The tar-pitting unit has never been the killer in itself.

Except the tar-pitting unit is a liability to any other unit that you throw into the combat; your opponent would have to be a fool to even bother targetting the genestealers, warriors or carnifex since they can heap every attack that they can muster onto the tar-pit and No Retreat will "magically" morph wounds onto the supporting unit. Your only hope is that your supporting unit hits so hard that it can wipe out whatever you're tar-pitting.

It's not a problem with the Tyranid codex this, it's a flaw in the main 40k rules, and one that could easily have been fixed by simply working out leadership modifiers on an individual basis for each unit involved in the combat rather than a blanket modifier that applies to all.

Easy example - 4 combats occur between 4 IG squads and 4 Marine combat squads.
Combat A: 2 IG casualties 0 Marine casualties
Combat B: 3 IG casualties 1 Marine casualty
Combat C: 3 IG casualties 1 Marine casualty
Combat D: 0 IG casualties 1 Marine casualty
In each combat A to C the IG lost by 2 and need to pass a Ld test on a 6 or flee and face a chance of being wiped out. In combat D the IG win.

Now, pile all 4 combats into 1 big one, with exactly the same dice rolls. The IG lose by 5 and all 4 squads have to roll under 3 or flee.

Tyranids just suffer from it the most due to the focus of the army being close combat and the whole army being fearless (assuming you've gotten your way on the way in).

azimaith
29-03-2010, 11:49
I strongly dissagree that Fearless has no benifits. Even with LD10 so do I rather have Fearless then not. A few no-retreat saves doesnt hurt that much and if you take alot of no-retreat then you would most likely flee if you were not Fearless. Fearless also keeps you from running away under fire, for no downside at all.

Its not a few no retreat saves. Its about twice the wounds you take and its A direct disincentive to use combined arms assaults that tyranids were known for.
Case in point, Grey hunters get charged by 15 gaunts, one carnifex.
Grey hunters throw everything into the gaunts because they know it is the superior method of hurting the carnifex (The stupidity is showing itself already, you want to hurt the carnifex? You should not attack him then.)

30 attacks (counter attack), 19.8 hits, 13.08 wounds, 10.98 wounds (11 wounds). Ow, it hurts, but its what we expect. Carnifex and gaunts were striking at the same time, 3.13 dead from the fex, 1.67 from the gaunts. That means about 5 dead wolves. 11-5=6 wounds of no retreat.
Now the carnifex suffers 2 failed no retreat saves and the gaunts are wiped out entirely.

Now look at that same situation, this time only the carnifex charges.
Wolves inflict 1.11 failed saves on the carnifex and the carnifex deals 3 wounds to them.

Holy illogic Batman! The carnifex suffers less wounds when unsupported with less points at the same unit! No retreat is punitive and unnecessary for Tyranids. The carnifex is much worse off when he is charging alongside gaunts to support them than he is charging in on his own. This is stupid.



Just because Fearless used to be even better so doesnt that make it bad right now. The large discount for the little runts more then make up for that change and this doesnt even consider that everyone else also got a harder time staying around after losing melee combats.
No, its bad because it makes it worse to use the gaunts what they're supposed to be there for. You want to tarpit with them? Great, unless of course you want to charge in there with a "hammer" unit, in which case your better off not tarpitting at all.

Units are better off when they fight on their own rather than fighting with a swarm of gaunts, you get worse in a fight by using more points when using gaunts than you do alone. This is stupid.

Znail
29-03-2010, 11:52
Except the tar-pitting unit is a liability to any other unit that you throw into the combat; your opponent would have to be a fool to even bother targetting the genestealers, warriors or carnifex since they can heap every attack that they can muster onto the tar-pit and No Retreat will "magically" morph wounds onto the supporting unit. Your only hope is that your supporting unit hits so hard that it can wipe out whatever you're tar-pitting.

Thay may be true for the Carnifex, but not for the Genesteales or Warriors. Targeting the tarpit may improve the combat resolution and potentialy cause no-retreat wounds, but the fact that you lost the cheaper tarpit units to the normal attacks means they you will lose fewer Genestealers or Warriors in the end anyway.

You also need to remember that this 'problem' is around even without Fearless as combat results matters for normal units too. If the Genestealers or Warriors might have run away due to losing the combat instead, incidentaly most likely causing them to be gunned down in the opponents turn as they wouldnt be locked in combat (asuming they didnt botch the flee roll and got run down).


11-5=6 wounds of no retreat.
Now the carnifex suffers 2 failed no retreat saves and the gaunts are wiped out entirely.

And without Fearless you would need to roll snake eyes or flee, followed by most likely death due to the Carnifex I of 1. I think you make a poor case for Fearless being only a dissadvantage.

azimaith
29-03-2010, 11:57
Actually, its still a problem.
It takes about 2.73 marine attacks to put down a gaunt. Lets say three.

It takes about 6.06 marine attacks to drop a genestealer. So 6.

Thus if the gaunts give away 2 no retreat wounds you not only lose 2 gaunts but lose an additional 1.32 genestealers. Killing genestealers by killing gaunts is as effective as simply targeting the genestealers and more beneficial. About the only time you'd do the opposite and target the genestealers is when your being charged in cover.

Dunklezahn
29-03-2010, 11:58
I was away for the weekend hence why this is several pages late.


No offense, but do you actually play tyranids? Comparing Psychic Scream and Aura of Despair is like comparing a Ferari to a Geo Metro. Both are technically automobiles but one is superior in practically every way. Psychic scream affected everything within 18" constantly and was available on something like 45 point models. Aura of despair you use during the assault phase, requires a psychic test, and only affects 12".

It also goes away before your turn comes around thus you can't actually gain any benefit from it on any of the abilities on your turn (not that GW knows that). It also comes on a model that's 60 points base and requires at least 116 points to even be used.

Psychic scream was overpowered, anyone whose fought a "barbed strangler/scream" list can tell you that. But aura of despair is just awful..

Yes and have done for a while now, so your complaint is you how have to use their shattered leadership against them in the assault phase not shooting? What a wierd ability for *Genestealers* to have... Hell two broodlords mean even a 1 point victory will break Ld10 down to 7 meaning any above average roll breaks them, yes terrible. Just because it's not for abusing alongside pinning and devourers to make massive chunks of their army -3 to 5 LD anymore doesn't make it terrible. Remeber that with a stealers Initiative a fleeing foe is most often a dead foe.

Also your old "choir" was on a model floating by it's lonesome as Plasma fodder, this one is untargetable within a unit. Yes it costs more, but the unit, Genestealers and a Broodlord are also a lot more deadly than the floating brain and are troops.


3 biovores dropping pie plates, not really, three biovores is somewhat wasteful. They fire as a barrage weapon meaning that if you actually hit its very likely you won't do anything with the other templates as they are placed to the outer edge of the center template. A couple biovores is fine... until they scatter onto your own troops of course...

Not everyone is using 5-10 man space marine squads there are such things as 30 strong boyz mobs, blobbed guard infantry, other nids, large kroot packs etc. 3 Pie plates from Biovores can really ruin their day, cover or no and those large squads are the ones that will break your charge due to the number of attacks, not 10 marines who think they're a CC unit because they have 2 attacks. As you get closer you may have to fire at the back of units, no big loss, reduces your casualties a bit but it's better than not firing. Small elite units you may want to hold off against yeah, but not everyone is.


If they happen to be where you need them. The tyrannofex is not long ranged (and is freaking expensive) for just getting units out of cover and it doesn't move very fast. You better hope that target just so happens to be in the tyrannofex's path and that you've just got a land raiders worth of points hanging around just in case. A better suggestion is to not buy the tyrannofex and just spend his points on other things so that when they assault they have enough models to still win.

Effective 18" range for full effect, couple more inches if you point the template forward, and it's not like it's there just in case, it's still going to splash plenty if wounds around whether they are in cover or not, it just so happens that troops hiding in cover are especially vulnerable if they are relying on that cover for a decent save.
Thats not to say buying 18 extra genestealers or 40 extra gaunts to soak the cover hits won't work but there are options and they are better in different curcumstances such as whether your being shot by a Lascannon or a flamer.

Nids were never going to compete at top level, 5th Ed favours mech and nids are an army almost without transport, but thats a failing of the core rules not the codex. It's a codex with some overpriced units that works fine for your average game with a large number of options. Some of the more broken ones have been toned down, like the choir and Nidzilla and it's actually a *shock horror* balanced codex. The problem lies in other lists with combinations and abilities that clearly weren't playtested or even considered which anyone at a win at all costs tourney will exploit a trend which, funny that, seems largely focussed on the cash cow imperial armies and why I would never go to a tournement as choosing the right army let alone list weighs too heavily. It's always the same examples people use to show the weakness of the nids but it's never that said combo is way ahead of the curve.

On the up side I agree with you that Lictors got stupid rules and that charging an MC into a combat with Gaunts against elite foes is a bad idea and that does suck, so thats something, but once again, that last one is a core rule failing and who knows how assaults will work next edition.

Draconian77
29-03-2010, 12:00
You also need to remember that this 'problem' is around even without Fearless as combat results matters for normal units too. If the Genestealers or Warriors might have run away due to losing the combat instead, incidentaly most likely causing them to be gunned down in the opponents turn as they wouldnt be locked in combat (asuming they didnt botch the flee roll and got run down).

That's not accurate...

Znail, if "No Retreat" didn't exist then anything within Synapse range would be Fearless and hence couldn't possibly flee. Synapse was a beneficial rule without No Retreat. Now it's just a needless penalty.
It's a flaw with the Core rules rather than the Tyranid book though.

Znail
29-03-2010, 12:09
Actually, its still a problem.
It takes about 2.73 marine attacks to put down a gaunt. Lets say three.

It takes about 6.06 marine attacks to drop a genestealer. So 6.

Thus if the gaunts give away 2 no retreat wounds you not only lose 2 gaunts but lose an additional 1.32 genestealers. Killing genestealers by killing gaunts is as effective as simply targeting the genestealers and more beneficial. About the only time you'd do the opposite and target the genestealers is when your being charged in cover.

You are asuming that you wont cause any casualties yourself. Only the wounds on the gaunts that is in excess of what you do to them will cause no-retreat saves. Most opponents will actualy lose when charged by both gaunts and Genstealers, so might not even manage to cause any no-retreat saves even when targeting the gaunts.


That's not accurate...

Znail, if "No Retreat" didn't exist then anything within Synapse range would be Fearless and hence couldn't possibly flee. Synapse was a beneficial rule without No Retreat. Now it's just a needless penalty.
It's a flaw with the Core rules rather than the Tyranid book though.

But now you are comparing with how things used to be, not with how things actualy are. Its true that "No Retreat" made it harder for units to tarpit. But at the same time so was the same change made to units that are not Fealess. So its harder for everyone to tarpit and Fearless is still an advantage compared to not having it. Remember that for everytime you cry over taking no-retreat saves so are you as likely to laugh after overrunning an opponent that breaks. It was a realy needed rule change too as before so was it a pretty common tactic to assault opponents, not because you was good in close combat, but because it was a less dangerous place to be.

Draconian77
29-03-2010, 12:14
And for the sake of argument Azimaith you should probably stop using Carnifexes in your examples, seeing as how most (but not all) Tyranid players are using Trygons these days. Throwing the Ws3, I1 model into combat is a bad idea with or without the Gaunts...

azimaith
29-03-2010, 12:24
No I'm not. Your better off charging with more genestealers than with gaunts and genestealers.


SAme squad at 150 pts vs its equivalent with 10 gaunts, 7 genestealers.
Genestealers inflict about 4 wounds, gaunts drop 1, 6 space wolves strike at the gaunts, killing 6.67. Genestealers suffer 2 no retreat wounds, lose a genestealer, gaunts lose another 2 gaunts.

Alone that same squad would be 4 kills from the stealers with 3 losses, meaning they win combat by one.
The points difference being 49 points lost with gaunts ant 42 points lost without (and losing combat).

If you want gaunts to function you'd need to spend more points on killing units. In that case you could just skip the gaunts and get more of the killing unit and not suffer the problem. Its like saying "If you want to have a car with brakes you'll have to take out your current brakes, set them on fire and dump then in a ditch, buy new brakes, and make sure those brakes are more expensive." Anyone with any sense will just say "Well i'll just keep the brakes i've got on now."

The very fact that a carnifex is worse off charging supported by its smaller brethren is indicative enough of the problem Drac.
Trygon, fine, the trygon kills 5.19 (5) and the gaunts kill 2.
The space wolves then kill 11 gaunts. All the gaunts are destroyed, trygon suffers 4 no retreat wounds, loses one wound.

Trygon alone, gon kills 5, SW inflict .83 or one wound. You're still worse off with the Trygon with the gaunts. Your basically worse off with almost any large creature and gaunts assaulting together and even with smaller creatures they're a solid liability. Outside of massive point differentials gaunts are just a good way to hurt yourself due to no retreat rules.

Gaunts are golden until you've got to assault into combat alongside them. About the only thing I could seriously see using gaunts to do when being "tarpits" is either
1: Tying up a unit you do not plan on assaulting until the gaunts are all, or mostly dead.
2: Sitting at close range and shooting and not assaulting hoping to suck up fire when your unit arrives. Even then, they'll at least move back.

Probably the best use of them would be to move your gaunts past the enemy unit and spread them out to the maximum extent to prevent them from moving very far. (Or even encircling them with gaunts). Anything to prevent them from doing anything in the movement phase outside of actually assaulting them if you've got a heavy hitter on the way.

Draconian77
29-03-2010, 12:35
But now you are comparing with how things used to be, not with how things actualy are.

Maybe so, but your example of Tyranid units fleeing instead of suffering "No Retreat" wounds wasn't really realistic, seeing as how we are either in Synapse range (tarpit/NR) or outside it. (Fleeing) We cannot then be within Synapse range, not taking NR wounds and Fleeing at the same time. So assuming NR didn't exist, it would be as I wrote it.


Its true that "No Retreat" made it harder for units to tarpit. But at the same time so was the same change made to units that are not Fealess. So its harder for everyone to tarpit and Fearless is still an advantage compared to not having it.

I disagree with that. As others have pointed out, Fearless is an advantage for moderately tough infantry. For something weeny like a Gaunt, it's essentially a penalty.


Remember that for everytime you cry over taking no-retreat saves so are you as likely to laugh after overrunning an opponent that breaks.

I find that in my games this is a rare occurence. The cheap Gaunts will rarely sweep (heck, they rarely charge...) because they will rarely win and the heavy hitters (like the Trygons/Tyrants) will simplify things by killing everything that they are fighting. :D


It was a realy needed rule change too as before so was it a pretty common tactic to assault opponents, not because you was good in close combat, but because it was a less dangerous place to be.

Again, as a Tyranid player, a combat is always where I want to be in the first place though... The difference between this edition and the last edition is that now my Gaunts are penalised for assaulting and losing, but Gaunt rules themselves were surely not written with winning combats in mind.

I personally didn't see any problem with 4th editions "charging to deny yourself from getting shot next turn" system.

azimaith
29-03-2010, 12:41
I don't get your last statement drac. "I don't see any problem with charging to deny yourself getting shot next turn."

Are you referring to gaunts? Because honestly, often times the exact same situation as if you charge. The only difference is do you take the hammer unit with you.

Depending on the unit you are charging, obviously, I would rather send a hammer unit in on its own without gaunts and keep the gaunts standing around to get shot, unless the unit I am charging would require those extra gaunt attacks to win that combat/the hammer unit would die against them anyhow.

If a trygon can handle itself with a unit of space marines with a melta and multi-melta why charge the gaunts at all? Wouldn't it be better to just try and move the gaunts to a point where they restrict enemy movement without assaulting?

Draconian77
29-03-2010, 13:09
It was an unclear statment and has since been edited to include the "4th edition" part. :D

Most of the Gaunt squads in my army have been relegated to a screen, useful for blocking both shots and assaults. They are moderately effective in this role, but this isn't how I or (I would hope) any other Tyranid player wanted to use them. We want to charge and then slowly wear down our opponents unit with our superior numbers, or at least throw them into combat alongside a heavy hitter for maximum carnage. 5th edition and the new 5th edition Tyranid codex don't support this playstyle. It's as simple as that really.

Znail
29-03-2010, 13:23
Maybe so, but your example of Tyranid units fleeing instead of suffering "No Retreat" wounds wasn't really realistic, seeing as how we are either in Synapse range (tarpit/NR) or outside it. (Fleeing) We cannot then be within Synapse range, not taking NR wounds and Fleeing at the same time. So assuming NR didn't exist, it would be as I wrote it.

A Tyranid unit isnt automaticly fleeing because it is outside of Synapse. First you may have been inside of Synapse at the start of the turn and later moved outside and assaulted. You may also have made the IB check while outside of Synapse.

But I was actualy simply comparing Fearless with non-Fearless. That Tyranids have additional downsides from being outside of Synapse is not directly related to Fearless being good or bad.

Draconian77
29-03-2010, 13:48
A Tyranid unit isnt automaticly fleeing because it is outside of Synapse. First you may have been inside of Synapse at the start of the turn and later moved outside and assaulted. You may also have made the IB check while outside of Synapse.

Well, considering that we were discussing the pros and cons of Fearless+losing a combat...then yes, you are either holding your ground with no penalty(4th edition), dying(5th edition NR) or fleeing(5th edition, outside of Synapse range). You don't have the Leadership to get beaten outside of Synapse range and hold very often.


But I was actualy simply comparing Fearless with non-Fearless. That Tyranids have additional downsides from being outside of Synapse is not directly related to Fearless being good or bad.

You can not realistically compare Fearless Tyranids to non-Fearless Tyranids though. You can't really say that without Synapse (and hence Fearless) that the Tyranids would flee from combat as the army isn't set up to work like that. (low Ld across the board). If we didn't have our current Fearless rule then we would have some other Synapse based Ld rule. For the sake of comparison I simply chose 4th editions Fearless rule.

Now, I guess that leads us to the question of have whether or not a Tyranid player would have the current Synapse/IB rules or simply normal Ld values and normal Ld rules. Personally, I would prefer the normal Ld rules in this edition. The MC's would still be Fearless and the Gaunts would still be terrible at doing anything combat related, but at least you wouldn't need to concern yourself with IB.

Dunklezahn
29-03-2010, 13:57
I'd rather my gaunts stayed fearless in Synapse, big squads of gaunts getting run down because they lost combat doesn't work for me, I'd rather they took a few extra dead.

It would make gaunts largely useless against power armour where losing a handful of gaunts per MEQ over the space of 2 turns can be beneficial. Without synapse they would lose the initial fight by several points and have a decent chance of getting run down, even if there's still twice as many of you as the enemy.

No retreat hurts but I'd still rather have it than a boosted LD and hope my gaunts don't get beaten too badly, as they inevitably do.

azimaith
29-03-2010, 14:08
By the same coin wouldn't you prefer to be shot in the leg than shot in the chest? A penalty or a worse penalty for playing is hardly an incentive.

LususNaturae
29-03-2010, 14:14
Fearless isn't a drawback if you don't use gaunts. Of course, then it's like you're not even playing 'nids...

Znail
29-03-2010, 14:58
Well, considering that we were discussing the pros and cons of Fearless+losing a combat...then yes, you are either holding your ground with no penalty(4th edition), dying(5th edition NR) or fleeing(5th edition, outside of Synapse range). You don't have the Leadership to get beaten outside of Synapse range and hold very often.
Ah, but you are not automaticly already beaten in combat because you are outside of Synapse. The battle in question may be the first one since you ended up outside Synapse.


You can not realistically compare Fearless Tyranids to non-Fearless Tyranids though. You can't really say that without Synapse (and hence Fearless) that the Tyranids would flee from combat as the army isn't set up to work like that. (low Ld across the board). If we didn't have our current Fearless rule then we would have some other Synapse based Ld rule. For the sake of comparison I simply chose 4th editions Fearless rule.

Now, I guess that leads us to the question of have whether or not a Tyranid player would have the current Synapse/IB rules or simply normal Ld values and normal Ld rules. Personally, I would prefer the normal Ld rules in this edition. The MC's would still be Fearless and the Gaunts would still be terrible at doing anything combat related, but at least you wouldn't need to concern yourself with IB.

Hmm, Synapse(Fearless) and IB or neither? Thats a good question. I actualy think Fearless and IB comes out slightly ahead, atleast unless Tyranids are given much greater LD values then right now. Termagants would be pretty wortless as they would most likely flee or be pinned after taking fire. Genestealers would still be good without Fearless thou. Snipers pinning a Carnifex or Trygon would be rather anoying. They would also be at great risk if they end up fleeing.